o: "Grasso, Charles"
Cc: Ken Javor , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG"
Subject: RE: [PSES] ESD question
Charles,
I've interacted with Ken on occasion through a LinkedIn EMC group. I see by
scrolling down through this thread that there are several components to the
conversation. As y
Wah??? You had to actually touch the TV to change the channel?
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 11:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
It's probably not ethnicity directly, but skin resistance. This varies greatly
on my part, so it took both the bad Force of a bad boss and the good Force
to push me successfully in the right direction.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: Douglas Smith
Reply-To: Douglas Smith
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:16:45 -0700
To:
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
I also have
I also have a copy of those waveforms and a paper Michael King wrote on one of
my older Macs, can likely find it if needed.
I was lucky to have been mentored by Michael King when I was younger. He is a
great scientist/engineer and had a great effect on me.
I was fortunate to have four great
It's probably not ethnicity directly, but skin resistance. This varies
greatly between people. Long years ago, when we had touch-contact
channel change on TVs, we had to double the sensitivity so that one
particular person in the lab could work it. When we took sets to a show,
someone turned
f standard writing
activity, I doubt it’s simply inertia.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
*From: *John Woodgate
*Date: *Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:26:38 +0100
*To: *Ken Javor ,
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] ESD question
Probably h
6:38 +0100
To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com,
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Probably handed down on a stone tablet in 1910 and no-one had the courage to
challenge it yet. (;-)
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjo
PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
What with Doug Smith being active in this sort of standard writing activity, I
doubt it’s simply inertia.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256
This is going downhill fast but I¹m enjoying the ride!
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: John Woodgate
Reply-To: John Woodgate
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 22:29:44 +0100
To:
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
I think the model should assume a spherical body of the relevant mass, which
-5467
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 2:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.
: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 22:14:46 +0100
To:
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Yes, that's what Annex A says, but it's still a stone tablet. 'determined',
'shown'; by whom? when? I'm not attacking the committee, because it may
well be impossible to do better. But we should understand what sort
...
:-)
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: Doug Smith
Reply-To:
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 17:06:06 -0400
To: ,
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Hi Ken and the group,
The model started out in IEC 801-2 which had a 150 Ohm, 150 pF model. This
eventually became IEC 6000-4-2 at 330 Ohms and 150 pF
testing to 'measuring jelly (Jello) with a micrometer'.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-06-19 22:05, Ken Javor wrote:
Re: [PSES] ESD question Thank you!
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
Thank you!
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: "Schaefer, David"
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:56:57 +
To: Ken Javor , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG"
Conversation: [PSES] ESD question
Subject: RE: [PSES] ESD question
Ken,
Annex A in the 2008 edition has this to
be changed.
The question, 'Cui bono?' ought to be asked a lot in EMC committees.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-06-19 21:34, Ken Javor wrote:
Re: [PSES] ESD question What with Doug Smith being active in this sort
What with Doug Smith being active in this sort of standard writing activity,
I doubt it¹s simply inertia.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: John Woodgate
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:26:38 +0100
To: Ken Javor ,
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Probably handed down on a stone tablet
Probably handed down on a stone tablet in 1910 and no-one had the
courage to challenge it yet. (;-)
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-06-19 21:18, Ken Javor wrote:
ESD question Anyone out there know the origins of the 150
that will see the coupling.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
From: Douglas Smith d...@emcesd.com
Reply-To: Douglas Smith d...@emcesd.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 10:19:40 -0800
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Actually, inductive coupling (Faraday's law) can generate
o: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Actually, inductive coupling (Faraday's law) can generate thousand of Volts
near ESD events, enough to breakdown insulation barriers!
Just get a di/dt of 40 Amps/ns (a 10kV or somewhat less contact discharge)
near a loop and see what
Cheers,
Cortland Richmond
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor
Sent: Jan 7, 2018 9:28 AM
To: Cortland Richmond , EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Re: [PSES] ESD question Cortland: Faraday Law purely inductive coupling from an
ESD event doesn't cause pote
Title: Re: [PSES] ESD question
I was working at Tandy Computers, and the EMC department was often blamed for strange occurrences. We perforce had to become experts at demonstrating causes not within our control, and the software compatibility lab with its bare motherboards was one case where I
Title: Re: [PSES] ESD question
We are sometimes less than precise -- but it leads to interesting discussions.Cheers,Cortland Richmond-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor <ken.ja...@emccompliance.com>
Sent: Jan 7, 2018 9:28 AM
To: Cortland Richmond <k...@earthlink.net&g
:00:00 +
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
If the charge is still building up, the field is not static in the region
close to whatever the charge is building up on. Just a philosophical point.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodg
Agreed. Not very static.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-01-07 15:15, Ken Javor wrote:
Re: [PSES] ESD question If the charge were truly static, and the
charged surface topology were truly static, then things should
t;j...@woodjohn.uk>
Reply-To: John Woodgate <j...@woodjohn.uk>
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 15:00:00 +
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
If the charge is still building up, the field is not static in the region
close to whatever the charge is bu
rtland Richmond <k...@earthlink.net>
*Date: *Sun, 7 Jan 2018 06:23:07 -0500
*To: *<EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] ESD question
Induction; I once saw motherboard testers shut down systems under test
by just walking away from the work table at lunchtime. Sliding acros
STSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Induction; I once saw motherboard testers shut down systems under test by
just walking away from the work table at lunchtime. Sliding across the
cloth chair seats generated a charge, and walking away biased the
motherboards and shut everything dow
o: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Philosophical issue there. If the field is really static, what
changed to cause the spark to happen when it did, rather than at
some other time? (A cosmic ray would breach the stasis.)
