Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[Michael Ross via EV]

The issue of wire size is ALWAYS dependent on what sort of current MAY
occur even in a fault condition. The wire must be increased in cross
section if there are heat retaining conditions such as conduit, insulation,
limited possibility of convective cooling.

So you don't size the wire based on an assumption of a balanced load, you
figure out what faults may occur and what breakers control the circuitry.
If you are uncertain you up the wire size, you do not cost reduce the
system and down size wiring on a guess. ..

I am not going to comment about a system I cannot see, anymore than a
competent doctor would diagnose a patient without seeing them.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 3:25 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 17 Feb 2019 at 18:02, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > Is this legal under the NEC?
>
> On a 20 amp breaker, definitely.  On a 30 amp breaker, probably not.
>
> I don't have a copy of the NEC handy, and I'm not a code expert, but IIRC
> the code has (or had) a provision for using a size smaller neutral to feed
> a
> 120/240v balanced load (nearly equal current on both legs of the line).
> But
> since you can't warrant that both 120v receptacles will be in use at the
> same time, that exception (if it still exists) probably wouldn't apply to
> your case.
>
> Pro electricians who follow the code daily may have more or better
> information for you.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

Right now, a negligible number of people drive EVs.
The public at large still considers them golf carts, or rich yuppie

toys.

But each of us can make a huge difference.

Back in 2011, I bought some professional EV charging Outlet signs and hung
them on the two light poles in the church parking lot that had 120v
outlets.  They were never if ever used over the next 6 years, but slowly
but surely people in the church started buying EV's because they could see
my car occasionally plulgged in and began to see the ubiquity of EV
charging wherever there is an outlet.


That's a great inspiration, Bob. Thanks for sharing! I'll have to ask at 
our church. :-)


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 17 Feb 2019 at 18:02, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> Is this legal under the NEC?

On a 20 amp breaker, definitely.  On a 30 amp breaker, probably not. 

I don't have a copy of the NEC handy, and I'm not a code expert, but IIRC 
the code has (or had) a provision for using a size smaller neutral to feed a 
120/240v balanced load (nearly equal current on both legs of the line).  But 
since you can't warrant that both 120v receptacles will be in use at the 
same time, that exception (if it still exists) probably wouldn't apply to 
your case.

Pro electricians who follow the code daily may have more or better 
information for you.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

I'm not a code expert, but as I understand it, in the addition to what Jay 
Summet said, the NEC generally prohibits connecting either 15 or 20 amp 
receptacles to a 30 amp branch circuit.  Receptacles must be 30 amp.  The 
fact that you're allowed to connect 15 amp 120v recepts to a 20 amp branch 
circuit is kind of an exception already.  

What you're doing sounds like tap conductors.  There's a whole list of rules 
for tapping a 240v feed for lower ampacity 120v circuits.  See here:

https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-
HTML/HTML/FeederSecondaryTapRules~20020326.htm

https://v.gd/Nosfgd

A much easier way to do this (fewer, less complex rules), and more 
convenient for the user if a breaker trips,  is to install a small rainproof 
subpanel at the charging location.  You would then use that to supply 
separate breaker-protected 240v and 120v circuits for charging.  

Ground and neutral must be separated at all subpanels (requires a 4-wire 
feed).  The receptacles must have heavy duty in-use covers.

I believe there is (or used to be) a code exception that allows a size 
smaller neutral (12 vs 10, 4 vs 2, etc) feeding a subpanel if a load 
calculation shows that the 120v loads will be approximately balanced.  I 
don't think that you could show that in this instance, so it probably 
doesn't apply, if it even still exists.

But -- NOTE WELL -- all this is moot unless you're a licensed electrician.  
Maybe you are, I don't know, but the fact that you didn't know what the NEC 
said about this makes me think that you might not be.  

It's illegal for an unlicensed person, no matter how knowledgable, to 
perform electrical work in or on a public building such as a church.  You 
can't even work on a rental dwelling that you either own or rent.  You're 
only allowed to work on the wiring in your own owner-occupied house, and 
then only with a permit.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Correct, a 240v circuit can overload one leg and the ganged breakers will
trip. That is why it has a pair of ganged breakers.
Cor.

