Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[The Rasterman]

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 20:36:54 +1100 Daniel Kasak  said:

> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Marc MERLIN  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 03:37:52PM +1100, Daniel Kasak wrote:
> > > Here's my take on this ...
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.
> >
> 
> No worries :)
> 
> 
> > So I will freely admit that my ignorance on how some things work, may be
> > getting in the way.
> > Maybe you can help with my lost functionality.
> > I double click on the title bar, the application window rolls up into
> > the title bar.
> > How do I do this with CSD?
> > (E calls it "shade" if that helps, and it's not in the right click menu,
> > which even if it were, it's more work to get to that, than a quick
> > roll/unroll with double click)
> >
> 
> Set up a mouse or key binding for this. Go into the settings panel. Find
> 'Input' along the top and click it. You'll see 'Edge Bindings', then 'Key
> Bindings' and 'Mouse Bindings'. Choose one of 'Key Bindings' or 'Mouse
> Bindings'. Let's pretend you're going to set up a key binding, using the
> key combo of Super ( Windows key ) and S. Hit 'Key Bindings'. In the window
> that appears, hit the 'Add' button. A dialog will appear, asking you to
> 'Press a key combination'. Hit Super ( Windows ) and S keys together. Now,
> go immediately to the right-hand column ( Action ), and scroll down almost
> to the bottom, to the 'Window: State' section. Select 'Shade Up Mode
> Toggle' and hit 'Apply'. Now try it - point at a window, and hit Super+S.
> It should shade. Everybody wins :) Key + Mouse bindings rock.

actually here mardc is right. this won't help. shading shades INTO the titlebar
provided by the wm. if it's CSD then the client totally has to do this
themselves (well toolkit really, and even efl doesn't do this with CSD... yet).

> > If I right click on gthumb title bar, I get the gtk menu which doesn't
> > know what shade is, so it's not there.
> > I have to alt right click, and guess what, even there shade is gone on
> > gthumb, but it's there on other apps.
> >
> > > ... this is not a bad thing. Diversity is a strength, and you have to
> > > accept that not everyone will build toolkits, apps, etc, the way you'd
> > like
> > > them to.
> >
> > I don't agree on that point, it's never been the year of the desktop
> > because of how many incompatible tookits we have, how there are 5 (or
> > 8?) different ways that you need to fix DPI and so forth. It's
> > ridiculous.
> > But that's another discussion...
> >
> 
> It is a different discussion, but IMHO, in the list of reasons why
> Linux-on-the-Desktop hasn't taken off, diversity of toolkits etc doesn't
> rank at all. You have to keep in mind - open-source software doesn't have a
> massive marketing machine behind it, and doesn't have the vendor lock-in
> and dodgy business practices that help keep other players on top. What
> works for them ( or what they claim works for them, eg consistent user
> experience ), won't necessarily work for open-source, and in fact it's the
> diversity and choice that keeps people like me hacking on open-source
> projects. Remove that, and I'd probably pack up my stuff and head to OSX (
> with a heavy heart ).
> 
> Dan


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Daniel Kasak]

On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Marc MERLIN  wrote:

On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 03:37:52PM +1100, Daniel Kasak wrote:
> > Here's my take on this ...
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>

No worries :)


> So I will freely admit that my ignorance on how some things work, may be
> getting in the way.
> Maybe you can help with my lost functionality.
> I double click on the title bar, the application window rolls up into
> the title bar.
> How do I do this with CSD?
> (E calls it "shade" if that helps, and it's not in the right click menu,
> which even if it were, it's more work to get to that, than a quick
> roll/unroll with double click)
>

Set up a mouse or key binding for this. Go into the settings panel. Find
'Input' along the top and click it. You'll see 'Edge Bindings', then 'Key
Bindings' and 'Mouse Bindings'. Choose one of 'Key Bindings' or 'Mouse
Bindings'. Let's pretend you're going to set up a key binding, using the
key combo of Super ( Windows key ) and S. Hit 'Key Bindings'. In the window
that appears, hit the 'Add' button. A dialog will appear, asking you to
'Press a key combination'. Hit Super ( Windows ) and S keys together. Now,
go immediately to the right-hand column ( Action ), and scroll down almost
to the bottom, to the 'Window: State' section. Select 'Shade Up Mode
Toggle' and hit 'Apply'. Now try it - point at a window, and hit Super+S.
It should shade. Everybody wins :) Key + Mouse bindings rock.