John Woodga
Philosophical issue there. If the field is really static, what changed
to cause the spark to happen when it did, rather than at some other
time? (A cosmic ray would breach the stasis.)
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On
EE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Hi Ed and Ken,
An ESD event can be produced without any direct addition of charge. It only
takes an E field and two conductors near each other as in:
http://emcesd.com/tt2001/tt060101.htm
http://emcesd.com/tt2001/tt050101.htm
<http://emcesd.co
Hi Ed and Ken,
An ESD event can be produced without any direct addition of charge. It only
takes an E field and two conductors near each other as in:
http://emcesd.com/tt2001/tt060101.htm
http://emcesd.com/tt2001/tt050101.htm
Unobserved discharge not needed and generally is not
ct: Re: [PSES] ESD question
I have had this happen to me using a conventional telephone handset as I rose
from sitting on a bed. The charge available then was from the full capacitance
of my body as opposed to the capacitance between the iPhone and the body.
This has been going on for as many
[mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
Sent: 06 January 2018 18:28
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
<https://tr.cloudmagic.com/h/v6/emailtag/tag/2.0/1515263292/1f1617f6804b53a4713f5023a09a661a/1/e6b2e6caabff23ac8328d6a5dc39f227/39feccaef3f24eadcf81b440d32e4
I have had this happen to me using a conventional telephone handset as I rose
from sitting on a bed. The charge available then was from the full capacitance
of my body as opposed to the capacitance between the iPhone and the body.
This has been going on for as many years as there have been
Doug,
How significant are differences between the telephone/radar operators cases
and Ken's experience? Equipment capacitances (higher pF for
telephone/radar operators), discharge location and voltage (Ken's in-ear
ear buds vs. "on/over ear" for operators), wire lengths and floating vs.
earthed
: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 23:48:01 -0800
To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
Thus is a common occurrence. The iPhone was not actually connected to you
so the large E field induced a different charge on you than on the phone and
hence the discharge through your ear (th
BTW, indoor humidity is constant in Boulder City, NV as the dewpoint does not
change much summer to winter. It is often 10 degrees F almost any time of year,
and conventional air conditioning actually increases indoor relative humidity
as they do not remove water (dewpoint too low) but cool the
Thus is a common occurrence. The iPhone was not actually connected to you so
the large E field induced a different charge on you than on the phone and hence
the discharge through your ear (the lowest breakdown between the iPhond and you.
Such discharges have led to claims of injury that ended up
Thank you all for your comments and advice, it is appreciated.
For your interest, the product had gone through approval and though there
were some ESD induced abnormalities these were considered a low risk. It was
the reports from two independent customers regarding a particular failure
mode
-Original Message-
From: bogdan matoga [mailto:bogda...@pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:01 PM
To: Gibling, Vic
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: An ESD question
Vic:
The ambient relative humidity should have no impact on the performance of the
gut but only
: Gibling, Vic; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: An ESD question
It is interesting to see how easy it is to lose focus. The problem is not
the humidity, approach speed, etc. as Richard has suggested. Yes, they are
factors but not the problem. The problem is a massive design flaw
Vic:
The ambient relative humidity should have no impact on the performance of the
gut but only on the generation of static charges. So, to improve the
performance in the field, I would suggest that you increase the R.H. at the
customer site(s) to about 50% which would eliminate the generation
It is interesting to see how easy it is to lose focus. The problem is not the
humidity, approach speed, etc. as Richard has suggested. Yes, they are factors
but not the problem. The problem is a massive design flaw. 800 volts is way
too low. The fact there are multiple failure modes
As has been pointed out by Mr. Woods, humidity is only
one of many parameters involved with ESD. And simulating
a dry environment in a chamber that's completely lined with
metal surfaces might not be sufficient for simulating a dry
customer environment.
ESD failures at differing levels of
Vic,
I agree, your product is probably seeing field failures because of the dry
conditions. These dry conditions make the probability of an ESD event higher.
This is due to the fact that, as personnel walk across carpets or rub their
clothing on chairs, there is no humidity in the air to
Humidity is not the only variable, and may not be your major variable.
Repeatability of ESD results is a statistical problem. Consider the
variables:
-humidity
-approach speed (for non-contact discharge)
-angle of the probe (for non-contact discharge)
-synchronization of the ESD application with
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