Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Farming. Farmers, die of suicide at “four times” the rate of the general population. Farm Workers Far More Likely to Die of Suicide, Why? http://iowapublicradio.org/post/farm-workers-far-more-likely-die-suicide-why http://iowapublicradio.org/post/farm-workers-far-more-likely-die-suicide-why Farm Workers Far More Likely to Die of Suicide, Why? http://iowapublicradio.org/post/farm-workers-far-more-likely-die-suicide-why In January of 2011 when Ginnie Peters retired from the Perry Public Library, she was looking forward to spending more time with her husband, Matt, but she View on iowapublicradio.org http://iowapublicradio.org/post/farm-workers-far-more-likely-die-suicide-why Preview by Yahoo In The Making Of Megafarms, A Few Winners And Many Losers http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/06/16/321705130/in-the-making-of-megafarms-a-few-winners-and-many-losers http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/06/16/321705130/in-the-making-of-megafarms-a-few-winners-and-many-losers In The Making Of Megafarms, A Few Winners And Many ... http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/06/16/321705130/in-the-making-of-megafarms-a-few-winners-and-many-losers A tiny fraction of America's 2 million farmers produces most of our food. They are the winners of a long-running competition for land and profits that has... View on www.npr.org http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/06/16/321705130/in-the-making-of-megafarms-a-few-winners-and-many-losers Preview by Yahoo Yep, I feel the same way as 7Ray and Feste. Get off it MJ with your TM hate here. People die all the time and commit suicide too. Om come on now, there is nothing extraordinary in the suicide rates here. Divide it out how you like, it is small in the population just like most [except for farmers evidently]. Yes it is extremely disturbing when it happens and we are not without sympathy for the boy, his parents, and his communities of friends. We are all saddened and in a shock. His prospects were great, seems everyone liked him. Yes he was a child of the movement. You are making political hay with your bad thinking about causality and I feel that is appalling. Your observations may bare some general truth but your thinking is wrong trying to link it all exclusively to TM for your own agenda. Certainly the anti-TM blogs you frequent will go crazy on this. Shame on you, -Buck in the Dome SeventhRay27 writes: Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
To hell with you Buck - you are a crazy TM sycophant, nearly as deranged as Nabby and Willy Tex. Grow your beard again, go see Amma and see if Bevan will let you sit next to him in the Domes. TM and TMSP is a dead end and it will NEVER do a fucking thing for the world except create mind numbed sheep who love to keep the lazy TM leadership sitting on their thrones laughing at the idiots who are stupid enough to spend cash on shit like vedic observatory models. From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Farming. Farmers, die of suicide at “four times” the rate of the general population. Farm Workers Far More Likely to Die of Suicide, Why? Farm Workers Far More Likely to Die of Suicide, Why? In January of 2011 when Ginnie Peters retired from the Perry Public Library, she was looking forward to spending more time with her husband, Matt, but she View on iowapublicradio.org Preview by Yahoo In The Making Of Megafarms, A Few Winners And Many Losers In The Making Of Megafarms, A Few Winners And Many ... A tiny fraction of America's 2 million farmers produces most of our food. They are the winners of a long-running competition for land and profits that has... View on www.npr.org Preview by Yahoo Yep, I feel the same way as 7Ray and Feste. Get off it MJ with your TM hate here. People die all the time and commit suicide too. Om come on now, there is nothing extraordinary in the suicide rates here. Divide it out how you like, it is small in the population just like most [except for farmers evidently]. Yes it is extremely disturbing when it happens and we are not without sympathy for the boy, his parents, and his communities of friends. We are all saddened and in a shock. His prospects were great, seems everyone liked him. Yes he was a child of the movement. You are making political hay with your bad thinking about causality and I feel that is appalling. Your observations may bare some general truth but your thinking is wrong trying to link it all exclusively to TM for your own agenda. Certainly the anti-TM blogs you frequent will go crazy on this. Shame on you, -Buck in the Dome SeventhRay27 writes: Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/25/2014 11:39 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: The two FF suicides with which I'm more familiar did not have contact with people on campus. It looks like MJ is attempting to spread some fibs about the MUM campus and the students there. So, how many suicides have occurred on the MUM campus? On Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:18 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: go on campus and get real - that's where the True Believers are --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/25/2014 2:12 PM, cardemais...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Could it be that some TMers feel, at least subconsciously, like, say, 386's trying to run programs written for, say, Pentiums. So, it's all about the Pentiums? Some of us may run like 386's now, but I used to run hot like a Pentium. It's All About The Pentiums - Weird Al Yankovic http://youtu.be/qpMvS1Q1sos What do ya wanna to do? Wanna be hackers? Cold crackers? Slackers? Wasting time with all the chat-room yakkers; nine to five chilling at Hewlett Packard. Wanna run with my crew, huh? Through cyber space and crunch numbers like I do. They call me the king of the spreadsheets; got 'em all printed out on my bedsheets. My new computer's got the clocks; it rocks. But it was obsolete before I opened the box. You say you've had your desktop for over a week? Throw that junk away, man, it's an antique. Your laptop is a month old? Well, that's great, if you can use a nice, heavy, paper-weight. My digital media is write protected, every volume inspected, no viruses detected. I beta-tested every operating system, gave ops to some, on others I dissed 'em. While your computers' crashing, mine's multi-tasking. Got a flat screen monitor, forty inches wide; I believe yours says etch-a-sketch on the side. In a 32-bit world, you're a two bit user; you've got your own newsgroup - all total losers. You're motherboard melts, when you try to send a fax; where did you get that CPU? In a box of Cracker Jacks? What do ya wanna to do? Wanna be hackers? Cold crackers? Slackers? Wasting time with all the chat-room yakkers; nine to five chilling at Hewlett Packard. What? / //'Its All About the Pentiums'/ by Weird Al Yankovich From the CD 'Running With Scissors' http://youtu.be/qpMvS1Q1sos --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/25/2014 9:43 AM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: I think what might be more sad is someone who's free time is spent involving himself with an organization he left more than more 40 years ago, under guise of studying cult behavior. There's a reason for this behavior - it makes Barry look and feel more important and /much more wise/ than we are. He has been there and done that. There are those of us who wake up early in the morning /with a positive attitude/ - and there are those who stay up late at night with /a negative attitude/. Some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to, so in this sense /you are helping Barry/, by dialoging with him, no matter how briefly. Go figure. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : *From:* steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:17 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The vision of possibilities is always presented, but the core message is one of quieting the mind for 20 minutes twice a day, and the benefits which accrue from this. You actually don't seem to realize that what you call presenting a vision of possibilities is synonymous with lying. How sad for you. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/25/2014 10:08 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: I know you don't hate me but you still attribute my motivation to an erroneous assumption as to why I do what I do and since I have corrected that assumption in past posts and you still assume it, I won't address it again. All you have to do is stop using a personal tragedy to place blame, just so you can win a religious debate. It's low, real low way to win a debate. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/25/2014 10:11 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Steve you are coming close to be as much of a blabberer as WIlly Tex You're talking about an event that happened 40 years ago, but WillyTex is the blabberer? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/25/2014 11:15 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: go on campus and get real - that's where the True Believers are Now this is funny - this impostor is probably banned from the MUM campus and would be arrested if he set foot inside the school cafeteria or the golden dome. Apparently he caused a near riot up there in the dinning room one time, turning over a table and starting a food fight; and once he got kicked out of the men's dome for farting. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/25/2014 11:22 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: I won't be silent on this issue. No you won't. But how about allowing a little time to pass or a few more relevant details to come before you keep tooting your horn. As much as you might think you are helping others, I am sure the family would, if they knew there was this discussion going on, prefer you to shut up. Obviously the MJ character is prejudiced against some groups, such as Africans, Indians or Hindus. There's a reason he is using Michael Jackson as his online identity. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Now we see the larger picture - any of you who wanted to use his previous TBI which apparently was brought on by a suicide attempt as a It can't have been TM wanna mouth about it now? Nope, because you or I still know absolutely nothing about this man's history and life. Attempting suicide multiple times is hardly seeing the larger picture. The fact that this was the case is indicative of a much, much bigger story here none of which is either your or my business.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : TM strengthens the nervous-system and has proved to reduce mental problems and stress. Meditators are healthier both physically and mentally than the average population. This is old news and validated by independent scientific research long ago. ? That some meditators commit unnecessary actions doesn't change anything, ? nor that MJ and the Turq hate these facts. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so young really disturbs me. Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I missing something?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 05/24/2014 06:41 PM, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. But that was the promise, do you remember the Science of Being book? Apparently TM is better than psychiatry because it solves problems on the level of the all powerful unified field and not on the level of thoughts and emotions - which are obviously shallow in comparison. This is standard SCI thinking and TM teachers to this day will parrot it, championing TM over regular therapies. I think the trouble starts when people take Marshy and the TMO at their word and ignore their own emotions, it's easy to backtrack after a disaster and claim that it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously but people do. As we all know, it isn't better than other therapies so they should scrap the superiority complex and stop all this invincibility nonsense. MJ isn't reading these claims anymore than I was when I pointed out that someone going postal with an AK47 during a World Peace Assembly doesn't skew the results, it is the results. The drug doesn't work so they should change the marketing strategy to something a bit more realistic. It's not unreasonable to say it. Samskaras still will be there and play out even in enlightenment. Otherwise enlightened people would just be a blob doing nothing. Maharishi made a mistake giving the impression that enlightened people would be perfect when Indian philosophy says otherwise. Enlightened people just experience things from a different perspective. And just what is that supposed to mean? Is god still moving in mysterious ways? Your trouble is you want to have it all ways, he's the best teacher ever when he's right but when he's wrong it's because he has a different perspective? This is cognitive dissonance in all its unfortunate and glory. Exactly.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 05/24/2014 06:41 PM, awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. But that was the promise, do you remember the Science of Being book? Apparently TM is better than psychiatry because it solves problems on the level of the all powerful unified field and not on the level of thoughts and emotions - which are obviously shallow in comparison. This is standard SCI thinking and TM teachers to this day will parrot it, championing TM over regular therapies. Exactly. Almost the *entire* premise of Maharishi's teaching has been -- since the beginning -- that nothing is needed to solve ANY problems in life other than regular TM and a good checking every so often. And this premise has been a LIE, that entire time. I think the trouble starts when people take Marshy and the TMO at their word and ignore their own emotions, it's easy to backtrack after a disaster and claim that it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously but people do. As we all know, it isn't better than other therapies so they should scrap the superiority complex and stop all this invincibility nonsense. If they were so convinced of the supposed field of invincibility surrounding them, why are they so paranoid about someone Off The Program sneaking in to the domes and disrupting things? Why would they need dome badges? Why doesn't their awesome Woo Woo keep out the wrong people and protect them? MJ isn't reading these claims anymore than I was when I pointed out that someone going postal with an AK47 during a World Peace Assembly doesn't skew the results, it is the results. Exactly. What is supposed to be happening -- whether on a course or in a community in which the proper number of TMers has been achieved -- is something that has never existed outside the fevered imagination of fanatics. The only thing that matters is what DOES happen. According *to the TM movement's own PR and sales spiels*, suicide amongst TMers should just not be able to happen. And yet it *has* happened, and often. So the claim that such things can't happen is a LIE. This is *obvious* to non-fanatics. The question is how so many of the fanatics can't admit to believing in and living a LIE. The drug doesn't work so they should change the marketing strategy to something a bit more realistic. It's not unreasonable to say it. It's unreasonable if the marketers are stuck with having to parrot the things that the original founder of the marketing scheme originally said...forever. That is the situation that the TMO finds itself in. They can't weaken the vast volumes of Maharishisez Dogma, because...uh...Maharishi said it. And he was enlightened, so we know that he was right and these 'facts that people talk about are wrong. The facts about
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
then you have not looked at the TMO's PR lately From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Look, I left the formal TM movement back in 1981. I continued to do my program' at the local center for about 8 years after that. Yes, there was a time when I felt TM was a universal panacea, but that would have been sometime around 1976. Since then I've put it in a different perspective about what it could and could not achieve, and also came to realize that there were issues that needed a different kind of intervention. So, if TM was or is presented in the way you say, than this is somewhat news to me. And by the way, Tom Ball was a good friend of mine during my time at MIU. He was about the most off the wall and off the program fellow you probably could have found there. I remember when I saw his facebook page sometime ago and saw that he was full time movement. I think that was a good choice for him. I really can't imagine that the irreverence that was so much a part of him has given way to a strictly tow the line mentality. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You are utterly ignoring the way TM is presented to the general public and to the already meditating TM community - it is presented in the way I have already stated - as a superlative, infallible means of curing every ill. Just look at the PR. Its right there. I suggest you get the grip and look clearly at what the TMO is advertising and how they advertise it. In addition, you are not taking into account the intense pressure the TMO, esp. at MUM puts on people to conform. The idea that many people believe is that TM and all its ancillary programs IS all they need and it is very difficult for them to deal with feelings that the TMO tells them they shouldn't be having, anger, depression and so on. They feel there is something wrong with them and they can't talk about it to anyone in their environment because all the get is ignored or TM platitudes. This is a real thing you are ignoring. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
