Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 16 Nov 2019, at 11:35, Eva  wrote:
> 
> If you want to know if you are sleeping right now, look at your hands :)
> In dreams, they always have strange shapes.


Unfortunately strangeness is not enough. To test if I a dream, I often test if 
I am able to fly. Once I made a dream, which I suspected to be a dream, so I 
decided to fly (going to my school). I did fly indeed, but with some 
difficulties, so that I concluded that I was not dreaming, because I was not 
flying very well. Then I woke up, notice the illogical conclusion, and asked 
myself how we could be so wrong. I felt completely awake, and after noting all 
those reflexion, I woke up again. False awakening are frequent when doing lucid 
dreaming, and it leads very often to “contra-lucid dream”, in which we get 
convinced to be awake (and notice it consciously) just to be refuted a second 
after. Experimentally, I don’t know any state of consciousness not capable of 
being lived in a dream.

Bruno



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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 14 Nov 2019, at 23:44, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> But maybe there is a kind of experience that cannot be simulated in a dream, 
> for reasons having to do for example with consciousnesses interactions.

Of course, this would require the Mechanist hypothesis to be false.

Bruno




> 
> On Thursday, 14 November 2019 20:49:28 UTC+2, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> 
> From the perspective of experiential realism (ER)
> 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/5Vzj0mFW4KM/_qZECzTTAwAJ 
> 
> 
> the experience that occurs in a dream could be the same as an experience that 
> occurs when awake.
> 
> Say the experience is DaCoT = drinking a cup of tea (the feel of the cup, the 
> warmth and taste of the tea).
> 
> A tea drinker knows a DaCoT experience when awake. They could have a DaCoT 
> experience in a dream.
> 
> (This presumes experiences are real in the sense of ER.)
> 
> @philipthrift
> 
> On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 3:50:45 AM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between dreams 
> and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world might be, 
> this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream. So the randomness of a 
> dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us distinguish between dreams 
> and "real world". What I'm thinking that can help us make the discrimination 
> is the phenomenon of sense disappearance. If we keep a sense on only 1 
> stimulus, eventually we will stop perceiving the stimulus. For example, if we 
> hold our hand on the leg of a girl, at first it is pleasant, but after a time 
> we will stop feeling anything. We will have to pet the leg of the girl in 
> order to feel it again. Would such a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, 
> then this would be a distinguishing hallmark between dreams and "real world". 
> Do you have other ideas ?
> 
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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 14 Nov 2019, at 19:49, Philip Thrift  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> From the perspective of experiential realism (ER)
> 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/5Vzj0mFW4KM/_qZECzTTAwAJ
> 
> the experience that occurs in a dream could be the same as an experience that 
> occurs when awake.

Yes indeed. That is confirmed experimentally. The lucid dreaming state allows 
the dreamer to communicate with “outside” in a laboratory, by moving his eyes, 
or the time of the fingers. The dream-REM-paralysis does not act on the ocular 
muscle. That has been used to test different type of activity, like counting, 
singing, imagining colours, etc. and the activity in the brain is exactly the 
same as in the waken state. When we order a muscle, that order is given during 
the dream, and is just not executed thanks to this paralysis. That is how 
Jouvet discovered the REM state of sleep (in which the long vivid nocturnal 
dream occurs) with cats who were treated to bypass the paralysis. Even hungry 
they hunt for imaginary mouse and fail to see a plate full of cat food. 



> 
> Say the experience is DaCoT = drinking a cup of tea (the feel of the cup, the 
> warmth and taste of the tea).
> 
> A tea drinker knows a DaCoT experience when awake. They could have a DaCoT 
> experience in a dream.
> 
> (This presumes experiences are real in the sense of ER.)

In some dream we can know that we dream (lucid dream), but in all awaken state 
we cannot know for sure that we are awake. Of course we can know it in the 
sense of Theaetetus (that is: we can believe that we are awake, and be awake).

