Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:43 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/24/2015 1:23 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 10:15 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2015 8:16 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Friday, January 23, 2015, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote Do we know that? Do we know that such a digit exists? It follows from the axioms that there is a certain definite digit. They show you how to generate terms in a sequence and if you add up enough of them you'd get the the 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal digit of pi; but it assumes that there is no barrier that makes doing that impossible and states that assumption with 3 little dots (...). I don't know for certain but those 3 little dots *might* be saying something that is logical nonsense, I do know for certain that the first mathematicians who used those 3 little dots knew nothing about quantum mechanics or the computational limit of the universe, and that gives me pause. What I explained is that if you think there is a largest number *that* is what definitely leads to logical nonsense. Say there is a largest number N, such that N+1 is not a bigger number, but is still N. That means N+0 = N+1. Now subtract N from both sides. Why should subtraction of the biggest number not obey special rules, e.g. Subtracting N from any normal number yields -N. Subtracting N from any Big number yields zero. I still don't know if that would escape the problems. Let's say M is the number right before the biggest number (or any Big numbers). Then using your rules you find that: M - (M+1) = 0 --- or is it -N? but (M - M) + 1 = 1 It might be possible to come up with axioms that allow you to have a biggest number that operates in a consistent way, but I think it would be very difficult, and probably not very useful. It may be useful in computer science, c.f. http://www.impan.pl/~kz/files/MKKZ_ArFM.pdf Nor do I see the point of hobbling a theory (supposedly about the infinite natural numbers) by declaring some aspects of that theory to be strictly off limits and beyond the possibility of discussion. I'm not proposing that anything is off limits. I'm proposing that there are different axiomatic systems which may equally correspond with our finite observations, How can it be said that any physical observation corresponds with entities that exist within an axiomatic system? Do you see the goal of physics being to provide mathematicians with a correct axiomatic system? therefore it is not justified to pick one of them and claim that it is empirically proven. Axiomatic systems may contradict one another and that is why X provable in A1 only implies X true relative to A1 and not exists X. Plato was led to suppose that perfect forms existed because in his day it seemed there was only one possible mathematics which was something like arithmetic plus Euclid. In our day we know that no axiomatic system can be perfect, and accordingly that axiomatic systems can at best approach/approximate rather than prescribe/define truth. In that way they're not much different from physical theories we develop about the objective physical universe: axiomatic systems are theories about objective mathematical objects. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:36 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: They show you how to generate terms in a sequence and if you add up enough of them you'd get the the 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal digit of pi; but it assumes that there is no barrier that makes doing that impossible and states that assumption with 3 little dots (...). I don't know for certain but those 3 little dots *might* be saying something that is logical nonsense, I do know for certain that the first mathematicians who used those 3 little dots knew nothing about quantum mechanics or the computational limit of the universe, and that gives me pause. What I explained is that if you think there is a largest number *that* is what definitely leads to logical nonsense. Say there is a largest number N, such that N+1 is [...] If physics is more fundamental than mathematics (and it *might* be) and if physicists are right about there being a limit on the number of calculations that can be performed in the universe and if N is the largest integer that can be counted in the universe then N +1 is as logically ridiculous as N divided by zero. Just because something is not physically istantiated or observed does not make it logically ridiculous. Are the unobserved parts of the Mandelbrot set logically ridiculous? What if they are observed in other branches of the wave function? What if there is another hubble volume in the eternal inflation which has slightly different laws/initial conditions which does allow that N+1 to be computed? What if the big bang/big crunch is cyclical, and N+1 was computed in a previous cycle prior to this one? What does an arrangement of atoms in a certain way that some observer construes as representing N+1 have to do with the existence of N? If mathematics is a language then it needs something to talk about, and like any language you can write fiction or nonfiction. If it's just a language then mathematics can talk about the physical world (non-fiction) but it can also be used to write fiction. So some or the more esoteric and abstract areas of mathematics, and perhaps even something as mundane as the Real Numbers, *might* be rather like a mathematical version of a Harry Potter novel. No, fiction like Harry Potter doesn't kick back. If you can simply make up the largest Mersenne prime then do so, Prove to me that physics is more fundamental than mathematics (right now I don't know if it is or not) and then give me a computer with the computational power of the entire universe and then I will be happy to tell you exactly what the largest Mersenne prime is. (To clarify, I meant to say the next largest rather than the largest. Currently 48 are known, if you discover another one you can collect $100,000. (but maybe it's already been claimed.. https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/10/14-0 )) So you seem to accept mathematics is more than just a language. It is a field that concerns objects which we can study, which can surprise us, and can exert an influence in our universe and others when we discover and talk about the properties of those objects of study. The number C is so large it can't be factored in the life of the universe. Do you believe A and B have definite values despite our inability to compute them? If mathematics is just a language and if factoring that composite number would exceed the computational capacity of the entire universe and if you really can destroy information (and nearly all physicists think that you can not) then yes, A and B would no longer have definite values; I mean if you destroy something then obviously it no longer exists. But if you can destroy information then all sorts of other very weird things could happen too. However I don't think you can destroy information. I wasn't asking whether you thought they were destroyed but whether or not the factors of C still had definite values or not. I though I had already answered that. If physics is more fundamental than mathematics (and I have no idea if that's true or not) and if the universe has a computational limit as rigidly enforced as the speed of light limit (and I think that is probably true) and if information can be destroyed (and I think that is probably false) and if you destroy the factors of C then obviously C no longer has any factors. But they existed in a previous point in time. So does some computer's register have to hold the value of 3813819038120938901 in order for that number to exist? And then it stops existing as soon as the computer is turned off? Over how great a range (in time or space) can the computer whose register holds 3813819038120938901 influence the existence of 3813819038120938901? Your view is very difficult for me to wrap my head around. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
You are justifying the hatred and aggressions by Islamists against the rest of us. This is a big mistake. One counter example of Islamist murders against Christian Filipinos, Buddhist Thais, Hindus in India and Kashmir, Islamist aggression in Ceylon, in Sudan, in Nigeria, etc. These nations have zero to do with western imperialists. Here, at least, there's no cause and effect. If Algerian murderers in Paris kill magazine editors and Jews, who are they avenging? Is it Muslim honor, the Algerians, Palestinians, Syrians, the US president's negotiation with Iran because they are Shia vs ISIS Sunnis??? You make excuses for them to justify their actions. In essence you support them and their actions, This is fine with me. Each to their own. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 10:02 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] I am uncomfortable with the plaster of evil myself, since what it means to everyone is too vague. I would define the Jihadis as aggressive, malign, expansionism. Did western nations do this until recently? Hell, yes. The point is not to paper over the aggression done to expand the faith and enable a caliphate. Not to empower these aggressors, these new colonials. What about remediations for all this, I have a couple of vague ideas on what may work, circulated here before. Baring this or some other ideas, I suppose we all must play the hand we're dealt. Perhaps if we stopped invading their lands… and bombing them into freedom… torturing them into adopting Western “democratic values” they might not hate us as much as they do. We are witnessing the bumper crop sowed by the neocon inspired operation Iraqi freedom… ISIS is the bastard child of the last generational war. More bombs… and certainly a clash of civilizations end game is not a solution; it is just a horribly expensive recipe for continuous war. A cui bono? Not me, and that’s for fucking sure! Excuse me, if I piss all over your sick puppy, pathological desire for eternal war! (you who has never ever seen what war is up close and personal… you demand other people go do the killing and the dying for you, why are you still sitting on the couch? Sally forth and ride off to fight you own damn crusade… coward! You neocon bastards… have already murdered hundreds of thousands of human beings, you have already prescribed the solution of bombing people to freedom, how many more people must die in your neocon nightmare before the world wakes up and shake you all off… in the same manner as when someone realizes they have body lice. What would really help this earth is for some effective neocon delousing powder… it needs to be liberally applied all across the Anglo-American world (and in Israel and much of the EU) You had your time, hundreds of thousands of people died as a result… and you left the world with the parting gift of psychotic blowback in the form of ISIS. You’re neocon centered world view is bankrupt and devoid of substantive actual understanding arising from reality based perception. Go do your own killing and dying, leave the rest of us out of it… this world of ours does not need yet another chickenhawk couch potato psycho-general. -Chris -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 3:37 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 10:58 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:08 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, John, Chris P. is invoking imaginary Muslims who do not really exist in fact, but he desperately, wants to believe they do exist in real life. Chris P. is like many people, including world leaders like BHO who ideologically(?) will never concede that the majority of the Uma*, are fanatics, or silent in the face of fanaticism. Why are these folks this way? My best guess, is that they see that: a) the radical islamists are winning. And they'd better not speak up just in case. b) the ruling classes in the west, are weak-minded, or hungry for Islamic oil monies. So thus are cowards. c) Allah, might be on the side of the jihadists, so they, the uma, had better say nothing. I think western progressive liberals fail to speak out against a evil force that threatens their very core values for none of the above reasons, I think they do it because they've been
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On 24 Jan 2015, at 18:55, meekerdb wrote:
On 1/24/2015 12:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Do you see the relationship between Gödel's second incompleteness
theorem and the modal formula
t - ~[] t?
I don't see it, because I don't understand what t means.
In a modal logic, you can read it as possible t, or diamond t. But
in our context it is the modal logic G (or G*) which axiomatize
completely (at the modal propositional level) the logic of Gödel's
provability Beweisbar.
So t = ~[] f = 'not provable false' = I am consistent, so t
means I am consistent.
t is a tautology, the negation of a contradiction.
That's correct, you can intepret it in arithmetic by 0=0, and f by
0 = s(0).
Yet you seem to use t to mean has a model?
I use the completeness theorem: a theory is consistent if and only if
the theory has a model. It is true for all first-order theory and
their effective mechanical extension (Recursively-Enumerable-
theories). To say I am consistent is equivalent with I have a
model of myself, or there is a reality satisfying my beliefs.
And I'm not clear on how one is supposed to know the true
propositions of a model.
We cannot generate them all, but we can belief many of them, by
proving, of by extending ourself with new axioms/beliefs.
Note that all what I say applies to any machine believing in PA
axioms, with possible other axioms, as long as they remain
arithmetically sound (never proves something false in the standard
model of arithmetic).
Let me remind you of Solovay theorem.
We define a realization by a function r from the propositional
variable (of the modal logic) into the sentences of arithmetic. Then
we extend R into a full translation T_r of the modal formula into
arithmetical formula:
T_r(A B) = T_r(A) T_r(B) (same for v, -, ...)
T_r(~A) = ~T_r(A)
T_r(f) = 0 = s(0)
+ the only non trivial clause:
T_r([]A) = beweisbar('T_r(A)')
Solovay first theorem is:
G proves A iff for all realization r PA proves T_r(A)
Solovay second theorem is:
G* proves A iff for all realization r T_r(A) is true (in the standard
model of arithmetic (N, 0, +, *).
To extract physics, we need to restrict the arithmetical
interpretation to the sigma_1 formula. By a result of Visser, we have
the equivalent Solovay theorems, with G1 = G + (p- []p) and G1* =
G* + (p - []p). In fact p - []p characterize the sigma_1 formula,
and so p - []p is arithmetical-logical equation of the universal
dovetailer.
Note that G* (and G1*) can be interpreted in G (G1) making G*
decidable. Of course, PA, nor any Löbian machine can prove that G*
applies to itself (by the second theorem), that is why the ideally
correct machine remains mute on the its proper theology (G* minus G).
Yet, this representation theorem provides a theorem prover for G1*,
and its first and third person variants, the theory of matter are
given by Z1*, X1*, and S4Grz1* (= S4Grz1).
Bruno
Brent
(=
~[]f - ~[] ~ [] f,
==
[]t - ~t,
which shows that in G (and thus for the machine 3p self-
reference), consistency, t, is a simple solution to []x - ~x.
