Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
) So, except for a few niches, there is no place for Hydrogen. Of course, in a world void of scientists and filled with people who make vision papers based on someone else's fantasies, there is only one bright future - everything will be converted over to Hydrogen soon. Better hope that H2 is not a loser, because then we are all losers. Hope has never changed the laws of Physics that I am aware of. That is the reason that you get such a push-back on this list, because there are plenty people here who do not have an opinion about Hydrogen (opinions have also not changed Physics) but who *understand* how efficiency work in terms of Physics and therefor they can *calculate* that Hydrogen is a losing proposition. It was a clear red flag when you avoided at all cost to discuss the technical details or Physics, you are now even blatantly saying that you do not want to discuss that topic. Either you *know* that this is the biggest problem of FCV and you prefer to avoid that subject, or you are truly unaware of the hot air balloon that is being passed around and which will cost the Californian taxpaers many millions of dollars without resuting in anything that will actually help to improve clean air. All the more troubling that you, 30 year clean air activist, are pursuing this non-option with so much vigor!!! For the record - I have no vested interest in or outside Hydrogen. I just have a BEV as daily driver and I am passionate about energy efficiency, because the best way to clean up pollution is to avoid creating it in the first place. And my background allows me to understand laws of Physics, which often leads me to clash with opinions that are based on anything but reality. In case I came across as argumentative, please excuse me, I am passionate about these subjects but I am always open to discuss the data and the Physics of possible solutions to evaluate what would be the best possible solution and which one does not fly. I have heard too many fantasies about Hydrogen Fuel Cell that it sometimes gets me on my soapbox. If you do not want to discuss data or Physics of FCV then I will take that you have a reason to hide the truth about Hydrogen's dark side and possibly you have a vested interest - I have seen those. But I have also seen Fuel Cell development councils that cancel the meetings on Hydrogen Fuel Cell, because they saw the light that it was just a hype, misleading governments worldwide to try and generate grants without chance of ever producing an energy efficient solution that would make a business case work. I applaud people who are flexibel and transparent enough to take new input and realize that they must change something, because what they were doing was not good. I, for one, hope that we can avoid strugging through H2 as loser and immediately go for a viable option as future. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/1def8c17/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] $1.7 Trillion reinvested
$5/W sounds hideously expensive. It's nearer $2.6/W installed here in the UK! But as far as your analysis goes, you haven't factored in the money that hundreds of companies that supply the armed services have made out of the war. That means jobs which keeps the politicians in power and everyone's a winner... except for all those who are killed, wounded, displaced etc etc. Of course, you could still have lots of jobs but in the renewable energy sector instead but try telling that to your average politician or gargantuan ICE SUV driver! MW On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:32, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: The purported cost of the Iraqi War so far has been $1.7 trillion (1.7 x 10^12).Whether this is war was worth it is **not** up for discussion here. This is strictly an exercise in examining what effect those funds would have had if applied differently. I would appreciate your vetting the thoughts and numbers below. The question is: What if those funds had been used for installing solar panels for recharging a fleet of electric vehicles? What does a “back of the envelope” set of calculations indicate as to whether such an investment would be viable and possibly pursued further? Assume for discussion purposes: 1)Each panel is rated at 250 watts. (Ref: http://www.suncityenergy.com/solarpanelratings/) This is in a common size (+/- a few watts).The rating assumes a standard irradiance of 1,000 whr /m^2. 2)Each panel costs $1250 installed which is $5/watt for a commercially installed panel. Some will self install and some will have a higher commercially installed array. 