Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
At 5/3/2007 03:00 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I would say John Cage knew nothing about composing. Survey 100 people on the street. At least 99 would say, John who? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Phil Daley wrote: At 5/3/2007 03:00 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I would say John Cage knew nothing about composing. Survey 100 people on the street. At least 99 would say, John who? Yes, but that would also be true of John Adams and Joan Tower and Corigliano and practically any living or recent composer except John Williams. You'd most likely get the same response from 99 out of 100 when they were asked about Aaron Copland. :-) Public ignorance is no indication of anybody's ability within their chosen art. Say whatever you want about John Cage's knowledge of composing, these days nobody can argue about his skill as an expert on decomposing. ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
At 5/4/2007 06:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Yes, but that would also be true of John Adams Wasn't he a president? 95 out of 100 would know him. and Joan Tower and Corigliano Who? Those would get 1 out of 10,000 at most. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 4-May-07, at 6:38 AM, Phil Daley wrote: I would say John Cage knew nothing about composing. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you are just wrong here. Even if you confine your definition to traditional music, or music that YOU like, his works for percussion are brilliant examples, ripe for inclusion in any textbook on composition, and vital study for anyone writing for percussion. Survey 100 people on the street. At least 99 would say, John who? That argument is a red herring. Popularity is no test at all of whether Cage knows anything about composing. Probably more people know him than know Toru Takemitsu, or Fanny Mendelssohn, or, well name just about any composer outside the ones who show up on orchestra programs regularly. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 4-May-07, at 7:06 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 5/4/2007 06:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Yes, but that would also be true of John Adams Wasn't he a president? 95 out of 100 would know him. and Joan Tower and Corigliano Who? Those would get 1 out of 10,000 at most. You are not addressing the point. Red herring again. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Phil Daley wrote: At 5/4/2007 06:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Yes, but that would also be true of John Adams Wasn't he a president? 95 out of 100 would know him. and Joan Tower and Corigliano Who? Those would get 1 out of 10,000 at most. That was my point -- public anonymity doesn't have any bearing on a composer's ability. You seemed to suggest that John Cage's fame as a composer was suspect because 99 out of a 100 would ask John who? If I misinterpreted your original message I apologize. Yes, there was a U.S. president named John Adams (actually 2, if you count John Quincy Adams as being a 'John Adams'), and 95 out of 100 U.S. citizens would likely recognize the president(s), but I doubt that they would recognize John Adams, the composer of Nixon in China and Death of Klinghofer. Anonymity among the general public doesn't make anybody any less of a composer, and so has no bearing on any comment that Cage wasn't much into composing. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
So be an ass. Take it personally. Cheers, Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 6:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: For what, exactly? You took an ignorant cheap shot at a musician you don't, apparently, know much about, and I corrected you. And you haven't offered a substantial rebuttal to any of my points, other than to assert that in your opinion, Don is ridiculous and could not play the trumpet. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 6:05 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: I'm still expecting an apology. Jerry Gerald Berg ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Ever missing the point. You told me not to be asinine for expressing an informed opinion -- informed I stress. Yes, I did take it personally -- you meant for me to take it personally. Otherwise, why word it that way? Me calling you an ass I meant personally. Ergo even. Twitter twitter. Cheers, Gerald Berg On 4-May-07, at 10:52 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: That's right, *I'm* the one taking this disagreement personally. Please. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 04 May 2007, at 10:19 AM, Gerald Berg wrote: So be an ass. Take it personally. Cheers, Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 6:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: For what, exactly? You took an ignorant cheap shot at a musician you don't, apparently, know much about, and I corrected you. And you haven't offered a substantial rebuttal to any of my points, other than to assert that in your opinion, Don is ridiculous and could not play the trumpet. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 6:05 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: I'm still expecting an apology. Jerry Gerald Berg ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 4, 2007, at 4:06 AM, Phil Daley wrote: At 5/4/2007 06:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Yes, but that would also be true of John Adams Wasn't he a president? 95 out of 100 would know him. 95 out of 100 would know John Adams the composer? Hardly. and Joan Tower and Corigliano Who? Those would get 1 out of 10,000 at most. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Brennon Bortz Teaching Assistant and Graduate Student - Music Composition University of California, Riverside [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 4, 2007, at 3:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Phil Daley wrote: At 5/3/2007 03:00 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I would say John Cage knew nothing about composing. Survey 100 people on the street. At least 99 would say, John who? Yes, but that would also be true of John Adams and Joan Tower and Corigliano and practically any living or recent composer except John Williams. You'd most likely get the same response from 99 out of 100 when they were asked about Aaron Copland. :-) Public ignorance is no indication of anybody's ability within their chosen art. Hear, hear! Say whatever you want about John Cage's knowledge of composing, these days nobody can argue about his skill as an expert on decomposing. ;-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Brennon Bortz Teaching Assistant and Graduate Student - Music Composition University of California, Riverside [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 4, 2007, at 3:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Hear, hear! Say whatever you want about John Cage's knowledge of composing, these days nobody can argue about his skill as an expert on decomposing. ;-) And, on mushrooms, to be sure. Dean -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Brennon Bortz Teaching Assistant and Graduate Student - Music Composition University of California, Riverside [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Amen, and nothing more needs to be averred about the importance of training, beginning in the very early years, in solfege, movement, and playing of instruments as we find in Kodaly and