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RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:13 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Hee Hee! Still doing the Alinsky two-step? To be blunt, nobody did felatio better on Adolf's winkie back then, as your buddy, Joe Stalin did. Not, old man Kennedy, not even Neville Chamberlain performed as well. And Stalin ended up paying for it, or rather his half-murdered nation did. How will you expel me, or eradicate unwanted types like myself? Remember, those who fail to plan, plan to fail. :-D Mitch, you are an ignorant troll and the values you represent are antithetical to the values that the United States was founded on; you are an agent of an alien totalitarian ideology; a brown shirt tool of the enemies of our republic. You are an enemy of the US constitution and the republic that was founded upon those ideals. Fascists like you are trying to subvert our Republic from within and destroy it from within. You, continuously insinuate that I am consorting with enemies of the republic (e.g. committing treasonous acts) and question my patriotism, because I dare to oppose the mad ideology you represent! As a patriot I consider it my sacred duty to oppose brown-shirt tools of an alien and hostile ideology seeking to subvert the country I hold dear from within; you oppose the foundational ideals of America; you adhere to an ideology that would subvert the US Constitution and the republic founded upon it, imposing a totalitarian one party rule. Mitch, it is you, not I, who is un-American. -Chris Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 3:58 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:12 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Like the Beatles once intoned, Carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you're not going to make it with anyone, anyhow. Your carrying ideological water for the jihad brothers may make the state department smile, but if, and when, the shit hits the fan, people will remember who defended the Jihadists.Think of Charles Lindbergh and the German American Bund, circa 1941. And, there's the likelihood that most people will say, At least under Bushie43, we felt safe. Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:35 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 10:55 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has beaten him out. I also opposed the Iraq war. I was a kid and did not ask to witness that war either, but life had other plans for me, and I lived through a piece of history. Perhaps if you stopped reading talking points from a Faux News script you might begin to make a little sense. I hate Fox news and always have, their imbecilic Tea Party buddies too. I'm more of a MSNBC - New York Times sort of guy. Okay, but you sound that way when you go all reflexive and attribute all the violence in the Middle east and that spills over here to “them” having been offended by some cartoon, when the problems and issues run much deeper than that. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon Your father was a diplomat?! Wow, I never would have guessed that, obviously you didn't inherit the diplomatic gene; it's not just me, you can't seem to get along with anybody around here. I get along just fine with most people… it is mainly just you and Mitch (aka spudboy)
Re: Manifesto Rex
On 26 Jan 2015, at 7:43 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I study the consequences of a common assumption, and assuming a universal person is natural in this context. Here is the big sell, then. You have to somehow demonstrate to the human race that we are a universal person. Best of British, old son! The math alone maybe will convince another mathematician, but without your guiding values, they will fail to see the big picture we are sketching here, and instead will prefer to slap you down for it! The concept of the Universal Person needs to be hurled at humanity from the rooftops and from the pulpit and the schoolroom. Beethoven and Schiller tried in the 19th century. Jesus may have had something or other to say about it but nobody much appears to have understood. Plotinus: We ought not even to say that he will see, but he will be that which he sees, if indeed it is possible any longer to distinguish between seer and seen, and not boldly to affirm that the two are one. If comp is finally the better view of theology then it needs to be understood and acted upon. For once we are looking at the ways in which persons are the same rather than minutely examine the ways in which persons differ. The Universal Person sees no point in war, murder, prohibition and the like because it no longer merely applies to others; it applies to the self. You don't disallow others from doing what you allow yourself - this is not libertarianism; this is self-referentially correct behaviour of a consistent machine that knows that it cannot prove with arrogant certainty its own consistency. Also, if the conception of that idea was more widespread; it might limit the attempt of some people to annoy or kill other people, given that they would be more likely able to suspect being, maybe, those other people when put in a different general situation. This then, is our only hope to enter into the experience of another in the hope of understanding their otherness. Paradoxically, you now ERASE the concept of otherness in your outlook. This is more than simple empathy. This is the fundamental assumption that you ARE in fact more than one single individual yourself but that you only have your personal perspective. Different people are now seen as the self from a different perspective. This kind of happens already in the tribal/family view of persons but tribes and families despite being able to empathise and psychologically bond with their own - never seem to get over their inability to empathise with different tribes and families. It helps from going from: Hitler is the bad. We won against Hitler the bad. The good has won, cheers and tra-la-la ... To I have made a big cruel mistake, I succeeded in stopping it, how can I prevent to do it again, ... This implies that humans may one day learn the lessons of history but they never do. The reason is they study too much history. If you read 1,000 books about the causes of WWI then you have not become an expert at how to prevent war but rather an expert at how to cause war. There is no school subject called Human Universality. Why do humans never study the ways in which all the tribes and clans and families are the same as each other? What really is the difference between a Jew and a Palestinian? A Chinese and a Japanese? A German and an Austrian? A Christian and a Muslim. All of these designators are fake, fake, fake. They all say I want to be taken seriously on tribal family grounds, not on grounds of human universality. K But that is not normative, only it might encourage the spiritual experiences (be it with music, or whatever) which can help people to recognize themselves on a vaster spectrum. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:17 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Brent, the selectivity of his outrage typifies who he blames who whom he hates. Its never that he and his droogies are anti-war, but they are anti-Us participation in any war you can think of. Beyond that, the Islamists are now trying for the death of 1000 cuts, little strikes, lone wolves, loaners, etc. Eventually they will be in a position to gain better weaponry and funding and planning. Do you think I am wrong? You are an enemy of the ideals and principles the country I love was founded on, Mitch. You are an enemy of the republic who would subvert it from within and turn it into a One Party totalitarian state where opposition to the Party becomes a crime against the state. That is the sick ideology you represent and adhere to; it is foreign and inimical to the principles of the Republic. You may wrap yourself in the American flag, in fact I am quite sure that you do, but you are an enemy of the underlying principles of the Republic that flag represents. You are a troll on a mission to help bring about a clash of civilizations eternal state of war… fuck you and your mission, I despise cowards like you who demand other people go off to kill and die. Face it buddy, you are an un-American Fascist troll. -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On 1/25/2015 5:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemies carries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamists as victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't get you anywhere. WTF are you on about? Chris didn't say anything siding with the US's enemies or defending Islamic terrorists. You sound like one of Rush's ditto heads. Islamic terrorists are just that - terrorists. They have no more chance of conquering the U.S. or Western Europe than the North Vietnamese did. At a national level they are a public health problem like auto accidents and measles. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 4:02 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Platonist Guitar Cowboy *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 6:35 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? What? You don't think if I post my position a few more dozen times, that the problem will not disappear from the global stage? Dear Internet of grand opinionage, I am disappointed in you! I wish you luck on your world changing quest…. There is some possibility that a few dozen or more posts on your part could trigger some world history altering re-framing within billions of minds; good luck on that. Go easy on me, man! The truth hurts enough, even though you said no single truth at the end of your last post, so I guess it's ok, if that itself is true...but wait! Oh no, my paradox is eating me alive... PG(no more time to complete acronym) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
What you're describing sounds a little bit like cellular automata, which start with a single cell (maybe the existent entity called nothing?) and a rule and out of that comes emergent stuff possibly like our universe. But, anyways I once again agree with what you're saying that the emergent properties of nothing can be pretty amazing, IMHO. On Sunday, January 25, 2015 at 2:57:29 AM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote: *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *Sent:* Saturday, January 24, 2015 9:52 PM *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Subject:* Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics? Roger: It's possible that what we see as existing is a simulation in some other computer. But, even if we are a simulation, the simulation that is us exists as does the computer and the code we're a simulation in. My thinking is aimed at trying to figure out there are existent entities, whether we call them simulations, singular arithmetic computations/propositions, or whatever, instead of there not being existent entities. Existence and non-existence can be viewed as different perspectives on nothing…. existence and non-existence are emergent and understood in dialectic opposition to each other… they arise out of each other, and are defined in terms of each other. -Chris Chris, I totally agree and that's what I've been trying to get at in my thinking and at the website. Well put! Well… it does seem we agree about nothing J Have been pondering something I read a while ago when I began reading Russell’s book (online first and now in the much better form of a real book) It is this bit of information about information. A very simple mathematical operation that can be described – defined by a simple recursive program produces an unending stream of numbers defining it to an ever more precise numeric precision… to infinity. Some such numbers say 10/3 are highly ordered and repetitive though never ending. The example Russell gave is an unending numeric stream that is however different from – say 10/3 -- in that the resulting stream of numbers that it outputs is highly chaotic and unordered very much resembling the number streams generated by the best random algorithms. The very simple operation of defining the square root of two generates an -- (as far as we know infinitely extending) – number stream that is characterized by a high degree of randomness. Now say you are an observer from a parallel universe who somehow gets a kind of sample set through some absurd imaginary portal that deluges the poor fellow with reams upon reams of seemingly random data – each one of them, let’s give it a data dimension say a KB, MB, GB doesn’t matter, but constrained to a given chunk or window size. These inter-dimensional data packets unfortunately arrive to our observer in a scrambled order…. The data deluge arrives for eternity… but will the recipient ever be able to derive the function from the data. I doubt a highly random data stream – generated by a very simple operation – could be re-ordered. What could those observers deduce from this endless series of out of order packets containing numeric data of a given range of degrees of precision in the infinite stream resulting from the eternal recursive refinement of this operation? Would they ever be able to work back to the function from this out of order quantized series of numeric data packets picked from random slots in the infinite series? It seems highly improbable to me, maybe there is some subtle ordering in the output stream that could eventually become apparent after enough data chunks were cross compared. Who knows, I am no expert on the randomness of the output of the square root of two, but in general sense there are functions f() that can be defined by a simple set of recursive or looping actions… e.g. a simple program... that can generate an infinite and – for the sake of argument – perfectly random numeric output stream (doesn’t matter if it is in base ten or base two, or any other base) – e.g. a simple program like the one that recursively continues to define ever increasing degrees of precision for the square root of two, but that is abstract and ideal in that its output is taken to be perfectly random – one terabyte of data in the stream looking pretty much like any other similar sized chunk from the stream. I pity those observers, and feel that no matter how many resources they brought to bear in trying to discover the meaning of this mysterious numeric communication coming through their inter-dimensional portal… that they would never be able to figure the actual simple formula / program that produced the petabytes ^ petabytes ^ petabytes ^ petabytes (ad infinitum) of data in their
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has beaten him out. I also opposed the Iraq war. Perhaps if you stopped reading talking points from a Faux News script you might begin to make a little sense. I hate Fox news and always have, their imbecilic Tea Party buddies too. I'm more of a MSNBC - New York Times sort of guy. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon Your father was a diplomat?! Wow, I never would have guessed that, obviously you didn't inherit the diplomatic gene; it's not just me, you can't seem to get along with anybody around here. You may not like me, Well..., it doesn't exactly cement the bonds of friendship to express the wish that I get Alzheimer's disease and that only then after your brain has fully and completely rotted into a plaque ridden mush does nature finally do the kindness of killing you off. It just doesn't seem very friendly to say that an amusing thought would be me growing into a vegetative Alzheimer riddled sponge and that the thought still cracks me up with laughter John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 5:26 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? You are justifying the hatred and aggressions by Islamists against the rest of us. This is a big mistake. One counter example of Islamist murders against Christian Filipinos, Buddhist Thais, Hindus in India and Kashmir, Islamist aggression in Ceylon, in Sudan, in Nigeria, etc. These nations have zero to do with western imperialists. Here, at least, there's no cause and effect. If Algerian murderers in Paris kill magazine editors and Jews, who are they avenging? Is it Muslim honor, the Algerians, Palestinians, Syrians, the US president's negotiation with Iran because they are Shia vs ISIS Sunnis??? You make excuses for them to justify their actions. In essence you support them and their actions, This is fine with me. Each to their own. A lying ugly response that is straight out of Goebel’s recipe in his Nazi cookbook of how to do propaganda. You make evil insinuations about my motives and attempt to equate any opposition to your mad desire for a clash of civilizations with support for the terrorists. That is both an evil and a dishonest thing to do… loser. Here is an appropriate Goebels quote that describes exactly what you are doing: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” The big difference is that he was the Minister of propaganda of an ascendant Nazi regime, while you are merely some psychopath couch potato wannabe warrior pining to see some more shock and awe on light up television screen. A fucking evil clown is what you are Mitch -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 10:02 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] I am uncomfortable with the plaster of evil myself, since what it means to everyone is too vague. I would define the Jihadis as aggressive, malign, expansionism. Did western nations do this until recently? Hell, yes. The point is not to paper over the aggression done to expand the faith and enable a caliphate. Not to empower these aggressors, these new colonials. What about remediations for all this, I have a couple of vague ideas on what may work, circulated here before. Baring this or some other ideas, I suppose we all must play the hand we're dealt. Perhaps if we stopped invading their lands… and bombing them into freedom… torturing them into adopting Western “democratic values” they might not hate us as much as they do. We are witnessing the bumper crop sowed by the neocon inspired operation Iraqi freedom… ISIS is the bastard child of the last generational war. More bombs… and certainly a clash of civilizations end game is not a solution; it is just a horribly expensive recipe for continuous war. A cui bono? Not me, and that’s for fucking sure! Excuse me, if I piss all over your sick puppy, pathological desire for eternal war! (you who has never ever seen what war is up close and personal… you demand other people go do the killing and the dying for you, why are you still sitting on the couch? Sally forth and ride off to fight you own damn crusade… coward! You neocon bastards… have already murdered hundreds of thousands of human beings, you have already prescribed the solution of bombing people to freedom, how many more people must die in your neocon nightmare before the world wakes up and shake you all off… in the same manner as when someone realizes they have body lice. What would really help this earth is for some effective neocon delousing powder… it needs to be liberally applied all across the Anglo-American world (and in Israel and much of the EU) You had your time, hundreds of thousands of people died as a result… and you left the world with the parting gift of psychotic blowback in the form of ISIS. You’re neocon centered world view is bankrupt and devoid of substantive actual understanding arising from reality based perception. Go do your own killing and dying, leave the rest of us out of it… this world of ours does not need yet another chickenhawk couch potato psycho-general. -Chris -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On 25 Jan 2015, at 09:45, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:43 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/24/2015 1:23 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 10:15 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/23/2015 8:16 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Friday, January 23, 2015, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote Do we know that? Do we