Bruno 





> 
> @philipthrift
> 
> On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 3:50:45 AM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between dreams 
> and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world might be, 
> this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream. So the randomness of a 
> dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us distinguish between dreams 
> and "real world". What I'm thinking that can help us make the discrimination 
> is the phenomenon of sense disappearance. If we keep a sense on only 1 
> stimulus, eventually we will stop perceiving the stimulus. For example, if we 
> hold our hand on the leg of a girl, at first it is pleasant, but after a time 
> we will stop feeling anything. We will have to pet the leg of the girl in 
> order to feel it again. Would such a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, 
> then this would be a distinguishing hallmark between dreams and "real world". 
> Do you have other ideas ?
> 
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>  
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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Friday, November 15, 2019 at 10:18:47 AM UTC-6, Eva wrote:
>
> @Lawrence Crowell 
>
> Schisophrenic voices etc. are illusory, sure, but they are not dreams.
>

In one sense yes, but schizophrenia is where the mind generates all sorts 
of phantasms, and dreams are similar. Some of these people are caught in 
between a woken state and a nightmare. 

LC

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Eva]

If you want to know if you are sleeping right now, look at your hands :)
In dreams, they always have strange shapes.

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[John Clark]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 4:50 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

*> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between
> dreams and "real world" ?*
>

There is no sure fire method but there are useful rules of thumb, dreams
tend to be far far simpler than the real world.


> *> Because no matter how illogical a dream world might be, this doesn't
> make us realize that we are in a dream.*
>

And that is another asymmetry, we tend to be far far stupider in the dream
world than than we are in the real world. When awake in the real world we
can see the obvious logical contradictions in the dream world but when
sleeping we don't recognize the many absurdities in that world and are too
stupid to even remember what the real world is like at all.

John K Clark

>
>

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Eva]

@Lawrence Crowell 

Schisophrenic voices etc. are illusory, sure, but they are not dreams.

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Eva]

Schisophrenic voices etc. are illusory, sure, but they are not dreams. 

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

That's the question: is it contingent to facts about our brain ? Or is it 
something more fundamental about how consciousness works ? 

On Friday, 15 November 2019 01:52:57 UTC+2, stathisp wrote:
>
>
> What you call the phenomenon of sense disappearance is a contingent fact 
> about our brain. We could imagine a dream in which it happens or a reality 
> in which it doesn't happen. 
>
> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou
>

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Philip Thrift]

Actually the sex dream is a good example of experiential realism.

One can certainly have the bodily results [ 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal_emission ] of a "real" awake 
episode, but the experience (Galen Strawson sense) you have while dreaming  
is real.

@philipthrift

On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 4:42:52 PM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> When did you have sex last time ? Go get laid to relax and then come back 
> here. Internet retards!
>
> On Thursday, 14 November 2019 20:17:21 UTC+2, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>>
>>
>> Generally people who are not able to distinguish between a real conscious 
>> state and a dream state need psychiatric therapy. There are people who do 
>> have this problem and as a rule they become labelled as having 
>> schizophrenia. Such people hear voices and see "other beings" the rest of 
>> people do not see. Often schizophrenics self-medicate to escape this 
>> affliction and become alcoholics and drug addicts.
>>
>>

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Stathis Papaioannou]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 at 20:50, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between
> dreams and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world
> might be, this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream. So the
> randomness of a dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us
> distinguish between dreams and "real world". What I'm thinking that can
> help us make the discrimination is the phenomenon of sense disappearance.
> If we keep a sense on only 1 stimulus, eventually we will stop perceiving
> the stimulus. For example, if we hold our hand on the leg of a girl, at
> first it is pleasant, but after a time we will stop feeling anything. We
> will have to pet the leg of the girl in order to feel it again. Would such
> a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, then this would be a distinguishing
> hallmark between dreams and "real world". Do you have other ideas ?
>

What you call the phenomenon of sense disappearance is a contingent fact
about our brain. We could imagine a dream in which it happens or a reality
in which it doesn't happen.

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Philip Thrift]

The *episode* (*I'm picking up and drinking a cup of tea*) in a dream may 
be simulated, but the *experience* itself I have is not simulated. At least 
for an experience realist, it seems to me.

