Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Hi all, I heard from our Kodak rep, and I don't really have anything super helpful to add. I forwarded her Alex's initial email about upcoming discontinuations. She said the products to be discontinued weren't at all finalized, but that she did expect to see another discontinuation of some kind issued by the end of the year. She said she was sad to see the list in Alex's email, because it was the first she'd heard of any specific products mentioned, and whether or not that info ends up being correct is uncertain, but she hoped not. But I wouldn't be too encouraged, just in case. She also mentioned that it's still possible to place an order for 7363 hicon as of today, though I don't know how much longer that'll be the case. She said there've been a lot of orders for it, which was unexpected good news for them, and partly why they've decided to fill all the orders coming in now as best as possible. More info as I get it... Mark On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 5:53 AM, Alex Balkam wrote: > Hey team Frameworks, > > I just thought I would share news that I received from Kodak... not sure > if the list already knew about this and it is repetition but I felt it > warranted sharing. > > Probably in December Kodak will be announcing the discontinuation of a > number of motion picture film products. The products I know about are: > > *7207 & 7203* 100’ > *Tri-X* 400’ > *5222* 1000’ > *7222* 100’ 400’ > > There may be more than I am aware of. This is in addition to the sad news > about Ektachrome and Hi Con. > > It may be time for Frameworks to consider contacting (or choosing a > Frameworks representative to contact) the higher ups at Kodak to express > the importance that the less industrial, less Hollywood products really > need to be maintained during this challenging time in order that we can > continue to expose young filmmakers and the public to the merits and beauty > of film. All of us on this list help Kodak in various ways by creating our > works on their film stock, and this in turn helps to ensure films presence > moving forward in the motion picture world - whether it be workshops with > kids who will become the filmmakers of the future, experimental cinema or > the fine arts/gallery settings, our efforts help Kodak and we need to make > sure we are pleading our case that they maintain the products we use. > Mainly, I am speaking about Tri-X in 100' 16mm and S8... I was told they > originally were going to discontinue the 100' loads of Tri-X 16mm. > Thankfully, enough people (perhaps film schools and educators) sent letters > to Kodak complaining that this would essentially hinder there ability to > promote film and inspire new generations to appreciate it, so Kodak is > continuing its sale for now. > > Perhaps we need a concerted effort from Frameworks to speak to Kodak > about the merits of maintaining introductory, educational and smaller gauge > film products during this time. I am thinking there must be some way to > make them realize that the only way we will have Tarantinos lobbying major > production companies to guarantee Kodak contracts in the future is to be > able to show the next generation what it means to work on film. > > Thanks! > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
I heard that Ilford had gotten rid of any coating machines that could do rolls longer than 100 feet — but that may not be correct. Their cine stocks were notorious for shedding a lot in the camera. On Aug 31, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Heikki Repo wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:09 AM, wrote: > > > Ilford are reportedly thinking of re-starting: they still have all the > > equipment to produce film. They made a range of beautiful B&W negs, broadly > > superior to anything Kodak has produced. > > > > >I thought Ilford was a bit lower contrast, esp compared to Kodak, but I > >never shot more than a few rolls of the stuff. Would be > >nice to have more options... did you happen to hear of a timeline for when > >such a re-birth might happen? > > >Thanks, > >Alain > > Ilford Harman ( http://www.ilfordphoto.com/home.asp ) hasn't even stopped > manufacturing bw film. > However, their current line of films is only available for still photography. > > > Certainly interesting if they are thinking about returning to that market. > > One could ask about it on APUG, Simon R Galley from Ilford is very active > representative there: > http://www.apug.org/forums/forum246/ > > > Regards > Heikki > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jean-Louis Seguin > > To: Experimental Film Discussion List > > Sent: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 2:08 > > Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced > > in December > > > > Current manufacturers > > (Other than Kodak): > > > > Agfa > > Orwo > > Adox > > Kahl > > > > What format do you need? > > B&W color, negative or reversal? > > > > Jean-Louis > > > > Sent from my iPod > > > > > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Fred Smith wrote: > > > > > > I'll have to admit, I know of no other film manufacturer other than > > Kodak, probably because they have dominated the US market for years. Any > > recomendation on how to locate the others for those who are like me? > > > > > >> On 8/30/2014 12:53 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: > > >> > > >> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. > > >> > > >> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely > > >> ignore > > the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak > > that > > produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention > > this to > > them. > > >> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source > > >> at > > the moment. For everything else, there are options out there > > > ___ > > > FrameWorks mailing list > > > FrameWorks at jonasmekasfilms.com > > > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > ___ > > FrameWorks mailing listFrameWorks at > > jonasmekasfilms.comhttps://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > > > > > ___ > > FrameWorks mailing list > > FrameWorks at jonasmekasfilms.com > > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > > > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks Jeff Kreines Kinetta j...@kinetta.com kinetta.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
I’ve been lamenting the loss of these stocks along with the rest of you. But I also was thinking of the bigger historical context of this current crisis, and that gave me some peace of mind. I know that when I arrived at the University of Florida in 2000, a colleague explained that the reason they’d stopped shooting film was that “it’s so hard to get film stock now.” My response: 800.621.3456. Seemed easy to me. But he showed me an info sheet from Buffalo in the 1970s, which listed the 7 or 8 places in town you could go to pick up a roll of motion picture film. For him (and his generation), the loss of local vendors was a giant crisis, one big enough to drive some to abandon film altogether. It seems to me we’re in a similar moment, where those of us who’ve relied on Kodak as our one-stop shop feel like we’re at a critical juncture, but maybe it’s really not that bad after all. This thread has been reassuring in pointing to all the ways that we’ll still be able to keep going after the inevitable decline of Kodak. Maybe it won’t be quite as convenient, maybe we’ll pay a few bucks more, but it sounds like we’ll continue to have plenty of tools at our disposal, including maybe some new ones that will be wonderful in ways we haven’t yet discovered. In solidarity, R. p.s. Remember how cheap film used to be before the Hunt Brothers tried to corner the silver market? I don’t either. THE GOOD OL’ DAYS ARE RIGHT NOW. On Aug 31, 2014, at 11:24 AM, Mike Morris mailto:m_alex_mor...