know that such a digit exists? It follows from the axioms that there is a certain definite digit. They show you how to generate terms in a sequence and if you add up enough of them you'd get the the 10^(10^(10^100))th decimal digit of pi; but it assumes that there is no barrier that makes doing that impossible and states that assumption with 3 little dots (...). I don't know for certain but those 3 little dots *might* be saying something that is logical nonsense, I do know for certain that the first mathematicians who used those 3 little dots knew nothing about quantum mechanics or the computational limit of the universe, and that gives me pause. What I explained is that if you think there is a largest number *that* is what definitely leads to logical nonsense. Say there is a largest number N, such that N+1 is not a bigger number, but is still N. That means N+0 = N+1. Now subtract N from both sides. Why should subtraction of the biggest number not obey special rules, e.g. Subtracting N from any normal number yields -N. Subtracting N from any Big number yields zero. I still don't know if that would escape the problems. Let's say M is the number right before the biggest number (or any Big numbers). Then using your rules you find that: M - (M+1) = 0 --- or is it -N? but (M - M) + 1 = 1 It might be possible to come up with axioms that allow you to have a biggest number that operates in a consistent way, but I think it would be very difficult, and probably not very useful. It may be useful in computer science, c.f. http://www.impan.pl/~kz/files/MKKZ_ArFM.pdf Nor do I see the point of hobbling a theory (supposedly about the infinite natural numbers) by declaring some aspects of that theory to be strictly off limits and beyond the possibility of discussion. I'm not proposing that anything is off limits. I'm proposing that there are different axiomatic systems which may equally correspond with our finite observations, How can it be said that any physical observation corresponds with entities that exist within an axiomatic system? Do you see the goal of physics being to provide mathematicians with a correct axiomatic system? therefore it is not justified to pick one of them and claim that it is empirically proven. Axiomatic systems may contradict one another and that is why X provable in A1 only implies X true relative to A1 and not exists X. Plato was led to suppose that perfect forms existed because in his day it seemed there was only one possible mathematics which was something like arithmetic plus Euclid. In our day we know that no axiomatic system can be perfect, and accordingly that axiomatic systems can at best approach/approximate rather than prescribe/define truth. In that way they're not much different from physical theories we develop about the objective physical universe: axiomatic systems are theories about objective mathematical objects. Without doubt for the separable part of mathematics. The situation is more problematic for analysis, set theories. With computationalism it is simpler to already put analysis, like physics, in the epistemological. Even if a large part of (constructive) real numbers can be conceive and talk about directly in PA, soon or later PA might add a new axiom to extends its perception of the arithmetical truth. The (re)discovery by the humans of the universal machine is a recurrent theme in the arithmetical reality. Nature did already with the DNA, then again, with the brain, and before with the quantum vacuum. Those are abstract big-bangs. There are Creative (in Post sense) Explosions. There are transfinite, when viewed from inside arithmetic by arithmetical creatures. The arithmetical reality is full of life, and of gods (non computable sets talking about the truth about machines, that those machine cannot prove, know, observe, etc). Perhaps too much, so that a digital brain cannot filter the computational histories+oracles, and some primitive matter would have a (non Turing emulable) role (We would be less free, I think. It looks ad hoc, but only the measure theory, and the testing can decide). Abstractly, computationalism leads to a Many-Types, No-Token, theory. Token becomes indexicals pertaining on equivalence classes for first person non-distinguishability relations. Bruno Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On 25 Jan 2015, at 05:47, 'Roger' via Everything List wrote: The starting question is this: are you OK with the idea that we would not see any difference from our first person point of view with an artificial digital brain (copying the brain at some level of description). Putting him roughly: do you accept the idea that the brain is a sort of (natural) machine/computer (like the heart is accepted to be a natural pump)? While many on this list seem to believe in it, not even everyone here seems to buy into it. It's one idea among many. As I've said many times, let's all work our models and see what progress we can make. All what I say is derived from the assumption that the brain or the body is Turing emulable at a level such that if we turing-emulate it, you would not see the difference subjectively. It is my working assumption. Roger: It's possible that what we see as existing is a simulation in some other computer. And thus in arithmetic, which can be proved to emulate all computers, on all programs, on all input. This is standard knowledge for logicians, but not always well known by non-logicians. It is crucial when we assume computationalism. In particular the mere idea that 2+2=4 (and the like) entails the existence of all computations going through you actual state (say), even as part of infinitely many computations, all existing in the same sense that prime numbers exists. In fact the result is that IF computationalism is correct THEN physics is reduced to the calculus of the First Person Indeterminacy on all computations (going through my actual state in case I want to make an actual prediction). The interesting question is: does this leads to unitary evolution like it is suggested by the empirical experience? This has been partially solved: the logic of the probability one (on yes-no experiments) gives a quantum logic, and a quantization of classical histories similar to the one suggested by the experience. But, even if we are a simulation, the simulation that is us exists as does the computer and the code we're a simulation in. Yes. Not only they exist, but their existence can be proved in the same sense that we can prove the existence of this or that prime number. My thinking is aimed at trying to figure out there are existent entities, whether we call them simulations, singular arithmetic computations/propositions, or whatever, instead of there not being existent entities. Of course. That is the most interesting question. Hmm... You might be disappointed. It is logically impossible to explain or justify (prove) the existence of something without assuming some things and some relation on those things. In fact, if you want your reality being Turing universal, you need to assume a Turing universal system. The full predicate classical logical calculus is not Turing universal. Arithmetic with only addition leads already to a very rich and complex mathematics, but is decidable and thus not Turing Universal. Same with only multiplication. But astonishingly enough addition + multiplication leads to Turing universality. Then the reasoning exploiting computationalism + computer science, shows that physics (and theology) are machine or theory independent, for the basic ontology. I use the number, because people are familiar with them, but sometimes I use combinateurs, or the phi_i formalism to help keeping in mind the theory independence of both matter and mind. Abstractly matter is a sort of derivative of the mind. Some like results by Blok and Ysapia on some Cantor space semantic of G might be used to make this more literal (the derivative *is* a leibnitzian derivative, but the topology is not an hausdorffian topology. I sum up often by a simple parody of Kronecker: God created the natural numbers and said add and multiply, all the rest belongs to the imagination of some numbers. -- Roger: I can accept any idea including arithmetical reality as long as there's more logic and evidence for it than for other ideas. That's what I call being an agnostic. I haven't seen or read anything here or elsewhere that has convinced me of arithmetical reality as opposed to other ideas. You add metaphysics where there is none. Did you go out of the classroom at school when they mentioned the existence of the even numbers, or of the prime numbers? Roger :It's unclear to me how wanting logic and evidence (mostly just evidence) for an idea is adding metaphysics. My question was more about your belief that the following axioms makes sense. x + 0 = x x + successor(y) = successor(x + y) x * 0 = 0 x * successor(y) = x + (x * y) OK? We assume also: 0 is different from all successor(x) successor(x) = successor(y) - x = y -- My assumption is that there is no magic operating in the brain. Roger:
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On 25 Jan 2015, at 06:52, 'Roger' via Everything List wrote: Roger: It's possible that what we see as existing is a simulation in some other computer. But, even if we are a simulation, the simulation that is us exists as does the computer and the code we're a simulation in. My thinking is aimed at trying to figure out there are existent entities, whether we call them simulations, singular arithmetic computations/propositions, or whatever, instead of there not being existent entities. Existence and non-existence can be viewed as different perspectives on nothing…. existence and non-existence are emergent and understood in dialectic opposition to each other… they arise out of each other, and are defined in terms of each other. -Chris Chris, I totally agree and that's what I've been trying to get at in my thinking and at the website. Well put! And Peter Sas presents a similar idea, and maybe that idea could lead to the winner of the measure, who knows?, but what is sure is that if you make that idea precise enough, it will have to be Turing universal, if only to get the computers and the ability to run them (and taking the MGA into account) I am not sure you want to play the game of making things precise, like formalizing it in some logic, or in some know theory. No problem, except that nothing is for me a bit like No-god, it means nothing without a precision on the word thing or god. The semantic of the empty theory is the class of all realities, in logic, so everything and nothing are dual, but we need to make the thing precise, and some laws on them, to explains precisely how something becomes apparent to conscious entities, and seems lawful, partially sharable, etc. I mean if you want make a testable theory. Bruno Roger https://sites.google.com/site/whydoesanythingexist/ and a more detailed explanation along with more philosophical stuff and a beginning model is at: https://sites.google.com/site/ralphthewebsite/ (click on 3rd link down) While we are working on different models, it's been a great discussion. Thanks. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemies carries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamists as victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't get you anywhere. My guess is that it is likely that when the Islamists strike again in the US, there will be a large scale public reaction. Remember 9-11? Think of the quietude of most progressives back then...silence. This time I see a day of rage, directed against the enablers and sympathizers of the Islamists. But that day may never happen, in the sense that only lone wolf attacks are doable. But if the worse happens, the supporters of Jihad, even though they are atheist - socialists will be focused on. Don't change your mind, but be aware, at least. My siding with who? … you are a lying sack of insinuating shit… a brown shirt fascist Tea Party freak… you and your filthy Nazi ideology have no place in America; you are antithetical to everything this country stands for evil fascist clown. -Chris -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 11:36 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Have you ever lived through shock and awe.. in real life, not the remote digitally delivered sound and light show you see on CNN, but the real live terrifying horrendous fucking thing? No. Have you? Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager when my eyes were opened up wide to the true meaning and reality of war. I experienced the hatred up close and personal; I was there right up (13 days) to the end and witnessed the implosion of a regime. I have seen people executed in front of me and had M16s hot from just being fired pointed at me and seen my life flash by. I have seen napalm burned wrecks of human beings living on sidewalks as refugees, with nowhere to piss and no hope to live for… dead empty eyes of war depression…. I have seen lepers their cheeks eaten away by the disease… heard the bombs and saw the green flares parachute down followed by the flashes and booms…. Night after night, after night…. Seen convoys of coffins… two per truck, returning the dead. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon at that time, as the entire system imploded in those end of regime days. I have been personally the object of the hatred and had my head really bloodied in a big circle of hissing pure venomous hatred directed at me – the American teenager stand in for all the wrongs done to them. I learned how to be a warrior on that very day, how to commit myself to an existential immediacy of life and death struggle, surrounded by a blood thirsty hissing mob. I am alive, because I learned how to be a warrior when I was just 15 and I fought my way out going for the mobs leader – I knew I was going to kill him if I was going to die…. And my calm directed deadly intent blew an opening in the circle of hatred around me. My early life I spent in countries under-going regime change or where dark history was being made – e.g. in locales that fit the ancient Chinese curse of may you live in interesting times. I saw starving children with Kwashiorkor in Liberia when I was a five year old kid. Our world, in truth, when all the BS is stripped away, is a world of haves and have nothings, divided between warring spheres of influence, each ruled by largely occult and rarely mentioned elites who operate behind the superficial forms and ceremony that is kept front and center in order to distract and obfuscate. I grew up in the front line places where this great game was being executed on and it took me more than a decade to understand and work through all of the repercussions of the soul, that living through the kinds of intense experiences I did live through (my father seemed to always end up right in the middle of world’s dirty wars… and coup d'état working it from the “diplomatic” side of things). I have been to Afghanistan and to Libya… I swam amongst the
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 7:57 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics? On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: The very simple operation of defining the square root of two generates an -- (as far as we know infinitely extending) – number stream that is characterized by a high degree of randomness. That would only be pseudorandom. Agreed and said as much by phrasing in terms of having a high degree of randomness (perhaps I should have been specific and said pseudorandom) Algorithms are deterministic, and random means a event without a cause. There exists a short algorithm that can produce the decimal value of digits the square root of 2 to any desired degree of precision so it can't be random. PI also has such a algorithm, and so does e and so does any real number you can name, so none of them can be random. However Turing proved in 1936 that the vast majority of numbers on the real number line have no name and no algorithm can produce them, or rather the only algorithm to produce a true random number would be just as long as the as the number itself; for example the only algorithm that could produce a sequence of truly random digits would just be a list of those digits. That's why no program can compress random white noise. To produce true randomness you'd need a physical random number generator, something involving radioactive decay or photons of light hitting a polarizing filter would do the trick. As with so many other things it is a matter of degree. There are a plethora of pseudorandom number generators out there and they are compared to each other based on the “randomness” of their sampled output. A good generator (when also well seeded) does a fairly good (though of course not perfect) job. But I agree it is devilishly hard to produce a truly random stream and a lot of brain power has gone into trying to do so, because of the strategic importance of doing so. Turing also proved that while the computable numbers are denumerable, that is countably infinite, the non-computable (random) numbers belong to the next higher class of infinity.So if you had a dart with a infinitely sharp point and threw it at the real number line there is a 100% chance it will hit a non-computable number and a 0% chance it will hit a computable number. Agreed, but also true that it is possible to define useful sub classes amongst the larger set of all non-computable numbers, according to how compressible the output stream is. Ten divided by three results in a non-computable number that is however quite amenable to compression algorithms that could represent any given chunk of the infinite stream using far less bits than the represented numeric stream itself… a series of is easy to compress. The highly random output stream – take any local section of the stream – of square root of two is instead very difficult to compress, e.g. the “compressed” encoding of a given chunk (KB, MB, GB etc.) of its output would probably not take any less storage resources than the raw data. By the way I think Alan Turing was one of the giants of 20th century science, the current movie The Imitation Game is about his non-scientific but very important work breaking the German Enigma Code during the second world war. I loved the movie. So do I… and the British persecuted him to death in gratitude, after he possibly saved them in the war by breaking Enigma. But at least they protected Christian values and also finally posthumously awarded him a medal (2013) Now say you are an observer from a parallel universe who somehow gets akind of sample set through some absurd imaginary portal that deluges the poor fellow with reams upon reams of seemingly random data By seemingly random I assume you mean it came from a algorithm. Yes, it is not truly random, but the chunks have been randomly scrambled in the transmission (assume it for the sake of argument)… now I am not sure, perhaps square root of two will leave subtle patterns in the apparently random series that a clever algorithm could pull out. This possibility increases as the chunk size increases, and conversely it becomes less likely if the order scrambled transmitted data packets are smaller size – a KB versus a TB -- each one of them, let’s give it a data dimension say a KB, MB, GB doesn’t matter, but constrained to a given chunk or window size. These inter-dimensional data packets unfortunately arrive to our observer in a scrambled order How is the data stream scrambled, by another algorithm or a physical random process such as radioactivity decay? Assume by