> If I right click on gthumb title bar, I get the gtk menu which doesn't
> know what shade is, so it's not there.
> I have to alt right click, and guess what, even there shade is gone on
> gthumb, but it's there on other apps.
>
> > ... this is not a bad thing. Diversity is a strength, and you have to
> > accept that not everyone will build toolkits, apps, etc, the way you'd
> like
> > them to.
>
> I don't agree on that point, it's never been the year of the desktop
> because of how many incompatible tookits we have, how there are 5 (or
> 8?) different ways that you need to fix DPI and so forth. It's
> ridiculous.
> But that's another discussion...
>

It is a different discussion, but IMHO, in the list of reasons why
Linux-on-the-Desktop hasn't taken off, diversity of toolkits etc doesn't
rank at all. You have to keep in mind - open-source software doesn't have a
massive marketing machine behind it, and doesn't have the vendor lock-in
and dodgy business practices that help keep other players on top. What
works for them ( or what they claim works for them, eg consistent user
experience ), won't necessarily work for open-source, and in fact it's the
diversity and choice that keeps people like me hacking on open-source
projects. Remove that, and I'd probably pack up my stuff and head to OSX (
with a heavy heart ).

Dan
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 04:30:05PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> here i agre with you. e.g. double-click to shade/roll up. even efl is bad here
> with csd. we don't do that (or support it in csd/client side). we SHOULD. it'd
> have to be a policy communicated between wm and apps or just some setting you
> set in elm settings or something... like "double click shades, maximizes, or
> does something else". i suspect gtk csd also is missing shading too as an
> option.
 
I'm sure they are, but if they weren't trying to get in the WM business,
they wouldn't have to care or support it :)

> imagine no longer:
> https://phab.enlightenment.org/F12631
> it does look stupid indeed.

Thanks for the example. I'll agree that it does not look great, but I'll
personally take this over losing shading.
What's stupid (to me) is the app trying to do the WM's business, and
then doing it badly. 
Beinmg a WM is a lot of work, lots of things to get right, so let the WM
do the job :)

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 19:22:06 -0800 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:13:50PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > So just to be clear, they're going to stop asking E to remove the title
> > > bar? If so, great.
> > 
> > the gtk3-nocsd thing makes that happen.
>  
> Sure, but it's a hack. I expect it to break eventually, wouldn't you?
> In other words, it works today, but I'm uncomfortable that E doesn't
> support this natively and I'm afraid the hack will stop working one day.
> 
> > > But either way, E is the most configurable window manager on the planet
> > > I'm pretty sure, so it should really have a way for me to ignore an app
> > > with broken directives that work against what I want and need.
> > 
> > the problem is the app still draws whatever it wants inside and that ends up
> > looking broken when it also then draws shadows etc. assuming it is
> > borderless. it's asking to have somethnig look really broke. the nocsd
> > preload thing is a much better.
> 
> I agree that the hack makes things look ok, but I also remember E
> allowing me to draw a border and putting a 2nd title bar around
> google-chrome back it was trying to be borderless for a while
> (thankfully it stopped that a while ago).
> So, I had 2 sets of minimize/maximize/close buttons. That was really not
> a big deal.
> I wanted the E title bar so that I can double click on it and collapse
> (roll up) the window into the title bar.
> Without a forced E title bar, I have no way to do this, and I get very
> sad ;)
> 
> > i can, but i think it's the wrong solution for your problem, and in general
> > i think its the wrong solution too.
>  
> It would be a user override for users who care and use cases that
> mandate it. If it's not vizually perfect, no a huge deal.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:34:14PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > Would you please consider re-allowing control of the menubar/border
> > > even if the app says otherwise?
> > 
> > also FYI you want to undo fixes to bug reports:
> > https://phab.enlightenment.org/T1963
> > 
> > so eithr you are unhappy or other people are unhappy and 
> > https://phab.enlightenment.org/T1940
> > where you'll find a screenshot of exactly what will happen if you start
> > having 2 borders. a window that looks totally wrong. 2 titlebars with a
> > shadow area around the inner area.
> 
> Forgive me if I suck, but I can't see the screenshots in the 2nd bug and
> the first bug gives me
> https://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-54a3d78d5c42f0.94186667.jpg which
> seems like a broken link?

https://phab.enlightenment.org/F12631

that one. that is the reason why i think this is totally the wrong path. the
evince window in the middle with an e titlebar and the CSD shadows and titlebar
inside of it. that is what you'd get without the nocsd thing. both are hacks.
the nocsd hack is a better hack.

