Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On 5 Aug 2014 at 5:54, Chris Meier via EV wrote: The indoor units come in various shapes/styles, including 'cassette' for in_ceiling or air duct. Some of the dealers may appreciate the challenge. Give one a call. I hope your dealers are more experienced and flexible than the ones I worked with here. :-( I would question about road vibrations on a unit designed for a building/static setting. And there is a minimum refrigerant line length. Ditto on the vibration. I hadn't thought of that. I was aware of the max line length, though it should be ample for any car. I didn't know about a minimum. That could be a problem. Overseas I often see the outdoor units installed on siding brackets, just outside the hotel room or apartment they're cooling (usually lower than the indoor unit). Maybe the minimum lineset length varies with the brand. I do know that you usually have to adjust the factory refrigerant charge for different lineset lengths. If someone tries a mini-split in an EV, I hope he posts the results here. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Using Duck-tape? ;-) Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via EV Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 8:42 AM To: Denis Berube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? How the Dickens does it work without ducks? MW On 3 Aug 2014, at 15:45, Denis Berube via EV wrote: Have you looked at the split duckless ac units. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:10 PM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote: Since you live in AZ, why not an evaporative swamp cooler? They work pretty well in low humidity environments. Sadly, about half the hot season is humid enough for evaporative coolers to be ineffective. Some people have both systems in their homes, because they can save a few pennies that way...but, mot many, and mostly just those who initially had just a swamp cooler before upgrading to an heat pump. A compressor *is* a heat pump. I think my confusion comes from the heat pump only being used for cooling...the heat pumps I'm familiar with all have as a selling point their efficiency at heating as well as cooling. If the batteries are in an insulated box, they won't need much cooling to keep them at a reasonable temperature. There are small chiller units, intended for water coolers and vending machines that could do it. I think I first need to figure out just where I'm going to put the batteries before deciding how to cool them. A lot is going to depend on weight distribution...I know that's something critical, and I don't want to make the car back-heavy, front-heavy, top-heavy, or whatever. I can see various possibilities, from a single box near the rear axle to four boxes near each wheel to a single layer under the cabin to... ...and each would suggest a different approach to cooling b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Thanks, Dennis. Your description of a cooling system -- cold plates and a radiator -- seems like a good starting point. I might have to contemplate adding some sort of an active chiller rather than just rely on a radiator -- again, ambient is often well over 100°F, and can easily get over 120°F near the road surface. Your suggestions on weight distribution have started me down the path of investigating ideal car weight distribution ratios. Since I'll be keeping the V8, and based on what I've been reading so far, the space in the trunk right over the rear axle, right behind the rear seat, might be the best place for all the batteries, but I won't know until I can get the car on scales -- and that won't make sense to do until after all the non-EV work is done. There's also actually some room in the engine compartment, and even a fair bit of room in the front wheel wells (well clear of the wheels). ...but at least I have a better idea of where to go from here b On Aug 4, 2014, at 7:40 PM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Battery cooling, and packaging. I do not like the battery configurations many of the Mass Produced units are designed with. My idealized pack is in two battery boxes , one is between the front wheels giving the understeering handling we are used to.(The car tends go straight) And the second is in front of the rear axle to minimize drifting or skidding on slick surfaces. (Extra weight gives more traction.) The cooling to be accomplished with several cold plates between the cells (Like the noodles in lasagna.) With hoses (Or tubing) connecting to a simple radiator for cooling the non-flammable coolant circulated by a electric pump which can be switched off in cold weather. Put the radiator in the front like an ICE unit or under the cabin floor if a Grill is not in your styling scheme. Put the electric motor(s) in the location used by ICE transmissions. In the winter you can pre-warm the battery cells by use of an aftermarket ICE engine block heater immersed in the coolant below the packs (Warm liquid rises)during charging and while parked at other times on cold days to keep them warm (Usually outlets are provided in colder climates.) Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:10 PM, Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net wrote: Since you live in AZ, why not an evaporative swamp cooler? They work pretty well in low humidity environments. Sadly, about half the hot season is humid enough for evaporative coolers to be ineffective. Some people have both systems in their homes, because they can save a few pennies that way...but, mot many, and mostly just those who initially had just a swamp cooler before upgrading to an heat pump. A compressor *is* a heat pump. I think my confusion comes from the heat pump only being used for cooling...the heat pumps I'm familiar with all have as a selling point their efficiency at heating as well as cooling. If the batteries are in an insulated box, they won't need much cooling to keep them at a reasonable temperature. There are small chiller units, intended for water coolers and vending machines that could do it. I think I first need to figure out just where I'm going to put the batteries before deciding how to cool them. A lot is going to depend on weight distribution...I know that's something critical, and I don't want to make the car back-heavy, front-heavy, top-heavy, or whatever. I can see various possibilities, from a single box near the rear axle to four boxes near each wheel to a single layer under the cabin to... ...and each would suggest a different approach to cooling b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140804/9174e01f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Before selecting a A/C unit, a calculation of how much heat gain or lost there is between a inside surface of a structure and the outside structure. One ton of A/C is equal to 12,000 bturs. 3420 bturs equal 1000 watts. The formula is: bturs = SF x u factor x TD SF is the square foot area of the exterior surfaces U is equal to 1/R TD is the Temperature Difference between the temperature of the outside surface to the inside surface. Calculation for a passenger compartment of a vehicle not insulated: Single pane class is 1 R-Factor Single panel of sheet metal is 1 R-Factor Therefore the u-factor is 1/R = 1u. For heating loss, we use 100 F. degree temperature difference (TD) to maintain a interior temperature of 70 F. at 30 below 0. or TD = 100 For A/C heat gain, we use a 70 F. degree temperature difference (TD) to maintain a interior temperature of 70 F. at 140 F ambient or TD = 70 The calculation which I use for my EV: My SF = 175 SF of the interior passenger The u-factor would be 1/1 or 1U if not insulated The TD = 70 F. Therefore: Btur's = 175 SF x 1 U-factor x 70 F TD = 12250 bturs. One ton of A/C = 12000 btur's Minimum size of A/C unit will be 12250/12000 = 1.02 ton Adding insulation which I install two layers of 1 inch soft foam in the door panels and firewalls. Insulated the floor with 1 inch of firm DOW blue board foam with a layer of 1 inch soft foam and carpet. This reduce the btur's to about half. Heating only takes 640 watts at 120 vac 60 hz (continuous ON) at 0 F. If I want the heater to cycle, than I switch in another 740 watt heater. The power comes from my rotating inverter/alternator that is rated at 7kw. Roland - Original Message - From: Jan Steinman via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org ; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org ... are there heat pump systems rather than compressor units that might be more energy efficient? The compressor-based system in almost all consumer things that reduce temperature *is* a heat pump. The only one that I know of that is different is the Einstein evaporator used in many multi-powered camping refrigerators. Rapid growth in the human energy base has broken down old biological and cultural diversity, and simultaneously led to proliferation of human numbers and individual diversity. The climaxing and decline of energy will inevitably result in a reduction of human numbers, and possibly individual diversity, while stimulating the re-emergence of localised biological and cultural diversity. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140803/0d01e1bc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Hello Dennis, There must be different efficiency in A/C units depending on optional items that are added to the units. Both of theses units have dehydrators in them to maintain a minimum of 50% humidity at plus or minus 1 percent for electronics and electrical equipment. I have one unit that requires 1050 watts for 9000 btu/r which I purchase about 18 years ago. I have another unit that requires 1040 watts for 1 btu/r which I purchase last year. Roland - Original Message - From: Dennis Milesmailto:dmiles33...@gmail.com To: Rolandmailto:e...@msn.com ; Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? This is an interesting point you stated, One ton of A/C is equal to 12,000 btus/hr. and 3420 btus/hr equals 1000 watts. However, it applies to direct conversion such as resistance heating, and not to the compressor operated, gaseous to liquid, state changing, Heat Pump, as that system, so widely used, is not converting the electrical energy into heat or cool, It is moving the heat. (By absorbing head with liquid to gas vaporization. And releasing heat by compressing the vapor, resulting in a state change to liquid and subsequently the heat of vaporization previously absorbed, is given off . This heat-pumping works for space cooling, as well as heating. The placard on my home heat pump (a unit manufactured in 1985) shows an EER (Energy Efficiency Rating) of 13, indicating the BTUs moved into or out of my home, only require 1/13 of the comparable electrical energy, as if used to heat the air, and the 3.5 ton only uses 945 watts, to produce 42,000 btus/hr, (Plus f an motor consumption.) of heating,or cooling, energy flow. (I agree with you other computations it is only the conversion of one ton of AC @ 12,000 btus/hr by using the 3420 btus/hr as cooling electrical energy of 1,000 watts indicating 4.7hp for a one ton ac being a possible point of confusion to which I object.) Dennis Lee Miles (evprofes...@evprofessor.commailto:evprofes...@evprofessor.com) Founder:EV Tech. Institute Inc. Phone # (863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time) Educating yourself, does not mean you were stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, to know, that there is plenty left to learn! You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLsshttp://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Before selecting a A/C unit, a calculation of how much heat gain or lost there is between a inside surface of a structure and the outside structure. One ton of A/C is equal to 12,000 bturs. 3420 bturs equal 1000 watts. The formula is: bturs = SF x u factor x TD SF is the square foot area of the exterior surfaces U is equal to 1/R TD is the Temperature Difference between the temperature of the outside surface to the inside surface. Calculation for a passenger compartment of a vehicle not insulated: Single pane class is 1 R-Factor Single panel of sheet metal is 1 R-Factor Therefore the u-factor is 1/R = 1u. For heating loss, we use 100 F. degree temperature difference (TD) to maintain a interior temperature of 70 F. at 30 below 0. or TD = 100 For A/C heat gain, we use a 70 F. degree temperature difference (TD) to maintain a interior temperature of 70 F. at 140 F ambient or TD = 70 The calculation which I use for my EV: My SF = 175 SF of the interior passenger The u-factor would be 1/1 or 1U if not insulated The TD = 70 F. Therefore: Btur's = 175 SF x 1 U-factor x 70 F TD = 12250 bturs. One ton of A/C = 12000 btur's Minimum size of A/C unit will be 12250/12000 = 1.02 ton Adding insulation which I install two layers of 1 inch soft foam in the door panels and firewalls. Insulated the floor with 1 inch of firm DOW blue board foam with a layer of 1 inch soft foam and carpet. This reduce the btur's to about half. Heating only takes 640 watts at 120 vac 60 hz (continuous ON) at 0 F. If I want the heater to cycle, than I switch in another 740 watt heater. The power comes from my rotating inverter/alternator that is rated at 7kw. Roland - Original Message - From: Jan Steinman via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org ; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev-requ...@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev-requ...@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org ... are there heat pump
