lnc driver, was RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bernt Hansson writes: Your machine is NOT on the HCL list. The lnc(4) driver supports the following adapters: If the Ethernet card on the machine is supported, this implies that the machine is supported (otherwise why mention the card?). The lnc driver is a special case, however. The Lance chipset was one of the ones implemented on Sparc systems, where it worked well. On PC systems it was implemented in ISA cards most commonly the NE2100. These implementations usually stank horribly as the chipset and card it's on are busmasters, and ISA busmaster implementations are horribly fickle. I've had many crashes on otherwise rock solid systems back 10 years ago when I was fooling around with these cards. So apparently did most other admins as the NE2100 card was never popular. (unlike the NE2000 and NE3200) Another problem was that ISA cards cannot busmaster past the 16MB boundary and Netware 3.x had an arcane way of setting up SCSI and NIC busmasters which most admins didn't pay attention to, thus they had problems. If you really have enabled a Lance adapter in your Vectra then no wonder your having problems, turn it off immediately and put in some other NIC card. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin McCann writes: then stop complaining to a list of 'kiddies', and use that. MS doesn't support FreeBSD. Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. Bullshit, Anthony! http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/02/07/SharedSourceCLI/ ...Microsoft built the Shared Source CLI to compile and run on FreeBSD Unix as well as Windows XP... http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=3a1c93fa-7462-47 d0-8e56-8dd34c6292f0displaylang=en ...This implementation builds and runs on Windows XP, the FreeBSD operating system... Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On 31 Mar Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. Please, control yourself Ted. It's /so/ quite lately ;-) -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 4.11 ++ FreeBSD 5.3 + Nai tiruvantel ar vayuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilja ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martin McCann writes: then stop complaining to a list of 'kiddies', and use that. MS doesn't support FreeBSD. Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. Bullshit, Anthony! http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/02/07/SharedSourceCLI/ ...Microsoft built the Shared Source CLI to compile and run on FreeBSD Unix as well as Windows XP... http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=3a1c93fa-7462-47 d0-8e56-8dd34c6292f0displaylang=en ...This implementation builds and runs on Windows XP, the FreeBSD operating system... Ted If I know Anthony, he'll reply to the above something like: Perhaps - but I'm talking about WindowsNT... -- Best regards, Chris Why worry about tomorrow? We may not make it through today! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski skrev: Someone must be running my machine, since it is mentioned on the 5.3 compatibility list. Your machine is NOT on the HCL list. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bernt Hansson writes: Your machine is NOT on the HCL list. The lnc(4) driver supports the following adapters: * Novell NE2100 * Novell NE32-VL * Isolan AT 4141-0 (16 bit) * Isolan BICC * Isolink 4110 (8 bit) * Diamond HomeFree * Digital DEPCA * Hewlett Packard Vectra 486/66XM * Hewlett Packard Vectra XU If the Ethernet card on the machine is supported, this implies that the machine is supported (otherwise why mention the card?). And not all supported hardware is explicitly mentioned on the list, as the list itself says: FreeBSD/i386 runs on a wide variety of 'IBM PC compatible' machines. Due to the wide range of hardware available for this architecture, it is impossible to exhaustively list all combinations of equipment supported by FreeBSD. Nevertheless, some general guidelines are presented here. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. Bullshit, Anthony! http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/02/07/SharedSourceCLI/ ...Microsoft built the Shared Source CLI to compile and run on FreeBSD Unix as well as Windows XP... See my comment on FreeBSD being supported on the Vectra XU. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Yes, they do - I've got a Compaq professional workstation on my desk at work which has a modded microcode in an Adaptec 2940U adapter card (I know it's modded because the card will not work in any other non-Compaq system, even where non-Compaq-branded 2940U cards will work) that displays similar disk strangeness (although it doesen't spew errors) This is the same scsi chipset as Anthonys Vectra. (aic7880) And what does Compaq give you in exchange for the headache of a non-standard adapter card? They take away the ability to press f5 during boot to configure the card and in exchange the card's bios talks to the Compaq software configuration utility, so when you go into the software config that you use to configure the PC you can also config the SCSI card. Can you replace Compaq's distorted adapter with a standard one, Yes This incidentally is WHY I am speculating it's a microcode mod (and it was I that started this line of discussion regarding the microcode on his SCSI chipset) because I have proof positive that modded microcode in other manufacturer's aic7880-based SCSI adapters has problems with the ahc driver. How did you resolve the problem? Just today I replaced the Quantum 8GB Fireball with a Seagate 4GB baracuda, I have not yet built a system on there yet so we will see what happens. If it doesen't work I have another scsi card around, it irks me to toss a perfectly good scsi adapter card just because the ijuts that made it slapped a weirdo firmware on it. Unfortunately, Anthony won't do the least bit of troubleshooting (such as pulling the Quantum disk and just running on the Seagate disk in this system to see if perhaps the problem is execerbated by one or the other implementations of SCSI in one or the other of the disks - granted that is a long shot, but it's within the realm of possibility it might fix it) so I doubt he would do anything that the ahc driver (who most likely isn't even subscribed to freebsd-questions) tells him to do in the way of troubleshooting either. Anything isn't going to do anything until someone can tell him what the existing messages are saying. I don't go pulling boards every time I see a message that I don't recognize. The existing messages are pretty clear IMHO. I don't know what Linux will or won't do, and unlike you, I'm not prepared to make wild guesses. If there is one single thing that will prevent you from getting FreeBSD running on the most systems, that is it. Let me tell you a story. Back in 1992 I was a lowly IT tech at Central Point Software. (Sadly at that time CPS had not the vision to recognize the importance of FreeBSD - they didn't recognize the importance of a great many other things but that's a different story) Some idiot had bought 25 Zenith 486 desktop systems (I think it was 486 could have been 386's though) the previous year. We had these systems failing about once a month by then. The IT department had a big closet with about 10 of them piled up. When one broke we would put a different PC on their desk then take the 486 back to the closet. I resolved one day to clean out the closet. I pulled all systems out and set them all up and tested each one - one had a bad video board, one had a bad disk drive, etc. etc. By pulling a good video card out of one and replacing a bad video card in another one with the video card I pulled, I was able to get a pile of working systems and a pile of broken parts. I took all the broken parts and put them into 2 of the chassises, intending to throw them out. For grins I plugged in both systems full of broken parts to see how bad they would be. Both powered up and worked perfectly. After that day I have always included the capability of 'making wild guesses' in my troubleshooting. You make wild guesses after you have exhausted normal troubleshooting. This is the difference between a medeocre 'by the book' repair tech, and a true master, and it is why the master manages to fix things that others believe are beyond hope. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: The main point I've been trying to make is that just because FreeBSD's drivers don't support whatever modification has been made in the Adaptec code on the Vectra, does not mean that the FreeBSD driver is broken or has a bug in it. When something doesn't work, it's broken. If you consider a change in firmware to be a hardware problem, then a lack of proper handling of the firmware in the OS must also be a problem. I don't see why the same standards wouldn't apply to both. The key point here, though, is that Windows apparently works correctly with the firmware, whatever changes that firmware may contain. FreeBSD does not. Therefore FreeBSD is broken. But you are correct in that these are trapdoor systems - if you do not install the Compaq/HP-written drivers at the right times during the install, then Windows loads it's default drivers which may or may not (usually not) work. And once loaded you cannot unload them and replace them with the manufacturer-supplied ones because the operating system won't let you do things like unloading the device driver that runs the controller that the system disk is on, things like that. You have to nuke and repave. I often wonder why people even buy servers from these vendors when they have so much vendor-specific junk on them. I suppose there isn't much competition. It seems to me that it should be possible to build equally good servers with entirely off-the-shelf, standard components, and no magic firmware or software. But vendors apparently cannot resist changing _something_. I think Dell is the same way, though. I suspect all the name brand systems are - that is why people buy name-brand server systems, to get the extra little features like the preemptive