> > you're going to have to convince other people don't like this happening that
> > being able to have this happen is a good thing. if we allow you to set a
> > border on borderless windows like gtk ones oyu end up with the above result
> > which is far worse than gtk3-nocsd.
> 
> Why would they care? It would be a non default option. E would restore
> the "set border style" option on those windows (where it is currently
> hidden) and let me change the border if I choose to. How would that make
> anyone unhappy since they'd have to explicitely ask for it?

because i have to go through and fix up a bunch of "frame offset" handling too
that handles hints that tell e what the shadow offsets are to the real frame on
the fly based on border style chose, undo the blocking of choosing that allows
you to shoot yourself in the foot and create the above unintended rendering
etc. ... and that'd bother people - me included, that it allows foot-shooting
where there is a better alternative solution like the nocsd preload.

> > your issue in the end lies with gtk/gnome and their design choices. as i
> > mentioned... you won't escape those as time goes on. in wayland it's CSD
> > anyway. and that's the future everyone is moving towards. you'll find it
> > harder and harder to fight this, and we will too and it just won't be worth
> > the effort.
> 
> Fair point. And how do I get double click roll up there?

you ask the gtk devs to support this. you move to wayland and you won't have it
anyway and everyone including us is heading in that direction. x is already
being considered the "old world" and it works solidly, but it's not really
worth investing a LOT of effort in anymore. :)

> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP
> 1024R/763BE901
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten 

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Sat, 3 Feb 2018 15:37:52 +1100 Daniel Kasak  said:

> Here's my take on this ...
> 
> I accept CSD is here to stay, and I admit that I've made extensive use of
> the GtkStack and GtkStackSwitcher widgets ( which embed tab-like navigators
> in the header bar ). However I understand the objection that it leads to
> inconsistencies across applications - some have an Enlightenment title bar,
> and some don't. It's not like applications on Linux have ever been
> consistent across the board. Multiple toolkits, window managers, etc, etc
> ... this is not a bad thing. Diversity is a strength, and you have to
> accept that not everyone will build toolkits, apps, etc, the way you'd like
> them to.https://phab.enlightenment.org/F12631

actually i would argue it's inconsistent if titlebars are done by wm and
content done by app. then most often titlebars/borders and app dont match style
and policies. there is this "object" that is a window that looks like some mix
of 2 different things. if you use efl + e they will match. use mutter + gtk
they will match. kwin + qt and they match. anything else is pot luck if they
match (very likely don't). so what csd does is it moves the line of consistency
out to cover the entire object that you resize/move around (the window) to be
consistent within itself.

> For those who object to CSD ... the best use of your time will most likely
> be in constructive work to address your issues, within the constraints that
> are being presented to you.
> 
> People say they've lost functionality. What functionality? In E, you can
> right-click on a window and get E's title-bar menu, exposing all the
> functionality that you'd get if you right-clicked on a title bar, including
> closing and killing applications. I don't see a loss in functionality. You
> can also set up mouse+key bindings for window actions - CSD doesn't in any
> way remove functionality that E provides.

here i agre with you. e.g. double-click to shade/roll up. even efl is bad here
with csd. we don't do that (or support it in csd/client side). we SHOULD. it'd
have to be a policy communicated between wm and apps or just some setting you
set in elm settings or something... like "double click shades, maximizes, or
does something else". i suspect gtk csd also is missing shading too as an
option.

> Both gtk+ and E are themeable. Make some gtk+ themes to make the header bar
> look like an E title bar, or make an E theme to make E title bars look like
> gtk+ CSD.
> 
> Frankly, the solution that some people are pushing for - that E render an
> additional border around CSD - is going to look ridiculous, and I can't
> imagine even those against CSD would be happy with it.

imagine no longer:

https://phab.enlightenment.org/F12631

it does look stupid indeed.

