Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-24 Thread Ray Bellis
Absolutely! Ray Sent from my iPhone On 23 May 2014, at 16:47, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: I've been talking privately with some knowledgable httpbis folks about having a special joint session at IETF 90 where we can focus on this topic and hopefully come to a mutual

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-24 Thread Florian Weimer
* Mark Andrews: ENAME could be used immediately once the authoritative servers for the zone support it. It would just be insecure until validators catch up. Uhm. Why insecure and not bogus? ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-23 Thread Ray Bellis
On 21 May 2014, at 11:15, Saku Ytti s...@ytti.fi wrote: Any opinions on SVCINFO[0]. I was really big fan of SRV until I read the draft, it made really compelling arguments to me. It looks interesting. I had a long conversation last night with Martin Thomson, editor of the HTTP/2.0 draft and

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-23 Thread Saku Ytti
On (2014-05-23 08:30 +), Ray Bellis wrote: I've made him aware of the update to Mark's HTTP SRV draft, but there appears to be a problem that SVCINFO addresses that SRV doesn't, namely declaration (or discovery) of which version of the protocol is supported by the endpoint. ACK. We have

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-23 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 23, 2014, at 4:30 AM, Ray Bellis ray.bel...@nominet.org.uk wrote: Given that the CNAME at the Apex problem appears to be mostly (entirely?) an HTTP-related problem, it seems to me we ought to be engaging more with HTTPbis to help them come up with a solution that's mutually acceptable

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-23 Thread Joe Abley
On 23 May 2014, at 11:47, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: On May 23, 2014, at 4:30 AM, Ray Bellis ray.bel...@nominet.org.uk wrote: Given that the CNAME at the Apex problem appears to be mostly (entirely?) an HTTP-related problem, it seems to me we ought to be engaging more with

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-23 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:47:17AM -0400, Ted Lemon wrote: I've been talking privately with some knowledgable httpbis folks about having a special joint session at IETF 90 where we can focus on this topic and hopefully come to a mutual understanding of the problems and opportunities.

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-23 Thread Tim Wicinski
On 5/23/14, 11:47 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: On May 23, 2014, at 4:30 AM, Ray Bellis ray.bel...@nominet.org.uk wrote: Given that the CNAME at the Apex problem appears to be mostly (entirely?) an HTTP-related problem, it seems to me we ought to be engaging more with HTTPbis to help them come up

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-23 Thread John Levine
I've been talking privately with some knowledgable httpbis folks about having a special joint session at IETF 90 where we can focus on this topic and hopefully come to a mutual understanding of the problems and opportunities. Would people be interested in attending such a meeting? I'd

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-22 Thread Masataka Ohta
(2014/05/22 14:00), S Moonesamy wrote: Hi John, At 10:43 21-05-2014, John Levine wrote: See RFC 1123, section 5.2.2. Tony Finch already commented about RFC 1123. That section has been replaced (see RFC 5321). Section 8.7 of RFC 6409 is applicable for mail submission and CNAME. What

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-22 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 537d9d47.3000...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp, Masataka Ohta writes: (2014/05/22 14:00), S Moonesamy wrote: Hi John, At 10:43 21-05-2014, John Levine wrote: See RFC 1123, section 5.2.2. Tony Finch already commented about RFC 1123. That section has been replaced (see RFC

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-22 Thread Tony Finch
Masataka Ohta mo...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp wrote: See RFC 1123 section 5.2.2. This requirement was dropped in RFC 2821 and successors. Perhaps, it is a misunderstanding of a suggestion of rfc974: Note that the algorithm to delete irrelevant RRs breaks if LOCAL has a alias and

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-22 Thread Klaus Malorny
On 22.05.2014 03:18, Masataka Ohta wrote: Klaus Malorny wrote: Sure, but I am talking of about 5-20 variants per name, not all that are combinatorially possible. The idea is that the registrant simply decides which of the variants he wants to have included with his original name. Those

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-22 Thread Tony Finch
S Moonesamy sm+i...@elandsys.com wrote: Section 8.7 of RFC 6409 is applicable for mail submission and CNAME. Whoops, the second paragraph of that section is completely incorrect. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ Tyne, Dogger, Fisher, German Bight, Humber: Cyclonic 5

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-22 Thread Masataka Ohta
Tony Finch wrote: Perhaps, it is a misunderstanding of a suggestion of rfc974: Note that the algorithm to delete irrelevant RRs breaks if LOCAL has a alias and the alias is listed in the MX records for REMOTE. (E.g. REMOTE has an MX of ALIAS, where ALIAS has a CNAME of LOCAL).

