Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Yes, it's true...but now I have the knowledge to jump in their face about it, MCand you can believe I will! My anger and guilt at having put a completely asymptomatic cat down because of my vet's (and yes, my own) ignorance still burns brightly to this day...he was such a perfect, beautiful boyand he deserved better Debbie (COL) Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle Philo From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:47:15 -0400 To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary the problem is that way too many still DO! but you know that. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_3:092010 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
{ COL } -- part of his job in this world was to teach you that hard,
hard lesson. you only fail him if you forget the lesson and don't share
it with others.
yur pal, MC
--
Spay Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference
MaryChristine
Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org)
Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team)
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Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Thanks, MChe has made me a champion for the FeLV/FIV cause, that's for
sure...thanks for the kind words.
Debbie (COL)
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle Philo
From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 16:19:13 -0400
To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
{ COL } -- part of his job in this world was to teach you that hard,
hard lesson. you only fail him if you forget the lesson and don't share
it with others.
yur pal, MC
--
Spay Neuter Your Neighbors!
Maybe That'll Make The Difference
MaryChristine
Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org)
Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team)
___
Felvtalk mailing list
Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org
http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
_
Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail
you.
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_3:092010
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Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
THANKYOU.CATHY --- On Fri, 10/2/09, Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 11:12 AM Here here! I wish we would no longer test at all. If a cat is sick, they are sick. Treat that. It just seems like cats always get the short end of every stick - while I love dogs - they are much higher up the totem pole than cats, who are way down at the bottom. Why don't we declaw dogs? Or test them for parvo - or whatever? _ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
I agree - didn't used to, but after living with FELV and FIV and normal cats for several years, I really think that's a better approach. Gloria On Oct 5, 2009, at 11:55 AM, CATHERINE DIDONNA wrote: THANKYOU.CATHY --- On Fri, 10/2/09, Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 11:12 AM Here here! I wish we would no longer test at all. If a cat is sick, they are sick. Treat that. It just seems like cats always get the short end of every stick - while I love dogs - they are much higher up the totem pole than cats, who are way down at the bottom. Why don't we declaw dogs? Or test them for parvo - or whatever? _ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
amazing how things change when you learn the facts, isn't it? sometimes it amazes me to realize that even less than ten years ago i actually thought that a positive outdoor kitty breathing through a screen door at the housecats could infect them. On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Gloria B. Lane gbl...@aristotle.net wrote: I agree - didn't used to, but after living with FELV and FIV and normal cats for several years, I really think that's a better approach. Gloria -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Ten years ago that's what the vet would have told you...I know, because they did! Debbie (COL) Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle Philo From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:18:25 -0400 To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary amazing how things change when you learn the facts, isn't it? sometimes it amazes me to realize that even less than ten years ago i actually thought that a positive outdoor kitty breathing through a screen door at the housecats could infect them. On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Gloria B. Lane gbl...@aristotle.net wrote: I agree - didn't used to, but after living with FELV and FIV and normal cats for several years, I really think that's a better approach. Gloria -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Windows Live: Friends get your Flickr, Yelp, and Digg updates when they e-mail you. http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_3:092010 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
the problem is that way too many still DO! but you know that. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
