Cannot produce PDF for a book

[Bertrand Meyer]

Hi,

I guess this is a Distiller rather than FrameMaker problem and I seem to
have a workaround, but I would be interested to know if anyone on this list
knows about the problem and has a more direct solution.

When generating PDF for a book from FrameMaker, the process stops in the
last pages with the message


%%[ ProductName: Distiller ]%%
%%[Page: 1]%%
%%[Page: 2]%%
%%[Page: 3]%%
%%[Page: 4]%%
%%[ Error: typecheck; OffendingCommand: pdfmark; ErrorInfo: StOBJ
--nostringval-- ]%%

Stack:
/StOBJ
{A.4.299011.1}
/Obj
-dict-


%%[ Flushing: rest of job (to end-of-file) will be ignored ]%%
%%[ Warning: PostScript error. No PDF file produced. ] %%
--

Version: FrameMaker on Windows, 7.2b128. 

Before my latest changes to the book, FrameMaker was generating PDF fine.

I was rather devastated this when I suddenly hit this. Then, since I
fortunately have Distiller (version 9.0.11), I generated Postscript for the
book; this worked, then I distilled the result separately, which also
worked. I hope this somewhat tedious workaround continues to work; I assume
FrameMaker uses another version of Distiller (and I did not see a way to
tell FrameMaker to use another). Still, if anyone has a better suggestion I
would be most grateful.

Thanks, 

-- Bertrand Meyer
ETH Zurich

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Purchase question

[Bertrand Meyer]

This is a newbie question; on the technical side I am not a FrameMaker newbie, 
having used it for several decades, but I am not familiar with recent versions 
since I have stuck to old ones which do what I need, on Solaris and Windows. 
With recent releases of Windows, however, FrameMaker 7.2, which I still use, 
crashes increasingly often (for example just using the mouse to select text 
that includes a table invariably causes a crash). That’s not sustainable so I 
need to upgrade. For the most recent version all I saw on Adobe’s page is a 
software-for-rent solution, which is not acceptable. Could someone please 
recommend a version that is the most recent possible, is available for 
purchase, works reliably on recent versions of Windows (Windows 8.1, soon 
Windows 10), will take older *.fm files, generate MIF, and retain the 
traditional FrameMaker advantages?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

 

___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
or visit 
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com

Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Cannot produce PDF for a book

[Bertrand Meyer]

Hi,

I guess this is a Distiller rather than FrameMaker problem and I seem to
have a workaround, but I would be interested to know if anyone on this list
knows about the problem and has a more direct solution.

When generating PDF for a book from FrameMaker, the process stops in the
last pages with the message


%%[ ProductName: Distiller ]%%
%%[Page: 1]%%
%%[Page: 2]%%
%%[Page: 3]%%
%%[Page: 4]%%
%%[ Error: typecheck; OffendingCommand: pdfmark; ErrorInfo: StOBJ
--nostringval-- ]%%

Stack:
/StOBJ
{A.4.299011.1}
/Obj
-dict-


%%[ Flushing: rest of job (to end-of-file) will be ignored ]%%
%%[ Warning: PostScript error. No PDF file produced. ] %%
--

Version: FrameMaker on Windows, 7.2b128. 

Before my latest changes to the book, FrameMaker was generating PDF fine.

I was rather devastated this when I suddenly hit this. Then, since I
fortunately have Distiller (version 9.0.11), I generated Postscript for the
book; this worked, then I distilled the result separately, which also
worked. I hope this somewhat tedious workaround continues to work; I assume
FrameMaker uses another version of Distiller (and I did not see a way to
tell FrameMaker to use another). Still, if anyone has a better suggestion I
would be most grateful.

Thanks, 

-- Bertrand Meyer
ETH Zurich

Re: [Framers] Frame 15 UI annoyances

[Bertrand Meyer]

Simple. My license is purchased. With Adobe's licensing scheme, I am
concerned that if for example my computer dies I could lose access to
FrameMaker 2015 any time and hence lose access to my documents. My
experience of dealing with Adobe is not good (euphemism) and I fear it could
take weeks to get the license back, if at all. I have licenses for earlier
versions on various platforms and with a MIF 7.0 I can in an emergency get
access to my documents.

By the way, going to an incompatible version of MIF was a betrayal of the
FrameMaker tradition. It had always been the case that in processing MIF
files the tool took a hands-off approach to MIF, in the spirit of XML: new
versions could add all the new features they wanted, but when retrieving a
document FrameMaker would ignore anything it did not understand, so that as
long as you did not use the new features you were safe and could go back to
an old version. That is the idea behind MIF: "I" stands for Interchange. 

