Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Semi-stressed bears aren’t subtle either, but (lest anyone be concerned) that was a typo for “beat.” Cheers, — DJA - http://secretsocietymusic.org > On Dec 13, 2016, at 9:47 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > > The difference between a barline accent and an internal

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Many do. ;-) Christopher > On Dec 13, 2016, at 10:07 AM, Giovanni Andreani > wrote: > > I completely agree with Darcy James Argue ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu https://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale To

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I completely agree with Darcy James Argue Giovanni Andreani > On 13 Dec 2016, at 15:47, Darcy James Argue wrote: > > The difference between a barline accent and an internal semi-stressed bear is > not subtle! And if we are talking about a musical gesture which extends a >

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

The difference between a barline accent and an internal semi-stressed bear is not subtle! And if we are talking about a musical gesture which extends a phrase from 4/4 to 6/4 (or 3/2), chopping that extended measure up into three smaller measures obscures rather than clarifies. Really, the

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Although it uses 3 measures if indicating a 2/4, rather than one 6/4 measure, we seem to have come full circle. If, as Christopher objects, there might be "too much" stress on syllables 3 and 5. Fair, but perhaps only flailing at gnats. Which makes me wonder what accents or tenuto marks are

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

And to answer your question: With a expression above the measure that says "2+2+2” (as I believe Chris Smith also suggested). Cheers, — DJA - http://secretsocietymusic.org > On Dec 10, 2016, at 5:06 AM, David H. Bailey wrote: > > So how would you indicate

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

The discussion seemed to have moved beyond the specifics of the original question — people were making broad normative claims about 6/4 versus 3/2. Cheers, — DJA - http://secretsocietymusic.org > On Dec 10, 2016, at 5:06 AM, David H. Bailey wrote: > > > > On

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

At this point a 6/4 measure with dotted lines before beats 3 and 5 would suit better, in my opinion. Or eventually a measure tick instead of the dotted bar line could be used. By the way there is not an absolute theory which states that 6/4 has to be grouped in two ternary groups. Hindemit's

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

perhaps a 3/2 measure with dotted lines for beats 3 + 5? Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016 On Dec 11, 2016 10:22 AM, "Christopher Smith" < christopher.sm...@videotron.ca> wrote:

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

You must have meant 2/4. It’s not a screwup; it’s communicating something that isn’t necessarily there in the music. There is a large downbeat on the first beat of the 6/4, then the next large downbeat is the next bar of 4/4. If the 6/4 were divided into 3 bars of 2/4, it would be implying

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

wrote: >> I wouldn?t have liked three bars of 2/4 either, in a context of >> 4/4, as that would have been really weird. timothy.key.price timothy.key.pr...@valley.net We composers have to try to make clear our intentions to conductors ranging from

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 08:15:47 Christopher Smith wrote: > I just conducted a piece for concert band by Samuel R. Hazo called > ?Arabesque? where there is a single measure of 6/4 indicated to be conducted > 2+2+2 in a context of 4/4. I think this was the right

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Yes, I conducted it in a large 3 with two bounces on each beat. I tried to stay clean because there was a lot going on there and I didn’t want to distract anyone from what was important (nailing the figures!) I agree that the music should come out properly, and I try to make sure that when I am

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/10/2016 8:34 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: > You might have missed my response. I said the passage in “Arabesque” in 6/4 > was marked “2+2+2” and I agreed with it. > I did see it, but I had forgotten it this morning. :-( Sorry. So how did you conduct that? In the traditional 6 pattern

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

You might have missed my response. I said the passage in “Arabesque” in 6/4 was marked “2+2+2” and I agreed with it. Christopher > On Dec 10, 2016, at 4:53 AM, David H. Bailey > wrote: > > Yes, the original question was indeed about a case where the

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Hi Darcy, I may have overstated my insistence on 3/2 vs 6/4. My own music changes meter often, suppresses downbeats (or emphasizes offbeats), sometimes floats freely above the meter for long stretches. Your wisdom — along with your experience — is evident, clear, and also well known. Even

