Re: What day is it?

[Stathis Papaioannou]

On Monday, September 7, 2015, Brent Meeker  wrote:

>
>
> On 9/6/2015 7:20 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Brent Meeker  > wrote:
>
>> $2, because you can just say "Monday" each time you're asked.  It has
>> nothing to do with probabilities.  It's a good analogue of the MWI problem;
>> when everything is deterministic and everything happens there's no
>> objective measure.
>>
>
> There are many "interpretations" of prboability:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_interpretations
>
> I think the thought experiment I describe is an example of probability
> under the "frequentist" definition.
>
>
> No, there's no randomness in it.  There's no distribution to approximate
> in repeated trials.
>

It's the same kind of randomness that emerges from multiverse theories. You
presumably estimate probabilities in everyday life, and generally it serves
you well. Do you conclude from this that multiverse theories are wrong, and
there must be a single track universe with true randomness?


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Re: What day is it?

[Brent Meeker]

On 9/6/2015 4:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
You may not be certain, but you know what the possibilities are, and I 
would argue, what the probabilites are as well.


What would you consider to be the minimum fair pay out X if you had to 
pay $1 on each of the days, and would be awarded $X if you guessed 
correctly which day it was?


Jason

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:17 PM, John Mikes > wrote:


Q #3 is irrelevant, after Q #2.
The answer is "I DUNNO" unless you detect indications for a better
one.
JM

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jason Resch > wrote:

You will undergo the following experiment:

1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and
not be woken up until Monday.
2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is.
*How do you answer?*
3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and
also given a drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at
all on Monday.
4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How
do you answer?*

*If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you
are woken up, how do you answer on either of the days you are
awoken?*



That seems to be a purely subjective "probability".   It's like saying, 
"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10.  What's the probability it's 
5?"   I'm not sure you can get to Born's rule from there.


Brent



(I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the
final question)

Jason

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Re: What day is it?

[Terren Suydam]

You don't say whether the subject is aware of the protocol beyond being
woken up on Monday. I'm assuming they are aware because if not, answers to
both 2 and 4 would be Monday, prob 100%. If subject is aware of the second
part of the protocol before the procedure begins, then prob 50% for both
answers.
On Sep 6, 2015 4:27 PM, "Jason Resch"  wrote:

> You will undergo the following experiment:
>
> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
> woken up until Monday.
> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
> answer?*
> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
> answer?*
>
> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>
> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final question)
>
> Jason
>
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Re: What day is it?

[Jason Resch]

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Stathis Papaioannou 
wrote:

>
>
> On Monday, September 7, 2015, Jason Resch  wrote:
>
>> You will undergo the following experiment:
>>
>> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
>> woken up until Monday.
>> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
>> answer?*
>> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
>> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
>> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
>> answer?*
>>
>> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
>> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>>
>> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final
>> question)
>>
>
> This is like being teleported into either Monday or Tuesday.
>

It is. It duplicates the same conscious state. However, it does not
duplicate the person so it avoids the problems John Clark cites as a reason
for not answering the question at hand.


> I'd say there's a 1/2 chance of finding yourself in either Monday
> or  Tuesday when you wake up.
>

I agree.


> Someone else might answer that there is not really a "you" any more as
> there are two branches, so the question is meaningless.
>

I don't see why there is no more you. There is a single continuation/stream
of consciousness. It just happens to run over the same state more than once.

Jason



>
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Re: What day is it?

[Brent Meeker]

On 9/6/2015 4:59 PM, Brent Meeker wrote:



On 9/6/2015 4:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
You may not be certain, but you know what the possibilities are, and 
I would argue, what the probabilites are as well.


Knowing possibilities isn't enough.  Probability requires a measure. Of 
course you're free to assume one or intuit one or guess one...but that 
doesn't connect to the mechanics of the world.


Brent



What would you consider to be the minimum fair pay out X if you had 
to pay $1 on each of the days, and would be awarded $X if you guessed 
correctly which day it was?