For the record I have been using FrameMaker since 1991  and have written
something like 12 books and dozens of articles with it. I cannot afford to
lose them. 

-- Bertrand Meyer

-Original Message-
From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 16:05
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; 'An email list for people using Adobe
FrameMaker software.' <framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: [Framers] Frame 15 UI annoyances

Hi Bertrand,

What is your reason for saving as MIF 7.0 instead of MIF 2015? Thanks.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-366-4017




-Original Message-
From: Framers
[mailto:framers-bounces+rick=rickquatro@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Bertrand Meyer
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2017 6:32 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: [Framers] Frame 15 UI annoyances

FrameMaker 2015, 13.00.333

1. I am saving in MIF 7.0. Any way to get rid of the pesky dialog that warns
me each time that I am losing information (I am not)?  It's driving me
crazy.
2. I unchecked "Auto backup on Save" in Preferences, but I still get my
folders polluted with silly x.auto.fm files. How can I get rid of them?

These issues did not arise with earlier versions. 

Thanks in advance,

-- Bertrand Meyer

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at
http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at
http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

[Framers] Linking to a paragraph

[Bertrand Meyer]

Is there a way to create a link to a paragraph in the same document?

 

In the list of possible destinations I see page numbers, but that is not
good, since page boundaries move around and in fact I need finer-grain
targets.

 

I just want to select a paragraph and create a link to it. Not a
cross-reference; at least I don't see how to do this with a cross-reference,
since a cross-reference has a format which depends on the target paragraph,
not the source paragraph. What I need is links in sentences such as 

 

first prepare a chili sauce, then a Peach Melba, then mix
them

 

where "chili sauce" and "Peach Melba" are underlined, and are links going to
the corresponding destinations. Each of these destinations is a paragraph in
the document.

 

This is very easy to do for URLs (Hypertext: message URL http://whatever, I
have been doing this for years) but paradoxically I don't see a simple
equivalent for intra-document links. Maybe I am missing something obvious.

 

The alternative that I can use now is to add destinations explicitly: in the
chili sauce paragraph add a marker

 

newlink chili sauce

 

and at the point of the link add a marker

 

gotolink chili sauce

 

This works but does not scale up: I will have hundreds, in fact several
thousands, of such links; it is an enormous waste of time to have to type
"newlink P" for each one of them and "gotolink P" for each reference, when
each of these "P" is already a paragraph. I would like to do as with
cross-references: be presented with a list of the existing paragraphs and
select one of them.

 

I do see a workaround: I have looked at the generated MIF and see where
exactly the "newlink P" and "gotolink P" appear. Since my target paragraphs
are all of one specific paragraph type, I can write a script that massages
the MIF and inserts at least a "newlink P" for every P of that type. But
this is a heavy-artillery solution, and means I must regenerate the MIF,
close the document, run the script and go back to FrameMaker after each
significant change. If there is a way to achieve the result through the
normal UI I would like to know about it.

 

I am using FrameMaker 15, although the question seems version-independent.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

 

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

[Framers] Frame 15 UI annoyances

[Bertrand Meyer]

FrameMaker 2015, 13.00.333

1. I am saving in MIF 7.0. Any way to get rid of the pesky dialog that warns
me each time that I am losing information (I am not)?  It's driving me
crazy.
2. I unchecked "Auto backup on Save" in Preferences, but I still get my
folders polluted with silly x.auto.fm files. How can I get rid of them?

These issues did not arise with earlier versions. 

Thanks in advance,

-- Bertrand Meyer

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

Dear Julie,

Thank you very much, this looks exactly like what I need!

Come to think of it, when I was using FrameMaker on Unix, I would have
written a script using fmbatch to generate MIF, process the text using some
of the standard Unix utilities, and convert back to .fm format. On Windows
it's not as straightforward so your scripts will be very welcome.

Thanks a lot,

-- Bertrand Meyer

-Original Message-
From: Myers, Julie L [mailto:my...@iodp.tamu.edu] 
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 22:33
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Cc: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

I have a couple of ExtendScripts that might help. One adds a newlink to
specific paragraph formats and the other adds the gotolink. You would need
to customize them and possibly modify them in other ways, but it might be a
start. Let me know if you would like for me to send them to you. (I don't
know if we are allowed to send attachments here.)