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] What you're describing sounds a little bit like cellular automata, which start with a single cell (maybe the existent entity called nothing?) and a rule and out of that comes emergent stuff possibly like our universe. But, anyways I once again agree with what you're saying that the emergent properties of nothing can be pretty amazing, IMHO. Yes cellular automata, but could also be a simple program with an endless – highly non-compressible -- output running on an infinite tape. The point I was pointing at is that out of simple initial conditions, even potentially no conditions hypothetically, an infinitely complex – non-compressible – resulting data stream can be produced. If one is in the position of having only a non-privileged and partial view of this infinite stream it could very much seem nearly impossible to ever hope to discover the cause, by working back from the resulting effect. Whereas if one had a privileged outside view of the system and was able to observe the program (or automata) in operation it would be clear, concise and possible to defined (with a finite bounded definition)) some program that will exactly produce the resultant unbounded set. Sometimes perspective and point of view is everything. -Chris On Sunday, January 25, 2015 at 2:57:29 AM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote: From: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: ] Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 9:52 PM To: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: Subject: Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics? Roger: It's possible that what we see as existing is a simulation in some other computer. But, even if we are a simulation, the simulation that is us exists as does the computer and the code we're a simulation in. My thinking is aimed at trying to figure out there are existent entities, whether we call them simulations, singular arithmetic computations/propositions, or whatever, instead of there not being existent entities. Existence and non-existence can be viewed as different perspectives on nothing…. existence and non-existence are emergent and understood in dialectic opposition to each other… they arise out of each other, and are defined in terms of each other. -Chris Chris, I totally agree and that's what I've been trying to get at in my thinking and at the website. Well put! Well… it does seem we agree about nothing J Have been pondering something I read a while ago when I began reading Russell’s book (online first and now in the much better form of a real book) It is this bit of information about information. A very simple mathematical operation that can be described – defined by a simple recursive program produces an unending stream of numbers defining it to an ever more precise numeric precision… to infinity. Some such numbers say 10/3 are highly ordered and repetitive though never ending. The example Russell gave is an unending numeric stream that is however different from – say 10/3 -- in that the resulting stream of numbers that it outputs is highly chaotic and unordered very much resembling the number streams generated by the best random algorithms. The very simple operation of defining the square root of two generates an -- (as far as we know infinitely extending) – number stream that is characterized by a high degree of randomness. Now say you are an observer from a parallel universe who somehow gets a kind of sample set through some absurd imaginary portal that deluges the poor fellow with reams upon reams of seemingly random data – each one of them, let’s give it a data dimension say a KB, MB, GB doesn’t matter, but constrained to a given chunk or window size. These inter-dimensional data packets unfortunately arrive to our observer in a scrambled order…. The data deluge arrives for eternity… but will the recipient ever be able to derive the function from the data. I doubt a highly random data stream – generated by a very simple operation – could be re-ordered. What could those observers deduce from this endless series of out of order packets containing numeric data of a given range of degrees of precision in the infinite stream resulting from the eternal recursive refinement of this operation? Would they ever be able to work back to the function from this out of order quantized series of numeric data packets picked from random slots in the infinite series? It seems highly improbable to me, maybe there is some subtle ordering in the output stream that could eventually become apparent after enough data chunks were cross compared. Who knows, I am no expert on the randomness of the output of the square root of two, but in general sense there are functions f() that can be defined by a simple set of recursive or looping actions… e.g. a
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: The very simple operation of defining the square root of two generates an -- (as far as we know infinitely extending) – number stream that is characterized by a high degree of randomness. That would only be pseudorandom. Algorithms are deterministic, and random means a event without a cause. There exists a short algorithm that can produce the decimal value of digits the square root of 2 to any desired degree of precision so it can't be random. PI also has such a algorithm, and so does e and so does any real number you can name, so none of them can be random. However Turing proved in 1936 that the vast majority of numbers on the real number line have no name and no algorithm can produce them, or rather the only algorithm to produce a true random number would be just as long as the as the number itself; for example the only algorithm that could produce a sequence of truly random digits would just be a list of those digits. That's why no program can compress random white noise. To produce true randomness you'd need a physical random number generator, something involving radioactive decay or photons of light hitting a polarizing filter would do the trick. Turing also proved that while the computable numbers are denumerable, that is countably infinite, the non-computable (random) numbers belong to the next higher class of infinity.So if you had a dart with a infinitely sharp point and threw it at the real number line there is a 100% chance it will hit a non-computable number and a 0% chance it will hit a computable number. By the way I think Alan Turing was one of the giants of 20th century science, the current movie The Imitation Game is about his non-scientific but very important work breaking the German Enigma Code during the second world war. I loved the movie. Now say you are an observer from a parallel universe who somehow gets akind of sample set through some absurd imaginary portal that deluges the poor fellow with reams upon reams of seemingly random data By seemingly random I assume you mean it came from a algorithm. each one of them, let’s give it a data dimension say a KB, MB, GB doesn’t matter, but constrained to a given chunk or window size. These inter-dimensional data packets unfortunately arrive to our observer in a scrambled order How is the data stream scrambled, by another algorithm or a physical random process such as radioactivity decay? The data deluge arrives for eternity… but will the recipient ever be able to derive the function from the data. In other words will the recipient ever be able to predict what the next digit will be? If you had a large enough sample and true randomness was not used then you could at least in theory predict what the next digit will be ( assuming you don't run up against the limit on the number of computations the universe says can be performed in it), but if true physical randomness was involved at any point then it would be hopeless. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Platonist Guitar Cowboy Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 7:13 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 4:02 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Platonist Guitar Cowboy Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 6:35 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? What? You don't think if I post my position a few more dozen times, that the problem will not disappear from the global stage? Dear Internet of grand opinionage, I am disappointed in you! I wish you luck on your world changing quest…. There is some possibility that a few dozen or more posts on your part could trigger some world history altering re-framing within billions of minds; good luck on that. Go easy on me, man! The truth hurts enough, even though you said no single truth at the end of your last post, so I guess it's ok, if that itself is true...but wait! Oh no, my paradox is eating me alive... PG(no more time to complete acronym) Ahhh… the dread paradox predicament…. Consider this: there are multiple truths and each hurts in its own way; it is therefore of some common comfort that nothing can escape! -Chris -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
Roger: It's possible that what we see as existing is a simulation in some other computer. And thus in arithmetic, which can be proved to emulate all computers, on all programs, on all input. This is standard knowledge for logicians, but not always well known by non-logicians. It is crucial when we assume computationalism. In particular the mere idea that 2+2=4 (and the like) entails the existence of all computations going through you actual state (say), even as part of infinitely many computations, all existing in the same sense that prime numbers exists. In fact the result is that IF computationalism is correct THEN physics is reduced to the calculus of the First Person Indeterminacy on all computations (going through my actual state in case I want to make an actual prediction). The interesting question is: does this leads to unitary evolution like it is suggested by the empirical experience? This has been partially solved: the logic of the probability one (on yes-no experiments) gives a quantum logic, and a quantization of classical histories similar to the one suggested by the experience. Roger: It's also possible that what we see as existing is not a simulation in some other computer. I'm not arguing that if there is an arithmetical reality or that we're a simulation then your ideas are right. All I'm saying is that if there's not an arithmetical reality or that we're not in a simulation, then another model is needed. That's the path I'm working on. - My thinking is aimed at trying to figure out there are existent entities, whether we call them simulations, singular arithmetic computations/propositions, or whatever, instead of there not being existent entities. Of course. That is the most interesting question. Hmm... You might be disappointed. It is logically impossible to explain or justify (prove) the existence of something without assuming some things and some relation on those things. Roger: Logical arguments are based on initial assumptions. Many things might seem impossible based on a certain set of assumptions. - I will take a look. A participant of this list Peter Sas has made a facebook page on that question why is there something rather than nothing. Roger: Thanks for checking it out. Yep, I've checked out Peter's stuff. Unfortunately, the website provider I use, google, doesn't allow page names beyond a certain length, and why is there something rather than nothing is beyond that limit. I looked at one of your publications you mentioned earlier but will look at it in more detail based on our discussion. - While we are working on different models, it's been a great discussion. Thanks. Not sure we have different models... My point is that we can work on such problem with the scientific attitude. The difficulty is that it uses mathematical logic and theoretical computer science, which are not so well known... Roger: Your point about working on such problems with a scientific attitude is something I can totally agree with. At my site, I mention that one because metaphysics is supposed to be about the nature of being and reality, and because our universe (whether it's an arithmetic-based dream or physical entities or whatever) bes and exists, and because physics is the study of the universe, the laws of physics should be ultimately derivable from the principals of metaphysics. We can take metaphysical ideas and use them to build models of the universe and eventually make testable predictions, and if the evidence doesn't hold up then make some other hypotheses and test them. This is basically what science is, and I agree that it's the right attitude to take in all of our thinking in trying to figure out the universe. I'm a biochemist so will have to wait more until I retire to work on the physics predictions. But, until then, I can always think! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
John, I don't know if I agree. Evil, can mean anything from opposing abortion, to supporting abortion. How ought we define evil. A refined definition is clearer, so I go with my own definition based only on behavior. For me, its like a motorist going through a 25 mph zone, at 85 mph. Illegal, and the reason why needs to be questioned. Even if the speeder was rushing to the hospital for an emergency for a family member, and the speeder kills someone, by accident, how are we to judge the accidental homicide? That's law and we are speaking of the Law called Sharia, to be imposed on all of us, and empowered by the Progressives, worldwide. As to the vileness of the jihadists, this is beyond question. The enablers of the Jihad, the academics and the politicians from the white house on down, are setting themselves up for a societal change, I suspect. Why? Because their description of the Islamists and who they are, their culture, then opinions, attitudes, and beliefs, do not factually match the reality. So what? What, will be, for the US, when the Jihadists successfully strike, once more, in the nation. Then, I believe, will a plurality of US citizens say: At least under Bush we felt safe! I am not a Bushie fan, and believe he, like other Presidents, sell out the country. We survive, but we get sold out. Then, also, I guess, this plurality, will turn their anger upon the defenders and excuse-makers of the Jihadists. There's an article in the Atlantic magazine today (a liberal mag) suggesting that the Japanese may change their view on Islam and the Muslims, because of the ISIS execution. Who knows? -Original Message- From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 8:37 pm Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: I am uncomfortable with the plaster of evil myself, That is not unusual, most people in liberal western culture are far more uncomfortable with the word evil than they are with the word fuck, but I think its appropriate to use both words in certain circumstances. since what it means to everyone is too vague. There is no consensus on the meaning but to each individual the meaning of evil is about as un-vague as words get. I would define the Jihadis as aggressive, malign, expansionism. Don't forget ignorant and stupid! Did western nations do this until recently? Hell, yes. Western colonialists may have been as evil as Islamic Jihadis, well... almost, but they were not as ignorant and they were not as stupid. Also Western colonialists had the good manners not to exist during my lifetime. For these reason they haven't earned as much of my contempt as the Islamic Jihadis have, but there is no disputing matters of taste so your mileage may vary. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: The power of forgiveness... manifested
There's all kinds of incongruencies in the world. I am always cautious about when progressives go for the Jew thing because, as it is policy at the BBC for decades, is weep over the poor Jews in the Holocaust, but kill them all, in Israel and the US, for daring to fight back and retaliate against the Jihadists. To defend yourselves against Muslim, Jew haters is wrong, wrong, wrong. Oh, Jews, please be helpless victims again, so we at the Beeb can love and pity you (maybe?). It is now the mindset of the progressive-sad to say. Basically, the progressives in the EU have out-source their new holocaust to the Muslims now, without getting a drop of blood on their hands. You, as a software guy, must know of out-sourcing, right-sourcing, et? Not to try to top your article on forgiveness, but Hitler's grand nephew, of Willy Hitler, I forget his name, lives quietly in a suburb of Jerusalem, in Mea Sherim, as an orthodox Jew. This is true, but incongruous. Oy Vey! In this US there is also the progeny of Fidel Castro and Joseph Stalin, but you likely already knew this. If we really want to halt the warfare between Islam and the rest of us, we ought to tryfour things at the same time. This is all my blather, now.. 1. Do the thing that you hate the most, for the US to become more militarily powerful even more. We ought to be, in the end,willing to use it. 2. Get the world to be energy independent. If your solar works out as you hope, then this would be the energy of choice. That's IF? 3. Islam in all its forms is psychologically dependent on an afterlife-more so than Christianity, even! I don't know what this would entail, but the best, so far, is philosopher Eric C. Steinhart from New Jersey. at William Paterson University. His, Your Digital Afterlifes, which I just did a review on, seems to be the best. Because Steinhart has done software engineering his computational knowledge informs his philosophy. The nice thing is, whatever cosmological discoveries we may make, should not alter or threaten the logic of this digital philosophy approach. Yes, I think reading and believing in Steinharts' analysis might actually work-for everyone, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, whatever. I think this could lessen the tensions. 4. Wealth. Baksheesh, bribes, goodies-this could be performed by your solar future. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 1:16 am Subject: RE: The power of forgiveness... manifested A story of deep personal courage and wisdom that I stumbled across (while looking at what the Israeli press is saying, these days) … I am humbled by this woman and by her adopted son as well and their deep journey of forgiveness. When you read the title, your eyes will do a double take… if you read the article they will become wetted with tears. -Chris Holocaust survivor adopts grandson of Auschwitz commander At age 80, Auschwitz survivor Eva Mozes agrees to request by grandson of SS commander Rudolph Hoss to adopt him as her grandson. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4617650,00.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 11:08 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: I am uncomfortable with the plaster of evil myself, since what it means to everyone is too vague. I would define the Jihadis as aggressive, malign, expansionism. Malign: Evil in nature/effect. Aggressive and expansionism: American Football Did western nations do this until recently? Hell, yes. The point is not to paper over the aggression done to expand the faith and enable a caliphate. That would be trivializing evil, and therefore too vague. Right. Point taken. Not to empower these aggressors, these new colonials. That would be evil, and therefore too vague yet again, for example when the US fought to rid themselves of influence of British empire. Funny how people never have trouble telling who is who in such situation? Liberal idiots are the worst though. You have to protect freedom by taking it away from the whole cultural group; only shaming the whole group and liberals on this list, will solve the problem. Thankfully, we have this covered. Generously. What about remediations for all this, I have a couple of vague ideas on what may work, circulated here before. Which you will keep sharing, no matter what is said, thankfully. I guess, you will then follow that up with your assessment that you are quite powerless to do something in the first place? And then no excuses... to Chris today, as if you were presiding over a court case and were the list's appointed judge, that is quite funny and kind of sad. I make an effort to be the fool here, but yield to the tenacity, time, and sheer genius of the professionals. Out of my league this. PGC Armchair Colonel -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemies carries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamists as victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't get you anywhere. My guess is that it is likely that when the Islamists strike again in the US, there will be a large scale public reaction. Remember 9-11? Think of the quietude of most progressives back then...silence. This time I see a day of rage, directed against the enablers and sympathizers of the Islamists. But that day may never happen, in the sense that only lone wolf attacks are doable. But if the worse happens, the supporters of Jihad, even though they are atheist - socialists will be focused on. Don't change your mind, but be aware, at least. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 11:36 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Have you ever lived through shock and awe.. in real life, not the remote digitally delivered sound and light show you see on CNN, but the real live terrifying horrendous fucking thing? No. Have you? Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager when my eyes were opened up wide to the true meaning and reality of war. I experienced the hatred up close and personal; I was there right up (13 days) to the end and witnessed the implosion of a regime. I have seen people executed in front of me and had M16s hot from just being fired pointed at me and seen my life flash by. I have seen napalm burned wrecks of human beings living on sidewalks as refugees, with nowhere to piss and no hope to live for… dead empty eyes of war depression…. I have seen lepers their cheeks eaten away by the disease… heard the bombs and saw the green flares parachute down followed by the flashes and booms…. Night after night, after night…. Seen convoys of coffins… two per truck, returning the dead. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon at that time, as the entire system imploded in those end of regime days. I have been personally the object of the hatred and had my head really bloodied in a big circle of hissing pure venomous hatred directed at me – the American teenager stand in for all the wrongs done to them. I learned how to be a warrior on that very day, how to commit myself to an existential immediacy of life and death struggle, surrounded by a blood thirsty hissing mob. I am alive, because I learned how to be a warrior when I was just 15 and I fought my way out going for the mobs leader – I knew I was going to kill him if I was going to die…. And my calm directed deadly intent blew an opening in the circle of hatred around me. My early life I spent in countries under-going regime change or where dark history was being made – e.g. in locales that fit the ancient Chinese curse of may you live in interesting times. I saw starving children with Kwashiorkor in Liberia when I was a five year old kid. Our world, in truth, when all the BS is stripped away, is a world of haves and have nothings, divided between warring spheres of influence, each ruled by largely occult and rarely mentioned elites who operate behind the superficial forms and ceremony that is kept front and center in order to distract and obfuscate. I grew up in the front line places where this great game was being executed on and it took me more than a decade to understand and work through all of the repercussions of the soul, that living through the kinds of intense experiences I did live through (my father seemed to always end up right in the middle of world’s dirty wars… and coup d'état working it from the “diplomatic” side of things). I have been to Afghanistan and to Libya… I swam amongst the Roman temple columns that rise up out of the Mediterranean sea in the ruins of Leptis Magna and galloped on the best stallions on Earth (the Afghan stallions before the Russians invaded). Unlike the many internet couch potato generals demanding that others go to war to die for them I have personally walked into the lion’s den of Arab nationalism and confronted it personally in the flesh,
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
On 1/25/2015 5:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemies carries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamists as victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't get you anywhere. WTF are you on about? Chris didn't say anything siding with the US's enemies or defending Islamic terrorists. You sound like one of Rush's ditto heads. Islamic terrorists are just that - terrorists. They have no more chance of conquering the U.S. or Western Europe than the North Vietnamese did. At a national level they are a public health problem like auto accidents and measles. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
Hee Hee! Still doing the Alinsky two-step? To be blunt, nobody did felatio better on Adolf's winkie back then, as your buddy, Joe Stalin did. Not, old man Kennedy, not even Neville Chamberlain performed as well. And Stalin ended up paying for it, or rather his half-murdered nation did. How will you expel me, or eradicate unwanted types like myself? Remember, those who fail to plan, plan to fail. :-D Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 3:58 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:12 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Like the Beatles once intoned, Carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you're not going to make it with anyone, anyhow. Your carrying ideological water for the jihad brothers may make the state department smile, but if, and when, the shit hits the fan, people will remember who defended the Jihadists.Think of Charles Lindbergh and the German American Bund, circa 1941. And, there's the likelihood that most people will say, At least under Bushie43, we felt safe. Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:35 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 10:55 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has beaten him out. I also opposed the Iraq war. I was a kid and did not ask to witness that war either, but life had other plans for me, and I lived through a piece of history. Perhaps if you stopped reading talking points from a Faux News script you might begin to make a little sense. I hate Fox news and always have, their imbecilic Tea Party buddies too. I'm more of a MSNBC - New York Times sort of guy. Okay, but you sound that way when you go all reflexive and attribute all the violence in the Middle east and that spills over here to “them” having been offended by some cartoon, when the problems and issues run much deeper than that. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon Your father was a diplomat?! Wow, I never would have guessed that, obviously you didn't inherit the diplomatic gene; it's not just me, you can't seem to get along with anybody around here. I get along just fine with most people… it is mainly just you and Mitch (aka spudboy) who is in a category all by himself. I think you are over generalizing things a little. But yeah I never aspired to be a “diplomat”… after all I grew up witnessing the reality of how the game is played. My father was the kind of diplomat by the way, who was debriefed, at the end of his career, for six months in Langley Virginia (there is US agency that is headquartered there). We were put up in an old Virginia farm house that had been owned by the first president George Washington. That should give you a clue who he worked for and what he did and how much dirt he knew. He ended his career in Honduras in the 1980s, during the time Ambassador Negroponte was there, for anyone who is aware of the actual history being written there during that period that should tell you everything you need to know. You may not like me, Well..., it doesn't exactly cement the bonds of friendship to express the wish that I get Alzheimer's disease and that only then after your brain has fully and completely rotted into a plaque ridden mush does nature finally do the kindness of killing you off. It just doesn't seem very friendly to say that an amusing thought would be me growing into a vegetative Alzheimer riddled sponge and that the thought still cracks me up with laughter It does not help when you
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
Brent, the selectivity of his outrage typifies who he blames who whom he hates. Its never that he and his droogies are anti-war, but they are anti-Us participation in any war you can think of. Beyond that, the Islamists are now trying for the death of 1000 cuts, little strikes, lone wolves, loaners, etc. Eventually they will be in a position to gain better weaponry and funding and planning. Do you think I am wrong? -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On 1/25/2015 5:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: That is anunusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were youthere as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemiescarries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamistsas victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't getyou anywhere. WTF are you on about? Chris didn't say anything siding with the US's enemies or defending Islamic terrorists. You sound like one of Rush's ditto heads. Islamic terrorists are just that - terrorists. They have no more chance of conquering the U.S. or Western Europe than the North Vietnamese did. At a national level they are a public health problem like auto accidents and measles. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
No, n-n-n-ooo! Bwah hah hah! Ranting, isn't reasoning, but it obviously satisfies you. My mission, as far as this mailing list goes, generally is to gain information on the possibilities of human transcendence. I am sort of focused on the attainment of the Singularity which depending on how things come about, if they even do? To give this possibility a chance. It will never have a chance if communists, like yourself, dominate in politics, academia, and the media. Your side empowers the Jihadists and because they fit into your ideology as victims, ignore what they do and say, in real life. In fact, your team really wants the jihadists to eliminate your common enemy, America, the middle class, free thinkers, religious conservatives, and anyone else who doesn't tow the party line, basically the same assholes who turned a blind eye to Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. When the Stalin-Hitler Pact of Steel was signed (1939-41), your side, worldwide, ceased its criticism of the Nazis, so as to align itself with Stalin. Woody Guthrie, for example, withdrew a song about Adolf that he had sung in 1938. This essentially is your side, your team, and the Jihadists are someone you sympathize with. Your side is killing off hope for any human future. This is sad for the whole world. You are simply another fanatic who knows what you feel, so thanks for the polarization. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 6:06 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:17 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Brent, the selectivity of his outrage typifies who he blames who whom he hates. Its never that he and his droogies are anti-war, but they are anti-Us participation in any war you can think of. Beyond that, the Islamists are now trying for the death of 1000 cuts, little strikes, lone wolves, loaners, etc. Eventually they will be in a position to gain better weaponry and funding and planning. Do you think I am wrong? You are an enemy of the ideals and principles the country I love was founded on, Mitch. You are an enemy of the republic who would subvert it from within and turn it into a One Party totalitarian state where opposition to the Party becomes a crime against the state. That is the sick ideology you represent and adhere to; it is foreign and inimical to the principles of the Republic. You may wrap yourself in the American flag, in fact I am quite sure that you do, but you are an enemy of the underlying principles of the Republic that flag represents. You are a troll on a mission to help bring about a clash of civilizations eternal state of war… fuck you and your mission, I despise cowards like you who demand other people go off to kill and die. Face it buddy, you are an un-American Fascist troll. -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On 1/25/2015 5:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemies carries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamists as victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't get you anywhere. WTF are you on about? Chris didn't say anything siding with the US's enemies or defending Islamic terrorists. You sound like one of Rush's ditto heads. Islamic terrorists are just that - terrorists. They have no more chance of conquering the U.S. or Western Europe than the North Vietnamese did. At a national level they are a public health problem like auto accidents and measles. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 3:56 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? No, not true. You basically want the US to fail, and collapse so that it will fall into the correct hands. You have zero criticism of Bamer's NSA, and you want us to sympathize with the Paris bombers. They are only doing it because of the evil Americans! Not really. What I am trying to subvert(?) is the unanswered propaganda spewed by yourself, with some occasional facts. You are adapting what you think is the language of conservatives and doing the old head-game romp. You remind me of the swinish, Michael Moore, who wrote a book some years ago, titled, Where's my Country, Dude! My instant reply to Moore, is that, Your country is 90 miles off Miami, known as communist Cuba. Your opinions are pretty much in synch, with Moore's, Chris. You make accusations, but I quote history. This is mere technique. How will you purge me, comrade? You never answered. Mitch, you sound increasingly like a single issue troll…. on a mission, to drag the US into an unending clash of civilizations global war, accusing anyone who opposes your call to war of treasonous activity. You define yourself as an enemy of America and do so, by your own actions and adherence to an alien anti-American fascist ideology that is inimical to the core values our Republic stands for. I don’t need to purge you Mitch – you have outed yourself. -Chris -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 5:58 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:13 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Hee Hee! Still doing the Alinsky two-step? To be blunt, nobody did felatio better on Adolf's winkie back then, as your buddy, Joe Stalin did. Not, old man Kennedy, not even Neville Chamberlain performed as well. And Stalin ended up paying for it, or rather his half-murdered nation did. How will you expel me, or eradicate unwanted types like myself? Remember, those who fail to plan, plan to fail. :-D Mitch, you are an ignorant troll and the values you represent are antithetical to the values that the United States was founded on; you are an agent of an alien totalitarian ideology; a brown shirt tool of the enemies of our republic. You are an enemy of the US constitution and the republic that was founded upon those ideals. Fascists like you are trying to subvert our Republic from within and destroy it from within. You, continuously insinuate that I am consorting with enemies of the republic (e.g. committing treasonous acts) and question my patriotism, because I dare to oppose the mad ideology you represent! As a patriot I consider it my sacred duty to oppose brown-shirt tools of an alien and hostile ideology seeking to subvert the country I hold dear from within; you oppose the foundational ideals of America; you adhere to an ideology that would subvert the US Constitution and the republic founded upon it, imposing a totalitarian one party rule. Mitch, it is you, not I, who is un-American. -Chris Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 3:58 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:12 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Like the Beatles once intoned, Carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you're not going to make it with anyone, anyhow. Your carrying ideological water for the jihad brothers may make the state department smile, but if, and when, the shit hits the fan, people will remember who defended the Jihadists.Think of Charles Lindbergh and the German American Bund, circa 1941. And, there's the likelihood that most people will say, At least under Bushie43, we felt safe. Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:35 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 3:46 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? No, n-n-n-ooo! Bwah hah hah! Ranting, isn't reasoning, but it obviously satisfies you. My mission, as far as this mailing list goes, generally is to gain information on the possibilities of human transcendence. I am sort of focused on the attainment of the Singularity which depending on how things come about, if they even do? To give this possibility a chance. It will never have a chance if communists, like yourself, dominate in politics, academia, and the media. Your side empowers the Jihadists and because they fit into your ideology as victims, ignore what they do and say, in real life. In fact, your team really wants the jihadists to eliminate your common enemy, America, the middle class, free thinkers, religious conservatives, and anyone else who doesn't tow the party line, basically the same assholes who turned a blind eye to Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. When the Stalin-Hitler Pact of Steel was signed (1939-41), your side, worldwide, ceased its criticism of the Nazis, so as to align itself with Stalin. Woody Guthrie, for example, withdrew a song about Adolf that he had sung in 1938. This essentially is your side, your team, and the Jihadists are someone you sympathize with. Your side is killing off hope for any human future. This is sad for the whole world. You are simply another fanatic who knows what you feel, so thanks for the polarization. My side? Come on give it a rest troll. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 6:06 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:17 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Brent, the selectivity of his outrage typifies who he blames who whom he hates. Its never that he and his droogies are anti-war, but they are anti-Us participation in any war you can think of. Beyond that, the Islamists are now trying for the death of 1000 cuts, little strikes, lone wolves, loaners, etc. Eventually they will be in a position to gain better weaponry and funding and planning. Do you think I am wrong? You are an enemy of the ideals and principles the country I love was founded on, Mitch. You are an enemy of the republic who would subvert it from within and turn it into a One Party totalitarian state where opposition to the Party becomes a crime against the state. That is the sick ideology you represent and adhere to; it is foreign and inimical to the principles of the Republic. You may wrap yourself in the American flag, in fact I am quite sure that you do, but you are an enemy of the underlying principles of the Republic that flag represents. You are a troll on a mission to help bring about a clash of civilizations eternal state of war… fuck you and your mission, I despise cowards like you who demand other people go off to kill and die. Face it buddy, you are an un-American Fascist troll. -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On 1/25/2015 5:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemies carries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamists as victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't get you anywhere. WTF are you on about? Chris didn't say anything siding with the US's enemies or defending Islamic terrorists. You sound like one of Rush's ditto heads. Islamic terrorists are just that - terrorists. They have no more chance of conquering the U.S. or Western Europe than the North Vietnamese did. At a national level they are a public health problem like auto accidents and measles. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Just stop defending the indefensible islamists and refrain from making excuses
for them. They are all adults and can speak for themselves. They believe what
the believe, and it is neither my fault, nor even yours. The world is now
slowly waking up to what is occuring, even to this day, the Japanese. I am
sorry that disagreeing with your holy self is considered trolling. But thats
what makes ball games. Deal with it.