Jason

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:17 PM, John Mikes > wrote:


Q #3 is irrelevant, after Q #2.
The answer is "I DUNNO" unless you detect indications for a
better one.
JM

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jason Resch
 wrote:

You will undergo the following experiment:

1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug
and not be woken up until Monday.
2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is.
*How do you answer?*
3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and
also given a drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at
all on Monday.
4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is.
*How do you answer?*

*If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when
you are woken up, how do you answer on either of the days you
are awoken?*



That seems to be a purely subjective "probability".   It's like 
saying, "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10.  What's the 
probability it's 5?"   I'm not sure you can get to Born's rule from there.


Brent



(I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the
final question)

Jason

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Re: What day is it?

[Jason Resch]

You may not be certain, but you know what the possibilities are, and I
would argue, what the probabilites are as well.

What would you consider to be the minimum fair pay out X if you had to pay
$1 on each of the days, and would be awarded $X if you guessed correctly
which day it was?

Jason

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:17 PM, John Mikes  wrote:

> Q #3 is irrelevant, after Q #2.
> The answer is "I DUNNO" unless you detect indications for a better one.
> JM
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jason Resch  wrote:
>
>> You will undergo the following experiment:
>>
>> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
>> woken up until Monday.
>> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
>> answer?*
>> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
>> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
>> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
>> answer?*
>>
>> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
>> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>>
>> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final
>> question)
>>
>> Jason
>>
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Re: What day is it?

[Jason Resch]

Yes, to clarify you are aware of the entire protocol before going into it.
And also you are provided no external clues or hints as to which day it is.

Jason

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

> You don't say whether the subject is aware of the protocol beyond being
> woken up on Monday. I'm assuming they are aware because if not, answers to
> both 2 and 4 would be Monday, prob 100%. If subject is aware of the second
> part of the protocol before the procedure begins, then prob 50% for both
> answers.
> On Sep 6, 2015 4:27 PM, "Jason Resch"  wrote:
>
>> You will undergo the following experiment:
>>
>> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
>> woken up until Monday.
>> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
>> answer?*
>> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
>> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
>> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
>> answer?*
>>
>> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
>> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>>
>> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final
>> question)
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> --
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Re: What day is it?

[Jason Resch]

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

>
>
> On 9/6/2015 4:59 PM, Brent Meeker wrote:
>
>
>
> On 9/6/2015 4:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> You may not be certain, but you know what the possibilities are, and I
> would argue, what the probabilites are as well.
>
>
> Knowing possibilities isn't enough.  Probability requires a measure. Of
> course you're free to assume one or intuit one or guess one...but that
> doesn't connect to the mechanics of the world.
>

I'm not trying to necessarily connect to the mechanics of the world, but to
show a another way that first person indeterminancy can arise in a fully
deterministic setting with full information of the protocol, even without
physical duplication of the person.

Jason


>
>
> Brent
>
>
>
> What would you consider to be the minimum fair pay out X if you had to pay
> $1 on each of the days, and would be awarded $X if you guessed correctly
> which day it was?
>
> Jason
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:17 PM, John Mikes < 
> jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Q #3 is irrelevant, after Q #2.
>> The answer is "I DUNNO" unless you detect indications for a better one.
>> JM
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jason Resch < 
>> jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You will undergo the following experiment:
>>>
>>> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
>>> woken up until Monday.
>>> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
>>> answer?*
>>> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
>>> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
>>> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
>>> answer?*
>>>
>>> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
>>> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>>>
>>
> That seems to be a purely subjective "probability".   It's like saying,
> "I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10.  What's the probability it's
> 5?"   I'm not sure you can get to Born's rule from there.
>
> Brent
>
>
>>> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final
>>> question)
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
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Re: What day is it?

[Brent Meeker]

On 9/6/2015 7:20 PM, Jason Resch wrote:



On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote:


$2, because you can just say "Monday" each time you're asked.  It
has nothing to do with probabilities.  It's a good analogue of the
MWI problem; when everything is deterministic and everything
happens there's no objective measure.