3)Each panel receives an average of 2 kwhr/m^2/day.This is doable in almost all parts of the lower 48 States and Hawaii in December, the worse month for solar over all.The Puget Sound - Portland (OR) and Alaska areas are the two exceptions.Most areas referenced below are well above 2 kwhr/m^2/day; some with a factor of 3 or greater. (Ref: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/1961-1990/redbook/atlas) 4)How far will an electric vehicle go using 1 kwhr of electricity.? ·Pickups can travel roughly 2 to 3 miles. ·Sedans can travel roughly 3 to 5 miles. ·A Tesla Model S with an EPA rated range of 265 miles with a 85 kwhr pack onboard produces a calculated average about 3 miles per kwhr. ·A range of 3 miles per kwhr was used below as an average To derive the amount of mileage that can be driven in a day electrically, the above panels and factors were multiplied together like so: _$1.7 x 10^12 _* _250w panel_ * _1 kw _* 1 hr * _2 kwhr sol m^2/day_ * _3 mi_ $1250 panel10^3w 1 kwhr std m^2/daykwhr This produces a result of 2.04 billion miles. How does this equate to miles driven per day using an equivalent gasoline powered sedan? Assume for discussion purposes: 1)The USA uses 20 million Barrels of Oil Per Day (BOPD).In recent years, this figure has decreased to about 18 million BOPD. 2)Each barrel of oil can be refined to produce 18 gallons of gasoline.This is close to the actual production figure. To derive the amount of average car miles that can be driven in a day using gasoline, the above factors were multiplied together like so: 20 million BOPD * 18 gallons of gasoline/BOPD * 20 Miles/Gallon = 7.2 billion miles/day We drive roughly 7.200 billion miles per day. 21 million BOPD over 7.2 billion miles driven per day produces a rough factor of 3 (x10^-3).If we multiply 2.04 billion electric only miles driven times this factor, we would equate this to using about 6 million BOPD.This is roughly the amount of our oil imports. While a $1.7 trillion dollar investment in solar panels will not be a substitute for all the oil we use, it would likely reduce our energy consumption by 6 million BOPD; enough for us to be ‘energy independent’ with maybe a little conservation added. How long would it take to pay this investment off? If electricity, through net metering, is $1.00 per 10 kwhr and gasoline is $4 per gallon, and a vehicle can be driven the same amount of miles on either 10 kwhr of electricity or 1 gallon of gasoline, the difference is $3.00 which would be allocated to paying off the $1.7 trillion dollar investment. We use 360 million gallons of gasoline a day, (20 million BOPD * 18 gallons/Barrel).$1.7 x 10^12/(0.360 gallons x 10^9 * 3) = 1.574 x 10^3 days or 4.31 years.Not too shabby. This is a very simplistic scenario where a lot of details and other costs that have to be worked out such as the cost of a pack; electrical storage, production, and transmission issues; (in)efficiency issues; weather related issues (the sun does not always shine); and utility regulatory/business issues.The bottom line is that this looks like it is doable financially with potentially solvable issues. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)
But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. I disagree. The only reason we could not power all our transportation needs from electricity is when you are operating somewhere that has none and it is not practical to provide it - ie in the middle of no-where and on a short timescale (ie no time to install PV or whatever). For that, bio-fuels would work perfectly well and you could use ordinary ICE vehicles with it so no need to spend (yet more) countless billions developing FCVs and their equally insanely expensive infrastructure. I'm sure you are saying What about those long distance trucks?. Well, aside from the obvious fact that most of this sort of transport should be on trains (preferably electric ones) there is no technical reason why trucks couldn't be EVs too and definitely not so if major highways were equipped with inductive power transfer technology. This is simple to install and compared to what they are talking about spending on an H2 refuelling infrastructure, cheap as chips (fries)! MW On 26 Jun 2014, at 15:32, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Folks, EV's and Hydorgen fuel cell cars are NOT in competition. (except in Toyota's fantasy dreams).. There is no need to get worked up. EV's are far, far better for local travel and daily commuting (80% of our miles). But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. As everyone points out, Hydrogen makes no sense compared to an EV in *all* aspects for what EV's do best. But we need to continue to explore it for when HYDROGEN might become a byproduct of daily peak grid excess renewable energy capture (no matter how inefficient). EVs and FCV's are completely different applications. And only the media and others who think anything with 4 wheels and a GO pedal should do everything-for-everyone sees them as both very limited and the same... Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via EV Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Mark, Please stop wittering on and actually address some of the points the anti H2 FCV commentators have made here. Principally, please explain how you believe H2 FCVs will work in terms of efficiency Vs (real ie plug-in) EVs? MW ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVs4sale: Fiero Rampage Porsche VW Opel Focus Leaf Tesla-S
Fiero Electric Vehicle Project
16 hours ago ... About 50% complete Fiero electric vehicle conversion
project. Based on a solid, rust free 1987 V6 Fiero SE from Arizona with 39k
miles.