@philipthrift

On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 4:44:32 PM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> But maybe there is a kind of experience that cannot be simulated in a 
> dream, for reasons having to do for example with consciousnesses 
> interactions.
>
> On Thursday, 14 November 2019 20:49:28 UTC+2, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> From the perspective of *experiential realism (ER)*
>>
>> 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/5Vzj0mFW4KM/_qZECzTTAwAJ
>>
>> the experience that occurs in a dream *could be the same* as an 
>> experience that occurs when awake.
>>
>> Say the experience is DaCoT = drinking a cup of tea (the feel of the cup, 
>> the warmth and taste of the tea).
>>
>> A tea drinker knows a DaCoT experience when awake. They could have a 
>> DaCoT experience in a dream.
>>
>> (This presumes experiences are real in the sense of ER.)
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>> On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 3:50:45 AM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>>>
>>> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between 
>>> dreams and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world 
>>> might be, this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream. So the 
>>> randomness of a dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us 
>>> distinguish between dreams and "real world". What I'm thinking that can 
>>> help us make the discrimination is the phenomenon of sense disappearance. 
>>> If we keep a sense on only 1 stimulus, eventually we will stop perceiving 
>>> the stimulus. For example, if we hold our hand on the leg of a girl, at 
>>> first it is pleasant, but after a time we will stop feeling anything. We 
>>> will have to pet the leg of the girl in order to feel it again. Would such 
>>> a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, then this would be a distinguishing 
>>> hallmark between dreams and "real world". Do you have other ideas ?
>>>
>>

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

But maybe there is a kind of experience that cannot be simulated in a 
dream, for reasons having to do for example with consciousnesses 
interactions.

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 20:49:28 UTC+2, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> From the perspective of *experiential realism (ER)*
>
> 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/5Vzj0mFW4KM/_qZECzTTAwAJ
>
> the experience that occurs in a dream *could be the same* as an 
> experience that occurs when awake.
>
> Say the experience is DaCoT = drinking a cup of tea (the feel of the cup, 
> the warmth and taste of the tea).
>
> A tea drinker knows a DaCoT experience when awake. They could have a DaCoT 
> experience in a dream.
>
> (This presumes experiences are real in the sense of ER.)
>
> @philipthrift
>
> On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 3:50:45 AM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>>
>> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between 
>> dreams and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world 
>> might be, this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream. So the 
>> randomness of a dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us 
>> distinguish between dreams and "real world". What I'm thinking that can 
>> help us make the discrimination is the phenomenon of sense disappearance. 
>> If we keep a sense on only 1 stimulus, eventually we will stop perceiving 
>> the stimulus. For example, if we hold our hand on the leg of a girl, at 
>> first it is pleasant, but after a time we will stop feeling anything. We 
>> will have to pet the leg of the girl in order to feel it again. Would such 
>> a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, then this would be a distinguishing 
>> hallmark between dreams and "real world". Do you have other ideas ?
>>
>

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

When did you have sex last time ? Go get laid to relax and then come back 
here. Internet retards!

On Thursday, 14 November 2019 20:17:21 UTC+2, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
>
> Generally people who are not able to distinguish between a real conscious 
> state and a dream state need psychiatric therapy. There are people who do 
> have this problem and as a rule they become labelled as having 
> schizophrenia. Such people hear voices and see "other beings" the rest of 
> people do not see. Often schizophrenics self-medicate to escape this 
> affliction and become alcoholics and drug addicts.
>
>

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Philip Thrift]

>From the perspective of *experiential realism (ER)*

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/5Vzj0mFW4KM/_qZECzTTAwAJ

the experience that occurs in a dream *could be the same* as an experience 
that occurs when awake.

Say the experience is DaCoT = drinking a cup of tea (the feel of the cup, 
the warmth and taste of the tea).

A tea drinker knows a DaCoT experience when awake. They could have a DaCoT 
experience in a dream.

(This presumes experiences are real in the sense of ER.)

