Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Yes. You're right about Edison cells. And the problem is the losses and
requirement to flush the cells every 1000 cycles. The losses and flushing
makes it 2x more expensive to own and operate compared to say Winston
cells. We've done the math extensively and used the real life numbers from
vast amount of installations.
-Jukka

tiistai 18. lokakuuta 2016 EVDL Administrator via EV 
kirjoitti:

> On 17 Oct 2016 at 16:47, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
> > Edison (nickle/iron) cells have pretty much infinite cycle life:
>
> So I've read from many sources.  There is lots of evidence to support this.
>
> As I understand it, the "metal" in nickel metal hydride cells is -- guess
> what -- iron.  So if NiFe can have such an extended cycle life, why can't
> NiMH?
>
> In fact, NiMH can have outstanding cycle life.  Consider those remarkable
> Toyota RAV4-EVs from 15+ years ago, with Panasonic NiMH batteries lasting
> well over 100,000 miles.
>
> Don't you wonder if maybe NiMH could have cycle life approaching that of
> NiFe, if they were designed for it?
>
> And haven't the patents encumbering the manufacture of large, BEV-sized
> NiMH
> modules expired now?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 17 Oct 2016 at 16:47, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> Edison (nickle/iron) cells have pretty much infinite cycle life:

So I've read from many sources.  There is lots of evidence to support this.

As I understand it, the "metal" in nickel metal hydride cells is -- guess 
what -- iron.  So if NiFe can have such an extended cycle life, why can't 
NiMH?

In fact, NiMH can have outstanding cycle life.  Consider those remarkable 
Toyota RAV4-EVs from 15+ years ago, with Panasonic NiMH batteries lasting 
well over 100,000 miles.  

Don't you wonder if maybe NiMH could have cycle life approaching that of 
NiFe, if they were designed for it?  

And haven't the patents encumbering the manufacture of large, BEV-sized NiMH 
modules expired now?  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Bill Dube via EV]

On 10/17/2016 1:22 PM, Jukka Järvinen via EV wrote:


So no one would mind having infinite battery. It's something we should
invent. :)

-Jukka


Edison (nickle/iron) cells have pretty much infinite cycle life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

However, "eternal" cycle life comes with other baggage:
 Pathetic charge/discharge efficiency = ~70%
 Mediocre specific energy = ~20Whr/kg
 Tepid specific power = ~ 100 W/kg
 Painful self-discharge = ~25% per month (This, coupled with the poor 
specific power, is why they aren't used as starting batteries.)


  Edison cells have the distinct advantage of containing no toxic 
metals, which is a very positive aspect.


Bill D.
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Battery manufacturers are vertically integrating their business from raw
material production to service (€/MW/MWh fee). We design cells for easy
recycling and optimize the cells to provide maximum MW/MWh in and out. This
is 10.000bn€ business opportunity as service. Today. Less if just selling
cells. It's not a tech business anymore. It's game for banksters. :D

So no one would mind having infinite battery. It's something we should
invent. :)

-Jukka

maanantai 17. lokakuuta 2016 Rick Beebe via EV 
kirjoitti:

> On 10/17/2016 8:22 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> Maybe you've noticed that as LED retrofit light bulbs have fallen in
>> price,
>> their rated lifetimes have gotten shorter.  The early ones were rated for
>> 50,000 average hours; many now are rated for 10,000-20,000 hours.  The
>> same
>> thing happened with compact fluorescents, which quickly declined from
>> 10,000
>> hours to 6,000.
>>
>
> FWIW I haven't noticed that the LED bulbs I've purchased have lasted
> longer than the old incandescents so I pretty much don't believe anyone's
> rated lifetimes.
>
> --Rick
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Rick Beebe via EV]

On 10/17/2016 8:22 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
Maybe you've noticed that as LED retrofit light bulbs have fallen in 
price,

their rated lifetimes have gotten shorter.  The early ones were rated for
50,000 average hours; many now are rated for 10,000-20,000 hours.  The same
thing happened with compact fluorescents, which quickly declined from 10,000
hours to 6,000.


FWIW I haven't noticed that the LED bulbs I've purchased have lasted 
longer than the old incandescents so I pretty much don't believe 
anyone's rated lifetimes.


--Rick
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 16 Oct 2016 at 15:57, Michael Ross via EV wrote:

> It is hard to knock a battery with nearly infinite cycles.

Unless you're a battery manufacturer ... 

A battery that never needs to be replaced would be a real game changer for 
the business.  I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think any manufacturer would 
touch it for fear of losing their replacement business.

Maybe you've noticed that as LED retrofit light bulbs have fallen in price, 
their rated lifetimes have gotten shorter.  The early ones were rated for 
50,000 average hours; many now are rated for 10,000-20,000 hours.  The same 
thing happened with compact fluorescents, which quickly declined from 10,000 
hours to 6,000.

This parallels what happened with incandescent light bulbs.  When mass 
production tungsten filament bulbs first came on the market, they burned for 
~2500 hours.  Then the manufacturers formed a cartel and agreed to limit 
their bulbs' lives to 1000 hours.