i've seen a number of studies that give rates of infection in the wild, and in housecat populations--i just don't remember where right now. in NO case have any of them ever been above 10%, and i think it's actually under 5% for both. when they say, the two most prevalent fatal diseases in cats, they don't say that that DOESNT mean they're common as for FeLV, it was first identified as an entity in 1964 in glasgow, scotland. the bigger problem is that FIV was named in either '86 or '87, during the heyday of the HIV/AIDS panic. and the name itself has killed far more cats than the virus ever will. but the point about there not being any cats left were these two so deadly is vital to remember--unfortunately, it's even more true for FIP--which is neither infectious, nor peritonitis: FIP tends to kill much more quickly, so if it were contagious, there wouldn't be catteries, or shelters, or sanctuaries with any cats. sometimes i wonder, too, about why we bother testing: as chris says, ignorance is bliss MC On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Chris ti...@mindspring.com wrote: You know, there really is a lack of exhaustive studies on this whole question. Mortality rates are based on study of cats who already test positive. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Respectfully, I disagree. Quoting from this article, http://www.castawaycritters.org/info/display.php?PageID=157 Some caretakers believe that placing cats that initially test positive for either FIV, FeLV or both, together is a viable option. It is important to keep in mind that the cats may be in the process of fighting off a virus. If one makes the decision to test, it is important to follow the AAFP testing guidelines and re-test. Even if a cat happens to be FIV+, Neighborhood Cats founder Bryan Kortis says An FIV cat especially should not be around FeLVs, because an FIV cat could lead a very long life around other, non-FIV cats. But putting them around FeLV positives means they'll catch that virus too, being immune-compromised, and die early. *** And vaccinating already immune compromised cats? Hmm, it doesn't seem like such a good idea. We must do what is morally and ethically right, rather than what is easy. From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:30:06 -0400 To: rchestert...@verizon.net CC: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary fyi, there is no evidence that FIVs are any less able to throw off FeLV than are other cats--in fact, FIVs tend to be the healthiest populations in all sanctuary settings. while it might not be the optimum arrangement, until there are more places who are willing to take positive of both sorts in, it beats the alternative of just killing one or the other group. i don't know if best little cat house vaccinates their FIVs against FeLV, but if they do, that makes problems almost non-existent. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
sorry, but that's not what happens in the real world. for years, we've been trying to get research done in sanctuaries that actually have populations to test, but as there's no money in it for phamaceutical companies, it hasn't happened. in real life, FIVs throw off FeLV just as the 70% of non-FIVs do. once a cat tests positive for FIV (using the western blot), it is NOT fighting off the virus, but is persistenly infected. additionally as the vast majority of FIVs spent time on the streets, the odds that they've already been exposed to FeLV is great. FIV cats generally live near-normal lifespans, regardless of whom they live with. to be honest, no cat that tests positive for FeLV should be placed with other FeLVs until it's had enough time to be retested--because that new cat could very well be testing positive while its.body is processing out the virus, so exposing it to different strains in a FeLV-only environment is hardly the best place for it. as for following aafp guidelines, that would mean that no FeLV or FIV would EVER BE KILLED on the basis of a single test, and that is something that happens every single day. also, the aafp has updated its testing and management guidelines--the one in this article is the 2001 version. the new one is available on their website, www.catvets.com. 70% of adult cats exposed to FeLV will not remain persistently viremic--Mr Kortis' comments are not based in reality. but it's hard to tell when this article was written, and since dr levy and others have started doing research with FeLVs again, much has change i'm also unclear about how his statements work for TNR: the article mentions how many groups no longer test; but it sounds as if a colony shows up with a FeLV member, and FIV members, that the FIVs won't be returned to the colony? or will the FeLVs--the low percentage in well-managed colonies, as noted--be taken out and killed? MC On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com wrote: Respectfully, I disagree. Quoting from this article, http://www.castawaycritters.org/info/display.php?PageID=157 -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
I disagree on a few points. The article on the Castaway Critters site is not that old - perhaps 3 or 4 years at most. I have spoken via email with Dr. Levy on several occasions - in fact, in late 2008, regarding this very issue. Some recent info from Dr. Levy and link to her info - also while this is specifically regarding ferals it can certainly be applied to pet cats as well From Dr. Julie Levy on mixing cats: The first part of your question is fairly easy. If you are planning to confine cats for the rest of their lives in a sanctuary, I think they should be tested and segregated based on their infection status. Although transmission among adult cats that do not fight is relatively low, it is not zero. The risk of transmission is higher among cats that are housed in large groups and that are under physical or psychological stress, which might be expected to occur when translocating cats to a sanctuary. In most cases, sanctuaries quickly fill up to the holding capacity and then the sanctuary is virtually closed to new admissions. It would be more difficult to care for the cats over many years if infectious diseases are circulating among them. An excellent model for a feral cat sanctuary is at Best Friends Animal Sanctuary (WildCats Village, buttons #10 and #11 at