Julie 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of framers-requ...@lists.frameusers.com
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 3:02 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Framers Digest, Vol 175, Issue 8

Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers@lists.frameusers.com To
subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers
-frameusers.com__;!!KwNVnqRv!UjthGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNy
RREzSCnJtG8nSbAeL0w$  You can reach the person managing the list at
framers-ow...@lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your Subject
line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs (Lin Sims)
   2. Re:  Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs (Steve Rickaby)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 08:45:52 -0400
From: Lin Sims 
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch,  "An email list for people using Adobe
FrameMaker software." 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are trying to
do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a specific paragraph
tag for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

Or you could use Glossary markers. Matt Sullivan has a good section
explaining how to set up Glossary Terms and Glossary Definitions (marker
types you'd have to create) in his FrameMaker Working with Content book (
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://techcommtools.com/books/__;!!KwNVnqRv!Uj
thGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNyRREzSCnJtG8lNxeP8Mw$ ). That
one is for 2017, but he's putting out one for 2020 soon.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 1:40 PM Bertrand Meyer 
wrote:

> This is a novice question. In fact I am not a novice as I have been 
> using FrameMaker extensively for many years, but I have not used 
> intra-document hyperlinks so far, jut  cross-references (lots and lots  of
them).
>
>
>
> What I want to do now is simple to state: have text of the form
>
>
>
> Blah blah this is some text and that is a pointer to 
> some other part of the text
>
>
>
> where pointer (using a specific character format, in this case causing
> underlining) is a hyperlink or equivalent so that in the generated PDF 
> clicking it will go to some designated target place in the text.
>
>
>
> I am used to cross-references, as in
>
>
>
> ... This was discussed in section 4.5, page 67, of the 
> previous chapter ...
>
>
>
> but they only make it possible to have a source that is a reference 
> format; as far as I know they do not make it possible to have as 
> source of the hyperlink an arbitrary word, such as "pointer" above.
>
>
>
> I also know how to create a hyperlink, putting a "gotolink XXX" 
> Hypertext marker under pointer (the source location) and another of 
> the form "newlink XXX" at the target location.
>
>
>
> But this is horrible because I need to invent a new label ("XXX") for 
> every single target, and insert "newlink XXX" at the corresponding 
> place. I have
> -- literally -- thousands such locations; inserting them would consume 
> several days of my life, spent in a silly way since there is no 
> conceptual need for these markers.
>
>
>
> (The text, by the way, is the revision of the Eiffel standard of which 
> the previous version is at 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ecma-international.org/publica
> tions/standards/Ecma-367.htm__;!!KwNVnqRv!UjthGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2
> g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNyRREzSCnJtG8nEG51xTQ$ . If you look up the t

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous 
version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is 
written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious effort by 
many people.) See 
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. Some 
words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced with a 
rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version, such words 
are underlined. For example, a sentence such as

This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or it 
might be an *unclassified* beast. 

(I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using 
asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses 
underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and 
"unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text.

Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined 
elements should be links to the corresponding definitions. (Otherwise, the 
reader has to run searches all the time.)

This kind of thing is needed for any normative text of that kind, which 
includes precise definitions.

In FrameMaker terms, all the definitions are in paragraphs of one specific type 
(format in FrameMaker terminology), so the obvious thing to do from the 
writer's perspective would be to be able to select the target from a list of 
paragraphs of that type, as with cross-references. But cross-references don't 
work since they impose a format based on the target, not the source.

-- BM

-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:55
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Can't you just write "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems (page 
xx)"?

On 27-Oct-20 12:27 PM, Bertrand Meyer wrote:
> Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets 
> being paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources: 
> I don't want them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the 
> FrameMaker sense, whose displayed text is deduced from the target 
> (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to be arbitrary text.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- BM
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
> To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe 
> FrameMaker software. 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
>> Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a 
>> cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use 
>> a reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking 
>> text, as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", 
>> where the underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the 
>> underline) is my own text but a link to some chosen place.
>>
>> Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a 
>> gotolink at the source and a newlink at the target, which is 
>> horrendously tedious if one has thousands such cases. The newlink is 
>> not conceptually necessary since all the targets are paragraphs so I 
>> should be able simply to choose from a paragraph list as with
> cross-references.
>
>  From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I 
> never needed to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you 
> are stymied by FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to 
> named styles, i.e. at the paragraph level, rather than to specific 
> runs of text such as a sentence. If there's a way to do this that 
> doesn't involve a double-link process, I'd be interested to hear of 
> it, even though I seldom use FrameMaker these days.
>
> --
> Baker Steve, aka Steve Rickaby BSc MBCS CITP AMBHI Tel : +44 1 736 
> 810575 Five times World Bread Awards winner:
> 2015 Silver, 2016 Silver, 2017 Bronze*2, 2019 Silver For more about 
> Real Bread, see <http://www.realbreadcampaign.org>
> For more about me, see <http://www.linkedin.com/in/steverickaby>
> For superficial waffle, see <https://www.facebook.com/steve.rickaby.9>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets being
paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources: I don't want
them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the FrameMaker sense, whose
displayed text is deduced from the target (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to
be arbitrary text.