https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/cto/4537738056.html
Custom 1983 Dodge Rampage EV electric vehicle
17 hours ago ... Custom Dodge Rampage EV-electric vehicle, Dodges version of
an El Camino or Ranchero built in very limited numbers early 80's. This low
...
http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/cto/4537685799.html
PORSCHE 914 ELECTRIC VEHICLE
Jun 16, 2014 ... PORSCHE 914 ELECTRIC VEHICLE - $5000 (LA MIRADA). image 1 ·
image 2 · image 3. (google map) (yahoo map). condition: good.
https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/4523195827.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4510043065.html
70 Classic VW Electric Show Car - $17000 (dublin, CA)
http://stockton.craigslist.org/cto/4520978114.html
1970 Opel GT with electric motor and transmission - $600 (Stockton, CA)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/4531071226.html
2011 Jonway 2-Door SUV [glider] - $1500 (santa rosa, CA)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/4513334191.html
Take Over My Ford Electric Car Lease - $380 (milpitas, CA)
http://stockton.craigslist.org/cto/4426698174.html
2013 Ford Electric Vehicle - $27500 (Tracy, Ca)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/4536512052.html
2011 Nissan LEAF Hatchback 4dr HB SL Hatchback - $15188 (San Francisco)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4510323468.html
2011 Nissan Leaf, Ocean Blue with 26K miles, Carpool Stickers - $13700
(dublin, CA)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ctd/4488975814.html
Certified: 2013 Nissan LEAF Hatchback SV Hatchback only 3,195 miles - $22627
(San Francisco)
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/4495886641.html
2011 Nissan Leaf SL - $12900 (Woodland)
2011 Nissan Leaf SL Electric Vehicle
Jun 14, 2014 ... No gasoline needed, total electric car. Black body with
grey interior. Disc player, backup camera, level 1 charger(120 vac)
included. 50 mile ...
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/cto/4520243360.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/4536931790.html
2013 Tesla Model S 60kwh - $76500 (fairfield / vacaville)
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[EVDL] Free donor: 2000 Hyundai Accent Hatchback GS in Santa Clara, CA
[reference
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-Delivery-Status-Notification-Failure-tp4670130.html
]
Monica, has a 2000 Hyundai Accent Hatchback GS donor that is free to a
person that is going to convert it to an EV. You come pick it up.
Details she provided:
2000 Hyndai Accent Hatchback GS. It has served me for 14 years and
more than 176,666 miles. Unfortunately, the vehicle no longer
passes smog ...
Contact: Monica via marman (at) my.smccd.edu
[Do Not contact brucedp, use the email address above to contact her, the
owner]
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)
Your RIGHT Martin, I used to drive semi's or Lories, and we paid $1,000 per week in diesel(paraffin) expense with electric we could have saved $750 and for that savings we could have spent three hours per day recharging and still have made a profit. My old friends who use compressed Natural Gas in their diesel engines have a difficult time finding fuel, and that infrastructure is established. Local route fleets are no problem they have a refueling station at their terminal, Over-the-Road is more difficult... *Dennis Lee Miles * *Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.* *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* Dade City, Florida 33523 USA On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 4:51 AM, Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. I disagree. The only reason we could not power all our transportation needs from electricity is when you are operating somewhere that has none and it is not practical to provide it - ie in the middle of no-where and on a short timescale (ie no time to install PV or whatever). For that, bio-fuels would work perfectly well and you could use ordinary ICE vehicles with it so no need to spend (yet more) countless billions developing FCVs and their equally insanely expensive infrastructure. I'm sure you are saying What about those long distance trucks?. Well, aside from the obvious fact that most of this sort of transport should be on trains (preferably electric ones) there is no technical reason why trucks couldn't be EVs too and definitely not so if major highways were equipped with inductive power transfer technology. This is simple to install and compared to what they are talking about spending on an H2 refuelling infrastructure, cheap as chips (fries)! MW On 26 Jun 2014, at 15:32, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Folks, EV's and Hydorgen fuel cell cars are NOT in competition. (except in Toyota's fantasy dreams).. There is no need to get worked up. EV's are far, far better for local travel and daily commuting (80% of our miles). But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. As everyone points out, Hydrogen makes no sense compared to an EV in *all* aspects for what EV's do best. But we need to continue to explore it for when HYDROGEN might become a byproduct of daily peak grid excess renewable energy capture (no matter how inefficient). EVs and FCV's are completely different applications. And only the media and others who think anything with 4 wheels and a GO pedal should do everything-for-everyone sees them as both very limited and the same... Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via EV Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Mark, Please stop wittering on and actually address some of the points the anti H2 FCV commentators have made here. Principally, please explain how you believe H2 FCVs will work in terms of efficiency Vs (real ie plug-in) EVs? MW ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/a52e3175/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Congratulations, Mr. Van de Water