-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 07:22 PM
Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
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style=font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serifFrom:/span/bspan
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href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a
[a
href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com?;mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com/a]
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bTo:/b a
href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a
bSubject:/b Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?/span/p
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p class=aolmail_MsoNormalspan
style=font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:blackNo,
n-n-n-ooo! Bwah hah hah! Ranting, isn't reasoning, but it obviously satisfies
you. My mission, as far as this mailing list goes, generally is to gain
information on the possibilities of human transcendence. I am sort of focused
on the attainment of the Singularity which depending on how things come about,
if they even do? To give this possibility a chance. It will never have a chance
if communists, like yourself, dominate in politics, academia, and the media.
Your side empowers the Jihadists and because they fit into your ideology as
victims, ignore what they do and say, in real life. In fact, your team really
wants the jihadists to eliminate your common enemy, America, the middle class,
free thinkers, religious conservatives, and anyone else who doesn't tow the
party line, basically the same assholes who turned a blind eye to Stalin, Mao,
and Pol Pot. When the Stalin-Hitler Pact of Steel was signed (1939-41), your
side, worldwide, ceased its criticism of the Nazis, so as to align itself with
Stalin. Woody Guthrie, for example, withdrew a song about Adolf that he had
sung in 1938./span/p
p class=aolmail_MsoNormalspan
style=font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black
/span/p
p class=aolmail_MsoNormalspan
style=font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:blackThis
essentially is your side, your team, and the Jihadists are someone you
sympathize with. Your side is killing off hope for any human future. This is
sad for the whole world. You are simply another fanatic who knows what you
Re: Manifesto Rex
On 1/25/2015 3:02 PM, Kim Jones wrote: Here is the big sell, then. You have to somehow demonstrate to the human race that we are a universal person. Best of British, old son! The math alone maybe will convince another mathematician, but without your guiding values, they will fail to see the big picture we are sketching here, and instead will prefer to slap you down for it! But that's exactly the problem. There are no guiding values in the math. Bruno holds values I share and so he reads into his theory nice ideas I approve of - but I don't think they are entailed by the math, or the logic, and I suspect they can't be. If you can't even derive physics and Darwinian evolution, how can you hope to derive anti-abortion laws or polygamy or legalizing heroin? Brent “How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will have been all of these.” --- George Washington Carver -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 4:40 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Well you make these declarative statements regarding what you feel is fit for this country, with your own list of who is naughty and nice, and yourself as chief judge of who is to be included, and who is to be cast out. This is so much like extreme Christian fundamentalists and your beloved, Islamists, that I wonder how drawn you might have been to tyranical ideologies. This, would explain a lot. It may come as a surprise to you but in a democratic system people have differences of opinion and do not always agree on policy. However when a yahoo like you begins to slander anyone who opposes their policy by accusing them of supporting the enemy – e.g. of committing treasonous acts – you have left the big tent of democratic debate and have instead chosen to support totalitarianism. Your support of the imposition of a totalitarian system – to crush dissent and a diversity of opinions -- makes you a self-declared enemy of the republic. It is by your actions and by your calumny of anyone who dares to disagree with your fanatical advocacy for an endless war that you define yourself as adhering to an extremist totalitarian political ideology. Crushing dissent is not the way of democracy; it is the preference of totalitarians the world over (and it does not matter much what philosophy they putatively espouse, it is by their actions and kind of argument that they can be recognized. You share more with ISIS and the world view of hatred that drives them than you do with the ideals of the Age of Enlightenment that are enshrined in the US constitution and recognized as being the founding principles upon which our republic is based. I have as little love of the Islamists as I have for you Mitch… you are cut from the same cloth. Both you and ISIS espouse totalitarian solutions. You are far more like them than you may realize. You hate them, but like ISIS, you seek to impose a totalitarian monolithic order in order to mount a clash of civilizations endless war. You are just like the psychopath ISIS thugs and criminals in this crucial sense. You are an enemy of our Republic because you choose to subvert the ideals upon which it is based. Instead I support our Constitution and the Republic it is the basis for. This is the basic difference between what you believe and what I believe. I fully expect you to continue with your calumny and call me all manner of things that I am not… for you to continue to try to insinuate that I some kind of traitor who supports terrorist groups (who you darkly suggest will be dealt with once your side sweeps to power) This continued and long standing behavior of yours Mitch, is why I view you as an enemy of our Republic and of the Constitution upon which it is based. I am here and I am not going anywhere, and I will not let you intimidate me into silence. -Chris -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 07:21 PM Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 3:56 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? No, not true. You basically want the US to fail, and collapse so that it will fall into the correct hands. You have zero criticism of Bamer's NSA, and you want us to sympathize with the Paris bombers. They are only doing it because of the evil Americans! Not really. What I am trying to subvert(?) is the unanswered propaganda spewed by yourself, with some occasional facts. You are adapting what you think is the language of conservatives and doing the old head-game romp. You remind me of the swinish, Michael Moore, who wrote a book some years ago, titled, Where's my Country, Dude! My instant reply to Moore, is that, Your country is 90 miles off Miami, known as communist Cuba. Your opinions are pretty much in synch, with Moore's, Chris. You make accusations, but I quote history. This is mere technique. How will you purge me, comrade? You never answered. Mitch, you sound increasingly like a single issue troll…. on a mission, to drag the US into an unending clash of civilizations global war, accusing anyone who opposes your call to war of treasonous activity. You define yourself as an enemy of America and do so, by your own actions and adherence to an alien anti-American fascist ideology that is inimical to the core values our Republic stands for. I don’t need to purge you Mitch –
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Platonist Guitar Cowboy Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 5:30 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 1:51 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Just stop defending the indefensible islamists and refrain from making excuses for them. They are all adults and can speak for themselves. They believe what the believe, and it is neither my fault, nor even yours. The world is now slowly waking up to what is occuring, even to this day, the Japanese. I am sorry that disagreeing with your holy self is considered trolling. But thats what makes ball games. Deal with it. What makes the ball game is people sowing fear and reaping aggression on all sides by committing violent acts for political and economic gain, which is a threat. It's perhaps a fine line between recognizing this fact and falling prey to the PR ploy as recognizing the fact brings our own political lines, which furthers the ploy's objective, into play. Brent made a good point: compare violence to potency of other threats. I'd add cui bono, obligatory grain of salt, and maybe we don't need cartoons to replace our thinking or humor. PGC It would behoove us to at least recognize that the roots of the problems in the middle east run deeper than offense at a cartoon. It is a complex mess with deep historical roots going back to the Ottoman period and on through the period of French and British colonial rule. There are no easy solutions and the problem is not going away. In order to manage the situation, as it has become, we need to at the very least have a clear and comprehensive understanding of the issues and forces that are driving resurgent medievalism in the middle east (but not only there… there is a surge of the medievalist mind in the USA, and I imagine to some degree in Western Europe as well) -Chris -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
No, not true. You basically want the US to fail, and collapse so that it will fall into the correct hands. You have zero criticism of Bamer's NSA, and you want us to sympathize with the Paris bombers. They are only doing it because of the evil Americans! Not really. What I am trying to subvert(?) is the unanswered propaganda spewed by yourself, with some occasional facts. You are adapting what you think is the language of conservatives and doing the old head-game romp. You remind me of the swinish, Michael Moore, who wrote a book some years ago, titled, Where's my Country, Dude! My instant reply to Moore, is that, Your country is 90 miles off Miami, known as communist Cuba. Your opinions are pretty much in synch, with Moore's, Chris. You make accusations, but I quote history. This is mere technique. How will you purge me, comrade? You never answered. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 5:58 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:13 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Hee Hee! Still doing the Alinsky two-step? To be blunt, nobody did felatio better on Adolf's winkie back then, as your buddy, Joe Stalin did. Not, old man Kennedy, not even Neville Chamberlain performed as well. And Stalin ended up paying for it, or rather his half-murdered nation did. How will you expel me, or eradicate unwanted types like myself? Remember, those who fail to plan, plan to fail. :-D Mitch, you are an ignorant troll and the values you represent are antithetical to the values that the United States was founded on; you are an agent of an alien totalitarian ideology; a brown shirt tool of the enemies of our republic. You are an enemy of the US constitution and the republic that was founded upon those ideals. Fascists like you are trying to subvert our Republic from within and destroy it from within. You, continuously insinuate that I am consorting with enemies of the republic (e.g. committing treasonous acts) and question my patriotism, because I dare to oppose the mad ideology you represent! As a patriot I consider it my sacred duty to oppose brown-shirt tools of an alien and hostile ideology seeking to subvert the country I hold dear from within; you oppose the foundational ideals of America; you adhere to an ideology that would subvert the US Constitution and the republic founded upon it, imposing a totalitarian one party rule. Mitch, it is you, not I, who is un-American. -Chris Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 3:58 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:12 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Like the Beatles once intoned, Carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you're not going to make it with anyone, anyhow. Your carrying ideological water for the jihad brothers may make the state department smile, but if, and when, the shit hits the fan, people will remember who defended the Jihadists.Think of Charles Lindbergh and the German American Bund, circa 1941. And, there's the likelihood that most people will say, At least under Bushie43, we felt safe. Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:35 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 10:55 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has
Re: Manifesto Rex
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 5:27 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Insofar as they are expressed in words it seems that logical contradictions are beyond belief. I don't think so. If it's pleasant to believe in X and it's also pleasant to believe in Y I think it's possible for some people to believe in both even if they are logically contradictory, even if they know they're logically contradictory. I don't even think it's very unusual, they just say God works in mysterious ways or something equivalent and continue to believe that black is white. There is a name for this quality of mind, faith, and some people think it's the greatest of all virtues. I don't. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
Well you make these declarative statements regarding what you feel is fit for
this country, with your own list of who is naughty and nice, and yourself as
chief judge of who is to be included, and who is to be cast out. This is so
much like extreme Christian fundamentalists and your beloved, Islamists, that I
wonder how drawn you might have been to tyranical ideologies. This, would
explain a lot.