There are many "interpretations" of prboability: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_interpretations


I think the thought experiment I describe is an example of probability 
under the "frequentist" definition.


No, there's no randomness in it.  There's no distribution to approximate 
in repeated trials.


Brent

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Re: What day is it?

[Stathis Papaioannou]

On Monday, September 7, 2015, Jason Resch  wrote:

> You will undergo the following experiment:
>
> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
> woken up until Monday.
> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
> answer?*
> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
> answer?*
>
> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>
> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final question)
>

This is like being teleported into either Monday or Tuesday. I'd say
there's a 1/2 chance of finding yourself in either Monday or  Tuesday when
you wake up. Someone else might answer that there is not really a "you" any
more as there are two branches, so the question is meaningless.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: What day is it?

[John Mikes]

Q #3 is irrelevant, after Q #2.
The answer is "I DUNNO" unless you detect indications for a better one.
JM

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jason Resch  wrote:

> You will undergo the following experiment:
>
> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
> woken up until Monday.
> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
> answer?*
> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
> answer?*
>
> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>
> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final question)
>
> Jason
>
> --
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Re: What day is it?

[Jason Resch]

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

> $2, because you can just say "Monday" each time you're asked.  It has
> nothing to do with probabilities.  It's a good analogue of the MWI problem;
> when everything is deterministic and everything happens there's no
> objective measure.
>

There are many "interpretations" of prboability:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_interpretations

I think the thought experiment I describe is an example of probability
under the "frequentist" definition.

Jason




>
>
> Brent
>
> On 9/6/2015 4:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> You may not be certain, but you know what the possibilities are, and I
> would argue, what the probabilites are as well.
>
> What would you consider to be the minimum fair pay out X if you had to pay
> $1 on each of the days, and would be awarded $X if you guessed correctly
> which day it was?
>
> Jason
>
> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:17 PM, John Mikes  wrote:
>
>> Q #3 is irrelevant, after Q #2.
>> The answer is "I DUNNO" unless you detect indications for a better one.
>> JM
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jason Resch < 
>> jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You will undergo the following experiment:
>>>
>>> 1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be
>>> woken up until Monday.
>>> 2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
>>> answer?*
>>> 3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
>>> drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
>>> 4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
>>> answer?*
>>>
>>> *If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
>>> up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*
>>>
>>> (I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final
>>> question)
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
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Re: What day is it?

[Brent Meeker]

$2, because you can just say "Monday" each time you're asked.  It has 
nothing to do with probabilities.  It's a good analogue of the MWI 
problem; when everything is deterministic and everything happens there's 
no objective measure.


Brent

On 9/6/2015 4:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
You may not be certain, but you know what the possibilities are, and I 
would argue, what the probabilites are as well.


What would you consider to be the minimum fair pay out X if you had to 
pay $1 on each of the days, and would be awarded $X if you guessed 
correctly which day it was?


Jason

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:17 PM, John Mikes > wrote:


Q #3 is irrelevant, after Q #2.
The answer is "I DUNNO" unless you detect indications for a better
one.
JM

On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Jason Resch > wrote:

You will undergo the following experiment:

1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and
not be woken up until Monday.
2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is.
*How do you answer?*
3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and
also given a drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at
all on Monday.
4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How
do you answer?*

*If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you
are woken up, how do you answer on either of the days you are
awoken?*

(I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the
final question)

Jason

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What day is it?