@yahoo.com>> wrote: When talking to kodaks representative I asked about ordering some 7302 for a class, since we won't be able to know when the back order of 7363 will come in. Evidently it has been a stock that was kept on hand and ordered in 4000 ft cans, but will now be made to order, same as 3378, which means 6x4000, or 24000 ft minimum purchase. I don't know if anyone else is already doing so, but I'm tempted to try to put some money down, spool those stocks down, then sell them off for what 400' or 100' might have cost. Would people be interested in this, and does this seem like a viable plan? I feel like there are some labs that might do this already, but maybe what kodak needs is a middle man? Message: 11 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 11:22:13 -0700 From: 40 Frames mailto:i...@40frames.org>> To: Experimental Film Discussion List mailto:frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December Message-ID: mailto:caauwommdoze+iifmu1tftps77cn09m3p+tlfd2lobwv1eld...@mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin mailto:bolext...@gmail.com>> wrote: Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them. True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of stocks. I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run through one of my cameras without needing to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO in another camera as well. I've had few issues like this with Kodak BW stocks. Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it lower in cost than ORWO. I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs are printing to ORWO's BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and 3302 may be put on the chopping block soon. Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in manufacturing their stocks. Alain Sent from my iPhone ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com<mailto:FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
The daylight spool issue is important. I always try to remember to ask the lab to return them otherwise they keep them and sell them. Eventually they wear and/or bend, but someone must still be making them. Do Kodak make their own.? Sent from my Sony Xperia™ smartphone Chris Kennedy wrote >The past couple years I've actually been heartened by the other film >manufacturing companies out there, as we've been working to stock LIFT's store >with options. Even while kodak's offerings are diminishing, there have been a >lot of replacement options (many which have been hiding in plain sight). Adox, >Agfa (smaller quantities can be ordered through wittner), orwo, foma. >Ferrania will be making announcements in mid September, so I look forward to >hearing what they have come up with. Although, they need to get in production >soon to take advantage of kodak's collapsing of stocks. > >The worry, of course, is that certain elements of lab printing and general >peripheries (daylight spools, super 8 cartridges) that are largely supported >by the volume of kodak's production will start to disappear. Wittner has >stated that they have enough super 8 cartridges to last quite a few years, but >we're still looking for a good stock of daylight spools. > >And of course, what will labs do in the next couple years? > >Best >Chris > > >___ >FrameWorks mailing list >FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com >https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:09 AM, wrote: > Ilford are reportedly thinking of re-starting: they still have all the > equipment to produce film. They made a range of beautiful B&W negs, broadly > superior to anything Kodak has produced. > I thought Ilford was a bit lower contrast, esp compared to Kodak, but I never shot more than a few rolls of the stuff. Would be nice to have more options... did you happen to hear of a timeline for when such a re-birth might happen? Thanks, Alain > > > > -Original Message- > From: Jean-Louis Seguin > To: Experimental Film Discussion List > Sent: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 2:08 > Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced > in December > > Current manufacturers > (Other than Kodak): > > Agfa > Orwo > Adox > Kahl > > What format do you need? > B&W color, negative or reversal? > > Jean-Louis > > Sent from my iPod > > > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Fred Smith wrote: > > > > I'll have to admit, I know of no other film manufacturer other than > Kodak, probably because they have dominated the US market for years. Any > recomendation on how to locate the others for those who are like me? > > > >> On 8/30/2014 12:53 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: > >> > >> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. > >> > >> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely > >> ignore > the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that > produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this > to > them. > >> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at > the moment. For everything else, there are options out there > > ___ > > FrameWorks mailing list > > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > ___ > FrameWorks mailing > listFrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.comhttps://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > -- 40 FRAMES Alain LeTourneau Pam Minty 40 FRAMES 5232 North Williams Avenue Portland, Oregon 97217 USA +1 503 231 6548 www.40frames.org www.16mmdirectory.org www.emptyquarterfilm.org ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
When talking to kodaks representative I asked about ordering some 7302 for a class, since we won't be able to know when the back order of 7363 will come in. Evidently it has been a stock that was kept on hand and ordered in 4000 ft cans, but will now be made to order, same as 3378, which means 6x4000, or 24000 ft minimum purchase. I don't know if anyone else is already doing so, but I'm tempted to try to put some money down, spool those stocks down, then sell them off for what 400' or 100' might have cost. Would people be interested in this, and does this seem like a viable plan? I feel like there are some labs that might do this already, but maybe what kodak needs is a middle man? Message: 11 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 11:22:13 -0700 From: 40 Frames To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: > > Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. > > I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely > ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from > Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I > mention this to them. > True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at > the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of stocks. I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run through one of my cameras without needing to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO in another camera as well. I've had few issues like this with Kodak BW stocks. Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it lower in cost than ORWO. I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs are printing to ORWO's BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and 3302 may be put on the chopping block soon. Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in manufacturing their stocks. Alain Sent from my iPhone___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