there is nothing political about it. The fact the TM is presented at 100% life supporting and a man like Mark Totten who was 100% on the program would step in front of a train and that many other long term TM'ers commit suicide or try to is something that needs to be acknowledged. I have spoken with family members of those who have done this - and according to the families, TM IS a factor, the mind numbing mental control the Movement exerts over true believers is a factor. You don't want to believe it, that's not surprising. From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Yep, I feel the same way as 7Ray and Feste. Get off it MJ with your TM hate here. People die all the time and commit suicide too. Om come on now, there is nothing extraordinary in the suicide rates here. Divide it out how you like, it is small in the population just like most . Yes it is extremely disturbing when it happens and we are not without sympathy for the boy, his parents, and his communities of friends. We are all saddened and in a shock. His prospects were great, seems everyone liked him. Yes he was a child of the movement. You are making political hay with your bad thinking about causality and I feel that is appalling. Your observations may bare some general truth but your thinking is wrong trying to link it all exclusively to TM for your own agenda. Certainly the anti-TM blogs you frequent will go crazy on this. Shame on you, -Buck in the Dome SeventhRay27 writes: Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Thanks Barry - and I will add, again, that on the Remembering Serenity facebook page, dedicated to the siddha lady who took her own life last year, a former MUM student posted this: . ever since I was a student at MUM (I started in 2008) students have requested this dialog and attempted to organize events, but were shut down repeatedly and with benign intentions to protect our consciousness (actual policy wording) . So Ann, Feste, Steve and Buck, ignore, defend, and make excuses all you like, revile me all you like but these TM suicides have been around since the 1960's and they aren't gonna go away. Talk to some of the people who were on the old course where heavy unstressing was rampant and see if you can get the idea that maybe TM DOES have effects that can lead to extreme consequences. I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. I guess you're are doing what what most extreme partisans do. You play whatever side of the issue suits you at the time. And then, if it were to suit you to play a different side, you'd flip the argument. Ignore the obvious fact, that there are mitigating circumstances and assume that anyone who factors in the injury and coma is just doing so to deflect some other issue. What you conveniently miss, is that it was Michael who from the outset was the one glomming onto a cause. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. And it is quite an assumption you make about seeking outside intervention to help with emotional issues. You might as well admit, that you have no idea if this is true, having left the movement over 40 years ago. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous! From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. I'll tell you what is ludicrous and that is that this young man is barely cold and opportunists, who know nothing about him and his life, are using him to further their anti-whatever agenda. I don't give a shit about TM or The Movement. What I give a shit about is for others who are not immediate family members to shut the fuck up and mind their own damn business. Period. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Thanks Barry - and I will add, again, that on the Remembering Serenity facebook page, dedicated to the siddha lady who took her own life last year, a former MUM student posted this: . ever since I was a student at MUM (I started in 2008) students have requested this dialog and attempted to organize events, but were shut down repeatedly and with benign intentions to protect our consciousness (actual policy wording) . So Ann, Feste, Steve and Buck, ignore, defend, and make excuses all you like, revile me all you like but these TM suicides have been around since the 1960's and they aren't gonna go away. Talk to some of the people who were on the old course where heavy unstressing was rampant and see if you can get the idea that maybe TM DOES have effects that can lead to extreme consequences. MJ, I don't revile you and that's because I simply don't care about TM and the Movement. I just think that you are far too simplistic in your arguments and that you carry around an inordinate amount of grudge for your mistreatment at the hands of certain assholes who treated you like dirt while working at MIU. That you have made it your life's mission to continue to carry the banner of TM is a Sham is sort of silly to me, but then it's your life. Nevertheless, that's my opinion but I hardly hate you for it. I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. Like I said too many times already (and here is where your simplistic interpretation of the promises of TM lie) people, no matter what they do for a living, what meditation they practice, what cereal they eat in the morning or what aftershave they use will still, statistically, fall prey to mishap, disease, psychiatric troubles and death. Apparently at one time you believed all that TM supposedly promised and are now disappointed, seemingly, because you thought by doing TM you would live forever, never become diseased or ever trip on a crack in the sidewalk because every law of nature would be at your beck and call. Oky. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/24/2014 10:44 AM, salyavin808 wrote: Any religious education disturbs me actually, The government should probably close down all the religious schools in Great Britain and convert them to secular schools. Then, after a few years of indoctrination, the government could close down all the churches in England. After that, it would be quite easy to arrest all the remaining True Believers and force them into a rehabilitation program, or expel them to another country in the Middle East.or India. It's just outrageous teaching these young minds creation myths and foreign languages in schools! It bothers people when one of the students appeals for donations to their school - it is very disturbing these students asking for money for school projects like that. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Michael, You have a fantasy that people don't want you to bring up instances of suicide or other problems in the TMO. Maybe take a look at this seeming need of yours to be some kind of pariah standing up the menacing TMO machine. If you don't like feedback in the form of facts, or other circumstances that go against you narrative, perhaps you are on the wrong forum. And of course, the default, CULT APOLOGIST, CULT APOLOGIST, is just a convenient distraction. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Thanks Barry - and I will add, again, that on the Remembering Serenity facebook page, dedicated to the siddha lady who took her own life last year, a former MUM student posted this: . ever since I was a student at MUM (I started in 2008) students have requested this dialog and attempted to organize events, but were shut down repeatedly and with benign intentions to protect our consciousness (actual policy wording) . So Ann, Feste, Steve and Buck, ignore, defend, and make excuses all you like, revile me all you like but these TM suicides have been around since the 1960's and they aren't gonna go away. Talk to some of the people who were on the old course where heavy unstressing was rampant and see if you can get the idea that maybe TM DOES have effects that can lead to extreme consequences. I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/24/2014 1:57 PM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : OMG! Mr. Freak forgot the attributions. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 5/24/2014 2:11 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. Never pass up a tragedy in order to win a religious debate. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. Steve, you are truly living with blinders on if you do not realize and recognize there are TONS of people who swallow the TMO's schtick hook, line and sinker - lots of them live and work at MUM. They are the ones who were so shocked when the pundits rioted a few weeks ago. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. I guess you're are doing what what most extreme partisans do. You play whatever side of the issue suits you at the time. And then, if it were to suit you to play a different side, you'd flip the argument. Ignore the obvious fact, that there are mitigating circumstances and assume that anyone who factors in the injury and coma is just doing so to deflect some other issue. What you conveniently miss, is that it was Michael who from the outset was the one glomming onto a cause. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. And it is quite an assumption you make about seeking outside intervention to help with emotional issues. You might as well admit, that you have no idea if this is true, having left the movement over 40 years ago. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous! From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. I'll tell you what is ludicrous and that is that this young man is barely cold and opportunists, who know nothing about him and his life, are using him to further their anti-whatever agenda. I don't give a shit about TM or The Movement. What I give a shit about is for others who are not immediate family members to shut the fuck up and mind their own damn business. Period. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