Rustybkts, (Rusty Buckets?) I was only being dramatic. Although my Grandfather emigrated to the USA from Wales in about 1905 He died before my birth. I have had little freign contact except old movies with the exception of the two years in Japan servicing aircraft in the vietnam era (1968 to 1970) I could have said Ah-Soh Mr. Van de Water in my best Charlie Chan imitation if you would prefer... Did you notice the Revelation that the Fool-Cell cars carry a SEVEN TIMES each premium over the BEV for alternative fuel credits in California, for the manufacturers? That, I believe, is driving the FCV model emergence, at present. But, with only four Hydrogen fueling stations (and all those in southern California) Not many people will lease one, and the manufacturers will not actually sell them ! I have heard also they only a less than 100 mile range hydrogen tank and you will be required to live close to one of the hydrogen stations even to lease one. They are unwilling to sell me or lease one to me, because I don't live in California. *Dennis Lee Miles * *Director **E.V.T.I. Inc.* *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* evprofes...@evprofessor.com *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* Dade City, Florida 33523 USA On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 3:03 AM, rustybkts via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Although on holiday floating off Croatia on a 40' yacht, with the wonders of 3G wifi, I have been following this thread with interest and am so pleased Mr Abramovich has been outed. Hydrogen really is a non starter if we are to have an efficient fuel for the future and it is only big oil that keeps it in the picture. My only worry is that Dennis seems to think that the Welsh populace talk and sound like 1960's bowler hatted London bankers. As fellow Brits on this forum such as Martin will well know, anyone saying Jolly Good Show, especially if they are Welsh would be instantly castigated and even black balled. :-) Again, thank you Mr Van de Water for outing this self interested Troll. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Congratulations-Mr-Van-de-Water-tp4670151p4670157.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/1add436a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)
Yep, biofuels are a better short term solution. The technology to use and distribute them exists. The production is improving and, I believe, will be done much more efficiently than current (and using food crops is a disaster). Hydrogen can have its niches but I just don't see it being practical to carry around small bombs everywhere nor does it make sense to try to overrule physics. In the mean time, on with the development of better batteries or capacitors! Or ideas not yet thought of. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 27-Jun-14 1:51:59 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax) But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. I disagree. The only reason we could not power all our transportation needs from electricity is when you are operating somewhere that has none and it is not practical to provide it - ie in the middle of no-where and on a short timescale (ie no time to install PV or whatever). For that, bio-fuels would work perfectly well and you could use ordinary ICE vehicles with it so no need to spend (yet more) countless billions developing FCVs and their equally insanely expensive infrastructure. I'm sure you are saying What about those long distance trucks?. Well, aside from the obvious fact that most of this sort of transport should be on trains (preferably electric ones) there is no technical reason why trucks couldn't be EVs too and definitely not so if major highways were equipped with inductive power transfer technology. This is simple to install and compared to what they are talking about spending on an H2 refuelling infrastructure, cheap as chips (fries)! MW On 26 Jun 2014, at 15:32, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Folks, EV's and Hydorgen fuel cell cars are NOT in competition. (except in Toyota's fantasy dreams).. There is no need to get worked up. EV's are far, far better for local travel and daily commuting (80% of our miles). But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. As everyone points out, Hydrogen makes no sense compared to an EV in *all* aspects for what EV's do best. But we need to continue to explore it for when HYDROGEN might become a byproduct of daily peak grid excess renewable energy capture (no matter how inefficient). EVs and FCV's are completely different applications. And only the media and others who think anything with 4 wheels and a GO pedal should do everything-for-everyone sees them as both very limited and the same... Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via EV Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Mark, Please stop wittering on and actually address some of the points the anti H2 FCV commentators have made here. Principally, please explain how you believe H2 FCVs will work in terms of efficiency Vs (real ie plug-in) EVs? MW ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Twin 8 Coupler