-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 07:21 PM
Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
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[a
href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com?;mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com/a]
bSent:/b Sunday, January 25, 2015 3:56 PM
bTo:/b a
href=mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;everything-list@googlegroups.com/a
bSubject:/b Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?/span/p
p class=aolmail_MsoNormal /p
div
p class=aolmail_MsoNormalspan
style=font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:blackNo, not
true. You basically want the US to fail, and collapse so that it will fall into
the correct hands. You have zero criticism of Bamer's NSA, and you want us to
sympathize with the Paris bombers. They are only doing it because of the evil
Americans! Not really. What I am trying to subvert(?) is the unanswered
propaganda spewed by yourself, with some occasional facts. You are adapting
what you think is the language of conservatives and doing the old head-game
romp. You remind me of the swinish, Michael Moore, who wrote a book some years
ago, titled, Where's my Country, Dude! My instant reply to Moore, is that,
Your country is 90 miles off Miami, known as communist Cuba. Your opinions
are pretty much in synch, with Moore's, Chris. You make accusations, but I
quote history. This is mere technique. How will you purge me, comrade? You
never answered. /span/p
p class=aolmail_MsoNormalspan
style=font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black
/span/p
p class=aolmail_MsoNormalspan
style=font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:#1F497DMitch,
you sound increasingly like a single issue troll…. on a mission, to drag the
US into an unending clash of civilizations global war, accusing anyone who
opposes your call to war of treasonous activity. You define yourself as an
enemy of America and do so, by your own actions and adherence to an alien
anti-American fascist ideology that is inimical to the core values our Republic
stands for./span/p
p class=aolmail_MsoNormalspan
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 1:51 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Just stop defending the indefensible islamists and refrain from making excuses for them. They are all adults and can speak for themselves. They believe what the believe, and it is neither my fault, nor even yours. The world is now slowly waking up to what is occuring, even to this day, the Japanese. I am sorry that disagreeing with your holy self is considered trolling. But thats what makes ball games. Deal with it. What makes the ball game is people sowing fear and reaping aggression on all sides by committing violent acts for political and economic gain, which is a threat. It's perhaps a fine line between recognizing this fact and falling prey to the PR ploy as recognizing the fact brings our own political lines, which furthers the ploy's objective, into play. Brent made a good point: compare violence to potency of other threats. I'd add cui bono, obligatory grain of salt, and maybe we don't need cartoons to replace our thinking or humor. PGC -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 4:52 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Just stop defending the indefensible islamists and refrain from making excuses for them. They are all adults and can speak for themselves. They believe what the believe, and it is neither my fault, nor even yours. The world is now slowly waking up to what is occuring, even to this day, the Japanese. I am sorry that disagreeing with your holy self is considered trolling. But thats what makes ball games. Deal with it. By all means disagree with me, but when you begin to suggest I am a traitor because I disagree with your insane desire for a global war you have crossed a line -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 07:22 PM Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 3:46 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? No, n-n-n-ooo! Bwah hah hah! Ranting, isn't reasoning, but it obviously satisfies you. My mission, as far as this mailing list goes, generally is to gain information on the possibilities of human transcendence. I am sort of focused on the attainment of the Singularity which depending on how things come about, if they even do? To give this possibility a chance. It will never have a chance if communists, like yourself, dominate in politics, academia, and the media. Your side empowers the Jihadists and because they fit into your ideology as victims, ignore what they do and say, in real life. In fact, your team really wants the jihadists to eliminate your common enemy, America, the middle class, free thinkers, religious conservatives, and anyone else who doesn't tow the party line, basically the same assholes who turned a blind eye to Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. When the Stalin-Hitler Pact of Steel was signed (1939-41), your side, worldwide, ceased its criticism of the Nazis, so as to align itself with Stalin. Woody Guthrie, for example, withdrew a song about Adolf that he had sung in 1938. This essentially is your side, your team, and the Jihadists are someone you sympathize with. Your side is killing off hope for any human future. This is sad for the whole world. You are simply another fanatic who knows what you feel, so thanks for the polarization. My side? Come on give it a rest troll. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 6:06 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 2:17 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Brent, the selectivity of his outrage typifies who he blames who whom he hates. Its never that he and his droogies are anti-war, but they are anti-Us participation in any war you can think of. Beyond that, the Islamists are now trying for the death of 1000 cuts, little strikes, lone wolves, loaners, etc. Eventually they will be in a position to gain better weaponry and funding and planning. Do you think I am wrong? You are an enemy of the ideals and principles the country I love was founded on, Mitch. You are an enemy of the republic who would subvert it from within and turn it into a One Party totalitarian state where opposition to the Party becomes a crime against the state. That is the sick ideology you represent and adhere to; it is foreign and inimical to the principles of the Republic. You may wrap yourself in the American flag, in fact I am quite sure that you do, but you are an enemy of the underlying principles of the Republic that flag represents. You are a troll on a mission to help bring about a clash of civilizations eternal state of war… fuck you and your mission, I despise cowards like you who demand other people go off to kill and die. Face it buddy, you are an un-American Fascist troll. -Original Message- From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On 1/25/2015 5:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
Chris, forget Goebbels, think instead of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals (your team) and yes I know it well, My guess is you were trying for Alinsky's #4, which says' Ridicule is man's most potent weapon, there's no defense against it. But it didn't work upon me-so far, that is. So it must be #6, select your target, freeze it, and don't let up. Alinsky was great. On the nature of Islam, think of when Stalin and Hitler were buddies with their pact of steel (1939) and knowing that whatever bastards the democracies were then, nazis and commies were far more murderous. The Muslims are victims of their laws (sharia). They are not baddies because of us, anymore than the Central African Republic is in trouble because of French and Belgian colonialism in 1890. Think mass murder highlighted only in Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Maybe 8 million worked to death over 20 years. Its almost 100 years later, and I won't hate the Modern Belgians for it. Let Islam own its own failures-they are not children. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:03 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 5:26 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? You are justifying the hatred and aggressions by Islamists against the rest of us. This is a big mistake. One counter example of Islamist murders against Christian Filipinos, Buddhist Thais, Hindus in India and Kashmir, Islamist aggression in Ceylon, in Sudan, in Nigeria, etc. These nations have zero to do with western imperialists. Here, at least, there's no cause and effect. If Algerian murderers in Paris kill magazine editors and Jews, who are they avenging? Is it Muslim honor, the Algerians, Palestinians, Syrians, the US president's negotiation with Iran because they are Shia vs ISIS Sunnis??? You make excuses for them to justify their actions. In essence you support them and their actions, This is fine with me. Each to their own. A lying ugly response that is straight out of Goebel’s recipe in his Nazi cookbook of how to do propaganda. You make evil insinuations about my motives and attempt to equate any opposition to your mad desire for a clash of civilizations with support for the terrorists. That is both an evil and a dishonest thing to do… loser. Here is an appropriate Goebels quote that describes exactly what you are doing: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” The big difference is that he was the Minister of propaganda of an ascendant Nazi regime, while you are merely some psychopath couch potato wannabe warrior pining to see some more shock and awe on light up television screen. A fucking evil clown is what you are Mitch -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 10:02 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] I am uncomfortable with the plaster of evil myself, since what it means to everyone is too vague. I would define the Jihadis as aggressive, malign, expansionism. Did western nations do this until recently? Hell, yes. The point is not to paper over the aggression done to expand the faith and enable a caliphate. Not to empower these aggressors, these new colonials. What about remediations for all this, I have a couple of vague ideas on what may work, circulated here before. Baring this or some other ideas, I suppose we all must play the hand we're dealt. Perhaps if we stopped invading their lands… and bombing them into freedom… torturing them into adopting Western “democratic values” they might not hate us as much as they do. We are witnessing the bumper crop sowed by the neocon inspired operation Iraqi freedom… ISIS is the bastard child of the last generational war. More bombs… and certainly a clash of civilizations end game is not a solution; it is just a horribly expensive recipe for continuous war. A cui bono? Not me, and that’s for fucking sure! Excuse me, if I piss all over your sick puppy, pathological desire for eternal war! (you who has never ever seen what war is up close and personal…
Re: Manifesto Rex
On 24 Jan 2015, at 19:50, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2015 1:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In fact it is a benign move to bet that we are the same universal person (S4Grz(PA) or S4Grz(M))(*) with diverging experiences, like the W and M guy. Is it? Does that apply to all sentient beings? Is it a benign bet that I'm the same person as the fanatic from ISIL that is trying to kill me? I'd rather bet we're different and kill him first than bet it's indifferent who survives, because it's no indifferent to ME. I think you have over intellectualized consciousness. It is not only logic, it is also values. Values is not consciousness, but is conscience, and I agree they are related. In front of the guy who want to kill you, there is no problem that you defend yourself, indeed you should. It is still better if you don't kill him/her, and get him/her sent in jail or in some hospital. Saying it is you, does not mean, that you agree on the acts, it just remind you that you-too, in some environment, genetical, cultural, historical, perhaps victim of lies and collective brainwashing, can become. Truth is in all (universal) heads, it contains the Good, but also the Bad. Values are important, and indeed the only real things for the Platonicians. But this does not mean we must change the results. I study the consequences of a common assumption, and assuming a universal person is natural in this context. Also, if the conception of that idea was more widespread; it might limit the attempt of some people to annoy or kill other people, given that they would be more likely able to suspect being, maybe, those other people when put in a different general situation. It helps from going from: Hitler is the bad. We won against Hitler the bad. The good has won, cheers and tra-la-la ... To I have made a big cruel mistake, I succeeded in stopping it, how can I prevent to do it again, ... But that is not normative, only it might encourage the spiritual experiences (be it with music, or whatever) which can help people to recognize themselves on a vaster spectrum. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:12 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? Like the Beatles once intoned, Carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you're not going to make it with anyone, anyhow. Your carrying ideological water for the jihad brothers may make the state department smile, but if, and when, the shit hits the fan, people will remember who defended the Jihadists.Think of Charles Lindbergh and the German American Bund, circa 1941. And, there's the likelihood that most people will say, At least under Bushie43, we felt safe. Go to hell brown shirt, your kind has no place in America. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:35 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 10:55 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has beaten him out. I also opposed the Iraq war. I was a kid and did not ask to witness that war either, but life had other plans for me, and I lived through a piece of history. Perhaps if you stopped reading talking points from a Faux News script you might begin to make a little sense. I hate Fox news and always have, their imbecilic Tea Party buddies too. I'm more of a MSNBC - New York Times sort of guy. Okay, but you sound that way when you go all reflexive and attribute all the violence in the Middle east and that spills over here to “them” having been offended by some cartoon, when the problems and issues run much deeper than that. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon Your father was a diplomat?! Wow, I never would have guessed that, obviously you didn't inherit the diplomatic gene; it's not just me, you can't seem to get along with anybody around here. I get along just fine with most people… it is mainly just you and Mitch (aka spudboy) who is in a category all by himself. I think you are over generalizing things a little. But yeah I never aspired to be a “diplomat”… after all I grew up witnessing the reality of how the game is played. My father was the kind of diplomat by the way, who was debriefed, at the end of his career, for six months in Langley Virginia (there is US agency that is headquartered there). We were put up in an old Virginia farm house that had been owned by the first president George Washington. That should give you a clue who he worked for and what he did and how much dirt he knew. He ended his career in Honduras in the 1980s, during the time Ambassador Negroponte was there, for anyone who is aware of the actual history being written there during that period that should tell you everything you need to know. You may not like me, Well..., it doesn't exactly cement the bonds of friendship to express the wish that I get Alzheimer's disease and that only then after your brain has fully and completely rotted into a plaque ridden mush does nature finally do the kindness of killing you off. It just doesn't seem very friendly to say that an amusing thought would be me growing into a vegetative Alzheimer riddled sponge and that the thought still cracks me up with laughter It does not help when you call me dumber than dog shit either John… please don’t make it out as if this has been a one sided stream of abuse. You have dished your fair share out at me whenever we disagree. Look I apologize about that remark to you – it was pointedly mean and carefully aimed at you, I do not actually wish that for you and even though I find you incredibly abrasive I can also see that you are an intelligent person. If you can accept my apology and move on from that. Perhaps you could also apologize for all the insulting words you hurled at me and were hurling at me before, during and after I said those mean things about you? -Chris John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 10:55 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has beaten him out. I also opposed the Iraq war. I was a kid and did not ask to witness that war either, but life had other plans for me, and I lived through a piece of history. Perhaps if you stopped reading talking points from a Faux News script you might begin to make a little sense. I hate Fox news and always have, their imbecilic Tea Party buddies too. I'm more of a MSNBC - New York Times sort of guy. Okay, but you sound that way when you go all reflexive and attribute all the violence in the Middle east and that spills over here to “them” having been offended by some cartoon, when the problems and issues run much deeper than that. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon Your father was a diplomat?! Wow, I never would have guessed that, obviously you didn't inherit the diplomatic gene; it's not just me, you can't seem to get along with anybody around here. I get along just fine with most people… it is mainly just you and Mitch (aka spudboy) who is in a category all by himself. I think you are over generalizing things a little. But yeah I never aspired to be a “diplomat”… after all I grew up witnessing the reality of how the game is played. My father was the kind of diplomat by the way, who was debriefed, at the end of his career, for six months in Langley Virginia (there is US agency that is headquartered there). We were put up in an old Virginia farm house that had been owned by the first president George Washington. That should give you a clue who he worked for and what he did and how much dirt he knew. He ended his career in Honduras in the 1980s, during the time Ambassador Negroponte was there, for anyone who is aware of the actual history being written there during that period that should tell you everything you need to know. You may not like me, Well..., it doesn't exactly cement the bonds of friendship to express the wish that I get Alzheimer's disease and that only then after your brain has fully and completely rotted into a plaque ridden mush does nature finally do the kindness of killing you off. It just doesn't seem very friendly to say that an amusing thought would be me growing into a vegetative Alzheimer riddled sponge and that the thought still cracks me up with laughter It does not help when you call me dumber than dog shit either John… please don’t make it out as if this has been a one sided stream of abuse. You have dished your fair share out at me whenever we disagree. Look I apologize about that remark to you – it was pointedly mean and carefully aimed at you, I do not actually wish that for you and even though I find you incredibly abrasive I can also see that you are an intelligent person. If you can accept my apology and move on from that. Perhaps you could also apologize for all the insulting words you hurled at me and were hurling at me before, during and after I said those mean things about you? -Chris John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
Not that it matters but Fox News is a solid US Chamber of Commerce network than a tea party network. Both political parties are owned by huge economic groups. The dems are owned by warren buffet, soros, tom steyer, the blackstone group, gates, etc. The reps are owned, by the US chamber of commerce. Know that these billionaires economic interests do not benefit the middle class. But, please note, there is no civil disturbance because of this-so it must be hopeless. -Original Message- From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 1:55 pm Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has beaten him out. I also opposed the Iraq war. Perhaps if you stopped reading talking points from a Faux News script you might begin to make a little sense. I hate Fox news and always have, their imbecilic Tea Party buddies too. I'm more of a MSNBC - New York Times sort of guy. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon Your father was a diplomat?! Wow, I never would have guessed that, obviously you didn't inherit the diplomatic gene; it's not just me, you can't seem to get along with anybody around here. You may not like me, Well..., it doesn't exactly cement the bonds of friendship to express the wish that I get Alzheimer's disease and that only then after your brain has fully and completely rotted into a plaque ridden mush does nature finally do the kindness of killing you off. It just doesn't seem very friendly to say that an amusing thought would be me growing into a vegetative Alzheimer riddled sponge and that the thought still cracks me up with laughter John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