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 537c2f18.4060...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp, Masataka Ohta writes: Mark Andrews wrote: The data stored at www.example.net is usually very different to the data stored at example.net. For www.example.net you often don't care about anything other than A and . The same can

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Masataka Ohta
Mark Andrews wrote: What's wrong with: _http._tcp.example.net. SRV ... www.example.net. Nothing. So, without (C/E)NAME changes, the possibility of the following configuration: _http._tcp.example.net. SRV ... example.net.hoster.net. example.net.hoster.net CNAME

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 537c47f9.4040...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp, Masataka Ohta writes: Mark Andrews wrote: What's wrong with: _http._tcp.example.net. SRV ... www.example.net. Nothing. So, without (C/E)NAME changes, the possibility of the following configuration:

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Klaus Malorny
On 21.05.2014 08:09, Mark Andrews wrote: What's wrong with: _http._tcp.example.net. SRV ... www.example.net. Nothing. Hi, please take into account that a CNAME + DNAME, the previously discussed BNAME or the now discussed ENAME solution is still interesting for domain name

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Masataka Ohta
Klaus Malorny wrote: please take into account that a CNAME + DNAME, the previously discussed BNAME or the now discussed ENAME solution is still interesting for domain name registries that have to deal with (maybe lots of) IDN variants. Scalability of IDN labels of equivalent characters is

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Saku Ytti
Any opinions on SVCINFO[0]. I was really big fan of SRV until I read the draft, it made really compelling arguments to me. I'm not sure I agree on how the information is encoded, coworker sent some of his thought to the author explaining how to encode in a way which makes machine-parsing easier.

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Klaus Malorny
On 21.05.2014 11:52, Ralf Weber wrote: Moin! Hi Ralf, Oh and then came DNAME for redirecting whole domain trees and that might have been a nice idea if I have a couple of domains and want them all to have the same data. But I do not know of Registries/Registrars that picked that up. Or is

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Klaus Malorny
On 21.05.2014 12:08, Masataka Ohta wrote: Klaus Malorny wrote: please take into account that a CNAME + DNAME, the previously discussed BNAME or the now discussed ENAME solution is still interesting for domain name registries that have to deal with (maybe lots of) IDN variants. Scalability of

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Masataka Ohta
Klaus Malorny wrote: Sure, but I am talking of about 5-20 variants per name, not all that are combinatorially possible. I'm afraid you don't distinguish name and label. Anyway, what if you encounter a label with 21 variants? Are you saying registries MUST reject registrations requests for

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Tony Finch
Masataka Ohta mo...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp wrote: What's wrong with allowing a zone apex have SOA, NS, CNAME but nothing else? One problem is that CNAME pointing at MX is an interop disaster area, since different MTAs disagree about whether this implies an email address rewrite. Tony. --

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Tony Finch
Saku Ytti s...@ytti.fi wrote: Any opinions on SVCINFO. I was really big fan of SRV until I read the draft, it made really compelling arguments to me. It doesn't provide indirection, and it piles potentially-unrelated SVCINFO records on to the same QNAME. It would be better to prefix the QNAME

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Masataka Ohta
Tony Finch wrote: What's wrong with allowing a zone apex have SOA, NS, CNAME but nothing else? One problem is that CNAME pointing at MX is an interop disaster area, since different MTAs disagree about whether this implies an email address rewrite. What? A CNAME, redirection purely within

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Tony Finch
Masataka Ohta mo...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp wrote: What? A CNAME, redirection purely within DNS, rewrites an email address? See RFC 1123 section 5.2.2. This requirement was dropped in RFC 2821 and successors. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ West Shannon:

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Saku Ytti
On (2014-05-21 12:38 +0100), Tony Finch wrote: Hi, SVCINFO still requires concurrent A and queries. Until newer versions of current protocols replace current protocols and mandate SVCINFO (or requivalent) at which case client has no need to query for anything else. Some services mandate

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Klaus Malorny
On 21.05.2014 13:30, Masataka Ohta wrote: Klaus Malorny wrote: Sure, but I am talking of about 5-20 variants per name, not all that are combinatorially possible. I'm afraid you don't distinguish name and label. Anyway, what if you encounter a label with 21 variants? Are you saying

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Mark Andrews
In message cc8c19f5-75e6-4476-a78e-fa65dd023...@fl1ger.de, Ralf Weber writes: Moin! On 21 May 2014, at 10:50, Klaus Malorny klaus.malo...@knipp.de wrote: please take into account that a CNAME + DNAME, the previously discussed BNA ME or the now discussed ENAME solution is still interesting

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:50:42AM +0200, Klaus Malorny wrote: interesting for domain name registries that have to deal with (maybe lots of) IDN variants. I don't think that SRV records are a viable solution for their use case. While this is true, xNAME remains a crummy way to handle variants.

