Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape

[tom-emc]

FWIW, here are models of the No Mister Misty:

https://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/NoMisterMisty-Assy.f3d. (Fusion 360 Assembly)
https://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/NoMisterMisty-Assy.zip (Solid Works Assembly)
https://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/NoMisterMisty-Assy.step (.stp or step file)

-Tom



> On Mar 21, 2019, at 2:11 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> On Thursday 21 March 2019 11:09:39 Tom Easterday wrote:
> 
>> We built “No Mister Misty” for a bunch of machines around our shop and
>> they work great.  Traditional misters force coolant/lubricant under
>> pressure out the end of a nozzle which atomizes the coolant.  Most of
>> that goes into the air and after time your shop will be filled with a
>> mist of coolant for you to inhale.  Our (not) mister uses a needle
>> valve from McMaster that is epoxied into a machined brass block and
>> allows you feed coolant through the valve which is then injected into
>> the side of a stream of low pressure air, both coolant and air stream
>> are at the same pressure.  There is then a tube 4-6” long with a small
>> (flat faced) nozzle on the end with a 0.040” hole in it  That way the
>> drops of lubricant are NOT atomized, but are carried out in tiny
>> droplets in the air stream.  The vast majority ends up where you aim
>> the nozzle and not in the air.  You can regulate the amount of coolant
>> quite precisely with the needle valve.  They create very little mist.
>> 
>> -Tom
> Well, now having attempted to take it apart and inspect the needle valve, 
> it turns out that the valve actually regulates the air flow but to a 
> very minor degree as it has four more nominally #69 holes bypassing the 
> needle seat even when its closed.
> 
> It also turns out that the fluid hose simply sails on by the mounting 
> block as a continuous hose all the way from the tank to the nozzle, 
> which is threaded on its OD so that the rear brass part screws on and 
> off the end of the leaky plastic, which in turn controls the spacing of 
> the jet and the adjustable end brass nozzle and that maximum suction 
> lift is achieved when the internal/rear brass part connected is loosened 
> at the gland, and it can then be reassembled one or perhaps two threads 
> farther out, bringing the end of the nozzle approximately flush with the 
> end of the outer brass fitting, and it  then develops enough suction to 
> prime the suction line and make spray at about 20 psig, which once 
> started, still works down to about 13 psig. But even then,the segmented 
> air hose is leaking enough to blow out all all 85 candles on my next 
> birthday cake.  Is this stuff all that poorly molded?
> 
> The real bottom line is that in addition to putting balanced 
> pressure /in/ the fluid container, there is not _any_ facility to 
> control the fluid flow in the whole thing.  So after I check the mailbox 
> as I just heard the teeny white box truck go by, I'll go see if I can 
> find a needle valve to put in the fluid line an inch or so from the 
> mounting block else it will use up an 8 oz coke bottle of mix in about 2 
> minutes, drowning the work and soaking the spoil board. It might even be 
> something I'll have to make, and while needles are hard to make, I do 
> have drills down to #80.  And I know how to do primitive EDM, which 
> makes me think I might be able to do the needle and its seating orifice 
> in one shot.
> 
> This is turning into one of the higher numbered Excedrin headaches.
> 
> But I'd  better get to it...
>> 
>> On Mar 21, 2019, at 8:36 AM, Ken Strauss  wrote:
 -Original Message-
 From: TJoseph Powderly [mailto:tjt...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 7:32 AM
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape
 
 a quick google reminded me why this was familair
 try googling 'spray nozzle'
 i got
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_nozzle
 and it showed me that the flat surface exit made NO atomization
 thats not what you want, sorry
 ( i was trying to achieve the jumping water effect seen in many
 fountains and that flat exit was great for the hot dog of water
 effect ) if you want the fluid stream broken into tiny droplets ,
 the web page lists a lot of geometries to try
 tomp
 
 On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:50 AM Gene Heskett
 
 
 wrote:
>> On Wednesday 20 March 2019 21:29:19 TJoseph Powderly wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Mr Nozzle shape
> 
> Did not get any useable hits on this side of the pond. URL?
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the link. Sometimes Googling for the obvious terms gives
>>> the best results!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [Emc-users] problem DH parameters manipulator arm

[Chris Albertson]

I think what you have is a circular link.That means a
parallelogram type geometry.  I have a robot arm like this too but mine
is MUCH smaller and lower cost.