> Dan
> 
> On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Marc MERLIN  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:13:50PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > > So just to be clear, they're going to stop asking E to remove the title
> > > > bar? If so, great.
> > >
> > > the gtk3-nocsd thing makes that happen.
> >
> > Sure, but it's a hack. I expect it to break eventually, wouldn't you?
> > In other words, it works today, but I'm uncomfortable that E doesn't
> > support this natively and I'm afraid the hack will stop working one day.
> >
> > > > But either way, E is the most configurable window manager on the planet
> > > > I'm pretty sure, so it should really have a way for me to ignore an app
> > > > with broken directives that work against what I want and need.
> > >
> > > the problem is the app still draws whatever it wants inside and that
> > ends up
> > > looking broken when it also then draws shadows etc. assuming it is
> > borderless.
> > > it's asking to have somethnig look really broke. the nocsd preload thing
> > is
> > > a much better.
> >
> > I agree that the hack makes things look ok, but I also remember E
> > allowing me to draw a border and putting a 2nd title bar around
> > google-chrome back it was trying to be borderless for a while
> > (thankfully it stopped that a while ago).
> > So, I had 2 sets of minimize/maximize/close buttons. That was really not
> > a big deal.
> > I wanted the E title bar so that I can double click on it and collapse
> > (roll up) the window into the title bar.
> > Without a forced E title bar, I have no way to do this, and I get very
> > sad ;)
> >
> > > i can, but i think it's the wrong solution for your problem, and in
> > general i
> > > think its the wrong solution too.
> >
> > It would be a user override for users who care and use cases that
> > mandate it. If it's not vizually perfect, no a huge deal.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:34:14PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > > Would you please consider re-allowing control of the menubar/border
> > > > even if the app says otherwise?
> > >
> > > also FYI you want to undo fixes to bug reports:
> > > https://phab.enlightenment.org/T1963
> > >
> > 

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 03:37:52PM +1100, Daniel Kasak wrote:
> Here's my take on this ...
 
Thanks for your reply.
So I will freely admit that my ignorance on how some things work, may be
getting in the way.
Maybe you can help with my lost functionality.
I double click on the title bar, the application window rolls up into
the title bar.
How do I do this with CSD? 
(E calls it "shade" if that helps, and it's not in the right click menu,
which even if it were, it's more work to get to that, than a quick
roll/unroll with double click)

If I right click on gthumb title bar, I get the gtk menu which doesn't
know what shade is, so it's not there.
I have to alt right click, and guess what, even there shade is gone on
gthumb, but it's there on other apps.

> ... this is not a bad thing. Diversity is a strength, and you have to
> accept that not everyone will build toolkits, apps, etc, the way you'd like
> them to.
 
I don't agree on that point, it's never been the year of the desktop
because of how many incompatible tookits we have, how there are 5 (or
8?) different ways that you need to fix DPI and so forth. It's
ridiculous.
But that's another discussion...

> People say they've lost functionality. What functionality? In E, you can

See above. Shade is gone.

> Frankly, the solution that some people are pushing for - that E render an
> additional border around CSD - is going to look ridiculous, and I can't
> imagine even those against CSD would be happy with it.

It does not look great, but I don't care. I use shade all the time every
day, I get very unhappy if it's gone. 
A slightly imperfect look is a very small price to pay for me to get it
back :)
(but again, how it would look only matters to those who actually care to
get this and would specifically request it, so no one would otherwise be
impacted.
At the risk of repeating, E used to allow this, I have used it in the
past (admittedly several years ago now), and it worked. I had to
explicitely re-add a border to a borderless window, and you could not do
this by mistake or had the right to complain if you did so and then
didn't like the look so much :)

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:13:50PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > So just to be clear, they're going to stop asking E to remove the title
> > bar? If so, great.
> 
> the gtk3-nocsd thing makes that happen.
 
Sure, but it's a hack. I expect it to break eventually, wouldn't you?
In other words, it works today, but I'm uncomfortable that E doesn't
support this natively and I'm afraid the hack will stop working one day.