We're pretty much lost the ability to make magstriped prints. We have a long way to go before we lose the ability to make conventional optical prints, although if all four available sound recording films go away the quality of using another lab intermediate film in the sound camera will be a bit poorer. As long as we can make prints, somebody will be able to electroprint one-off tracks. These sound pretty dreadful, but they were very popular in the seventies when only a couple prints would be struck on a 16mm production. --scott ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
The past couple years I've actually been heartened by the other film manufacturing companies out there, as we've been working to stock LIFT's store with options. Even while kodak's offerings are diminishing, there have been a lot of replacement options (many which have been hiding in plain sight). Adox, Agfa (smaller quantities can be ordered through wittner), orwo, foma. Ferrania will be making announcements in mid September, so I look forward to hearing what they have come up with. Although, they need to get in production soon to take advantage of kodak's collapsing of stocks. The worry, of course, is that certain elements of lab printing and general peripheries (daylight spools, super 8 cartridges) that are largely supported by the volume of kodak's production will start to disappear. Wittner has stated that they have enough super 8 cartridges to last quite a few years, but we're still looking for a good stock of daylight spools. And of course, what will labs do in the next couple years? Best Chris ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Oh, yeah, and importantly, soundtracks... How close are we to loosing the ability to make those? C ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Thank you. As for the format, I'm still researching. On 8/30/2014 9:08 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: Current manufacturers (Other than Kodak): Agfa Orwo Adox Kahl What format do you need? B&W color, negative or reversal? Jean-Louis Sent from my iPod On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Fred Smith wrote: I'll have to admit, I know of no other film manufacturer other than Kodak, probably because they have dominated the US market for years. Any recomendation on how to locate the others for those who are like me? On 8/30/2014 12:53 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them. True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Ilford are reportedly thinking of re-starting: they still have all the equipment to produce film. They made a range of beautiful B&W negs, broadly superior to anything Kodak has produced. Nicky. -Original Message- From: Jean-Louis Seguin To: Experimental Film Discussion List Sent: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 2:08 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December Current manufacturers (Other than Kodak): Agfa Orwo Adox Kahl What format do you need? B&W color, negative or reversal? Jean-Louis Sent from my iPod > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Fred Smith wrote: > > I'll have to admit, I know of no other film manufacturer other than Kodak, probably because they have dominated the US market for years. Any recomendation on how to locate the others for those who are like me? > >> On 8/30/2014 12:53 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: >> >> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. >> >> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely >> ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them. >> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Agfa only really want to supply in very large quantities, ie 105 4000' cans at a time, though they can be persuaded to sell fewer, IF you can contact them, which is not straighforward. ST8 has a slightly bluish base, but it's a nice stock, about 6asa, Nicky. -Original Message- From: Scott Dorsey To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 22:02 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December Well, if 3378 goes away, there is always the Agfa ST-8 replacement. But I can see 3378 disappearing as projection prints become less and less in demand, and I can see an age where electroprinting returns. --scott ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Their website is wonderful. Beautiful factory. They claim they'll be manufacturing in all movie formats and 35mm slides etc, Nicky. -Original Message- From: Francisco Torres To: Experimental Film Discussion List Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:57 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December forza ferrania! http://www.filmferrania.it/ 2014-08-30 14:50 GMT-04:00 : When I was a student in the mid 1970s, Ferrania used to make a good colour reversal film and five bath processing kit. This was in the days, now mostly long gone, when people did things; knitting, sewing, repairing, developing etc. The colour was beautiful: soft and subtle, but hard to control in processing. Amazing they're still around, Nicky. -Original Message- From: 40 Frames To: Experimental Film Discussion List Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:22 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them. True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of stocks. I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run through one of my cameras without needing to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO in another camera as well. I've had few issues like this with Kodak BW stocks. Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it lower in cost than ORWO. I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs are printing to ORWO's BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and 3302 may be put on the chopping block soon. Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in manufacturing their stocks. Alain On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote: I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, I would be most grateful! edo On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin wrote: Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of these devoted manufacturers... All best, Pablo. On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to Tri-X. I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. Jean-Louis ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks -- 40 FRAMES Alain LeTourneau Pam Minty 40 FRAMES 5232 North Williams Avenue Portland, Oregon 97217 USA +1 503 231 6548 www.40frames.org www.16mmdirectory.org www.emptyquarterfilm.org __
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Edo, My understanding is all the recent discontinuations happen because the stock is expiring in the warehouse. So Kodak tightens up its product line by dropping the money losers. Of course with less stocks to choose from, film because less desirable to shoot. I imagine that the last stocks left standing will be 200T and 500T colour negative, which are the most popular with Hollywood. As David said in excellent detail, Kodak doesn't care about small time customers. They are only interested in mass market sales. They are still cheaper (especially in N.A.) but anyone interested in shooting film should put their support behind the smaller manufacturers. This gutting of B&W stocks might make Orwo more viable in the long term. Much in the same way when Kodak dropped their B&W papers they allow Ilford to fill the void and become viable again. I'm surprised that 3302 and 3378 weren't discontinued with the B&W intermediate stocks of this go round. John On Saturday, August 30, 2014 9:21:49 AM, Edward Choi wrote: I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, I would be most grateful!___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