I suppose it sounds cynical, but I expect that if this battery ever makes it 
to the market, it will have a deliberately limited lifetime.  I can see them 
making several different versions, identical except for price and the 
configuration of the built-in self-destruct mechanism.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is hard to knock a battery with nearly infinite cycles. Even the
theoretical possibility means incredible potential.  Just because the EV
wears out, does not mean the battery is not worth having - the next 50
generations would not have to reproduce or recycle that battery.

If you get to amortize a fixed cost for a very long time, it becomes nearly
cost free in a very real sense.  But it you insist on viewing it only in a
personal time frame you miss out on something awesome on a racial time scale

That said, I doubt all lab cell constructions until they become
manufacturable. Until that point they are useless trivia.  I hope someone
backrolls this until it is clearly out of any realm of possibility.

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 10:52 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 15 Oct 2016 at 6:14, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>
> > If you assume that the amount of gold used is the same as amount of
> silver
> > used (it's actually much less), then using gold is actually *cheaper*
> than
> > using silver if the battery lasts 400 times longer
>
> True, but maybe immaterial for EV use.  A 200,000 cycle battery would power
> a 200 mile per charge EV for 40 million miles.  At 20,000 miles per year,
> that's 2000 years of driving.  You could pass your EV (or at least its
> battery) down through 60 or so generations.  Talk about gold as a family
> heirloom!
>
> If I read it right, the original article seems to be saying that the gold
> isn't active material in the battery (which figures), but rather a carrier
> of the active material.  Thus it's not really comparable to a silver-zinc
> battery.
>
> It also says that the amount of gold used is "minuscule," but "that would
> still make these batteries be expensive to manufacture."  It also
> postulates
> that some cheaper metal might work too.
>
> IF this battery design pans out, and I'm sure it has a LONG way to go
> before
> it will ever be scaled up for production, it seems like the kind of battery
> that NASA would use.  But it would in theory have such a long cycle life
> (again IF it pans out) that it would far outlast any device it powered, so
> I
> just don't know what its application would be.  IBesides, I suspect that
> battery manufacturers would prefer to make batteries that have to be
> replaced now and again.  :-(
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

 You're right, but this isn't the manufacturing phase, pre-commercialization or 
even the demonstration phase we're looking at. This is early research. Whether 
it's looking at other metals instead of gold, determining whether the amounts 
needed can be reduced, or any one of a number of other things, this is really 
only a first step to look at the feasibility of a concept.



Sent from AltaMail


 From: EVDL Administrator via EV  To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium 
batteries Date: 10/16/16, 7:52 AM

 
On 15 Oct 2016 at 6:14, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: 
 
> If you assume that the amount of gold used is the same as amount of silver 
> used (it's actually much less), then using gold is actually *cheaper* than 
> using silver if the battery lasts 400 times longer 
 
True, but maybe immaterial for EV use.  A 200,000 cycle battery would power  
a 200 mile per charge EV for 40 million miles.  At 20,000 miles per year,  
that's 2000 years of driving.  You could pass your EV (or at least its  
battery) down through 60 or so generations.  Talk about gold as a family  
heirloom! 
 
If I read it right, the original article seems to be saying that the gold  
isn't active material in the battery (which figures), but rather a carrier  
of the active material.  Thus it's not really comparable to a silver-zinc  
battery.  
 
It also says that the amount of gold used is "minuscule," but "that would  
still make these batteries be expensive to manufacture."  It also postulates  
that some cheaper metal might work too. 
 
IF this battery design pans out, and I'm sure it has a LONG way to go before  
it will ever be scaled up for production, it seems like the kind of battery  
that NASA would use.  But it would in theory have such a long cycle life  
(again IF it pans out) that it would far outlast any device it powered, so I  
just don't know what its application would be.  IBesides, I suspect that  
battery manufacturers would prefer to make batteries that have to be  
replaced now and again.  :-( 
 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA 
EVDL Administrator 
 
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[ROBERT via EV]

Just remember, when something is too good to be true it usually is not.  All 
the failure modes for new technologies are usually unknown until a production 
type device is produced and tested.


From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2016 7:52 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

On 15 Oct 2016 at 6:14, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> If you assume that the amount of gold used is the same as amount of silver
> used (it's actually much less), then using gold is actually *cheaper* than
> using silver if the battery lasts 400 times longer

True, but maybe immaterial for EV use.  A 200,000 cycle battery would power
a 200 mile per charge EV for 40 million miles.  At 20,000 miles per year,
that's 2000 years of driving.  You could pass your EV (or at least its
battery) down through 60 or so generations.  Talk about gold as a family
heirloom!

If I read it right, the original article seems to be saying that the gold
isn't active material in the battery (which figures), but rather a carrier
of the active material.  Thus it's not really comparable to a silver-zinc
battery.

It also says that the amount of gold used is "minuscule," but "that would
still make these batteries be expensive to manufacture."  It also postulates
that some cheaper metal might work too.