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
One ton of A/C is equal to 12,000 btus/hr. and 3420 btus/hr equals 1000 watts. However, it applies to direct conversion such as resistance heating, and not to the compressor operated...Heat Pump, ...my home heat pump shows an EER of 13, indicating the BTUs moved...only require 1/13 of the comparable electrical energy, Careful. EER ignores units to come up wth a marketing number that looks good (13), But that is 13 times more BTU's than WATTS in. So to understand true energy, you have to convert them to the same units (divide by 3.42 BTU/W) and so the actual conversion is 13/3.42 or about 3.8. Still much better than direct (resistance) conversion, but not 13 to 1. Bob, WB4APR -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140803/2b50e234/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On the other hand a friend in St Petersburg, FL. uses a 7,500 BTU ac in his S-10 Pickup (About a 400 watt load) and runs it from a 1,000 Watt 110v. inverter... Your 25000 to 3 btu/hr are two to two and a half tons (Same as HP or similar to Kw. ) and that is as much a a small house. I used a 42,000 btu/hr a-cond to cool a 2,240 sq ft manufactured home in Florida, and it ran 2/3 s of the time. And now I am using 7,500 btu to cool 900 sq ft with better insulation... Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:22 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 1 Aug 2014 at 13:17, Ben Goren via EV wrote: it probably also makes sense to get an air conditioner that runs [on] the 12V system so it, too, can run when the car is plugged [in] ... I'm not so sure. I've read that a typical automotive aircon moves around 25000 to 3 btu/hr. That can take a fair bit of power and energy. For example, I just found (online) a 24500 btu/hr LG room aircon that uses 12.7 amps at 230 volts (2.9kW assuming unity power factor). A comparably efficient unit running on 12.7 volts would require 230 amps. That's a pretty sizable long-term load for your 12v system. To look at it another way, you'd need twelve fully charged 90ah lithium cells to run that aircon for an hour. Even at 50% duty cycle, you'd still need eight 60ah cells. The energy usage isn't so much of a problem if you're just talking about cooling the car while it's parked and charging, though don't forget that any power the aircon uses isn't available for charging. However, you'd still have to have a pretty robust 12v system to power it. I think you'd be better off with an aircon powered by the main traction pack voltage. At least the current required would be more manageable. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140802/fb6f68fc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Thanks for the help with that math. I've thought about adding insulation for both thermal efficiency and road noise reduction, and I'll be getting a windshield reflector thingie today. I was at my shade-tree mechanic's yesterday, and he, too, was skeptical of using either electric system for A/C. But...I'm now wondering: are there heat pump systems rather than compressor units that might be more energy efficient? I mean, short of hanging an apartment A/C unit out the window Regardless, I think electrically-powered A/C may be lower on the priority list. The original impetus was to use it to cool the batteries...but I'm now leaning towards insulated battery boxes with Peltier coolers. I can probably use the car's steel frame for the hot side heat sink depending on where the boxes get mounted, and a computer CPU heatsink and fan assembly inside the box for circulation. -- and probably use multiple small coolers rather than a single large one. It'd still be nice to keep the vehicle interior below ambient when plugged in, especially this time of year...but that can be a luxury add-on down the road. b On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On the other hand a friend in St Petersburg, FL. uses a 7,500 BTU ac in his S-10 Pickup (About a 400 watt load) and runs it from a 1,000 Watt 110v. inverter... Your 25000 to 3 btu/hr are two to two and a half tons (Same as HP or similar to Kw. ) and that is as much a a small house. I used a 42,000 btu/hr a-cond to cool a 2,240 sq ft manufactured home in Florida, and it ran 2/3 s of the time. And now I am using 7,500 btu to cool 900 sq ft with better insulation... Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:22 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 1 Aug 2014 at 13:17, Ben Goren via EV wrote: it probably also makes sense to get an air conditioner that runs [on] the 12V system so it, too, can run when the car is plugged [in] ... I'm not so sure. I've read that a typical automotive aircon moves around 25000 to 3 btu/hr. That can take a fair bit of power and energy. For example, I just found (online) a 24500 btu/hr LG room aircon that uses 12.7 amps at 230 volts (2.9kW assuming unity power factor). A comparably efficient unit running on 12.7 volts would require 230 amps. That's a pretty sizable long-term load for your 12v system. To look at it another way, you'd need twelve fully charged 90ah lithium cells to run that aircon for an hour. Even at 50% duty cycle, you'd still need eight 60ah cells. The energy usage isn't so much of a problem if you're just talking about cooling the car while it's parked and charging, though don't forget that any power the aircon uses isn't available for charging. However, you'd still have to have a pretty robust 12v system to power it. I think you'd be better off with an aircon powered by the main traction pack voltage. At least the current required would be more manageable. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140802/fb6f68fc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140802/d33eaa1b/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
I think the solar gain has less to do with the glass than the small cabin size. While involved with designing climate controlled cabins (at Caterpillar) I learned that that any glass you have - whatever tint level - re-radiates the absorbed energy into the cabin. The main effect of tint is to reduce the heat felt on the skin - the AC load remains the same. Likewise, the roof, walls, everything basically sinks heat until equilibrium. No amount of insulation mitigates this when you are just out in the sun for long periods. Insulation slows the conduction, it can't really stop it. Convection from motion helps, but absorption and conduction carry on as always. If you could make the cab into a vacuum bottle... The load on the AC ends up being pretty simple to estimate - how much area is in the sun. It is hard to win this game. Reflecting light back out when not moving is always effective. Reflective tints (not generally legal in US) don't actually reflect much energy - the glass still absorbs the bulk of it, and it is radiated in as IR. On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:26 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 2 Aug 2014 at 2:03, Dennis Miles via EV wrote: On the other hand a friend in St Petersburg, FL. uses a 7,500 BTU ac in his S-10 Pickup (About a 400 watt load) and runs it from a 1,000 Watt 110v. inverter... I can absolutely believe that. Pickup cabs are typically fairly small. They also usually have relatively vertical glass, for less solar gain than most cars. Besides ... http://evdl.org/images/aircon-daewoo.jpg ;-) Your 25000 to 3 btu/hr are two to two and a half tons (Same as HP or similar to Kw. ) and that is as much a a small house. Exactly! A passenger car with lots of glass area and poor insulation can easily take that much capacity to cool. However, now that I think about it, I'd guess that much of that capacity is there so the car cools down quickly after it's been sitting in the hot sun. You could no doubt use a much lower capacity aircon unit if you allowed plenty of time to pre-cool it. (Or always parked in the shade. ;-) David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140802/72277c31/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Hi Ben and All, Both classicautoair and vintageair make period some even stock A/C units for yours. These are the same car dealers installed on new cars like yours then. Just belt it to the EV motor with the clutch to the brakelight switch though a relay/contactor and a thermostat in traffic you can run it off braking power a lot of the time. Or run it from a DC motor. Or repackage a window AC off an inverter but unlikely to have the room for that. For your inline motor/s the 6.7'' D+D Sep Ex will give you better performance with regen and much better high end power for lower costs. Don't get them together as just costly and a pain to work on. I mounted my double motor set up on 2 3'' alum angles as a motor bed kept them inline and easy to do. Jerry Dycus On Saturday, August 2, 2014 10:06 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks for the help with that math. I've thought about adding insulation for both thermal efficiency and road noise reduction, and I'll be getting a windshield reflector thingie today. I was at my shade-tree mechanic's yesterday, and he, too, was skeptical of using either electric system for A/C. But...I'm now wondering: are there heat pump systems rather than compressor units that might be more energy efficient? I mean, short of hanging an apartment A/C unit out the window Regardless, I think electrically-powered A/C may be lower on the priority list. The original impetus was to use it to cool the batteries...but I'm now leaning towards insulated battery boxes with Peltier coolers. I can probably use the car's steel frame for the hot side heat sink depending on where the boxes get mounted, and a computer CPU heatsink and fan assembly inside the box for circulation. -- and probably use multiple small coolers rather than a single large one. It'd still be nice to keep the vehicle interior below ambient when plugged in, especially this time of year...but that can be a luxury add-on down the road. b On Aug 1, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On the other hand a friend in St Petersburg, FL. uses a 7,500 BTU ac in his S-10 Pickup (About a 400 watt load) and runs it from a 1,000 Watt 110v. inverter... Your 25000 to 3 btu/hr are two to two and a half tons (Same as HP or similar to Kw. ) and that is as much a a small house. I used a 42,000 btu/hr a-cond to cool a 2,240 sq ft manufactured home in Florida, and it ran 2/3 s of the time. And now I am using 7,500 btu to cool 900 sq ft with better insulation... Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 12:22 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 1 Aug 2014 at 13:17, Ben Goren via EV wrote: it probably also makes sense to get an air conditioner that runs [on] the 12V system so it, too, can run when the car is plugged [in] ... I'm not so sure. I've read that a typical automotive aircon moves around 25000 to 3 btu/hr. That can take a fair bit of power and energy. For example, I just found (online) a 24500 btu/hr LG room aircon that uses 12.7 amps at 230 volts (2.9kW assuming unity power factor). A comparably efficient unit running on 12.7 volts would require 230 amps. That's a pretty sizable long-term load for your 12v system. To look at it another way, you'd need twelve fully charged 90ah lithium cells to run that aircon for an hour. Even at 50% duty cycle, you'd still need eight 60ah cells. The energy usage isn't so much of a problem if you're just talking about cooling the car while it's parked and charging, though don't forget that any power the aircon uses isn't available for charging. However, you'd still have to have a pretty robust 12v system to power it. I think you'd be better off with an aircon powered by the main traction pack voltage. At least the current required would be more manageable. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