http://www.bestfriends.com/atthesanctuary/animals/cats.cfm). All cats are affected by the stress of close confinement with large numbers of other cats, because that is not a natural environment for the species. Cats with FeLV and FIV are more susceptible to the adverse effects of this stress than uninfected cats. We see this commonly when infected cats come to TNR looking very healthy and then deteriorate when they are confined in sanctuaries or shelters. Cats with FIV generally are expected to live for many years, often into old age. Cats with FeLV may not survive as long but often thrive in a supportive environment. (from the above - cats with FIV are expected to live long - so that is a big reason to ask any sanctuary how long the cats who are FIV positive are living once they are accepted into the sanctuary). Stress of bringing a feral cat a new environment with many other cats is detrimental to health http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/departments/sacs/facultystaff/julielevy.html _ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
i think that the stress issue is far more important, especially for ferals. translocating to a sanctuary is not an issue with housecats, and while living with large numbers of cats CAN be very stressful, when the cats are somewhat socialized to people, it's quite possible to provide them with a comfortable environment. not easy, but possible. one of the reasons that it's so hard to find FIV space at sanctuaries is that they DO live forever or close enough. dr levy, like most researchers, are not going to state that something is absolutely safe until and unless there is actual data backing that up; unfortunately, we've gone so many years without adequate research being done that some important questions still remain unanswered. agaih, this is why the discussions about using, captive populations come up. from my experience, feral FeLVs did less well in a sanctuary enviroment than did strays or more social cats; didn't see the same thing with the FIVs--tho the ferals stayed away from the horrible humans (who would make their fur fall out if they got close enough, i'm told that mamaferals tell them). actually, feral non-positives did less well than other cats did, too--being around people, even tho we left them alone (except when necessary, tho we checked them visually every day), was NOT a good thing to them. so i'm not sure that the rules DO apply equally. i don't know what actual figures exist for transmission of FIV without fighting; i know that sanctuaries will foster out, or segregate, any cats who continue to be aggressive after neutering. MC On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com wrote: I disagree on a few points. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
You know, there really is a lack of exhaustive studies on this whole question. Mortality rates are based on study of cats who already test positive. And, I have never been able to find a really good study on the prevalence of either FIV or FELV... Studies are done of particular colonies, or of some sort of controlled population. But absent some scientific, purely random and large scale testing of owned as well as strays/ferals, I do not believe that anybody really knows how many cats are out there with these conditions. Absent that, it's a tossup to make predictions on rates of transmissions. The one 'fact' that has always struck me is that neither of these viruses are considered new--they have been around since forever. If they were indeed as lethal or contagious as some would have you think, then there would be no cats left. Remember that its only a recent development, even in this country, that cats are taken to vets for shots, for testing, etc. We always had cats when I was a kid but I could count on one hand the number of times any of them went to a vet. Since all our cats were strays that we took in, I can only assume that at least one or two were positive for something. I know this will sound very crass, but in some ways, ignorance was bliss... Our cats were loved, well taken care of, and lived happy, (and generally) long lives... Christiane Biagi Cell: 914-720-6888 ti...@mindspring.com -Original Message- From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of MaryChristine Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 4:01 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Cc: rchestert...@verizon.net Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary i think that the stress issue is far more important, especially for ferals. translocating to a sanctuary is not an issue with housecats, and while living with large numbers of cats CAN be very stressful, when the cats are somewhat socialized to people, it's quite possible to provide them with a comfortable environment. not easy, but possible. one of the reasons that it's so hard to find FIV space at sanctuaries is that they DO live forever or close enough. dr levy, like most researchers, are not going to state that something is absolutely safe until and unless there is actual data backing that up; unfortunately, we've gone so many years without adequate research being done that some important questions still remain unanswered. agaih, this is why the discussions about using, captive populations come up. from my experience, feral FeLVs did less well in a sanctuary enviroment than did strays or more social cats; didn't see the same thing with the FIVs--tho the ferals stayed away from the horrible humans (who would make their fur fall out if they got close enough, i'm told that mamaferals tell them). actually, feral non-positives did less well than other cats did, too--being around people, even tho we left them alone (except when necessary, tho we checked them visually every day), was NOT a good thing to them. so i'm not sure that the rules DO apply equally. i don't know what actual figures exist for transmission of FIV without fighting; i know that sanctuaries will foster out, or segregate, any cats who continue to be aggressive after neutering. MC On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com wrote: I disagree on a few points. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