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019, 7:41 PM Robert Bruninga via EV  Thanks for your insight.  Yes, the breaker will be 20 amps so if anyone
> tries to do anything other than a single L2 or two L1's they will loose
> both as the breaker will trip.  I do assume that a 20A 2 pole breaker
> actually will trip based on an overload on either of the two sides
> independently of what is on the other.
>
> Thanks!
> Bob
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 7:32 PM Jay Summet via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > I install two 120v outlets on each post along with a single 240v
> outlet.
> > > And then a small note says, "Either one L2 or two L1's but not both".
> > > Each post has properly rated #10 conductors for the 16 amps on Line1
> and
> > > Line2 and Ground and a #12 for Neutral since the Neutral carries either
> > > zero or only the 12 amps of a single L1.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is this legal under the NEC?
> >
> > It depends entirely upon your breaker size. As long as you don't have a
> > breaker larger than 20 amps on either phase you should be good to go.
> >
> > I'm worried about you sizing the neutral smaller than the hots, as
> > somebody may see the 10 AWG hot line and put a 30 amp breaker on it, not
> > realizing the neutral wire still needs to be limited to 20 amps.
> >
> > I'm also worried about the ability for somebody to overload one of your
> > hots by plugging into both the L2 and an L1 at the same time.
> >
> > A polite sign isn't the same as an interlock. You must assume some bozo
> > will plug into the L2 and both L1's at the same time.
> >
> > (I assume the two 120v L1 outlets are on opposite phases of a split
> > phase 240 setup for the 240v outlet.)
> >
> > For example, if somebody sets up a space heater that draws 15 amps on
> > one of the L1 outlets, and then somebody else starts to charge their car
> > at 16 amps on the 240 outlet, the total number of amps on one of your
> > hots would be 31 amps, which is more than should be going over a 10 AWG
> > wire.  If you had a 20 amp breaker no problem.  If you are using a 30
> > amp breaker, no problem for the 240 volt circuit, but somebody could
> > successfully draw 25 amps over your 10 AWG neutral if they (for example)
> > had a 30 amp 120v RV circuit going through a 15 amp plug adapter.
> >
> > So either the breaker must trip because it's a 20 amp, or all the wires
> > including the neutral must be sized to accommodate the full possible
> > load, 10AWG for a 30 amp breaker.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Thanks for your insight.  Yes, the breaker will be 20 amps so if anyone
tries to do anything other than a single L2 or two L1's they will loose
both as the breaker will trip.  I do assume that a 20A 2 pole breaker
actually will trip based on an overload on either of the two sides
independently of what is on the other.

Thanks!
Bob


On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 7:32 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

>
> > I install two 120v outlets on each post along with a single 240v outlet.
> > And then a small note says, "Either one L2 or two L1's but not both".
> > Each post has properly rated #10 conductors for the 16 amps on Line1 and
> > Line2 and Ground and a #12 for Neutral since the Neutral carries either
> > zero or only the 12 amps of a single L1.
> >
> >
> > Is this legal under the NEC?
>
> It depends entirely upon your breaker size. As long as you don't have a
> breaker larger than 20 amps on either phase you should be good to go.
>
> I'm worried about you sizing the neutral smaller than the hots, as
> somebody may see the 10 AWG hot line and put a 30 amp breaker on it, not
> realizing the neutral wire still needs to be limited to 20 amps.
>
> I'm also worried about the ability for somebody to overload one of your
> hots by plugging into both the L2 and an L1 at the same time.
>
> A polite sign isn't the same as an interlock. You must assume some bozo
> will plug into the L2 and both L1's at the same time.
>
> (I assume the two 120v L1 outlets are on opposite phases of a split
> phase 240 setup for the 240v outlet.)
>
> For example, if somebody sets up a space heater that draws 15 amps on
> one of the L1 outlets, and then somebody else starts to charge their car
> at 16 amps on the 240 outlet, the total number of amps on one of your
> hots would be 31 amps, which is more than should be going over a 10 AWG
> wire.  If you had a 20 amp breaker no problem.  If you are using a 30
> amp breaker, no problem for the 240 volt circuit, but somebody could
> successfully draw 25 amps over your 10 AWG neutral if they (for example)
> had a 30 amp 120v RV circuit going through a 15 amp plug adapter.
>
> So either the breaker must trip because it's a 20 amp, or all the wires
> including the neutral must be sized to accommodate the full possible
> load, 10AWG for a 30 amp breaker.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[Jay Summet via EV]

I install two 120v outlets on each post along with a single 240v outlet.
And then a small note says, "Either one L2 or two L1's but not both".
Each post has properly rated #10 conductors for the 16 amps on Line1 and
Line2 and Ground and a #12 for Neutral since the Neutral carries either
zero or only the 12 amps of a single L1.