The LIFT Store in Toronto carries a bunch: http://lift.ca/equipment/store On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: > Current manufacturers > (Other than Kodak): > > Agfa > Orwo > Adox > Kahl > > What format do you need? > B&W color, negative or reversal? > > Jean-Louis > > Sent from my iPod > > > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Fred Smith wrote: > > > > I'll have to admit, I know of no other film manufacturer other > than Kodak, probably because they have dominated the US market for years. > Any recomendation on how to locate the others for those who are like me? > > > >> On 8/30/2014 12:53 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: > >> > >> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. > >> > >> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely > ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from > Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I > mention this to them. > >> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source > at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there > > ___ > > FrameWorks mailing list > > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > -- ekrem serdar austin, tx ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Current manufacturers (Other than Kodak): Agfa Orwo Adox Kahl What format do you need? B&W color, negative or reversal? Jean-Louis Sent from my iPod > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Fred Smith wrote: > > I'll have to admit, I know of no other film manufacturer other than > Kodak, probably because they have dominated the US market for years. Any > recomendation on how to locate the others for those who are like me? > >> On 8/30/2014 12:53 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: >> >> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. >> >> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely >> ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from >> Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I >> mention this to them. >> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at >> the moment. For everything else, there are options out there > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
I'll have to admit, I know of no other film manufacturer other than Kodak, probably because they have dominated the US market for years. Any recomendation on how to locate the others for those who are like me? On 8/30/2014 12:53 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them. True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Alex Balkam wrote: > It may be time for Frameworks to consider contacting the higher ups at Kodak > to express the importance that the less industrial, less Hollywood products > really need to be maintained during this challenging time in order that we > can continue to expose young filmmakers and the public to the merits and > beauty of film. Been there. Did that. Pleaded, cajoled, begged John Mason, former higher-up in Kodak's Ed division (now retired) that they continue making tungsten color reversal so schools with non-studio-style programs (and budgets) could still teach photo-chemical filmmaking in color. I told them they were driving us little-folk into digital. Deaf ears. All they really cared about were big schools that bought lots of stock and fed students into the industry as camera crew. Their position was: 'You teach basic cinematography in B&W, and anyone doing an advanced project will have the time and resources for color negative.' > I am thinking there must be some way to make them realize that the only way > we will have Tarantinos lobbying major production companies to guarantee > Kodak contracts in the future is to be able to show the next generation what > it means to work on film. They know that. You have to understand Kodak was a giant industrial corporation that had no economic path to shrinkage, and is now is capitalist hospice, waiting out its last days. All they're trying to do now is slow the bleeding, and save as much stock value as they can for the next quarterly report. Even if someone in the higher-ups still plans to be around for the next generation of output by major production companies (and that's doubtful), they're not in a position to 'maintain less Hollywood products,' plan for the future, or do anything but maximize profits from the Cinema Division right now as a bandaid on the larger corporate hemorrhage. Kodak used to be a big sponsor of UFVA, throwing a big Banquet at the conference each year, and bringing in a major personage from ASC for a featured evening talk, e.g. Vilmos Zsigmond, Laszlo Kovacs... (Their concept of 'filmmaking education' beginning and ending with cinematography for narrative film. If any of the many Ed. reps who used to go to UFVA even knew who, say, Al Maysles or Jem Cohen were, they didn't give a poop.) Kodak even hosted the conference one year at their corporate HQ in Rochester, in the fancy R&D building they had put up maybe a decade or two earlier. Most of the facility had been vacated, and the place already smelled of death. That was 2001. It was either around that time or in the next couple years (memory fails me) that they made their Big Move to "show the next generation what it means to work on film". This was the introduction of the exact B&W stocks they are now discontinuing or making unavailable in 100' loads (read 'phasing out'). The old Plus-X/Tri-X processing was considered too toxic, and they had to entirely reformulate the stocks for new chemistry. This cost them a lot of time and money, and it was all spearheaded by the Ed. Division. The read-between-the-lines message was: 'We don't make enough money on this to justify the R&D economically, and if it was up to the bean-counters corporate would be dropping all of this stuff, but we (Ed. div.) went in and fought for you (teachers), and convinced them that profit-or-not, we need new B&W stocks so the academies can still teach cinematography at a reasonable cost.' A few years later, the Ed. Division had shrunk to a fraction of it's former size, Kodak was no longer sponsoring UFVA as before, and the sumptuous Kodak Banquets and prestige ASC talks had been replaced by crackers-and-chesse receptions and bozo editing talks sponsored by Avid. By the last time I taught my photochemical filmmaking class in '09, I was spooling 100D off 400' cores onto 100' daylight reels so the students who could afford color stock could get something into our clockwork cameras. When I'd found out Kodak had discontinued the 100' loads of 100D, I had just shaken my head. What else was I to expect after 10 years of watching the ship sink, but another nail in the non-Hollywood-photochemical-film-education coffin? In conclusion, if non-Hollywood makers and educators are going to organize around the preservation of reasonable-cost 16mm stock, I think it would be wise to aim those efforts beyond Kodak. Try to funnel as much $$ as possible to the manufacturers that have the best prospects of staying in business the longest, try to make it in their interest to expand distribution in North America, and offer student discounts. Lobby them for the latter, perhaps by gathering commitments from schools to order X amount of stock if a discount becomes available. Explain to them that when Kodak goes under, the students aren't going to have the option of paying more for un-discounted stock, and they'll almost all just go digital. Look at the developm
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