disk failure monitoring, the case-open/case-closed, temperature, fanspeed, power supply voltage monitoring, and all the other proprietary little features. I suppose it's seductive initially, but after fighting with proprietary hardware and software for a while, it gets old. Forget the case-open switch and the three-dimensional beeping animated temperature monitoring application, and just buy commodity hardware and software. In exchange for sacrificing a few frills, you get something that behaves predictably and can be maintained cheaply without critical dependencies on one supplier. I'm pleased that I built my current server myself out of stuff bought right off the shelf. It may be 1-2% less performant than a name-brand, all-in-one server, but at least I know exactly what's in the machine, and virtually none of it is dependent on any single supplier or single model of hardware component. If I want to buy spare disks, I can get them for 80, and I can choose from a wide variety of brands; if this were a proprietary name-brand machine, I'd have to pay 300 per disk, and I'd be at the mercy of the vendor (if he stopped selling the specially tweaked disks required by his server, I'd be out of luck). That's the problem with my HP machine. It still runs great and may continue to do so for a long time, but if it breaks down, there's no way to fix it, as just plugging in commodity parts won't do. Even the memory had to be ordered special. It's very much like buying the Lexus that comes with the key chip - you get the extra feature of not being able to start the car without a key with a chip in it, with the downside that only Lexus supplies the chipped keys (and charges you up the ass for them of course) Yes. :-) Actualy I didn't cover that. Manufacturers put these proprietary things in their server products because they are features that are very useful to organizations that run hundreds if not thousands of servers all over the country or the world - with the caveat of course that every server has to be the same model and come from that same manufacturer to get the full benefit of the little fancy features. But to most of us who don't run these large networks, these features do nothing at best, and are an annoyance at worst. The trend in the IT industry has always been away from proprietary and towards commodity. The fancy little features eventually disappear over time. And they often are not missed. The HP disk sector atomicity thing was a great feature if you had disks on an external cabinet that didn't have a UPS on it. Sure, laugh, but when you have a large HP minicomputer with a disk pack the size of a refrigerator that has 50 scsi disks in it, that consumes 15Kw, you don't just go down and grab a UPS from Office Depot. But naturally for small PC's it was a completely stupid and useless feature which is why no other disk manufacturer bothered to license HP's patent on it. What does sector atomicity do? While I can't of course say that the Adaptec microcode in Anthony's server was modified to support this particular feature, clearly HP had some fancy feature support in mind which is why they tampered with the microcode to begin
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:23:46 +0200 Anthony Atkielski wrote: The key point here, though, is that Windows apparently works correctly with the firmware, whatever changes that firmware may contain. FreeBSD does not. Therefore FreeBSD is broken. Wrong. Windows does /not/ work correctly with the firmware if you let it use it's own drivers (like FreeBSD does). /Both/ OS's choke then! Forget the case-open switch and the three-dimensional beeping animated temperature monitoring application, and just buy commodity hardware and software. In exchange for sacrificing a few frills, you get something that behaves predictably and can be maintained cheaply without critical dependencies on one supplier. Right. Plus Windows as well as FreeBSD will run on it flawlessly. So what's your point in all those previous messages if you knew so well what was the correct attitude in buying hardware? -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 4.11 ++ FreeBSD 5.3 + Nai tiruvantel ar vayuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilja ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
dick hoogendijk writes: Wrong. Windows does /not/ work correctly with the firmware if you let it use it's own drivers (like FreeBSD does). /Both/ OS's choke then! Sorry, but that's incorrect. For eight years I ran a completely standard retail version of Windows NT on the machine, straight off the shelf. No special drivers required. I never had any problems. Right. Plus Windows as well as FreeBSD will run on it flawlessly. I haven't tried Windows on a home-made box, but FreeBSD seems to run on it without any trouble. Apparently FreeBSD does have a problem with the on-board gigabit Ethernet interface on this motherboard, but I just plugged in my existing 3Com 100 Mbps Ethernet card and configured that instead, and the problem went away. So what's your point in all those previous messages if you knew so well what was the correct attitude in buying hardware? My point was that FreeBSD doesn't work on the machine. I wanted to know why. I still don't know why it doesn't work on the machine. Apparently nobody here really knows how FreeBSD works. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: The main point I've been trying to make is that just because FreeBSD's drivers don't support whatever modification has been made in the Adaptec code on the Vectra, does not mean that the FreeBSD driver is broken or has a bug in it. When something doesn't work, it's broken. I disagree - If FBSD does not (or did not) know of the HP/Compaq tweakes in the microcode, how can you claim it's broken? If MS does not support or have a driver for so-and-so app or hardware, does it also mean Windows is broken? According to you, it is. According to the vast majority, it's not broken, it's merely unsupported. You could say the same about your hardware based on what you just said, if FBSD does not have the teaks to the driver version you need, then (as you think) your hardware is broken. As you stated, you can't have it both ways. Why not just agree that both FBSD AND your hardware are broken? Oh - I know, it worked for 8 years... Read above to if MS don't support or have a driver for x, y, and z - then as you say, Windows is broken. Can't have it both ways mate. Know the difference. -- Best regards, Chris The time it takes to rectify a situation is inversely proportional to the time it took to do the damage. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: I disagree - If FBSD does not (or did not) know of the HP/Compaq tweakes in the microcode, how can you claim it's broken? Because it works with Windows NT. If MS does not support or have a driver for so-and-so app or hardware, does it also mean Windows is broken? No, but if the base code in the OS fails to handle the hardware properly, Windows is broken. As for drivers, it depends on the hardware. Nobody has demonstrated to me that the hardware on this machine is so exotic that it cannot be supported with standard drivers thus far. And the copy of Windows I ran came right off the shelf; it was not a tweaked version from HP (such a version came preinstalled, but the first thing I did with the hardware was wipe the hard disk). According to you, it is. According to the vast majority, it's not broken, it's merely unsupported. Same thing. And we really don't know if it's supported or not. I _still_ do not know what the messages mean, and neither does anyone else here. Everyone is just _guessing_ and freely speculating in the direction that he finds most pleasing. You could say the same about your hardware based on what you just said, if FBSD does not have the teaks to the driver version you need, then (as you think) your hardware is broken. Yes ... except that it worked with Windows NT. Why not just agree that both FBSD AND your hardware are broken? Oh - I know, it worked for 8 years... Yes. Read above to if MS don't support or have a driver for x, y, and z - then as you say, Windows is broken. Yes. But offhand I don't recall anything for which I was unable to obtain a Windows driver. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 27, 2005, at 7:01 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: Tell that to the MS developers then - perhaps they will listen to you. Done. What did they say? Tell them to stop producing bloated code. I've tried, but that is both a tendency of many developers (especially PC developers) and a marketing imperative. Isn't that how many FOSS projects get started...do some task more efficiently and better? Code that allows every 12 year-old on the planet to code a new back door, Trojan, or virus. Bloat alone doesn't allow that, Nope, but it sure makes it a lot simpler! Actually it helps hamper finding bugs that allow it to happen. and Microsoft code isn't any more vulnerable to this than any other code of comparable complexity for PC systems. As has been shown time and time again in Microsoft-sponsored studies comparing Windows to Linux. After removing the power supply and encasing my system in concrete, it is FAR more secure than I've ever dreamt possible, and that was with it running DOS! :-) Tell them - and once they start doing that - maybe the real technical users around the world won't snicker when they here the word, Microsoft. What does any of this have to do with FreeBSD? They're among the chorus that keeps snickering. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: I disagree - If FBSD does not (or did not) know of the HP/Compaq tweakes in the microcode, how can you claim it's broken? Because it works with Windows NT. If MS does not support or have a driver for so-and-so app or hardware, does it also mean Windows is broken? No, but if the base code in the OS fails to handle the hardware properly, Windows is broken. As for drivers, it depends on the hardware. Nobody has demonstrated to me that the hardware on this machine is so exotic that it cannot be supported with standard drivers thus far. And the copy of Windows I ran came right off the shelf; it was not a tweaked version from HP (such a version came preinstalled, but the first thing I did with the hardware was wipe the hard disk). According to you, it is. According to the vast majority, it's not broken, it's merely unsupported. Same thing. And we really don't know if it's supported or not. I _still_ do not know what the messages mean, and neither does anyone else here. Everyone is just _guessing_ and freely speculating in the direction that he finds most pleasing. You could say the same about your hardware based on what you just said, if FBSD does not have the teaks to the driver version you need, then (as you think) your hardware is broken. Yes ... except that it worked with Windows NT. Why not just agree that both FBSD AND your hardware are broken? Oh - I know, it worked for 8 years... Yes. Read above to if MS don't support or have a driver for x, y, and z - then as you say, Windows is broken. Yes. But offhand I don't recall anything for which I was unable to obtain a Windows driver. Ok - I'm about to set the game point and win this one. Anthony, you of all people know that with NT 4, you have learned that one MUST read the HCL (Hardware Compatability List) BEFORE you try to install. That being said, you also know that if it aint on the HCL, you're SOL *Shake your head yes* Ok, now - being that you know this, did you check FBSD's version of the HCL BEFORE you installed? Did it specifically list that adapter WITH the HP/Compaq enhanced microcode? NO - It does not. So, what does that mean? That means it not listed as a supported item. What does that mean? Well - much like the HCL list of NT4, YOU are on your own. You can't argue with that - and if you can, you are showing that you are indeed out of your mind. -- Best regards, Chris PGP Fingerprint = D976 2575 D0B4 E4B0 45CC AA09 0F93 FF80 C01B C363 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 28, 2005, at 3:08 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris Warren writes: I'm not an NT fan myself, but from reading your past posts, it seems to do everything you need far better than freebsd. Why not just stick with NT/2k? Just curious. I wanted to diversify my experience. In arguing? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 28, 2005, at 9:21 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: Yay! *claps* Isn't that what Ted has been telling you to an extent - that it's the HP/Compaq microcode in the drivers? No. He and most other people have been trying to convince me that it's defective hardware, and not a deficiency of the operating system. Microcode *in the hardware*um...hello?tap tap tap This thing on? In this case, the OS is defective, because it's not doing its job. I know the job can be done because Windows NT does it. I think, correct me if I'm wrong Ted (et al), that he's saying the microcode in the hardware was modified, thus has a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller, and the driver/interface in NT either didn't get the error or was *ignoring* the error, whereas FreeBSD, with a driver/interface based on the generic and marketed version of the controller, was saying HELLO, SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT HERE!, and spewed it to the error logs. That makes it a hardware problem, unless you modify that driver to ignore the error (like NT does) or get rid of the proprietary and/or possibly failing controller in the first place. Anthony - have you ever setup a new HP/Compaq server? Ever use the SmartStart CD's? I don't remember if I ever did it myself. Compaq servers are such a nightmare that I tried to avoid dealing with them. Because they modify things so they're *almost* off the shelf, but aren't, perhaps? Among other things they do to introduce glitches? In contrast, you CAN'T (hear me again) CAN'T install Windows (shrink wrap) on the above without them. It's becasue HP/C has propriatarty drivers. That may be, but I installed an off-the-shelf retail version of Windows NT on this system, and it ran without any problems at all. If you want to keep insisting on how superior it is, then reinstall it and ignore the warnings. Why is this not an option to consider? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:28 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: I disagree - If FBSD does not (or did not) know of the HP/Compaq tweakes in the microcode, how can you claim it's broken? Because it works with Windows NT. If a machine with a gig of memory runs fine under DOS but actually has a bad big of memory hardware near the 512 meg address range, it would probably still run flawlessly for a very very long time... If MS does not support or have a driver for so-and-so app or hardware, does it also mean Windows is broken? No, but if the base code in the OS fails to handle the hardware properly, Windows is broken. But if you swap the hardware with a replacement and it works, how do you explain Windows being broken when that would suggest it was the hardware that was broken? As for drivers, it depends on the hardware. Nobody has demonstrated to me that the hardware on this machine is so exotic that it cannot be supported with standard drivers thus far. You never put it on another identical Vectra to prove it was reproducible. And the copy of Windows I ran came right off the shelf; it was not a tweaked version from HP (such a version came preinstalled, but the first thing I did with the hardware was wipe the hard disk). The problem being asserted is that the hardware was tweaked. The firmware microcode. According to you, it is. According to the vast majority, it's not broken, it's merely unsupported. Same thing. Really? Windows XP must be broken. I can't install it on my Mac. You could say the same about your hardware based on what you just said, if FBSD does not have the teaks to the driver version you need, then (as you think) your hardware is broken. Yes ... except that it worked with Windows NT. Fine. FreeBSD is broken. Reinstall Windows and stop complaining. Read above to if MS don't support or have a driver for x, y, and z - then as you say, Windows is broken. Yes. But offhand I don't recall anything for which I was unable to obtain a Windows driver. Because Windows is far superior in every way shape and form. You should reinstall it and leave this list. PS-if you can still get a driver for the timex Ironman triathlon watch, care to share the link? I can't seem to find it anymore for the Windows 2000 system to work without some IR interface...I wanted to use the screen to update it still...or is Windows broken because I can't use it anymore? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Chris wrote: Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: I disagree - If FBSD does not (or did not) know of the HP/Compaq tweakes in the microcode, how can you claim it's broken? Because it works with Windows NT. This whole thread is about ridiculous. Does it work in XP? Does it work in Linux? Does it work on an Apple Friggin IIe? Point is, I have cards that work in FreeBSD, that dont work in XP. I have cards that work in 2000 that do not work in FreeBSD. What I do is, I search the lists for an answer. If I cant find one, then, I ask for guidance. This Anthony has searched for guidance, and, has been told to send a nice mail, with output, to the people who work on the drivers. I killfiled Anthony awhile ago, because of his senseless asinine behavior. Yet, I still get replies, because, some of Bart and Chris's comments have been pretty good. =) However, we have come full circle for the 32,767th time now, and, this thread needs to die. Therefore, Andrew is an NT Nazi, plain and simple. He will never give up on beating the dead horse that is it worked on NT. Like hitler with poland, he will not release the primitive, shortsighted, and unabashedly ignorant viewpoint that if it worked in NT, it should work in FreeBSD, and if it dosent, than FreeBSD is flawed NT uber alles! I now, in accordance with the laws of discussion threads, I invoke Godwin's law on myself, and the thread. It needs to die. Thank's for flying FreeBSD. -- Duo Although the Buddhists will tell you that desire is the root of suffering, my personal experience leads me to point the finger at system administration. --Philip Greenspun ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: What did they say? MS developers are much like most other developers: it's never their fault. Isn't that how many FOSS projects get started...do some task more efficiently and better? FOSS? Nope, but it sure makes it a lot simpler! Actually it helps hamper finding bugs that allow it to happen. It depends on how the code is written, but I'll agree that most bloated code is written in great haste, with no attention at all given to the many holes that are opened by all those millions of extra lines of deadwood. As has been shown time and time again in Microsoft-sponsored studies comparing Windows to Linux. After removing the power supply and encasing my system in concrete, it is FAR more secure than I've ever dreamt possible, and that was with it running DOS! :-) There's nothing unique about Windows. But more people attack Windows, so more holes are found and exploited. Linux is rapidly catching up. And Mac OS X isn't immune, although I suspect that almost all the holes being found in OS X are in Apple's code, not the base OS. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: Ok - I'm about to set the game point and win this one. Anthony, you of all people know that with NT 4, you have learned that one MUST read the HCL (Hardware Compatability List) BEFORE you try to install. That being said, you also know that if it aint on the HCL, you're SOL *Shake your head yes* My machine is on both the Windows and FreeBSD lists. Ok, now - being that you know this, did you check FBSD's version of the HCL BEFORE you installed? No, but I didn't check Windows' list, either. As it happens, it's on both lists. Did it specifically list that adapter WITH the HP/Compaq enhanced microcode? No. But it mentioned the machine, and it didn't list any exclusions. NO - It does not. So, what does that mean? That means it not listed as a supported item. What does that mean? Well - much like the HCL list of NT4, YOU are on your own. In other words, the FreeBSD list is worthless, since if something on the list doesn't work, one can always claim that there is some _specific_ detail about one's hardware that the list didn't _explicitly_ approve. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: In arguing? In operating systems, or more specifically, UNIX versions. I considered installing Solaris, but it won't fit on my disks. I tried installing Mandrake, but it refused to get past the splash screen on installation. At least FreeBSD installed, although it won't boot on its own, and as long as I don't do any disk I/O, it runs fine. So I guess it's already ahead of Solaris and Mandrake Linux, but still way behind Windows NT. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: I think, correct me if I'm wrong Ted (et al), that he's saying the microcode in the hardware was modified, thus has a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller, and the driver/interface in NT either didn't get the error or was *ignoring* the error, whereas FreeBSD, with a driver/interface based on the generic and marketed version of the controller, was saying HELLO, SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT HERE!, and spewed it to the error logs. That is 100% guesswork. You have no idea why FreeBSD generated the error messages. If you do, then tell me _exactly_ what they mean. If it's just a matter of all-wise FreeBSD detecting a bug that dopey Windows NT missed, why were there never any problems with data loss or corruption under NT, and why did NT never stall as a result of problems with the disks ... and why didn't NT ever crash? FreeBSD not only spews out error messages that nobody understands or can explain, but it stalls, and sometimes it panics. That makes it a hardware problem, unless you modify that driver to ignore the error (like NT does) or get rid of the proprietary and/or possibly failing controller in the first place. If it's an error you can ignored, it's not a hardware problem. If it's a failing controller, well, it's been failing for eight years now, and yet it still works. Because they modify things so they're *almost* off the shelf, but aren't, perhaps? A lot more than almost, I'm afraid. Among other things they do to introduce glitches? What they introduce is mainly incompatibilities. You have to do everything their way, or not at all. If you want to keep insisting on how superior it is, then reinstall it and ignore the warnings. Why is this not an option to consider? Because I'd rather run FreeBSD, if I could just get it to work. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: If a machine with a gig of memory runs fine under DOS but actually has a bad big of memory hardware near the 512 meg address range, it would probably still run flawlessly for a very very long time... This machine has 384 MB of very expensive RAM, and all of it was used by Windows NT. But if you swap the hardware with a replacement and it works, how do you explain Windows being broken when that would suggest it was the hardware that was broken? I don't recall ever swapping anything. I have no reason to believe that a hardware failure has occurred. You never put it on another identical Vectra to prove it was reproducible. Why does it have to be reproducible on another machine? It doesn't work on my machine, and that's sufficient. If you can tell me what all the error messages mean, then please do so. If you can't, you're just throwing darts. The problem being asserted is that the hardware was tweaked. The firmware microcode. No assertion is worthy of my time unless it is preceded by an explanation of the exact meaning of all the error messages I'm seeing. Really? Windows XP must be broken. I can't install it on my Mac. Swap out the hardware and see if it goes away. See if you can reproduce the problem on another Mac. It's possible that Windows uses the hardware much more efficiently than the Mac OS X, and it doesn't run on your machine simply because you have a hardware failure that OS X couldn't detect. Fine. FreeBSD is broken. Reinstall Windows and stop complaining. I'd rather fix FreeBSD. PS-if you can still get a driver for the timex Ironman triathlon watch, care to share the link? I can't seem to find it anymore for the Windows 2000 system to work without some IR interface...I wanted to use the screen to update it still...or is Windows broken because I can't use it anymore? Did it ever work on Windows NT-based systems? All I recall is that it looked like a custom-written trigger for photosensitive epilepsy. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Duo writes: Does it work in XP? Probably, but I'm not going to spend hundreds of euro to find out for sure. Does it work in Linux? I don't know. Mandrake seems to have a problem. I didn't try any of the other 23,441 distros of Linux. Does it work on an Apple Friggin IIe? ? Point is, I have cards that work in FreeBSD, that dont work in XP. I have cards that work in 2000 that do not work in FreeBSD. OK -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 01:25:34PM +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: My point was that FreeBSD doesn't work on the machine. I wanted to know why. I still don't know why it doesn't work on the machine. Apparently nobody here really knows how FreeBSD works. So you keep saying. It probably is true that the people who maintain whichever Adaptec driver it was you're having trouble with - who I guess would 'really know how FreeBSD works' in this context - don't follow the -questions list too closely. Really, your best bet at this point is to gather up all the error messages, boot-time output, details of the BIOS/microcode versions of your adapter, etc. and file a PR. You clearly have identified a real problem, and that is the officially supported way of getting it looked at. Regards, Scott ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: Ok - I'm about to set the game point and win this one. Anthony, you of all people know that with NT 4, you have learned that one MUST read the HCL (Hardware Compatability List) BEFORE you try to install. That being said, you also know that if it aint on the HCL, you're SOL *Shake your head yes* My machine is on both the Windows and FreeBSD lists. No - NOT the PC - the hardware that's in question. The Adaptec WITH the modified code. I'm willing to bet, it's not. Keep on target - don't toss other crap to divert. Stick to the one part of the hardware that IS the red hearing. Ok, now - being that you know this, did you check FBSD's version of the HCL BEFORE you installed? No, but I didn't check Windows' list, either. As it happens, it's on both lists. Again - I doubt that that perticulare Adaptec WITH the modifide code is listed. Now I'll bet an untouched Adaptec is. Did it specifically list that adapter WITH the HP/Compaq enhanced microcode? No. But it mentioned the machine, and it didn't list any exclusions. The PC is NOT the issue. The modified Adaptec IS. Stay on target, stay on target. NO - It does not. So, what does that mean? That means it not listed as a supported item. What does that mean? Well - much like the HCL list of NT4, YOU are on your own. In other words, the FreeBSD list is worthless, since if something on the list doesn't work, one can always claim that there is some _specific_ detail about one's hardware that the list didn't _explicitly_ approve. No - not worthless - NOT SUPPORTED. Just like the HCL that MS puts out. Another thing to understand, most of the HP added code is related to SNMP. That's what HP/Compaq does. Now, you also need to realize that the drivers under NT talk to HAL (Hardware Abstration Layer) which happenes to be far more forgiving of altered code then something under Unix where the driver talks directly to the hardware. Think about it. -- Best regards, Chris PGP Fingerprint = D976 2575 D0B4 E4B0 45CC AA09 0F93 FF80 C01B C363 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bart Silverstrim Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:51 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay In this case, the OS is defective, because it's not doing its job. I know the job can be done because Windows NT does it. I think, correct me if I'm wrong Ted (et al), that he's saying the microcode in the hardware was modified, thus has a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller, He is saying that the microcode was modified and that we speculate that the mods contain a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller. and the driver/interface in NT either didn't get the error or was *ignoring* the error, Or had whatever extra code was needed for the microcode mods. whereas FreeBSD, with a driver/interface based on the generic and marketed version of the controller, was saying HELLO, SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT HERE!, and spewed it to the error logs. That makes it a hardware problem, unless you modify that driver to ignore the error (like NT does) or get rid of the proprietary and/or possibly failing controller in the first place. This the problem with standards, everyone's got one. Anthony - have you ever setup a new HP/Compaq server? Ever use the SmartStart CD's? I don't remember if I ever did it myself. Compaq servers are such a nightmare that I tried to avoid dealing with them. Because they modify things so they're *almost* off the shelf, but aren't, perhaps? Among other things they do to introduce glitches? Yes, they do - I've got a Compaq professional workstation on my desk at work which has a modded microcode in an Adaptec 2940U adapter card (I know it's modded because the card will not work in any other non-Compaq system, even where non-Compaq-branded 2940U cards will work) that displays similar disk strangeness (although it doesen't spew errors) This is the same scsi chipset as Anthonys Vectra. (aic7880) This incidentally is WHY I am speculating it's a microcode mod (and it was I