[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
"jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >TurquoiseB > > Or by pondering God The Absolutely Unnecessary. :-) > > Absolutely! > Q) The theists are sufferring and the atheists are happy. How do you justify this if God exists? A) When DharmaRaja went to the upper worlds along with his father, who is the God of Justice, he saw his brothers in the hell and Kauravas in the heaven. He was shocked and asked his father about this. The God of Justice replied that his brothers have little sin and lot of fruits of good deeds. They will enjoy first the little sin in the hell and then go to the heaven forever. The Kauravas were associated with little good fruit and lot of sins. First they will enjoy that little good fruit in the heaven and go to the hell forever. This is the tradition of the administration of the Lord. Therefore good devotees will enjoy the little sin in this temporary human life and will enjoy the fruits of good deeds forever in the upper heaven. The atheists will enjoy the little good fruits in this temporary life and will go to the hell forever for their lot of sins. Another use of such arrangement is that the devotee will be tempted to become atheist seeing the happy life of the atheist in this temporary life. Thus the devotees are tested by the atheists. The adminstration of the Lord will have many angles of understanding unlike the human administration here. posted by: His servant at the lotus feet of shri datta swami www.universal-spirituality.org To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "surya" > > wrote: > > > > > > The Universe indicates the existence of God but neither gives > the > > > information of God nor the experience of God. After realising > the > > > existence of God, you can experience God through some item of > the > > > creation into which God entered. The best item of the Universe > is > > > the human being through which you can experience God and also > > > clarify your doubts with God directly. If God exist in every > human > > > being, every human being should clarify your doubts. Infact > since > > > you are also one of the human beings and since God is in > yourself > > > also, you should clarify your own doubts, which means that you > > > should not get any doubt and therefore no human being should > have > > > any doubt. Therefore, God enters into a specific human being > only > > > like Krishna or Jesus etc., who can alone clarify all your > doubts > > > and through whom alone you can experience God. > > > > > > If God exists in space, this means God is existing in this > > Universe. > > > If God is present in the Universe, the Universe cannot be a > > separate > > > object of entertainment to God. Veda says that this Universe is > > > created for His entertainment (Ekaki Na ..). If you are present > > in > > > the cinema and become the cinema by pervading all over the > cinema, > > > the cinema is not a separate object for you and therefore cannot > > > give entertainment to you. If you are the spectator of the > cinema, > > > you should be separate from the cinema. You are the separate > > subject > > > and the cinema is separate object. If the subject and object are > > one > > > and the same, there is no existence of object at all. It means > God > > > did not create this universe. If the creation is absent, there > is > > no > > > entertainment to God. This leads to the inability of God to > create > > a > > > separate object for His entertainment. Such inability makes God > > > impotent and then God cannot be omnipotent. Therefore, the > > separate > > > existence of the Universe in which God is not present, must be > > > accepted to avoid all these contradictions. > > > > > > at the lotus feet of shri datta swami > > > surya > > > www.universal-spirituality.org > > > > > the contradiction is resolved through the realization of the > > personal God and His Creation, the impersonal God. God in > > everything, and everything in God. > > Or by pondering God The Absolutely Unnecessary. :-) > Absolutely! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "surya" wrote:
>
> > at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
> > surya
> > www.universal-spirituality.org
>
> please insert the following line into the head area of each document:
>
> body{margin:0 3em;padding:0 1em;}
better:
body{margin:0 3.5em;}p {padding:0 1.5em;}
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "surya" wrote:
>
> > at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
> > surya
> > www.universal-spirituality.org
>
> please insert the following line into the head area of each document:
>
> body{margin:0 3em;padding:0 1em;}
>
"For the same reason the Kapalika followers killed Sankara .. "
http://www.universal-spirituality.org/swamiwho.htm
Never heart this before. Whats the story?