I know you don't hate me but you still attribute my motivation to an erroneous assumption as to why I do what I do and since I have corrected that assumption in past posts and you still assume it, I won't address it again. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Thanks Barry - and I will add, again, that on the Remembering Serenity facebook page, dedicated to the siddha lady who took her own life last year, a former MUM student posted this: . ever since I was a student at MUM (I started in 2008) students have requested this dialog and attempted to organize events, but were shut down repeatedly and with benign intentions to protect our consciousness (actual policy wording) . So Ann, Feste, Steve and Buck, ignore, defend, and make excuses all you like, revile me all you like but these TM suicides have been around since the 1960's and they aren't gonna go away. Talk to some of the people who were on the old course where heavy unstressing was rampant and see if you can get the idea that maybe TM DOES have effects that can lead to extreme consequences. MJ, I don't revile you and that's because I simply don't care about TM and the Movement. I just think that you are far too simplistic in your arguments and that you carry around an inordinate amount of grudge for your mistreatment at the hands of certain assholes who treated you like dirt while working at MIU. That you have made it your life's mission to continue to carry the banner of TM is a Sham is sort of silly to me, but then it's your life. Nevertheless, that's my opinion but I hardly hate you for it. I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. Like I said too many times already (and here is where your simplistic interpretation of the promises of TM lie) people, no matter what they do for a living, what meditation they practice, what cereal they eat in the morning or what aftershave they use will still, statistically, fall prey to mishap, disease, psychiatric troubles and death. Apparently at one time you believed all that TM supposedly promised and are now disappointed, seemingly, because you thought by doing TM you would live forever, never become diseased or ever trip on a crack in the sidewalk because every law of nature would be at your beck and call. Oky. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Steve you are coming close to be as much of a blabberer as WIlly Tex - I am hardly a pariah, I am one of many former TM'ers who speak up. You want to create fantasy about who I am and why I do what I do, go ahead. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, You have a fantasy that people don't want you to bring up instances of suicide or other problems in the TMO. Maybe take a look at this seeming need of yours to be some kind of pariah standing up the menacing TMO machine. If you don't like feedback in the form of facts, or other circumstances that go against you narrative, perhaps you are on the wrong forum. And of course, the default, CULT APOLOGIST, CULT APOLOGIST, is just a convenient distraction. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Thanks Barry - and I will add, again, that on the Remembering Serenity facebook page, dedicated to the siddha lady who took her own life last year, a former MUM student posted this: . ever since I was a student at MUM (I started in 2008) students have requested this dialog and attempted to organize events, but were shut down repeatedly and with benign intentions to protect our consciousness (actual policy wording) . So Ann, Feste, Steve and Buck, ignore, defend, and make excuses all you like, revile me all you like but these TM suicides have been around since the 1960's and they aren't gonna go away. Talk to some of the people who were on the old course where heavy unstressing was rampant and see if you can get the idea that maybe TM DOES have effects that can lead to extreme consequences. I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Probably even the people who knew these individuals in person for a long time realize that on some level, they also don't know what really happened. And I think it's actually quite irresponsible to pin it on long term TM practice. Because such thinking might cause someone to ignore other significant factors, such as postpartum depression for example. On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:06 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. I'll tell you what is ludicrous and that is that this young man is barely cold and opportunists, who know nothing about him and his life, are using him to further their anti-whatever agenda. I don't give a shit about TM or The Movement. What I give a shit about is for others who are not immediate family members to shut the fuck up and mind their own damn business. Period. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Michael, you obviously have not been to Fairfield in a long time if you think there are *TONS* of long term TMers here who are what turq calls TBers. It's simply not the case. And why? IMO because TM increases field independence! By its very nature, TM prevents the creation of TBers and a cult. Go figure! On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:03 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. Steve, you are truly living with blinders on if you do not realize and recognize there are TONS of people who swallow the TMO's schtick hook, line and sinker - lots of them live and work at MUM. They are the ones who were so shocked when the pundits rioted a few weeks ago. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. I guess you're are doing what what most extreme partisans do. You play whatever side of the issue suits you at the time. And then, if it were to suit you to play a different side, you'd flip the argument. Ignore the obvious fact, that there are mitigating circumstances and assume that anyone who factors in the injury and coma is just doing so to deflect some other issue. What you conveniently miss, is that it was Michael who from the outset was the one glomming onto a cause. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. And it is quite an assumption you make about seeking outside intervention to help with emotional issues. You might as well admit, that you have no idea if this is true, having left the movement over 40 years ago. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous! From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
The important question is not why did the person commit suicide, but rather, did they feel free to seek help, and were mental health counseling and treatment easily available (and affordable), without stigma? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Probably even the people who knew these individuals in person for a long time realize that on some level, they also don't know what really happened. And I think it's actually quite irresponsible to pin it on long term TM practice. Because such thinking might cause someone to ignore other significant factors, such as postpartum depression for example. On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:06 AM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Judy, mental health counseling is available in FF. Some counselors use a sliding scale. OTOH, in 2 of the cases I'd say that cost of therapy would not be an issue. Also in those 2 cases, the parents were and are not what I would call TM TBers. So no stigma about seeking help in that regard. On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:45 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: The important question is not why did the person commit suicide, but rather, did they feel free to seek help, and were mental health counseling and treatment easily available (and affordable), without stigma? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Probably even the people who knew these individuals in person for a long time realize that on some level, they also don't know what really happened. And I think it's actually quite irresponsible to pin it on long term TM practice. Because such thinking might cause someone to ignore other significant factors, such as postpartum depression for example. On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:06 AM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 05/25/2014 12:54 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 05/24/2014 06:41 PM, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. But that was the promise, do you remember the Science of Being book? Apparently TM is better than psychiatry because it solves problems on the level of the all powerful unified field and not on the level of thoughts and emotions - which are obviously shallow in comparison. This is standard SCI thinking and TM teachers to this day will parrot it, championing TM over regular therapies. I think the trouble starts when people take Marshy and the TMO at their word and ignore their own emotions, it's easy to backtrack after a disaster and claim that it wasn't supposed to be taken seriously but people do. As we all know, it isn't /better/ than other therapies so they should scrap the superiority complex and stop all this invincibility nonsense. MJ isn't /reading /these claims anymore than I was when I pointed out that someone going postal with an AK47 during a World Peace Assembly doesn't /skew/ the results, it /is/ the results. The drug doesn't work so they should change the marketing strategy to something a bit more realistic. It's not unreasonable to say it. Samskaras still will be there and play out even in enlightenment. Otherwise enlightened people would just be a blob doing nothing. Maharishi made a mistake giving the impression that enlightened people would be perfect when Indian philosophy says otherwise. Enlightened people just experience things from a different perspective. And just what is that supposed to mean? Is god still moving in mysterious ways? Your trouble is you want to have it all ways, he's the best teacher ever when he's right but when he's wrong it's because he has a different perspective? This is cognitive dissonance in all its unfortunate and glory. A wee bit of confusion here. MMY often just regurgitated standard Indian yogic philosophy. Nothing wrong with that. Most westerners weren't familiar with it. Whether he intended it or not however most westerners got the idea that enlightened people would behave perfectly. They don't. What I said above is something that
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