Mine is nearly identical to this arm on Amazon.
.amazon.com/Blesiya-Professional-Aluminum-Mechanical-Educational


Notice that these are two motors on the shoulder and the "elbow" is pushed
by a link.  I think we have the same geometries, except for scale.
The way to model it using DH is to re-draw the robot arm.   Make a paper
drawing of an equivalent arm that has a motor on each axis and no
circular links and no passive links.You WILL need to transform the
shaft angle of the moved motor.

I don't use MK for this.  I like "move it" but still DH parameters really
only work for serial links so the trick is to model your arm as a serial
link arm, just pretend the elbow motor is on that elbow and it's shaft
angle is a function of the base motor shaft angle.   This geometry is VERY
common and yes there are names for it but most people call them palletizing
robots.THese robots need to lift heavy loads, like bags of dog food off
belts and place them on wood pallets so the motors are plased in the base
and force transmitted to push rods.   Most are only 4-DOF   A Google search
for "palletizing robot kinematics" will ,give tons of information.But
"cheating" works.  Remove the pushlinks and move the motor and make DH
parms for that.  The later "fix" the elbow motor shaft angle. .

The arm in the above link is like mine in that it uses model airplane
servos.   These are very inaccurate and are open loop.   So the plan is to
close the control loop with a video cameras.  This is not something MK was
designed for hence using Moveit. moveit.ros.orgThen I find I need to
sychronize the video shutters so that is on hold for now.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 6:45 AM yomin estiven jaramillo munera <
yejm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi guys is me again, our kinematics problem have progressed, this is
> because we are sure that our D-H  parameters were correctly extracted, but
> seems that our robot couldn't be defined with this parameters.
> I'm saying this 'cause our robot is a miller MR 2000  and is very old, it
> is moving how you can see in the follow link
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp0gVXj5u-I=youtu.be
>
> the D-H parameters could define the kinematics but when a joint depend of
> the before one, but in this case our joint 2 is not changing the
> orientation of our joint 3. The joint 2 is able to change the position on
> the space of the final tool, but is unable to change its orientation on the
> space. this kinematics is obviously very different to PUMA kinematics and
> we are doubting about DH parameters can solve this.
> is there any name for this kind of kinematics?
> could i solve this using D-H parameters?
> could i solve this using genserkins?
> All my axes are set like angular joint, could that involved in a possible
> solution?
>
> 
>
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 March 2019 11:09:39 Tom Easterday wrote:

> We built “No Mister Misty” for a bunch of machines around our shop and
> they work great.  Traditional misters force coolant/lubricant under
> pressure out the end of a nozzle which atomizes the coolant.  Most of
> that goes into the air and after time your shop will be filled with a
> mist of coolant for you to inhale.  Our (not) mister uses a needle
> valve from McMaster that is epoxied into a machined brass block and
> allows you feed coolant through the valve which is then injected into
> the side of a stream of low pressure air, both coolant and air stream
> are at the same pressure.  There is then a tube 4-6” long with a small
> (flat faced) nozzle on the end with a 0.040” hole in it  That way the
> drops of lubricant are NOT atomized, but are carried out in tiny
> droplets in the air stream.  The vast majority ends up where you aim
> the nozzle and not in the air.  You can regulate the amount of coolant
> quite precisely with the needle valve.  They create very little mist.
>
> -Tom
Well, now having attempted to take it apart and inspect the needle valve, 
it turns out that the valve actually regulates the air flow but to a 
very minor degree as it has four more nominally #69 holes bypassing the 
needle seat even when its closed.

It also turns out that the fluid hose simply sails on by the mounting 
block as a continuous hose all the way from the tank to the nozzle, 
which is threaded on its OD so that the rear brass part screws on and 
off the end of the leaky plastic, which in turn controls the spacing of 
the jet and the adjustable end brass nozzle and that maximum suction 
lift is achieved when the internal/rear brass part connected is loosened 
at the gland, and it can then be reassembled one or perhaps two threads 
farther out, bringing the end of the nozzle approximately flush with the 
end of the outer brass fitting, and it  then develops enough suction to 
prime the suction line and make spray at about 20 psig, which once 
started, still works down to about 13 psig. But even then,the segmented 
air hose is leaking enough to blow out all all 85 candles on my next 
birthday cake.  Is this stuff all that poorly molded?