[Jason Resch]

You will undergo the following experiment:

1. During the weekend you will be put to sleep with a drug and not be woken
up until Monday.
2. On monday you will be woken up and asked what day it is. *How do you
answer?*
3. You are then given a drug to put you to sleep again and also given a
drug that induces amnesia of being woken up at all on Monday.
4. You are woken up on Tuesday, and asked what day it is. *How do you
answer?*

*If asked to ascribe a probability to it being Monday when you are woken
up, how do you answer on either of the days you are awoken?*

(I am particularly interested in John Clark's answer to the final question)

Jason

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Re: Uploaded Worm Mind

[Bruno Marchal]

On 04 Sep 2015, at 20:26, meekerdb wrote:


On 9/4/2015 7:35 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 03 Sep 2015, at 20:26, meekerdb wrote:


On 9/3/2015 8:35 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 02 Sep 2015, at 22:48, meekerdb wrote:


On 9/2/2015 8:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
So now you agree with me that there are different kinds and  
degrees of consciousness; that it is not just a binary  
attribute of an axiom + inference system.


?

Either you are conscious, or you are not.


But is a roundworm either conscious or not?  an amoeba?


I don't know, but i think they are. Even bacteria, and perhaps  
even some viruses, but on a different time scale than us.




If they can be conscious, but not self-conscious then there  
are two kinds of "being conscious".


Yes, at least two kinds, but each arithmetical hypostases  
having either "<>t" or "& p" describes a type of consciousness,  
I would say.
And they all differentiate on the infinitely many version of  
"[]A", be it the "[]" predicate of PA, ZF, an amoeba or you and  
me ...


So if there are different kinds of consciousness then a being  
with more kinds is more conscious.  It seems that your dictum,  
"Your either conscious or not." is being diluted away to mere  
slogan.



There are basically two levels, without criterion of  
decidability, but with simple operational definition:


1) something is conscious if it is torturable, and arguably  
ethically wrong of doing so.


So when Capt Sequra tells Wormold that he's "not of the torturable  
class" he means he's not conscious.  :-)


You might need to give some references here, I'm afraid.



It's from "Our Man In Havana" by Grahame Green.  Only poor Cubans  
are in the torturable class, not Englishmen.


So the englishmen are not conscious, which might explain some thing...

Well, of course by "torturable" I meant "judged as being able to feel  
pain", not "judged as not being able to feel plain", like some people  
believed it is the case for animals.











How is this an operational defintion?  What is the operation to  
determine whether a being is torturable?


Yu make the torture publicly, and if you are sent to jail, the  
entity is conscious, at least in the 3-1 view of the people you are  
living with.


You mean the people who sent me to jail are conscious, i.e. they  
have empathy which implies they are conscious.  But that doesn't  
really solve the problem.  They might just be pretending empathy.


If they pretend empathy, they are self-conscious, even if you are not.  
Pretending and lying requires self-consciousness.





And it doesn't help with my design of a Mars Rover.  Will it be  
conscious only if I program it to show empathy when another Mars  
Rover is tortured?  Does a jumping spider show empathy when a fly is  
tortured, or only when another jumping spider is tortured?


I don't know. Not sure spider (even jumping spider) have a lot of  
empathy.


In matter of consciousness, there are no definite criteria, and the  
operational or quasi-operational criterium I am suggesting is to give  
an idea of a sufficient condition to attribute consciousness,  
certainly not to NOT attribute consciousness. Ethically, it is better  
to attribute consciousness wrongly that to attribute absence of  
consciousness wrongly.













I think all invertebrates are already at that level, and in  
arithmetic that might correspond to the sigma_1 complete (Turing  
universality). Robinson Arithmetic, the universal dovetailer, are  
at that level.


2) something is self-conscious if it is Löbian, basically he is  
aware of its unnameable name. PA, ZF,  are "at  
that level", like all their sound recursively enumerable  
extensions. At that level, the entity is able to ascribe  
consciousness to another, and can get the the moral understanding  
of good and wrong (with or without a forbidden fruit).


What's the operation to determine it is aware of its unamable name?


Ok, you torture a fellow, now, and all people complaining about  
this can be said to have the ability to ascribe consciousness to  
others.


In principle you have to repeat this often to avoid the partial  
zombie case. The criteria are operational in the weak sense of  
making the statement plausible, as we know already that there is no  
definite criterion for consciousness. We might not been able to  
convince an alien about this.