go on campus and get real - that's where the True Believers are From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, you obviously have not been to Fairfield in a long time if you think there are *TONS* of long term TMers here who are what turq calls TBers. It's simply not the case. And why? IMO because TM increases field independence! By its very nature, TM prevents the creation of TBers and a cult. Go figure! On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:03 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. Steve, you are truly living with blinders on if you do not realize and recognize there are TONS of people who swallow the TMO's schtick hook, line and sinker - lots of them live and work at MUM. They are the ones who were so shocked when the pundits rioted a few weeks ago. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. I guess you're are doing what what most extreme partisans do. You play whatever side of the issue suits you at the time. And then, if it were to suit you to play a different side, you'd flip the argument. Ignore the obvious fact, that there are mitigating circumstances and assume that anyone who factors in the injury and coma is just doing so to deflect some other issue. What you conveniently miss, is that it was Michael who from the outset was the one glomming onto a cause. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. And it is quite an assumption you make about seeking outside intervention to help with emotional issues. You might as well admit, that you have no idea if this is true, having left the movement over 40 years ago. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous! From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue. No you won't. But how about allowing a little time to pass or a few more relevant details to come before you keep tooting your horn. As much as you might think you are helping others, I am sure the family would, if they knew there was this discussion going on, prefer you to shut up. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. I'll tell you what is ludicrous and that is that this young man is barely cold and opportunists, who know nothing about him and his life, are using him to further their anti-whatever agenda. I don't give a shit about TM or The Movement. What I give a shit about is for others who are not immediate family members to shut the fuck up and mind their own damn business. Period. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
The two FF suicides with which I'm more familiar did not have contact with people on campus. On Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:18 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: go on campus and get real - that's where the True Believers are From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, you obviously have not been to Fairfield in a long time if you think there are *TONS* of long term TMers here who are what turq calls TBers. It's simply not the case. And why? IMO because TM increases field independence! By its very nature, TM prevents the creation of TBers and a cult. Go figure! On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:03 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. Steve, you are truly living with blinders on if you do not realize and recognize there are TONS of people who swallow the TMO's schtick hook, line and sinker - lots of them live and work at MUM. They are the ones who were so shocked when the pundits rioted a few weeks ago. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. I guess you're are doing what what most extreme partisans do. You play whatever side of the issue suits you at the time. And then, if it were to suit you to play a different side, you'd flip the argument. Ignore the obvious fact, that there are mitigating circumstances and assume that anyone who factors in the injury and coma is just doing so to deflect some other issue. What you conveniently miss, is that it was Michael who from the outset was the one glomming onto a cause. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. And it is quite an assumption you make about seeking outside intervention to help with emotional issues. You might as well admit, that you have no idea if this is true, having left the movement over 40 years ago. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous! From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
MJ writes: I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. Let's just put it this way with regard to your theories on suicide and TM: I think your objectivity is lacking, your logic is superficial and your conclusions unsupported.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
I was not asking just about the two cases you happen to know about. The issue is the attitude of the community toward treatment of mental health issues, and how that affects the willingness of people with such problems to seek help. Do family and friends encourage and support the person getting treatment? Do they recommend it even if the person is reluctant? Are there people in the community who stigmatize it? How available is it (wait times for an appointment?), and how effective is it? How many counselors are there, what are their qualifications, and are they themselves TB TMers? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Judy, mental health counseling is available in FF. Some counselors use a sliding scale. OTOH, in 2 of the cases I'd say that cost of therapy would not be an issue. Also in those 2 cases, the parents were and are not what I would call TM TBers. So no stigma about seeking help in that regard. On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:45 AM, authfriend@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: The important question is not why did the person commit suicide, but rather, did they feel free to seek help, and were mental health counseling and treatment easily available (and affordable), without stigma? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Probably even the people who knew these individuals in person for a long time realize that on some level, they also don't know what really happened. And I think it's actually quite irresponsible to pin it on long term TM practice. Because such thinking might cause someone to ignore other significant factors, such as postpartum depression for example. On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:06 AM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Sure Michael, you are in the know about all this I presume. When was it again that you left MIU. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. Steve, you are truly living with blinders on if you do not realize and recognize there are TONS of people who swallow the TMO's schtick hook, line and sinker - lots of them live and work at MUM. They are the ones who were so shocked when the pundits rioted a few weeks ago. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. I guess you're are doing what what most extreme partisans do. You play whatever side of the issue suits you at the time. And then, if it were to suit you to play a different side, you'd flip the argument. Ignore the obvious fact, that there are mitigating circumstances and assume that anyone who factors in the injury and coma is just doing so to deflect some other issue. What you conveniently miss, is that it was Michael who from the outset was the one glomming onto a cause. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. And it is quite an assumption you make about seeking outside intervention to help with emotional issues. You might as well admit, that you have no idea if this is true, having left the movement over 40 years ago. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous! From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
you contradict yourself in a matter of two sentences and are too dimwitted to realize it. or harboring a bias bordering on hatred and let's face it, what makes you go vocal on any opportunity to impugn TM - any negative comment, from any source, vetted, or unvetted and what do you do when caught in a blatant inaccuracy? Go silent ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. I'll tell you what is ludicrous and that is that this young man is barely cold and opportunists, who know nothing about him and his life, are using him to further their anti-whatever agenda. I don't give a shit about TM or The Movement. What I give a shit about is for others who are not immediate family members to shut the fuck up and mind their own damn business. Period. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
As Ronald Reagan once said, There he goes again. I figure you'd play the Cult Apologist card, or some variation thereof. At least you are right on schedule, Michael. But couldya please be not some damned predictable. Really! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve you are coming close to be as much of a blabberer as WIlly Tex - I am hardly a pariah, I am one of many former TM'ers who speak up. You want to create fantasy about who I am and why I do what I do, go ahead. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, You have a fantasy that people don't want you to bring up instances of suicide or other problems in the TMO. Maybe take a look at this seeming need of yours to be some kind of pariah standing up the menacing TMO machine. If you don't like feedback in the form of facts, or other circumstances that go against you narrative, perhaps you are on the wrong forum. And of course, the default, CULT APOLOGIST, CULT APOLOGIST, is just a convenient distraction. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Thanks Barry - and I will add, again, that on the Remembering Serenity facebook page, dedicated to the siddha lady who took her own life last year, a former MUM student posted this: . ever since I was a student at MUM (I started in 2008) students have requested this dialog and attempted to organize events, but were shut down repeatedly and with benign intentions to protect our consciousness (actual policy wording) . So Ann, Feste, Steve and Buck, ignore, defend, and make excuses all you like, revile me all you like but these TM suicides have been around since the 1960's and they aren't gonna go away. Talk to some of the people who were on the old course where heavy unstressing was rampant and see if you can get the idea that maybe TM DOES have effects that can lead to extreme consequences. I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