Thanks,

-- BM

-Original Message-
From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe
FrameMaker software. 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

>Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a 
>cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use a 
>reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking text, 
>as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", where the 
>underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the underline) is 
>my own text but a link to some chosen place.
>
>Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a 
>gotolink at the source and a newlink at the target, which is 
>horrendously tedious if one has thousands such cases. The newlink is 
>not conceptually necessary since all the targets are paragraphs so I 
>should be able simply to choose from a paragraph list as with
cross-references.

>From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I never
needed to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you are stymied
by FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to named styles,
i.e. at the paragraph level, rather than to specific runs of text such as a
sentence. If there's a way to do this that doesn't involve a double-link
process, I'd be interested to hear of it, even though I seldom use
FrameMaker these days.

--
Baker Steve, aka Steve Rickaby BSc MBCS CITP AMBHI Tel : +44 1 736 810575
Five times World Bread Awards winner:
2015 Silver, 2016 Silver, 2017 Bronze*2, 2019 Silver For more about Real
Bread, see 
For more about me, see 
For superficial waffle, see 

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

Dear Steve and Lin,

 

Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a
cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use a
reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking text, as
in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", where the
underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the underline) is my
own text but a link to some chosen place.

 

Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a gotolink
at the source and a newlink at the target, which is horrendously tedious if
one has thousands such cases. The newlink is not conceptually necessary
since all the targets are paragraphs so I should be able simply to choose
from a paragraph list as with cross-references.

 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

-Original Message-
From: Framers
[mailto:framers-bounces+bertrand.meyer=inf.ethz...@lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 14:50
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

 

>I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are 

>trying to do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a 

>specific paragraph tag for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

 

I'm glad you posted this, Lin. I was about to do the same, but then my Inner
Voice said "Nah - you've been out of the loop too long: you're missing
something. Keep quiet." :-)

 

--

Steve

 

'I see you have a cat problem' 'I don't have a cat' 'That's your cat
problem'

___

 

This message is from the Framers mailing list

 

Send messages to  <mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com>
framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's homepage at
<http://www.frameusers.com> http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at
<http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/>
http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/

Subscribe and unsubscribe at
<http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com>
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com

Send administrative questions to  <mailto:listad...@frameusers.com>
listad...@frameusers.com

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

 that actually does not involve the text of the target paragraph (as 
reference formats usually do, e.g.  with <$paratext>) but just the character 
“@”.

 

I haven’t actually tried this solution but it should work. However it is not 
ideal because in this approach only the “@” is clickable (a hyperlink). The 
reader of my document has to understand that convention and click at exactly 
the right place. Besides, having those “@” all over the place pollutes the 
text. Still, I reserve the possibility of using this approach if everything 
else fails.

 

The crazy approach is different. It does require some manual work: for every 
“glossary” entry in a paragraph of type TT I will have to insert, above or 
below, a zombie paragraph, of a paragraph type that I will call ZMB for this 
discussion. The zombie paragraph contains only the word being defined. So the 
above glossary example will now contain

 

cat

cat: a kind of *beast* whose pictures some people have an urge to post on 
Facebook

 

with the first paragraph of type ZMB and the second one of type TT as above. 
Now every source mention will be a cross reference, to the ZMB paragraph (not 
the originally intended one, of type TT, appearing just below) with the format 
<$paratext>, i.e. it reproduces the paragraph text, in this case “cat”.

 

So this works, at least for the very specific purpose of my text, but I have 
polluted the glossary with lots of zombie paragraphs – one for each entry. 
Elementary, my dear Watson: I now define the ZMB paragraph type so that the 
corresponding paragraphs are invisible. The best (i.e most invisible) way I 
have found so far is: use White as the font color; use 0 points as line spacing 
for the paragraph, and use 0 point too for the space before and after each ZMB 
paragraph; and use the smallest possible font that FrameMaker will accept, 
which I found to be 2pt. (Any better suggestion?)