I just had a young adult male test FIV+, weak FELV+, and about 45 days later FELV negative, confirmed on IFA. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 1:30 PM, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.comwrote: fyi, there is no evidence that FIVs are any less able to throw off FeLV than are other cats--in fact, FIVs tend to be the healthiest populations in all sanctuary settings. while it might not be the optimum arrangement, until there are more places who are willing to take positive of both sorts in, it beats the alternative of just killing one or the other group. i don't know if best little cat house vaccinates their FIVs against FeLV, but if they do, that makes problems almost non-existent. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org ) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Best thing to do is ask how long cats live once they go to a sanctuary, any sanctuary and if they are medicated or vaccinated at all. If they have a limit of number of cats they take in also and how they are funded. And of course, visit. Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:51:58 -0400 From: furrygi...@gmail.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org CC: rchestert...@verizon.net Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary I just had a young adult male test FIV+, weak FELV+, and about 45 days later FELV negative, confirmed on IFA. On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 1:30 PM, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.comwrote: fyi, there is no evidence that FIVs are any less able to throw off FeLV than are other cats--in fact, FIVs tend to be the healthiest populations in all sanctuary settings. while it might not be the optimum arrangement, until there are more places who are willing to take positive of both sorts in, it beats the alternative of just killing one or the other group. i don't know if best little cat house vaccinates their FIVs against FeLV, but if they do, that makes problems almost non-existent. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org ) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
fyi, there is no evidence that FIVs are any less able to throw off FeLV than are other cats--in fact, FIVs tend to be the healthiest populations in all sanctuary settings. while it might not be the optimum arrangement, until there are more places who are willing to take positive of both sorts in, it beats the alternative of just killing one or the other group. i don't know if best little cat house vaccinates their FIVs against FeLV, but if they do, that makes problems almost non-existent. -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Dorlis, Yes they ask for a donation to support the kitties left to them but it is up to the individual - no set amount per cat. Here is the link to their web site. http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/ Check out the Safety Net program. Sharyl --- On Sun, 8/30/09, dlg...@windstream.net dlg...@windstream.net wrote: From: dlg...@windstream.net dlg...@windstream.net Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Cc: Alice Hanson alicehans...@msn.com Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 5:02 PM do they ask for donations when you send a cat there or do they leave that up to you? i was thinking of taking out a small life policy to go with my babies when the time comes. make them the beneficiary. dorlis Alice Hanson alicehans...@msn.com wrote: It is a good place, Sharyl. One of my beloved kitties, Milo, lives there. They send you pictures and newsletters too. You made the right choice. Alice - Original Message - From: Sharylmailto:cline...@yahoo.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary I had the opportunity to visit the CW Rustic Hollow Shelter in IA. Looking for a forever home for my cats when I die. They have a excellent set up with multiple houses/buildings/barns. Each building is heated and has air conditioning. Most windows have an attached screened-in enclosure so the kitties can enjoy the nice weather. There are several TVs in each building running kitties videos. Most of the buildings are old but it is obvious the kitties are well loved. In addition to a paid staff, volunteers come in every day to feed the kitties and scoop the litter boxes. The rooms had hand me down furniture for the kitties to lounge on. It isn't the Ritz but everything was clean. They have a board of directors and plans in place to keep the facility going if/when something happens to the original owners. Most importantly they will take FeLV+ kitties and other special needs kitties. I am having my will changed so my cats will go there when the time comes. I sponsor one of their kitties with neurological issues. Here is the link to their web site if anyone is interested. http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/ Sharyl ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Maybe it is not such a bad idea if checking out a sanctuary to ask how long the cats typically live. As well as how they are funded and what happens to the cats should something happen to them, etc. _ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