and you know this because the last time you were on campus was 20 years ago? do I have that right? or tell me then, how long ago was it? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : go on campus and get real - that's where the True Believers are From: Share Long sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, you obviously have not been to Fairfield in a long time if you think there are *TONS* of long term TMers here who are what turq calls TBers. It's simply not the case. And why? IMO because TM increases field independence! By its very nature, TM prevents the creation of TBers and a cult. Go figure! On Sunday, May 25, 2014 10:03 AM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. Steve, you are truly living with blinders on if you do not realize and recognize there are TONS of people who swallow the TMO's schtick hook, line and sinker - lots of them live and work at MUM. They are the ones who were so shocked when the pundits rioted a few weeks ago. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. I guess you're are doing what what most extreme partisans do. You play whatever side of the issue suits you at the time. And then, if it were to suit you to play a different side, you'd flip the argument. Ignore the obvious fact, that there are mitigating circumstances and assume that anyone who factors in the injury and coma is just doing so to deflect some other issue. What you conveniently miss, is that it was Michael who from the outset was the one glomming onto a cause. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. Yes, it is true that from the outset the vision of possibilities offered was an Ideal Society, Full Potential, etc. But who, at any time did not put that in some kind of perspective and make an internal adjustment of what was actually possible, and what was laid out as grand plan. And as has been mentioned previously, the founder of the movement, may have believed that it was possible. And it is quite an assumption you make about seeking outside intervention to help with emotional issues. You might as well admit, that you have no idea if this is true, having left the movement over 40 years ago. Doesn't that sound a little ridiculous! From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
unsupported??? By what? The suicides happened and keep happening - the whole point is that TM has negative effects for some people and this keeps getting ignored and swept under the rug. It doesn't always lead to suicide, but I have seen it myself a number of times at various Movement facilities especially MIU. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF MJ writes: I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. Let's just put it this way with regard to your theories on suicide and TM: I think your objectivity is lacking, your logic is superficial and your conclusions unsupported.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
what blatant inaccuracy you are talking about? From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF you contradict yourself in a matter of two sentences and are too dimwitted to realize it. or harboring a bias bordering on hatred and let's face it, what makes you go vocal on any opportunity to impugn TM - any negative comment, from any source, vetted, or unvetted and what do you do when caught in a blatant inaccuracy? Go silent ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : you don't know anything about his life either or what led him to suicide, nor do any of us know what caused Serenity to do so last year, or my friend Mark Totten, or any of the other siddhas/governors/purushas who have killed themselves over the years - the common denominator is long term TM and TMSP practice and I said before I won't be silent on this issue. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. I'll tell you what is ludicrous and that is that this young man is barely cold and opportunists, who know nothing about him and his life, are using him to further their anti-whatever agenda. I don't give a shit about TM or The Movement. What I give a shit about is for others who are not immediate family members to shut the fuck up and mind their own damn business. Period. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : unsupported??? By what? The suicides happened and keep happening - the whole point is that TM has negative effects for some people and this keeps getting ignored and swept under the rug. It doesn't always lead to suicide, but I have seen it myself a number of times at various Movement facilities especially MIU. Who is ignoring suicides? Not you, not me, not the friends and families. TM's Negative effects is a general statement unsupported here. When you find out this current suicide's medical history, his mental condition for the last ten years, get an inside track on his personal life and what he communicated to family and friends and professionals in his last months on Earth get back to me. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF MJ writes: I was talking on the phone last night to a former MIU staff and student friend who was telling me about his friend Brian Henchcliff who killed himself back in the 80's. It won't go away because you don't like me bringing it up. Let's just put it this way with regard to your theories on suicide and TM: I think your objectivity is lacking, your logic is superficial and your conclusions unsupported.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so young really disturbs me. Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I missing something?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so young really disturbs me. Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I missing something?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice, some were told to do it for only a few, maybe five minutes. Mark my words, when someone collects the info on all these TM suicides and makes it public, it will be the beginning of the downfall of the Movement. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
And by the way, I invite you to go tell the families of Mark Totten and the man who set himself on fire in Marshy's house that my assumptions are skewed. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so young really disturbs me. Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I missing something?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. This is extremely interesting, if true it's a really dangerous and irresponsible thing to do. I don't know of any suicides in the UK TMO, certainly not an epidemic, but I know of a few stretcher cases and have met a lot of TMSP'ers who got extra help from therapists of one sort or another. Can't say if it's more than in the general population but the thing is obviously that TM isn't working in the way it's supposed to. It didn't for me either. I gave up the siddhis when I realised it was doing me no favours at all. The danger is that the dogma surrounding TM encourages you to think that you are doing the best possible thing for yourself and you ignore the danger signs. Obviously some ignore it until it's too late. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so young really disturbs me. Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I missing something?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
TM strengthens the nervous-system and has proved to reduce mental problems and stress. Meditators are healthier both physically and mentally than the average population. This is old news and validated by independent scientific research long ago. That some meditators commit unnecessary actions doesn't change anything, nor that MJ and the Turq hate these facts. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people are committing suicide including one purusha man who set himself on fire in Marshy's basement in Vlodrop, then a serious look at the negative effects of long term TM needs to be looked at. One man I spoke with whose siddha wife has twice attempted suicide said he could think of at least half a dozen suicides by long term TM'ers without even trying. This is a man raised in FF by parent TM'ers. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:57 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm Now this is supremely sad. It certainly is.Suicide is possibly the worst way to lose someone close to you, not only do you have to cope with the unexpected loss you can also have the guilty feelings that you didn't know it was coming and should have been able to stop it. But the reality is you can't. I am chilled by the language used in his plea for donations though. I expect this level of zeal from people who convert to the TM belief system when they are adults but to see that level of believerism in someone so young really disturbs me. Any religious education disturbs me actually, I don't think we have the right to influence development in this way. Religion is like language, the first one you learn stays with you as part of you. Save it until you are grown up and wise enough to know better I say, childhood should be for exploration and learning how to judge things critically. But we don't know why he killed himself. It could have nothing to do with TM or his participation in it. Just because a tennis player kills themselves doesn't mean it was because they were disillusioned by tennis. There could be millions of other factors coming to play here. Or, am I missing something?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice, some were told to do it for only a few, maybe five minutes. Mark my words, when someone collects the info on all these TM suicides and makes it public, it will be the beginning of the downfall of the Movement. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue to me is the fact that TM and TMSP plus all the other TM programs, nostrums and snake oil are touted as being 100% life supporting with NO negative side effect or negative effects of any kind. Yet people still get depressed and experience other negative emotions and there is no way for them to deal with it in the Movement except ignore it and get the meditation checked which is a joke. If you talk as I have to people raised in the Movement, there is tremendous pressure from peers, older adults and official Movement people to not talk about such things, just keep your head down and praise MArshy and the Movement. When you have long term TM'ers practice mental techniques that are SUPPOSED to make life perfect (if you believe the hype the TMO puts out) and people
