date:20140419

The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual
and its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus
in the larger interest. However, if cannabis and other drugs have some
medicinal benefits, then the research should continue to find the correct,
beneficial use of them, as well as the side-effects.

In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used
for intoxicants, in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word
are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies,
cover the intellect, and thus are discouraged.

It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of
chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for
men, and their sin is greater than their profit...

The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus, I
gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of
the intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits.

Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state of
mind, and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran 4:43] O you
who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know
(well) what you say,...

Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether: [Quran 5:90] O
ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and
(divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew
such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

References:
[Quran 2:219]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2from_verse=218to_verse=220mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

[Quran 4:43]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4from_verse=42to_verse=44mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

[Quran 5:90]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=5from_verse=89to_verse=92mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

Samiya

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 3:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create laws
that were desired a priori by some interest group.

That implies some nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to be
wrong. In fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that wanted to ban
marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin. All these bans were
initiated by people who believed in the ill effects of these substances for
individuals and for society. In many cases they had personal experience.
That the bans may have given rise to criminal activities to circumvent
them, isn't to the point of their origin.

Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On 18 Apr 2014, at 22:33, ghib...@gmail.com wrote:

Physorg runs a report today in which brain abnormalities are linked
with cannabis use,

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-04-casual-marijuana-linked-brain-abnormalities.html#ajTabs

Sounds pretty serious.

Sure, and we have to take all data into account. What that paper show
is just negligible compared to the use of alcohol. Also, they talk
about joint, which is not marjiuana, but a mixture tobacco and
marijuana, and it is not clear if they have verified that the person
did not also drink alcohol. Then all studies I read shows that
cannabis augments the number of neurons, and it is not clear in what
sense those deformations constitutes a problem.

But, anyway, I don't think it makes any sense to ban a drug, as all
studies shows that when it is illegal, you give the market to people
who will not ask the ID to their clients. On the contrary, the
criminals will target the kids, and get the mean to sell the drug
without any price and quality control. So a proof that cannabis *is*
bad for the health is automatically a reason more to make it legal: to
protect the kids.

As a teacher, the statistics on the bad effect of alcohol matches the
personal experience, but this is not true with cannabis. Having taught
more than 40 years, I have never seen any problem with cannabis, but a
lot with mixture cannabis/tobacco, and the worst: cannabis + alcohol.

My point is not that cannabis is an innocent drug. None are, but my
point is based with the comparative dangers between all drugs in the
matter of banning them (assuming that makes sense). Cannabis does not
kill, unlike aspirin, sugar, chocolate, etc. That comparative aspect
needs to be present in all papers on which a political decision can be
inspired. In that respect, cannsbis seems the safest psychotropic
known today.

You link contains a link which relativize such findings:
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-09-association-frequency-marijuana-health-healthcare.html

It is like the discovery that marijuana tar is much more carcinogenic
than tobacco tar. That is verified in the laboratory, but not
reflected in the population studies, and the reason is that the cancer
protection of cannabis might compensate largely its carcinogenic effect.

There were no reason to make cannabis illegal at the start, and there
is no reason today. Smoking cannabis remains infinitely less dangerous
than breathing in urban environment, or eating non-bio fruits, etc.
There are just many things which should be banned before cannabis. But
again, the danger of a drug is not a reason to ban it, but to legalize
it.

In my country, they have tested free distribution of heroin and
needles, and the result were positive: its consumption diminishes, the
violence diminishes, the number of AID case diminishes, etc.

Bruno

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.



On 19 Apr 2014, at 00:52, meekerdb wrote:


On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak  
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create  
laws that were desired a priori by some interest group.
That implies some nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to  
be wrong.  In fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that  
wanted to ban marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin.



What? For marijuana, there were a lot. Anslinger was asked to find  
eveidence that cannabis was worst than alcohol. he destoyed the  
results which showed that cannabis is much less dangerous than  
alcohol. Nixon, Chirac (in France), adn also people in the UK, will  
destroyed such records too.


It is a made up since the start. That is why some people still  
speculate on dangers, for which there are no corresponding complains,  
with very few exception by person who abuse, and would probably not in  
case it would be legal.




All these bans were initiated by people who believed in the ill  
effects of these substances for individuals and for society.


I have no clue why you say this.




In many cases they had personal experience.


The first year of use of consumption of marjuana can be impressive,  
and by its paranoid effect, enhance in case of illegality.


I don't know people complaining about cannabis, I mean in the  
statistical sense, compared to other products.




That the bans may have given rise to criminal activities to  
circumvent them, isn't to the point of their origin.


I have stopped to believe that prohibition has anything to do with  
drug problem. Google on youtube marijuana history.
Its origin is in racism (Anslinger) + unfair competition with oil, and  
I get evidence it was orchestrated by criminals, in fact as a  
recycling of the alcohol prohibitionist machinery.


Drugs must be regulated, and we know today that illegality is what  
which makes them dangerous. You can also look at the site of LEAP (an  
organization of war on drug cops veteran who understood the complete  
nonsense and the perverse effect of prohibition:


http://www.leap.cc/

You will find many references which explains the non sense of  
prohibition of drugs, and its real motivation.


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread Telmo Menezes

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create laws
that were desired a priori by some interest group.

I never claimed that any data was wrong. What I said was that correlations
are weak evidence, and that many studies show correlation for all sorts of
things. Furthermore, these correlations are used selectively when it comes
to legislating. For this we have hard evidence: there is much stronger
scientific evidence against alcohol and tobacco than cannabis, yet the
former are legal while the latter is illegal.

In the UK, Professor David Nutt was sacked from his position as chairman of
the government advisory board on the misuse of drugs for analysing
scientific evidence and coming to the conclusion that alcohol was more
dangerous than ecstasy, LSD and cannabis:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/30/drugs-adviser-david-nutt-sacked
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/29/nutt-drugs-policy-reform-call?guni=Article:in%20body%20link

Then, the cultivation of industrial help -- which is not psychoactive --
was also made illegal. Industrial has a wide range of applications: paper,
fabric, building material and cheap protein source, to name a few. It
threatens several industries and it is not a narcotic. How do you explain
that?

Telmo.

Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On 19 Apr 2014, at 08:42, Samiya Illias wrote:

The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the
individual and its consequent effects on society are observable. The
bans are in thus in the larger interest.

This does not follow. Banning intoxicant augments the intoxicant
consumption, and so, if that is bad, it leads to the contrary effect
than the one desired.

However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal benefits,
then the research should continue to find the correct, beneficial
use of them, as well as the side-effects.

Sure.

In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic
word used for intoxicants, in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root
alphabets of the word are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide
something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover the intellect, and thus
are discouraged.

Does it? The Sufi thinks differently (as you know and can see by
searching sufi drug use. For them, some psychotropic does not cover
the intellect, but discover it.

It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and
games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means
of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit...

That is an authoritative argument. You must understand that this is
not a good point for the Quran, or that interpretation of the Quran.

How can *you* be sure if the prophet did not misunderstood God?

The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness.
Thus, I gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the
harmful effects of the intoxicant, and thus the negatives far
outweigh the benefits.

Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state
of mind, and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran
4:43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are
Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say,...

Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether: [Quran
5:90] O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of)
stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's
handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

[Quran 4:43]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4from_verse=42to_verse=44mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

[Quran 5:90]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=5from_verse=89to_verse=92mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

Conventional religion have a tradition of forbidding anything which
can lead to psychotropic experience, if not mystic experience, because
they have decided of what is truth, and psychotropic experience are
able to question it, and usually leads to making the doubt greater.

In the religious matter, even more than in science, I think we cannot
let other people think for you. In my religion, you can caricature the
prophets, even God, and you can burn the sacred text without
blaspheming, but then you *do* a genuine blasphem when you dare to
talk in its name. You can only trust God to talk directly to the heart
of the people. You can't suggest any action or inaction in its name,
as it becomes the worst authoritative and manipulative argument. There
are just no human intermediate between you and God. Contemplation
community, and dances, prayers, can be allowed, but nobody can decide
actions and inactions, and normalize behavior in Its Name. If you
believe in God, trust him.
To be sure, there is no problem liking sacred texts, but not for any
normative action. Some intoxicant can help to understand this, and
that is why, I think, some tradition and societies wanting to control
you, are condemning them.

Of course, in the Abramanic religion, God can be seen as the first
prohibitionist, and the first to suggest that prohibition can't work.
Explain me how God, with his infinite power, has not been able to
control a population having only two individuals, Adam and Eve. How
could He not prevent them to consume the illicit fruit of knowledge?
Answer: he planned them to have the choice and get the knowledge. He
might permit the shortcut between Earth and Heaven, but not the use of
it to manipulate the others and talk in His name.

Bruno

Samiya

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 3:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
wrote:

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On 19-Apr-2014, at 1:15 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:

On 19 Apr 2014, at 08:42, Samiya Illias wrote:

The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and
its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in
the larger interest.

This does not follow. Banning intoxicant augments the intoxicant consumption,
and so, if that is bad, it leads to the contrary effect than the one desired.

Agree to disagree :)

However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal benefits, then the
research should continue to find the correct, beneficial use of them, as
well as the side-effects.

Sure.

Does it? The Sufi thinks differently (as you know and can see by searching
sufi drug use. For them, some psychotropic does not cover the intellect,
but discover it.

I am aware of the Sufi branch and thought. However, I am only quoting the
Quran, the original Arabic text, which all sects agree upon as the Book
revealed to Prophet Muhammad, which has not undergone any change, and is
preserved in written form as well as in the memory of millions of human beings
till this day.

If something is intoxicating the mind, then how can it be considered safe to
'discover the intellect' unless the intellect has not yet been discovered? ;)
In that case, in the absence of an active intellect, can such a person be
expected to making a rational decision of choosing whether or not to 'use the
drug'??

It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of
chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for
men, and their sin is greater than their profit...

That is an authoritative argument. You must understand that this is not a
good point for the Quran, or that interpretation of the Quran.
How can *you* be sure if the prophet did not misunderstood God?

The original Arabic words of the Quran have not suffered any change over the
centuries. They are not the words of the Prophet. He was only the messenger,
transmitting the revelation as received.
Have you come across any human book which has about 6236 sentences, and
millions of people know it by heart completely, from beginning till end? This
original manuscript is protected from human interpretation...

The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus, I
gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of the
intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits.

Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state of mind,
and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran 4:43] O you who
believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know
(well) what you say,...

[Quran 4:43]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4from_verse=42to_verse=44mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

[Quran 5:90]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=5from_verse=89to_verse=92mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

Conventional religion have a tradition of forbidding anything which can lead
to psychotropic experience, if not mystic experience, because they have
decided of what is truth, and psychotropic experience are able to question
it, and usually leads to making the doubt greater.

In the religious matter, even more than in science, I think we cannot let
other people think for you.

Exactly! That is why we must not be under the influence of any intoxicant so as
to be able to think clearly!

In my religion, you can caricature the prophets, even God, and you can burn
the sacred text without blaspheming, but then you *do* a genuine blasphem
when you dare to talk in its name.

If I'm misguided, then you are right. However, I earnestly believe that the
Quran is God-sent and it helps us understand our purpose here on Earth, and
where we are headed.

You can only trust God to talk directly to the heart of the people. You can't
suggest any action or inaction in its name, as it becomes

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread spudboy100


No wonder you guys are so enthusiastic about anthropogenic warming ( I concur 
but not like you do) cause you been rock'in the Ganj!! Y'all voted for Bob 
Marley for PM, and he's been off-planet for 25 years. Irae mon. Your ears 
hearing the skankin sounds while yer butt be feeling those spanking sounds. On 
the other hand in the US we elected a constitutional lawyer and head of the 
choom gang our president. See, the climate gets warmed up by all yer bongs. 
That's it.


-Original Message-
From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Apr 18, 2014 8:45 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.


If one places Cannabis' danger into perspective of danger of other poisons, you 
can however point to relative safety and potential efficacy as medication for a 
variety of ailments. See Prof. David Nutts research that was brought up on this 
list in the past. And yet nobody states seriously that any poison is harmless; 
we just seem to live in a world that can't do without them on a variety of 
levels at this time. From fossil fuels to heroin. PGC 




On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy 
multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote:


The causes schizophrenia is correlation based conjecture. Not strongly 
convincing, because I bet all the subjects consumed sugar and were involved in 
variety of other behaviors and consumptions. People don't live in test tube and 
the results of questionnaires and tests of this sort should be taken with a 
large grain of salt. It's just easy science to make money with and get funds 
for, from appropriate interests. To be able to single out that it was the 
Cannabis in all these people's lives as exclusive cause, and not merely trigger 
of latent tendency, is too strong. You can say we suppose, correlation, 
because reason x, sample size y. A lot of things can precipitate psychosis in 
patients that already have some predisposition. 


We're talking poison, so ghibbsa, you're barking up the wrong tree if you're 
claiming that some people claim it innocent. But you're right: it's more the 
world that people live in than the poison itself. If your perspective is a dead 
end job of being mechanically exploited and underpaid below ability to survive 
and make a living, and no exit is palpable, then you have increased poison use; 
without that, I think we'd see more breakdowns, psychosis, and crimes 
happening. It is asking too much to expect that segment of society to function 
properly while being shafted. PGC 





On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 11:17 AM,  ghib...@gmail.com wrote:


On Friday, April 18, 2014 8:52:50 AM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote:



On 18 Apr 2014, at 08:41, ghi...@gmail.com wrote:



On Friday, April 18, 2014 7:28:26 AM UTC+1, ghi...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, April 18, 2014 7:28:02 AM UTC+1, ghi...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, April 17, 2014 8:03:09 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Hi, 
 
A good sum up of the how and why cannabis might cure cancers. 
 
You can understand the mechanism and the probabilities. It is a pretty   
good movie. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bMt83_IWkE 
 
We knew this since 1974. Promising research on cancer treatment were   
purposefully broke down. 
 
How could we hope rational decisions with respect to climate when we   
tolerate brainwashing, even a sort of revisionism, on cannabis/hemp,   
and cancers? 
 
The problem is not stupid politicians, it is clever bandits. 
 
The prohibition of cannabis deserves truly the Nobel Prize, in Crime. 
 