IF this battery design pans out, and I'm sure it has a LONG way to go before
it will ever be scaled up for production, it seems like the kind of battery
that NASA would use.  But it would in theory have such a long cycle life
(again IF it pans out) that it would far outlast any device it powered, so I
just don't know what its application would be.  IBesides, I suspect that
battery manufacturers would prefer to make batteries that have to be
replaced now and again.  :-(

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Oct 2016 at 6:14, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

> If you assume that the amount of gold used is the same as amount of silver
> used (it's actually much less), then using gold is actually *cheaper* than
> using silver if the battery lasts 400 times longer

True, but maybe immaterial for EV use.  A 200,000 cycle battery would power 
a 200 mile per charge EV for 40 million miles.  At 20,000 miles per year, 
that's 2000 years of driving.  You could pass your EV (or at least its 
battery) down through 60 or so generations.  Talk about gold as a family 
heirloom!

If I read it right, the original article seems to be saying that the gold 
isn't active material in the battery (which figures), but rather a carrier 
of the active material.  Thus it's not really comparable to a silver-zinc 
battery. 

It also says that the amount of gold used is "minuscule," but "that would 
still make these batteries be expensive to manufacture."  It also postulates 
that some cheaper metal might work too.

IF this battery design pans out, and I'm sure it has a LONG way to go before 
it will ever be scaled up for production, it seems like the kind of battery 
that NASA would use.  But it would in theory have such a long cycle life 
(again IF it pans out) that it would far outlast any device it powered, so I 
just don't know what its application would be.  IBesides, I suspect that 
battery manufacturers would prefer to make batteries that have to be 
replaced now and again.  :-(

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

 
I think your comparison is a little misleading in this context.
If you assume that the amount of gold used is the same as amount of silver used 
(it's actually much less), then using gold is actually *cheaper* than using 
silver if the battery lasts 400 times longer.
Of course, this is initial research only, so the relative costs don't really 
mean anything at this point.

Sent from AltaMail


 From: EVDL Administrator via EV  To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium 
batteries Date: 10/14/16, 8:36 PM

 
On 14 Oct 2016 at 17:33, Jorg Brown via EV wrote: 
 
> researchers at UC Irvine have used gold nanowires [in a battery] ... 
 
And I thought silver-zinc batteries were too expensive to be practical.   
 
Silver : $561.67 per kg 
 
Gold : $40,284.86 per kg 
 
Yikes. 
 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA 
EVDL Administrator 
 
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 14 Oct 2016 at 17:33, Jorg Brown via EV wrote:

> researchers at UC Irvine have used gold nanowires [in a battery] ...

And I thought silver-zinc batteries were too expensive to be practical.  

Silver : $561.67 per kg

Gold : $40,284.86 per kg

Yikes.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Michael Ross via EV]

Roger,

You are correct it is a form of accelerated life testing, but very
different from traditional testing for Li ion batteries. Almost
unrecognisable in comparison.  I spoke with Dahn about setting up a
commercial lab to do this as verification testing. Because they are a
research group, and working for particular customers (Medco for example),
they are interested in tracking more closely the changes.  So to gain
detail they did cycle at a very reduced rate.  It is not necessary to cycle
however.  It just depends on how granular a look at capacity degradation
you want to get.  The testing I wanted to do would have reduced the cycle
rate and overall test time to a greater degree. For QA purposes, or
comparison between prospective suppliers, not research and development, for
example, you could possibly do one long cycle, or very few cycles.

The capacity loss does track linearly with cycles (or more properly with
the time spent at higher SOC%), but it is not linear with respect to
temperature, and C rate (related to temperature).  Bottom line: It is not
the number of test cycles that is important.

I think you could predict performance given a particular operating routine
(or non-routine) without being concerned with the number of test cycles,
but instead looking at how the combination of C, temperature, time of dwell
at high SOC%, and whatever other significant inputs that may be
discovered.  Maybe they are working this out, I have not been keeping up
with the research for a couple years now.

Their original intent was to improve the state of testing and to get
funding. That is probably still where they stand regarding motivation.

I don't know about the AABC meeting.  Do you know if there is a video or
transcript available?

For anyone in the battery industry, manufacturing or use, Dr. Dahn seems to
be very responsive.  It is his stated goal to improve the industry, and he
seemed willing to connect directly.

Best regards,

MR

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Roger Stockton via EV 
wrote:

> Michael Ross wrote:
>
> > Even though marketing likes accelerated life testing, and it
> > gives a higher comfort level to everyone, accelerated life
> > testing can just take resources away from ​more serious
> > investigation​;
>
>
> > This is where the work at Dalhousie got its motivation.
>
> [...]
>
> > Their approach was to jump up the accuracy of testing by orders of
> > magnitude.  In a nutshell they built top of the line​​ test​
> > equipment using very high quality current sources, they performed testing
> > in thermal chambers maintaining extremely steady, elevated temperatures,
> > and so on, all to reduce environmental and measurement noise and
> > uncertainty.  Through these means they were able to detect very small
> > levels of cell deterioration and malfunction, ​while NOT cycling the
> > cells; instead simply maintaining the damaging conditions and
> > stopping occasionally to examine cell function (capacity, resistance,
> > etc.), the test periods were drastically reduced from accelerated life
> > testing protocols.
>
> First of all, what you describe *is* accelerated life testing, whether the
> cells are being cycled or not.
>
> Secondly, you are mistaken about the not cycling part; the presentation
> that Dr. Dahn gave at AABC a few years ago describing the high precision
> test equipment they had designed and how it was being used specifically
> stated that the purpose of the high precision equipment was to allow the
> measurement of the (hopefully ;^) very small amounts of capacity loss that
> results each time the cell is *cycled*.  Since the capacity loss is
> (supposedly) linear with the number of cycles, the higher precision test
> equipment allowed them to determine the rate of capacity loss while
> performing much fewer cycles than had traditionally been required, and it
> was then possible to extrapolate from the measured capacity loss per cycle
> to predict the cell cycle life to whatever residual capacity level one
> wanted.
>
> He may certainly have moved to the test regime you describe in more recent
> times, however this was not the original intent behind the development of
> the high precision test equipment.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
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> group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jorg Brown via EV]

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 7:09 AM, Jukka Järvinen via EV 
wrote:

> What it comes to better electrolytes.. that is HARD! The testing cycle to
> confirm lifetime and usability is way too long. Accelerated aging tests are
> not the same at all to real life use.


And on that note, see https://goo.gl/xoQKha

Instead of lithium, researchers at UC Irvine have used gold nanowires to
> store electricity, and have found that their system is able to far outlast
> traditional lithium battery construction. The Irvine team's system cycled
> through 200,000 recharges without significant corrosion or decline.


> However, they don't exactly know why. The original idea of the experiment
> was to make a solid-state battery: one that uses an electrolyte gel, rather
> than liquid, to help hold charge. Liquid batteries, like the common lithium
> variety, are extremely combustible and sensitive to temperature. The Irvine
> team was experimenting by substituting a much thicker gel.


> "We started to cycle the devices, and then realized that they weren't
> going to die," said Reginald Penner, a lead author of the paper. "We don't
> understand the mechanism of that yet."
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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Michael Ross via EV]

Agreed, you have to charge and discharge once to measure with precision the
coulombic efficiency, but if you are not doing research you don't
necessarily need to do it more than once.

If you understand how a population of batteries behave regarding coulombic
efficiency, you can simply apply the damaging high state of charge and
temperature and after you have accumulated the same overall time as a many
cycle regime, you could estimate whether a test specimen is within
specification.

Or you can take samples from different sources and make comparisons without
resorting to many cycles.

One of Dahn's salient points is that below some threshold of SOC% and
temperature, you are accomplishing nothing to stress the battery. The only
reason to cycle low is to check the capacity.  Then he goes on to show how
much "accelerated life testing" never actually exposes the cells to
significant. damaging conditions. 1 fast cycles could have very minimal
time or none ate levels of SOC% that cause harm.  The test sounds good on a
website, or spec sheet, but reveals nothing useful.

If you try to get information on salient test conditions from a
manufacturer or worse, a distributor, you may never actually talk to anyone
who is knowledgeable, or see graphs with labeled axes, and so on.
Comparisons are nearly impossible because test conditions are not
standardized.

A big user like Tesla, for instance, gets involved in HPCE (high precision
coulombic efficiency) testing because it is currently the only way to make
rational decisions in a timely manner.

But many cycles of charging should be minimized to levels depending on the
decisions to be made. Development and quality control require different
protocols.

MR

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Roger Stockton via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> Measuring the coulombic efficiency requires cycling the cell(s), as what
> one is interested in is how much of the energy delivered to the cell on
> each charge cycle is *not* recovered on the subsequent discharge.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
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>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Michael Ross wrote:

> You are correct it is a form of accelerated life testing, but very
> different from traditional testing for Li ion batteries. Almost
> unrecognisable in comparison.

Perhaps this is true of some more recent test regimen he has adopted; what he 
described in the presentation I'm referring to was the use of high precision 
measurements of the coulombic efficiency to allow prediction of the lifetime 
based on measurements made over the course of days or weeks rather than months 
or years.

Measuring the coulombic efficiency requires cycling the cell(s), as what one is 
interested in is how much of the energy delivered to the cell on each charge 
cycle is *not* recovered on the subsequent discharge.

> I don't know about the AABC meeting.  Do you know if there is a video or
> transcript available?

The presentation I am referring to was the keynote address at the Large Lithium 
Ion Battery Technology and Application (LLIBTA) Symposium as part of the 2012 
Advanced Automotive Battery Conference (AABC).  I expect that the organisers 
would be more than happy to sell you a copy of the LLIBTA 2012 proceedings:



Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Roger Stockton via EV]

Michael Ross wrote:

> Even though marketing likes accelerated life testing, and it
> gives a higher comfort level to everyone, accelerated life
> testing can just take resources away from ​more serious
> investigation​;


> This is where the work at Dalhousie got its motivation.

[...]