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/9/2016 5:14 PM, iCloud wrote: > Hi Steve, > > The distinction is useful until it’s not. > > If I have a fast piece in 2/2, conducted in 2, and then I need a bar that’s > elongated by a beat, I’m going to write a bar of 3/2, and conduct that bar in > 3. > > If I have a piece in 5/4,

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/9/2016 5:14 PM, iCloud wrote: > Hi Steve, > > The distinction is useful until it’s not. > > If I have a fast piece in 2/2, conducted in 2, and then I need a bar that’s > elongated by a beat, I’m going to write a bar of 3/2, and conduct that bar in > 3. > > If I have a piece in 5/4,

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/9/2016 6:49 PM, Steve Parker wrote: [snip] > The original question was (I thought) about the case where the stresses were > important? [snip] Yes, the original question was indeed about a case where the stresses were important and the person was asking how best to get the stresses on

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I also agree, specially if the structure of the phrase is varied by the extension of a motive or other smaller part within the musical phrase. Giovanni Andreani > On 10 Dec 2016, at 00:49, Steve Parker wrote: > > I actually 100% agree. If the stresses are not important

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I actually 100% agree. If the stresses are not important then i would go 4/4 to 6/4 and I would conduct it as a bar of six. If the music is complex then even a minim pulse can be hemiola. If I wanted to conduct the crotchets here, I would conduct a 6/4 pattern with minim icthus points. The

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Hi Steve, The distinction is useful until it’s not. If I have a fast piece in 2/2, conducted in 2, and then I need a bar that’s elongated by a beat, I’m going to write a bar of 3/2, and conduct that bar in 3. If I have a piece in 5/4, conducted in 5, and then I need a bar that’s elongated by

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Making statements like "always" seems pretty risky when it comes to music, including common practice rep. I'm virtually certain common practice rep has examples of 6/4 in the context of 4/4 as a way of extending a particular bar. I just can't find one at the moment. :-( Also, I don't imagine

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

> On 9 Dec 2016, at 7:22 AM, Steve Parker wrote: > > I think a composer should be able to do whatever they like. But it's not a > convention that is outliving its usefulness, it is rather a useful > distinction that is being contracted. > I can happily conduct 6 beats in 3/2 to keep the pulse

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/8/2016 8:10 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: [snip]> Though I've seen it done, alternating notations of 4/4 and 3/2 while keeping > the quarter-note pulse the same never made sense to me. I would be expecting > the conductor to switch to /2 pulses. > [snip] That's how I conduct that sort of

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I think a composer should be able to do whatever they like. But it's not a convention that is outliving its usefulness, it is rather a useful distinction that is being contracted. I can happily conduct 6 beats in 3/2 to keep the pulse the same and I've never met anyone who would suddenly

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

[I’ve trimmed the previous discussion] I just conducted a piece for concert band by Samuel R. Hazo called “Arabesque” where there is a single measure of 6/4 indicated to be conducted 2+2+2 in a context of 4/4. I think this was the right decision, as 4/4 + 2/4 would have implied a stronger

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On Thu, December 8, 2016 6:00 am, David H. Bailey wrote: > But putting > aside those of us on this list, how would a composer indicate in a > printed score, without using accent marks which would likely produce > more emphasis than desired, that with a 6/4 meter the emphasis should be > 1, 3, 5 so

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

An interesting point, which shows more than anything else how imprecise music notation is in conveying a composer's intentions. Accents could be interpreted with too strong an emphasis on the 1, 3 and 5, phrase marks could lead to a greater than wanted disconnect between 2-3, 4-5, 6-1. Using

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Agree with David entirely. The distinction is a useful and longstanding one. I don't see what is gained by blurring it. Steve P. > On 8 Dec 2016, at 11:00, David H. Bailey wrote: > >> On 12/8/2016 12:36 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: >> I agree with Patrick, the

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

they would read the finale list archives, no? :P >how would a composer indicate in a printed score, without using >accent marks which would likely produce more emphasis than desired, >that with a 6/4 meter the emphasis should be 1, 3, 5 so that a >performer far removed from this discussion or

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/8/2016 12:36 AM, Giovanni Andreani wrote: > I agree with Patrick, the denominator suggests the pulse's value. > If that's true, then why is 6/8 so often played as 2/dotted-quarter instead of clearly indicating each 8th note? That seems to be the majority of the time. And the original

