Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
On Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 01:29:50AM -0700, rclough wrote: Perhaps I am wrong, but I have a problem with the concept of artificial intelligence and hence artificial life-- at least according to my understanding of what intelligence is. Artificial Life is an independent field to Artificial Intelligence, so I don't see how you can say that. True there is some cross-pollination, mostly ALife = AI, but sometimes AI philosophical issues has some relevance to ALife. An example of the difference: it is relatively easy to define and measure intelligence. Its virtually impossible to do the same for life. -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
On 06 Aug 2012, at 10:29, rclough wrote: Perhaps I am wrong, but I have a problem with the concept of artificial intelligence and hence artificial life-- at least according to my understanding of what intelligence is. As I see it, intelligence is the ability to make choices completely on one's own. Autonomously. Thus intelligence is simply self-determination of some issue. By self-determination I don't mean free will, athough that might be a possibility.The self could use anything in memory, (including current perceptions or awareness) or even anything ever thought of. Darwin tells us that such choices must be mostly appropriate choices, but sometimes they might occur mistakenly, sometimes irrationally, or deceptively. That is, to lie, deception being quite common in nature. But a computer program can only make choices that the programmer previously allowed. So in effect the choices are made by the computer programmer, The programmer is the puppet master.. But such a programmed robot cannot be conscious, for there is no self to be aware. There is only the presence of electrical signals, which are objective, but no subjectivity. . Thus one might simulate life, but one can never create life in a computer. Materialism has the same fatal defect, for it is completely objective, and so cannot have a self, which is subjective, to be aware. But the notion of self and self-determination (and indetermination) is what computer science explains the best. I'm afraid that you have a pre-Gödelian notion of machine in mind. Today we have progress tremendously: we know that we don't really know what are universal machines, and what they are capable of. They escape all complete theory, and prevent psychology/theology of reductionism. Empirically, we have also good reason to bet on comp. And methodologically it is a good avenue, as this makes it possible to be able to refute comp one day, if false. Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:29 AM, rclough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: As I see it, intelligence is the ability to make choices completely on one's own. Autonomously. Intelligence involves solving problems and making good choices. Autonomy might be good or bad, depending on the context. But a computer program can only make choices that the programmer previously allowed. So in effect the choices are made by the computer programmer, The programmer only specifies the rules for making choices, but not the actual choices. furthermore, the program can change its own rules via machine learning or artificial evolution. The programmer is the puppet master.. No. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
Perhaps I am wrong, but I have a problem with the concept of artificial intelligence and hence artificial life-- at least according to my understanding of what intelligence is. As I see it, intelligence is the ability to make choices completely on one's own. Autonomously. Thus intelligence is simply self-determination of some issue. By self-determination I don't mean free will, athough that might be a possibility.The self could use anything in memory, (including current perceptions or awareness) or even anything ever thought of. Darwin tells us that such choices must be mostly appropriate choices, but sometimes they might occur mistakenly, sometimes irrationally, or deceptively. That is, to lie, deception being quite common in nature. But a computer program can only make choices that the programmer previously allowed. So in effect the choices are made by the computer programmer, The programmer is the puppet master.. But such a programmed robot cannot be conscious, for there is no self to be aware. There is only the presence of electrical signals, which are objective, but no subjectivity. . Thus one might simulate life, but one can never create life in a computer. Materialism has the same fatal defect, for it is completely objective, and so cannot have a self, which is subjective, to be aware. On Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:52:18 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: This is great news for Bruno! ;-) I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-ever/ -- Onward! Stephen Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. ~ Francis Bacon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/-c-OLZ3z8PMJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
On 8/6/2012 1:29 AM, rclough wrote: Perhaps I am wrong, but I have a problem with the concept of artificial intelligence and hence artificial life-- at least according to my understanding of what intelligence is. As I see it, intelligence is the ability to make choices completely on one's own. Autonomously. Thus intelligence is simply self-determination of some issue. By self-determination I don't mean free will, athough that might be a possibility.The self could use anything in memory, (including current perceptions or awareness) or even anything ever thought of. Darwin tells us that such choices must be mostly appropriate choices, but sometimes they might occur mistakenly, sometimes irrationally, or deceptively. That is, to lie, deception being quite common in nature. But a computer program can only make choices that the programmer previously allowed. First, that's not true. Computer programs can learn from experience and by communication - which is they way you learn. Second, evolution supplied you with a brain with certain built-in routines, such as