But it might also be their fatal error, I think. 
 
I think the world will get closer to paradise when the humans will   
stop confuse p - q with q - p. That confusion is exploited by the   
fear sellers (pseudo-religious or not). 
 
Bruno 
 
 
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 

 
It's a load of rubbish Bruno. Cannabis ha

 
sorry...it

 
sorry again. It's a load of old cobblers because cannabis has been available to 
researchers throughout. 



When I read Jack Herer a long time ago, I leave the book away when I came to 
the chapter where he claimed that cannabis cures might cancer (and did cure 
some cancer for mice in 1974). I thought the hippies was going crackpot on 
this. That was to gross. 
But when in 2009 a spanish team rediscovered that fact(*), I have scrutinized 
both the allegation of cure, and the allegation that rserach on cannabis was 
discouraged. That second point is rather clear in the US where cannabis is 
schedule one, making research quite difficult from the administrative 
perspective (virtually impossible in most universities). The first point is now 
accepted in the mainstream, but the media and the doctors ignore it, probably 
because cannabis is illegal.
You might read:


(*) http://www.jci.org/articles/view/37948  (original spanish paper)



http://www.mapinc.org/newstcl/v01/n572/a11.html


You can find many papers on cannabis and cancer here:

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread spudboy100


Interesting, however, religion itself can an intoxicant, with the promise of 
paradise with many, many, willing females, and wine is permitted, and eternal 
life, if one merely, throws caution to wind and becomes a shaheed. What are a 
few years in this valley of tears, compared to paradise? An intoxicant indeed 
for the faithful.

In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used for 
intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word are 
kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover 
the intellect, and thus are discouraged




-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 2:42 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.



The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and 
its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in the 
larger interest. However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal 
benefits, then the research should continue to find the correct, beneficial  
use of them, as well as the side-effects. 


In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used for 
intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word are 
kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover 
the intellect, and thus are discouraged. 



It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of 
chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, 
and their sin is greater than their profit... 


The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus, I 
gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of the 
intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits. 


Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state of mind, 
and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran 4:43] O you who 
believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) 
what you say,...  
 


Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether: [Quran 5:90] O ye 
who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination 
by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such 
(abomination), that ye may prosper.
   
References: 

[Quran 2:219] 
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2from_verse=218to_verse=220mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1
 



[Quran 4:43] 
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4from_verse=42to_verse=44mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1
 



[Quran 5:90] 
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=5from_verse=89to_verse=92mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1
 




Samiya 









On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 3:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  

On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes  wrote:


What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because  weak 
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to  create laws 
that were desired a priori by some interest group.

That implies some  nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to be 
wrong.  In  fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that wanted to ban 
 marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin.  All these bans were  
initiated by people who believed in the ill effects of these  substances 
for individuals and for society.  In many cases they  had personal 
experience.  That the bans may have given rise to  criminal activities to 
circumvent them, isn't to the point of  their origin.
  
  Brent
  


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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is willing
to look beyond the prejudices.
The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more one
falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!

Samiya

On 19-Apr-2014, at 6:12 pm, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Interesting, however, religion itself can an intoxicant, with the promise of
paradise with many, many, willing females, and wine is permitted, and eternal
life, if one merely, throws caution to wind and becomes a shaheed. What are a
few years in this valley of tears, compared to paradise? An intoxicant indeed
for the faithful.
In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used
for intoxicants, in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word
are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies,
cover the intellect, and thus are discouraged
-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 2:42 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and
its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in the
larger interest. However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal
benefits, then the research should continue to find the correct, beneficial
use of them, as well as the side-effects.

It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of
chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for
men, and their sin is greater than their profit...

The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus, I
gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of the
intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits.

Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state of mind,
and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran 4:43] O you who
believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well)
what you say,...

[Quran 4:43]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4from_verse=42to_verse=44mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

[Quran 5:90]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=5from_verse=89to_verse=92mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

Samiya

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 3:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:
On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create laws
that were desired a priori by some interest group.
That implies some nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to be
wrong. In fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that wanted to ban
marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin. All these bans were initiated
by people who believed in the ill effects of these substances for
individuals and for society. In many cases they had personal experience.
That the bans may have given rise to criminal activities to circumvent them,
isn't to the point of their origin.

Brent
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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread ghibbsa

On Friday, April 18, 2014 11:52:59 PM UTC+1, Brent wrote:

On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create laws
that were desired a priori by some interest group.

Brent

To the part about personal experience...Right - I had personal experience,
like presumably a lot of people. I actually mentioned seeing two personal
friends starting to smoke pot in their early teens and being
institutionalized a few years later. Like...oddballs shambling up and down
the street for the rest of their lives, I imagine.

I wasn't looking for a violin, but the response by some people on this
thread, was pretty fucking insulting. Bruno all but accused me of lying in
his scare quotes experience he puts it down to. PGC blurbs out this
pompous indifferent padded life twallop, and telmo jumps in with a load of
projection about ghastly politically motivated people that hide behind
spurious scientific veneers - and basically anything else they find useful
- to continually push some twisted self-serving inconsiderate agenda. All
this when there is hard scientific evidence my experience was probably well
to be
expectedhttp://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-07-marijuana-adolescence-permanent-brain-abnormalities.html#inlRlv.
What
a bunch of cunts.

OK...I'm over it now. All forgiven. Big hugs :o)

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread spudboy100


Well, I am more focused on human behavior, and what happens to humans in this 
world. If such a spiritual intoxication leads to an ecstatic, plunge into 
violence, a holy violence, then a reasoning person may pause, and ponder what 
is lost, what is gained, and what is the damage done? Rather than focus on the 
internal realm of self, I concentrate, for now, on behavior.  

There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is willing 
to look beyond the prejudices. 
The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more one 
falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling! 




-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 11:10 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.



There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is willing 
to look beyond the prejudices. 
The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more one 
falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling! 


Samiya 

On 19-Apr-2014, at 6:12 pm, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:



Interesting, however, religion itself can an intoxicant, with the promise of 
paradise with many, many, willing females, and wine is permitted, and eternal 
life, if one merely, throws caution to wind and becomes a shaheed. What are a 
few years in this valley of tears, compared to paradise? An intoxicant indeed 
for the faithful.

In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used for 
intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word are 
kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover 
the intellect, and thus are discouraged




-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 2:42 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.



The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and 
its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in the 
larger interest. However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal 
benefits, then the research should continue to find the correct, beneficial  
use of them, as well as the side-effects. 


In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used for 
intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word are 
kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover 
the intellect, and thus are discouraged. 



It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of 
chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, 
and their sin is greater than their profit... 


The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus, I 
gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of the 
intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits. 


Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state of mind, 
and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran 4:43] O you who 
believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) 
what you say,...  
 


Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether: [Quran 5:90] O ye 
who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination 
by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such 
(abomination), that ye may prosper.
   
References: 

[Quran 2:219] 
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=2from_verse=218to_verse=220mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1
 



[Quran 4:43] 
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4from_verse=42to_verse=44mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1
 



[Quran 5:90] 
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=5from_verse=89to_verse=92mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1
 




Samiya 









On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 3:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  

On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes  wrote:


What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because  weak 
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to  create laws 
that were desired a priori by some interest group.