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "surya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> at the lotus feet of shri datta swami
> surya
> www.universal-spirituality.org
please insert the following line into the head area of each document:
body{margin:0 3em;padding:0 1em;}
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "surya" > wrote: > > > > The Universe indicates the existence of God but neither gives the > > information of God nor the experience of God. After realising the > > existence of God, you can experience God through some item of the > > creation into which God entered. The best item of the Universe is > > the human being through which you can experience God and also > > clarify your doubts with God directly. If God exist in every human > > being, every human being should clarify your doubts. Infact since > > you are also one of the human beings and since God is in yourself > > also, you should clarify your own doubts, which means that you > > should not get any doubt and therefore no human being should have > > any doubt. Therefore, God enters into a specific human being only > > like Krishna or Jesus etc., who can alone clarify all your doubts > > and through whom alone you can experience God. > > > > If God exists in space, this means God is existing in this > Universe. > > If God is present in the Universe, the Universe cannot be a > separate > > object of entertainment to God. Veda says that this Universe is > > created for His entertainment (Ekaki Na ..). If you are present > in > > the cinema and become the cinema by pervading all over the cinema, > > the cinema is not a separate object for you and therefore cannot > > give entertainment to you. If you are the spectator of the cinema, > > you should be separate from the cinema. You are the separate > subject > > and the cinema is separate object. If the subject and object are > one > > and the same, there is no existence of object at all. It means God > > did not create this universe. If the creation is absent, there is > no > > entertainment to God. This leads to the inability of God to create > a > > separate object for His entertainment. Such inability makes God > > impotent and then God cannot be omnipotent. Therefore, the > separate > > existence of the Universe in which God is not present, must be > > accepted to avoid all these contradictions. > > > > at the lotus feet of shri datta swami > > surya > > www.universal-spirituality.org > > > the contradiction is resolved through the realization of the > personal God and His Creation, the impersonal God. God in > everything, and everything in God. Or by pondering God The Absolutely Unnecessary. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "surya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The Universe indicates the existence of God but neither gives the > information of God nor the experience of God. After realising the > existence of God, you can experience God through some item of the > creation into which God entered. The best item of the Universe is > the human being through which you can experience God and also > clarify your doubts with God directly. If God exist in every human > being, every human being should clarify your doubts. Infact since > you are also one of the human beings and since God is in yourself > also, you should clarify your own doubts, which means that you > should not get any doubt and therefore no human being should have > any doubt. Therefore, God enters into a specific human being only > like Krishna or Jesus etc., who can alone clarify all your doubts > and through whom alone you can experience God. > > If God exists in space, this means God is existing in this Universe. > If God is present in the Universe, the Universe cannot be a separate > object of entertainment to God. Veda says that this Universe is > created for His entertainment (Ekaki Na ..). If you are present in > the cinema and become the cinema by pervading all over the cinema, > the cinema is not a separate object for you and therefore cannot > give entertainment to you. If you are the spectator of the cinema, > you should be separate from the cinema. You are the separate subject > and the cinema is separate object. If the subject and object are one > and the same, there is no existence of object at all. It means God > did not create this universe. If the creation is absent, there is no > entertainment to God. This leads to the inability of God to create a > separate object for His entertainment. Such inability makes God > impotent and then God cannot be omnipotent. Therefore, the separate > existence of the Universe in which God is not present, must be > accepted to avoid all these contradictions. > > at the lotus feet of shri datta swami > surya > www.universal-spirituality.org > the contradiction is resolved through the realization of the personal God and His Creation, the impersonal God. God in everything, and everything in God. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita - - -
The Universe indicates the existence of God but neither gives the information of God nor the experience of God. After realising the existence of God, you can experience God through some item of the creation into which God entered. The best item of the Universe is the human being through which you can experience God and also clarify your doubts with God directly. If God exist in every human being, every human being should clarify your doubts. Infact since you are also one of the human beings and since God is in yourself also, you should clarify your own doubts, which means that you should not get any doubt and therefore no human being should have any doubt. Therefore, God enters into a specific human being only like Krishna or Jesus etc., who can alone clarify all your doubts and through whom alone you can experience God. If God exists in space, this means God is existing in this Universe. If God is present in the Universe, the Universe cannot be a separate object of entertainment to God. Veda says that this Universe is created for His entertainment (Ekaki Na ..). If