@philipthrift

On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 3:50:45 AM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between 
> dreams and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world 
> might be, this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream. So the 
> randomness of a dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us 
> distinguish between dreams and "real world". What I'm thinking that can 
> help us make the discrimination is the phenomenon of sense disappearance. 
> If we keep a sense on only 1 stimulus, eventually we will stop perceiving 
> the stimulus. For example, if we hold our hand on the leg of a girl, at 
> first it is pleasant, but after a time we will stop feeling anything. We 
> will have to pet the leg of the girl in order to feel it again. Would such 
> a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, then this would be a distinguishing 
> hallmark between dreams and "real world". Do you have other ideas ?
>

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 3:50:45 AM UTC-6, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between 
> dreams and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world 
> might be, this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream. So the 
> randomness of a dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us 
> distinguish between dreams and "real world". What I'm thinking that can 
> help us make the discrimination is the phenomenon of sense disappearance. 
> If we keep a sense on only 1 stimulus, eventually we will stop perceiving 
> the stimulus. For example, if we hold our hand on the leg of a girl, at 
> first it is pleasant, but after a time we will stop feeling anything. We 
> will have to pet the leg of the girl in order to feel it again. Would such 
> a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, then this would be a distinguishing 
> hallmark between dreams and "real world". Do you have other ideas ?
>

Generally people who are not able to distinguish between a real conscious 
state and a dream state need psychiatric therapy. There are people who do 
have this problem and as a rule they become labelled as having 
schizophrenia. Such people hear voices and see "other beings" the rest of 
people do not see. Often schizophrenics self-medicate to escape this 
affliction and become alcoholics and drug addicts.

LC

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Re: Distinguishing between dreams and "real world"

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 14 Nov 2019, at 10:50, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List 
>  wrote:
> 
> What would be a sure phenomenon that can help us distinguish between dreams 
> and "real world" ? Because no matter how illogical a dream world might be, 
> this doesn't make us realize that we are in a dream.


Not always indeed. Likewise, we can become aware that we are dreaming in some 
totally non bizarre dream.

It is not easy to find what makes us aware that we are dreaming in some dreams, 
but with training, we can learn to trig that phenomenon for some special 
bizarreries (like meeting someone who is dead, for example, but that is not 
automatic). A good selected paper on Lucid Dreams is the book edited by LaBerge 
and Co.(*).

(*)
Gackenbach Jayne & LaBerge Stephen (eds), Conscious Mind, Sleeping Brain, 
perspective on Lucid Dreaming, Plenum, Press, New-York 1988.



> So the randomness of a dream world is not a phenomenon that can help us 
> distinguish between dreams and "real world”.

It can, but not necessarily.


> What I'm thinking that can help us make the discrimination is the phenomenon 
> of sense disappearance. If we keep a sense on only 1 stimulus, eventually we 
> will stop perceiving the stimulus. For example, if we hold our hand on the 
> leg of a girl, at first it is pleasant, but after a time we will stop feeling 
> anything. We will have to pet the leg of the girl in order to feel it again. 
> Would such a phenomenon happen in dreams ? If not, then this would be a 
> distinguishing hallmark between dreams and "real world". Do you have other 
> ideas ?


With the assumption of Digital Mechanism, we can prove that

1) There is no way we can know if we are in a simulation/dream by direct 
introspection.
2) There is no way at all which can test if we are awake.
3) But if we have means to do physical experiences, we can test if we are in a 
simulation/dream, and this by comparing the physics below our substitution 
level and the physics inferred by observation. To be sure, in this case we can 
still believe that we are NOT in a dream/simulation by just abandoning 
Mechanism.

To sum up: with Mechanism, we can never be sure that we are awake, but there 
are circumstances in which we can be sure that we are dreaming. 

I you can read French, there is a whole chapter on dream and Mechanism in the 
volume 3 (le cereveau, le rêve et la réalité) in my long text “Conscience et 
Mécanisme” here:
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/bxlthesis/consciencemecanisme.html

Bruno




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