That implies some  nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to be 
wrong.  In  fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that wanted to ban 
 marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin.  All these bans were  
initiated by people who believed in the ill effects of these  substances 
for individuals and for society.  In many cases they  had personal 
experience.  That the bans may have given

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

People do many strange and horrid things in the name of religion or nation
or some other pretext. Violence has been perpetrated by the Crusaders, by
the Nazis, by the Buddhists in Bhutan, by the Hindus in the Kashmir, Babri
Masjid, by the Jews in Palestine, the Soviets in Afghanistan, the US and
Allies in Iraq, and the list goes on...
One must look beyond the people and evaluate religions for their message.

Samiya

spudboy100 wrote: Well, I am more focused on human behavior, and what
happens to humans in this world. If such a spiritual intoxication leads to
an ecstatic, plunge into violence, a holy violence, then a reasoning
person may pause, and ponder what is lost, what is gained, and what is the
damage done? Rather than focus on the internal realm of self, I
concentrate, for now, on behavior.

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 9:26 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Well, I am more focused on human behavior, and what happens to humans in
this world. If such a spiritual intoxication leads to an ecstatic, plunge
into violence, a holy violence, then a reasoning person may pause, and
ponder what is lost, what is gained, and what is the damage done? Rather
than focus on the internal realm of self, I concentrate, for now, on
behavior.

There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is
willing to look beyond the prejudices.
The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more
one falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!

-Original Message-

From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 11:10 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is
willing to look beyond the prejudices.
The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more
one falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!

Samiya

On 19-Apr-2014, at 6:12 pm, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 2:42 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word
used for intoxicants, in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the
word are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it
implies, cover the intellect, and thus are discouraged.

It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games
of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit
for men, and their sin is greater than their profit...

The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus,
I gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of
the intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits.

Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether: [Quran
5:90] O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones,
and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork:
eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

[Quran 4:43]
http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display_all.php?chapter=4from_verse=42to_verse=44mac=translation_setting=1show_yusufali=1show_shakir=1show_pickthal=1show_mkhan=1show_urdu=1

[Quran 5:90]

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On 19 Apr 2014, at 09:37, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
wrote:

On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create
laws that were desired a priori by some interest group.
That implies some nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to
be wrong. In fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that
wanted to ban marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin. All
these bans were initiated by people who believed in the ill effects
of these substances for individuals and for society. In many cases
they had personal experience. That the bans may have given rise to
criminal activities to circumvent them, isn't to the point of
their origin.

I never claimed that any data was wrong. What I said was that
correlations are weak evidence,

It is worth than that. The danger of cannabis is a set up. It is a
case where politics just ignore the real data, and the real
correlation, made in the valid direction.
What I say is mainstream: there are no expert on cannabis which know
this, except fake expert paid by corporatist societies.

The first proof by Nihas that cannabis lead to brain problems was
based on rabbits brain smoking 27 (I think) cigarettes of tobacco +
cannabis 24h/24h. They died of lack of oxygen.

Of course all drugs have dangers, but comparatively to tobacco,
alcohol, or even aspirin, sugar, etc., cannabis is less toxic, as far
as we know today. The danger is a myth created by the collusion of
racists (anti-mexicans), Oil barons, and drug dealers.

and that many studies show correlation for all sorts of things.
Furthermore, these correlations are used selectively when it comes
to legislating. For this we have hard evidence: there is much
stronger scientific evidence against alcohol and tobacco than
cannabis, yet the former are legal while the latter is illegal.

That was the lesson of prohibition of alcohol. Make a safe medication
illegal, because the danger of a drug augments by prohibition, like
alcohol.

In the UK, Professor David Nutt was sacked from his position as
chairman of the government advisory board on the misuse of drugs for
analysing scientific evidence and coming to the conclusion that
alcohol was more dangerous than ecstasy, LSD and cannabis:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/30/drugs-adviser-david-nutt-sacked
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/29/nutt-drugs-policy-reform-call?guni=Article:in%20body%20link

Then, the cultivation of industrial help -- which is not
psychoactive -- was also made illegal.

Yes, you can find video of old people confessing having fight for the
illegality of the dangerous Mexican killer drug known as marijuana,
without having the slighest idea that it was hemp. It was a set up. We
have all the detailed informations. Anyone taking the time can look at
what happened.

Industrial has a wide range of applications: paper, fabric, building
material and cheap protein source, to name a few. It threatens
several industries and it is not a narcotic. How do you explain that?

Cannabis has been made illegal about the same day they build the first
harvester machines dedicated to hemp.
It was a conspiracy against Hemp. We known the name, we know the set-
up, we know everything about that. We just ignore it, probably because
we fear the other lies (Kennedy, and the way americans and non
american get hostages of corporatism who defend special interest, and
black market which finance criminals and terrorism.

It is a good news, as bandits always lose power. My hope is that they
will be clever enough to abandon it pacifically little bit by little
bit, instead of trying to stay in power by force and violence. All
lover of the free land should stand against the NDAA, as it allows
break in the human rights, which I was told we were fighting for. I
can understand such break for a very limited period, in war and
crisis, not in any vague indeterminate way.

Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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RE: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread Chris de Morsella

Samiya – Has Islam never participated in perpetrating violence against others; 
in conquest? 

Islam is as guilty as the other Abrahamic faiths, as an agent of violence in 
human history. 

Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Samiya Illias
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 9:57 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

 

People do many strange and horrid things in the name of religion or nation or 
some other pretext. Violence has been perpetrated by the Crusaders, by the 
Nazis, by the Buddhists in Bhutan, by the Hindus in the Kashmir, Babri Masjid, 
by the Jews in Palestine, the Soviets in Afghanistan, the US and Allies in 
Iraq, and the list goes on... 

One must look beyond the people and evaluate religions for their message.  

 

Samiya  

 

spudboy100 wrote: Well, I am more focused on human behavior, and what happens 
to humans in this world. If such a spiritual intoxication leads to an ecstatic, 
plunge into violence, a holy violence, then a reasoning person may pause, and 
ponder what is lost, what is gained, and what is the damage done? Rather than 
focus on the internal realm of self, I concentrate, for now, on behavior. 

 

 

 

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 9:26 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Well, I am more focused on human behavior, and what happens to humans in this 
world. If such a spiritual intoxication leads to an ecstatic, plunge into 
violence, a holy violence, then a reasoning person may pause, and ponder what 
is lost, what is gained, and what is the damage done? Rather than focus on the 
internal realm of self, I concentrate, for now, on behavior.  

There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is willing 
to look beyond the prejudices. 

The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more one 
falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling! 

-Original Message-


From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 11:10 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is willing 
to look beyond the prejudices. 

The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more one 
falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling! 

 

Samiya 


On 19-Apr-2014, at 6:12 pm, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

Interesting, however, religion itself can an intoxicant, with the promise of 
paradise with many, many, willing females, and wine is permitted, and eternal 
life, if one merely, throws caution to wind and becomes a shaheed. What are a 
few years in this valley of tears, compared to paradise? An intoxicant indeed 
for the faithful.