you are present in the cinema and become the cinema by pervading all over the cinema, the cinema is not a separate object for you and therefore cannot give entertainment to you. If you are the spectator of the cinema, you should be separate from the cinema. You are the separate subject and the cinema is separate object. If the subject and object are one and the same, there is no existence of object at all. It means God did not create this universe. If the creation is absent, there is no entertainment to God. This leads to the inability of God to create a separate object for His entertainment. Such inability makes God impotent and then God cannot be omnipotent. Therefore, the separate existence of the Universe in which God is not present, must be accepted to avoid all these contradictions. at the lotus feet of shri datta swami surya www.universal-spirituality.org To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Well, if it was merely mental, then it simply didn't refer to the goal > > of the Advaitic teaching. > > Yes. But it gave a taste and an illumination of sorts that > illuminates that path. I posted the video, watch it--I'd love to hear > your comments. I have a very slow dial up connection - in the house I live in, Telephone capacities are used up to the max - so its really frustrating for me to watch videos online. Sorry :-( To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
On Apr 11, 2006, at 6:03 PM, t3rinity wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In this case I believe what Adi Da is referring to is "talking > > school" is the Satsang "school"--it's his choice of english words > for > > his (primarily) western audience. > > No, Vaj, thats not the point here. He was referring to two schools at > Advaita, as if one was talking (shravana) and the other one was > practising (nididhysana), but that has never been a distinction within > Advaita as 'schools' Its simply a making up by AdiDa, who really > speaking is making up his own system, is more a sort of a shaktipath > guy in the Muktananda line, and that is just a different path. > That is the point Adi Da is making irregardless of what you or I think. Adi Di, in some peoples estimation, is one of the first Non-Dual adepts in America, possibly the west, to lay out the possibility of that transmission to those who were ready. Most were/are not. So he developed a graduated path till people were ready for what came to teach, what he came to transmit. According to his spiritual autobiography, he went beyond Muktananda. Did he? I cannot say. Actually Muktananda's one successor is an old friend of mine. He is an adept in Advaita Vedanta, trained and tested by a close friend of Mukti's who was a realizer of that path. You've never seen everything. Appearances aren't always what they seem. > > It is also interesting because it > > brings into play the role of *intellectual illumination* which is a > > style of realization often ignored in the satsang/Neo-advaita > > setting. I have a wonderful example of this of a Christian > meditator, > > where the entire group shared the experience. It is temporary, > > although deeply illuminating. > > > > "minimal, weak, superficial, temporary, and merely mental (or > > intellectual)" as he puts it. > > Well, if it was merely mental, then it simply didn't refer to the goal > of the Advaitic teaching. Yes. But it gave a taste and an illumination of sorts that illuminates that path. I posted the video, watch it--I'd love to hear your comments. > That may use the mind, but necessarily goes > beyond it. And unfortunately for you, Christians are not really the > authorities on Jnana Yoga or immediate enlightenment. Well this particluar person was familiar with the non-dual path of the east. Are they precisely the same? No. > Otherwise they > wouldn't be Christians anymore. They are Bhakti yogis of some sort, > and as such he simply told his opinion. Well we all have hearts. :-) > > > We should not overlook this experience of super-subtle thought. > > Which? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff
> wrote:
>
> > > Even Shankara himself stated that there
> > > cannot be a practise to 'achieve' enlightenment, only the Self can
> > > realize itself.
> >
> > Which is a statement for "teaching" but is not Truth. Its pretty funny
> > indeed. The Self wakes up and realizes ItSelf??? So the Self was
> > sleeping before??? haha.
>
> Okay, let me rephrase it: Only the Self can recognize Itself, that is
> shine upon itself, it does not need another lamp to shed light on it,
> it is the light.
Yes, we are saying the same thing. I was just enjoying the humor
sometimes contained in words and phrases.
>The question now could be: Who awakenes? The Self is
> already eternal and imutable, it
> doesn't need to awaken,
Yes, that was my point above. Again, I think we are saying similar things.
> and so is the
> witnessing consciousness.
I am unclear as to your distinction here. Two things. Ever Awake
Consciousness and witnessing consciousness.
>It is therefore the I-consciousness, the
> Jiva, the individualized soul which attains realization.
We may have semantic differences -- these words perhaps meaning
something somewhat different to each of us. The "I" is not substantial
-- a smoke and mirrors type mirage. When the "I" dissipates, then per
your "model"/"words" realization would disappear. Which is not the case.
Jivanmukti means to me individuality is liberated. In essence
extinguished. As we have discussed previously, and agreed I believe,
while a social self remains, identification with localized aspects --
body, mind, thoughts -- and thus ownership and possessiveness of
thoughts, identification with particular tastes and preferences, and
most profoundly/importantly IMO, indentification with the
decider/willer/ -- the intellect, this whole web of identification
that creates the illusion and myth of individual -- dissolves. Or at
least becomes very transparent. If this web of illusion is what is
realized, the realization dissolves. That means "realization" of CICI
is short-lived. Which is not the case.