The real bottom line is that in addition to putting balanced 
pressure /in/ the fluid container, there is not _any_ facility to 
control the fluid flow in the whole thing.  So after I check the mailbox 
as I just heard the teeny white box truck go by, I'll go see if I can 
find a needle valve to put in the fluid line an inch or so from the 
mounting block else it will use up an 8 oz coke bottle of mix in about 2 
minutes, drowning the work and soaking the spoil board. It might even be 
something I'll have to make, and while needles are hard to make, I do 
have drills down to #80.  And I know how to do primitive EDM, which 
makes me think I might be able to do the needle and its seating orifice 
in one shot.

This is turning into one of the higher numbered Excedrin headaches.

But I'd  better get to it...
>
> On Mar 21, 2019, at 8:36 AM, Ken Strauss  wrote:
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: TJoseph Powderly [mailto:tjt...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 7:32 AM
> >> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> >> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape
> >>
> >> a quick google reminded me why this was familair
> >> try googling 'spray nozzle'
> >> i got
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_nozzle
> >> and it showed me that the flat surface exit made NO atomization
> >> thats not what you want, sorry
> >> ( i was trying to achieve the jumping water effect seen in many
> >> fountains and that flat exit was great for the hot dog of water
> >> effect ) if you want the fluid stream broken into tiny droplets ,
> >> the web page lists a lot of geometries to try
> >> tomp
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:50 AM Gene Heskett
> >> 
> >>
> >> wrote:
>  On Wednesday 20 March 2019 21:29:19 TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> 
>  Hello Mr Nozzle shape
> >>>
> >>> Did not get any useable hits on this side of the pond. URL?
> >>>
> >>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >
> > Thanks for the link. Sometimes Googling for the obvious terms gives
> > the best results!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape

[MC Cason via Emc-users]

Gene,

  Google "diy fog buster".  There are lots of homemade systems that do 
exactly what you want, for around a $50.00 bill.




---Mark

On 3/21/19 11:00 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Thursday 21 March 2019 07:31:44 TJoseph Powderly wrote:


a quick google reminded me why this was familair
try googling 'spray nozzle'
i got
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_nozzle
and it showed me that the flat surface exit made NO atomization
thats not what you want, sorry

The internal nozzle, delivering the liquid is a flat faced rod of about
1/8" (3.15mm) diameter, with perhaps a #66 drill hole for the fluid exit
in the center.  The covering and adjustable brass tip which can be
screwed in and out to control the clearance between the sharp shoulder
of the liquid jet, and the actual orifice the spray comes out of, is as
a first guess too large to generate the air velocity needed for a good
siphon effect. The siphon effect, to get a 6" lift for a fluid that is
very close to plain water, takes around 50 psig. At that psig, the joint
leakage air volume comeing out between the pieces that make up the
steerable hose far exceeds the amount of air actually exiting the nozzle
itself. The air conpresser will not long tolerate a continuous run as
its a direct drive design, needing much more cooldown time than run
time.

So what I'll try next is to pressurize the liquid container, and restrict
the liquid flow, which should give me relatively coarse, fog free
droplets at 10 psig. The problem would appear to be both the so-called
needle valve is not a true needle, and poor machining resulting in a far
from complete shut off.  But I've not removed the stem of this valve
yet, which also has a packing gland collar, for inspection and possible
modification.  So since the missus likes coke, (I, as a diabetic,
officially hate the stuff) and I keep a 6 pack of 8oz bottles for her
that she has probably forgotten I have, she gets to drink one because I
need the empty. :-)

So thats my next experiment.  Then I think I'll put some switches in my
gcode and move all the interfaces output connectors to the other side of
the box, leaving only the db25's.  Makeing two panels is looking more
and more appetizing.  And since the switches for home and limit are now
about 6 weeks since paypal paid for them, I sent the vendor a "where are
they" message this morning. I have a tracking number, but everytime I
click on it, the estimated delivery is pushed out another 2 weeks with
no other info.  Doesn't smell right from here.