Orff. That's the sort of background which not only produces exceptional musicianship on a broad level, but just plain well-rounded human beings. Trust me, the world would be a far better place, if only Dean P.s., btw, Don Ellis's playing seemed seamless to me, regardless of the intricate metrical underpinning (which, I suspect, was his primary intent). On May 3, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On 3-May-07, at 11:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Most of what I saw of his had denominators like 8 and 16, denoting changing groups of subdivisions, rather than simply changing numbers of pulses. Funny that some of his work, which sounded so out there at the time, sounds rather ordinary today! This is not a criticism or a comment on lack of sophistication, but only an observation of how comfortably he was able to groove in those odd metres, and how much of it is commonplace now. I had a Romanian student who kept bringing in these jazz pieces in odd metres, and the students were having trouble reading them. He shook his head and said every ten year old in Romania can clap these rhythms, as they were simple folk dances. We stood up and put our arms across each others' shoulders and learned the dances, and ten minutes later the students were grooving their butts off! Once they knew how to dance it, they played it as easily as 4/4. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Amen, and nothing more needs to be averred about the importance of training, beginning in the very early years, in solfege, movement, and playing of instruments as we find in Kodaly and Orff. That's the sort of background which not only produces exceptional musicianship on a broad level, but just plain well-rounded human beings. Trust me, the world would be a far better place, if only Excuse me, but until fairly recently, Romania and other eastern European countries where the Kodaly and Orff methods originated and may be widely taught did not exactly serve as great role models for well-rounded human beings. I'm sure that the countries' leaders who abused civil rights and their countries' economies stood next to all the other 10 year olds and learned the same musical stuff. And it's important as well to remember that there are very well-rounded human beings who have served the interests of world peace and human kindness who never heard of Kodaly and Orff methods. Ghandi, the Dalai Lama, Jesus, Baha'ulla, are just a few such examples. The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand (Kodaly/Orff training and well-rounded human beings who make the world a better place). And while the Romanian student in the example may have been able to play in odd meters and been amazed at the other students' difficulties at first, before being taught, the example doesn't also explain that while Romanian 10-year olds my be able to handle such rhythms easily, before they've learned them as folk dances I'm sure they would have been bewildered also. The example does nothing more than show us that once someone is taught a complex rhythm or meter it becomes easy. But then we all knew that. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Well, I hear your point, and can't rebut it, except to aver that I have a strong belief that a solid basic education in the arts, esp. music and moving to music does all the things I mentioned. Obviously, there are plenty of adverse forces in the world which create the sort of chaos you mention, and many reasons why a child exposed to the above mentioned education may evolve into a miscreant or flat out evil soul. I would simply stand by the premise that the training I mentioned does not inherently produce the bad guys in our society, and in fact, does more good than harm, so, IMHO, should not be discouraged. Let's not throw out a positive because negatives exist. Who knows, if Jesus and Ghandi, e.g., had had Orff and Kodaly training, they might have had even more modes of connecting with people and it might have made their work easier. Dean On May 4, 2007, at 11:33 AM, dhbailey wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Amen, and nothing more needs to be averred about the importance of training, beginning in the very early years, in solfege, movement, and playing of instruments as we find in Kodaly and Orff. That's the sort of background which not only produces exceptional musicianship on a broad level, but just plain well-rounded human beings. Trust me, the world would be a far better place, if only Excuse me, but until fairly recently, Romania and other eastern European countries where the Kodaly and Orff methods originated and may be widely taught did not exactly serve as great role models for well-rounded human beings. I'm sure that the countries' leaders who abused civil rights and their countries' economies stood next to all the other 10 year olds and learned the same musical stuff. And it's important as well to remember that there are very well- rounded human beings who have served the interests of world peace and human kindness who never heard of Kodaly and Orff methods. Ghandi, the Dalai Lama, Jesus, Baha'ulla, are just a few such examples. The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand (Kodaly/Orff training and well-rounded human beings who make the world a better place). And while the Romanian student in the example may have been able to play in odd meters and been amazed at the other students' difficulties at first, before being taught, the example doesn't also explain that while Romanian 10-year olds my be able to handle such rhythms easily, before they've learned them as folk dances I'm sure they would have been bewildered also. The example does nothing more than show us that once someone is taught a complex rhythm or meter it becomes easy. But then we all knew that. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I didn't quite word things as I meant to in my first paragraph -- I do realize that there are many millions of wonderfully warm, well-rounded human beings in the eastern European countries of the former Soviet bloc. But there were certainly the antitheses as well, who probably had the same education. My point being that no education will guarantee wonderful results for everybody. David H. Bailey dhbailey wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Amen, and nothing more needs to be averred about the importance of training, beginning in the very early years, in solfege, movement, and playing of instruments as we find in Kodaly and Orff. That's the sort of background which not only produces exceptional musicianship on a broad level, but just plain well-rounded human beings. Trust me, the world would be a far better place, if only Excuse me, but until fairly recently, Romania and other eastern European countries where the Kodaly and Orff methods originated and may be widely taught did not exactly serve as great role models for well-rounded human beings. I'm sure that the countries' leaders who abused civil rights and their countries' economies stood next to all the other 10 year olds and learned the same musical stuff. And it's important as well to remember that there are very well-rounded human beings who have served the interests of world peace and human kindness who never heard of Kodaly and Orff methods. Ghandi, the Dalai Lama, Jesus, Baha'ulla, are just a few such examples. The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand (Kodaly/Orff training and well-rounded human beings who make the world a better place). And while the Romanian student in the example may have been able to play in odd meters and been amazed at the other students' difficulties at first, before being taught, the example doesn't also explain that while Romanian 10-year olds my be able to handle such rhythms easily, before they've learned them as folk dances I'm sure they would have been bewildered also. The example does nothing more than show us that once someone is taught a complex rhythm or meter it becomes easy. But then we all knew that. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I totally agree, and in hindsight, think my first post was, perhaps, a tad panacean. I wish California educational powers at be could realize the validity of your statement. Here the party line is All children can succeed equally as well, hence the maniacal preoccupation with the testing tail wagging the educational dog. It truly sucks. Cheers, Dean On May 4, 2007, at 12:06 PM, dhbailey wrote: I didn't quite word things as I meant to in my first paragraph -- I do realize that there are many millions of wonderfully warm, well- rounded human beings in the eastern European countries of the former Soviet bloc. But there were certainly the antitheses as well, who probably had the same education. My point being that no education will guarantee wonderful results for everybody. David H. Bailey dhbailey wrote: Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Amen, and nothing more needs to be averred about the importance of training, beginning in the very early years, in solfege, movement, and playing of instruments as we find in Kodaly and Orff. That's the sort of background which not only produces exceptional musicianship on a broad level, but just plain well- rounded human beings. Trust me, the world would be a far better place, if only Excuse me, but until fairly recently, Romania and other eastern European countries where the Kodaly and Orff methods originated and may be widely taught did not exactly serve as great role models for well-rounded human beings. I'm sure that the countries' leaders who abused civil rights and their countries' economies stood next to all the other 10 year olds and learned the same musical stuff. And it's important as well to remember that there are very well- rounded human beings who have served the interests of world peace and human kindness who never heard of Kodaly and Orff methods. Ghandi, the Dalai Lama, Jesus, Baha'ulla, are just a few such examples. The two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand (Kodaly/Orff training and well-rounded human beings who make the world a better place). And while the Romanian student in the example may have been able to play in odd meters and been amazed at the other students' difficulties at first, before being taught, the example doesn't also explain that while Romanian 10-year olds my be able to handle such rhythms easily, before they've learned them as folk dances I'm sure they would have been bewildered also. The example does nothing more than show us that once someone is taught a complex rhythm or meter it becomes easy. But then we all knew that. :-) -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I put John Cage in the naked emperor category, and have for a long time. Then again, what do the people on the street know about composing and composers? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Phil Daley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 6:38 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 At 5/3/2007 03:00 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I would say John Cage knew nothing about composing. Survey 100 people on the street. At least 99 would say, John who? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I heard he was cream-ated. Yuk yuk Cream of mushroom...? Jerry Gerald Berg On 4-May-07, at 1:56 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: On May 4, 2007, at 3:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Hear, hear! Say whatever you want about John Cage's knowledge of composing, these days nobody can argue about his skill as an expert on decomposing. ;-) And, on mushrooms, to be sure. Dean -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Brennon Bortz Teaching Assistant and Graduate Student - Music Composition University of California, Riverside [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Southeastern European folk music often yields lopsided meters when converted to Western notation--check out, e.g., the alla bulgarese movement in the Bartók (IIRC) 5th quartet. When my harp concerto was recorded in Moravia the musicians all took very well to extended sections in 5/4 and 7/4. When it was premiered in the US there was a lot of bitching about those meters from professionals who should've known better. And when I visited Hungary I was treated to a fine concert by grade-school level kids at one of the Kodaly schools, including an oboe duet by 4th graders, something we don't often here stateside. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Yes, he was--actually two presidents! It's amazing how many radio callers-in also put Benjamin Franklin in that category. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Phil Daley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 At 5/4/2007 06:48 AM, dhbailey wrote: Yes, but that would also be true of John Adams Wasn't he a president? 95 out of 100 would know him. and Joan Tower and Corigliano Who? Those would get 1 out of 10,000 at most. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 3, 2007, at 4:24 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorification de L'Elue in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) I defy any performer or listener to not group those 11 beats into some accent pattern. I don't. Never have. In my younger years I didn't even *count* the beats in that bar--it was just (as it is clearly supposed to be) an undifferentiated pounding that eventually gives way to something else. Eleven beats (a prime number) was, I would suggest, deliberately chosen by Stravinsky to meet the following criteria: 1) It must go on long enough to give the listener the impression that it might well continue indefinitely. 2) Nonetheless, it should be the shortest possible measure that could convey such an impression. 3) It should actively discourage the listener from imagining any kind of subdivision. I would consider any performance that worked against this conception to be flawed. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 4-May-07, at 6:38 AM, Phil Daley wrote: Survey 100 people on the street. At least 99 would say, John who? To which you reply, You know: the guy Nicholas Cage named himself after. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 4, 2007, at 8:51 AM, dhbailey wrote: Anonymity among the general public doesn't make anybody any less of a composer, and so has no bearing on any comment that Cage wasn't much into composing. Classical music by anyone, of any type, anywhere, anywhen, and of any culture, is by definition a minority taste. Expecting it to be popular is like expecting fine dining at MacDonald's. (And no, that wasn't a putdown of MacDonald's. Think about where you *do* find fine dining, and what percentage of the population patronises it) Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 04 May 2007, at 11:09 AM, Gerald Berg wrote: Ever missing the point. You told me not to be asinine for expressing an informed opinion -- informed I stress. Yes, I did take it personally -- you meant for me to take it personally. Otherwise, why word it that way? Me calling you an ass I meant personally. Ergo even. Twitter twitter. No, Jerry. You did not express an informed opinion. It's not like you posted a scholarly essay in which you analyze Don Cherry's playing and describe, in depth, your specific objections to it. What you expressed was snark -- a cheap shot, nothing more. You may *have* an informed opinion, but you certainly did not *express* an informed opinion in your message to the list. Again, here's what you wrote in response to Stu Macintire, who thought the answer to Dean's question (Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4) might be Don Cherry: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. I already pointed out the absurdity of claiming that the members of the classic Ornette Coleman groups (of which Don Cherry was an integral part) weren't into meter at all, especially given that in the early 1970's, Don was known for bringing odd-meter folkloric rhythms (from Turkey, Bulgaria, etc.) into jazz, and developed a method for teaching those rhythms that has become highly influential. Don Cherry was, by any objective standard, as into meter as Don Ellis. You already admitted that you didn't know this, so your opinion can't have been *that* well-informed. As for claiming Don was barely into trumpet playing, that's a ridiculous statement. Regardless of whether or not you personally think he was any good or not, Don devoted his entire life to trumpet playing. That is not the act of someone who is barely into trumpet playing. You don't like him, you find him ridiculous -- fine. You are absolutely entitled to your assessment. But saying he was barely into trumpet playing crosses the line -- I'm at a loss as to how you divine that someone who spent their lifetime playing the trumpet was barely into it. What did you do, hold a seance? Listen -- I literally do not know a single trumpet player in New York under the age of 40 that has not been influenced by Don Cherry. He is a hero to people like Dave Douglas, Ingrid Jensen, Taylor Ho Bynum, Cuong Vu, Jonathan Finlayson, Ralph Alessi, Avishai Cohen, Steven Bernstein, Shane Endsley, and many others. Maybe you think all those people are barely into trumpet playing as well, but I happen to know otherwise. Don Cherry's music means a great deal to me and to all of my musical associates. You want to take cheap shots at him? Fine, but then don't go reaching for the smelling salts when someone objects in strong terms to what you said. You were joking, yes, but your joke *was* asinine, and based on incorrect assumptions about Don's supposed lack of interest in meter. Finally, do you really not understand the difference between don't be asinine -- in other words, that think you just said was asinine -- and personal insults? I though what you said in this specific instance was stupid. *You* actually I generally like, this current episode notwithstanding. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
It's interesting that I've always enjoyed Don Cherry in O. Coleman's groups, yet never have on his own albums (in fact one of his was one of the rare records that I threw away after the used record store wouldn't take it). Whatever he is or isn't into a lot of Coleman is some of the most compelling music that I've ever heard (even though a lot of my fellow radio programmers at KOPN who were into jazz didn't even consider it music. Life goes on in all cases. Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 04 May 2007, at 11:09 AM, Gerald Berg wrote: Ever missing the point. You told me not to be asinine for expressing an informed opinion -- informed I stress. Yes, I did take it personally -- you meant for me to take it personally. Otherwise, why word it that way? Me calling you an ass I meant personally. Ergo even. Twitter twitter. No, Jerry. You did not express an informed opinion. It's not like you posted a scholarly essay in which you analyze Don Cherry's playing and describe, in depth, your specific objections to it. What you expressed was snark -- a cheap shot, nothing more. You may *have* an informed opinion, but you certainly did not *express* an informed opinion in your message to the list. Again, here's what you wrote in response to Stu Macintire, who thought the answer to Dean's question (Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4) might be Don Cherry: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. I already pointed out the absurdity of claiming that the members of the classic Ornette Coleman groups (of which Don Cherry was an integral part) weren't into meter at all, especially given that in the early 1970's, Don was known for bringing odd-meter folkloric rhythms (from Turkey, Bulgaria, etc.) into jazz, and developed a method for teaching those rhythms that has become highly influential. Don Cherry was, by any objective standard, as into meter as Don Ellis. You already admitted that you didn't know this, so your opinion can't have been *that* well-informed. As for claiming Don was barely into trumpet playing, that's a ridiculous statement. Regardless of whether or not you personally think he was any good or not, Don devoted his entire life to trumpet playing. That is not the act of someone who is barely into trumpet playing. You don't like him, you find him ridiculous -- fine. You are absolutely entitled to your assessment. But saying he was barely into trumpet playing crosses the line -- I'm at a loss as to how you divine that someone who spent their lifetime playing the trumpet was barely into it. What did you do, hold a seance? Listen -- I literally do not know a single trumpet player in New York under the age of 40 that has not been influenced by Don Cherry. He is a hero to people like Dave Douglas, Ingrid Jensen, Taylor Ho Bynum, Cuong Vu, Jonathan Finlayson, Ralph Alessi, Avishai Cohen, Steven Bernstein, Shane Endsley, and many others. Maybe you think all those people are barely into trumpet playing as well, but I happen to know otherwise. Don Cherry's music means a great deal to me and to all of my musical associates. You want to take cheap shots at him? Fine, but then don't go reaching for the smelling salts when someone objects in strong terms to what you said. You were joking, yes, but your joke *was* asinine, and based on incorrect assumptions about Don's supposed lack of interest in meter. Finally, do you really not understand the difference between don't be asinine -- in other words, that think you just said was asinine -- and personal insults? I though what you said in this specific instance was stupid. *You* actually I generally like, this current episode notwithstanding. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
5/4 and 7/4 giving pros problems in the US? Man, in the LO we drink the 5/8s and 7/16s like mother's milk - we've been playing that stuff since our first day in the band. You've just got a grouchy bunch of pros! Ray Horton Bass Trombone, Louisville Orchestra Aaron Rabushka wrote: Southeastern European folk music often yields lopsided meters when converted to Western notation--check out, e.g., the alla bulgarese movement in the Bartók (IIRC) 5th quartet. When my harp concerto was recorded in Moravia the musicians all took very well to extended sections in 5/4 and 7/4. When it was premiered in the US there was a lot of bitching about those meters from professionals who should've known better. And when I visited Hungary I was treated to a fine concert by grade-school level kids at one of the Kodaly schools, including an oboe duet by 4th graders, something we don't often here stateside. A ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