> > But either way, E is the most configurable window manager on the planet
> > I'm pretty sure, so it should really have a way for me to ignore an app
> > with broken directives that work against what I want and need.
> 
> the problem is the app still draws whatever it wants inside and that ends up
> looking broken when it also then draws shadows etc. assuming it is borderless.
> it's asking to have somethnig look really broke. the nocsd preload thing is
> a much better.

I agree that the hack makes things look ok, but I also remember E
allowing me to draw a border and putting a 2nd title bar around
google-chrome back it was trying to be borderless for a while
(thankfully it stopped that a while ago).
So, I had 2 sets of minimize/maximize/close buttons. That was really not
a big deal.
I wanted the E title bar so that I can double click on it and collapse
(roll up) the window into the title bar.
Without a forced E title bar, I have no way to do this, and I get very
sad ;)

> i can, but i think it's the wrong solution for your problem, and in general i
> think its the wrong solution too.
 
It would be a user override for users who care and use cases that
mandate it. If it's not vizually perfect, no a huge deal.

On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 06:34:14PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > Would you please consider re-allowing control of the menubar/border
> > even if the app says otherwise?
> 
> also FYI you want to undo fixes to bug reports:
> https://phab.enlightenment.org/T1963
> 
> so eithr you are unhappy or other people are unhappy and 
> https://phab.enlightenment.org/T1940
> where you'll find a screenshot of exactly what will happen if you start having
> 2 borders. a window that looks totally wrong. 2 titlebars with a shadow area
> around the inner area.

Forgive me if I suck, but I can't see the screenshots in the 2nd bug and
the first bug gives me
https://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-54a3d78d5c42f0.94186667.jpg which
seems like a broken link?

> you're going to have to convince other people don't like this happening that
> being able to have this happen is a good thing. if we allow you to set a 
> border
> on borderless windows like gtk ones oyu end up with the above result which is
> far worse than gtk3-nocsd.

Why would they care? It would be a non default option. E would restore
the "set border style" option on those windows (where it is currently
hidden) and let me change the border if I choose to. How would that make
anyone unhappy since they'd have to explicitely ask for it?

> your issue in the end lies with gtk/gnome and their design choices. as i
> mentioned... you won't escape those as time goes on. in wayland it's CSD
> anyway. and that's the future everyone is moving towards. you'll find it 
> harder
> and harder to fight this, and we will too and it just won't be worth the 
> effort.

Fair point. And how do I get double click roll up there?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:29:25 -0800 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 02:15:28AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > well i think it's because with gtk3 now the titlebar is also like the menu
> > bar and "toolbar" and so on... this is their ux design direction. it
> > removes as much of the "titlebar" bits as it can without removing actual
> > functionality. it also removes the request to be borderless etc.
> 
> So just to be clear, they're going to stop asking E to remove the title
> bar? If so, great.
> 
> But either way, E is the most configurable window manager on the planet
> I'm pretty sure, so it should really have a way for me to ignore an app
> with broken directives that work against what I want and need.
> 
> Afterall, it's my desktop, not theirs :)
> 
> Would you please consider re-allowing control of the menubar/border
> even if the app says otherwise?

also FYI you want to undo fixes to bug reports:

https://phab.enlightenment.org/T1963

so eithr you are unhappy or other people are unhappy and 

https://phab.enlightenment.org/T1940

where you'll find a screenshot of exactly what will happen if you start having
2 borders. a window that looks totally wrong. 2 titlebars with a shadow area
around the inner area.

you're going to have to convince other people don't like this happening that
being able to have this happen is a good thing. if we allow you to set a border
on borderless windows like gtk ones oyu end up with the above result which is
far worse than gtk3-nocsd.

your issue in the end lies with gtk/gnome and their design choices. as i
mentioned... you won't escape those as time goes on. in wayland it's CSD
anyway. and that's the future everyone is moving towards. you'll find it harder
and harder to fight this, and we will too and it just won't be worth the effort.

i don't see an argument for doing the work to undo fixes to the above issues
and related code when it will result in a far WORSE situation (see screenshot
with double borders and shadow area), than the nocsd preload solution. that's
work to do an EXTRA solution that is worse than the nocsd one, AND it will also
go against bug reports in the past(specifically if you set the border).

> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP
> 1024R/763BE901
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:29:25 -0800 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 02:15:28AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > well i think it's because with gtk3 now the titlebar is also like the menu
> > bar and "toolbar" and so on... this is their ux design direction. it
> > removes as much of the "titlebar" bits as it can without removing actual
> > functionality. it also removes the request to be borderless etc.
> 
> So just to be clear, they're going to stop asking E to remove the title
> bar? If so, great.

the gtk3-nocsd thing makes that happen.

> But either way, E is the most configurable window manager on the planet
> I'm pretty sure, so it should really have a way for me to ignore an app
> with broken directives that work against what I want and need.

the problem is the app still draws whatever it wants inside and that ends up
looking broken when it also then draws shadows etc. assuming it is borderless.
it's asking to have somethnig look really broke. the nocsd preload thing is
a much better.

> Afterall, it's my desktop, not theirs :)
> 
> Would you please consider re-allowing control of the menubar/border
> even if the app says otherwise?

i can, but i think it's the wrong solution for your problem, and in general i
think its the wrong solution too.

> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP
> 1024R/763BE901
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 02:15:28AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> well i think it's because with gtk3 now the titlebar is also like the menu bar
> and "toolbar" and so on... this is their ux design direction. it removes as
> much of the "titlebar" bits as it can without removing actual functionality. 
> it
> also removes the request to be borderless etc.

So just to be clear, they're going to stop asking E to remove the title
bar? If so, great.

But either way, E is the most configurable window manager on the planet
I'm pretty sure, so it should really have a way for me to ignore an app
with broken directives that work against what I want and need.

Afterall, it's my desktop, not theirs :)

Would you please consider re-allowing control of the menubar/border
even if the app says otherwise?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Davide Andreoli]

2018-02-01 20:15 GMT+01:00 maderios :

> On 02/01/2018 07:42 PM, Davide Andreoli wrote:
>
> Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd
>>>
>>>
>> Fantastic!! I wasn't aware of this tool and I was silently suffering for
>> those (f***ing) gtk csd that never do what I want.
>>
>> Available in Arch Linux Aur :)
> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/gtk3-nocsd-git/
>

yep, installed from Aur, works like a charm


>
> --
> Maderios
>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> enlightenment-users mailing list
> enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
>
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[maderios]

On 02/01/2018 07:42 PM, Davide Andreoli wrote:


Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd



Fantastic!! I wasn't aware of this tool and I was silently suffering for
those (f***ing) gtk csd that never do what I want.


Available in Arch Linux Aur :)
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/gtk3-nocsd-git/

--
Maderios

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Davide Andreoli]

2018-02-01 0:19 GMT+01:00 Ross Vandegrift :

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:10:35PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > I'm not trying to get rid of the gtk one, I just want to force the E one
> > on top.
> > This used to be possible, now it seems not to be.
> > Some other window managers allow this. Can E re-introduce this
> > control/functionality?
>
> No, E doesn't have any control over the client-side decorations.  You
> need to tell GTK not to suppress window manager controls.
>
>
> Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd
>

Fantastic!! I wasn't aware of this tool and I was silently suffering for
those (f***ing) gtk csd that never do what I want.

Thanks, Thanks, Thanks  :D



> If you're on recent Debian, apt install gtk3-nocsd will do the trick.
>
> Ross
>
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> enlightenment-users mailing list
> enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
>
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018 08:20:53 -0800 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:23:23PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > Well, not sure what went wrong, but it's workig now, thanks.
> > 
> > and now you don't end up with 2 titlebars. remember gtk ALSO draws the
> > shadow (if there is one) and thi will add extra padding/gap of transparent
> > shadow between the CSD border and e's border and really it all just looks
> > horrible. the best solution is what you are doing now... get gtk to stop
> > doing CSD
> > 
> > but note. CSD is becoming more common especially thanks to wayland being CSD
> > out of the box, and frankly doing things like "tabs in the titlebar" isn't
> > really a doable thing in general without CSD (some may want tabs, tabs +
> > other controls, perhaps a range of extended controls, status's and buttons
> > and so on), so CSD seems to be the direction. even EFL can now do CSD in
> > x11 (but its off by default. an env var enables it). vincent is looking to
> > add CSD to efl windows support too (to be honest... efl looks bad with
> > borders that don't match he content... so CSD can fix that).
> 
> I must be missing something, but I do have 2 title bars with 
> gtk3-nocsd gthumb
> The only thing this removes is that I don't have 2 sets of
> minimize/maximize buttons, which I well would have been ok with.

well i think it's because with gtk3 now the titlebar is also like the menu bar
and "toolbar" and so on... this is their ux design direction. it removes as
much of the "titlebar" bits as it can without removing actual functionality. it
also removes the request to be borderless etc.