 

I also have an auxiliary paragraph type, say ZOMBIE-PREPARATION, with 
reasonable (black, big enough) font, which I can use for the future ZMB 
paragraphs when I type them, then change them to ZMB.

 

The net effect on the text is that there will be some invisible paragraphs here 
and there (in glossary entries), adding a very small amount of line spacing, 
but it should be hardly noticeable by the document’s reader, and I might even 
be able to remove it altogether by removing 2pt from the standard above or 
below paragraph spacing of type TT.

 

I still have to type in all the ZMB paragraphs with the glossary entries. But 
there are far fewer glossary entries than source mentions. Maybe a couple 
hundred glossary entries, and thousands of source mentions. For the source 
mentions, I can just use the beautiful UI mechanism of cross references: select 
the target file, select the paragraph type (ZMB), scroll to the right term 
(which will be easy since the text of a ZMB paragraphs is precisely the 
glossary term), select it.

 

(I still have a small problem with letter-case variants of the source mentions, 
for example if a sentence start

 

Cat is not what I would call this particular thing, it looks 
more like a dog to me.

 

Because of the initial upper-case “C” per the rules of written English I need 
two ZMB paragraphs in this case, one of “cat” and one for “Cat”. This also adds 
another 2pt of line spacing. However it is not such a frequent occurrence so I 
assume I can live with it in practice.)

 

If you are still with me at this point thanks (and admiration) for your 
patience. Why we have to indulge in such bizarre tricks is left as an exercise 
– we should just be able to create a hyperlink the way we create a 
cross-reference, by getting a list of paragraphs from a UI dialog. But since 
the facility is not there, at least the bizarre trick provides a way to proceed.

 

Thanks for all the comments received.

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

 

 

 

 

From: Lin Sims [mailto:ljsims...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 20:56
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Cc: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

 

He's already using markers. His issue is that there are thousands of them and 
he doesn't want to have to manually type everything out everytime he inserts a 
link to another location in the document. 

 

If I understood him correctly, what he wants is to be able to select which 
predefined target marker to go to from a drop-down list when inserting the 
marker to create the hypertext link instead of having to manually type it in 
each time he inserts the gotolink marker. This would have to be scripted. 
Neither the Hypertext Marker insert nor the general Marker Insert window 
provide a drop-down list for anything other than the type of marker or type of 
Hypertext command to make part of the marker. 

 

I suppose a brute force method would be to create the destination marker first

[Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

This is a novice question. In fact I am not a novice as I have been using
FrameMaker extensively for many years, but I have not used intra-document
hyperlinks so far, jut  cross-references (lots and lots  of them).

 

What I want to do now is simple to state: have text of the form

 

Blah blah this is some text and that is a pointer to some
other part of the text

 

where pointer (using a specific character format, in this case causing
underlining) is a hyperlink or equivalent so that in the generated PDF
clicking it will go to some designated target place in the text.

 

I am used to cross-references, as in

 

... This was discussed in section 4.5, page 67, of the
previous chapter ...

 

but they only make it possible to have a source that is a reference format;
as far as I know they do not make it possible to have as source of the
hyperlink an arbitrary word, such as "pointer" above.

 

I also know how to create a hyperlink, putting a "gotolink XXX" Hypertext
marker under pointer (the source location) and another of the form "newlink
XXX" at the target location.

 

But this is horrible because I need to invent a new label ("XXX") for every
single target, and insert "newlink XXX" at the corresponding place. I have
-- literally -- thousands such locations; inserting them would consume
several days of my life, spent in a silly way since there is no conceptual
need for these markers.

 

(The text, by the way, is the revision of the Eiffel standard of which the
previous version is at
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. If
you look up the text you will see that it has thousands of underlined
elements, e.g. unfolded form in the last bullet item on page 97. They
correspond to concepts defined formally elsewhere in the text. At the moment
one has to look them up in the index, or perform a search. They should be
hyperlinks! Hence the question.)

 

The reason it is pointless to have to insert "newlink XXX" all over the
place is that since the hyperlinks always go to tart paragraphs of specific
types ("formats"). (I fanatically use FrameMaker paragraph-typing
mechanisms.) I just want to link to a specific paragraph of a specific type,
choosing it from the automatically list, as I do with cross-references.  

 

Is there a way to do this?

 

I am using FrameMaker 2015, although I will soon update to the latest
version.