Essentially you are saying just rely on your intuition about what's  
conscious and what's not.  But as Scott Aaronson point out we seek a  
theory of consciousness that we can apply to machines and aliens  
where our intuition doesn't work.


But this was already given. My current theoretical attribution is  
simple: Turing universality is enough for consciousness, and Löbianity  
("awareness of one own Turing universality) is enough for self- 
consciousness. But there are no mechanical criterion to recognize  
Turing universality, nor any program actually (cf Rice Theorem). There  

Re: Uploaded Worm Mind

[Bruno Marchal]

On 06 Sep 2015, at 02:52, Pierz wrote:




On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 1:35:50 AM UTC+10, Bruno Marchal  
wrote:


On 02 Sep 2015, at 22:48, meekerdb wrote:


On 9/2/2015 8:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
So now you agree with me that there are different kinds and  
degrees of consciousness; that it is not just a binary  
attribute of an axiom + inference system.


?

Either you are conscious, or you are not.


But is a roundworm either conscious or not?  an amoeba?


I don't know, but i think they are. Even bacteria, and perhaps  
even some viruses, but on a different time scale than us.




If they can be conscious, but not self-conscious then there are  
two kinds of "being conscious".


Yes, at least two kinds, but each arithmetical hypostases having  
either "<>t" or "& p" describes a type of consciousness, I would  
say.
And they all differentiate on the infinitely many version of  
"[]A", be it the "[]" predicate of PA, ZF, an amoeba or you and  
me ...


So if there are different kinds of consciousness then a being with  
more kinds is more conscious.  It seems that your dictum, "Your  
either conscious or not." is being diluted away to mere slogan.



There are basically two levels, without criterion of decidability,  
but with simple operational definition:


1) something is conscious if it is torturable, and arguably  
ethically wrong of doing so. I think all invertebrates are already  
at that level, and in arithmetic that might correspond to the  
sigma_1 complete (Turing universality). Robinson Arithmetic, the  
universal dovetailer, are at that level.


How does one torture arithmetic? Hold on, I was probably guilty of  
that in school... Oh the guilt!


Like Alice who was beating time  lol




But seriously, why torturable as the criteria? Isn't a conscious  
being incapable of pain perfectly conceivable? (Like the woman I  
heard of recently who is incapable of fear because her amygdala is  
calcified. And there are people who can't feel physical pain. So  
take away fear and pain and torture becomes rather difficult to  
execute.)


You are right. I was giving a sufficient criterium. Not a necessary  
one, as I think that does not exist. We can't even recognize if a  
program compute the factorial function or not (Rice theorem, an easy  
consequence of the second recursion of KleeneI can come back on  
this someday).


To torture an arithmetic, extend it consistently into a terrestrial  
(or oceanic) creature, let it meet the humans ...


Bruno






2) something is self-conscious if it is Löbian, basically he is  
aware of its unnameable name. PA, ZF, are "at that level", like all  
their sound recursively enumerable extensions. At that level, the  
entity is able to ascribe consciousness to another, and can get the  
the moral understanding of good and wrong (with or without a  
forbidden fruit).


But the content of the consciousness can be extremely variable, and  
then there are many different types of consciousness states. By  
incompleteness, machine's psychology is transfinitely rich. The  
first person self is not a machine from the machine first person  
perspective. Machines are naturally non computationalist, and the  
origin of consciousness is plausibly more on the side of the truth  
than on the representation.


Bruno







Brent

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Re: 1P/3P CONFUSION again and again

[Bruno Marchal]

On 04 Sep 2015, at 19:53, John Clark wrote:



On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Bruno Marchal   
wrote:


​​>> ​If arithmetic is more fundamental than physics as you say  
then we should be able to write a program that would get the  
computer wet, and yet we can't and your theory can not give an  
adequate explanation of why not.

  ​
​> ​you need to define what you mean by wet.