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

om: Lee Dengler [mailto:leedeng...@comcast.net] >> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 1:10 PM >> To: finale@shsu.edu >> Subject: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4 >> >> I have a theory question for all you theory buffs out there. I am writing a >> piece that is mostly in a s

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

nt. > > Patrick J. M. Sheehan > > P. S. Music > > patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com > -Original Message- > From: Lee Dengler [mailto:leedeng...@comcast.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 1:10 PM > To: finale@shsu.edu > Subject: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4 >

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

blockquote, div.yahoo_quoted { margin-left: 0 !important; border-left:1px #715FFA solid !important; padding-left:1ex !important; background-color:white !important; } Context is everything I suppose. A stress of three instead of two...or was that four? 2fer makes sense if they are equally

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4 I have a theory question for all you theory buffs out there. I am writing a piece that is mostly in a slow 4/4 meter (quarter note =60). Occasionally, I have a measure of 6 beats where the quarter note remains consistent. In those measures, the stress

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

three measures of 2/4 is not a bad suggestion at all. It avoids the minor Panic that can result when seeing a larger time signature. another possibility, depending on the music, is a 4/4 + 2/4. Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

3 measures of 2/4 is what you need. > On Dec 7, 2016, at 2:39 PM, "j...@thomastudios.com" > wrote: > > I agree with David and Raymond, 3/2. > > > *** > J D Thomas > ThomaStudios > > > >> On Dec 7, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Lee Dengler

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I agree with Darcy. When reading the score I'd much rather see 6/4. The shift to 3/2 causes me to have to think a bit more. I did an arrangement several years ago where the quarter note stayed constant but had lots of meter changes (it was approximating some chant and I wanted to use downbeats

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I can understand the argument for 3/2, but my experience with players even moderately familiar with newer music is that moving from 4/4 to 6/4 in which the 6/4 measure is felt with the same pulse - like a 4/4 measure with two extra beats, is not only not a problem, it’s less distracting than

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/7/2016 3:08 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > Hi all, > > The conventional answer is 3/2, because as you say, traditionally 6/4 > is compound meter. > > I personally ignore this convention for exactly the reason you > describe — that it suggests that the underlying X/4 pulse changes, > and that

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Breaking up the bar asymmetrically like that might work in certain situations, but there are many cases where it will not, and 6/4 really is the best answer. YMMV as they say, but I never lose any sleep over using a binary 6/4 and it has never caused any confusion for performers. Cheers, —

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

If you are uncomfortable with the 3/2 convention, rather than using the ambiguous 6/4 meter, have you considered breaking it into 4/4 + 2/4? (or vice versa)? On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: > Hi all, > > The conventional answer is 3/2, because as you

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

Hi all, The conventional answer is 3/2, because as you say, traditionally 6/4 is compound meter. I personally ignore this convention for exactly the reason you describe — that it suggests that the underlying X/4 pulse changes, and that is unintentional. In a mixed-meter piece, going from 4/4

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I agree with David and Raymond, 3/2. *** J D Thomas ThomaStudios > On Dec 7, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Lee Dengler wrote: > > I have a theory question for all you theory buffs out there. I am writing a > piece that is mostly in a slow 4/4 meter

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

On 12/7/2016 2:09 PM, Lee Dengler wrote: > I have a theory question for all you theory buffs out there. I am writing a > piece that is mostly in a slow 4/4 meter (quarter note =60). Occasionally, > I have a measure of 6 beats where the quarter note remains consistent. In > those measures, the

Re: [Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

3/2, absolutely. If uncertain, put quarter note equals quarter note. Raymond Horton Composer, Arranger Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016 On Dec 7, 2016 2:10 PM, "Lee Dengler" wrote: > I

[Finale] 3/2 vs. 6/4

I have a theory question for all you theory buffs out there. I am writing a piece that is mostly in a slow 4/4 meter (quarter note =60). Occasionally, I have a measure of 6 beats where the quarter note remains consistent. In those measures, the stress of lyrics falls on beats 1, 3 and 5.