Is there a company that makes a coupler for mechanically connecting two ADC 8-inch motors end-to-end? Thanks, Bill ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
with opinions that are based on anything but reality. In case I came across as argumentative, please excuse me, I am passionate about these subjects but I am always open to discuss the data and the Physics of possible solutions to evaluate what would be the best possible solution and which one does not fly. I have heard too many fantasies about Hydrogen Fuel Cell that it sometimes gets me on my soapbox. If you do not want to discuss data or Physics of FCV then I will take that you have a reason to hide the truth about Hydrogen's dark side and possibly you have a vested interest - I have seen those. But I have also seen Fuel Cell development councils that cancel the meetings on Hydrogen Fuel Cell, because they saw the light that it was just a hype, misleading governments worldwide to try and generate grants without chance of ever producing an energy efficient solution that would make a business case work. I applaud people who are flexibel and transparent enough to take new input and realize that they must change something, because what they were doing was not good. I, for one, hope that we can avoid strugging through H2 as loser and immediately go for a viable option as future. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Most often that's natural gas (and IIRC the process produces more CO2 than getting an equivalent amount of energy by directly burning the gas). The process produces less than the petroleum we're trying to replace it with. Citation needed. And the tailpipe emissions (the main driver for the regs) are zero. If the anti-BEV crowd can flog the old canard that BEVs just transfer emissions to powerplant stacks, then they should also note that FCVs transfer emissions to the hydrogen production plants. Do they? David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/a42a9998/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Can you tell us how the survey was worded? The one resulting in a desire for renewable fuels? On June 26, 2014 11:25:14 AM CST, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics is also that most of the power it uses is not renewable? Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have SOLAR or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities. It is -not- a coincidence that those who want to be part of the future of clean energy do both. SO -never- use the published utility mix to derive carbon impact of EV's without dividing it at least in HALF even today to account for the demographics of EV buyers 50% of which use 100% emissions free energy. Very interesting and promising statistic. Do you have a cite? This is the low-hanging fruit. Great to see what people will do given a choice. Good sign for future of renewables. As an aside, an OEM rep told me point blank our customers want renewable fuels. What % of electricity comes from solar right now? Though the grid maybe 40% coal in some places, you must apply these corrections for EV electricity: 1) 50% of EV buyers use only 100% renewable energy for charging 2) The EV is about 3 times more efficient in total energy per mile than gasoline As a result 40% times 50% times 33% gives only about 7% of EV energy comes from coal (and it only gets better every day). Not the 100% stack emissions that the climate change deniers want you to believe. I don't think that's right either. Too simplistic. GREET model data is better. Right now, there is NO silver bullet. YES there is! and it is EV's and solar/wind. When you say right now you are pessimistically using today's pitiful 2% contribution of solar on the grid, but that includes 98% of decades old LEGACY systems. No, I'm not using that assumption. I am talking about vehicles, not the source of the energy. I am assuming that one size does not fit all. If you don't provide a ZEV that works for them, they will use an ICE. Even for existing ZEV users. A recent post had a died-in-the-wool BEV user talking about how they reluctantly had to use their ICE to take someone to the airport. Point is, you need every emission reduction you can get, and every possible way to change out the fleet to ZEV. BEVs are just one part of a mix that will change over time. FCEVs are an important part, too, and in fact expected to exceed BEVs in the mix. The market and advances in technology will determine how that eventually looks. When I see right now I don't see the 2%, I see the 400% annual growth *rate* of renewables and EV's and the 20% decline of coal, and gasoline imports! I see the 93% instant *average* reduction in carbon emissions for each new EV on the road. Or, for half of us that subscribe to 100% renewable energy, a 100% reduction. Bob, WB4aPR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/845e2a8f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions)