> Their approach was to jump up the accuracy of testing by orders of
> magnitude.  In a nutshell they built top of the line​​ test​
> equipment using very high quality current sources, they performed testing
> in thermal chambers maintaining extremely steady, elevated temperatures,
> and so on, all to reduce environmental and measurement noise and
> uncertainty.  Through these means they were able to detect very small
> levels of cell deterioration and malfunction, ​while NOT cycling the
> cells; instead simply maintaining the damaging conditions and
> stopping occasionally to examine cell function (capacity, resistance,
> etc.), the test periods were drastically reduced from accelerated life
> testing protocols.

First of all, what you describe *is* accelerated life testing, whether the 
cells are being cycled or not.

Secondly, you are mistaken about the not cycling part; the presentation that 
Dr. Dahn gave at AABC a few years ago describing the high precision test 
equipment they had designed and how it was being used specifically stated that 
the purpose of the high precision equipment was to allow the measurement of the 
(hopefully ;^) very small amounts of capacity loss that results each time the 
cell is *cycled*.  Since the capacity loss is (supposedly) linear with the 
number of cycles, the higher precision test equipment allowed them to determine 
the rate of capacity loss while performing much fewer cycles than had 
traditionally been required, and it was then possible to extrapolate from the 
measured capacity loss per cycle to predict the cell cycle life to whatever 
residual capacity level one wanted.

He may certainly have moved to the test regime you describe in more recent 
times, however this was not the original intent behind the development of the 
high precision test equipment.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Michael Ross via EV]

​
​
Even though marketing likes accelerated life testing
, and it gives a higher comfort level to everyone, accelerated life testing
can just take resources away from
​more ​
serious investigation
​;
 particularly when the life you are trying emulate is 10 to 20
​,​
or more years.  Are you going to wait five years to learn what is
happening? After years of this approach
​ to Li ion development​
many people
​
are simply confused​
,
​ who are​
designing, manufacturing,
​ ​
purchasing
​,​
and using
​cells ​
end products .  The specs given on battery life
​ for cells​
​that we buy retail ​
border on useless for comparing products and estimating service life.

This is where the work at Dalhousie got its motivation.
​(I know this from calling Dr. Dahn on the phone and having conversation.)​
They wanted to advance Li-ion and other battery technologies to advance
without waiting
​through ​
​over
long test periods.

​
​
Their approach was to jump up the accuracy of testing by orders of
magnitude.  In a nutshell they built
top of the line​
​ test
​
equipment using very high quality current sources, they performed testing
in thermal chambers maintaining extremely steady, elevated temperatures,
and so on, all to reduce environmental and measurement noise and
uncertainty.  Through these means they were able to detect very small
levels of cell deterioration and malfunction,
​while NOT
 cycling the cells; instead simply maintaining the damaging conditions and
stopping occasionally to examine cell function (capacity, resistance,
etc.), the test periods were drastically reduced from accelerated life
testing protocols.

​​​
​
Freed from the desire to say,
"​
these cells lasted this long at such and such a cycle rate,
​​
and number of cycles,
​"​
Dahn's lab simply created the conditions that cause trouble and kept the
cells there. A typical cell life test runs the tests at conditions that are
pseudo-realistic,
​but ​
at a high cycle rate, which essentially doesn't expose the cells to
damaging conditions for a lengthy time until a very long time has elapsed.
​ The damage occurs with high SOC%; cycling cells simply gives them long
rest periods at conditions we already know  are not damaging.​


​Some their first discoveries were that small tweaks to electrolyte
composition could greatly improve or reduce cell life.​


On Sep 24, 2016 7:10 AM, "George Tyler via EV"  wrote:

> Accelerated life testing is a science on it's own. A friend of mine has
> made a career out of it, runs a network of Labs for a huge medical
> electronics company. We worked for the same company twice through the
> years, he did the testing for a lot of the electronic products I designed.
> What separates the men from the boys is creating test plans that DO work
> the same as real life, if you can't do this it is a waist of time or worse.
> You create a model, test it, and old when it aligns with reality do you do
> the actual testing. Say you model is to run the product at elevated
> temperature, you run one at ambient +20 deg, another at +30. +40 etc etc,
> then measure time to failure, draw a graph. Where the graph suddenly take
> off for the sky is the point you must keep below. There is much more to it
> as well.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jukka Järvinen
> via EV
> Sent: 24 September, 2016 2:09 AM
> To: Michael Ross; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries
>
> Rarely what one can get for free is useless. People even sleep in
> cardboard boxes.
> So is the idea to push forward the responsibility to recycle? This is no
> business per se. If something it's just smarter use of existing resources.
>
> What it comes to better electrolytes.. that is HARD! The testing cycle to
> confirm lifetime and usability is way too long. Accelerated aging tests are
> not the same at all to real life use. While I have to admit I was wholly
> impressed by the Hydro Quebec battery research lab. Boy do they have toys
> there! :D (droool) Advancements in R&D are available as we can now see more
> deeper and more accurately with color-SEM and such.
>
> Does it not go without saying that one should not use cell-murder (tm)?
> BMS has to be done right.
>
> -Jukka
>
> P.S.- Dear Santa. I would like to have a $10bn to research more. Thank You!
>
> 2016-09-23 14:47 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :
>
> > Advances in testing are just beginning to drive more effective research.
> > For example tiny adjustments in electrolyte components can yield big
> > improvements. The testing is faster and provides more granular
> > investigations.
> >
> > Re LFP you mistreat them and they die a quick death, but stationary
> > apps you can treat them well.
> >
>

Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[George Tyler via EV]

Accelerated life testing is a science on it's own. A friend of mine has made a 
career out of it, runs a network of Labs for a huge medical electronics 
company. We worked for the same company twice through the years, he did the 
testing for a lot of the electronic products I designed. What separates the men 
from the boys is creating test plans that DO work the same as real life, if you 
can't do this it is a waist of time or worse. You create a model, test it, and 
old when it aligns with reality do you do the actual testing. Say you model is 
to run the product at elevated temperature, you run one at ambient +20 deg, 
another at +30. +40 etc etc, then measure time to failure, draw a graph. Where 
the graph suddenly take off for the sky is the point you must keep below. There 
is much more to it as well.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jukka Järvinen via EV
Sent: 24 September, 2016 2:09 AM
To: Michael Ross; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

Rarely what one can get for free is useless. People even sleep in cardboard 
boxes.
So is the idea to push forward the responsibility to recycle? This is no 
business per se. If something it's just smarter use of existing resources.

What it comes to better electrolytes.. that is HARD! The testing cycle to 
confirm lifetime and usability is way too long. Accelerated aging tests are not 
the same at all to real life use. While I have to admit I was wholly impressed 
by the Hydro Quebec battery research lab. Boy do they have toys there! :D 
(droool) Advancements in R&D are available as we can now see more deeper and 
more accurately with color-SEM and such.

Does it not go without saying that one should not use cell-murder (tm)? BMS has 
to be done right.

-Jukka

P.S.- Dear Santa. I would like to have a $10bn to research more. Thank You!

2016-09-23 14:47 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :

> Advances in testing are just beginning to drive more effective research.
> For example tiny adjustments in electrolyte components can yield big 
> improvements. The testing is faster and provides more granular 
> investigations.
>
> Re LFP you mistreat them and they die a quick death, but stationary 
> apps you can treat them well.
>
> EV battery packs may not be optimal compared to purpose built 
> stationary packs but they are far from useless.
>
> Mike Ross
>
> On Sep 23, 2016 4:43 AM, "Jukka Järvinen"  wrote:
>
> > Usually the internal resistance is growing much faster than the loss 
> > of capacity. So if you use the pack in very low power application 
> > you will
> be
> > able to use the pack for some time (several years). This is for LCO, 
> > LMO and NMC. Maybe NCA too (cannot say for sure yet as I do not have 
> > usage
> data
> > from those yet).
> >
> > Basically the combination of low voltage chemistry, cool temperature 
> > during use and shallow cycles will provide long life for the cells. 
> > LFP
> has
> > at least 5 to 10 years more calendar life than those mentioned above.
> Then
> > again LTO-cells should have even slower rate of unhoped side 
> > reactions at the chemistry level compared to LFP. But LTO has hard 
> > time to compete against LFP net cost. Which is dirty cheap.
> >
> > Stationary batteries are designed for the use. Meaning their cost to 
> > buffer each kWh and provide power is much much less than the EV type
> cells.
> > Currently for large utility scale units the cost to buffer is around 
> > one cent per kWh.
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-09-23 8:45 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :
> >
> >> I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not
> degrade
> >> much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that
> 'Lithium
> >> batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any
> comment
> >> can be quibbled over.
> >>
> >> What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by
> physical
> >> and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss.
> But
> >> certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.
> >>
> >> The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on 
> >> the
> exact
> >> electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell, 
> >> temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. 
> >> and so on.
> >>
> >> Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the 
> >> body
> of
> >> knowledge will grow and all these difficulties wi

Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Rarely what one can get for free is useless. People even sleep in cardboard
boxes.
So is the idea to push forward the responsibility to recycle? This is no
business per se. If something it's just smarter use of existing resources.

What it comes to better electrolytes.. that is HARD! The testing cycle to
confirm lifetime and usability is way too long. Accelerated aging tests are
not the same at all to real life use. While I have to admit I was wholly
impressed by the Hydro Quebec battery research lab. Boy do they have toys
there! :D (droool) Advancements in R&D are available as we can now see more
deeper and more accurately with color-SEM and such.

Does it not go without saying that one should not use cell-murder (tm)? BMS
has to be done right.

-Jukka

P.S.- Dear Santa. I would like to have a $10bn to research more. Thank You!