I kind of like the fascist clown for some reason, which is maybe because it reminds me of DC comics, the Joker? If I am a fascist, should I let the Jihadists kill us? Is this what gets me out of your typication? If so, its not worth it, and I'd say this for nearly, everyone. Being nice to Islamists is a sure way of getting people killed, and most of the Uma are Islamic Triumphalists, aka, Islamists. There is not a whole lot of people on their team that someone who likes freedom can sympathize with. Neonazis are far less dangerous to me, and the US, then progressives holding power of office, in academia, the so called news. White power belongs where it does its best, on Jerry Springer. Although there was an article a week ago about a neonazi who became a hacker and banged some feminist freak. Her takeaway was that according to the nazi, she leaned how to hack accounts of male antifeminists. Your team is passing domestic policy and foreign affairs, so I am more troubled by your side, then Herr Goosestepper. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:14 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] That is an unusual upbringing alright. How did you wind up in Nam, were you there as a Young Communist volunteer, or was it daddy was a military consultant, and took us there? It sounds atypical and therefore, peculiar. Your siding with the US's physical enemies carries its own baggage, as is your defending of the Islamists as victims, and the west as aggressors. Excuse making won't get you anywhere. My guess is that it is likely that when the Islamists strike again in the US, there will be a large scale public reaction. Remember 9-11? Think of the quietude of most progressives back then...silence. This time I see a day of rage, directed against the enablers and sympathizers of the Islamists. But that day may never happen, in the sense that only lone wolf attacks are doable. But if the worse happens, the supporters of Jihad, even though they are atheist - socialists will be focused on. Don't change your mind, but be aware, at least. My siding with who? … you are a lying sack of insinuating shit… a brown shirt fascist Tea Party freak… you and your filthy Nazi ideology have no place in America; you are antithetical to everything this country stands for evil fascist clown. -Chris -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 24, 2015 11:36 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 7:43 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Have you ever lived through shock and awe.. in real life, not the remote digitally delivered sound and light show you see on CNN, but the real live terrifying horrendous fucking thing? No. Have you? Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager when my eyes were opened up wide to the true meaning and reality of war. I experienced the hatred up close and personal; I was there right up (13 days) to the end and witnessed the implosion of a regime. I have seen people executed in front of me and had M16s hot from just being fired pointed at me and seen my life flash by. I have seen napalm burned wrecks of human beings living on sidewalks as refugees, with nowhere to piss and no hope to live for… dead empty eyes of war depression…. I have seen lepers their cheeks eaten away by the disease… heard the bombs and saw the green flares parachute down followed by the flashes and booms…. Night after night, after night…. Seen convoys of coffins… two per truck, returning the dead. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon at that time, as the entire system imploded in those end of regime days. I have been personally the object of the hatred and had my head really bloodied in a big circle of hissing pure venomous hatred directed at me – the American teenager stand in for all the wrongs done to them. I learned how to be a warrior on that very day, how to commit myself to an existential immediacy of life and death struggle, surrounded by a blood thirsty hissing mob. I am alive, because I learned how to be a warrior when I was just 15 and I
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
Like the Beatles once intoned, Carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you're not going to make it with anyone, anyhow. Your carrying ideological water for the jihad brothers may make the state department smile, but if, and when, the shit hits the fan, people will remember who defended the Jihadists.Think of Charles Lindbergh and the German American Bund, circa 1941. And, there's the likelihood that most people will say, At least under Bushie43, we felt safe. -Original Message- From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 25, 2015 2:35 pm Subject: RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 10:55 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Yes, in fact, I very much have! I grew up witnessing it! Saigon 1975. I left 13 days before Saigon fell on the last non-military jet to leave. I was a teenager I had oppose the Vietnam War and thought it idiotic since about 1965, through pure luck I managed to avoid the draft and I would have never dreamed of volunteering. For years because of the war I said that Lyndon Johnson was the worst president in my lifetime, but now I think George W Bush has beaten him out. I also opposed the Iraq war. I was a kid and did not ask to witness that war either, but life had other plans for me, and I lived through a piece of history. Perhaps if you stopped reading talking points from a Faux News script you might begin to make a little sense. I hate Fox news and always have, their imbecilic Tea Party buddies too. I'm more of a MSNBC - New York Times sort of guy. Okay, but you sound that way when you go all reflexive and attribute all the violence in the Middle east and that spills over here to “them” having been offended by some cartoon, when the problems and issues run much deeper than that. I heard what was said at my father’s all night curfew parties, by the “diplomats” who were operating in Saigon Your father was a diplomat?! Wow, I never would have guessed that, obviously you didn't inherit the diplomatic gene; it's not just me, you can't seem to get along with anybody around here. I get along just fine with most people… it is mainly just you and Mitch (aka spudboy) who is in a category all by himself. I think you are over generalizing things a little. But yeah I never aspired to be a “diplomat”… after all I grew up witnessing the reality of how the game is played. My father was the kind of diplomat by the way, who was debriefed, at the end of his career, for six months in Langley Virginia (there is US agency that is headquartered there). We were put up in an old Virginia farm house that had been owned by the first president George Washington. That should give you a clue who he worked for and what he did and how much dirt he knew. He ended his career in Honduras in the 1980s, during the time Ambassador Negroponte was there, for anyone who is aware of the actual history being written there during that period that should tell you everything you need to know. You may not like me, Well..., it doesn't exactly cement the bonds of friendship to express the wish that I get Alzheimer's disease and that only then after your brain has fully and completely rotted into a plaque ridden mush does nature finally do the kindness of killing you off. It just doesn't seem very friendly to say that an amusing thought would be me growing into a vegetative Alzheimer riddled sponge and that the thought still cracks me up with laughter It does not help when you call me dumber than dog shit either John… please don’t make it out as if this has been a one sided stream of abuse. You have dished your fair share out at me whenever we disagree. Look I apologize about that remark to you – it was pointedly mean and carefully aimed at you, I do not actually wish that for you and even though I find you incredibly abrasive I can also see that you are an intelligent person. If you can accept my apology and move on from that. Perhaps you could also apologize for all the insulting words you hurled at me and were hurling at me before, during and after I said those mean things about you? -Chris John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more
Re: Manifesto Rex
On 24 Jan 2015, at 15:54, Rex Allen wrote: On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 22 Jan 2015, at 05:58, Rex Allen wrote: I think my main problem with platonism is that I don't see why a mathematical universe would generate beings who then develop true beliefs about the mathematical nature of the universe. But Gödel + Church + Kleene + Post + Turing + Matiyazevich... discovery *is* the discovery that just the arithmetical reality if full of entities, machines, and non-machines, which struggle to understand what happens, and develop true and false beliefs around the subject. But does arithmetical reality exist outside of the human mind? I would tend to say - no. The human mind entertains concepts. This is one of them. The human mind is finite. The arithmetical reality is infinite. Since Gödel's 1931, we know (assuming computationalism, that is that we are finite creatures) that we can only scratch the surface. Gödel's theorem signs the end of the reductionist conception of the machines and the finite. This is proved. What is not proved is that they are conscious, but they need to be if you assume that there is no magic (actual infinities, non-local 3p influences, 3p indeterminacies) playing in the brain. So there is no way that that GR+QFT+IC can (in principle) mechanistically explain observed human behavior and mathematical ability? There is one way: by deriving GR+QFT+IC from 2+2=4 Co,, or from Kxy = x Sxyz = xz(yz). If you don't do that, you biased the measure by adding magic relation, non locally Turing emulable. We are confronted to such relations, so there is no need to add complexities, for preventing a possible solution to a problem. I am not referring to the first person subjective experience. Just the third person observed behavior. It is not that easy to separate them. The physical third person is in fact first person plural, if we take mechanism seriously enough. Which was also my problem with physicalism - in that why would a random (i.e., not specially chosen) set of physical laws and initial conditions lead to the development of beings who are then able to correctly (or even approximately) discover those physical laws and initial conditions. If we say that GR+QFT+IC+Evo is true - this is a problem, since evolution seems to only care about survival and reproduction - not truth. So how do evolved beings like us arrive at a true theory like that? But a scientist will never say that anything is true. He will just say what he believes in, knowing he might be wrong. We can only hope getting close to the truth, but even in arithmetic, lies can be consistent, and truth can depart from wishes, etc. However - if we only say that GR+QFT+IC+Evo is *useful* (and not true) - this is more consistent - since it also predicts that evolved beings will develop useful (i.e., survival-enabling) theories. usefulness would reduce science to instrumentalism, and then the question which will be forbid will be instrument for what? Torture? Correct. I like instrumentalism. Instrument for what? For whatever we want. As a tool for accomplishing our goals. Whatever they may be. What is a goal, and is the instrument for, if there is no conception of some reality. Anyway, I don't do philosophy, and I don't buy computationalism or anything. I explain the situation, so to speak. Don't confuse the theories/instruments, and what is lighted up by those theories and instrument, partially. But you are right, truth is not always useful, but lies makes things harder, and should be avoided in most situations, I think. I think I understand why you think consciousness precedes logic and arithmetic. I think that this is coherent with the first person view of the universal person, as consciousness is atemporal at that level, and is the origin of all possible consciousness content. But that is still an inside view. That general consciousness is the atemporal consciousness of the löbian machine, and perhaps even just the universal one. It is something approximated by t? t It is an unconscious Am I consistent? in consistent situation. It is also a semantical fixed point. It provides the meaning of meaning somehow, and let the senses filtered it into consistent scenarios. I tend to think that, like information, meaning is a difference that makes a difference. Which is to say, meaning is a felt difference that makes a felt difference. Which is to say, meaning is a difference in conscious experience that feels like it makes a difference to conscious experience. Which is to say, that our consciousness is just a web of felt differences that feel like they have some significance. As to what accounts to all of these differences - a useful way of looking at it is is that they are a product of
Re: Why is there something rather than nothing? From quantum theory to dialectics?
On 1/24/2015 11:57 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote: I pity those observers, and feel that no matter how many resources they brought to bear in trying to discover the meaning of this mysterious numeric communication coming through their inter-dimensional portal… that they would never be able to figure the actual simple formula / program that produced the petabytes ^ petabytes ^ petabytes ^ petabytes (ad infinitum) of data in their transmission. Maybe some would build a religion around the mystery… who knows, more likely the portal would become abandoned after the last researcher was driven insane trying to discover the meaning. This the theme of several stories by Stanislaw Lem: /Solaris, His Master's Voice/ Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 3:08 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Platonist Guitar Cowboy *Sent:* Sunday, January 25, 2015 5:30 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 1:51 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Just stop defending the indefensible islamists and refrain from making excuses for them. They are all adults and can speak for themselves. They believe what the believe, and it is neither my fault, nor even yours. The world is now slowly waking up to what is occuring, even to this day, the Japanese. I am sorry that disagreeing with your holy self is considered trolling. But thats what makes ball games. Deal with it. What makes the ball game is people sowing fear and reaping aggression on all sides by committing violent acts for political and economic gain, which is a threat. It's perhaps a fine line between recognizing this fact and falling prey to the PR ploy as recognizing the fact brings our own political lines, which furthers the ploy's objective, into play. Brent made a good point: compare violence to potency of other threats. I'd add cui bono, obligatory grain of salt, and maybe we don't need cartoons to replace our thinking or humor. PGC It would behoove us to at least recognize that the roots of the problems in the middle east run deeper than offense at a cartoon. I used cartoon in less than literal sense. It is a complex mess with deep historical roots going back to the Ottoman period and on through the period of French and British colonial rule. There are no easy solutions and the problem is not going away. What? You don't think if I post my position a few more dozen times, that the problem will not disappear from the global stage? Dear Internet of grand opinionage, I am disappointed in you! Sincerely, PGC In order to manage the situation, as it has become, we need to at the very least have a clear and comprehensive understanding of the issues and forces that are driving resurgent medievalism in the middle east (but not only there… there is a surge of the medievalist mind in the USA, and I imagine to some degree in Western Europe as well) Freedom includes by definition the right for everybody else to see/express things their way. Therefore it is not a simple, clear matter to fight for freedom of speech, as any form of battle/competition/conflict includes assumption of restricting/denying/limiting the freedom of the opponent, which leads to contradiction. Hence the laws against defamation. True to form of factual concreteness fetishes, we believe that power will take care of a power problem. Power marks difference/imbalance relative to some value(s), and using some form of it to eliminate lesser form is dubious but plausible; if done minimizing harm at maximum of levels. The truth that western liberal believes 'will establish itself over time' is problematic in one key sense: *when* *exactly *does the truth of freedom arrive (kinda sounds like waiting for messiah figure) and should we do something about the roads collapsing here, economic/political/theological differences, the people being hurt over there, or the laws and prohibition trampling freedom for security indefinitely; if so what? And why do we need all these lawyers if everything is clear? ;-) PGC -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon?
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Platonist Guitar Cowboy Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 6:35 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 3:08 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Platonist Guitar Cowboy Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 5:30 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Why was nobody murdered because of this cartoon? On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 1:51 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Just stop defending the indefensible islamists and refrain from making excuses for them. They are all adults and can speak for themselves. They believe what the believe, and it is neither my fault, nor even yours. The world is now slowly waking up to what is occuring, even to this day, the Japanese. I am sorry that disagreeing with your holy self is considered trolling. But thats what makes ball games. Deal with it. What makes the ball game is people sowing fear and reaping aggression on all sides by committing violent acts for political and economic gain, which is a threat. It's perhaps a fine line between recognizing this fact and falling prey to the PR ploy as recognizing the fact brings our own political lines, which furthers the ploy's objective, into play. Brent made a good point: compare violence to potency of other threats. I'd add cui bono, obligatory grain of salt, and maybe we don't need cartoons to replace our thinking or humor. PGC It would behoove us to at least recognize that the roots of the problems in the middle east run deeper than offense at a cartoon. I used cartoon in less than literal sense. And I did as well, the cartoon is emblematic of a larger tendency to prejudice and also of a kind of mode of discourse that reduces complex reality to facile caricature – IMO. It is a complex mess with deep historical roots going back to the Ottoman period and on through the period of French and British colonial rule. There are no easy solutions and the problem is not going away. What? You don't think if I post my position a few more dozen times, that the problem will not disappear from the global stage? Dear Internet of grand opinionage, I am disappointed in you! I wish you luck on your world changing quest…. There is some possibility that a few dozen or more posts on your part could trigger some world history altering re-framing within billions of minds; good luck on that. Sincerely, PGC In order to manage the situation, as it has become, we need to at the very least have a clear and comprehensive understanding of the issues and forces that are driving resurgent medievalism in the middle east (but not only there… there is a surge of the medievalist mind in the USA, and I imagine to some degree in Western Europe as well) Freedom includes by definition the right for everybody else to see/express things their way. yes Therefore it is not a simple, clear matter to fight for freedom of speech, as any form of battle/competition/conflict includes assumption of restricting/denying/limiting the freedom of the opponent, which leads to contradiction. Usually people holding different views will let each other voice those views without threat or sanction. However when one point of view begins to frame those who hold other dissenting points of view as being enemies of the state (or the faith, and often both) that is the watershed where democracy slides down into totalitarianism. Hence the laws against defamation. True to form of factual concreteness fetishes, we believe that power will take care of a power problem. Power marks difference/imbalance relative to some value(s), and using some form of it to eliminate lesser form is dubious but plausible; if done minimizing harm at maximum of levels. In the US, unlike in Europe (and Canada, Australia and New Zealand) and much of the rest of the world, it is very hard to win a defamation civil suit let alone win an actual legal case. Perhaps we have gone overboard in this way, hard to say. The truth that western liberal believes 'will establish itself over time' is problematic in one key sense: when exactly does the truth of freedom arrive (kinda sounds like waiting for messiah figure) and should we do something about the roads collapsing here, economic/political/theological differences, the people being hurt over there, or the laws and prohibition trampling freedom for security indefinitely; if so what? And why do we need all these lawyers if everything is clear? ;-) PGC There is no single “truth”, each person must discover their own way and each person’s way is