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

[Framers] License update

[Bertrand Meyer]

Dear Framers,

I am using FrameMaker 2015 and am planning to update too FrameMaker 2019 at the 
same time as moving to a new laptop. I would appreciate help with two questions:

1. I am not interested in a subscription, only in buying a license. I found no 
possibility on Adobe's site but one on CDW 
(https://www.cdw.com/product/adobe-framemaker-2019-release-license-1-user/5244308).
 Can anyone confirm that this source is suitable? The licensing is not clear 
from their site (I wrote to them for clarification), so if anyone has 
experience with them I will be grateful. The source I used back in 2015 thanks 
to a tip from this list, Insight 
(https://www.insight.com/en_US/shop/product/65292764AD01A00/Adobe/65292764AD01A00/AdobeFrameMaker(2019Release/)),
 currently says that the site is under maintenance.

2. I am not following this email list on a daily basis (I do use FrameMaker on 
a daily basis -- it has been my main writing tool since ca. 1998 --  but it 
does what I want and I know its quirks), so I apologize if everyone else knows 
the answer to my next question: is it a good idea to purchase the 2019 version 
now, or is there another expected update coming out soon?

Thanks in advance and best regards,

-- Bertrand Meyer
Last (FrameMaker-produced) book: Agile: The Good, the Hype and the Ugly, 
Springer, https://www.amazon.com/Agile-Good-Hype-Bertrand-Meyer/dp/3319051547

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

[Bertrand Meyer]

This is an old thread but here is a comment. I fundamentally rely on FrameMaker 
and would never "bash" it. On the other hand, right now at the end of a 
two-year book-writing process, with the camera-ready due on Monday, I got a 
crash this afternoon. Not the first -- in my experience, if I am working on a 
book a FrameMaker session does not last more than three or four days before it 
vanishes  --  but possibly the worst ever. The supposed recovery files were 
corrupted; just to restart from the backup to a stable state took almost two 
hours. I do back up obsessively (as I have been burned many times before), but 
still. And when you are in delicate fine-tuning, typo-fixing and final indexing 
mode, working over several chapters at once, going through every recent change 
to see which were kept and which were lost, is a nightmare. 

One might imagine that by this time they would have either fixed the crashes or 
devised a decent recovery mechanism.

There is still nothing that measures up to FrameMaker for writing books with a 
sophisticated structure, but if it did respect the integrity of customers' work 
that wouldn't hurt.

-- Bertrand Meyer

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
[mailto:framers-bounces+bertrand.meyer=inf.ethz...@lists.frameusers.com] On 
Behalf Of Shmuel Wolfson
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2021 12:00
To: Framers List 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Why so many of us feel the way we do about Adobe

I don't know why everyone likes bashing FrameMaker.

Is there anything else that:
• Is suitable for long books.
• Gives you PDF output as is appears while you are working (WYSIWYG).
• Can be converted to online help, (even if it requires buying an extra 
program).

FM happens to have online help conversion built-in, but I could live without 
that if that was another decent authoring tool that worked together with 
another decently priced conversion tool.

Word comes close to checking all those boxes, but has problems with large files 
and other issues.

Someone mention another page layout program recently, but I forgot what it was. 
Maybe it was Xara Page & Layout Designer. But can it do online help at all?

Please post if you know of another authoring tool that is excellent for PDFs 
and can be used for online help.

My biggest gripe with FM is the price, but you know what, you really don't need 
to buy every new version that comes out. Do you buy every new smartphone that 
comes out, or wait until you need a new phone? Anyone under 20 is excluded from 
answering that question :)

--
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
058-763-7133

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

[Framers] Separate printed file for each chapter (waiting to click considered harmful)

[Bertrand Meyer (SIT)]

I haven't for a long time used the "Print separate file for each chapter"
option for printing a book. I tried it again now but I have to wait for each
chapter to print and display in Acrobat, then click OK to approve the file
name for the next chapter (even though it's just .pdf in the
chosen directory).

 

This is utterly crazy! For a small book it took me a good 10 minutes of just
waiting and clicking, but my next book is 40+ chapters! There are better
things to do with one's life than waiting for the computer to condescend to
letting you click predictable modal dialogs.

 

There must be a "do this for me and tell me when you are done" option (as I
think there was in older versions) but I didn't find it. Any help?

 

Thanks,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] Separate printed file for each chapter (waiting to click considered harmful)

[Bertrand Meyer (SIT)]

Thanks. I don’t print to Postscript, why should I? I want PDF files.