I wrote to the LA Kodak rep (who has always been very helpful) to get her response about the discontinuations. Will pass it along when I hear anything! Mark T > On Aug 30, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote: > > Well, if 3378 goes away, there is always the Agfa ST-8 replacement. > > But I can see 3378 disappearing as projection prints become less and less > in demand, and I can see an age where electroprinting returns. > --scott > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Well, if 3378 goes away, there is always the Agfa ST-8 replacement. But I can see 3378 disappearing as projection prints become less and less in demand, and I can see an age where electroprinting returns. --scott ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Ekrem Serdar wrote: > Ferrania's got a survey up if you want to chime in: > http://www.filmferrania.it/survey/ > > I wonder how long 3378e will be around... > My thoughts exactly... maybe Toscano has word on this?? Alain > > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Francisco Torres > wrote: > >> forza ferrania! >> >> http://www.filmferrania.it/ >> >> >> 2014-08-30 14:50 GMT-04:00 : >> >> When I was a student in the mid 1970s, Ferrania used to make a good >>> colour reversal film and five bath processing kit. This was in the days, >>> now mostly long gone, when people did things; knitting, sewing, repairing, >>> developing etc. The colour was beautiful: soft and subtle, but hard to >>> control in processing. Amazing they're still around, >>> >>> Nicky. >>> >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: 40 Frames >>> To: Experimental Film Discussion List >>> Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:22 >>> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, >>> Announced in December >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. >>>> >>>> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many >>>> completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the >>>> world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are >>>> truly amazed when I mention this to them. >>>> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source >>>> at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of >>> stocks. >>> >>> I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run >>> through one of my cameras without needing >>> to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO >>> in another camera as well. I've had few issues >>> like this with Kodak BW stocks. >>> >>> Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it >>> lower in cost than ORWO. >>> >>> I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) >>> processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are >>> printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs >>> are printing to ORWO's >>> BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and >>> 3302 may be put on the chopping block soon. >>> >>> Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of >>> color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and >>> who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. >>> >>> I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and >>> Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level >>> of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but >>> it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in >>> manufacturing their stocks. >>> >>> Alain >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in >>>> 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're >>>> continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger >>>> quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing >>>> chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, >>>> I would be most grateful! >>>> >>>> edo >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that >>>>> implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog >>>>> filmmaking" is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more >>>>> complicated than that. >>>>> >>>>> Would hate to be mis
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
On 2014-08-30, at 2:05 PM, Roger Wilson wrote: > Hi Jean-Louis, > > I would be interested in hearing more about these other options for b&w. I > know of Orwo but I find it hard to obtain their stocks here in Canada unless > you know of somewhere other then LIFT in Toronto? LIFT carries a few of there > stocks but not all of them. > > > > Roger D. Wilson Hi Roger, http://www.orwona.com/ The site says they're out of UN54 but the N74 negative is listed as in stock. Cheers, Jean-Louis ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Ferrania's got a survey up if you want to chime in: http://www.filmferrania.it/survey/ I wonder how long 3378e will be around... On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 1:57 PM, Francisco Torres wrote: > forza ferrania! > > http://www.filmferrania.it/ > > > 2014-08-30 14:50 GMT-04:00 : > > When I was a student in the mid 1970s, Ferrania used to make a good >> colour reversal film and five bath processing kit. This was in the days, >> now mostly long gone, when people did things; knitting, sewing, repairing, >> developing etc. The colour was beautiful: soft and subtle, but hard to >> control in processing. Amazing they're still around, >> >> Nicky. >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: 40 Frames >> To: Experimental Film Discussion List >> Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:22 >> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced >> in December >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. >>> >>> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely >>> ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from >>> Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I >>> mention this to them. >>> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source >>> at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. >>> >>> >> >> It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of >> stocks. >> >> I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run >> through one of my cameras without needing >> to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO >> in another camera as well. I've had few issues >> like this with Kodak BW stocks. >> >> Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it >> lower in cost than ORWO. >> >> I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) >> processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are >> printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs >> are printing to ORWO's >> BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and 3302 >> may be put on the chopping block soon. >> >> Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of >> color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and >> who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. >> >> I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and >> Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level >> of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but >> it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in >> manufacturing their stocks. >> >> Alain >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote: >>> >>> I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in >>> 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're >>> continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger >>> quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing >>> chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, >>> I would be most grateful! >>> >>> edo >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that >>>> implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog >>>> filmmaking" is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more >>>> complicated than that. >>>> >>>> Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here >>>> but the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms >>>> will start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to >>>> mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of >>>> these devoted manufacturers... >>>> >>>> All best, >>>> Pablo. >>>> >>>> >>>>On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin &
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
forza ferrania! http://www.filmferrania.it/ 2014-08-30 14:50 GMT-04:00 : > When I was a student in the mid 1970s, Ferrania used to make a good > colour reversal film and five bath processing kit. This was in the days, > now mostly long gone, when people did things; knitting, sewing, repairing, > developing etc. The colour was beautiful: soft and subtle, but hard to > control in processing. Amazing they're still around, > > Nicky. > > > > -Original Message- > From: 40 Frames > To: Experimental Film Discussion List > Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:22 > Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced > in December > > > > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin > wrote: > >> >> Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. >> >> I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely >> ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from >> Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I >> mention this to them. >> True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source >> at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. >> >> > > It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of > stocks. > > I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run > through one of my cameras without needing > to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO in > another camera as well. I've had few issues > like this with Kodak BW stocks. > > Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it > lower in cost than ORWO. > > I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) > processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are > printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs > are printing to ORWO's > BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and 3302 > may be put on the chopping block soon. > > Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of > color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and > who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. > > I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and > Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level > of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but > it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in > manufacturing their stocks. > > Alain > > > > > >> >> On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote: >> >> I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in >> 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're >> continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger >> quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing >> chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, >> I would be most grateful! >> >> edo >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin >> wrote: >> >>> Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that >>> implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" >>> is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. >>> >>> Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but >>> the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will >>> start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to >>> mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of >>> these devoted manufacturers... >>> >>> All best, >>> Pablo. >>> >>> >>>On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin < >>> bolext...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. >>> Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least >>> equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave >>> reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to >>> Tri-X. >>> >>> I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to >>> analog filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on >>>
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
When I was a student in the mid 1970s, Ferrania used to make a good colour reversal film and five bath processing kit. This was in the days, now mostly long gone, when people did things; knitting, sewing, repairing, developing etc. The colour was beautiful: soft and subtle, but hard to control in processing. Amazing they're still around, Nicky. -Original Message- From: 40 Frames To: Experimental Film Discussion List Sent: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 19:22 Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them. True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of stocks. I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run through one of my cameras without needing to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO in another camera as well. I've had few issues like this with Kodak BW stocks. Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it lower in cost than ORWO. I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs are printing to ORWO's BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and 3302 may be put on the chopping block soon. Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in manufacturing their stocks. Alain On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote: I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, I would be most grateful! edo On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin wrote: Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of these devoted manufacturers... All best, Pablo. On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to Tri-X. I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. Jean-Louis ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks -- 40 FRAMES Alain LeTourneau Pam Minty 40 FRAMES 5232 North Williams Avenue Portland, Oregon 97217 USA +1 503 231 6548 www.40frames.org www.16mmdirectory.org www.emptyquarterfilm.org ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: > > Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. > > I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely > ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from > Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I > mention this to them. > True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at > the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. > > It is a little complicated with Kodak's recent discontinuation of stocks. I like ORWO, however ORWO stocks -- both UN54 and N74 -- do not run through one of my cameras without needing to make adjustments for running color vs. BW. I've had issues with ORWO in another camera as well. I've had few issues like this with Kodak BW stocks. Also, with Kodak, being in education, I get a discount which makes it lower in cost than ORWO. I've been shooting a project that uses Double-X (7222), Tri-X (7266) processed as negative and ORWO's UN54 and N74. When all of these stocks are printed to 7203 the differences are pretty slight. I don't know what labs are printing to ORWO's BW print stocks... though I would be curious to know, since 7203 and 3302 may be put on the chopping block soon. Ferrania (http://www.filmferrania.it/) might be starting production of color film stocks, but I have yet to see anything...and who knows when such a stock will become available in North America. I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, I just think that ORWO and Ferrania will have to prove they have the same level of QC as Kodak does (and Fuji did). Not that Kodak is/was flawless, but it's amazing how close to perfect they can get in manufacturing their stocks. Alain > > On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote: > > I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' > rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're > continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger > quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing > chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, > I would be most grateful! > > edo > > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin wrote: > >> Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that >> implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" >> is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. >> >> Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but >> the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will >> start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to >> mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of >> these devoted manufacturers... >> >> All best, >> Pablo. >> >> >> On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin < >> bolext...