At 02:10 AM 5/3/2007, Owain Sutton wrote: Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. Of course: I-GOR STRA-VIN-SKY IS A SON OF A B is how we learned it. g Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean M. Estabrook Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:15 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 5/2/2007 2:16 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 5/2/2007 2:16 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
DON ELLIS ? Stan lord On 3 May 2007, at 16:14, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis I have his book The New Rhythm Book published 1972 Psychedelic! Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 11:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I would guess that you're talking about Don Ellis Dick H On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 12:42 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
YEAH ... somehow, I knew Chuck would know. Wonder if he's still alive and performing. Last time I saw him, I think, was at the Monterey Festival ... decades ago. Dean On May 3, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Imus? ;-) At 5/3/2007 12:02 PM, Richard Willis wrote: Don Ellis? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean M. Estabrook Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:15 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis, perhaps? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Better than a boor. Really uncouth. It was in jest but with some truth. You must be confusing them with Dave Brubeck. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:58 PM, Darcy James
Better than a boor. Really uncouth. Twas in jest but with some truth. You must be confusing them with Dave Brubeck. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 12:42 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
No - Don died fairly young. He had some unusual disease, I think. I remember that he spoke about it to me at one point when I casually asked how he was doing. He didn't go into the particulars but somehow made it clear that there was something going on that did not show on the surface. Chuck On May 3, 2007, at 10:10 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: YEAH ... somehow, I knew Chuck would know. Wonder if he's still alive and performing. Last time I saw him, I think, was at the Monterey Festival ... decades ago. Dean On May 3, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. I saw him in concert at Dartmouth college in Spring of 1970, and was dumbfounded at how horrible it was. Just him on pocket trumpet, Okay Tamiz (never heard of him before or after that concert) on drums if I recall correctly and Johnny D'Jahni (sp?) on bass. And it never seemed as if any of them were listening to each other or even paying attention to themselves. The program listed two different titles for the first half, then it said INTERMISSION then listed a third title for the second half of the concert. It turns out the intermission was when Don Cherry walked off the stage. The bass and drums kept right on playing, non-stop, until he walked onstage again and resumed his total isolationist playing without paying any attention to the others. It was a real eye-opener that people who could play that poorly and that unorganizedly couldget paid. In hindsight, I should have asked who their agent was so that I could have gotten some non-playing gigs like that. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Oops. This works. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 2:34 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: Better than a boor. Really uncouth. Twas in jest but with some truth. You must be confusing them with Dave Brubeck. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 12:42 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis is dead and so is his son. They had an inherited pulmonary heart disease of some sort. Heart balloned in his chest and basically burst. Real nice. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 1:10 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: YEAH ... somehow, I knew Chuck would know. Wonder if he's still alive and performing. Last time I saw him, I think, was at the Monterey Festival ... decades ago. Dean On May 3, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Yeah -- anyone who plays jazz without a predetermined set of chord changes must perforce be a total charlatan. Never heard *that* one before -- it's a real knee-slapper. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 2:34 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: Twas in jest but with some truth. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 2:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music Erg. Should be personal music, not person music. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Thanks David Darcy is obviously not into reading carefully and into responding emotionally. There must be a hounding of tastes. I think Eddie Blackwell a magnificent musician. No one like him. I love him. And yes he could play both rhythm and meter. And he doesn't require this type of defense. I like Ornette too. But for Don Cherry-- it is true. I think him ridiculous. And he could not play the trumpet. Now if you want to talk about how he made the trumpet into something else... I guess that's true. As for the not into meter comment -- if you read it-- I was clearly referring to the Ornette band. You must have been thinking I was talking about Dave Brubeck. I'm glad for him that Cherry found 'Meter' later in life. We all gotta go someplace. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 2:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
That was Okay Temiz and Johnny Dyani. Temiz, a turkish born drummer, was (and is) rather well-known for his early explorations of incorporating odd metered rhythms as well as ethno elements into jazz. Hans Stockholm, Sweden dhbailey wrote: I saw him in concert at Dartmouth college in Spring of 1970, and was dumbfounded at how horrible it was. Just him on pocket trumpet, Okay Tamiz (never heard of him before or after that concert) on drums if I recall correctly and Johnny D'Jahni (sp?) on bass. And it never seemed as if any of them were listening to each other or even paying attention to themselves. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: ...And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) You raise some very good points. However, can we agree that Don Cherry is a lousy hockey commentator? -Randolph Peters P.S. Sorry everyone. I probably should have put a Canadian Humour Alert at the top. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3-May-07, at 11:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Most of what I saw of his had denominators like 8 and 16, denoting changing groups of subdivisions, rather than simply changing numbers of pulses. Funny that some of his work, which sounded so out there at the time, sounds rather ordinary today! This is not a criticism or a comment on lack of sophistication, but only an observation of how comfortably he was able to groove in those odd metres, and how much of it is commonplace now. I had a Romanian student who kept bringing in these jazz pieces in odd metres, and the students were having trouble reading them. He shook his head and said every ten year old in Romania can clap these rhythms, as they were simple folk dances. We stood up and put our arms across each others' shoulders and learned the dances, and ten minutes later the students were grooving their butts off! Once they knew how to dance it, they played it as easily as 4/4. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But look at what he actually did with his life -- not what he said he'd rather have done. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 4:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 7:10, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 [] But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) I defy any performer or listener to not group those 11 beats into some accent pattern. And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. Fluidity and meter do not conflict with each other one bit. If Stravinsky thought they did, he was simply mistaken. I actually suspect his point was something else entirely, though it often is interpreted exactly as you suggest. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3-May-07, at 2:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. I didn't like Cherry's trumpet playing from a technical point of view, but he WAS able to communicate as a musician. Check out Ornette's first album, The Shape Of Jazz To Come, and tell me that Lonely Woman isn't a passionate, expressive work. Jimmy Guiffre wasn't a stellar clarinetist, either, but my jaw dropped when I heard a duo album he recorded with Paul Bley (the title escapes me now). Gorgeous, concise, fantastically-constructed improvisations without the tons of notes that usually characterise modern improvisations, that made you completely forget the weedy little sound he had. Both of them fantastic musicians, not the greatest technicians. I wouldn't dismiss either of them. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:03 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
The Giuffre trio records with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow are classic. Originally recorded for Verve, the first two were reissued by ECM as Jimmy Giuffre 3 1961. The other one is called Free Fall, on Columbia. Perhaps it was one of those you are thinking of? (There are several duo tracks, where Swallow lays out and it's just Paul and Jimmy.) Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 3:55 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Jimmy Guiffre wasn't a stellar clarinetist, either, but my jaw dropped when I heard a duo album he recorded with Paul Bley (the title escapes me now). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Sorry, David -- I missed this sentence on first reading: And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. So, uh, obviously not. My apologies. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:15 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:03 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? And recordings I heard of him at about that time. In light of Andrew's comment about a concert he heard Don Cherry and another comment of a more recent recording, I can easily admit that my dismissal of Cherry may be unfair. But with all the fine musicians there are in the world, I don't have time to spend pursuing musicians who treat me with disdain as an audience member or who play in a manner that I find distasteful. Life's too short and there are just too many musicians to try to hear them all, so if I don't like someone I move on to others. I don't listen to Marion Brown for the same reason. And he even taught a jazz history course at my college. He treated us as students with great disdain, too, very much with a just give me the money attitude. He didn't bother to show up to several classes and didn't bother to call the school so we just sat there waiting. I had signed up for the course thinking At last, I can learn about jazz history from someone who is helping make it! I learned more from the books I read on my own than I ever learned from that class. People with bad attitudes, I don't care who they are, I won't waste my time with them. And I don't expect them to waste their time with me if they find that I have a bad attitude, either. Burn me once and I may never give a listen again. And for all I know Don Cherry may cringe when he hears recordings he made in the late 60s and early 70s, as he has moved beyond that stage. Or he may still be proud of them. That's fine. But I've found other musicians to listen to whose music resonates with me much more. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 16:46, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 03 May 2007, at 4:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But look at what he actually did with his life -- not what he said he'd rather have done. As a philosopher of arts, he was a genius. As a musician/composer, not so much. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Yes, of course! I had heard first one of the duo tracks, so I based my impression of a duo album on that. Thanks for the reference. I will pick those up, as I loved what I heard. Christopher On 3-May-07, at 5:14 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: The Giuffre trio records with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow are classic. Originally recorded for Verve, the first two were reissued by ECM as Jimmy Giuffre 3 1961. The other one is called Free Fall, on Columbia. Perhaps it was one of those you are thinking of? (There are several duo tracks, where Swallow lays out and it's just Paul and Jimmy.) On 03 May 2007, at 3:55 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Jimmy Guiffre wasn't a stellar clarinetist, either, but my jaw dropped when I heard a duo album he recorded with Paul Bley (the title escapes me now). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
See Darcy? Slow down. I'm still expecting an apology. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 5:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Sorry, David -- I missed this sentence on first reading: And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. So, uh, obviously not. My apologies. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:15 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:03 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
For what, exactly? You took an ignorant cheap shot at a musician you don't, apparently, know much about, and I corrected you. And you haven't offered a substantial rebuttal to any of my points, other than to assert that in your opinion, Don is ridiculous and could not play the trumpet. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 6:05 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: I'm still expecting an apology. Jerry Gerald Berg ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I think Cage was more important as an influence than as a composer. That is not to diminish his importance at all. Cheers, Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 18:39, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 03 May 2007, at 5:37 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 16:46, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 03 May 2007, at 4:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But look at what he actually did with his life -- not what he said he'd rather have done. As a philosopher of arts, he was a genius. As a musician/composer, not so much. The point is that John Cage in fact devoted his life to composing, and is a hugely important figure in 20th century music. I'm not particularly interested in any one individual's assessment of his work here -- I'm not particularly a fan of most of his post-4'33 stuff myself. But it would be absurd to claim that someone like Cage was barely into composition. From my definition of composition and music, he didn't do too much of it. Of course some of his early stuff, before he got obsessed with philosophy over music-making, is pretty fascinating. I wish he'd continued in that vein instead of abandoning music-making in favor of provocation. Too much of Cage's influence comes from his ideas and not from his actual music. It's like the old joke that Richard Hofmann at Oberlin used to tell, poking fun at concept music -- he always said he had a concept piece, for children's chorus and child molester. There is no punchline. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1 May 2007 at 22:44, John Howell wrote: Did you miss the day in elementary school when they explained the placement of strong and weak beats in a measure? I must have missed the day where the measure with 12 8th-note beats was explained. What, exactly, is the accent pattern there? And, no, I don't mean the normal 12/8 with 4 beats of dotted quarter each, since that's not 12 beats to the measure. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1 May 2007 at 22:22, John Howell wrote: And do pay attention to David Fenton's comments. The meter chosen should fit the music. If it's in 12, then 12/8 is appropriate. If it's some kind of mixed meter, it might not be. Er, that isn't what I said! I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Stiller Sent: 02 May 2007 22:05 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Andrew Stiller I agree with both of you ;) 12/8 alone does indeed have very fixed implications. A grouping of 3+2+3+4 or whatever is perfectly acceptable and possible, but there needs to be explicit indication of this (through beaming, symbolic indication, etc., depending on context). And the latter suggestion, of constantly-changing x/8 metres, is a very good point. One I've encountered regularly, actually, but never given this situation much thought. I don't think I'd ever hit 12/8 in these, perhaps because 12 beats was just too many, with most bars being 2-5 quavers. Perhaps it was simply that when I was working in that context, the concept of compound time signatures never crossed my mind? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1-May-07, at 2:15 PM, timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. Depends on the music, but 12/8 is almost always divided into 4 groups of 3, so it would best be conducted in a 4 pattern as follows: 1 (bounce, bounce) 2 (bounce, bounce) 3 (bounce, bounce) 4 (bounce, bounce). Your piece may be different, but that's the default. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1 May 2007 at 14:15, timothy.key.price wrote: Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Yes. If it's not in 12/8, don't notate it in 12/8. Putting it in 12/8 means that there *is* an emphasis on 4 beats of dotted quarter. If there isn't, then you've chosen the wrong meter for notation. This kind of thing isn't really that hard to figure out, seems to me. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
12/8 is usually conducted in 4, or if it's extremely slow each beat is subdivided into three. The slow movement of Beethoven's 6th Symphony (Beethoven's MM being dotted quarter = 50) is conducted in 4. 12/8 is never conducted in 3 sets of 4/8: if the measures are rhythmically so divided, the time signature should be 3/2. If the tempo of your piece is eighth note = 50, it would have to be conducted with subdivided beats. This is OK, but many conductors, including myself, find long passges of subdivided 12/8 rather tiresome: you might try cutting it into shorter measures. Best wishes, Michael On 1 May 2007, at 20:15, timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
The opening of the Firebird is another case of beating 12s. From the other side of the stand, I've encountered some bizarre and meaningless hand-waving. My preference is for a large slow 4-beat motion, each step of which is divided with two smaller beats to indicate the quaver motion. This avoids having more than one downbeat per bar (which is a killer if you get lost!), and keeps the compound structure of the metre intact. The latter point is important - 12/8 conventionally implies a division into four large beats. If you want to avoid this interpretation, avoid 12/8. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of timothy.key.price Sent: 01 May 2007 19:16 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. Thank you in advance, Tim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. [snip] Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. It's been my experience that conductors do not like long measures of slow tempo. Making twice as many measures in 6/8 is better than longer measures of 12/8 at 1/8 = 50 MM. Even though it makes no difference mathematically, it helps with the beating patterns and the score/part reading. A musician can discern much easier where you are with 6 beats rather than 12. (I'm assuming that the 4 beats of three pulses does not apply here.) I'd even be tempted to go with mostly 4/4, use tuplets, and let the music fall where it needs to go. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 1-May-07, at 3:26 PM, Randolph Peters wrote: timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. [snip] Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. It's been my experience that conductors do not like long measures of slow tempo. Making twice as many measures in 6/8 is better than longer measures of 12/8 at 1/8 = 50 MM. Even though it makes no difference mathematically, it helps with the beating patterns and the score/part reading. A musician can discern much easier where you are with 6 beats rather than 12. (I'm assuming that the 4 beats of three pulses does not apply here.) Whatever you go with, make sure the notation reflects the beating. There is nothing worse than having one thing on the page, and a contradictory beat going on in your face. Someone mentioned that 3 groups of 4 eighths would be best notated in 3/2, which I would agree with. I think many conductors can deal with long slow measures, whether they like it or not. Or maybe I'm spoiled (our conductor in the Sherbrooke Symphony is very good, and I have played under him for a long time now.) I'd even be tempted to go with mostly 4/4, use tuplets, and let the music fall where it needs to go. I wouldn't go that far. The notation needs to reflect the music. Eighth notes at 50 BPM are going to be horrendous as a tuplet. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Thanks to everyone who replied. I have a very much clearer understanding of the issues so can resolve it with the better notation, now that I understand the alternatives. It was a new situation for me; it had evolved and hadn't really considered it much before. Thank you again, tim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Having just recently performed Beethoven's Sixth Symphony I have an additional comment on the 12/8 movement. When you start to subdivide the measure into 12 pulses the tempo will drag. Many years ago I recall my conducting professor standing at my elbow and saying many times, Don't subdivide; it makes the orchestra slow down. Experience has shown him to have been correct. When you need to slow things down, sub-divide. When you need the tempo to pick-up, make the pattern smaller and increase the sharpness of the ictus. It works (almost) every time! Guy Hayden -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Cook Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:59 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 12/8 is usually conducted in 4, or if it's extremely slow each beat is subdivided into three. The slow movement of Beethoven's 6th Symphony (Beethoven's MM being dotted quarter = 50) is conducted in 4. 12/8 is never conducted in 3 sets of 4/8: if the measures are rhythmically so divided, the time signature should be 3/2. If the tempo of your piece is eighth note = 50, it would have to be conducted with subdivided beats. This is OK, but many conductors, including myself, find long passges of subdivided 12/8 rather tiresome: you might try cutting it into shorter measures. Best wishes, Michael On 1 May 2007, at 20:15, timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