>This is the
> conclusion of the ADVAITA BODHA DEEPIKA (lamp of non-dual knowledge -
> by Karapatra Swami who condensed it out of the work of Shankara).
>The Self and the
> witness are already always free.
Yes.
>It
> is the Jiva who possesses knowledge or is ignorant.
While this may be a short-hand way of expressing what is happening,
per above comments, it is incomplete. Even misleading.
If jiva is the collection of localized intellect, mind etc, which each
operate according to their natures, with out need of a "doer", and not
"ego" / sense of "individuality", then the statement makes sense ("It
is the Jiva who possesses knowledge or is ignorant.")
> > CICI (Consciousness is Conscious of Itself) is eternal. Not an off/on
> > phenomenon. What it is that "wakes up" locally to realize / know /
> > experience that CICI maybe a mystery of sorts. Why do some humans
> > realize IT, and a rock doesn't?
>
> The individual soul, the jivan.
>
>
> (For CICI in a rock just as much as in
> > a human.) It at least in part is triggered by understanding / insight
> > (though triggered by such, IT is not a mere understanding in itself)
> > -- available to humans via the intellect, something not available to a
> > rock. But the trigger and resulting living appreciation that CICI has
> > nothing to do with Consciousness waking up or realizing itself -from a
> > state of non-realization.)
Another way to get at the above point. (If jiva is the collection of
localized intellect, mind etc, )
> The Self is the light behind all faculties, but it is itself imutable.
> The Self doesn't need to get enlightened,
Yes, that is what we both have been saying.
>but the Jiva does so, but
> the light can only come from the Self itself, as it is the light
> within the Jiva, the intellect, the intuition and all faculties. It is
> itself unmoving, but causes everything to be moved.
Same quesions as above: for you is jiva "sense of individuality",
separate from the intellect, the intuition and all localized
faculties, or in your view is the jiva the collection of intellect,
the intuition and all localized faculties?
> > And this does open the door for an immediate trigger -- which could be
> > via satsang, or reading statements of truth, or simply deep analysis
> > and "figuring out" the insight/trigger. (And the stability of the
> > post-trigger state may vary.)
>
> Sure, there are many means. My point is not that you have to have
> Satsang, or that Shravana has to have the form of literal listening.
> And yet, this is an ancient format.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_couscous_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Even Shankara himself stated that there > > cannot be a practise to 'achieve' enlightenment, only the Self can > > realize itself. > > Which is a statement for "teaching" but is not Truth. Its pretty funny > indeed. The Self wakes up and realizes ItSelf??? So the Self was > sleeping before??? haha. Okay, let me rephrase it: Only the Self can recognize Itself, that is shine upon itself, it does not need another lamp to shed light on it, it is the light. The question now could be: Who awakenes? The Self is already eternal and imutable, it doesn't need to awaken, and so is the witnessing consciousness. It is therefore the I-consciousness, the Jiva, the individualized soul which attains realization. This is the conclusion of the ADVAITA BODHA DEEPIKA (lamp of non-dual knowledge - by Karapatra Swami who condensed it out of the work of Shankara). It is the Jiva who possesses knowledge or is ignorant. The Self and the witness are already always free. > CICI (Consciousness is Conscious of Itself) is eternal. Not an off/on > phenomenon. What it is that "wakes up" locally to realize / know / > experience that CICI maybe a mystery of sorts. Why do some humans > realize IT, and a rock doesn't? The individual soul, the jivan. (For CICI in a rock just as much as in > a human.) It at least in part is triggered by understanding / insight > (though triggered by such, IT is not a mere understanding in itself) > -- available to humans via the intellect, something not available to a > rock. But the trigger and resulting living appreciation that CICI has > nothing to do with Consciousness waking up or realizing itself -from a > state of non-realization.) The Self is the light behind all faculties, but it is itself imutable. The Self doesn't need to get enlightened, but the Jiva does so, but the light can only come from the Self itself, as it is the light within the Jiva, the intellect, the intuition and all faculties. It is itself unmoving, but causes everything to be moved. > And this does open the door for an immediate trigger -- which could be > via satsang, or reading statements of truth, or simply deep analysis > and "figuring out" the insight/trigger. (And the stability of the > post-trigger state may vary.) Sure, there are many means. My point is not that you have to have Satsang, or that Shravana has to have the form of literal listening. And yet, this is an ancient format. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In this case I believe what Adi Da is referring to is "talking > school" is the Satsang "school"--it's his choice of english words for > his (primarily) western audience. No, Vaj, thats not the point here. He was referring to two schools at Advaita, as if one was talking (shravana) and the other one was practising (nididhysana), but that has never been a distinction within Advaita as 'schools' Its simply a making up by AdiDa, who really speaking is making up his own system, is more a sort of a shaktipath guy in the Muktananda line, and that is just a different path. > It is also interesting because it > brings into play the role of *intellectual illumination* which is a > style of realization often ignored in the satsang/Neo-advaita > setting. I have a wonderful example of this of a Christian meditator, > where the entire group shared the experience. It is temporary, > although deeply illuminating. > > "minimal, weak, superficial, temporary, and merely mental (or > intellectual)" as he puts it. Well, if it was merely mental, then it simply didn't refer to the goal of the Advaitic teaching. That may use the mind, but necessarily goes beyond it. And unfortunately for you, Christians are not really the authorities on Jnana Yoga or immediate enlightenment. Otherwise they wouldn't be Christians anymore. They are Bhakti yogis of some sort, and as such he simply told his opinion. > We should not overlook this experience of super-subtle thought. Which? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
On Apr 11, 2006, at 12:43 PM, anon_couscous_ff wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Apr 11, 2006, at 10:01 AM, anon_astute_ff wrote:
> > >
> > > > The "talking" school generally attracts those who have a minimal
> > > > capability for (or capable
> > > > impulse toward) renunciation, Yogic (or Spiritual)
> discipline, and
> > > > deep meditation, but who
> > > > otherwise are habituated to constantly talk, listen, and think.
> The
> > > > "discipline" and the
> > > > "Realization" in the "talking" school (especially in its modern
> > > > form) are generally minimal,
> > > > weak, superficial, temporary, and merely mental (or
> intellectual) ,
> > > > and the "talking" school
> > > > is (and has been) rightly criticized because of this.
> > >
> > > Bingo!
> >
> > There simply is no 'talking school'. It's an invention of whomever.
> > Shravana means listening. Manana means thinking. Listening and
> > thinking go hand in hand.
>
> And need not be done in groups. ("listening" beingbroadly define as
> accepting input -- from reading, inquiry, attention on saints,etc.)
>
> > Even Shankara himself stated that there
> > cannot be a practise to 'achieve' enlightenment, only the Self can
> > realize itself.
>
> Which is a statement for "teaching" but is not Truth. Its pretty funny
> indeed. The Self wakes up and realizes ItSelf??? So the Self was
> sleeping before??? haha.
>
> CICI (Consciousness is Conscious of Itself) is eternal. Not an off/on
> phenomenon. What it is that "wakes up" locally to realize / know /
> experience that CICI maybe a mystery of sorts. Why do some humans
> realize IT, and a rock doesn't? (For CICI in a rock just as much as in
> a human.) It at least in part is triggered by understanding / insight
> (though triggered by such, IT is not a mere understanding in itself)
> -- available to humans via the intellect, something not available to a
> rock. But the trigger and resulting living appreciation that CICI has
> nothing to do with Consciousness waking up or realizing itself -from a
> state of non-realization.)
>
> And this does open the door for an immediate trigger -- which could be
> via satsang, or reading statements of truth, or simply deep analysis
> and "figuring out" the insight/trigger. (And the stability of the
> post-trigger state may vary.)
In this case I believe what Adi Da is referring to is "talking
school" is the Satsang "school"--it's his choice of english words for
his (primarily) western audience. It is also interesting because it
brings into play the role of *intellectual illumination* which is a
style of realization often ignored in the satsang/Neo-advaita
setting. I have a wonderful example of this of a Christian meditator,
where the entire group shared the experience. It is temporary,
although deeply illuminating.
"minimal, weak, superficial, temporary, and merely mental (or
intellectual)" as he puts it.
We should not overlook this experience of super-subtle thought.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Apr 11, 2006, at 10:01 AM, anon_astute_ff wrote:
> >
> > > The "talking" school generally attracts those who have a minimal
> > > capability for (or capable
> > > impulse toward) renunciation, Yogic (or Spiritual) discipline, and
> > > deep meditation, but who
> > > otherwise are habituated to constantly talk, listen, and think.