In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used for 
intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word are 
kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover 
the intellect, and thus are discouraged

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 2:42 am
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and 
its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in the 
larger interest. However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal 
benefits, then the research should continue to find the correct, beneficial  
use of them, as well as the side-effects. 

 

In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used for 
intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word are 
kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover 
the intellect, and thus are discouraged.  

 

It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of 
chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, 
and their sin is greater than their profit... 

 

The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness. Thus, I 
gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the harmful effects of the 
intoxicant, and thus the negatives far outweigh the benefits. 

 

Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear state of mind, 
and not when under the influence of intoxicants: : [Quran 4:43] O you who 
believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) 
what you say,...   

 

Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether: [Quran 5:90] O ye 
who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination 
by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such 
(abomination), that ye may prosper.

   

References: 

[Quran 2:219]

RE: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread Chris de Morsella

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of spudboy100@aol.com7

 

No wonder you guys are so enthusiastic about anthropogenic warming ( I
concur but not like you do) cause you been rock'in the Ganj!! Y'all voted
for Bob Marley for PM, and he's been off-planet for 25 years. Irae mon. Your
ears hearing the skankin sounds while yer butt be feeling those spanking
sounds. On the other hand in the US we elected a constitutional lawyer and
head of the choom gang our president. See, the climate gets warmed up by all
yer bongs. That's it.

 

May I ask.. what are you smoking?

Chris

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com' via Everything List

On 4/19/2014 12:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 19 Apr 2014, at 00:52, meekerdb wrote:

What? For marijuana, there were a lot. Anslinger was asked to find eveidence that
cannabis was worst than alcohol. he destoyed the results which showed that cannabis is
much less dangerous than alcohol. Nixon, Chirac (in France), adn also people in the UK,
will destroyed such records too.

It is a made up since the start. That is why some people still speculate on dangers, for
which there are no corresponding complains, with very few exception by person who abuse,
and would probably not in case it would be legal.

All these bans were initiated by people who believed in the ill effects of these
substances for individuals and for society.

I have no clue why you say this.

Because it's true. The people may have been mistaken - particularly about the net ill
effects on society - but there is plenty of evidence that some people become addicted to
pot just as they become addicted to alcohol or tobacco and this has bad consequences for
them. For example, my wife's first husband became a habitual pot smoker and lost all
ambition and interest in other things. And even aside from such effects, there has been a
strong Puritan ethic in the U.S. that thinks of any kind of sybaritic pleasure as sinful
and bad for one's character.

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RE: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:38 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:52 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 4/18/2014 7:13 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:

What society thinks has nothing to do with it, because weak
correlation-based scientific evidence is used selectively to create laws
that were desired a priori by some interest group.

That implies some nefarious motive and corrupt use of data known to be
wrong.  In fact there was no nefarious 'interest group' that wanted to ban
marijuana or to ban alcohol or to ban heroin.  All these bans were initiated
by people who believed in the ill effects of these substances for
individuals and for society.  In many cases they had personal experience.
That the bans may have given rise to criminal activities to circumvent them,
isn't to the point of their origin.

I never claimed that any data was wrong. What I said was that correlations
are weak evidence, and that many studies show correlation for all sorts of
things. Furthermore, these correlations are used selectively when it comes
to legislating. For this we have hard evidence: there is much stronger
scientific evidence against alcohol and tobacco than cannabis, yet the
former are legal while the latter is illegal.

Exactly - weak correlations can be found for almost anything if you look
hard enough. 

Chris

In the UK, Professor David Nutt was sacked from his position as chairman of
the government advisory board on the misuse of drugs for analysing
scientific evidence and coming to the conclusion that alcohol was more
dangerous than ecstasy, LSD and cannabis:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/30/drugs-adviser-david-nutt-sac
ked

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/29/nutt-drugs-policy-reform-cal
l?guni=Article:in%20body%20link

Then, the cultivation of industrial help -- which is not psychoactive -- was
also made illegal. Industrial has a wide range of applications: paper,
fabric, building material and cheap protein source, to name a few. It
threatens several industries and it is not a narcotic. How do you explain
that?

Telmo.

Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.


On 4/19/2014 12:37 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
Then, the cultivation of industrial help -- which is not psychoactive -- was also made 
illegal. Industrial has a wide range of applications: paper, fabric, building material 
and cheap protein source, to name a few. It threatens several industries and it is not a 
narcotic. How do you explain that?


How do you explain that growth of industrial hemp was encouraged by the government up 
through World War 2?  Did it not pose the same threats then?


Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.


On 4/19/2014 1:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 19 Apr 2014, at 08:42, Samiya Illias wrote:

The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and its 
consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in the larger interest.



This does not follow. Banning intoxicant augments the intoxicant consumption, and so, if 
that is bad, it leads to the contrary effect than the one desired.


Even if it suppresses the consumption of something that is bad for you (e.g. tobacco 
smoking) the actions necessary for suppression: searches, police surveillance, fines, 
imprisonment - may be worse than the effects of consumption.


Brent

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RE: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread Chris de Morsella

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb

 

On 4/19/2014 1:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 19 Apr 2014, at 08:42, Samiya Illias wrote:





The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual and
its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus in
the larger interest. 

 

 

This does not follow. Banning intoxicant augments the intoxicant
consumption, and so, if that is bad, it leads to the contrary effect than
the one desired.


Even if it suppresses the consumption of something that is bad for you (e.g.
tobacco smoking) the actions necessary for suppression: searches, police
surveillance, fines, imprisonment - may be worse than the effects of
consumption.



Besides which - if left alone - the effects of something that is bad for you
ultimately result in bad outcomes for the individuals with the bad habits.
Over time cultures begin to recognize the correlation between some habit and
bad outcomes and a natural balance is achieved without state intervention. 

For example - to use a non drug behavior - the practice of safe sex (i.e.
using a condom) has markedly reduced the transmission rates of many deadly
diseases, such as hiv, amongst sexually active populations. This cultural
behavioral change - from not using condoms to using condoms, has not been
achieved through state enforcement (also highly impractical perhaps), but
through the spread of the awareness and consequent cultural adaptation.

It is legal in many places - Italy for example - for hard alcohol to be sold
to a four year old, but it does not happen in practice - all without the
need for the repressive enforcement of any laws, regulations, but rather
through the more benign method of custom and basic common sense. It is
through learned cultural adaptation that most things can and should be
handled. State intervention should be reserved for acute types of acts, such
as say murder, or massive toxic pollution  that are intolerable for general
well-being.

The need to make laws, to prohibit (also religiously-politically, in say
how Islam prohibits - by force -- the consumption of pork or alcohol)
against perceived moral or behavioral wrongs is ultimately a grand waste of
energy and a powerful enabler of organized criminality and widespread
corruption that achieves nothing except driving certain proscribed behaviors
underground into the shadow world of the organized crime syndicate  central
intelligence agency dominated black world. the world that effectively rules
- or at the very least powerfully influences -- the visible official world
that is publicly represented as being the entire story.