yes, a sanctuary in every ton would be ideal, but so would a world where people did not hurt one another and animals just for the fun of it. until that tim, we have to do the best we can for ourselves and our animals. try to live our lives as an example to othersand hope they catch on. till that time, i will continue to take in any cat that comes my way, give them love, shelter and food. what time God gives them on this earth will at least be happier for them. this time around, i got 2 by way of my vet. he can't stand to put them down, so he fixes/heals them and waits for me t come in. he said i have sucker written on my forehead just as plain as day. dorlis MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Yeah, that and an end to world hunger and peace in our timeTill, then, we just keep treading water and do the best we can. - Original Message From: dlg...@windstream.net dlg...@windstream.net To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Cc: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:40:36 PM Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary yes, a sanctuary in every ton would be ideal, but so would a world where people did not hurt one another and animals just for the fun of it. until that tim, we have to do the best we can for ourselves and our animals. try to live our lives as an example to othersand hope they catch on. till that time, i will continue to take in any cat that comes my way, give them love, shelter and food. what time God gives them on this earth will at least be happier for them. this time around, i got 2 by way of my vet. he can't stand to put them down, so he fixes/heals them and waits for me t come in. he said i have sucker written on my forehead just as plain as day. dorlis MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
if the cats have plenty of room to avoid a cat they don't like or that doesn't like them, shelter, food and someone to scratch their chin, rub their back, play with them a bit and lots of windows to look out, maybe even an outside play room, i think they would think that ideal. my babies do. they don't need me too much, just to open the cans, open and close the doors and provide a lap for personal nap time. dorlis MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
do they ask for donations when you send a cat there or do they leave that up to you? i was thinking of taking out a small life policy to go with my babies when the time comes. make them the beneficiary. dorlis Alice Hanson alicehans...@msn.com wrote: It is a good place, Sharyl. One of my beloved kitties, Milo, lives there. They send you pictures and newsletters too. You made the right choice. Alice - Original Message - From: Sharylmailto:cline...@yahoo.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary I had the opportunity to visit the CW Rustic Hollow Shelter in IA. Looking for a forever home for my cats when I die. They have a excellent set up with multiple houses/buildings/barns. Each building is heated and has air conditioning. Most windows have an attached screened-in enclosure so the kitties can enjoy the nice weather. There are several TVs in each building running kitties videos. Most of the buildings are old but it is obvious the kitties are well loved. In addition to a paid staff, volunteers come in every day to feed the kitties and scoop the litter boxes. The rooms had hand me down furniture for the kitties to lounge on. It isn't the Ritz but everything was clean. They have a board of directors and plans in place to keep the facility going if/when something happens to the original owners. Most importantly they will take FeLV+ kitties and other special needs kitties. I am having my will changed so my cats will go there when the time comes. I sponsor one of their kitties with neurological issues. Here is the link to their web site if anyone is interested. http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/ Sharyl --- On Mon, 6/1/09, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.commailto:twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: From: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.commailto:twelvehousec...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:45 PM of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.orghttp://www.purebredcats.org/) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orghttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orghttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
and as someone once told me, forget about visualizing world peace, it's time we start ACTUALIZING it love one another. i don't recall that statement coming with a number-of-legs or freedom-from-virii condition. MC On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Susan Hoffman susan_hoff...@yahoo.comwrote: Yeah, that and an end to world hunger and peace in our timeTill, then, we just keep treading water and do the best we can. - Original Message From: dlg...@windstream.net dlg...@windstream.net To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Cc: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:40:36 PM Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary yes, a sanctuary in every ton would be ideal, but so would a world where people did not hurt one another and animals just for the fun of it. until that tim, we have to do the best we can for ourselves and our animals. try to live our lives as an example to othersand hope they catch on. till that time, i will continue to take in any cat that comes my way, give them love, shelter and food. what time God gives them on this earth will at least be happier for them. this time around, i got 2 by way of my vet. he can't stand to put them down, so he fixes/heals them and waits for me t come in. he said i have sucker written on my forehead just as plain as day. dorlis MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue ( www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