Ø Can you tell us how the survey was worded? Here is the exact wording: (note, it is actually 60% in this study if you include those that would signup if they could): Many PEV owners have solar panels on their roofs. 42% of respondents have solar panels, 18% consider installation, and 40% have no plan to install. “ From: http://pubs.its.ucdavis.edu/download_pdf.php?id=1839 *From:* Chris Meier [mailto:m...@comcast.net] *Sent:* Friday, June 27, 2014 4:34 PM *To:* Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Mark Abramowitz via EV; Robert Bruninga *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (EV emissions) Can you tell us how the survey was worded? The one resulting in a desire for renewable fuels? On June 26, 2014 11:25:14 AM CST, Mark Abramowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Are you saying that the main problem with battery electrics is also that most of the power it uses is not renewable? Careful: Studies have shown that about HALF of EV buyers also have SOLAR or sign up for 100% solar/wind from their utilities. It is -not- a coincidence that those who want to be part of the future of clean energy do both. SO -never- use the published utility mix to derive carbon impact of EV's without dividing it at least in HALF even today to account for the demographics of EV buyers 50% of which use 100% emissions free energy. Very interesting and promising statistic. Do you have a cite? This is the low-hanging fruit. Great to see what people will do given a choice. Good sign for future of renewables. As an aside, an OEM rep told me point blank our customers want renewable fuels. What % of electricity comes from solar right now? Though the grid maybe 40% coal in some places, you must apply these corrections for EV electricity: 1) 50% of EV buyers use only 100% renewable energy for charging 2) The EV is about 3 times more efficient in total energy per mile than gasoline As a result 40% times 50% times 33% gives only about 7% of EV energy comes from coal (and it only gets better every day). Not the 100% stack emissions that the climate change deniers want you to believe. I don't think that's right either. Too simplistic. GREET model data is better. Right now, there is NO silver bullet. YES there is! and it is EV's and solar/wind. When you say right now you are pessimistically using today's pitiful 2% contribution of solar on the grid, but that includes 98% of decades old LEGACY systems. No, I'm not using that assumption. I am talking about vehicles, not the source of the energy. I am assuming that one size does not fit all. If you don't provide a ZEV that works for them, they will use an ICE. Even for existing ZEV users. A recent post had a died-in-the-wool BEV user talking about how they reluctantly had to use their ICE to take someone to the airport. Point is, you need every emission reduction you can get, and every possible way to change out the fleet to ZEV. BEVs are just one part of a mix that will change over time. FCEVs are an important part, too, and in fact expected to exceed BEVs in the mix. The market and advances in technology will determine how that eventually looks. When I see right now I don't see the 2%, I see the 400% annual growth *rate* of renewables and EV's and the 20% decline of coal, and gasoline imports! I see the 93% instant *average* reduction in carbon emissions for each new EV on the road. Or, for half of us that subscribe to 100% renewable energy, a 100% reduction. Bob, WB4aPR -- UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/e21651da/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Twin 8 Coupler
Not sure, made my own. Lots of time to get it true. Sincerely, Mark Grasser - ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Twin 8 Coupler
If the two motors are mounted on the same platform, then used a rigid coupler that will provide a connection that perfectly aligned shafts. Use a taper lock shaft coupler. Use a motor clamp shell with a platform base or build your own motor mounting. Position two motors on a thick aluminum mounting plate not less than 3/4 inch thick and not less than grade 80 hardness or use 1/2 inch chrome moly steel plate. Do not bolt the motors in place yet. Couple the motors together and position the motors on the base plate. Use a feeler gage to see is the motor platforms are touching the base plate. Check any gaps with a feeler gage and adjust the motor plate by loosening and re-tightening the mounting bolts. All my shaft connections are by the Dodge Power Transmission Company or call Dodge PT components. Many machine shops handle Dodge PT or Browning components. See http://www.dodge-pt.comhttp://www.dodge-pt.com/ Roland - Original Message - From: Bill Dennis via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 2:08 PM Subject: [EVDL] Twin 8 Coupler Is there a company that makes a coupler for mechanically connecting two ADC 8-inch motors end-to-end? Thanks, Bill ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/6b99bc85/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax)