There is no need for the cure; the cure is worse than the disease because
dangerous behavior self corrects in that those who engage in it are removed
from the gene pool and provide teachable moments to other individuals who
witness their trajectories. As amongst mountain climbers it is well known
that there are no old free climbers.. Because they die young! By a similar
parallel kind of mechanism the ultimate trajectories that various drug
habits (or any habit for that matter: gambling say, or over-eating, bad
diet, or lack of exercise. etc.) lead people's lives on becomes part of our
cultural repertoire, without the need for any state intervention.

Junkies, like free climbers (who climb rock faces without pitons or rope)
also tend to die young. There will always be some individuals who are drawn
into these habits or pursuits, but the percentages will always be small
because the vast majority of people can draw on their cultural knowledge and
wisely avoid these habits or risk intense pursuits. 

Why not just let Darwinian evolution do its job? Culture should attempt to
educate and encourage, and offer means of rehabilitation for junkies and
alcoholics, and for a host of other impulse driven bad behavior. I very much
support that, but I see - as the evidence from the fifty plus failed example
of the drug war proves - that state repression is not an answer. Rather it
is the profit engine of the global crime syndicates whose immense profits
over time corrupt all institutions in society (the stock exchanges, the
banks, the legal system itself) and whose black world intersects in a
perverse and corrupting manner with the world of state central intelligence
agencies (which also operate largely outside the law, and which do business
with the crime syndicates)

Chris


Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.



On 19 Apr 2014, at 12:35, Samiya Illias wrote:




On 19-Apr-2014, at 1:15 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:



On 19 Apr 2014, at 08:42, Samiya Illias wrote:

The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the  
individual and its consequent effects on society are observable.  
The bans are in thus in the larger interest.



This does not follow. Banning intoxicant augments the intoxicant  
consumption, and so, if that is bad, it leads to the contrary  
effect than the one desired.




Agree to disagree :)


Even when a turkish sultana condemned smoking tobacco by having the  
head off, the consumption of tobacco grew.


Now, when a religion is related to the state, some religious  
prohibition might work, but I was thinking to laic multi-confessional  
countries.








However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal benefits,  
then the research should continue to find the correct, beneficial   
use of them, as well as the side-effects.


Sure.




In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic  
word used for intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root  
alphabets of the word are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide  
something. Intoxicants, it implies, cover the intellect, and thus  
are discouraged.


Does it? The Sufi thinks differently (as you know and can see by  
searching sufi drug use. For them, some psychotropic does not  
cover the intellect, but discover it.


I am aware of the Sufi branch and thought. However, I am only  
quoting the Quran, the original Arabic text, which all sects agree  
upon as the Book revealed to Prophet Muhammad, which has not  
undergone any change, and is preserved in written form as well as in  
the memory of millions of human beings till this day.


The muslims I know disagree on many verses. I am not sure such text  
are easy to interpret. Even arithmetic is not that easy to interpret.






If something is intoxicating the mind, then how can it be considered  
safe to 'discover the intellect' unless the intellect has not yet  
been discovered?  ;)


It can be a reminiscence :)



In that case, in the absence of an active intellect, can such a  
person be expected to making a rational decision of choosing whether  
or not to 'use the drug'??


The decision has to be done before taking the drug. Yes, there is  
always a risk, and nobody should push you, and that is another reason  
to make it legal, at least in laïc countries. To avoid unscrupulous  
street dealers pushing weak people to buy rotten psychotropic. (and to  
avoid legal drug dealer not trying to cure you).











It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and  
games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and  
means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their  
profit...


That is an authoritative argument. You must understand that this is  
not a good point for the Quran, or that interpretation of the Quran.

How can *you* be sure if the prophet did not misunderstood God?

The original Arabic words of the Quran have not suffered any change  
over the centuries.


That might not necessarily be a good sign.




They are not the words of the Prophet. He was only the messenger,  
transmitting the revelation as received.


Asserting this might not add sense to me. I respect your belief, but I  
will be vigilant about you respecting possible other beliefs.




Have you come across any human book which has about 6236 sentences,  
and millions of people know it by heart completely, from beginning  
till end?



You are not reassuring me, here.




This original manuscript is protected from human interpretation...


My question is: what if a young person tells you, I don't want to  
study by heart the Quran, I want to study by heart the Bhagavad-Gita?  
Will that person keep a decent life in your neighborhood?


Saudi arabis just decided to make atheism illegal. Do we agree that  
this should not be tolerated? I am not an atheist, but I consider that  
each human can think for himself, as long as it does not impose its   
idea by dishonest means or violence, threat, etc.












The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness; laziness.  
Thus, I gather, both mind and body eventually suffer from the  
harmful effects of the intoxicant, and thus the negatives far  
outweigh the benefits.


Initially, the believers were advised to pray when in a clear  
state of mind, and not when under the influence of intoxicants: :  
[Quran 4:43] O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are  
Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say,...


Gradually, they were exhorted to refrain from it altogether:  
[Quran 5:90] O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling,  
(dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an  
abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that  
ye may prosper.


References:
[Quran 2:219]

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.


On 4/19/2014 8:17 AM, Samiya Illias wrote:
There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is willing to look 
beyond the prejudices.
The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more one falls in 
love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!


More proof of the danger of drugs.

Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On 20 April 2014 09:46, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 4/19/2014 8:17 AM, Samiya Illias wrote:

 There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is
 willing to look beyond the prejudices.
 The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more
 one falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!


 More proof of the danger of drugs.


Or of falling in love.

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.


On 4/19/2014 4:25 PM, LizR wrote:

On 20 April 2014 09:46, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net 
mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 4/19/2014 8:17 AM, Samiya Illias wrote:

There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is 
willing to
look beyond the prejudices.
The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more 
one
falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!


More proof of the danger of drugs.

Or of falling in love.


Yep. Never fall in love with a jealous despot.

Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

2014-04-19 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy

All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right
dose differentiates a poison…. Paracelsus (1493-1541)

Paracelsus did a fair job with those few words. Indeed love, theology,
belief, water, books, and a large variety of concepts and behaviors could
qualify as substance here. What isn't poisonous or would disqualify the
statement? PGC


On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:07 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 4/19/2014 4:25 PM, LizR wrote:

  On 20 April 2014 09:46, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 4/19/2014 8:17 AM, Samiya Illias wrote:

 There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is
 willing to look beyond the prejudices.
 The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the
 more one falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing
 feeling!


  More proof of the danger of drugs.


 Or of falling in love.


 Yep. Never fall in love with a jealous despot.

 Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

I agree. (Even chocolate may be a poison, although I haven't yet
completed my investigations.)


On 20 April 2014 12:55, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.comwrote:

 All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The
 right dose differentiates a poison…. Paracelsus (1493-1541)

 Paracelsus did a fair job with those few words. Indeed love, theology,
 belief, water, books, and a large variety of concepts and behaviors could
 qualify as substance here. What isn't poisonous or would disqualify the
 statement? PGC


 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:07 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 4/19/2014 4:25 PM, LizR wrote:

  On 20 April 2014 09:46, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 4/19/2014 8:17 AM, Samiya Illias wrote:

 There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is
 willing to look beyond the prejudices.
 The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the
 more one falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing
 feeling!


  More proof of the danger of drugs.


 Or of falling in love.


 Yep. Never fall in love with a jealous despot.