I wasn't following this string but just so you know, unless things have changed...this sanctuary does not separate FeLV positive from FIV positive cats. Also, if at all possible, it is best for kitty to live in a home and not be exposed to so many other cats with illnesses. He or she will live a lot longer. Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 21:26:35 -0400 From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary http://www.thebestlittlecathouseinpa.com/ On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Lorrie felineres...@kvinet.com wrote: Where is The Best Little Cat House in PA? On 05-26, CATHERINE DIDONNA wrote: Where are you located? Where is the Sanctuary? The best little cat house in Penn. will take him for free when there is room. Regards. C ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Hotmail® goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Harrisburg Pa.717 469-2540 Lynn Stitt. Cathy . --- On Sat, 5/30/09, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: From: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 9:26 PM http://www.thebestlittlecathouseinpa.com/ On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Lorrie felineres...@kvinet.com wrote: Where is The Best Little Cat House in PA? On 05-26, CATHERINE DIDONNA wrote: Where are you located? Where is the Sanctuary? The best little cat house in Penn. will take him for free when there is room. Regards. C ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Agree. -Original Message- From: felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org [mailto:felvtalk-boun...@felineleukemia.org] On Behalf Of MaryChristine Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:10 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Wouldn't it depend on quality of life? Any sanctuary should be checked out prior with a personal visit and some questions. Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:09:33 -0400 From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Hotmail® goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Wouldn't what depend on quality of life? On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com wrote: Wouldn't it depend on quality of life? Any sanctuary should be checked out prior with a personal visit and some questions. Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:09:33 -0400 From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue ( www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Hotmail® goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org -- Rescuties - Saving the world, one cat at a time. http://www.rescuties.org Vist the Rescuties stores and save a kitty life! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=rescuties-20 http://www.zazzle.com/rescuties* Buy or renew magazines and help our kitties! http://www.magfundraising.com/rescuties Help us spay some kitties! http://rescuties.chipin.com/30-spays-in-30-days Rather than helping, it's easier to point fingers and say take them first as long as you leave me alone. ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
I'd like to add - you can't have ANY quality of life if you are DEAD. See The Fallacy of Fates Worse than Death by Nathan Winograd http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=1076 On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:45 PM, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.comwrote: of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org ) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org -- Rescuties - Saving the world, one cat at a time. http://www.rescuties.org Vist the Rescuties stores and save a kitty life! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=rescuties-20 http://www.zazzle.com/rescuties* Buy or renew magazines and help our kitties! http://www.magfundraising.com/rescuties Help us spay some kitties! http://rescuties.chipin.com/30-spays-in-30-days Rather than helping, it's easier to point fingers and say take them first as long as you leave me alone. ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
the ASPCA sends cats there. --- On Mon, 6/1/09, Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Stray Cat Alliance stray_cat_allia...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:30 PM Wouldn't it depend on quality of life? Any sanctuary should be checked out prior with a personal visit and some questions. Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:09:33 -0400 From: twelvehousec...@gmail.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary just to cause more trouble, as i'm so good at doing, not separating is NOT necessarily the worse thing, if death is the only alternative. FIVs are generally the healthiest populations at any sanctuary, and they throw off FeLV at the same or possibly a higher rate than any other cat--double-positives will often end up testing positive only for FIV after living in a FeLV environment. remember that most cats who end up in sanctuary settings are NOT up for adoption--if they were considered adoptable, and rescues or shelters were willing to try to find them homes, they wouldn't be going to sanctuaries. while some sanctuaries do have active adoption programs, many do not, for very good reasons: they have to spend their time and money taking care of unwanted, undesirable, unadoptable cats. folks who are willing to adopt FIVs and FeLVs are far more willing, also, to be--or equally willing to be--educable about the facts re: the two viruses, and understand that living with FeLVs in order to live doesn't mean you're gonna BE one of the them. which is not a blanket endorsement of the practice, but if we truly believe what we're saying, and what the research is showing us, we have to carry it out further--it'd be great if there were an FIV/FeLV sanctuary in every town, with a separate room for each population, but it ain't happening, and these cats do NOT deserve to die for lack of space. MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org _ Hotmail® goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