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Mark Andrews
Getting validators updated will just happen once the code is written. Try to find a validator that doesn't accept NSEC3 records today. It is actually hard to do. RFC 5155 is just over 6 years old at this point. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE:

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread John Levine
What? A CNAME, redirection purely within DNS, rewrites an email address? Yes, of course. See RFC 1123, section 5.2.2. R's, John ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Ralf Weber
Moin! On 21 May 2014, at 16:16, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: More that it was assumed that people would read the rfc and enforce the prohibition themselves. When that wasn't happening it was first made into a warning '97 and fatal in '99. IMHO a software should not allow me to make

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Mark Andrews
In message f322b183-de6a-4173-9de6-afc1f1417...@fl1ger.de, Ralf Weber writes: Moin! On 21 May 2014, at 16:16, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: More that it was assumed that people would read the rfc and enforce the prohibition themselves. When that wasn't happening it was first made

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 20140521123324.ga2...@pob.ytti.fi, Saku Ytti writes: On (2014-05-21 12:38 +0100), Tony Finch wrote: Hi, SVCINFO still requires concurrent A and queries. Until newer versions of current protocols replace current protocols and mandate SVCINFO (or requivalent) at which

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Masataka Ohta
Tony Finch wrote: What? A CNAME, redirection purely within DNS, rewrites an email address? See RFC 1123 section 5.2.2. This requirement was dropped in RFC 2821 and successors. Perhaps, it is a misunderstanding of a suggestion of rfc974: Note that the algorithm to delete irrelevant RRs

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread Masataka Ohta
Saku Ytti wrote: Any opinions on SVCINFO[0]. I was really big fan of SRV until I read the draft, it made really compelling arguments to me. Goal should be that 1 query returns all the information client needs to decide The problem of URI and SVCINFO RRs is that they return too much

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-21 Thread S Moonesamy
Hi John, At 10:43 21-05-2014, John Levine wrote: See RFC 1123, section 5.2.2. Tony Finch already commented about RFC 1123. That section has been replaced (see RFC 5321). Section 8.7 of RFC 6409 is applicable for mail submission and CNAME. Regards, S. Moonesamy

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Masataka Ohta
Paul Vixie wrote: i was there when SRV was conceived. we intended it to be used opportunistically, like MX before it, falling back to or even A queries if there was no SRV. it can be added to any protocol at any time, including HTTP/0.9 clients to the extent there are still any of those

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Masataka Ohta
Paul Hoffman wrote: Yes they have, and yes it would. However, they are not focused on SRV (nor URI) at the current time. What _are_ they focused on? Transport and layering of messages within the protocol and, to a lesser extent, interaction with TLS. I'm afraid exchanges of the

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Jelte Jansen
On 05/20/2014 12:12 AM, David C Lawrence wrote: Looking at a random high-traffic DNS server on our network, I see practically no use at all of _http._tcp SRV requests. Over 6 days of logs on this machine, they are just over 0.7% of all requests. (Yes, that decimal point is right.)

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Ben Laurie
On 20 May 2014 04:54, Paul Vixie p...@redbarn.org wrote: Ted Lemon wrote: On May 19, 2014, at 6:12 PM, David C Lawrence t...@akamai.com wrote: Not so much pushing required, at least of Akamai. You have a ready-made [SRV] ally in me, if only clients actually made good use of it. The

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Chris Thompson
On May 20 2014, Mark Andrews wrote: I've updated draft-andrews-http-srv-02. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andrews-http-srv-02 Wouldn't it be desirable to say something about https URIs as well as http ones? It would seem that we will need an _https._tcp.[name] SRV RRSet as well as the

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Petr Spacek
On 20.5.2014 13:52, Chris Thompson wrote: On May 20 2014, Mark Andrews wrote: I've updated draft-andrews-http-srv-02. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andrews-http-srv-02 Wouldn't it be desirable to say something about https URIs as well as http ones? It would seem that we will need an