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. >> Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least >> equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave >> reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to >> Tri-X. >> >> I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog >> filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. >> >> Jean-Louis >> >> > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > -- 40 FRAMES Alain LeTourneau Pam Minty 40 FRAMES 5232 North Williams Avenue Portland, Oregon 97217 USA +1 503 231 6548 www.40frames.org www.16mmdirectory.org www.emptyquarterfilm.org ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Hi Jean-Louis, I would be interested in hearing more about these other options for b&w. I know of Orwo but I find it hard to obtain their stocks here in Canada unless you know of somewhere other then LIFT in Toronto? LIFT carries a few of there stocks but not all of them. Roger D. WilsonFilm Scientist613 324 - 7504rogerdwilson@sympatico.cahttp://www.rogerdwilson.ca Without failure you can never achieve success. I have based my process and my career as an experimental film artist on this statement; and I welcome it as it pushes me forward as an artist to try something different, something new. From: bolext...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:53:06 -0400 To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them.True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. Jean-Louis On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote:I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, I would be most grateful! edo On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin wrote: Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of these devoted manufacturers... All best, Pablo. On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X.Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to Tri-X. I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. Jean-Louis ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
This whole thing with Kodak is just so sad--historically, culturally, professionally, and personally. So disappointed as well. Tim From: bolext...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 12:53:06 -0400 To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them.True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. Jean-Louis On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote:I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, I would be most grateful! edo On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin wrote: Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of these devoted manufacturers... All best, Pablo. On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X.Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to Tri-X. I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. Jean-Louis ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Cheap shot? Maybe. I'm just so disappointed in Kodak, personally. I meet filmmakers all the time and it's surprising how many completely ignore the fact that there are other manufacturers in the world apart from Kodak that produce motion picture film stock. Some are truly amazed when I mention this to them. True, when it comes to color negative stocks, Kodak are the only source at the moment. For everything else, there are options out there, luckily. Jean-Louis On 2014-08-30, at 12:21 PM, Edward Choi wrote: > I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' > rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're > continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger quantities? > If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing chain is set up > could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, I would be most > grateful! > > edo > > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin wrote: > Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that implying > that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" is kind of a > cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. > > Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but the > fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will start > charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to mention I > don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of these > devoted manufacturers... > > All best, > Pablo. > > > On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin > wrote: > > > > I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. > Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal in > quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave reviews > since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to Tri-X. > > I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog > filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. > > Jean-Louis > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
I'm a little confused about the discontinuation of 7203 and 7207 in 100' rolls. Does it really save them that much at the margins when they're continuing to manufacture the stock itself and offer it in larger quantities? If someone who knows more about the way their manufacturing chain is set up could explain this, and perhaps disabuse me of my naivety, I would be most grateful! edo On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Pablo Marin wrote: > Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that > implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" > is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. > > Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but the > fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will > start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to > mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of > these devoted manufacturers... > > All best, > Pablo. > > > On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin < > bolext...