> Basically, this is no better outside of removing 3 small icons in the
> corner, than E adding the title bar on top of the unmodified window.
> Another way to say, that if E just let me ignore what the app is trying
> to force on me, I would have been entirely fine without this probably
> will break later .so hack.

actually it'll remove the drop shadow too that would otherwise be there too
around the border (well assuming it was the default gtk out of the box theme
that had this)

> Should I send a screenshot (which will be blocked by the list again), or
> is what I'm saying making sense, somewhat?
> 
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP
> 1024R/763BE901
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 06:23:23PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > Well, not sure what went wrong, but it's workig now, thanks.
> 
> and now you don't end up with 2 titlebars. remember gtk ALSO draws the shadow
> (if there is one) and thi will add extra padding/gap of transparent shadow
> between the CSD border and e's border and really it all just looks horrible.
> the best solution is what you are doing now... get gtk to stop doing CSD
> 
> but note. CSD is becoming more common especially thanks to wayland being CSD
> out of the box, and frankly doing things like "tabs in the titlebar" isn't
> really a doable thing in general without CSD (some may want tabs, tabs + other
> controls, perhaps a range of extended controls, status's and buttons and so
> on), so CSD seems to be the direction. even EFL can now do CSD in x11 (but its
> off by default. an env var enables it). vincent is looking to add CSD to efl
> windows support too (to be honest... efl looks bad with borders that don't
> match he content... so CSD can fix that).

I must be missing something, but I do have 2 title bars with 
gtk3-nocsd gthumb
The only thing this removes is that I don't have 2 sets of
minimize/maximize buttons, which I well would have been ok with.

Basically, this is no better outside of removing 3 small icons in the
corner, than E adding the title bar on top of the unmodified window.
Another way to say, that if E just let me ignore what the app is trying
to force on me, I would have been entirely fine without this probably
will break later .so hack.

Should I send a screenshot (which will be blocked by the list again), or
is what I'm saying making sense, somewhat?

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 02:57:33PM +1100, Daniel Kasak wrote:
> Oooh nice. I never noticed gthumb before :)
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Ross Vandegrift  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:54:53PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:19:11PM -0800, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > > > Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd
> > > > If you're on recent Debian, apt install gtk3-nocsd will do the trick.
> > >
> > > I did read about this, but never got it to work.
> > > saruman:~$ gtk3-nocsd gthumb
> > > does nothing helpful, my E border on top is still missing.
> > > Am I doing it wrong?
> >
> > Sounds like something's broken.  It works great for me, gthumb included.
> >
> > If you installed it yourself, the gtk3-nocsd script probably can't find
> > the shared object it needs to preload.  Maybe something helpful here:
> > $ sh -xe $(which gtk3-nocsd) gthumb

Well, not sure what went wrongk, but it's workig now, thanks.

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Daniel Kasak]

Oooh nice. I never noticed gthumb before :)

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Ross Vandegrift  wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:54:53PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:19:11PM -0800, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > > Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd
> > > If you're on recent Debian, apt install gtk3-nocsd will do the trick.
> >
> > I did read about this, but never got it to work.
> > saruman:~$ gtk3-nocsd gthumb
> > does nothing helpful, my E border on top is still missing.
> > Am I doing it wrong?
>
> Sounds like something's broken.  It works great for me, gthumb included.
>
> If you installed it yourself, the gtk3-nocsd script probably can't find
> the shared object it needs to preload.  Maybe something helpful here:
> $ sh -xe $(which gtk3-nocsd) gthumb
>
> Ross
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> enlightenment-users mailing list
> enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
>
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Ross Vandegrift]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:54:53PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:19:11PM -0800, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd
> > If you're on recent Debian, apt install gtk3-nocsd will do the trick.
> 
> I did read about this, but never got it to work.
> saruman:~$ gtk3-nocsd gthumb
> does nothing helpful, my E border on top is still missing.
> Am I doing it wrong?