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Steve you are missing a lot yourself, beginning with your assertion that I have a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. Where the hell do you think I got that notion? Look at the TM literature, look at the crap Tom Ball, Bob Roth and Ken Chawkin just to name a few of the TM shills out there, look at the PR they constantly bandy about as to the effects of TM. The TMO and Marshy in his day say TM is for EVERYONE. It is 100% life supporting with NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS. None at all. I don't have any misguided notions of what I think TM is capable of doing. I know it is much much less than the TMO advertises. The assertions I refer to are purely what Marshy and the TMO advertise. When it is presented the way it is, when the real effects are quite different (the so-called unstressing) AND when you add to those two things the constant and unrelenting habit the TM leaders and managers have of refuting all evidence off problems, and the TMO's response to people with real problems You're just unstressing. Get your meditation checked. You have with all those things together a recipe for disaster. If TM is as advertised, suicide would not happen in long term TM populations and you know it. For God's sake these asses claim to be able to create world peace and the result is pundits rioting. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice, some were told to do it for only a few, maybe five minutes. Mark my words, when someone collects the info on all these TM suicides and makes it public, it will be the beginning of the downfall of the Movement. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice, some were told to do it for only a few, maybe five minutes. Mark my words, when someone collects the info on all these TM suicides and makes it public, it will be the beginning of the downfall of the Movement. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident), nobody seems to change any else's mind around here. Well at least on core issues. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I think you are missing something. To me it is something that the Movement will obviously never address, since it would entail them admitting that TM is not all one needs in life and they would have to admit that there seemingly ARE side effects to long term practice to TM, especially when one is rounding. I knew Mark Totten, purusha siddha who committed suicide by stepping in front of a moving train just off campus in Fairfield, there was a young woman siddha who killed herself there in FF last year. I was looking at the facebook page dedicated to her life and memory and say a post by a woman who went to MUM saying that a number of students had attempted over the years to have some sort of dialogue or support groups for those who were feeling depressed or that sort of thing and as she put it the Movement shut them down quickly each time. She also said that from talking to the TM adults she knows, this Movement behavior has been going on a long time. The issue
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
On 05/24/2014 06:41 PM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. Samskaras still will be there and play out even in enlightenment. Otherwise enlightened people would just be a blob doing nothing. Maharishi made a mistake giving the impression that enlightened people would be perfect when Indian philosophy says otherwise. Enlightened people just experience things from a different perspective.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 05/24/2014 06:41 PM, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. Samskaras still will be there and play out even in enlightenment. Otherwise enlightened people would just be a blob doing nothing. Maharishi made a mistake giving the impression that enlightened people would be perfect when Indian philosophy says otherwise. Enlightened people just experience things from a different perspective. Exactly.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
feste, you are correct. This young man suffered a serious head trauma and was in a coma less than 2 years ago. I too wonder if there was a lingering injury deep in the brain from that accident. They are a well loved family in the community and are being gently supported during this time. On Saturday, May 24, 2014 9:10 PM, feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
The claim that the practice of TM is 100% is a bold claim to make, but I guess you could defend in on a theoretical basis by stating the the technique relies on the natural state of the mind to go to a field of greater charm, etc. The claim is that pure consciousness is the home of all the laws of nature etc. Look, I'm not defending it, I'm just saying what is the rationale behind it. Do with it what you want. But here's where I think you get off track. You have this notion that it is always a straight line to go from point A to point B, and rarely is it a straight line in real life. If you are talking about spiritual development, it is a path fraught with peril, at least in my experience. So, for you to say that the effects of TM and expanding of awareness may be too much for some to handle, I'd have to say you are correct. I've seen it myself. But as Jim said a couple days ago, I'm not sure what other pursuit is more worthwhile. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve you are missing a lot yourself, beginning with your assertion that I have a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. Where the hell do you think I got that notion? Look at the TM literature, look at the crap Tom Ball, Bob Roth and Ken Chawkin just to name a few of the TM shills out there, look at the PR they constantly bandy about as to the effects of TM. The TMO and Marshy in his day say TM is for EVERYONE. It is 100% life supporting with NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS. None at all. I don't have any misguided notions of what I think TM is capable of doing. I know it is much much less than the TMO advertises. The assertions I refer to are purely what Marshy and the TMO advertise. When it is presented the way it is, when the real effects are quite different (the so-called unstressing) AND when you add to those two things the constant and unrelenting habit the TM leaders and managers have of refuting all evidence off problems, and the TMO's response to people with real problems You're just unstressing. Get your meditation checked. You have with all those things together a recipe for disaster. If TM is as advertised, suicide would not happen in long term TM populations and you know it. For God's sake these asses claim to be able to create world peace and the result is pundits rioting. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
You are utterly ignoring the way TM is presented to the general public and to the already meditating TM community - it is presented in the way I have already stated - as a superlative, infallible means of curing every ill. Just look at the PR. Its right there. I suggest you get the grip and look clearly at what the TMO is advertising and how they advertise it. In addition, you are not taking into account the intense pressure the TMO, esp. at MUM puts on people to conform. The idea that many people believe is that TM and all its ancillary programs IS all they need and it is very difficult for them to deal with feelings that the TMO tells them they shouldn't be having, anger, depression and so on. They feel there is something wrong with them and they can't talk about it to anyone in their environment because all the get is ignored or TM platitudes. This is a real thing you are ignoring. From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM, but if it REALLY is fabulous for you, why aren't you working for the Movement and living in a TM facility. Be real with it Steve. Even Charlie Lutes said that TM was not for everyone. He said that from time to time in lectures. When people would come to Charlie with problems, he would sometimes tell them to cut back on the TM practice, some were told to do it for only a few, maybe five minutes. Mark my words, when someone collects the info on all these TM suicides and makes it public, it will be the beginning of the downfall of the Movement. From: steve.sundur@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF This is the continuous loop you always resort to at times like these, but it is so full of wrong or skewed assumptions, that who really wants to rebut them over and over. Like Ann recently said, (which was really nothing that was not quite evident