I think Dennis was speaking more of the angle of the glass relative to the sun rather than the type of glass. Certainly, if a pane of glass was parallel to the rays of sunlight, it would transfer virtually no heat or light (only that reflected from other surfaces). But they type of glass does make a difference. In residential and commercial glass, there's a rating called Solar Heat Gain Coefficient (SHGC) and there are treatments that have quite a spread of effects - without tinting. I have no idea if any of these are allowed for windshields. Or, perhaps, they are already used. Second, insulation makes a huge difference. True, nothing will stop heat from entering over time. But slowing down the rate of energy absorbed directly relates to the energy needed for cooling. If you slow the heat absorption down by 50%, you would need 50% less cooling capacity (for the heat coming through non glass areas). Peri -- Original Message -- From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: EVDL Administrator evp...@drmm.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 02-Aug-14 7:41:47 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? I think the solar gain has less to do with the glass than the small cabin size. While involved with designing climate controlled cabins (at Caterpillar) I learned that that any glass you have - whatever tint level - re-radiates the absorbed energy into the cabin. The main effect of tint is to reduce the heat felt on the skin - the AC load remains the same. Likewise, the roof, walls, everything basically sinks heat until equilibrium. No amount of insulation mitigates this when you are just out in the sun for long periods. Insulation slows the conduction, it can't really stop it. Convection from motion helps, but absorption and conduction carry on as always. If you could make the cab into a vacuum bottle... The load on the AC ends up being pretty simple to estimate - how much area is in the sun. It is hard to win this game. Reflecting light back out when not moving is always effective. Reflective tints (not generally legal in US) don't actually reflect much energy - the glass still absorbs the bulk of it, and it is radiated in as IR. On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 3:26 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 2 Aug 2014 at 2:03, Dennis Miles via EV wrote: On the other hand a friend in St Petersburg, FL. uses a 7,500 BTU ac in his S-10 Pickup (About a 400 watt load) and runs it from a 1,000 Watt 110v. inverter... I can absolutely believe that. Pickup cabs are typically fairly small. They also usually have relatively vertical glass, for less solar gain than most cars. Besides ... http://evdl.org/images/aircon-daewoo.jpg ;-) Your 25000 to 3 btu/hr are two to two and a half tons (Same as HP or similar to Kw. ) and that is as much a a small house. Exactly! A passenger car with lots of glass area and poor insulation can easily take that much capacity to cool. However, now that I think about it, I'd guess that much of that capacity is there so the car cools down quickly after it's been sitting in the hot sun. You could no doubt use a much lower capacity aircon unit if you allowed plenty of time to pre-cool it. (Or always parked in the shade. ;-) David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140802/72277c31/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On 08/02/2014 09:51 AM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi Ben and All, Both classicautoair and vintageair make period some even stock A/C units for yours. These are the same car dealers installed on new cars like yours then. Just belt it to the EV motor with the clutch to the brakelight switch though a relay/contactor and a thermostat in traffic you can run it off braking power a lot of the time. Or run it from a DC motor. Or repackage a window AC off an inverter but unlikely to have the room for that. Here is a cautionary tale of conversions and air conditioning. My Hyundai conversion was initially done with the original compressor driven off the tail shaft of my Warp9. Space constraints resulted in a belt geometry that wrapped around the compressor pulley only 30-45 deg. It proven impossible to keep enough tension on the belt to meet the torque demands of the compressor. After much messing around, a second geometry was tried a year of two later. This time, the belt wrapped most of the way around the compressor pulley but the idler/tensioner was on the tension side of the belt. This, apparently, lead to premature compressor failure. Well, I wasn't real happy with the belt drive anyway. The load on the tail shaft made shifting tedious since I had no clutch. Next, I tried a MasterFlux compressor driven by the MasterFlux supplied DC, pack voltage, motor. It ran only a hour or two before failing. Since the compressor was not of sufficient size, I eager accepted a refund, losing only my installation costs. Wayne reported here that he was using a 12vdc driven compressor with good results. Simple calculation revealed that there is just no way that a 300w DC-DC can keep up with a sufficiently sized compressor. So, I did not try that. Next, I tried (name escapes me; perhaps Steve will supply) pack voltage driven compressor. It seemed to be of sufficient size/capacity but the supplier was very difficult to deal with. I would never consider buying from them again. It eventually took about 18 months to get the thing that was initially quoted as about 2 months delivery time. I now have the car loaned out and just received a report that the AC blew up. I don't know how long it operated, probably just a few hours. Those are only the high points of my AC adventure. I'm eager to hear of conversion air conditioner success stories. I suspect they would involve: 1) a belt driven compresson 2) a clutched conversion 3) a generous size engine bay In around 7 years of use, I have had a working air conditioner for only brief periods and the cost has been around $10k. Maybe more. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On 2 Aug 2014 at 11:52, Willie2 via EV wrote: I'm eager to hear of conversion air conditioner success stories. Solectria vehicles retained the factory Geo Metro aircon system, and drove the compressor with a small (1hp?) DC brushless motor and controller. The system seems to have been robust and reliable, if somewhat noisy. It used about 1500 watts from the traction battery. The additional cost for a 1994 Force with aircon was $2700. I assume that some of that was the cost of the system in the donor Geo Metro, and some was the Solectria motor and controller, but I don't know how those two factors balanced out. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
How about getting the air-conditioner from a wrecked Leaf? On our (non-wrecked) 2012 Leaf, the A/C uses hardly any juice as compared to its hot-water electric resistance heating system, which will use either 1500 or 3000 watts, depending on how much you ask it to do. I think the A/C probably only draws 500W, judging by the dash display. It's pretty surprising how much power the Leaf heater draws. The 2013 later Leaf has a heat pump instead, giving a significant increase in range. My wife uses a winter coat, fuzzy boots, and a lap blanket to increase range on her winter commutes (with heated seats and steering wheel engaged). Fortunately we live in a mild climate, mostly needing the heater only enough to keep the windshield from fogging up. Regards, Marion On 08/ 2/14 01:18 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 2 Aug 2014 at 11:52, Willie2 via EV wrote: I'm eager to hear of conversion air conditioner success stories. Solectria vehicles retained the factory Geo Metro aircon system, and drove the compressor with a small (1hp?) DC brushless motor and controller. The system seems to have been robust and reliable, if somewhat noisy. It used about 1500 watts from the traction battery. The additional cost for a 1994 Force with aircon was $2700. I assume that some of that was the cost of the system in the donor Geo Metro, and some was the Solectria motor and controller, but I don't know how those two factors balanced out. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On Aug 2, 2014, at 7:51 AM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Both classicautoair and vintageair make period some even stock A/C units for yours. Thanks, Jerry, for those references. They're going on the short list of options, especially in light of subsequent posts. On Aug 2, 2014, at 8:06 AM, Roland e...@msn.com wrote: What I did was install all the accessories off a separated aluminum mounting accessories mounting plate that are use on some engines. Were I going a traditional BEV route, with the electric motor going in the same general physical space as the V8 currently is, that'd probably be an ideal solution. But it seems likely that, one way or another, the electric motors are going to wind up on the underside of the car somewhere below the cabin, so a physical coupling to an auxiliary shaft probably isn't going to be practical, alas. On Aug 2, 2014, at 9:52 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here is a cautionary tale of conversions and air conditioning. Thanks for that, Willie. It's a splash of cold water that's making me think that any sort of electric solution is going to have to beat just turning on the V8 and letting it idle to power the air conditioner, even in electric mode. That'll require the ability to decouple the accelerator pedal from the carburetor as discussed yesterday, but that's likely something that'll need to be done regardless. (Another thought on that is a wireless electronic throttle on the carb, though there's a lot to be said for something mechanical.) On Aug 2, 2014, at 1:18 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 2 Aug 2014 at 6:48, Ben Goren via EV wrote: I'm now leaning towards insulated battery boxes with Peltier coolers. I don't follow trends in that world, so maybe there've been some dramatic improvements in Peltier device efficiency. I'll admit that I know of no such advances, and was simply guessing that beer cooler cooling capacity would likely be good enough for batteries, considering most people don't cool batteries at all. I likely wouldn't be worried about active cooling for batteries were it not for the fact that I'm in Arizona. Maybe I should start over: _should_ I be worried about active cooling for batteries? And, if so, what're good ways to go about it? On Aug 2, 2014, at 1:18 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 2 Aug 2014 at 11:52, Willie2 via EV wrote: I'm eager to hear of conversion air conditioner success stories. Solectria vehicles retained the factory Geo Metro aircon system, and drove the compressor with a small (1hp?) DC brushless motor and controller. The system seems to have been robust and reliable, if somewhat noisy. It used about 1500 watts from the traction battery. That's an interesting thought. If I have the math right, that's all of 7 - 10 amps at the 144 volts I'm planning on for the traction battery. And, for long trips that would run down the traction battery, I could always (once I've got all the programming figured out) run the regen on the motors (with motive power, of course, coming from the V8) at just enough load to power the air conditioner. I'll have to work some numbers with the power requirements for those Classic Auto Air and Vintage Air units Jerry suggested. On Aug 2, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Marion Hakanson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: How about getting the air-conditioner from a wrecked Leaf? Hadn't thought of it. That, too, is going on the short list -- and other modern BEVs and PHEVs, too, I suppose. Thanks! It's pretty surprising how much power the Leaf heater draws. Fortunately -- or not -- heating isn't much of a concern here in Arizona. Quite the opposite, in fact A wimpy, underpowered ceramic heating option may well meet the 80 / 20 rule, with the V8 providing heat as a fallback in those very rare circumstances that I might need more than what a small heater plus a jacket would take care of. For that matter, no heater at all is probably good enough, at least initially. Thanks again, everybody, for all your help! b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140802/defb7f3c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Or do what the classic Prius does: It *can* drive pure electric for a few miles, but if you want A/C then the engine must be running, since the AirCo compressor is in the usual place, on the serpentine belt, powered by the crankshaft pulley together with the water pump. Later Prius have electric AirCo. The Prius computer even stops/starts the engine for the AirCo, so it is not only the electric clutch on the compressor being powered, but even the entire engine that cycles on/off with the AirCo demand. Soo - if there is a traditional AirCo solution for your car, that may be the way to go, even after making it a Hybrid. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 2:47 PM To: jerry freedomev; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? On Aug 2, 2014, at 7:51 AM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Both classicautoair and vintageair make period some even stock A/C units for yours. Thanks, Jerry, for those references. They're going on the short list of options, especially in light of subsequent posts. On Aug 2, 2014, at 8:06 AM, Roland e...@msn.com wrote: What I did was install all the accessories off a separated aluminum mounting accessories mounting plate that are use on some engines. Were I going a traditional BEV route, with the electric motor going in the same general physical space as the V8 currently is, that'd probably be an ideal solution. But it seems likely that, one way or another, the electric motors are going to wind up on the underside of the car somewhere below the cabin, so a physical coupling to an auxiliary shaft probably isn't going to be practical, alas. On Aug 2, 2014, at 9:52 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here is a cautionary tale of conversions and air conditioning. Thanks for that, Willie. It's a splash of cold water that's making me think that any sort of electric solution is going to have to beat just turning on the V8 and letting it idle to power the air conditioner, even in electric mode. That'll require the ability to decouple the accelerator pedal from the carburetor as discussed yesterday, but that's likely something that'll need to be done regardless. (Another thought on that is a wireless electronic throttle on the carb, though there's a lot to be said for something mechanical.) On Aug 2, 2014, at 1:18 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 2 Aug 2014 at 6:48, Ben Goren via EV wrote: I'm now leaning towards insulated battery boxes with Peltier coolers. I don't follow trends in that world, so maybe there've been some dramatic improvements in Peltier device efficiency. I'll admit that I know of no such advances, and was simply guessing that beer cooler cooling capacity would likely be good enough for batteries, considering most people don't cool batteries at all. I likely wouldn't be worried about active cooling for batteries were it not for the fact that I'm in Arizona. Maybe I should start over: _should_ I be worried about active cooling for batteries? And, if so, what're good ways to go about it? On Aug 2, 2014, at 1:18 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 2 Aug 2014 at 11:52, Willie2 via EV wrote: I'm eager to hear of conversion air conditioner success stories. Solectria vehicles retained the factory Geo Metro aircon system, and drove the compressor with a small (1hp?) DC brushless motor and controller. The system seems to have been robust and reliable, if somewhat noisy. It used about 1500 watts from the traction battery. That's an interesting thought. If I have the math right, that's all of 7 - 10 amps at the 144 volts I'm planning on for the traction battery. And, for long trips that would run down the traction battery, I could always (once I've got all the programming figured out) run the regen on the motors (with motive power, of course, coming from the V8) at just enough load to power the air conditioner. I'll have to work some numbers with the power requirements for those Classic Auto Air and Vintage Air units Jerry suggested. On Aug 2, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Marion Hakanson via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: How about getting the air-conditioner from a wrecked Leaf? Hadn't thought of it. That, too, is going on the short list -- and other modern BEVs and PHEVs, too, I suppose. Thanks! It's pretty surprising how much power the Leaf heater draws. Fortunately -- or not -- heating isn't much of a concern here in Arizona. Quite the opposite, in fact A wimpy, underpowered ceramic heating option may well meet the 80 / 20 rule, with the V8 providing heat as a fallback in those very rare circumstances that I might need more than what a small heater
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Ben Goren via EV wrote: I've thought about adding insulation for both thermal efficiency and road noise reduction Insulation helps in both of these respects. Cars are *woefully* badly insulated. Insulation has a major effect on how much energy you'll need to heat or cool it. You can run the ICE just as a heater. ICEs are really efficient at producing heat! :-) Since you live in AZ, why not an evaporative swamp cooler? They work pretty well in low humidity environments. are there heat pump systems rather than compressor units that might be more energy efficient? I mean, short of hanging an apartment A/C unit out the window A compressor *is* a heat pump. An apartment air conditioner isn't as bad a choice as you might think. They have to meet efficiency guidelines; cars don't. A good window air conditioner is probably twice as efficient as the best car air conditioner. I wonder if one would fit in the trunk, above the rear axle? You could use the fake fender air scoops to get air to cool the evaporator, and have the condenser blow its air into the package shelf under the rear window. The original impetus was to use it to cool the batteries... If the batteries are in an insulated box, they won't need much cooling to keep them at a reasonable temperature. There are small chiller units, intended for water coolers and vending machines that could do it. Peltier coolers... As others have mentioned, these have *really* low efficiencies. -- Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends. -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Has anybody mentioned the Echo Drive (by Echo Automotive) yet? It sounds like it is a VERY close fit to what the original poster was looking for. Basically the Echo Drive is a motor that bolts onto the end of the transmission and connects to (a shortened?) drive shaft. It has a 9 kWh battery box that mounts (under a light truck/van) in the position of where the spare tire would normally go. The idea is a bolt on solution to make a truck or delivery van into a plug in hybrid to save lots of gas. I believe it plugs into the CAN bus to detect engine data and adds thrust when needed (and can re-gen if the batteries are getting low), but they mentioned that they have a stalk that adds to the steering column to allow the driver to control extra re-gen for braking, so perhaps it doesn't require CAN bus support. The battery box supports 120v and 240 volt charging. http://www.echoautomotive.com/ http://www.echoautomotive.com/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=8#whatisechodrive I believe they are currently in the prototyping and testing stages (not shipping actual products) and working with some research labs and firms to get some data from actual fleet vehicles, but they may be interested in building one into a Mustang for promotional purposes, especially if you offered to pay them for it. Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlPdlAAACgkQSWJjSgPNbM9CygCgjvU+n8k0p+ARo/5IxKJHLOvQ GGQAnRLFBcYpilmoQ6ZcT4Z6wkezzJo4 =xKkN -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org ... are there heat pump systems rather than compressor units that might be more energy efficient? The compressor-based system in almost all consumer things that reduce temperature *is* a heat pump. The only one that I know of that is different is the Einstein evaporator used in many multi-powered camping refrigerators. Rapid growth in the human energy base has broken down old biological and cultural diversity, and simultaneously led to proliferation of human numbers and individual diversity. The climaxing and decline of energy will inevitably result in a reduction of human numbers, and possibly individual diversity, while stimulating the re-emergence of localised biological and cultural diversity. -- David Holmgren Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org ... I'm now leaning towards insulated battery boxes with Peltier coolers. Peltier devices are notoriously inefficient. What about situating your batteries such that air flow from your vehicle travel cools your batteries, possibly aided by ductwork? That is nearly-free cooling, as the air is rushing past anyway. My guess is that any battery cooling scheme that consumes battery power is going to be a net loss. You know what? What makes our economy grow is energy. And Americans are used to going to the gas tank (sic), and when they put that hose in their, uh, tank, and when I do it, I wanna get gas out of it. And when I turn the light switch on, I want the lights to go on, and I don't want somebody to tell me I gotta change my way of living to satisfy them. Because this is America, and this is something we've worked our way into, and the American people are entitled to it, and if we're going improve (sic) our standard of living, you have to consume more energy. -- Chuck Grassley Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
One more idea, to confuse you even more :) You could drop the tranny and keep the ICE. That tranny is rather long and there may be room in the space to put a large motor and a generator without modifying the tunnel.The generator would charge the battery or directly run the motor, depending on load conditions. The befefits: - you can have the ICE kick in automatically when the load requires it or the battery becomes low; - the ICE can run at an optimal RPM for best efficiency; - you might need less mods to the underbody. Cons: - there might not be enough room for both gen and motor in the tranny space; - you would need a larger motor to get the total hp (kw) that you desire; - you would need a special mounting bracket for the generator; - some efficiency loss over having the ICE connected to the driveshaft. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-Jul-14 1:46:53 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? Ben Goren via EV wrote: Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic car... The Ghia happened to have several attractive attributes for an EV. It was very light, it was reasonable aerodynamics, and enough room for batteries. John Bryan's Ghia was one example. He carefully measured the efficiency of his Ghia, and got it under 100 watthours/mile. That's good enough for a 100-mile range even on lead-acid batteries. The only cars that do better are things like James Worden's Sunrise, which was built as an EV from the ground up, and got as low as 60 watthours per mile. But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday. The Mustang is still a pretty good candidate. It's still a small light car, and the aerodynamics aren't too terrible. Plus, it's a classic car that many can appreciate! I believe John Wayland converted one for someone. He's a genius at building beautiful high-performance conversions -- have you contacted him for details? I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles A low range expectation makes your job a lot easier. I've been reading this thread while on vacation, and you have received a lot of great advice. It must be confusing; but it's better to have too many choices rather than too few, though it may not seem that way at the time. :-) I'm interested as well, as I have a small Chevy pickup and have been thinking about exactly the same sort of conversion. I don't know much about what Netgain was doing in their solution. If you have contact information on it, let me know! Given their other products, I'm sure it was a DC brushed motor. This would be a cheaper approach, and would deliver far more torque for its size than AC. If their motor had interpoles or a sepex field, it could also have done regen as easily as an AC motor. I don't think your hybrid control problems will be nearly as difficult as you think. The Mustang just has a carburetor and simple throttle linkage. Add the EV controller's potbox to the accelerator linkage. Then add some kind of mechanical link that disconnects the throttle linkage from the carburetor when you switch to EV mode (so you're not pumping the gas and flooding the engine when it's not running). Then, provide a manual switch to select: - ICE mode: Carburetor linkage connected, EV controller off. - EV mode: Carburetor linkage disconnected, EV controller on. Shift to neutral so you're not forcing the ICE to rotate. - Hybrid: Bot enable at once. In hybrid mode, both the ICE and EV motor will naturally provide an amount of torque controlled by the accelerator pedal. They won't fight each other; their torques will just add. If you're in ICE mode and driving at some particular speed and accelerator pedal position and turn on hybrid mode, the EV motor will add torque, and you will speed up. But your natural response to lift the gas pedal slightly will correct for it. If the EV motor/controller has regen, you will get it just by letting up the gas pedal. You could also shift the transmission to neutral, so as much as possible of your braking is done by the EV motor. It won't matter for your car, but in a vehicle with power steering, power brakes, air conditioning, etc. one could also leave the ICE idling in EV mode (since the throttle linkage is disconnected). This way, the ICE powers all the accessories, using a minimal amount of gasoline, while you EV motor does all the driving. Thus, you can drive it manually with only a little finesse. It only gets complicated if you want a system that automatically starts and stops the ICE, and switches between modes based on some criteria. -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On Jul 31, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I believe John Wayland converted one for someone. He's a genius at building beautiful high-performance conversions -- have you contacted him for details? Didn't occur to me to actually try to contact one of the EV gods. But I suppose it can't hurt to send him an email I don't know much about what Netgain was doing in their solution. If you have contact information on it, let me know! I just called the number on their Web site. The person (whose name, unfortunately, escapes me) whom the receptionist transferred me to was the lead in the project and more than eager to talk about it; I'm sure he'd welcome a call from you. Given their other products, I'm sure it was a DC brushed motor. If I remember right, it was a siamese'd pair of 6 - 7 WarP-style motors. Add the EV controller's potbox to the accelerator linkage. Then add some kind of mechanical link that disconnects the throttle linkage from the carburetor when you switch to EV mode (so you're not pumping the gas and flooding the engine when it's not running). Hadn't thought of a mechanical linkage for the disconnect; I had instead been thinking along the lines of an electric fuel pump and, possibly, electronic fuel injection, or of controlling the carburetor's throttle electronically somehow. The mechanical linkage probably makes more sense, though I imagine it might take a bit of creativity to come up with something that can easily be switched on the fly from the cabin. Your description of various hybrid modes lines up with what I had in mind, though, eventually, I'd like to figure out a good way to have the electric motors ease off under cruising conditions. But for a first round, that can be as simple as flipping the switch to turn off the EV system once I'm on the highway, and remembering to flip the switch back on when I get off. It won't matter for your car, but in a vehicle with power steering, power brakes, air conditioning, etc. one could also leave the ICE idling in EV mode (since the throttle linkage is disconnected). This way, the ICE powers all the accessories, using a minimal amount of gasoline, while you EV motor does all the driving. Right now, the car doesn't have power anything. I don't anticipate adding any power assist options, but I likely will add air conditioning. I *had* thought that I might be able to get away without a DC/DC converter as you suggest...but I'm also thinking that, considering I'm in the middle of Arizona, it'd probably be a good idea to add active cooling for the batteries whenever the car is plugged in or on the road. And if I do that, it probably also makes sense to get an air conditioner that runs off the 12V system so it, too, can run when the car is plugged it, both to save the interior and my own bum when I get in. Again, I've got an embarrassing surplus of PV capacity, so I don't mind being wasteful of electricity like that. It only gets complicated if you want a system that automatically starts and stops the ICE, and switches between modes based on some criteria. That, indeed, is the eventual goal...but I'm now realizing that I can take that part of the process as incrementally as I feel like. Once I can operate the two systems independently, the worst of it all is done. Maybe it'll take a year or more after that point to get to that sort of an idiot-proof mode, but that's fine. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140801/f1a5233b/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Ben, A Ghia EV using lithium batteries and some aero, drag reduction can go 240 miles or so on a Leaf battery pack. Pervious ones done this way used about 100wthrs/mile on lead batteries. Or one of the many kitcars, at least the more aero ones. Dead ICE ones can be had cheap and easily converted. You are on the right path as EV's cost what they weigh. A much lighter aero car takes a much smaller battery pack, motor, controller, etc for the same performance. Or 100 mile battery range and an 8kw range extender I'm doing one that only weighs 45lbs gives unlimited range on gasoline, E-85, Methanol, etc using hot-rodded racing go cart motors readily available for those fuels. Jerry Dycus On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:27 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. I still haven't bought the car. If I'm going to do a pure BEV conversion, this wouldn't be the car I'd do it with; instead, I'd get a Ghia or the like. But a pure BEV car has the range problem, which is exacerbated in my case by the spread-out nature of the Phoenix metro area plus our summer heat...a car with a nominal 100 mile range is going to be stressful to drive somewhere 30 miles away on a typical day like today with a 110F forecasted high. Going somewhere 30 miles away and deciding on the fly to make a stop another 10 miles out of the way on the way home isn't going to happen. The idea with the Mustang is to get something not unlike the Volt. A couple dozen pure electric miles would cover most of my driving, and a plugin hybrid range aggressive on the electric (presumably resulting in fuel economy rivaling that of an econobox when in that mode) would cover everything else except for trips -- plus it should be great for trips. And it should wind up having all sorts of performance. So...if this car, yes, the ICE stays; if the ICE goes, not this car. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140726/fa809afe/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/6f797dff/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
We were hiking in England last week, and I saw a 2004 Smart Roadster. Beautiful car. Gets close to 50 mpg. I thought, when I get home, that's going to be my next conversion. But my dreams were dashed: the car isn't legal for US streets. I even contacted some Registered Importers and the DOT itself, but alas it's a no-go. I saw a couple people in Europe who have done them. So if anyone on the list from Great Britain, Europe, Australia or Mexico ever converts one, at least I could salivate over yours. Bill -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of jerry freedomev via EV Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 11:03 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? Ben, A Ghia EV using lithium batteries and some aero, drag reduction can go 240 miles or so on a Leaf battery pack. Pervious ones done this way used about 100wthrs/mile on lead batteries. Or one of the many kitcars, at least the more aero ones. Dead ICE ones can be had cheap and easily converted. You are on the right path as EV's cost what they weigh. A much lighter aero car takes a much smaller battery pack, motor, controller, etc for the same performance. Or 100 mile battery range and an 8kw range extender I'm doing one that only weighs 45lbs gives unlimited range on gasoline, E-85, Methanol, etc using hot-rodded racing go cart motors readily available for those fuels. Jerry Dycus On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:27 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. I still haven't bought the car. If I'm going to do a pure BEV conversion, this wouldn't be the car I'd do it with; instead, I'd get a Ghia or the like. But a pure BEV car has the range problem, which is exacerbated in my case by the spread-out nature of the Phoenix metro area plus our summer heat...a car with a nominal 100 mile range is going to be stressful to drive somewhere 30 miles away on a typical day like today with a 110F forecasted high. Going somewhere 30 miles away and deciding on the fly to make a stop another 10 miles out of the way on the way home isn't going to happen. The idea with the Mustang is to get something not unlike the Volt. A couple dozen pure electric miles would cover most of my driving, and a plugin hybrid range aggressive on the electric (presumably resulting in fuel economy rivaling that of an econobox when in that mode) would cover everything else except for trips -- plus it should be great for trips. And it should wind up having all sorts of performance. So...if this car, yes, the ICE stays; if the ICE goes, not this car. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140726/fa809afe /attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/6f797dff /attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic car...and, had fate played out differently, that would have been the route I'd have gone. But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday. Turns out it's not merely a 1964 1/2 Mustang, but that it came off the assembly line a mere nine days (seven business days) after the very first Mustang ever, on March 18, 1964. So...I expect the hybrid conversion to be challenging, and I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles of that hypothetical Ghia. But...well, as much fun as a BEV Ghia would unquestionably be, I'm thinking a second-week-of-production Mustang hybrid is going to be at least as much fun, if not more. And I'll still be driving the significant majority of my miles from solar power off the roof. Now, I just have to figure out how to put it all together...but I've got time for that. The car needs a bit of engine and body work, first. Not much, but enough to give me plenty of time to do lots more research. b On Jul 31, 2014, at 10:03 AM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben, A Ghia EV using lithium batteries and some aero, drag reduction can go 240 miles or so on a Leaf battery pack. Pervious ones done this way used about 100wthrs/mile on lead batteries. Or one of the many kitcars, at least the more aero ones. Dead ICE ones can be had cheap and easily converted. You are on the right path as EV's cost what they weigh. A much lighter aero car takes a much smaller battery pack, motor, controller, etc for the same performance. Or 100 mile battery range and an 8kw range extender I'm doing one that only weighs 45lbs gives unlimited range on gasoline, E-85, Methanol, etc using hot-rodded racing go cart motors readily available for those fuels. Jerry Dycus On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:27 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jul 26, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. I still haven't bought the car. If I'm going to do a pure BEV conversion, this wouldn't be the car I'd do it with; instead, I'd get a Ghia or the like. But a pure BEV car has the range problem, which is exacerbated in my case by the spread-out nature of the Phoenix metro area plus our summer heat...a car with a nominal 100 mile range is going to be stressful to drive somewhere 30 miles away on a typical day like today with a 110F forecasted high. Going somewhere 30 miles away and deciding on the fly to make a stop another 10 miles out of the way on the way home isn't going to happen. The idea with the Mustang is to get something not unlike the Volt. A couple dozen pure electric miles would cover most of my driving, and a plugin hybrid range aggressive on the electric (presumably resulting in fuel economy rivaling that of an econobox when in that mode) would cover everything else except for trips -- plus it should be great for trips. And it should wind up having all sorts of performance. So...if this car, yes, the ICE stays; if the ICE goes, not this car. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140726/fa809afe/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/6f797dff/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140731/90670521/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Ben Goren via EV wrote: Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic car... The Ghia happened to have several attractive attributes for an EV. It was very light, it was reasonable aerodynamics, and enough room for batteries. John Bryan's Ghia was one example. He carefully measured the efficiency of his Ghia, and got it under 100 watthours/mile. That's good enough for a 100-mile range even on lead-acid batteries. The only cars that do better are things like James Worden's Sunrise, which was built as an EV from the ground up, and got as low as 60 watthours per mile. But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday. The Mustang is still a pretty good candidate. It's still a small light car, and the aerodynamics aren't too terrible. Plus, it's a classic car that many can appreciate! I believe John Wayland converted one for someone. He's a genius at building beautiful high-performance conversions -- have you contacted him for details? I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles A low range expectation makes your job a lot easier. I've been reading this thread while on vacation, and you have received a lot of great advice. It must be confusing; but it's better to have too many choices rather than too few, though it may not seem that way at the time. :-) I'm interested as well, as I have a small Chevy pickup and have been thinking about exactly the same sort of conversion. I don't know much about what Netgain was doing in their solution. If you have contact information on it, let me know! Given their other products, I'm sure it was a DC brushed motor. This would be a cheaper approach, and would deliver far more torque for its size than AC. If their motor had interpoles or a sepex field, it could also have done regen as easily as an AC motor. I don't think your hybrid control problems will be nearly as difficult as you think. The Mustang just has a carburetor and simple throttle linkage. Add the EV controller's potbox to the accelerator linkage. Then add some kind of mechanical link that disconnects the throttle linkage from the carburetor when you switch to EV mode (so you're not pumping the gas and flooding the engine when it's not running). Then, provide a manual switch to select: - ICE mode: Carburetor linkage connected, EV controller off. - EV mode: Carburetor linkage disconnected, EV controller on. Shift to neutral so you're not forcing the ICE to rotate. - Hybrid: Bot enable at once. In hybrid mode, both the ICE and EV motor will naturally provide an amount of torque controlled by the accelerator pedal. They won't fight each other; their torques will just add. If you're in ICE mode and driving at some particular speed and accelerator pedal position and turn on hybrid mode, the EV motor will add torque, and you will speed up. But your natural response to lift the gas pedal slightly will correct for it. If the EV motor/controller has regen, you will get it just by letting up the gas pedal. You could also shift the transmission to neutral, so as much as possible of your braking is done by the EV motor. It won't matter for your car, but in a vehicle with power steering, power brakes, air conditioning, etc. one could also leave the ICE idling in EV mode (since the throttle linkage is disconnected). This way, the ICE powers all the accessories, using a minimal amount of gasoline, while you EV motor does all the driving. Thus, you can drive it manually with only a little finesse. It only gets complicated if you want a system that automatically starts and stops the ICE, and switches between modes based on some criteria. -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
That Mustang is probably worth more than a new electric car in some parts of the world. Sell it and buy a car that would make a better electric with the money? http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/auction-748754922.htm -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV Sent: Friday, 1 August 2014 8:47 a.m. To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? Ben Goren via EV wrote: Thanks, Jerry. A 200+ mile BEV Ghia certainly sounds like a fantastic car... The Ghia happened to have several attractive attributes for an EV. It was very light, it was reasonable aerodynamics, and enough room for batteries. John Bryan's Ghia was one example. He carefully measured the efficiency of his Ghia, and got it under 100 watthours/mile. That's good enough for a 100-mile range even on lead-acid batteries. The only cars that do better are things like James Worden's Sunrise, which was built as an EV from the ground up, and got as low as 60 watthours per mile. But I went ahead and bought the Mustang the day before yesterday. The Mustang is still a pretty good candidate. It's still a small light car, and the aerodynamics aren't too terrible. Plus, it's a classic car that many can appreciate! I believe John Wayland converted one for someone. He's a genius at building beautiful high-performance conversions -- have you contacted him for details? I'm expecting not much more than a tenth the all-electric miles A low range expectation makes your job a lot easier. I've been reading this thread while on vacation, and you have received a lot of great advice. It must be confusing; but it's better to have too many choices rather than too few, though it may not seem that way at the time. :-) I'm interested as well, as I have a small Chevy pickup and have been thinking about exactly the same sort of conversion. I don't know much about what Netgain was doing in their solution. If you have contact information on it, let me know! Given their other products, I'm sure it was a DC brushed motor. This would be a cheaper approach, and would deliver far more torque for its size than AC. If their motor had interpoles or a sepex field, it could also have done regen as easily as an AC motor. I don't think your hybrid control problems will be nearly as difficult as you think. The Mustang just has a carburetor and simple throttle linkage. Add the EV controller's potbox to the accelerator linkage. Then add some kind of mechanical link that disconnects the throttle linkage from the carburetor when you switch to EV mode (so you're not pumping the gas and flooding the engine when it's not running). Then, provide a manual switch to select: - ICE mode: Carburetor linkage connected, EV controller off. - EV mode: Carburetor linkage disconnected, EV controller on. Shift to neutral so you're not forcing the ICE to rotate. - Hybrid: Bot enable at once. In hybrid mode, both the ICE and EV motor will naturally provide an amount of torque controlled by the accelerator pedal. They won't fight each other; their torques will just add. If you're in ICE mode and driving at some particular speed and accelerator pedal position and turn on hybrid mode, the EV motor will add torque, and you will speed up. But your natural response to lift the gas pedal slightly will correct for it. If the EV motor/controller has regen, you will get it just by letting up the gas pedal. You could also shift the transmission to neutral, so as much as possible of your braking is done by the EV motor. It won't matter for your car, but in a vehicle with power steering, power brakes, air conditioning, etc. one could also leave the ICE idling in EV mode (since the throttle linkage is disconnected). This way, the ICE powers all the accessories, using a minimal amount of gasoline, while you EV motor does all the driving. Thus, you can drive it manually with only a little finesse. It only gets complicated if you want a system that automatically starts and stops the ICE, and switches between modes based on some criteria. -- The definition of research: Shoot the arrow first, and paint the target around where it lands. -- David Van Baak -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On Jul 24, 2014, at 8:31 PM, Ben Apollonio e...@bapollo.com wrote: For your hybrid application, I'd go with the AC. One word: regen -- without it to recharge the battery, hybrid mode is of little benefit; better to just disengage the motor altogether. I've been leaning towards AC since the beginning. I figure the biggest benefit from the electric motor will be with acceleration; if the electric motor does all that heavy lifting and then lets the V8 deal with cruising, that alone should be substantial. Along those lines, even if braking doesn't recover enough via regen to keep the batteries from emptying, an intelligent controller could apply minimal regen drag while cruising to provide just enough charge for accelerating from the next stop light -- and, again, only when the batteries are close to empty. And, with a *really* intelligent controller, I could punch in my expected trip distance, and it could adjust how much electric assist to give accordingly -- lots for shorter trips, less for longer ones. However, running slow comes at the expense of the torque multiplication in your gearing; ultimately, you'll be running the motor hot in a low-efficiency region. That's what I'm gathering is the problem with direct drive -- not that the motors don't have enough power, but that they're not electromechanically efficient at low RPMs, and that translates into shorter range and more heat. Or, you *can* do direct drive with most any motor, but it's going to suck battery charge and lessen the motor's lifespan. And, conversely, dual motors work better in such situations because the load and head is spread between the two. Does efficiency go back up with dual motors, or is it just a matter of preventing overheating? As for the hybrid mode, I would strongly encourage you to take it incrementally, because the controls will be a challenge and you don't want to be kept off the road while you figure it out. I think...that's an excellent suggestion. And the first hybrid mode can even be as simple as just turning on both systems at the same time. The vacuum sounds like a good idea, but my gut says you'll need inputs from the throttle too. You'll almost certainly require a control processor (possibly Arduino, possibly more powerful). Collin has pointed me to GEVCU, an Arduino-based open source vehicle control project. I'm thinking the second hybrid mode is the same as above, but with GEVCU tapped into the lines and monitoring everything. Step three is to show what GEVCU thinks it would do with the throttle, and step four to actually wire it in so it can do its thing. Since you're using the existing engine instead of an undersized one that relies on the electric boost, and since your motor is fixed on the driveshaft (meaning you can't regen without also burning energy in compression braking), I think the fuel efficiency gains will be limited. I would say you should think of it more like a Honda Civic hybrid than like a Chevy Volt/Prius, except it will have the ability to fully disengage the engine for EV-only drive. Actually, because of that fully electric mode, I'm expecting actual fuel economy to be superlative. The main battery options left on the table are 144V / 10 Ah / 10C, which perfectly match the AC-51's specs with a 14.4 kWh capacity. The back-of-the-envelope suggests that that should be in the range of 30 miles or so, which is going to cover most of my driving. And if I can get it so that the controller uses the whole battery over longer hybrid-mode trips, then, for example, a 60-mile trip would get at least twice the mileage with the system as without -- presumably, more than twice, because the electric motor would be doing its thing at times the V8 would otherwise be at its least efficient. All-day trips wouldn't see monumental efficiency gains, but I don't do very many of those. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140728/1229f841/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Ben, I hate to say it but two year old Volts are available for $14k to your project has been Trumped with the economy of used cars and you cannot beat the price with a home built hybrid ... Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Jul 24, 2014, at 8:31 PM, Ben Apollonio e...@bapollo.com wrote: For your hybrid application, I'd go with the AC. One word: regen -- without it to recharge the battery, hybrid mode is of little benefit; better to just disengage the motor altogether. I've been leaning towards AC since the beginning. I figure the biggest benefit from the electric motor will be with acceleration; if the electric motor does all that heavy lifting and then lets the V8 deal with cruising, that alone should be substantial. Along those lines, even if braking doesn't recover enough via regen to keep the batteries from emptying, an intelligent controller could apply minimal regen drag while cruising to provide just enough charge for accelerating from the next stop light -- and, again, only when the batteries are close to empty. And, with a *really* intelligent controller, I could punch in my expected trip distance, and it could adjust how much electric assist to give accordingly -- lots for shorter trips, less for longer ones. However, running slow comes at the expense of the torque multiplication in your gearing; ultimately, you'll be running the motor hot in a low-efficiency region. That's what I'm gathering is the problem with direct drive -- not that the motors don't have enough power, but that they're not electromechanically efficient at low RPMs, and that translates into shorter range and more heat. Or, you *can* do direct drive with most any motor, but it's going to suck battery charge and lessen the motor's lifespan. And, conversely, dual motors work better in such situations because the load and head is spread between the two. Does efficiency go back up with dual motors, or is it just a matter of preventing overheating? As for the hybrid mode, I would strongly encourage you to take it incrementally, because the controls will be a challenge and you don't want to be kept off the road while you figure it out. I think...that's an excellent suggestion. And the first hybrid mode can even be as simple as just turning on both systems at the same time. The vacuum sounds like a good idea, but my gut says you'll need inputs from the throttle too. You'll almost certainly require a control processor (possibly Arduino, possibly more powerful). Collin has pointed me to GEVCU, an Arduino-based open source vehicle control project. I'm thinking the second hybrid mode is the same as above, but with GEVCU tapped into the lines and monitoring everything. Step three is to show what GEVCU thinks it would do with the throttle, and step four to actually wire it in so it can do its thing. Since you're using the existing engine instead of an undersized one that relies on the electric boost, and since your motor is fixed on the driveshaft (meaning you can't regen without also burning energy in compression braking), I think the fuel efficiency gains will be limited. I would say you should think of it more like a Honda Civic hybrid than like a Chevy Volt/Prius, except it will have the ability to fully disengage the engine for EV-only drive. Actually, because of that fully electric mode, I'm expecting actual fuel economy to be superlative. The main battery options left on the table are 144V / 10 Ah / 10C, which perfectly match the AC-51's specs with a 14.4 kWh capacity. The back-of-the-envelope suggests that that should be in the range of 30 miles or so, which is going to cover most of my driving. And if I can get it so that the controller uses the whole battery over longer hybrid-mode trips, then, for example, a 60-mile trip would get at least twice the mileage with the system as without -- presumably, more than twice, because the electric motor would be doing its thing at times the V8 would otherwise be at its least efficient. All-day trips wouldn't see monumental efficiency gains, but I don't do very many of those. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140728/1229f841/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE:
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Mechanically, that's an awesome idea -- perfect, even. But...thinking it through a bit further, there's a pretty substantial geometric problem: the V8 and the differential are in line with each other and can't be re-positioned...and the side of the transfer case with the low gearing is in that same line -- connecting the front axle output to the transmission would shift everything out of line. 4x4 transfer cases are also optimized for low speed and high torque, but this setup would have to contend with 5000 RPM on the freeway. It's still something to keep in mind, though, but using an AWD sports car's transfer case as a way to move the electric motor to the engine compartment instead of in place of the driveshaft. If there's room, and if the geometry works out, and if I could find a suitable reduction gearset to put between the motor and the transfer case, it may well be a good option. Thanks! b On Jul 25, 2014, at 9:20 PM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The best scheme I have heard was mentioned a week ago. Use a 4X4 transfer case it has two outputs and one input. Connect it up as follows. V8 and its transmission to the Front axle drive shaft connection. The electric motor(s) to the connection usually used by the transmission for the V8. Use the output usually for the rear drive to the rear axle drive shaft. the transaxle gives a 2::1 ratio for the electric motor(s) that give a total ratio of ~ 6::1 for the electric motor(s), but the front and rear drive shafts have a 1::1 ratio all the time and the 2::1 ratio for the electrics can be shifted to 1::1 for highway driving. the V8 allways has the stock 3::1 ratio in the differential... It really is an Elegant solution. I would ask at the local custom 4X4 shop Which make and model would be best and to help you implement it! Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For your hybrid application, I'd go with the AC. One word: regen -- without it to recharge the battery, hybrid mode is of little benefit; better to just disengage the motor altogether. I get decent performance out of my Porsche 914 with a single 9 DC motor in 3rd gear (although it tops out around 65MPH). It even starts and drives OK in 4th, but the clutch begins to slip. The lower gear ratio Netgain suggests will keep motor speed down, making it easier to to push current when the engine is spinning the crankshaft at higher speeds. However, running slow comes at the expense of the torque multiplication in your gearing; ultimately, you'll be running the motor hot in a low-efficiency region. My Porsche performs as it does because I have a 170V pack and a 1000A Zilla, but each of those drives up the cost complexity. At lower voltage, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to have any power at speed, and at lower currents, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to provide starting torque. And when I actually use 2nd-4th gear, it's a lot more fun/powerful throughout. The AC has a better torque profile for a fixed (albeit higher) gear ratio. However, given the rating of the motors, you'll probably need two AC-51's to get decent performance unless they're upstream of the transmission. As for the hybrid mode, I would strongly encourage you to take it incrementally, because the controls will be a challenge and you don't want to be kept off the road while you figure it out. The vacuum sounds like a good idea, but my gut says you'll need inputs from the throttle too. You'll almost certainly require a control processor (possibly Arduino, possibly more powerful). Step 1, IMO, is to make the car work with an EV mode and with an engine-only mode where the electric motor just spins freely. Once you have that working, you can tinker with hybrid control schemes all day long. Frankly, I think it will be a game of diminishing returns. Since you're using the existing engine instead of an undersized one that relies on the electric boost, and since your motor is fixed on the driveshaft (meaning you can't regen without also burning energy in compression braking), I think the fuel efficiency gains will be limited. I would say you should think of it more like a Honda Civic hybrid than like a Chevy Volt/Prius, except it will have the ability to fully disengage the engine for EV-only drive. -Ben On Jul 23, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I know the question of AC and DC motors is a controversial one, and
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. You'd have the extra space. Maybe, after a year or so, you could add more cells and get 200 miles range. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Dennis Miles dmiles33...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 26-Jul-14 6:58:27 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC? Mechanically, that's an awesome idea -- perfect, even. But...thinking it through a bit further, there's a pretty substantial geometric problem: the V8 and the differential are in line with each other and can't be re-positioned...and the side of the transfer case with the low gearing is in that same line -- connecting the front axle output to the transmission would shift everything out of line. 4x4 transfer cases are also optimized for low speed and high torque, but this setup would have to contend with 5000 RPM on the freeway. It's still something to keep in mind, though, but using an AWD sports car's transfer case as a way to move the electric motor to the engine compartment instead of in place of the driveshaft. If there's room, and if the geometry works out, and if I could find a suitable reduction gearset to put between the motor and the transfer case, it may well be a good option. Thanks! b On Jul 25, 2014, at 9:20 PM, Dennis Miles via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The best scheme I have heard was mentioned a week ago. Use a 4X4 transfer case it has two outputs and one input. Connect it up as follows. V8 and its transmission to the Front axle drive shaft connection. The electric motor(s) to the connection usually used by the transmission for the V8. Use the output usually for the rear drive to the rear axle drive shaft. the transaxle gives a 2::1 ratio for the electric motor(s) that give a total ratio of ~ 6::1 for the electric motor(s), but the front and rear drive shafts have a 1::1 ratio all the time and the 2::1 ratio for the electrics can be shifted to 1::1 for highway driving. the V8 allways has the stock 3::1 ratio in the differential... It really is an Elegant solution. I would ask at the local custom 4X4 shop Which make and model would be best and to help you implement it! Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For your hybrid application, I'd go with the AC. One word: regen -- without it to recharge the battery, hybrid mode is of little benefit; better to just disengage the motor altogether. I get decent performance out of my Porsche 914 with a single 9 DC motor in 3rd gear (although it tops out around 65MPH). It even starts and drives OK in 4th, but the clutch begins to slip. The lower gear ratio Netgain suggests will keep motor speed down, making it easier to to push current when the engine is spinning the crankshaft at higher speeds. However, running slow comes at the expense of the torque multiplication in your gearing; ultimately, you'll be running the motor hot in a low-efficiency region. My Porsche performs as it does because I have a 170V pack and a 1000A Zilla, but each of those drives up the cost complexity. At lower voltage, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to have any power at speed, and at lower currents, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to provide starting torque. And when I actually use 2nd-4th gear, it's a lot more fun/powerful throughout. The AC has a better torque profile for a fixed (albeit higher) gear ratio. However, given the rating of the motors, you'll probably need two AC-51's to get decent performance unless they're upstream of the transmission. As for the hybrid mode, I would strongly encourage you to take it incrementally, because the controls will be a challenge and you don't want to be kept off the road while you figure it out. The vacuum sounds like a good idea, but my gut says you'll need inputs from the throttle too. You'll almost certainly require a control processor (possibly Arduino, possibly more powerful). Step 1, IMO, is to make the car work with an EV mode and with an engine-only mode where the electric motor just spins freely. Once you have that working, you can tinker with hybrid control schemes all day long. Frankly, I think it will be a game of diminishing returns. Since you're using the existing