Heavy highway trucks last over a million miles and the recent advances made in producing diesel fuel from algae, NOT Foodstock like corn, are very encouraging for the over-the-road trucks and freight trains... *Dennis Lee Miles * On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yep, biofuels are a better short term solution. The technology to use and distribute them exists. The production is improving and, I believe, will be done much more efficiently than current (and using food crops is a disaster). Hydrogen can have its niches but I just don't see it being practical to carry around small bombs everywhere nor does it make sense to try to overrule physics. In the mean time, on with the development of better batteries or capacitors! Or ideas not yet thought of. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Martin WINLOW via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 27-Jun-14 1:51:59 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts (relax) But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. I disagree. The only reason we could not power all our transportation needs from electricity is when you are operating somewhere that has none and it is not practical to provide it - ie in the middle of no-where and on a short timescale (ie no time to install PV or whatever). For that, bio-fuels would work perfectly well and you could use ordinary ICE vehicles with it so no need to spend (yet more) countless billions developing FCVs and their equally insanely expensive infrastructure. I'm sure you are saying What about those long distance trucks?. Well, aside from the obvious fact that most of this sort of transport should be on trains (preferably electric ones) there is no technical reason why trucks couldn't be EVs too and definitely not so if major highways were equipped with inductive power transfer technology. This is simple to install and compared to what they are talking about spending on an H2 refuelling infrastructure, cheap as chips (fries)! MW On 26 Jun 2014, at 15:32, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Folks, EV's and Hydorgen fuel cell cars are NOT in competition. (except in Toyota's fantasy dreams).. There is no need to get worked up. EV's are far, far better for local travel and daily commuting (80% of our miles). But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. As everyone points out, Hydrogen makes no sense compared to an EV in *all* aspects for what EV's do best. But we need to continue to explore it for when HYDROGEN might become a byproduct of daily peak grid excess renewable energy capture (no matter how inefficient). EVs and FCV's are completely different applications. And only the media and others who think anything with 4 wheels and a GO pedal should do everything-for-everyone sees them as both very limited and the same... Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via EV Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Mark, Please stop wittering on and actually address some of the points the anti H2 FCV commentators have made here. Principally, please explain how you believe H2 FCVs will work in terms of efficiency Vs (real ie plug-in) EVs? MW ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/a04764df/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Twin 8 Coupler
When I did mine I didn't have my lathe. Used my mill and rotary table and did lots of passes, round and round. Is really smooth. Now I have a nice lathe, could easily do an 8 inch chunk of aluminum. As far as the coupler, taper locks are nice but instead I did a simple coupler, .0015 undersize. Made everything just right ready to assemble. Heated the coupler in the grill as hot as I could get it, guessing about 500 degrees. Grabbed it with a pair of channel locks, slipped it all together and bolted it up. Worked well. Not sure what I would have done if it cooled too soon and weren't all the way on. Not sure what I will do to get it apart if needed. Might be what the saws all is for. Hope not to need to find out. Sincerely, Mark Grasser - DC POWER SOLUTIONS, LLC. WWW.MARKGRASSER.COM 406 Harold Dow Hwy Suite #10 Eliot M.E. 03903 Phone: 207-438-0401 Designed in the USA Assembled in the USA Marketed in the USA This e-mail, and any files attached to it, is intended solely for the person or entity to which it is addressed Any review, dissemination, copying, printing, or other use of this e-mail by persons or entities other than the addressee is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the material from all affected computers. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be timely secure, error or virus-free. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roland via EV Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 6:18 PM To: Bill Dennis; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Twin 8 Coupler If the two motors are mounted on the same platform, then used a rigid coupler that will provide a connection that perfectly aligned shafts. Use a taper lock shaft coupler. Use a motor clamp shell with a platform base or build your own motor mounting. Position two motors on a thick aluminum mounting plate not less than 3/4 inch thick and not less than grade 80 hardness or use 1/2 inch chrome moly steel plate. Do not bolt the motors in place yet. Couple the motors together and position the motors on the base plate. Use a feeler gage to see is the motor platforms are touching the base plate. Check any gaps with a feeler gage and adjust the motor plate by loosening and re-tightening the mounting bolts. All my shaft connections are by the Dodge Power Transmission Company or call Dodge PT components. Many machine shops handle Dodge PT or Browning components. See http://www.dodge-pt.comhttp://www.dodge-pt.com/ Roland - Original Message - From: Bill Dennis via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 2:08 PM Subject: [EVDL] Twin 8 Coupler Is there a company that makes a coupler for mechanically connecting two ADC 8-inch motors end-to-end? Thanks, Bill ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html #usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinf o.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140627/6b99bc85 /attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