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Tony Finch
Ben Laurie b...@links.org wrote: Surely the problem is that the server must continue to support clients that don't look for SRV. So, what's the incentive for a server to start using it? Maybe DNS hosting providers could use the SRV records as a hint for auto-updating the A and records at

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 20 maj 2014, at 14:17, Petr Spacek pspa...@redhat.com wrote: Hmm, would it be too weird to use _http._srv.[name] CNAME _https._tcp.[name] as 'HTTPS required' signalization? (This is weird, I admit that. There will be troubles with DNS client libraries not exposing CNAMEs etc... I

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 20, 2014, at 12:48 AM, Patrik Fältström p...@frobbit.se wrote: Can we not with HTTP/2 please push SRV forward? Dare I assume that you meant not for emphasis, not to ask that we not do this? :) ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 20, 2014, at 2:29 AM, Masataka Ohta mo...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp wrote: I have a proposal in: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ohta-urlsrv-00 on the problems. Adding the port numbers is a surprising choice. Why not just do something like this: _port._proto._tcp.name.?

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 20, 2014, at 5:36 AM, Ben Laurie b...@links.org wrote: Surely the problem is that the server must continue to support clients that don't look for SRV. So, what's the incentive for a server to start using it? That's why this is a clear win for HTTP 2.0 and not so clear for HTTP 1.1.

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 20 maj 2014, at 16:00, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: On May 20, 2014, at 12:48 AM, Patrik Fältström p...@frobbit.se wrote: Can we not with HTTP/2 please push SRV forward? Dare I assume that you meant not for emphasis, not to ask that we not do this? :) Argghof course.

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 20, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Patrik Fältström p...@frobbit.se wrote: Thanks for checking carefully! np. That is a valid idiom in English, of course, but it works better if you can use your voice to emphasize what you mean... :) ___ DNSOP mailing

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Jakob Schlyter
On 19 maj 2014, at 23:45, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: Everytime I have mentioned SRV records to HTTP folks they say it won't work as the extra lookup takes too long. So query A//SRV in parallel and be done with it. Smart resolves will provide additional data just for fun and

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Mark Delany
one can lookup A, and SRV in parallel and positive answer to SRV, as Paul mentioned, can have additional A and RRs. A downside is that clients has to wait for the SRV query to complete so they can be sure of the presence or not of an SRV. First-win approaches like happy eyeballs don't

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Paul Vixie
Mark Delany wrote: one can lookup A, and SRV in parallel and positive answer to SRV, as Paul mentioned, can have additional A and RRs. A downside is that clients has to wait for the SRV query to complete so they can be sure of the presence or not of an SRV. ... in a blast

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 537af637.2030...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp, Masataka Ohta writes: Paul Vixie wrote: i was there when SRV was conceived. we intended it to be used opportunistically, like MX before it, falling back to or even A queries if there was no SRV. it can be added to any protocol

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Masataka Ohta
Mark Andrews wrote: The reason why CNAME is prohibited at a zone apex is described in RFC 1034: If we must change something, isn't it easier to allow CNAME at a zone apex than introducing ENAME? Masataka Ohta

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Paul Vixie
Masataka Ohta wrote: Mark Andrews wrote: The reason why CNAME is prohibited at a zone apex is described in RFC 1034: If we must change something, isn't it easier to allow CNAME at a zone apex than introducing ENAME? the reasons for prohibiting it, as given in RFC 1034, still apply.

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 537c15b4.2000...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp, Masataka Ohta writes: Mark Andrews wrote: The reason why CNAME is prohibited at a zone apex is described in RFC 1034: If we must change something, isn't it easier to allow CNAME at a zone apex than introducing ENAME? No. They are

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Masataka Ohta
Ben Laurie wrote: Surely the problem is that the server must continue to support clients that don't look for SRV. So, what's the incentive for a server to start using it? Port based virtual (without port numbers in URLs) hosting. With the following extended reverse look up:

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 537c24fa.6020...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp, Masataka Ohta writes: Mark Andrews wrote: The reason why CNAME is prohibited at a zone apex is described in RFC 103 4: If we must change something, isn't it easier to allow CNAME at a zone apex than introducing ENAME? No.