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
On Jul 26, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Just one more time, Ben. Do you really need to keep the ICE? Especially with an old car like that - no computer, nothing electronic what so ever, think how easy and simple your configuration would be if electric only. I still haven't bought the car. If I'm going to do a pure BEV conversion, this wouldn't be the car I'd do it with; instead, I'd get a Ghia or the like. But a pure BEV car has the range problem, which is exacerbated in my case by the spread-out nature of the Phoenix metro area plus our summer heat...a car with a nominal 100 mile range is going to be stressful to drive somewhere 30 miles away on a typical day like today with a 110F forecasted high. Going somewhere 30 miles away and deciding on the fly to make a stop another 10 miles out of the way on the way home isn't going to happen. The idea with the Mustang is to get something not unlike the Volt. A couple dozen pure electric miles would cover most of my driving, and a plugin hybrid range aggressive on the electric (presumably resulting in fuel economy rivaling that of an econobox when in that mode) would cover everything else except for trips -- plus it should be great for trips. And it should wind up having all sorts of performance. So...if this car, yes, the ICE stays; if the ICE goes, not this car. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140726/fa809afe/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
The best scheme I have heard was mentioned a week ago. Use a 4X4 transfer case it has two outputs and one input. Connect it up as follows. V8 and its transmission to the Front axle drive shaft connection. The electric motor(s) to the connection usually used by the transmission for the V8. Use the output usually for the rear drive to the rear axle drive shaft. the transaxle gives a 2::1 ratio for the electric motor(s) that give a total ratio of ~ 6::1 for the electric motor(s), but the front and rear drive shafts have a 1::1 ratio all the time and the 2::1 ratio for the electrics can be shifted to 1::1 for highway driving. the V8 allways has the stock 3::1 ratio in the differential... It really is an Elegant solution. I would ask at the local custom 4X4 shop Which make and model would be best and to help you implement it! Dennis Lee Miles (*evprofes...@evprofessor.com evprofes...@evprofessor.com)* * Founder:**EV Tech. Institute Inc.* *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913 (12 noon to 12 midnight Eastern US Time)* *Educating yourself, does not mean you were **stupid; it means, you are intelligent enough, **to know, that there is plenty left to learn!* * You Tube Video link: http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss http://youtu.be/T-FVjMRVLss * On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 11:31 PM, Ben Apollonio via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For your hybrid application, I'd go with the AC. One word: regen -- without it to recharge the battery, hybrid mode is of little benefit; better to just disengage the motor altogether. I get decent performance out of my Porsche 914 with a single 9 DC motor in 3rd gear (although it tops out around 65MPH). It even starts and drives OK in 4th, but the clutch begins to slip. The lower gear ratio Netgain suggests will keep motor speed down, making it easier to to push current when the engine is spinning the crankshaft at higher speeds. However, running slow comes at the expense of the torque multiplication in your gearing; ultimately, you'll be running the motor hot in a low-efficiency region. My Porsche performs as it does because I have a 170V pack and a 1000A Zilla, but each of those drives up the cost complexity. At lower voltage, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to have any power at speed, and at lower currents, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to provide starting torque. And when I actually use 2nd-4th gear, it's a lot more fun/powerful throughout. The AC has a better torque profile for a fixed (albeit higher) gear ratio. However, given the rating of the motors, you'll probably need two AC-51's to get decent performance unless they're upstream of the transmission. As for the hybrid mode, I would strongly encourage you to take it incrementally, because the controls will be a challenge and you don't want to be kept off the road while you figure it out. The vacuum sounds like a good idea, but my gut says you'll need inputs from the throttle too. You'll almost certainly require a control processor (possibly Arduino, possibly more powerful). Step 1, IMO, is to make the car work with an EV mode and with an engine-only mode where the electric motor just spins freely. Once you have that working, you can tinker with hybrid control schemes all day long. Frankly, I think it will be a game of diminishing returns. Since you're using the existing engine instead of an undersized one that relies on the electric boost, and since your motor is fixed on the driveshaft (meaning you can't regen without also burning energy in compression braking), I think the fuel efficiency gains will be limited. I would say you should think of it more like a Honda Civic hybrid than like a Chevy Volt/Prius, except it will have the ability to fully disengage the engine for EV-only drive. -Ben On Jul 23, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I know the question of AC and DC motors is a controversial one, and probably done to death. But if all y'all might humor me, I'd appreciate a bit of guidance on this. To recap, I have a chance to buy a 1964 1/2 Mustang in good shape for not much money. The goal is to get something not unlike the driving experience of a Volt, with an all-electric range of roughly a couple dozen miles and a traditional Prius-style hybrid range limited only by the gas tank. The thought is to replace most or all of the driveshaft with one or more electric motors. I've now spoken with somebody at both HPEVS and Netgain. The guy at HPEVS wasn't exactly enthusiastic about the plan, but thinks it can be done. He recommends a rear differential ratio in the 6:1 range to make an AC-51 not be miserable. That would require a new 9 rear end for the car and a custom transmission geared appropriately taller to keep the combustion engine happy. He doesn't know much about people doing direct drive or hybrid stuff with HPEVS motors. The guy at Netgain was most encouraging, and has done something
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid Mustang: AC or DC?
For your hybrid application, I'd go with the AC. One word: regen -- without it to recharge the battery, hybrid mode is of little benefit; better to just disengage the motor altogether. I get decent performance out of my Porsche 914 with a single 9 DC motor in 3rd gear (although it tops out around 65MPH). It even starts and drives OK in 4th, but the clutch begins to slip. The lower gear ratio Netgain suggests will keep motor speed down, making it easier to to push current when the engine is spinning the crankshaft at higher speeds. However, running slow comes at the expense of the torque multiplication in your gearing; ultimately, you'll be running the motor hot in a low-efficiency region. My Porsche performs as it does because I have a 170V pack and a 1000A Zilla, but each of those drives up the cost complexity. At lower voltage, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to have any power at speed, and at lower currents, I'd be much more dependent on the gearing to provide starting torque. And when I actually use 2nd-4th gear, it's a lot more fun/powerful throughout. The AC has a better torque profile for a fixed (albeit higher) gear ratio. However, given the rating of the motors, you'll probably need two AC-51's to get decent performance unless they're upstream of the transmission. As for the hybrid mode, I would strongly encourage you to take it incrementally, because the controls will be a challenge and you don't want to be kept off the road while you figure it out. The vacuum sounds like a good idea, but my gut says you'll need inputs from the throttle too. You'll almost certainly require a control processor (possibly Arduino, possibly more powerful). Step 1, IMO, is to make the car work with an EV mode and with an engine-only mode where the electric motor just spins freely. Once you have that working, you can tinker with hybrid control schemes all day long. Frankly, I think it will be a game of diminishing returns. Since you're using the existing engine instead of an undersized one that relies on the electric boost, and since your motor is fixed on the driveshaft (meaning you can't regen without also burning energy in compression braking), I think the fuel efficiency gains will be limited. I would say you should think of it more like a Honda Civic hybrid than like a Chevy Volt/Prius, except it will have the ability to fully disengage the engine for EV-only drive. -Ben On Jul 23, 2014, at 5:02 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I know the question of AC and DC motors is a controversial one, and probably done to death. But if all y'all might humor me, I'd appreciate a bit of guidance on this. To recap, I have a chance to buy a 1964 1/2 Mustang in good shape for not much money. The goal is to get something not unlike the driving experience of a Volt, with an all-electric range of roughly a couple dozen miles and a traditional Prius-style hybrid range limited only by the gas tank. The thought is to replace most or all of the driveshaft with one or more electric motors. I've now spoken with somebody at both HPEVS and Netgain. The guy at HPEVS wasn't exactly enthusiastic about the plan, but thinks it can be done. He recommends a rear differential ratio in the 6:1 range to make an AC-51 not be miserable. That would require a new 9 rear end for the car and a custom transmission geared appropriately taller to keep the combustion engine happy. He doesn't know much about people doing direct drive or hybrid stuff with HPEVS motors. The guy at Netgain was most encouraging, and has done something nearly identical to what I have in mind. He didn't recommend any gearing changes; indeed, he suggested that a higher ratio (3:1 or higher) might be better than stock, instead of the other way 'round. He had many very helpful suggestions, such as ways to couple two motors or to get the electric motor(s) to supply most of the power at low speeds and little power at high speeds, thereby maximizing overall gasoline economy. It seems the beaten path for this type of project is therefore a Netgain DC motor...but I still like the regen capabilities of the AC motors and the reduced maintenance. I'm aware that only limited efficiency gains are available with regen, but I have a secondary concern. When running in hybrid mode, once the batteries get depleted, the car would become a pure-gas vehicle. It'd be nice to instead use the combustion engine to just barely recharge the batteries enough to still provide acceleration assist -- the same way the Prius and the Volt do things. With regen, that should be straightforward. Without, I'm left thinking of kludges such as using the combustion engine's 12 volt system to trickle-charge the electric motor's batteries, and I'm not so sure that's even safe, let alone possible. However, as a practical matter, this might not actually be a concern if a full