 Brent

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

Chris, I was replying to Spudboy100 who refuses to consider the Quran
because of the 'jihadis' 'behavoir' . The point I was trying to make is
that some people, from all religious persuasions, do strange and at times
horrible things. We need to look past people and their behaviours, and
examine the religious texts to evaluate for ourselves what it is. We are
all responsible for our own beliefs and actions. We come to this world
alone, we will leave it alone. What religious label we are born in, which
religious label or not we choose, eventually we all must face death alone,
and whatever's beyond that. Wishing it away because some people are poor
ambassadors or poor communicators of the message, won't change things
according to our wishes. We humans have intelligence and a vast wondrous
world full of thoughts and ideas and science and signs... we must explore
everything we can for its own merit before discarding it.
On this Everything list, I see earnest seekers exploring almost everything,
but somehow they stop short of scripture, especially Quran. I understand
much of this has to do with a filtered view of history, long-held
prejudices, popular media, as well as the actions of people who poorly
understand or use the religion, etc. The thing is, to understand
everything, we must be willing to explore everything.

To answer your question, you may find these versions of history different
from what you may know about Muslim conquests:
http://lostislamichistory.com/did-islam-spread-by-the-sword/
http://lostislamichistory.com/?s=crusades
http://lostislamichistory.com/the-crusades-part-3-liberation/

Samiya


On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Chris de Morsella
cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote:

 Samiya – Has Islam never participated in perpetrating violence against
 others; in conquest?

 Islam is as guilty as the other Abrahamic faiths, as an agent of violence
 in human history.

 Chris



 *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Samiya Illias
 *Sent:* Saturday, April 19, 2014 9:57 AM
 *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com

 *Subject:* Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.



 People do many strange and horrid things in the name of religion or nation
 or some other pretext. Violence has been perpetrated by the Crusaders, by
 the Nazis, by the Buddhists in Bhutan, by the Hindus in the Kashmir, Babri
 Masjid, by the Jews in Palestine, the Soviets in Afghanistan, the US and
 Allies in Iraq, and the list goes on...

 One must look beyond the people and evaluate religions for their message.



 Samiya



 spudboy100 wrote: Well, I am more focused on human behavior, and what
 happens to humans in this world. If such a spiritual intoxication leads to
 an ecstatic, plunge into violence, a holy violence, then a reasoning
 person may pause, and ponder what is lost, what is gained, and what is the
 damage done? Rather than focus on the internal realm of self, I
 concentrate, for now, on behavior.







 On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 9:26 PM, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Well, I am more focused on human behavior, and what happens to humans in
 this world. If such a spiritual intoxication leads to an ecstatic, plunge
 into violence, a holy violence, then a reasoning person may pause, and
 ponder what is lost, what is gained, and what is the damage done? Rather
 than focus on the internal realm of self, I concentrate, for now, on
 behavior.

 There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is
 willing to look beyond the prejudices.

 The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more
 one falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!

 -Original Message-


 From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com

 Sent: Sat, Apr 19, 2014 11:10 am
 Subject: Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

 There are many 'interesting' things to learn about Islam only if one is
 willing to look beyond the prejudices.

 The more one studies and contemplates on the Quran and the world, the more
 one falls in love with God. It is intoxicating, it's an amazing feeling!



 Samiya


 On 19-Apr-2014, at 6:12 pm, spudboy...@aol.com wrote:

 Interesting, however, religion itself can an intoxicant, with the promise
 of paradise with many, many, willing females, and wine is permitted, and
 eternal life, if one merely, throws caution to wind and becomes a shaheed.
 What are a few years in this valley of tears, compared to paradise? An
 intoxicant indeed for the faithful.

 In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used
 for intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word
 are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies,
 cover the intellect, and thus are discouraged

 -Original Message-
 From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On 20 April 2014 15:15, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

 Chris, I was replying to Spudboy100 who refuses to consider the Quran
 because of the 'jihadis' 'behavoir' . The point I was trying to make is
 that some people, from all religious persuasions, do strange and at times
 horrible things. We need to look past people and their behaviours, and
 examine the religious texts to evaluate for ourselves what it is. We are
 all responsible for our own beliefs and actions. We come to this world
 alone, we will leave it alone. What religious label we are born in, which
 religious label or not we choose, eventually we all must face death alone,
 and whatever's beyond that. Wishing it away because some people are poor
 ambassadors or poor communicators of the message, won't change things
 according to our wishes. We humans have intelligence and a vast wondrous
 world full of thoughts and ideas and science and signs... we must explore
 everything we can for its own merit before discarding it.
 On this Everything list, I see earnest seekers exploring almost
 everything, but somehow they stop short of scripture, especially Quran. I
 understand much of this has to do with a filtered view of history,
 long-held prejudices, popular media, as well as the actions of people who
 poorly understand or use the religion, etc.


This is, at least in my case, due to a distrust of taking the authority of
centuries-old texts when there is little to no evidence that any of them
contain more than - at best - a slight grain of truth, and when from a
present day perspective it is clear they were created for reasons well
understood by psychologists (in particular, for social control).


 The thing is, to understand everything, we must be willing to explore
 everything.


Including Uri Geller, UFOs, a thousand people who want to prove Einstein
wrong, Borley Rectory, the people trying to sell me something from
Nigeria, the Loch Ness monster, Ouija boards, Thor, Zeus, Odin and so on -
yes, no doubt one shouldn't dismiss anything, but life's too short not to
prioritise.




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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 19 Apr 2014, at 12:35, Samiya Illias wrote:



 On 19-Apr-2014, at 1:15 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote:


 On 19 Apr 2014, at 08:42, Samiya Illias wrote:

 The harmful effects of the consumption of intoxicants for the individual
 and its consequent effects on society are observable. The bans are in thus
 in the larger interest.



 This does not follow. Banning intoxicant augments the intoxicant
 consumption, and so, if that is bad, it leads to the contrary effect than
 the one desired.


 Agree to disagree :)


 Even when a turkish sultana condemned smoking tobacco by having the head
 off, the consumption of tobacco grew.

 Now, when a religion is related to the state, some religious prohibition
 might work, but I was thinking to laic multi-confessional countries.





 However, if cannabis and other drugs have some medicinal benefits, then
 the research should continue to find the correct, beneficial  use of them,
 as well as the side-effects.


 Sure.



 In Islam, consumption of intoxicants are discouraged. The arabic word used
 for intoxicants,  in the Quran, is al-khamr. The root alphabets of the word
 are kh-m-r which means to cover or hide something. Intoxicants, it implies,
 cover the intellect, and thus are discouraged.


 Does it? The Sufi thinks differently (as you know and can see by searching
 sufi drug use. For them, some psychotropic does not cover the intellect,
 but discover it.

 I am aware of the Sufi branch and thought. However, I am only quoting the
 Quran, the original Arabic text, which all sects agree upon as the Book
 revealed to Prophet Muhammad, which has not undergone any change, and is
 preserved in written form as well as in the memory of millions of human
 beings till this day.


 The muslims I know disagree on many verses. I am not sure such text are
 easy to interpret. Even arithmetic is not that easy to interpret.