Cheers, Gene Heskett




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Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 21 March 2019 07:31:44 TJoseph Powderly wrote:

> a quick google reminded me why this was familair
> try googling 'spray nozzle'
> i got
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_nozzle
> and it showed me that the flat surface exit made NO atomization
> thats not what you want, sorry

The internal nozzle, delivering the liquid is a flat faced rod of about 
1/8" (3.15mm) diameter, with perhaps a #66 drill hole for the fluid exit 
in the center.  The covering and adjustable brass tip which can be 
screwed in and out to control the clearance between the sharp shoulder 
of the liquid jet, and the actual orifice the spray comes out of, is as 
a first guess too large to generate the air velocity needed for a good 
siphon effect. The siphon effect, to get a 6" lift for a fluid that is 
very close to plain water, takes around 50 psig. At that psig, the joint 
leakage air volume comeing out between the pieces that make up the 
steerable hose far exceeds the amount of air actually exiting the nozzle 
itself. The air conpresser will not long tolerate a continuous run as 
its a direct drive design, needing much more cooldown time than run 
time.

So what I'll try next is to pressurize the liquid container, and restrict 
the liquid flow, which should give me relatively coarse, fog free 
droplets at 10 psig. The problem would appear to be both the so-called 
needle valve is not a true needle, and poor machining resulting in a far 
from complete shut off.  But I've not removed the stem of this valve 
yet, which also has a packing gland collar, for inspection and possible 
modification.  So since the missus likes coke, (I, as a diabetic, 
officially hate the stuff) and I keep a 6 pack of 8oz bottles for her 
that she has probably forgotten I have, she gets to drink one because I 
need the empty. :-)

So thats my next experiment.  Then I think I'll put some switches in my 
gcode and move all the interfaces output connectors to the other side of 
the box, leaving only the db25's.  Makeing two panels is looking more 
and more appetizing.  And since the switches for home and limit are now 
about 6 weeks since paypal paid for them, I sent the vendor a "where are 
they" message this morning. I have a tracking number, but everytime I 
click on it, the estimated delivery is pushed out another 2 weeks with 
no other info.  Doesn't smell right from here.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] problem DH parameters manipulator arm

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 15:34, yomin estiven jaramillo munera
 wrote:
>
> hi andy, how could trivkins take in count the size of my links?

You can't use trivkins, not at all.

I only showed the trivkins code to illustrate that a custom kinematics
module isn't very complicated. You just need to work out the
mathematical relationship between the joints and the coordinates of
the end-effector.
In trivkins this is very simple, with no calcualtions needed.
Your kinematics would need calculations specific to your geometry.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] problem DH parameters manipulator arm

[yomin estiven jaramillo munera]

hi andy, how could trivkins take in count the size of my links?

El jue., 21 de mar. de 2019 a la(s) 08:57, andy pugh (bodge...@gmail.com)
escribió:

> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 13:45, yomin estiven jaramillo munera
>  wrote:
>
> > I'm saying this 'cause our robot is a miller MR 2000  and is very old, it
> > is moving how you can see in the follow link
>
> You are right, that isn't a "pure" serial robot so Genserkins is
> probably not a good choice.
>
> You could potentially add and subtract motor positions in HAL to make
> it work, but it is likely to be easier to write a custom kinematics
> from scratch.
>
> The robot seems to be geometrically fairly simple, being largely all
> in one plane.
>
> Look at the old version of trivkins to see how simple a kinematics file
> can be:
>
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/2.6/src/emc/kinematics/trivkins.c
>
> Just two functions, one to calculate joint positions from world
> coordinates and one to do the reverse (everything after line 67 there
> is the same  in all kins files, unless they need pins, paramters etc)
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape

[Tom Easterday]

We built “No Mister Misty” for a bunch of machines around our shop and they 
work great.  Traditional misters force coolant/lubricant under pressure out the 
end of a nozzle which atomizes the coolant.  Most of that goes into the air and 
after time your shop will be filled with a mist of coolant for you to inhale.  
Our (not) mister uses a needle valve from McMaster that is epoxied into a 
machined brass block and allows you feed coolant through the valve which is 
then injected into the side of a stream of low pressure air, both coolant and 
air stream are at the same pressure.  There is then a tube 4-6” long with a 
small (flat faced) nozzle on the end with a 0.040” hole in it  That way the 
drops of lubricant are NOT atomized, but are carried out in tiny droplets in 
the air stream.  The vast majority ends up where you aim the nozzle and not in 
the air.  You can regulate the amount of coolant quite precisely with the 
needle valve.  They create very little mist.