I had the opportunity to visit the CW Rustic Hollow Shelter in IA. Looking for a forever home for my cats when I die. They have a excellent set up with multiple houses/buildings/barns. Each building is heated and has air conditioning. Most windows have an attached screened-in enclosure so the kitties can enjoy the nice weather. There are several TVs in each building running kitties videos. Most of the buildings are old but it is obvious the kitties are well loved. In addition to a paid staff, volunteers come in every day to feed the kitties and scoop the litter boxes. The rooms had hand me down furniture for the kitties to lounge on. It isn't the Ritz but everything was clean. They have a board of directors and plans in place to keep the facility going if/when something happens to the original owners. Most importantly they will take FeLV+ kitties and other special needs kitties. I am having my will changed so my cats will go there when the time comes. I sponsor one of their kitties with neurological issues. Here is the link to their web site if anyone is interested. http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/ Sharyl --- On Mon, 6/1/09, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: From: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:45 PM of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
we have only 2 or 3 rescue groups in our area and they are entirely volunteer staffed. they are not too good at keeping boxes clean and really don't have time to socialize the kitties and dogs in their care. most of them come in after work or go in before work. pretty hectic schedule. now that my Mary is recovering from her stroke and her son Lane can take her to rehab, i am going to get with the closest group and volunteer to go in an clean and spend time with the kids in their care. having 6 of my own, with 2 felv pos, i iknow that it takes a lot of time to clean boxes, feed and spend some personal time with each of my babies so no one feels left out. i have been fortunate, none of my girls and 1 boy have any real health issues right now, just worms. been passing out the meds for that and some of them don't like taking meds. by the time i get Revolution for all 6, keep shots up to date, my vet loves me. i think i spend more time with him than i do iwth my own doctor. one last one to spay, she showed up when in heat and lost her tail to a raccoon i think because she goes bananas whenever she sees one and tries to hide between my chair and me. as soon as she is out of heat, she goes to see the doctor because she is driving me and all the girls crazy with her howling, etc. even if she was not felv pos, can't let her get pregnant, she is too small, less than 6 lbs. vet says not safe for her to have kittens. i can see the need for spaying as she just paces all night long, howling, crying. she never gets any sleep and has lost weight and hair. vet said that happens when in heat. to go thru that several times a year would be torture for me, know must be for her. it seems that so many kitties have gone since i last logged in. i know how each one of you must feel, it is like loosing one of my own children when one of my babies passes on. God be with you and give you another baby to take their place. dorlis Sharyl cline...@yahoo.com wrote: I had the opportunity to visit the CW Rustic Hollow Shelter in IA. Looking for a forever home for my cats when I die. They have a excellent set up with multiple houses/buildings/barns. Each building is heated and has air conditioning. Most windows have an attached screened-in enclosure so the kitties can enjoy the nice weather. There are several TVs in each building running kitties videos. Most of the buildings are old but it is obvious the kitties are well loved. In addition to a paid staff, volunteers come in every day to feed the kitties and scoop the litter boxes. The rooms had hand me down furniture for the kitties to lounge on. It isn't the Ritz but everything was clean. They have a board of directors and plans in place to keep the facility going if/when something happens to the original owners. Most importantly they will take FeLV+ kitties and other special needs kitties. I am having my will changed so my cats will go there when the time comes. I sponsor one of their kitties with neurological issues. Here is the link to their web site if anyone is interested. http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/ Sharyl --- On Mon, 6/1/09, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: From: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:45 PM of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