2016-09-23 14:47 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :

> Advances in testing are just beginning to drive more effective research.
> For example tiny adjustments in electrolyte components can yield big
> improvements. The testing is faster and provides more granular
> investigations.
>
> Re LFP you mistreat them and they die a quick death, but stationary apps
> you can treat them well.
>
> EV battery packs may not be optimal compared to purpose built stationary
> packs but they are far from useless.
>
> Mike Ross
>
> On Sep 23, 2016 4:43 AM, "Jukka Järvinen"  wrote:
>
> > Usually the internal resistance is growing much faster than the loss of
> > capacity. So if you use the pack in very low power application you will
> be
> > able to use the pack for some time (several years). This is for LCO, LMO
> > and NMC. Maybe NCA too (cannot say for sure yet as I do not have usage
> data
> > from those yet).
> >
> > Basically the combination of low voltage chemistry, cool temperature
> > during use and shallow cycles will provide long life for the cells. LFP
> has
> > at least 5 to 10 years more calendar life than those mentioned above.
> Then
> > again LTO-cells should have even slower rate of unhoped side reactions at
> > the chemistry level compared to LFP. But LTO has hard time to compete
> > against LFP net cost. Which is dirty cheap.
> >
> > Stationary batteries are designed for the use. Meaning their cost to
> > buffer each kWh and provide power is much much less than the EV type
> cells.
> > Currently for large utility scale units the cost to buffer is around one
> > cent per kWh.
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-09-23 8:45 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :
> >
> >> I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not
> degrade
> >> much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that
> 'Lithium
> >> batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any
> comment
> >> can be quibbled over.
> >>
> >> What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by
> physical
> >> and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss.
> But
> >> certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.
> >>
> >> The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on the
> exact
> >> electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell,
> >> temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. and so
> >> on.
> >>
> >> Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the body
> of
> >> knowledge will grow and all these difficulties will drop in
> significance.
> >>
> >> You did not say in what application the degradation to 70% SOC would
> occur
> >> but safe to assume you meant in cars. Tesla already committed to
> creating
> >> rid based applications for "degraded" batteries. Their belief is that
> >> stationary applications are far easier on the cells than mobile and
> >> automotive apps. Allowing us to believe there is a very good chance that
> >> car batteries will likely have a second life.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is
> >> no
> >> longer
> >> useful, and how long will that take?   At least 50%, probably more. 15%
> is
> >> too low for current technologies.
> >>
> >> For example, can the capacity shrink down to 15% SOC and still provide
> >> useful power, how long would that take? Depends.
> >>
> >> It will continue to improve.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Larry Gales via EV  >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Most scenarios assume that Lithium batteries for EVs should be
> replaced
> >> > when they degrade to 70-80% of their initial capacities, after which
> >> they
> >> > might serve as storage batteries for the grid, or a house.  Does
> anyone
> >> > know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no longer
> >> > useful, and how long will that take?   For example, can the capacity
> >> shrink
> >> > down to 15% and still provide useful power, and how long would that
> >> take?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thanks, Larry
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Larry Gales
> >> > -- 

Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Michael Ross via EV]

Advances in testing are just beginning to drive more effective research.
For example tiny adjustments in electrolyte components can yield big
improvements. The testing is faster and provides more granular
investigations.

Re LFP you mistreat them and they die a quick death, but stationary apps
you can treat them well.

EV battery packs may not be optimal compared to purpose built stationary
packs but they are far from useless.

Mike Ross

On Sep 23, 2016 4:43 AM, "Jukka Järvinen"  wrote:

> Usually the internal resistance is growing much faster than the loss of
> capacity. So if you use the pack in very low power application you will be
> able to use the pack for some time (several years). This is for LCO, LMO
> and NMC. Maybe NCA too (cannot say for sure yet as I do not have usage data
> from those yet).
>
> Basically the combination of low voltage chemistry, cool temperature
> during use and shallow cycles will provide long life for the cells. LFP has
> at least 5 to 10 years more calendar life than those mentioned above. Then
> again LTO-cells should have even slower rate of unhoped side reactions at
> the chemistry level compared to LFP. But LTO has hard time to compete
> against LFP net cost. Which is dirty cheap.
>
> Stationary batteries are designed for the use. Meaning their cost to
> buffer each kWh and provide power is much much less than the EV type cells.
> Currently for large utility scale units the cost to buffer is around one
> cent per kWh.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
>
>
> 2016-09-23 8:45 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :
>
>> I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not degrade
>> much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that 'Lithium
>> batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any comment
>> can be quibbled over.
>>
>> What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by physical
>> and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss. But
>> certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.
>>
>> The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on the exact
>> electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell,
>> temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. and so
>> on.
>>
>> Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the body of
>> knowledge will grow and all these difficulties will drop in significance.
>>
>> You did not say in what application the degradation to 70% SOC would occur
>> but safe to assume you meant in cars. Tesla already committed to creating
>> rid based applications for "degraded" batteries. Their belief is that
>> stationary applications are far easier on the cells than mobile and
>> automotive apps. Allowing us to believe there is a very good chance that
>> car batteries will likely have a second life.
>>
>> Does anyone know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is
>> no
>> longer
>> useful, and how long will that take?   At least 50%, probably more. 15% is
>> too low for current technologies.
>>
>> For example, can the capacity shrink down to 15% SOC and still provide
>> useful power, how long would that take? Depends.
>>
>> It will continue to improve.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Larry Gales via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Most scenarios assume that Lithium batteries for EVs should be replaced
>> > when they degrade to 70-80% of their initial capacities, after which
>> they
>> > might serve as storage batteries for the grid, or a house.  Does anyone
>> > know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no longer
>> > useful, and how long will that take?   For example, can the capacity
>> shrink
>> > down to 15% and still provide useful power, and how long would that
>> take?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks, Larry
>> >
>> > --
>> > Larry Gales
>> > -- next part --
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> > URL: > > attachments/20160922/84aa5308/attachment.htm>
>> > ___
>> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
>> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
>> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
>> > group/NEDRA)
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>> Thomas A. Edison
>> 
>>
>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>> *Warren Buffet*
>>
>> Michael E. Ross
>> (919) 585-6737 Land
>> (919) 576-0824  Mobile and
>> Google Phone
>>
>> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
>> 
>> -- next part --
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>> __

Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Usually the internal resistance is growing much faster than the loss of
capacity. So if you use the pack in very low power application you will be
able to use the pack for some time (several years). This is for LCO, LMO
and NMC. Maybe NCA too (cannot say for sure yet as I do not have usage data
from those yet).

Basically the combination of low voltage chemistry, cool temperature during
use and shallow cycles will provide long life for the cells. LFP has at
least 5 to 10 years more calendar life than those mentioned above. Then
again LTO-cells should have even slower rate of unhoped side reactions at
the chemistry level compared to LFP. But LTO has hard time to compete
against LFP net cost. Which is dirty cheap.

Stationary batteries are designed for the use. Meaning their cost to buffer
each kWh and provide power is much much less than the EV type cells.
Currently for large utility scale units the cost to buffer is around one
cent per kWh.

-Jukka




2016-09-23 8:45 GMT+02:00 Michael Ross via EV :

> I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not degrade
> much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that 'Lithium
> batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any comment
> can be quibbled over.
>
> What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by physical
> and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss. But
> certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.
>
> The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on the exact
> electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell,
> temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. and so on.
>
> Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the body of
> knowledge will grow and all these difficulties will drop in significance.
>
> You did not say in what application the degradation to 70% SOC would occur
> but safe to assume you meant in cars. Tesla already committed to creating
> rid based applications for "degraded" batteries. Their belief is that
> stationary applications are far easier on the cells than mobile and
> automotive apps. Allowing us to believe there is a very good chance that
> car batteries will likely have a second life.
>
> Does anyone know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no
> longer
> useful, and how long will that take?   At least 50%, probably more. 15% is
> too low for current technologies.
>
> For example, can the capacity shrink down to 15% SOC and still provide
> useful power, how long would that take? Depends.
>
> It will continue to improve.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Larry Gales via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Most scenarios assume that Lithium batteries for EVs should be replaced
> > when they degrade to 70-80% of their initial capacities, after which they
> > might serve as storage batteries for the grid, or a house.  Does anyone
> > know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no longer
> > useful, and how long will that take?   For example, can the capacity
> shrink
> > down to 15% and still provide useful power, and how long would that take?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Larry
> >
> > --
> > Larry Gales
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:  > attachments/20160922/84aa5308/attachment.htm>
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> > group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
> Thomas A. Edison
> 
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
> *Warren Buffet*
>
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 576-0824  Mobile and
> Google Phone
>
> michael.e.r...@gmail.com
> 
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> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Pleas

Re: [EVDL] 2nd life for lithium batteries

[Michael Ross via EV]

I believe batteries, and Li-ion as well as future designs will not degrade
much for a decade and more when properly managed. Understand that 'Lithium
batteries" covers a large and disparate group of designs. So, any comment
can be quibbled over.

What is known now, a loss of 85% would probably be accompanied by physical
and chemical damage that might render them unreliable at greater loss. But
certainly Li-ion if managed well could be useful down to 30% SOC.

The rub here is "well managed." Proper management will depend on the exact
electrode and electrolyte chemistry, the construction of the cell,
temperature of operation and storage, particularly at high SOC%. and so on.

Anything we say is dependent on a host of variables.  I think the body of
knowledge will grow and all these difficulties will drop in significance.

You did not say in what application the degradation to 70% SOC would occur
but safe to assume you meant in cars. Tesla already committed to creating
rid based applications for "degraded" batteries. Their belief is that
stationary applications are far easier on the cells than mobile and
automotive apps. Allowing us to believe there is a very good chance that
car batteries will likely have a second life.

Does anyone know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no
longer
useful, and how long will that take?   At least 50%, probably more. 15% is
too low for current technologies.

For example, can the capacity shrink down to 15% SOC and still provide
useful power, how long would that take? Depends.

It will continue to improve.

Mike


On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 12:32 AM, Larry Gales via EV 
wrote:

> Most scenarios assume that Lithium batteries for EVs should be replaced
> when they degrade to 70-80% of their initial capacities, after which they
> might serve as storage batteries for the grid, or a house.  Does anyone
> know how low the capacity of a battery can fall before it is no longer
> useful, and how long will that take?   For example, can the capacity shrink
> down to 15% and still provide useful power, and how long would that take?
>
>
>
> Thanks, Larry
>
> --
> Larry Gales
> -- next part --
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> URL:  attachments/20160922/84aa5308/attachment.htm>
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> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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