 

I used to print Postscript files (back in the days when everyone was wearing a 
tie to work), then “distill” them to PDF (sounds like deliciously nostalgic 
terminology)… Should I still do that?

 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

From: winfried.r...@web.de  
Sent: Wednesday, 7 September, 2022 11:37
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Separate printed file for each chapter (waiting to click 
considered harmful)

 

Hi Bertrand,

 

I do this regularly, and it works very well.

Could it be that you had not activated to print to a Postscript file?

 

Best regards

 

Winfried 

 

 

Am 07.09.2022 10:23 schrieb "Bertrand Meyer (SIT)" mailto:bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch> >:

I haven't for a long time used the "Print separate file for each chapter" 
option for printing a book. I tried it again now but I have to wait for each 
chapter to print and display in Acrobat, then click OK to approve the file 
name for the next chapter (even though it's just .pdf in the 
chosen directory). 



This is utterly crazy! For a small book it took me a good 10 minutes of just 
waiting and clicking, but my next book is 40+ chapters! There are better 
things to do with one's life than waiting for the computer to condescend to 
letting you click predictable modal dialogs. 



There must be a "do this for me and tell me when you are done" option (as I 
think there was in older versions) but I didn't find it. Any help? 



Thanks, 



-- Bertrand Meyer

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] Separate printed file for each chapter (waiting to click considered harmful)

[Bertrand Meyer (SIT)]

Thanks… but I looked up “watched folders” and only found complaints that the 
feature used to be in Distiller ages ago and is not available in Acrobat. I 
must be looking in the wrong place or under the wrong name. I am using Acrobat 
XI Pro.

 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

From: winfried.r...@web.de  
Sent: Wednesday, 7 September, 2022 12:20
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch
Cc: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 
; me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: RE: [Framers] Separate printed file for each chapter (waiting to click 
considered harmful)

 

Hi Bertrand,

 

You have to print to Postscript files and then use a watched folder to convert 
all in one go to PDF via Acrobat.

 

Best regards

 

Winfried 

 

 

Am 07.09.2022 11:52 schrieb "Bertrand Meyer (SIT)" mailto:bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch> >:

Thanks. I don’t print to Postscript, why should I? I want PDF files.

 

I used to print Postscript files (back in the days when everyone was wearing a 
tie to work), then “distill” them to PDF (sounds like deliciously nostalgic 
terminology)… Should I still do that?

 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

From: winfried.r...@web.de <mailto:winfried.r...@web.de>  mailto:winfried.r...@web.de> > 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 September, 2022 11:37
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch <mailto:bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch> ; An email 
list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> >
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch <mailto:me...@inf.ethz.ch> 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Separate printed file for each chapter (waiting to click 
considered harmful)

 

Hi Bertrand,

 

I do this regularly, and it works very well.

Could it be that you had not activated to print to a Postscript file?

 

Best regards

 

Winfried 

 

 

Am 07.09.2022 10:23 schrieb "Bertrand Meyer (SIT)" mailto:bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch> >:

I haven't for a long time used the "Print separate file for each chapter" 
option for printing a book. I tried it again now but I have to wait for each 
chapter to print and display in Acrobat, then click OK to approve the file 
name for the next chapter (even though it's just .pdf in the 
chosen directory). 



This is utterly crazy! For a small book it took me a good 10 minutes of just 
waiting and clicking, but my next book is 40+ chapters! There are better 
things to do with one's life than waiting for the computer to condescend to 
letting you click predictable modal dialogs. 



There must be a "do this for me and tell me when you are done" option (as I 
think there was in older versions) but I didn't find it. Any help? 



Thanks, 



-- Bertrand Meyer

 

___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

[Framers] FrameMaker crashes

[Bertrand Meyer (SIT)]

I have the very latest version of FrameMaker (Windows) and it still, like
earlier versions, freezes after a few days of use, unpredictably, with a
botched-up display (see example below) and no responsiveness. I have to kill
the process with the Task Manager, get rid of *.lck files, get rid of the
*auto files (or rename them, saving the originals just in case into another
directory), restart the whole thing, check  manually that the chapters are
in the right state - all tedious for a 40-chapter book.

 

It's really bizarre that after all these years, in a product with the Adobe
label, there are still such crashes.

 

Does anyone know any way to present them from happening? I guess exiting
after a few days of use and restarting is prudent (if unpleasant in 2022),
is there a better way?