​No I most certainly do not need to do that! Any definition of wet  
that I give would be made of words and I have no doubt you would  
then demand another definition of at least one of those words which  
I could only provide with yet more words and round and round we go.  
It would be much better if I gave an example not a definition, it  
would be much better if I threw a bucket of water at you then  
pointed at you and said "wet".


Oh, but then you refer to "wet---the 1p experiment", but that can be  
emulated in arithmetic as all computations can be emulated (and are  
actually emulated) in arithmetic.


But of course, we cannot make something physically wet (assuming  
something like that exists) in our relative computations by programming.






​​>> ​Computationalism​ postulates that the computations a  
PHYSICAL computer produce can create intelligent behavior and  
consciousness, but computationalism does NOT postulate that  
computations ​exist in arithmetic ​independent of physics.


​> ​The fact that computations exist in arithmetic is a trivial  
theorem.


​You keep saying that, and yet in spite of the fact that it would  
be trivial for you to do so you have been unable to explain why you  
have not started The Marchal Computer Hardware Company and you have  
been unable to explain why you are not a trillionare.


This is frankly ridiculous, as the point is that hardware is a  
relative notion in arithmetic. You are again trying to confuse the  
level. Arithmetic can emulate the wetness of water for an emulated  
subject, and that is how hardware can exists in the relative way. To  
simulate hardware per se is so much impossible that this is a part of  
the reason why I do not believe such "primary" hardware exists, and so  
you need to assume its existence to make your point, but then you are  
begging the question.









​>> ​​Show me a example of arithmetic all by itself making a  
calculation and you have won this argument, not a definition, not a  
proof, an EXAMPLE. Stop talking about it and just show me!


​> ​ google a bit more on "Kleene predicate"

​I don't want to ​google "Kleene predicate" and I don't want  
another "proof" and I don't want a definition!!! I want an EXAMPLE,  
I want to see you or anybody or anything else calculate 2 +2   
without using matter!


Ah? Here is one, but please don't confuse what follows with the pixels  
which represent it on the screen:


s(s(0)) + s(s(0))
s(s(s(0)) +s(0))
s(s(s(s(0) + 0)
s(s(s(s(0

here the computation is done in RA. Then, "the computation is done in  
RA" is itself capable of being done in RA, but the sequence above will  
have to be represented in RA, which will be something too long to fit  
in this post, but being a (representation of a) computation is still  
an arithmetical notion.









​> ​Or read any textbook, or Gödel's original paper

​I don't want to ​read any textbook​, I don't want to read​  
Gödel's original paper​! ​I want ​an EXAMPLE, I want ​to see  
you calculate 2 +2  without ​using​ matter!


See above. This does not need any matter, like the existence of a  
prime number bigger than 1000^(1000^(1000^1000)) does not require  
matter.






​>> ​​Yes "you" will survive provided that "you" is defined as  
somebody who remembers ​being a man in Helsinki,


​> ​But that is ambiguous, because if the guy (who remembers  
being the man who was in Helsinki) is now in both city,


​YES, and that is exactly precisely why asking what one and only  
one city "you" will see in a world with "you" duplicating machines  
in it is not a question at all, it is gibberish.​


But that is exactly what is refuted by all copies. The copy having  
0111 in his diary is able to recognize "I was unable to predict  
that".







​> ​You continue to introduce an ambiguity by ignoring the 1p/3p  
difference,


In the entire history of the world nobody, absolutely nobody, has  
ignored the ​difference between 1p and 3p.


You just did above.






​> ​we must still take into account the content of the 1p  
experiences,


​Who's 1p experience? Mr. You's. And who is Mr. You? The guy with  
THE 1p experience​. And round and round we go.​


We have admitted that we need to look at all the content of all  
diaries. They all describe one city, and as they can introspect, they  
all remember having known this in advance, and thus predicted the "(1  
and ~0) v (0 and ~1) for each pass, and they all confirmed that  
prediction for their experience content. Again, this is the same as in  
Everett. Your argument would refute as much MWI