-Tom

On Mar 21, 2019, at 8:36 AM, Ken Strauss  wrote:

>> -Original Message-
>> From: TJoseph Powderly [mailto:tjt...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 7:32 AM
>> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape
>> 
>> a quick google reminded me why this was familair
>> try googling 'spray nozzle'
>> i got
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_nozzle
>> and it showed me that the flat surface exit made NO atomization
>> thats not what you want, sorry
>> ( i was trying to achieve the jumping water effect seen in many fountains
>> and that flat exit was great for the hot dog of water effect )
>> if you want the fluid stream broken into tiny droplets ,
>> the web page lists a lot of geometries to try
>> tomp
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:50 AM Gene Heskett 
>> wrote:
>> 
 On Wednesday 20 March 2019 21:29:19 TJoseph Powderly wrote:
 
 Hello Mr Nozzle shape
>>> 
>>> Did not get any useable hits on this side of the pond. URL?
>>> 
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 
> Thanks for the link. Sometimes Googling for the obvious terms gives the best
> results!
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] problem DH parameters manipulator arm

[andy pugh]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 13:45, yomin estiven jaramillo munera
 wrote:

> I'm saying this 'cause our robot is a miller MR 2000  and is very old, it
> is moving how you can see in the follow link

You are right, that isn't a "pure" serial robot so Genserkins is
probably not a good choice.

You could potentially add and subtract motor positions in HAL to make
it work, but it is likely to be easier to write a custom kinematics
from scratch.

The robot seems to be geometrically fairly simple, being largely all
in one plane.

Look at the old version of trivkins to see how simple a kinematics file can be:

https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/2.6/src/emc/kinematics/trivkins.c

Just two functions, one to calculate joint positions from world
coordinates and one to do the reverse (everything after line 67 there
is the same  in all kins files, unless they need pins, paramters etc)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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[Emc-users] problem DH parameters manipulator arm

[yomin estiven jaramillo munera]

 Hi guys is me again, our kinematics problem have progressed, this is
because we are sure that our D-H  parameters were correctly extracted, but
seems that our robot couldn't be defined with this parameters.
I'm saying this 'cause our robot is a miller MR 2000  and is very old, it
is moving how you can see in the follow link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp0gVXj5u-I=youtu.be

the D-H parameters could define the kinematics but when a joint depend of
the before one, but in this case our joint 2 is not changing the
orientation of our joint 3. The joint 2 is able to change the position on
the space of the final tool, but is unable to change its orientation on the
space. this kinematics is obviously very different to PUMA kinematics and
we are doubting about DH parameters can solve this.
is there any name for this kind of kinematics?
could i solve this using D-H parameters?
could i solve this using genserkins?
All my axes are set like angular joint, could that involved in a possible
solution?



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Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape

[Ken Strauss]

> -Original Message-
> From: TJoseph Powderly [mailto:tjt...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 7:32 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape
>
> a quick google reminded me why this was familair
> try googling 'spray nozzle'
> i got
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_nozzle
> and it showed me that the flat surface exit made NO atomization
> thats not what you want, sorry
> ( i was trying to achieve the jumping water effect seen in many fountains
> and that flat exit was great for the hot dog of water effect )
> if you want the fluid stream broken into tiny droplets ,
> the web page lists a lot of geometries to try
> tomp
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:50 AM Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday 20 March 2019 21:29:19 TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Mr Nozzle shape
> >
> > Did not get any useable hits on this side of the pond. URL?
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett

Thanks for the link. Sometimes Googling for the obvious terms gives the best
results!




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Re: [Emc-users] mister nozzle shape

[TJoseph Powderly]

a quick google reminded me why this was familair
try googling 'spray nozzle'
i got
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spray_nozzle
and it showed me that the flat surface exit made NO atomization
thats not what you want, sorry
( i was trying to achieve the jumping water effect seen in many fountains
and that flat exit was great for the hot dog of water effect )
if you want the fluid stream broken into tiny droplets ,
the web page lists a lot of geometries to try
tomp

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:50 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Wednesday 20 March 2019 21:29:19 TJoseph Powderly wrote:
>
> > Hello Mr Nozzle shape
>
> Did not get any useable hits on this side of the pond. URL?
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
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