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. > Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal > in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave > reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to > Tri-X. > > I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog > filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. > > Jean-Louis > > Sent from my iPod > > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:53 AM, Alex Balkam > wrote: > > Hey team Frameworks, > > I just thought I would share news that I received from Kodak... not sure > if the list already knew about this and it is repetition but I felt it > warranted sharing. > > Probably in December Kodak will be announcing the discontinuation of a > number of motion picture film products. The products I know about are: > > *7207 & 7203* 100’ > *Tri-X* 400’ > *5222* 1000’ > *7222* 100’ 400’ > > There may be more than I am aware of. This is in addition to the sad news > about Ektachrome and Hi Con. > > It may be time for Frameworks to consider contacting (or choosing a > Frameworks representative to contact) the higher ups at Kodak to express > the importance that the less industrial, less Hollywood products really > need to be maintained during this challenging time in order that we can > continue to expose young filmmakers and the public to the merits and beauty > of film. All of us on this list help Kodak in various ways by creating our > works on their film stock, and this in turn helps to ensure films presence > moving forward in the motion picture world - whether it be workshops with > kids who will become the filmmakers of the future, experimental cinema or > the fine arts/gallery settings, our efforts help Kodak and we need to make > sure we are pleading our case that they maintain the products we use. > Mainly, I am speaking about Tri-X in 100' 16mm and S8... I was told they > originally were going to discontinue the 100' loads of Tri-X 16mm. > Thankfully, enough people (perhaps film schools and educators) sent letters > to Kodak complaining that this would essentially hinder there ability to > promote film and inspire new generations to appreciate it, so Kodak is > continuing its sale for now. > > Perhaps we need a concerted effort from Frameworks to speak to Kodak > about the merits of maintaining introductory, educational and smaller gauge > film products during this time. I am thinking there must be some way to > make them realize that the only way we will have Tarantinos lobbying major > production companies to guarantee Kodak contracts in the future is to be > able to show the next generation what it means to work on film. > > Thanks! > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > > > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
Although I agree with many of your points, Jean-Louis, I think that implying that Kodak doesn't have a "firm commitment to analog filmmaking" is kind of a cheap shot... when the issue is more complicated than that. Would hate to be mistaken for a capitalist/industry supporter here but the fact is I´m kind of afraid of what some of these "committed" firms will start charging for film once the big old dinosaurs are gone... not to mention I don't see a discount price for students being offered in most of these devoted manufacturers... All best, Pablo. On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:52 PM, Jean-Louis Seguin wrote: I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to Tri-X. I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. Jean-Louis Sent from my iPod On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:53 AM, Alex Balkam wrote: Hey team Frameworks, > > > I just thought I would share news that I received from Kodak... not sure if > the list already knew about this and it is repetition but I felt it warranted > sharing. > > > Probably in December Kodak will be announcing the discontinuation of a number > of motion picture film products. The products I know about are: > >7207 & 7203 100’ >Tri-X 400’ >5222 1000’ >7222 100’ 400’ > > > There may be more than I am aware of. This is in addition to the sad news > about Ektachrome and Hi Con. > > > It may be time for Frameworks to consider contacting (or choosing a > Frameworks representative to contact) the higher ups at Kodak to express the > importance that the less industrial, less Hollywood products really need to > be maintained during this challenging time in order that we can continue to > expose young filmmakers and the public to the merits and beauty of film. All > of us on this list help Kodak in various ways by creating our works on their > film stock, and this in turn helps to ensure films presence moving forward in > the motion picture world - whether it be workshops with kids who will become > the filmmakers of the future, experimental cinema or the fine arts/gallery > settings, our efforts help Kodak and we need to make sure we are pleading our > case that they maintain the products we use. Mainly, I am speaking about > Tri-X in 100' 16mm and S8... I was told they originally were going to > discontinue the 100' loads of Tri-X 16mm. Thankfully, enough people (perhaps film schools and educators) sent letters to Kodak complaining that this would essentially hinder there ability to promote film and inspire new generations to appreciate it, so Kodak is continuing its sale for now. > > > Perhaps we need a concerted effort from Frameworks to speak to Kodak about > the merits of maintaining introductory, educational and smaller gauge film > products during this time. I am thinking there must be some way to make them > realize that the only way we will have Tarantinos lobbying major production > companies to guarantee Kodak contracts in the future is to be able to show > the next generation what it means to work on film. > > > Thanks! ___ >FrameWorks mailing list >FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com >https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks > ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Kodak Film Stocks to be Discontinued, Announced in December
I wouldn't be too dismayed at the disappearance of Tri-X. Both ADOX and ORWO produce black and white reversal that is at least equal in quality to Tri-X. The new ADOX CHS-II in Super8 has received rave reviews since it's introduction and most users seem to find it superior to Tri-X. I would prefer to support companies that have a firm commitment to analog filmmaking rather then those that can't wait to pull the plug on everything. Jean-Louis Sent from my iPod > On Aug 30, 2014, at 8:53 AM, Alex Balkam wrote: > > Hey team Frameworks, > > I just thought I would share news that I received from Kodak... not sure if > the list already knew about this and it is repetition but I felt it warranted > sharing. > > Probably in December Kodak will be announcing the discontinuation of a > number of motion picture film products. The products I know about are: > > 7207 & 7203 100’ > Tri-X 400’ > 5222 1000’ > 7222 100’ 400’ > > There may be more than I am aware of. This is in addition to the sad news > about Ektachrome and Hi Con. > > It may be time for Frameworks to consider contacting (or choosing a > Frameworks representative to contact) the higher ups at Kodak to express the > importance that the less industrial, less Hollywood products really need to > be maintained during this challenging time in order that we can continue to > expose young filmmakers and the public to the merits and beauty of film. All > of us on this list help Kodak in various ways by creating our works on their > film stock, and this in turn helps to ensure films presence moving forward in > the motion picture world - whether it be workshops with kids who will become > the filmmakers of the future, experimental cinema or the fine arts/gallery > settings, our efforts help Kodak and we need to make sure we are pleading our > case that they maintain the products we use. Mainly, I am speaking about > Tri-X in 100' 16mm and S8... I was told they originally were going to > discontinue the 100' loads of Tri-X 16mm. Thankfully, enough people (perhaps > film schools and educators) sent letters to Kodak complaining that this would > essentially hinder there ability to promote film and inspire new generations > to appreciate it, so Kodak is continuing its sale for now. > > Perhaps we need a concerted effort from Frameworks to speak to Kodak about > the merits of maintaining introductory, educational and smaller gauge film > products during this time. I am thinking there must be some way to make them > realize that the only way we will have Tarantinos lobbying major production > companies to guarantee Kodak contracts in the future is to be able to show > the next generation what it means to work on film. > > Thanks! > ___ > FrameWorks mailing list > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