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Masataka Ohta
Mark Andrews wrote: The data stored at www.example.net is usually very different to the data stored at example.net. For www.example.net you often don't care about anything other than A and . The same can not be said for example.net even after you remove SOA, NS and DNSKEY from the

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Masataka Ohta
Mark Andrews wrote: I've updated draft-andrews-http-srv-02. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-andrews-http-srv-02 First, as all the URIs related to SRV are URLs, the draft should specifically say URLs, especially because non-URL URIs are virtually dead replaced by DOIs. Considering a

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-20 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 20 maj 2014, at 22:57, Mark Delany f...@november.emu.st wrote: one can lookup A, and SRV in parallel and positive answer to SRV, as Paul mentioned, can have additional A and RRs. A downside is that clients has to wait for the SRV query to complete so they can be sure of the

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Jelte Jansen
On 05/18/2014 07:58 AM, Patrik Fältström wrote: It might be worth actively pushing the CDN folks to go the SRV direction. Even if ENAME were a good idea, which is not clear to me, it's an idea that would require significant infrastructure changes, whereas SRV records appear to be

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread John Levine
It might be worth actively pushing the CDN folks to go the SRV direction. Even if ENAME were a good idea, which is not clear to me, it's an idea that would require significant infrastructure changes, whereas SRV records appear to be functional now, with no DNS software changes. As I

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Paul Hoffman
On May 16, 2014, at 6:19 PM, Mark Delany f...@november.emu.st wrote: On 17May14, Mark Andrews allegedly wrote: domain ENAME domain {0|1} [type list of included / excluded types] (0 == include, 1 == exclude) As I recall, the HTTP/2.0 folks have been intermittently talking

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 20140519161241.39243.qm...@joyce.lan, John Levine writes: It might be worth actively pushing the CDN folks to go the SRV direction. Even if ENAME were a good idea, which is not clear to me, it's an idea that would require significant infrastructure changes, whereas SRV records

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Paul Vixie
Mark Andrews wrote: ... Everytime I have mentioned SRV records to HTTP folks they say it won't work as the extra lookup takes too long. this sounds strange to me. TTL=0 SRV RR's strike me as precisely what the CDN industry needs, since they can include an (or for back-compatibility, an

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread David C Lawrence
Ted Lemon wrote: It might be worth actively pushing the CDN folks to go the SRV direction. Not so much pushing required, at least of Akamai. You have a ready-made ally in me, if only clients actually made good use of it. The clients are the real obstacle. Looking at a random high-traffic DNS

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 19, 2014, at 5:11 PM, Paul Hoffman paul.hoff...@vpnc.org wrote: Yes they have, and yes it would. However, they are not focused on SRV (nor URI) at the current time. What _are_ they focused on? ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Bob Halley
I too think the SRV route is far better. I've always thought it was an architectural mistake to be looking up hostnames when what you wanted was a service. SRV records have priority, weighting, and the ability to specify a port, all of which are useful. Since the owner name for a service whose

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Mark Andrews
In message cf9fdbdd.117d1%bob.hal...@nominum.com, Bob Halley writes: I too think the SRV route is far better. I've always thought it was an architectural mistake to be looking up hostnames when what you wanted was a service. SRV records have priority, weighting, and the ability to specify

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Bob Halley
On 5/19/14, 16:43, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: No. Your analysis is faulty. ENAME could be used immediately once the authoritative servers for the zone support it. It would just be insecure until validators catch up. ENAME + old algorithm would be illegal and would be enforced by

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Paul Hoffman
off-topic On May 19, 2014, at 3:40 PM, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: On May 19, 2014, at 5:11 PM, Paul Hoffman paul.hoff...@vpnc.org wrote: Yes they have, and yes it would. However, they are not focused on SRV (nor URI) at the current time. What _are_ they focused on? Transport

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 19, 2014, at 6:12 PM, David C Lawrence t...@akamai.com wrote: Not so much pushing required, at least of Akamai. You have a ready-made ally in me, if only clients actually made good use of it. The clients are the real obstacle. Yup. It would be great if we could get the HTTP 1.1

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 19, 2014, at 7:43 PM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: These needs will come up again. We can deal with them now or deal with them later. Let's deal with them later. ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Olafur Gudmundsson
On May 19, 2014, at 8:26 PM, Bob Halley bob.hal...@nominum.com wrote: On 5/19/14, 16:43, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: No. Your analysis is faulty. ENAME could be used immediately once the authoritative servers for the zone support it. It would just be insecure until validators

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Andrew Sullivan
Hi, First, let me say that I like Mark's sketch of ENAME that I read on this list. (To disclose my bias, I had a much inferior, faintly similar idea a couple years ago, but it was not complete, and not as compact or elegant. The customer I offered it to therefore told me not to pursue it.) I