 Yet you work with arithmetic, explore comp and try to understand :)



 If something is intoxicating the mind, then how can it be considered safe
 to 'discover the intellect' unless the intellect has not yet been
 discovered?  ;)


 It can be a reminiscence :)



 In that case, in the absence of an active intellect, can such a person be
 expected to making a rational decision of choosing whether or not to 'use
 the drug'??


 The decision has to be done before taking the drug. Yes, there is always a
 risk, and nobody should push you, and that is another reason to make it
 legal, at least in laïc countries. To avoid unscrupulous street dealers
 pushing weak people to buy rotten psychotropic. (and to avoid legal drug
 dealer not trying to cure you).








 It is explained: [Quran 2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of
 chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for
 men, and their sin is greater than their profit...


 That is an authoritative argument. You must understand that this is not a
 good point for the Quran, or that interpretation of the Quran.
 How can *you* be sure if the prophet did not misunderstood God?

 The original Arabic words of the Quran have not suffered any change over
 the centuries.


 That might not necessarily be a good sign.


What do you mean?





 They are not the words of the Prophet. He was only the messenger,
 transmitting the revelation as received.


 Asserting this might not add sense to me. I respect your belief, but I
 will be vigilant about you respecting possible other beliefs.


Fair enough




 Have you come across any human book which has about 6236 sentences, and
 millions of people know it by heart completely, from beginning till end?



 You are not reassuring me, here.


Just pointing out a unique miracle that I know not of any other book. I do
not understand your comment.




 This original manuscript is protected from human interpretation...


 My question is: what if a young person tells you, I don't want to study
 by heart the Quran, I want to study by heart the Bhagavad-Gita? Will that
 person keep a decent life in your neighborhood?


The question is besides the point: can the Bhagavad-Gita or any other book
be memorized by heart, from beginning till end, word by word, in the
original language? Do millions of people already know it by heart, so that
the authenticity of the original text can be verified by cross-checking
various sources?

There are many decent people on all communities and societies who have
different sets of beliefs and religions, as well as different sects within
the same religion. I have Hindu and Christian neighbours, and that's fine.


 Saudi arabis just decided to make atheism illegal. Do we agree that this
 should not be tolerated? I am not an atheist, but I consider that each
 human can think for himself, as long as it does not impose its  idea by
 dishonest means or violence, threat, etc.








 The word used for sin also means frustration; tiredness;

Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 8:34 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 20 April 2014 15:15, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

 Chris, I was replying to Spudboy100 who refuses to consider the Quran
 because of the 'jihadis' 'behavoir' . The point I was trying to make is
 that some people, from all religious persuasions, do strange and at times
 horrible things. We need to look past people and their behaviours, and
 examine the religious texts to evaluate for ourselves what it is. We are
 all responsible for our own beliefs and actions. We come to this world
 alone, we will leave it alone. What religious label we are born in, which
 religious label or not we choose, eventually we all must face death alone,
 and whatever's beyond that. Wishing it away because some people are poor
 ambassadors or poor communicators of the message, won't change things
 according to our wishes. We humans have intelligence and a vast wondrous
 world full of thoughts and ideas and science and signs... we must explore
 everything we can for its own merit before discarding it.
 On this Everything list, I see earnest seekers exploring almost
 everything, but somehow they stop short of scripture, especially Quran. I
 understand much of this has to do with a filtered view of history,
 long-held prejudices, popular media, as well as the actions of people who
 poorly understand or use the religion, etc.


 This is, at least in my case, due to a distrust of taking the authority of
 centuries-old texts when there is little to no evidence that any of them
 contain more than - at best - a slight grain of truth, and when from a
 present day perspective it is clear they were created for reasons well
 understood by psychologists (in particular, for social control).


 The thing is, to understand everything, we must be willing to explore
 everything.


 Including Uri Geller, UFOs, a thousand people who want to prove Einstein
 wrong, Borley Rectory, the people trying to sell me something from
 Nigeria, the Loch Ness monster, Ouija boards, Thor, Zeus, Odin and so on -
 yes, no doubt one shouldn't dismiss anything, but life's too short not to
 prioritise.


Too short, yes! Prioritize, yes!  Especially because if there is a purpose
to this life, and especially if there is more to life after death, and if
this short life is but a test, whose result is eternal, then we better
study earnestly. Difficult, yes, impossible, no!

Samiya


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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.

On 20 April 2014 16:01, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 8:34 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 20 April 2014 15:15, Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com wrote:

 Chris, I was replying to Spudboy100 who refuses to consider the Quran
 because of the 'jihadis' 'behavoir' . The point I was trying to make is
 that some people, from all religious persuasions, do strange and at times
 horrible things. We need to look past people and their behaviours, and
 examine the religious texts to evaluate for ourselves what it is. We are
 all responsible for our own beliefs and actions. We come to this world
 alone, we will leave it alone. What religious label we are born in, which
 religious label or not we choose, eventually we all must face death alone,
 and whatever's beyond that. Wishing it away because some people are poor
 ambassadors or poor communicators of the message, won't change things
 according to our wishes. We humans have intelligence and a vast wondrous
 world full of thoughts and ideas and science and signs... we must explore
 everything we can for its own merit before discarding it.
 On this Everything list, I see earnest seekers exploring almost
 everything, but somehow they stop short of scripture, especially Quran. I
 understand much of this has to do with a filtered view of history,
 long-held prejudices, popular media, as well as the actions of people who
 poorly understand or use the religion, etc.


 This is, at least in my case, due to a distrust of taking the authority
 of centuries-old texts when there is little to no evidence that any of them
 contain more than - at best - a slight grain of truth, and when from a
 present day perspective it is clear they were created for reasons well
 understood by psychologists (in particular, for social control).


 The thing is, to understand everything, we must be willing to explore
 everything.


 Including Uri Geller, UFOs, a thousand people who want to prove Einstein
 wrong, Borley Rectory, the people trying to sell me something from
 Nigeria, the Loch Ness monster, Ouija boards, Thor, Zeus, Odin and so on -
 yes, no doubt one shouldn't dismiss anything, but life's too short not to
 prioritise.


 Too short, yes! Prioritize, yes!  Especially because if there is a purpose
 to this life, and especially if there is more to life after death, and if
 this short life is but a test, whose result is eternal, then we better
 study earnestly. Difficult, yes, impossible, no!

 Hmm. Pascal's wager, no less.

So which of the 1000s of Gods people have invented, I mean discovered
through divine revelation, should one bet on (and why) ?

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.


On 4/19/2014 9:01 PM, Samiya Illias wrote:


Including Uri Geller, UFOs, a thousand people who want to prove Einstein 
wrong,
Borley Rectory, the people trying to sell me something from Nigeria, the 
Loch Ness
monster, Ouija boards, Thor, Zeus, Odin and so on - yes, no doubt one 
shouldn't
dismiss anything, but life's too short not to prioritise.


Too short, yes! Prioritize, yes!  Especially because if there is a purpose to this life, 
and especially if there is more to life after death, and if this short life is but a 
test, whose result is eternal, then we better study earnestly. Difficult, yes, 
impossible, no!


It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for 
life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it 
posthumous.

 Gloria Steinem, women's rights activist

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Re: cannabis, cancer and mechanism, and climate.