Sounds like something's broken.  It works great for me, gthumb included.

If you installed it yourself, the gtk3-nocsd script probably can't find
the shared object it needs to preload.  Maybe something helpful here:
$ sh -xe $(which gtk3-nocsd) gthumb

Ross

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:19:11PM -0800, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:10:35PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > I'm not trying to get rid of the gtk one, I just want to force the E one
> > on top.
> > This used to be possible, now it seems not to be.
> > Some other window managers allow this. Can E re-introduce this
> > control/functionality?
> 
> No, E doesn't have any control over the client-side decorations.  You
> need to tell GTK not to suppress window manager controls.
 
I'm talking about the menu bar that E adds on top of the application.
The one I can right click on and select window/border/border style

E draws this, controls it, and does not let me stop an app from removing
it, although it used to in the past.
Other window managers have the same problem and some have an override to
ignore clients telling the WM not to draw borders.
 
> Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd
> If you're on recent Debian, apt install gtk3-nocsd will do the trick.

I did read about this, but never got it to work.
saruman:~$ gtk3-nocsd gthumb
does nothing helpful, my E border on top is still missing.
Am I doing it wrong?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Ross Vandegrift]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 03:10:35PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> I'm not trying to get rid of the gtk one, I just want to force the E one
> on top.
> This used to be possible, now it seems not to be.
> Some other window managers allow this. Can E re-introduce this
> control/functionality?

No, E doesn't have any control over the client-side decorations.  You
need to tell GTK not to suppress window manager controls.


Check out https://github.com/PCMan/gtk3-nocsd
If you're on recent Debian, apt install gtk3-nocsd will do the trick.

Ross


--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 07:19:38AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> gthumb is explicitly asking to do this... well gthumb the client. gtk is 
> really

I know

> doing it. it says "give me a borderless window". then gtk will draw shadows
> (dropshadows) AND borders inside that borderless window. if e were to force a
> border on you will just get DOUBLE titlebars because gtk will draw its own
> shadow and titlebar etc. anyway. your solution needs to be over in gtk land to

The gtk titlebar is crap and doesn't do what I want or need, nor do I
expect it ever will. I now I will get a double top bar if E adds one,
but I'm fine with that. I want the control E gives me and that
gthumb/gtk never will.
Older E used to allow me to do this (afterall, I'm the enduser, so
hopefully I know what I want/need better :) ).

> not do this somehow.. and even then in some cases i suspect it's not going to
> be possible as gtk now encourages clients to put real application CONTENT in
> titlebars/borders so the app is dependent on a client-side decoration for
> functionality.

I'm not trying to get rid of the gtk one, I just want to force the E one
on top.
This used to be possible, now it seems not to be.
Some other window managers allow this. Can E re-introduce this
control/functionality?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

Re: [e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 12:16:32 -0800 Marc MERLIN  said:

> I still have this problem.
> 
> I just can't seem to get gthumb fixed to stop telling the WM to not
> decorate it.
> It's my desktop, ultimately it's my choice what I want/need and I'm
> quite annoyed that e21 seems to give me no control over gthumb's
> borders.
> 
> Is there really no way to regain control over it and add it the borders
> I need?

gthumb is explicitly asking to do this... well gthumb the client. gtk is really
doing it. it says "give me a borderless window". then gtk will draw shadows
(dropshadows) AND borders inside that borderless window. if e were to force a
border on you will just get DOUBLE titlebars because gtk will draw its own
shadow and titlebar etc. anyway. your solution needs to be over in gtk land to
not do this somehow.. and even then in some cases i suspect it's not going to
be possible as gtk now encourages clients to put real application CONTENT in
titlebars/borders so the app is dependent on a client-side decoration for
functionality.

> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP
> 1024R/763BE901
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> enlightenment-users mailing list
> enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users

[e-users] How to do force window decorations on broken apps like gthumb?

[Marc MERLIN]

I still have this problem.

I just can't seem to get gthumb fixed to stop telling the WM to not
decorate it.
It's my desktop, ultimately it's my choice what I want/need and I'm
quite annoyed that e21 seems to give me no control over gthumb's
borders.

Is there really no way to regain control over it and add it the borders
I need?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
___
enlightenment-users mailing list
enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users