Is this legal under the NEC?


It depends entirely upon your breaker size. As long as you don't have a 
breaker larger than 20 amps on either phase you should be good to go.


I'm worried about you sizing the neutral smaller than the hots, as 
somebody may see the 10 AWG hot line and put a 30 amp breaker on it, not 
realizing the neutral wire still needs to be limited to 20 amps.


I'm also worried about the ability for somebody to overload one of your 
hots by plugging into both the L2 and an L1 at the same time.


A polite sign isn't the same as an interlock. You must assume some bozo 
will plug into the L2 and both L1's at the same time.


(I assume the two 120v L1 outlets are on opposite phases of a split 
phase 240 setup for the 240v outlet.)


For example, if somebody sets up a space heater that draws 15 amps on 
one of the L1 outlets, and then somebody else starts to charge their car 
at 16 amps on the 240 outlet, the total number of amps on one of your 
hots would be 31 amps, which is more than should be going over a 10 AWG 
wire.  If you had a 20 amp breaker no problem.  If you are using a 30 
amp breaker, no problem for the 240 volt circuit, but somebody could 
successfully draw 25 amps over your 10 AWG neutral if they (for example) 
had a 30 amp 120v RV circuit going through a 15 amp plug adapter.


So either the breaker must trip because it's a 20 amp, or all the wires 
including the neutral must be sized to accommodate the full possible 
load, 10AWG for a 30 amp breaker.


Jay



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[EVDL] EV familiarity

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> Right now, a negligible number of people drive EVs.
> The public at large still considers them golf carts, or rich yuppie
toys.

But each of us can make a huge difference.

Back in 2011, I bought some professional EV charging Outlet signs and hung
them on the two light poles in the church parking lot that had 120v
outlets.  They were never if ever used over the next 6 years, but slowly
but surely people in the church started buying EV's because they could see
my car occasionally plulgged in and began to see the ubiquity of EV
charging wherever there is an outlet.

Now we have 20% of the active pople in the church driving EV's and most
can't wait for their gas car to die, so they too can get an EV.  And
FINALLY, in 2018, we got a lady with a Prius Plugin that had to plug in on
EVERY trip in order to get home on Electric.  So finally, over Christmas
holidays, I ran a cable to another pole where I installed our first L2.
Then a month later, I added another L2.  And now everyone wants to use
them.

So today I was going to add another L2 cord, but then realized the point
is already made.  We have 5five very visible EV charging signs in the
parking lot, and everyone knows we are in full support of EVs.  But we
decided not to install any more L2 cords, because they encourage too much
casual convenience charging that blocks those that actually need it.  So
we are going to leave the rest as just L1 and L2 socket outlets.  This
way, not everyone just immedialtey goes and uses the cord (whether they
really need it or not).

Now the lady that MUST have a charge on every visit can bring her own L2
cord and plug it into one of the other 240v outlets and quite reasonably
expect not to be blocked by someone else who does not need the charge is
going to go to the trouble of getting out their cord and using it.

So now we have capacity for five L2s (2 cords left in place) and a total
of ten L1 outlets.

It has really snowballed.  See photos:
http://aprs.org/EV-charging-signs.html

The new L2's are not shown yet, but the original two L1 outlet signs are
at the top.

I install two 120v outlets on each post along with a single 240v outlet.
And then a small note says, "Either one L2 or two L1's but not both".
Each post has properly rated #10 conductors for the 16 amps on Line1 and
Line2 and Ground and a #12 for Neutral since the Neutral carries either
zero or only the 12 amps of a single L1.


Is this legal under the NEC?

Bob
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