 

Thanks,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 



 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.png
Type: image/png
Size: 167530 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20221003/1c2142a4/attachment.png>
___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] FrameMaker crashes

[Bertrand Meyer (SIT)]

> Does anyone know any way to present them from happening?

 

Sorry, I obviously meant "prevent".

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

From: Bertrand Meyer (SIT)  
Sent: Monday, 3 October, 2022 14:16
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.'

Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: FrameMaker crashes

 

I have the very latest version of FrameMaker (Windows) and it still, like
earlier versions, freezes after a few days of use, unpredictably, with a
botched-up display (see example below) and no responsiveness. I have to kill
the process with the Task Manager, get rid of *.lck files, get rid of the
*auto files (or rename them, saving the originals just in case into another
directory), restart the whole thing, check  manually that the chapters are
in the right state - all tedious for a 40-chapter book.

 

It's really bizarre that after all these years, in a product with the Adobe
label, there are still such crashes.

 

Does anyone know any way to present them from happening? I guess exiting
after a few days of use and restarting is prudent (if unpleasant in 2022),
is there a better way?

 

Thanks,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 



 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.png
Type: image/png
Size: 184138 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20221003/1bd6ad78/attachment.png>
___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com

Re: [Framers] FrameMaker crashes

[Bertrand Meyer (SIT)]

Needless to say I have more than adequate resources (recent Intel processor, 32 
GB of RAM, always up to date with Windows updates etc.)

 

Prior to the current release I used FrameMaker 2019, and prior to that 
FrameMaker 2015. They both had the same behavior.

 

Before that I used the Windows version 7.x for many years, approximatively 
2002-2015  -- it was quite usable, although it did crash occasionally (with 
real crashes, not the kind of freezing I am getting now).

 

And before that I used FrameMaker on Sun workstations, going back to 1993 (no 
typo). It worked quite well. It clearly had a memory leak problem which meant 
that it had to be restarted once in a while.

 

But we are in 2022.

 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

From: Simon BUCH  
Sent: Monday, 3 October, 2022 15:08
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] FrameMaker crashes

 

Hello,

I have observed the same behaviour at my customer's offices since at least 
FrameMaker 14.   They have some high end HP workstations with heaps of RAM, 
very large displays [4K+], with fast graphic cards.

What happens is that the display of the FrameMaker document will become 
corrupted with textual content being displayed in the Windows’ System Bold font 
- as shown below:



Additionally, the FrameMaker menus will go blank, and attempts to access the 
menus will yield black rectangle shapes, and the mouse pointer will turn in to 
the Windows spinning blue wheel.   This leads me to think it's a bug with the 
Windows GDI bug.

I have not observed the behaviour on any of my FrameMaker installations on my 
local workstations which meet the Adobe FrameMaker system requirements.

If I am dealing with a large number of documents, I tend to get in to a habit 
of exiting all applications, making timed backups of working version files 
[maybe as a ZIP archive file] - often with a note indicating the last completed 
task.  Then restarting Windows.   


/// Simon BUCH 




On 03/10/2022 13:16, Bertrand Meyer (SIT) wrote:

I have the very latest version of FrameMaker (Windows) and it still, like
earlier versions, freezes after a few days of use, unpredictably, with a
botched-up display (see example below) and no responsiveness. I have to kill
the process with the Task Manager, get rid of *.lck files, get rid of the
*auto files (or rename them, saving the originals just in case into another
directory), restart the whole thing, check  manually that the chapters are
in the right state - all tedious for a 40-chapter book.
 
 
 
It's really bizarre that after all these years, in a product with the Adobe
label, there are still such crashes.
 
 
 
Does anyone know any way to present them from happening? I guess exiting
after a few days of use and restarting is prudent (if unpleasant in 2022),
is there a better way?
 
 
 
Thanks,
 
 
 
-- Bertrand Meyer
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
With best regards,
 
 
 
-- Bertrand Meyer
 
 
 
-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.png
Type: image/png
Size: 167530 bytes
Desc: not available
URL:  
<http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20221003/1c2142a4/attachment.png>
 
<http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20221003/1c2142a4/attachment.png>
___
 
This message is from the Framers mailing list
 
Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com 
<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com> 
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com 
<mailto:listad...@frameusers.com> 

-- next part --
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.png
Type: image/png
Size: 25987 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: 
<http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers-frameusers.com/attachments/20221003/90f9bfbf/attachment.png>
___

This message is from the Framers mailing list

Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
Archives located at http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com