It is a good place, Sharyl. One of my beloved kitties, Milo, lives there. They send you pictures and newsletters too. You made the right choice. Alice - Original Message - From: Sharylmailto:cline...@yahoo.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary I had the opportunity to visit the CW Rustic Hollow Shelter in IA. Looking for a forever home for my cats when I die. They have a excellent set up with multiple houses/buildings/barns. Each building is heated and has air conditioning. Most windows have an attached screened-in enclosure so the kitties can enjoy the nice weather. There are several TVs in each building running kitties videos. Most of the buildings are old but it is obvious the kitties are well loved. In addition to a paid staff, volunteers come in every day to feed the kitties and scoop the litter boxes. The rooms had hand me down furniture for the kitties to lounge on. It isn't the Ritz but everything was clean. They have a board of directors and plans in place to keep the facility going if/when something happens to the original owners. Most importantly they will take FeLV+ kitties and other special needs kitties. I am having my will changed so my cats will go there when the time comes. I sponsor one of their kitties with neurological issues. Here is the link to their web site if anyone is interested. http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/ Sharyl --- On Mon, 6/1/09, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.commailto:twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: From: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.commailto:twelvehousec...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:45 PM of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.orghttp://www.purebredcats.org/) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orghttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orghttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
went to C W's site and i like what i see. the cats are not in a sterile shelter building, but in homes which they are used to. plan to visit since they are closest to me and have a personal look see. this does seem like the place for my babies since theya re used to running my house, sleeping wherever they want, eating when they want. only difference would be they could not roam the woods like they do now, but that would be a small price to pay for their safety and security. they do seem to have plenty of places to sit and lay, just can't catch the mice. course mice give them worms sometimes as i found out. dorlis Alice Hanson alicehans...@msn.com wrote: It is a good place, Sharyl. One of my beloved kitties, Milo, lives there. They send you pictures and newsletters too. You made the right choice. Alice - Original Message - From: Sharylmailto:cline...@yahoo.com To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary I had the opportunity to visit the CW Rustic Hollow Shelter in IA. Looking for a forever home for my cats when I die. They have a excellent set up with multiple houses/buildings/barns. Each building is heated and has air conditioning. Most windows have an attached screened-in enclosure so the kitties can enjoy the nice weather. There are several TVs in each building running kitties videos. Most of the buildings are old but it is obvious the kitties are well loved. In addition to a paid staff, volunteers come in every day to feed the kitties and scoop the litter boxes. The rooms had hand me down furniture for the kitties to lounge on. It isn't the Ritz but everything was clean. They have a board of directors and plans in place to keep the facility going if/when something happens to the original owners. Most importantly they will take FeLV+ kitties and other special needs kitties. I am having my will changed so my cats will go there when the time comes. I sponsor one of their kitties with neurological issues. Here is the link to their web site if anyone is interested. http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/http://www.rustichollowshelter.org/ Sharyl --- On Mon, 6/1/09, MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.commailto:twelvehousec...@gmail.com wrote: From: MaryChristine twelvehousec...@gmail.commailto:twelvehousec...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:45 PM of course if depends on quality of life, but you also have to have a realistic definition of what that means. i've found that many people tend to judge quality of life in human terms, and in light of what they would like to be able to provide to a housecat--and that is NOT necessarily what a sanctuary can and even should be able to provide. people often have unrealistic expectation of the places that take in the unwanted, and while there are DEFINITELY enough horror stories to go around, until more folks can step up and share the burden, they perhaps need to revise down their own personal standards. let's have a task force of folks who volunteer to go to sanctuaries nearby where they live, and report back to the rest of us. let's talk with people who've had to try to make decisions regarding how best to care for large number of critters, and see what it's like to make the choices needed. let's ask the cats -- you can tell happy cats when you see them, and plush surroundings are NOT the standard MC -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.orghttp://www.purebredcats.org/) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orghttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.orgmailto:Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.orghttp://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
http://www.thebestlittlecathouseinpa.com/ On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Lorrie felineres...@kvinet.com wrote: Where is The Best Little Cat House in PA? On 05-26, CATHERINE DIDONNA wrote: Where are you located? Where is the Sanctuary? The best little cat house in Penn. will take him for free when there is room. Regards. C ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org -- Spay Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] PA Sanctuary
Where is The Best Little Cat House in PA? On 05-26, CATHERINE DIDONNA wrote: Where are you located? Where is the Sanctuary? The best little cat house in Penn. will take him for free when there is room. Regards. C ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