learning a language and falling love with the opposite sex. Does that deprive you of self-determination? Can you decide to be someone you aren't? Brent So in effect the choices are made by the computer programmer, The programmer is the puppet master.. But such a programmed robot cannot be conscious, for there is no self to be aware. There is only the presence of electrical signals, which are objective, but no subjectivity. . Thus one might simulate life, but one can never create life in a computer. Materialism has the same fatal defect, for it is completely objective, and so cannot have a self, which is subjective, to be aware. On Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:52:18 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: This is great news for Bruno! ;-) I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-ever/ http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-ever/ -- Onward! Stephen Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. ~ Francis Bacon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/-c-OLZ3z8PMJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
On 22.07.2012 17:52 Stephen P. King said the following: This is great news for Bruno! ;-) I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-ever/ I do not have access to the paper at Science Direct but it might be good to browse it before making any conclusion. I would expect this to be done at the level of molecular mechanics and this is very tricky to choose the right potential. Then it is unclear how much of physical time have been simulated. 10 hours of simulation time should be at the level of nanoseconds of physical time provided they have not found a break through. Also it is unclear what boundary conditions have been employed. Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
On 22.07.2012 17:52 Stephen P. King said the following: This is great news for Bruno! ;-) I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-ever/ I have found the paper http://covertlab.stanford.edu/publicationpdfs/mgenitalium_whole_cell_2012_07_20.pdf It is just some data fitting model. I guess that physics as such is just not there. I am not impressed. You will find some better slides to this theme at http://embryogenesisexplained.com/2012/01/modelling-active-cell-processes.html See slide 8 for example. If one keeps the number of variables under 1 M then one can do it indeed. The main problem however is how to coarse the model starting from physics. It seems that there no way to do it. Evgenii -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
The siginficance is that this is one of the open problems of
Artificial Life:
@Article{Bedau-etal00,
author = {Mark A. Bedau and John S. McCaskill and Norman
H. Packard and Steen Rasmussen and Chris Adami and David G. Green
and Takashi Ikegami and Kinihiko Kaneko and Thomas S. Ray},
title ={Open Problems in Artificial Life},
journal = {Artificial Life},
year = 2000,
volume = 6,
pages ={363--376}
}
(or see http://www.alife.org/alife8/open-prob.html)
Only took 12 years. Oh well, 1 down, 13 more to go...
Cheers
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 11:52:18AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote:
This is great news for Bruno! ;-)
I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved.
http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-ever/
--
Onward!
Stephen
Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.
~ Francis Bacon
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RE: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
I, for one, remain skeptical.
wrb
-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-
l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 4:17 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the
first time ever
The siginficance is that this is one of the open problems of
Artificial Life:
@Article{Bedau-etal00,
author = {Mark A. Bedau and John S. McCaskill and Norman
H. Packard and Steen Rasmussen and Chris Adami and David G. Green
and Takashi Ikegami and Kinihiko Kaneko and Thomas S. Ray},
title = {Open Problems in Artificial Life},
journal ={Artificial Life},
year = 2000,
volume = 6,
pages = {363--376}
}
(or see http://www.alife.org/alife8/open-prob.html)
Only took 12 years. Oh well, 1 down, 13 more to go...
Cheers
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 11:52:18AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote:
This is great news for Bruno! ;-)
I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved.
http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-
scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-
ever/
--
Onward!
Stephen
Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.
~ Francis Bacon
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Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
---
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Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 11:52:18AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: This is great news for Bruno! ;-) I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering-scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time-ever/ Gives new meaning to there's a bug in your program. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
RE: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever
I think it is more like, there's a program in your bug. wrb -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything- l...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 7:41 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: scientists simulate an entire organism in software for the first time ever On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 11:52:18AM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: This is great news for Bruno! ;-) I was interested in the computational complexity factor involved. http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/21/big-leap-in-bio-engineering- scientists-simulate-an-entire-organism-in-software-for-the-first-time- ever/ Gives new meaning to there's a bug in your program. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything- list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