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Paul Vixie
Ted Lemon wrote: On May 19, 2014, at 6:12 PM, David C Lawrence t...@akamai.com wrote: Not so much pushing required, at least of Akamai. You have a ready-made [SRV] ally in me, if only clients actually made good use of it. The clients are the real obstacle. Yup. It would be great if we

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-19 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 20 maj 2014, at 05:54, Paul Vixie p...@redbarn.org wrote: if we decide that web servers can be reached by SRV records, then any web client can start looking for the SRV that describes that service, falling back to whatever tin-cups-and-string it did before if it can't find the SRV it

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-18 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 17 maj 2014, at 13:51, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: It might be worth actively pushing the CDN folks to go the SRV direction. Even if ENAME were a good idea, which is not clear to me, it's an idea that would require significant infrastructure changes, whereas SRV records

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-18 Thread Tim Wicinski
On 5/18/14, 1:58 AM, Patrik Fältström wrote: On 17 maj 2014, at 13:51, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: It might be worth actively pushing the CDN folks to go the SRV direction. Even if ENAME were a good idea, which is not clear to me, it's an idea that would require significant

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-18 Thread Andreas Schulze
Mark Andrews: domain ENAME domain {0|1} [type list of included / excluded types] (0 == include, 1 == exclude) Mark, I currently don't see, why ENAME will be usefull. Could you (or other) clarify in which scenario ENAME would be helpfull? Or what like to ask: How has my

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-18 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 20140518163140.gb27...@solar.andreasschulze.de, Andreas Schulze wr ites: Mark Andrews: domain ENAME domain {0|1} [type list of included / excluded types] (0 == include, 1 == exclude) Mark, I currently don't see, why ENAME will be usefull. Could you (or other)

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-17 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 20140517011926.71263.qm...@f5-external.bushwire.net, Mark Delany writes: On 17May14, Mark Andrews allegedly wrote: domain ENAME domain {0|1} [type list of included / excluded types] (0 == include, 1 == exclude) As I recall, the HTTP/2.0 folks have been

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-17 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 17, 2014, at 3:12 AM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: Or are there other uses for ENAME beyond what the HTTP/CDN crowd do with CNAMEs today? I would encourage both. ENAME is just service agnostic. It might be worth actively pushing the CDN folks to go the SRV direction. Even if

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-17 Thread Joe Abley
On 17 May 2014, at 7:51, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: On May 17, 2014, at 3:12 AM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: Or are there other uses for ENAME beyond what the HTTP/CDN crowd do with CNAMEs today? I would encourage both. ENAME is just service agnostic. It might be

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-17 Thread Ted Lemon
On May 17, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca wrote: With respect to using SRV for HTTP (which I agree would be great) the gap is on the client side. It's an application issue, and I don't see a lot of work to be done in this working group. How widespread is HTTP 2.0 support in

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-17 Thread Mark Andrews
In message 9df48618-9856-43f7-8e69-b43a1b0e5...@hopcount.ca, Joe Abley writes : On 17 May 2014, at 7:51, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote: On May 17, 2014, at 3:12 AM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: Or are there other uses for ENAME beyond what the HTTP/CDN crowd do with CNAMEs

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-17 Thread Måns Nilsson
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME) Date: Sat, May 17, 2014 at 07:51:00AM -0400 Quoting Ted Lemon (ted.le...@nominum.com): On May 17, 2014, at 3:12 AM, Mark Andrews ma...@isc.org wrote: Or are there other uses for ENAME beyond what the HTTP/CDN crowd do with CNAMEs today? I

[DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-16 Thread Mark Andrews
domain ENAME domain {0|1} [type list of included / excluded types] (0 == include, 1 == exclude) domain ENAME domain 1 is equivalent to domain CNAME domain (exclude nothing) domain ENAME domain 1 NS DNSKEY SOA is CNAME at apex

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-16 Thread Mark Delany
On 17May14, Mark Andrews allegedly wrote: domain ENAME domain {0|1} [type list of included / excluded types] (0 == include, 1 == exclude) As I recall, the HTTP/2.0 folks have been intermittently talking about supporting SRV. Would encouraging that group on that front be

Re: [DNSOP] Extended CNAME (ENAME)

2014-05-16 Thread Paul Vixie
Mark Delany wrote: On 17May14, Mark Andrews allegedly wrote: domain ENAME domain {0|1} [type list of included / excluded types] (0 == include, 1 == exclude) As I recall, the HTTP/2.0 folks have been intermittently talking about supporting SRV. Would encouraging that group