The
> > > "discipline" and the
> > > "Realization" in the "talking" school (especially in its modern
> > > form) are generally minimal,
> > > weak, superficial, temporary, and merely mental (or
intellectual) ,
> > > and the "talking" school
> > > is (and has been) rightly criticized because of this.
> >
> > Bingo!
>
> There simply is no 'talking school'. It's an invention of whomever.
> Shravana means listening. Manana means thinking. Listening and
> thinking go hand in hand.
And need not be done in groups. ("listening" beingbroadly define as
accepting input -- from reading, inquiry, attention on saints,etc.)
> Even Shankara himself stated that there
> cannot be a practise to 'achieve' enlightenment, only the Self can
> realize itself.
Which is a statement for "teaching" but is not Truth. Its pretty funny
indeed. The Self wakes up and realizes ItSelf??? So the Self was
sleeping before??? haha.
CICI (Consciousness is Conscious of Itself) is eternal. Not an off/on
phenomenon. What it is that "wakes up" locally to realize / know /
experience that CICI maybe a mystery of sorts. Why do some humans
realize IT, and a rock doesn't? (For CICI in a rock just as much as in
a human.) It at least in part is triggered by understanding / insight
(though triggered by such, IT is not a mere understanding in itself)
-- available to humans via the intellect, something not available to a
rock. But the trigger and resulting living appreciation that CICI has
nothing to do with Consciousness waking up or realizing itself -from a
state of non-realization.)
And this does open the door for an immediate trigger -- which could be
via satsang, or reading statements of truth, or simply deep analysis
and "figuring out" the insight/trigger. (And the stability of the
post-trigger state may vary.)
>For example, one chapter in Shankaras Upadesha Sahasra
> is entitled: 'How to enlighten a disciple' and it consists purely of
> dialog between teacher and disciple,interms of realizing the Atman as
> unconditional reality. No talk of tantric practises or any practise at
> all! But one thing is true: For Shankara not everyone was eligable to
> receive this knowledge: Only Brahmins who had studied the Vedas and
> who where Brahmacharins could do so. But for breaking that rule you
> have to credit already Ramana, Nisargadatta and Vivekananda. It is
> also true, that the controvery about Advaita exists already as long as
> there is Advaita.
>
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Apr 11, 2006, at 11:46 AM, t3rinity wrote: > > > It is > > also true, that the controvery about Advaita exists already as long as > > there is Advaita. > > Or Dvaita. Or Dvaitadvaita. Or Vishishtadvaita. Or Shuddadvaita. Or Bhedabheda Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
On Apr 11, 2006, at 11:46 AM, t3rinity wrote: > It is > also true, that the controvery about Advaita exists already as long as > there is Advaita. Or Dvaita. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Apr 11, 2006, at 10:01 AM, anon_astute_ff wrote: > > > The "talking" school generally attracts those who have a minimal > > capability for (or capable > > impulse toward) renunciation, Yogic (or Spiritual) discipline, and > > deep meditation, but who > > otherwise are habituated to constantly talk, listen, and think. The > > "discipline" and the > > "Realization" in the "talking" school (especially in its modern > > form) are generally minimal, > > weak, superficial, temporary, and merely mental (or intellectual) , > > and the "talking" school > > is (and has been) rightly criticized because of this. > > Bingo! There simply is no 'talking school'. It's an invention of whomever. Shravana means listening. Manana means thinking. Listening and thinking go hand in hand. Even Shankara himself stated that there cannot be a practise to 'achieve' enlightenment, only the Self can realize itself. For example, one chapter in Shankaras Upadesha Sahasra is entitled: 'How to enlighten a disciple' and it consists purely of dialog between teacher and disciple,interms of realizing the Atman as unconditional reality. No talk of tantric practises or any practise at all! But one thing is true: For Shankara not everyone was eligable to receive this knowledge: Only Brahmins who had studied the Vedas and who where Brahmacharins could do so. But for breaking that rule you have to credit already Ramana, Nisargadatta and Vivekananda. It is also true, that the controvery about Advaita exists already as long as there is Advaita. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Talking Advaita
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anon_astute_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Clearly, Shankara did affirm that listening could be sufficient for (sixth stage) Realization. Whoever wrote the above must be heavily phantasizing, as neither Shankara nor Ramana ever spoke of sixth stage realization. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