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Look, I left the formal TM movement back in 1981. I continued to do my program' at the local center for about 8 years after that. Yes, there was a time when I felt TM was a universal panacea, but that would have been sometime around 1976. Since then I've put it in a different perspective about what it could and could not achieve, and also came to realize that there were issues that needed a different kind of intervention. So, if TM was or is presented in the way you say, than this is somewhat news to me. And by the way, Tom Ball was a good friend of mine during my time at MIU. He was about the most off the wall and off the program fellow you probably could have found there. I remember when I saw his facebook page sometime ago and saw that he was full time movement. I think that was a good choice for him. I really can't imagine that the irreverence that was so much a part of him has given way to a strictly tow the line mentality. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : You are utterly ignoring the way TM is presented to the general public and to the already meditating TM community - it is presented in the way I have already stated - as a superlative, infallible means of curing every ill. Just look at the PR. Its right there. I suggest you get the grip and look clearly at what the TMO is advertising and how they advertise it. In addition, you are not taking into account the intense pressure the TMO, esp. at MUM puts on people to conform. The idea that many people believe is that TM and all its ancillary programs IS all they need and it is very difficult for them to deal with feelings that the TMO tells them they shouldn't be having, anger, depression and so on. They feel there is something wrong with them and they can't talk about it to anyone in their environment because all the get is ignored or TM platitudes. This is a real thing you are ignoring. From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Michael, You just miss the point. I am no great TM defender. But you start with a misguided notion of what the practice of TM is capable of doing. And on that basis you make connections about what problems can be attributed to the practice of TM. There are many things I think are out of whack in regards the TMO culture, but I know, from experience, with my own 21 year old son, that this is a difficult period of ones life to navigate, with or without the practice of TM. And from my own difficult adolescence, the most the practice of TM was able to do for me was give me a few minutes of respite each day. I would wager, (or at least hope), that any parent within the TMO culture who felt they had a child at risk would take any necessary steps to address that risk. I knew the parents, or at least the father of the boy who committed suicide a few years ago, Daniel S. He did not live in any kind of fantasy world about TM. You make this silly statement that if my beliefs are so strong, I should consider working full time for the movement. To me that points out a blind spot in that you seem to have taken every claim made about TM at face value, never figuring in a discount that most people would naturally take. And when it fell short, you developed a vendetta. This has been my point all along. I don't think it is about taking the TM promises so literally - it is all so literal how MJ is 'reading' these claims and then presenting them as proof that TM doesn't work. It's almost as if he believes that those who practice TM are incapable of making a mistake or being sad or getting divorced. Come on. Get a grip. No one believes that just by learning a meditation technique that you are going to become super-human, infallible and perfect. And no one is buying the fact that because a meditator has decided to end their life that it completely invalidates the entire TM practice and condemns the Movement as being one big fraud. The world is never so black and white. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Steve, I am glad you get something from TM, but you are burying your head in the sand if you ignore this - if you can refute it, do so. But this is the one thing about TM and all its stuff that bothers me the most. Whether you like it or not, there are numerous people who do TMSP long term who become basket cases in one way or another, and a number who attempt to or successfully commit suicide. I acknowledge that TM works for some, but the opposite is true as well. For some it is horrendous and for a balanced perspective, one has to look at both sides. You spend a fair amount of energy defending the Movement and TM
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : feste, you are correct. This young man suffered a serious head trauma and was in a coma less than 2 years ago. I too wonder if there was a lingering injury deep in the brain from that accident. They are a well loved family in the community and are being gently supported during this time. If someone suffered a head trauma that resulted in a coma, believe me, that was very, very serious. These brain injuries can result in all sorts of emotional issues afterwards. I know this well, I participate in a sport that is rife with head injuries. Speculating on something as absurd as the relationship of TM to this man's suicide given his medical history is as ridiculous as it is disrespectful. Knock it off. Not every tragedy should be used as an opportunity to try and discredit The Movement.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
Yep, I feel the same way as 7Ray and Feste. Get off it MJ with your TM hate here. People die all the time and commit suicide too. Om come on now, there is nothing extraordinary in the suicide rates here. Divide it out how you like, it is small in the population just like most . Yes it is extremely disturbing when it happens and we are not without sympathy for the boy, his parents, and his communities of friends. We are all saddened and in a shock. His prospects were great, seems everyone liked him. Yes he was a child of the movement. You are making political hay with your bad thinking about causality and I feel that is appalling. Your observations may bare some general truth but your thinking is wrong trying to link it all exclusively to TM for your own agenda. Certainly the anti-TM blogs you frequent will go crazy on this. Shame on you, -Buck in the Dome SeventhRay27 writes: Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF
I've been staying out of this, and will continue to do so, but I have to point out the eagerness with which several people have pounced on the brain injury/coma thing. It's almost as if you can feel them relax and say to themselves, Whew! There is some kind of *excuse* that I can glom onto so that I don't have to deal with the possibility that this is yet another in a rather long list of TM movement suicides, and thus a potential source of cognitive dissonance for me. It's good to have this excuse, so I don't have to 'go there'. From my staying-out-of-it-so-far point of view Michael is not overreacting to Yet Another Suicide by implying that it is linked with TM any more than several others here are knee-jerk overreacting to the same suicide by implying that it is not. It is absolutely LUDICROUS to pretend that TM has not promised a world and a society in which problems simply cannot happen. It is similarly LUDICROUS to pretend that anyone who does develop emotional problems within a TM-only community will be provided adequate mental health care for them. It has never happened and it will never happen, because providing the care in the first place will be perceived by those in charge as having doubts about TM being the panacea they believe it is. From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF Michael, to the rest of the world, the fact that he sustained a serious brain injury two years ago, puts the whole issue in a different light, whether you wish to acknowledge this or not. You have amply demonstrated that you are capable of tying TM to most any negative event, whether it makes sense or not. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Given the fact that it comes about a year after another siddha suicide and on the heels of many other suicides and attempted suicides by siddhas and governors, I think the whole thing needs to be looked at squarely and honestly. I won't be silenced about this. Of all the crap there is about the disconnect between what Marshy and the Movement advertise and the reality of what they and TM actually deliver, this bother me the most. If you don't want to deal with it Feste, then don't, but I won't be silent about this. From: feste37 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 10:10 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Another suicide in FF The post from Sheer-el from when he was an MSAE student was about 10 years ago, I think. He did suffer a serious injury about two years ago. He was in a coma for a while, I believe. I did hear that it was some kind of brain injury. I wonder if that injury affected him in some way that no one knew about. This is a tragedy for the family and for Fairfield. I do think that people should not use it on this board to push their anti-TM views. It's not appropriate, particularly as we know nothing of the circumstances in this case. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, geezerfreak@... wrote : Sheer-el Cohen. He was employed at the Raj. Apparently this happened yesterday. http://www.8000now.com/audiotext/Sheer-elCohenText.htm