At 2:15 PM -0400 5/1/07, timothy.key.price wrote: If there are some on this list who might offer some advice, I have a question: A section of amorphous music for stings is now in 12/8 time at 1/8-50 which is very slow and no beat is stressed. As each of the many voice lines moves on a different beat, the 12/8 allows for this type of writing, however, I have no idea how it would be conducted. A similar example might be the 2nd movement of Beethoven's 6th, although his repeated string patterns lend it structural definition: he consistently divides the measure into 4 pulses. Is 12/8 a problem? is it usually conducted in 3 sets of 4/8 per measure? or 4 sets of 3/8, or 2 sets of 6/8? or all of the above are possible. Or should I rewrite it and absolutely choose another meter and increase the note value? Help/ lost. Thank you in advance, You've had some awfully good advice. I'd just like to ask why you're curious about how to conduct it? Any first-semester conducting student could answer the question. And do pay attention to David Fenton's comments. The meter chosen should fit the music. If it's in 12, then 12/8 is appropriate. If it's some kind of mixed meter, it might not be. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 1, 2007, at 10:22 PM, John Howell wrote: You've had some awfully good advice. I'd just like to ask why you're curious about how to conduct it? Any first-semester conducting student could answer the question. And do pay attention to David Fenton's comments. The meter chosen should fit the music. If it's in 12, then 12/8 is appropriate. If it's some kind of mixed meter, it might not be. John Thank you John, I appreciate that anyone could probably answer my question; This 120 measure section is without a consistent pulse. It has tension and relaxation, it rises and falls, but it is very amorphous. I ended up re-notating it in 3/8 which pays no attention to were resolutions occur or to where new phrases begin, but that said, at this slow tempo, it is absolutely clear by the beat pattern, where you are in the 3/8 measure. The notes form phrases witch any sensitive person can play expressively, but in a simple 3/8 meter everyone will be together. This has worked out to be a good solution for this piece, I believe. I would rather err in favor of clarity of where we are than worry about indicating where the stressed beats should be. thanks again to all. Tim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Randolph Peters wrote: It's been my experience that conductors do not like long measures of slow tempo. John Howell wrote: OH? conductors do what is necessary to serve the music. I can't imagine what such a generalization could have grown out of. I'm talking about MY real world experience here. Of course a conductor is going to try and serve the music and do what is necessary. When you get outside of academia, you'll find that the theory of what should be done is often at odds with what actually is preferred. On this question, I've had conversations about it with the current conductors of the Vancouver Symphony, the Canadian Opera Company, Baltimore Symphony and the Winnipeg Symphony for starters. When it comes to new music, they simply don't like conducting long measures with many beats and slow tempos. Making twice as many measures in 6/8 is better than longer measures of 12/8 at 1/8 = 50 MM. If the music is in 6, that's true. If it's in 12 it isn't. You can't just manipulate the math without considering the music and its natural phrasing. In fact the phrasing IS the music, not just one dam note after another. It was clear from the original post that the music didn't have a pulse (very slow and no beat is stressed) and therefore there was no reason not to make smaller measures. Even though it makes no difference mathematically, it helps with the beating patterns and the score/part reading. It makes a huge difference. Did you miss the day in elementary school when they explained the placement of strong and weak beats in a measure? Did you miss the fact that we are talking about a new composition here? That means it just might not fit the traditional pattern of emphases. It just might not have any strong and weak beats. Oh yeah, the original poster already said that. A musician can discern much easier where you are with 6 beats rather than 12. (I'm assuming that the 4 beats of three pulses does not apply here.) Huh? That's EXACTLY what applies in the question that was asked. And a clear beat pattern that's subdivided cleanly is no problem at all to follow. Random hand waving, sure, that's ALWAYS difficult to follow, but it isn't good conducting, either. Who is talking about random hand waving? I'd even be tempted to go with mostly 4/4, use tuplets, and let the music fall where it needs to go. Sorry, not at the tempo specified. Now if all is going well I might indeed lighten or even remove the subdivision pulses. Any sensitive conductor who understands which level of pulse is most important would do the same. And one of the worst habits music education students can fall into is excessive subdivision, which just slows the music down and makes it heavy. When you are dealing with amorphous music, there are very good reasons to notate it in a simple meter such as 4/4. The music cuts across the bar lines and doesn't follow the strong/weak beat pattern, but the steady meter keeps things easier to rehearse. The 4/4 is just a way to keep the ensemble together and to know where you are in the piece. Once you move into a different rhythmic conception, sure, use the meters (or non-meters) that make the most sense musically. In this particular case, I still would look at the option of writing the moving 8ths as quarters (or half notes even) and putting it into something like 4/4, but I would probably recommend better options if I saw the actual score (or pre-score). Sorry to react so negatively, Randolph, but that's really the way I feel about it. Nothing personal. We hear a lot on this list from engravers, arrangers, and performers. And that's all good and useful information, especially to composers. But composers have notational ideas and issues that need to be considered as well. There are many ways to notate rhythmically amorphous music and we've seen plenty of successful and less successful examples over the past hundred or so years. Those notations sometimes get in the way of learning how to perform the music. On the other hand, sometimes a strange or difficult notation is paramount to understanding and performing the piece. Unless there is a strong reason to do otherwise, for practical reasons I recommend notating it simply (and only as simple or complex as it needs to be) and get over the fact that it might conflict with what some of us learned in elementary school. -Randolph Peters ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 02 May 2007, at 12:54 AM, Randolph Peters wrote: [snipped in its entirety] Amen, Randolph. Great comments and insight. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