that started this line of discussion regarding the microcode on his SCSI chipset) because I have proof positive that modded microcode in other manufacturer's aic7880-based SCSI adapters has problems with the ahc driver. In contrast, you CAN'T (hear me again) CAN'T install Windows (shrink wrap) on the above without them. It's becasue HP/C has propriatarty drivers. That may be, but I installed an off-the-shelf retail version of Windows NT on this system, and it ran without any problems at all. If you want to keep insisting on how superior it is, then reinstall it and ignore the warnings. Why is this not an option to consider? He doesen't want to run Windows (on this system at least) He wants the FreeBSD ahc driver modded so that it won't generate errors and SCSI bus resets anymore under FreeBSD. I think he thinks the way to get this done is to say the ahc driver is full of bugs and then the driver author will be so embarassed that he will fall over himself to make the mods to the ahc driver (AKA 'fix' the driver) Unfortunately, Anthony won't do the least bit of troubleshooting (such as pulling the Quantum disk and just running on the Seagate disk in this system to see if perhaps the problem is execerbated by one or the other implementations of SCSI in one or the other of the disks - granted that is a long shot, but it's within the realm of possibility it might fix it) so I doubt he would do anything that the ahc driver (who most likely isn't even subscribed to freebsd-questions) tells him to do in the way of troubleshooting either. Also long forgotten in this discussion is Anthony stated once on this list that Mandrake Linux wouldn't even install on this Vectra system either. I am not sure why he's trying to hold FreeBSD up to the driver support of Windows NT when Linux won't even talk to the card in his system. (and we all know that Windows has far better support for the oddest-ballist modifications of standard computer components such as SCSI adapters than FreeBSD does since they have unlimited money to buy oddball samples of hardware to experiment with) Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: No - NOT the PC - the hardware that's in question. The Adaptec WITH the modified code. I'm willing to bet, it's not. Should I check for restrictions on chipset temperature, relative humidity, and atmospheric pressure as well? Again - I doubt that that perticulare Adaptec WITH the modifide code is listed. Now I'll bet an untouched Adaptec is. Nothing on the list says either way. The PC is NOT the issue. The modified Adaptec IS. FreeBSD is the target, not the controller. No - not worthless - NOT SUPPORTED. Just like the HCL that MS puts out. There are lots of configurations unsupported by Microsoft that will still run Windows without problems. Another thing to understand, most of the HP added code is related to SNMP. That's what HP/Compaq does. Now, you also need to realize that the drivers under NT talk to HAL (Hardware Abstration Layer) which happenes to be far more forgiving of altered code then something under Unix where the driver talks directly to the hardware. Are you saying that Windows NT has a superior design? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 20:50 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: No - NOT the PC - the hardware that's in question. The Adaptec WITH the modified code. I'm willing to bet, it's not. Should I check for restrictions on chipset temperature, relative humidity, and atmospheric pressure as well? Of course you should - if you are running it somewhat out off the ordinary, you should check that it will run with your peculiar setup. I think a bespoke hardware modification fits the bill perfectly for out of the ordinary, and so would require extra verification. I suppose if you where to run it at high temperatues, or a very humid environment, and the os throw up some errors, that would be the OS fault as well, since your hardware is above reproach? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: He is saying that the microcode was modified and that we speculate that the mods contain a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller. What makes it a _bug_? Why would the modified firmware contain a bug ... but not FreeBSD? Or had whatever extra code was needed for the microcode mods. Yes, or approached the hardware in a way that made the modifications irrelevant. Yes, they do - I've got a Compaq professional workstation on my desk at work which has a modded microcode in an Adaptec 2940U adapter card (I know it's modded because the card will not work in any other non-Compaq system, even where non-Compaq-branded 2940U cards will work) that displays similar disk strangeness (although it doesen't spew errors) This is the same scsi chipset as Anthonys Vectra. (aic7880) And what does Compaq give you in exchange for the headache of a non-standard adapter card? Can you replace Compaq's distorted adapter with a standard one, or is it theirs or nothing? This incidentally is WHY I am speculating it's a microcode mod (and it was I that started this line of discussion regarding the microcode on his SCSI chipset) because I have proof positive that modded microcode in other manufacturer's aic7880-based SCSI adapters has problems with the ahc driver. How did you resolve the problem? He doesen't want to run Windows (on this system at least) Correct. It's a more or less spare system and I'm more interesting in getting more experience with UNIX than with getting more experience with Windows. I already know plenty about Windows. He wants the FreeBSD ahc driver modded so that it won't generate errors and SCSI bus resets anymore under FreeBSD. That would be nice, if it's a legitimate bug in the FreeBSD code (which I suspect it is). If it's a regression (i.e., a change that would break the behavior with standard hardware), then the utility of changing it is debatable (although I still wouldn't object to a version that would run on my hardware). In any case, this wonderfully fun experience is pushing me more and more in the direction of home-built hardware, and further and further away from brand-name machines. I'm glad I decided to build my own server instead of buying that IBM eSeries machine. Who knows what problems I might have had with it? Unfortunately, Anthony won't do the least bit of troubleshooting (such as pulling the Quantum disk and just running on the Seagate disk in this system to see if perhaps the problem is execerbated by one or the other implementations of SCSI in one or the other of the disks - granted that is a long shot, but it's within the realm of possibility it might fix it) so I doubt he would do anything that the ahc driver (who most likely isn't even subscribed to freebsd-questions) tells him to do in the way of troubleshooting either. Anything isn't going to do anything until someone can tell him what the existing messages are saying. I don't go pulling boards every time I see a message that I don't recognize. Also long forgotten in this discussion is Anthony stated once on this list that Mandrake Linux wouldn't even install on this Vectra system either. It stops after the splash screen, but I think that is related to the same problem that prevents FreeBSD from booting directly from disk. I am not sure why he's trying to hold FreeBSD up to the driver support of Windows NT when Linux won't even talk to the card in his system. I don't know what Linux will or won't do, and unlike you, I'm not prepared to make wild guesses. I know only that Mandrake Linux will stall after displaying a splash screen, and that's that. ... and we all know that Windows has far better support for the oddest-ballist modifications of standard computer components such as SCSI adapters than FreeBSD does since they have unlimited money to buy oddball samples of hardware to experiment with ... I suspect they just ask the vendor for information on the hardware. Even Microsoft has neither the time nor the money to test every conceivable hardware configuration. A more likely scenario is that the vendor itself writes the driver and then has Microsoft certify it. The certification is pretty rudimentary, IIRC; essentially MS ensures that the system doesn't melt or spew acrid smoke when the driver is invoked and that's about it. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Or had whatever extra code was needed for the microcode mods. Yes, or approached the hardware in a way that made the modifications irrelevant. And how do you write software that will be able to communicate with hardware, irrelevent of what changes have been made to that hardware? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: No - NOT the PC - the hardware that's in question. The Adaptec WITH the modified code. I'm willing to bet, it's not. Should I check for restrictions on chipset temperature, relative humidity, and atmospheric pressure as well? Be realistic Anthony - you know full well that if an item is not listed, its not supported. You know this because you use Windows (NT to be exact) for many, many years. Don't play symantics. Again - I doubt that that perticulare Adaptec WITH the modifide code is listed. Now I'll bet an untouched Adaptec is. Nothing on the list says either way. If' it's not listed - it's not supported - isnt that what MS drills into its user base? The PC is NOT the issue. The modified Adaptec IS. FreeBSD is the target, not the controller. No - not worthless - NOT SUPPORTED. Just like the HCL that MS puts out. There are lots of configurations unsupported by Microsoft that will still run Windows without problems. This isnt the argument - the argument is what I defined it as - and yet again, you want to squirm your way out of it with symantical crap. You simply can't argue the fact one way and have it not work the other. Another thing to understand, most of the HP added code is related to SNMP. That's what HP/Compaq does. Now, you also need to realize that the drivers under NT talk to HAL (Hardware Abstration Layer) which happenes to be far more forgiving of altered code then something under Unix where the driver talks directly to the hardware. Are you saying that Windows NT has a superior design? Stop turning shit around when you get pinned up against a wall. As I mentioned, I presented you with the reality from an MS point of view. You need to realize that you need to retire this whole thread. BTW - as Ted asked, why are you NOT persuing this so rabbidly with Mandrake? Perhaps your a secret agent for Linux? -- Best regards, Chris PGP Fingerprint = D976 2575 D0B4 E4B0 45CC AA09 0F93 FF80 C01B C363 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Is there any way you guys could take this idiotic conversation off-list? It's a complete waste time for the vast majority of us. Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer The University of Texas at Dallas AVIEN Founding Member http://www.utdallas.edu ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 11:09 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: What did they say? MS developers are much like most other developers: it's never their fault. From the way you were complaining, I had the impression that MS was bending backwards to help in issues while the FreeBSD people were immature children. Is this evidence to the contrary, that MS isn't the pinnacle of perfection in dealing with every software issue? Isn't that how many FOSS projects get started...do some task more efficiently and better? FOSS? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOSS http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_refs.html Nope, but it sure makes it a lot simpler! Actually it helps hamper finding bugs that allow it to happen. It depends on how the code is written, but I'll agree that most bloated code is written in great haste, with no attention at all given to the many holes that are opened by all those millions of extra lines of deadwood. Especially in projects driven by money and politics in a workplace, and with looming deadlines. You can do the job to get it shoved out the door or do the job right. In the practical world, you end up shoving it out the door 99% of the time. In a world where you do it as a hobby in spare time, it takes longer, but there's far more leeway to do it right instead of just shoving it out the door. It happens, as with everything else, that there are exceptions but the primary reason for the shoving to happen isn't as great. As has been shown time and time again in Microsoft-sponsored studies comparing Windows to Linux. After removing the power supply and encasing my system in concrete, it is FAR more secure than I've ever dreamt possible, and that was with it running DOS! :-) There's nothing unique about Windows. But more people attack Windows, so more holes are found and exploited. Linux is rapidly catching up. And Mac OS X isn't immune, although I suspect that almost all the holes being found in OS X are in Apple's code, not the base OS. A) No OS is immune, because they are 1) complicated, thus have bugs and 2) are used by people, so stupid social engineering tricks (see anna kournikova nude!) will get idiots to click click on things they shouldn't be click clicking on B) The More popular thus more exploited is a crap argument. Why? Ask the three little pigs. Any twit can build a shelter that is architecturally poor but cheap, so it falls apart or is broken into easily. Notice how quakes can do a LOT more damage in areas where buildings are not built to withstand the tremors, while other places like San Francisco, where people spend huge amounts of money in research and proper implementation, limit the damage a similar quake would inflict? Windows was designed for single user non-network desktops. It was extended to encompass the current network-is-the-rule environment. It's legacy shows. That 30 year old UNIX was better designed for network sharing and multiple users in scant resources. It has since been extended and modified, but the legacy shows. The more popular thus more exploited just means there are more targets available. Spreading a limited-target virus has BEEN DONE; it was targeting a specific vendor's firewall product, and it inflicted a noticeable amount of damage on the Internet in the form of bandwidth stealing and because of the rapid spread of higher-bandwidth connections, the number of targets available isn't quite such a big deal. It only takes a small number to be able to saturate connections and inflict damage. I'd dig out AGAIN the research paper summarizing the attack and it's affects, but I'm sure that the intended audience wouldn't bother reading it anyway. Search for it yourself if you're such a big boy and everyone else is too immature to know about this sort of idea. If apologists would get their heads out of their butts they'd see that it isn't always There's more Windows, thus easier to exploit!, it's Windows' design is inherently less secure, so it's easier to target!, as well as a healthy dose of the average Windows user is more clueless than the average Linux user! thrown in to boot. Many of the features in the recent The Road to Windows Longhorn 2005 article on Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows seems oddly to match many of the features already available on OS X...Hmm, wonder why...could it be because of the security imposed by UNIX under OS X that makes that kind of model a decent tradeoff of usability and security in the first place? If it wasn't such a pain in the butt for Joe Sixpack to use, ideas in EROS would help a helluva lot more on the desktop for security. Security is an inconvenience. Users want mindless interactions. Somewhere it meets in the middle in order to be usable. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: And how do you write software that will be able to communicate with hardware, irrelevent of what changes have been made to that hardware? The hardware and software must agree on a minimum set of standards. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: Be realistic Anthony - you know full well that if an item is not listed, its not supported. But it _is_ listed. And unsupported is not synonymous with doesn't work. If' it's not listed - it's not supported - isnt that what MS drills into its user base? Only if they call for support. Even then, they can still get suggestions, sometimes--but MS won't commit to anything on unsupported hardware. You need to realize that you need to retire this whole thread. BTW - as Ted asked, why are you NOT persuing this so rabbidly with Mandrake? I'm not that interested in running Linux. Linux is for kids. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: I think, correct me if I'm wrong Ted (et al), that he's saying the microcode in the hardware was modified, thus has a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller, and the driver/interface in NT either didn't get the error or was *ignoring* the error, whereas FreeBSD, with a driver/interface based on the generic and marketed version of the controller, was saying HELLO, SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT HERE!, and spewed it to the error logs. That is 100% guesswork. You have no idea why FreeBSD generated the error messages. If you do, then tell me _exactly_ what they mean. It's deduction. If you want someone to pinpoint on the nailhead what is wrong without troubleshooting, go to a psychic. If it's just a matter of all-wise FreeBSD detecting a bug that dopey Windows NT missed, why were there never any problems with data loss or corruption under NT, and why did NT never stall as a result of problems with the disks ... and why didn't NT ever crash? FreeBSD not only spews out error messages that nobody understands or can explain, but it stalls, and sometimes it panics. I'd speculate that there's a difference in the driver, but that would be just more guesswork, and since neither you nor anyone on the list is able/willing to get another system exactly like yours to install it on to rule out hardware failure (you know, *reproducing the bug*?), then I guess you're SOL. That makes it a hardware problem, unless you modify that driver to ignore the error (like NT does) or get rid of the proprietary and/or possibly failing controller in the first place. If it's an error you can ignored, it's not a hardware problem. Really? I have a free program running on my NT machines, ntpdate I believe is the name, that just hammers the registry with requests constantly. I'd never have known it was querying it so much if it wasn't for regmon. *Contant* hits. dunno why, doesn't seem to hurt anything...thus I ignore it. NT doesn't seem to care. Only gets in the way when I'm troubleshooting registry errors. I've already told you I had a scsi bus reset problem what showed up under Linux but not NT several years ago. But you probably ignored that. If it's a failing controller, well, it's been failing for eight years now, and yet it still works. I've had power supply fans that have lasted for years despite making odd noises that are indicative of impending failure. It's not unheard of. Because they modify things so they're *almost* off the shelf, but aren't, perhaps? A lot more than almost, I'm afraid. You said previously with the microcode version that it WAS NOT off-the-shelf. It was an HP-branded firmware. When asked about the HCL, you insisted on the controller, not to my recollection the entire machine as you have it configured on the HCL. Which is it? If it lists the controller generically in the HCL, go get an off-the-shelf controller and put it in so the firmware code ISN'T proprietarily altered then start bitching the list. Among other things they do to introduce glitches? What they introduce is mainly incompatibilities. You have to do everything their way, or not at all. What did you think I meant by glitches? Do you prefer gotchas? If you want to keep insisting on how superior it is, then reinstall it and ignore the warnings. Why is this not an option to consider? Because I'd rather run FreeBSD, if I could just get it to work. That's nice. Some hardware is being a pain. People here either ignore you at this point or tell you to replace that controller and/or disks and see what it takes from there. You refuse and insist people sit down and trace the error for an eight-year-old set of hardware that has proprietary extensions. While they're at it, why don't they get FreeBSD to run on my TiVO. Just need to alter a few drivers here and there... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: If a machine with a gig of memory runs fine under DOS but actually has a bad big of memory hardware near the 512 meg address range, it would probably still run flawlessly for a very very long time... This machine has 384 MB of very expensive RAM, and all of it was used by Windows NT. That's nice. I wasn't talking about NT there. I was talking about DOS. Command line, popular before Windows but after CP/M...maybe you've heard of it? It was a reference to the non-use of extended memory by DOS, so if there was a problem on that computer with the hardware DOS would run just fine on it since it didn't *use* that area of memory, so it would run fine despite there being a problem...? An example of there being a problem with the hardware that the OS wasn't reporting or wasn't aware of? Not that far out of the ballpark for an example here...tap tapthis thing on? But if you swap the hardware with a replacement and it works, how do you explain Windows being broken when that would suggest it was the hardware that was broken? I don't recall ever swapping anything. I have no reason to believe that a hardware failure has occurred. They're trying to help troubleshoot over the list. They ask, what happens when you swap X out? You refuse. Hello? They're trying to rule out other problems. Its' troubleshooting. This list isn't a bunch of slackers with nothing better to do than dive into your problem with debuggers, frothing rabidly at the mouth to prove they can get an eight-year-old frankenserver resurrected to serve Anthony because Anthony taunts them. What's the matter, McFly? Afraid your drive is junk compared to WINDOWS NT? Are you...YELLOW? Why you...oooh!!! Fine! tap tap tap tap tap tap trace here...break...tap tap tap tap You never put it on another identical Vectra to prove it was reproducible. Why does it have to be reproducible on another machine? Did you pass science class? This would show if it's reproducible as a bug. Slap it on the same damn hardware, *right down to the firmware* (remember you have modified firmware?). If it isn't running on two machines that are exactly the same, that shows an increased chance that that is indeed a bug in some driver, and you should contact the driver maintainer. If you have it running on one and not the other, then maybe, just MAYBE, it's a problem with the hardware. It's troubleshooting by eliminating variables. It doesn't work on my machine, and that's sufficient. Bzzt. Wrong. Not if the hardware is going bad or has a problem. See, in our magical and mystical world, we need to be able to reproduce the problem in order to help. Otherwise we have to troubleshoot and speculate. You know, the things you insist we don't need to do. On top of that, you never even commented on the possibility of someone being able to FIX your problem *IF IT IS* a FreeBSD software problem WITHOUT THE DAMN HARDWARE on which to test the fix. Sheeyit! How can I fix something on a configuration that I don't even have? scratches head. Hmm If you can tell me what all the error messages mean, then please do so. If you can't, you're just throwing darts. Wow, how long have you worked in the field as a troubleshooter? Can someone give him some lawn darts to play with? The problem being asserted is that the hardware was tweaked. The firmware microcode. No assertion is worthy of my time unless it is preceded by an explanation of the exact meaning of all the error messages I'm seeing. So...unless everything is handled exactly as you wish it, unrealistic or not, by volunteers no less, it is a waste of your time. You must be management. Really? Windows XP must be broken. I can't install it on my Mac. Swap out the hardware and see if it goes away. See if you can reproduce the problem on another Mac. It's possible that Windows uses the hardware much more efficiently than the Mac OS X, and it doesn't run on your machine simply because you have a hardware failure that OS X couldn't detect. And here I thought it was because it uses a PPC. Oddly enough, removing the motherboard and putting in a PC-based motherboard with an Intel processor makes the problem magically go away...holy frijoles, Batman! But no matter how many Apple motherboards I use, XP just won't install. Maybe it IS the hardware?! Your turn. Pull out that shit controller and set of drives, put in new drives and a new controller that's generic instead of modified, and see if FreeBSD works. Even your misguided sarcasm would lead to the same conclusion! I just said that swapping the motherboard WOULD FIX IT! You'd be insisting I go to Apple and demand that they fix their PowerPC-only OS to run on Intel...(oddly enough, Darwin already does!) Fine. FreeBSD is broken. Reinstall Windows and stop complaining. I'd rather fix FreeBSD. Then fix it. Or pay someone to. Stop
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 11:25 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Duo writes: Does it work on an Apple Friggin IIe? ? Apple IIe? you've never heard of it? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 1:50 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Chris writes: No - NOT the PC - the hardware that's in question. The Adaptec WITH the modified code. I'm willing to bet, it's not. Should I check for restrictions on chipset temperature, relative humidity, and atmospheric pressure as well? Are you really this obtuse or do you just play you are on the Internet? Again - I doubt that that perticulare Adaptec WITH the modifide code is listed. Now I'll bet an untouched Adaptec is. Nothing on the list says either way. I'm sure they're going to list every permutation of code. If it doesn't say, the list is referring to the generic off-the-f'ing-shelf version. The firmware you have ISN'T. You bloody POSTED that in the version output! It's a MODIFIED FIRMWARE. No - not worthless - NOT SUPPORTED. Just like the HCL that MS puts out. There are lots of configurations unsupported by Microsoft that will still run Windows without problems. Very good. And if you take one of them whining about a problem, they point at the list and say, Tough Sh*t. If it works, great. If it doesn't, oh well. It wasn't previously tested and the programmers aren't going to test on every bit of hardware in existence. I mean, DUH. Another thing to understand, most of the HP added code is related to SNMP. That's what HP/Compaq does. Now, you also need to realize that the drivers under NT talk to HAL (Hardware Abstration Layer) which happenes to be far more forgiving of altered code then something under Unix where the driver talks directly to the hardware. Are you saying that Windows NT has a superior design? Yes, that's exactly what he's saying when properly twisted. If superior design consists solely of ignoring problems or ignoring glitches in hardware, then you have a real gem. You should go out and reinstall Windows on that server and leave this list in peace. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: From the way you were complaining, I had the impression that MS was bending backwards to help in issues while the FreeBSD people were immature children. They do a much better job than the FreeBSD project does, no doubt about that. Is this evidence to the contrary, that MS isn't the pinnacle of perfection in dealing with every software issue? No, it's evidence that you never talk to developers when you call the support line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOSS Thanks. Just today I was hoping for some new acronyms, it's been hours since I last encountered one. Especially in projects driven by money and politics in a workplace, and with looming deadlines. Yes, but also in projects with no profit motive at all. Many developers love to write code, but hate to design and test. So they bloat what they write just for their own enjoyment. You can do the job to get it shoved out the door or do the job right. Doing it right often means doing it at a loss. B) The More popular thus more exploited is a crap argument. The statistics seem to support it. Windows was designed for single user non-network desktops. Not Windows NT and its successors. They were designed as network-aware multiuser desktops. They originally had a strong server emphasis, although that has gradually shifted back towards the more profitable desktop, to the detriment of server environments. That 30 year old UNIX was better designed for network sharing and multiple users in scant resources. Yes. Unfortunately it's a poor desktop. If apologists would get their heads out of their butts they'd see that it isn't always There's more Windows, thus easier to exploit!, it's Windows' design is inherently less secure, so it's easier to target!, as well as a healthy dose of the average Windows user is more clueless than the average Linux user! thrown in to boot. It's a bit of all of these, but mostly the number of installed seats and the fact that it's a desktop used by unsophisticated users. Many of the features in the recent The Road to Windows Longhorn 2005 article on Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows seems oddly to match many of the features already available on OS X... Many features of OS X seem oddly to match many of the features already available on Windows. Hmm, wonder why...could it be because of the security imposed by UNIX under OS X that makes that kind of model a decent tradeoff of usability and security in the first place? I have to smile when I hear UNIX held up as an example of a secure system. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, I suppose. Current Windows systems have a much stronger security model than UNIX; it just isn't used, because users wouldn't be happy if they had to deal with it. If it wasn't such a pain in the butt for Joe Sixpack to use, ideas in EROS would help a helluva lot more on the desktop for security. Security is an inconvenience. Users want mindless interactions. Somewhere it meets in the middle in order to be usable. Yes. But this isn't a problem with the OS. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: It's deduction. It can't be. There's nothing to deduct from. Tell me again what those messages said, exactly? Really? I have a free program running on my NT machines, ntpdate I believe is the name, that just hammers the registry with requests constantly. I'd never have known it was querying it so much if it wasn't for regmon. *Contant* hits. dunno why, doesn't seem to hurt anything...thus I ignore it. NT doesn't seem to care. Only gets in the way when I'm troubleshooting registry errors. So where's the problem? I've already told you I had a scsi bus reset problem what showed up under Linux but not NT several years ago. But you probably ignored that. Did someone fix Linux? I've had power supply fans that have lasted for years despite making odd noises that are indicative of impending failure. It's not unheard of. Years without a failure is not impending failure, no matter what noises you hear. Some fans are inherently noisy. That's nice. Some hardware is being a pain. People here either ignore you at this point or tell you to replace that controller and/or disks and see what it takes from there. Yes. But I'm still hoping that someone might provide a truly useful answer sooner or later. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 2:01 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: He is saying that the microcode was modified and that we speculate that the mods contain a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller. What makes it a _bug_? Why would the modified firmware contain a bug ... but not FreeBSD? Um...because it took an adapter that generically had worked, but after modifying it didn't? Christ, I had OS/2 refusing to install on a system because of the *keyboard* I had connected once. He doesen't want to run Windows (on this system at least) Correct. It's a more or less spare system and I'm more interesting in getting more experience with UNIX than with getting more experience with Windows. I already know plenty about Windows. I have an old 68k mac laying here...think I can install AmigaDOS on it? no? Maybe because it just wasn't meant to be...that machine just won't take that OS! Try the OS on other hardware, replace the hardware giving trouble, or go back to Windows and stop whining. I and others on the list have suggested numerous times things like self-contained Live-CD's of Linux/FreeBSD, or USB-bootable versions, or talking to the actual developers instead of a USER MAILING LIST (Not DEVELOPER), or swapping the controller out and get matching drives to test against, or even paying someone to fix it with your hardware to test on, or just going back to windows so you can ignore the problem in the first place, and every damn time you poo poo it and continue whining about the group not diving into your eight-year-old frankenserver to fix your specific problem on a modified firmware controller. As far as this list is concerned, it's not gonna happen. You pretend to be so dense that the possibility of a difference between a modded firmware and a generic firmware could not POSSIBLY cause problems as far as you're concerned. I've seen Linux report errors with drives that NT didn't. I've seen printers that wouldn't install under our network until the firmware was updated. But you blindly push forward, bitching on a VOLUNTEER USER list that you demand someone here yank out the debugger and rewrite the driver to work with your brain-dead controller with dissimilar drives hooked up. Aren't you the same person that said MS changed features specifically at your request, but you didn't remember what they were? If so, you never did answer me on how you could have forgotten what that feature was. In any case, this wonderfully fun experience is pushing me more and more in the direction of home-built hardware, and further and further away from brand-name machines. holy craphow long has it taken you to realize that HP/Compaq routinely do odd proprietary crap to their hardware? you didn't know what the Apple IIe is? You couldn't figure out why someone would suggest testing a problem on another bit of identical hardware to isolate if it was a hardware problem or a software problem? How long have you been a sysadmin? I'm glad I decided to build my own server instead of buying that IBM eSeries machine. Who knows what problems I might have had with it? Depends. Get the multithousand dollar support contract with them, run exactly what they tell you to run, and you'll be happy with the support they would give. If you want to start f*'ing around with what's installed and doing custom configurations, you won't be happy. how long have you been doing this, anyway? Unfortunately, Anthony won't do the least bit of troubleshooting (such as pulling the Quantum disk and just running on the Seagate disk in this system to see if perhaps the problem is execerbated by one or the other implementations of SCSI in one or the other of the disks - granted that is a long shot, but it's within the realm of possibility it might fix it) so I doubt he would do anything that the ahc driver (who most likely isn't even subscribed to freebsd-questions) tells him to do in the way of troubleshooting either. Anything isn't going to do anything until someone can tell him what the existing messages are saying. I don't go pulling boards every time I see a message that I don't recognize. I heard a similar type of argument from a five year old. Do it my way, I wanna know where we're going first or I'm going to sit on the floor and scream until I get my way... But remember, List Subscribers, YOU'RE the immature ones. Also long forgotten in this discussion is Anthony stated once on this list that Mandrake Linux wouldn't even install on this Vectra system either. It stops after the splash screen, but I think that is related to the same problem that prevents FreeBSD from booting directly from disk. Hmm... I've had several machines where distro X wouldn't work but Distro Y did. But by your logic, this isn't possible, right? I am not sure why he's trying to hold FreeBSD up to the driver support of Windows NT when Linux won't even talk to the card in his system. I don't know
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: That's nice. I wasn't talking about NT there. I was talking about DOS. I'm not running anything named DOS. Command line, popular before Windows but after CP/M...maybe you've heard of it? I used to run a few operating systems by that name. They're trying to help troubleshoot over the list. Why don't they just suggest that I move to another city, in case there's RF interference in my neighborhood. That's troubleshooting, too, but like swapping hardware, it's not very practical, and you don't start with the impractical methods if you have no idea what's wrong. Did you pass science class? This would show if it's reproducible as a bug. Nobody even knows what the messages mean. Without knowing that, what use is it to try to reproduce it on another machine? Slap it on the same damn hardware, *right down to the firmware* (remember you have modified firmware?). If it isn't running on two machines that are exactly the same, that shows an increased chance that that is indeed a bug in some driver, and you should contact the driver maintainer. What if the messages don't represent an error? It's troubleshooting by eliminating variables. It's rolling dice unless you first determine what the messages mean. Bzzt. Wrong. Not if the hardware is going bad or has a problem. There's no reason to believe that the hardware is going bad. See, in our magical and mystical world, we need to be able to reproduce the problem in order to help. How do you know it's a problem? You don't know what the messages mean. Otherwise we have to troubleshoot and speculate. All anyone has done thus far is guess. You know, the things you insist we don't need to do. On top of that, you never even commented on the possibility of someone being able to FIX your problem *IF IT IS* a FreeBSD software problem WITHOUT THE DAMN HARDWARE on which to test the fix. Sheeyit! How can I fix something on a configuration that I don't even have? By examining and modifying the code. Developers do it all the time. Wow, how long have you worked in the field as a troubleshooter? I spent a number of years in that capacity. So...unless everything is handled exactly as you wish it, unrealistic or not, by volunteers no less, it is a waste of your time. No, unless people follow a logical course of action to isolate the problem, if there is one, then they waste my time. And here I thought it was because it uses a PPC. My computer uses Intel hardware, but FreeBSD seems to have a problem with it. Your turn. Pull out that shit controller and set of drives, put in new drives and a new controller that's generic instead of modified, and see if FreeBSD works. Tell me what the messages mean, first. Then fix it. Or pay someone to. I don't have the time to examine the source. In the length of time you've spend insulting people on this list you could have swapped out the drives and controller and probably have things working already. Hmm. It did, it used an IR interface to do the transfer...hence the note *right in my question* about the IR interface. NT wouldn't allow the access to video that their program used to transfer data to the watch. How does an IR interface work with visible light? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: Apple IIe? you've never heard of it? I used to use one. I've never heard of the Friggin variant, though. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: If it doesn't say, the list is referring to the generic off-the-f'ing-shelf version. I _have_ the generic, off-the-shelf version of this PC. Very good. And if you take one of them whining about a problem, they point at the list and say, Tough Sh*t. No, they don't. They point out that they can't support your configuration. Sometimes they offer suggestions, anyway, sometimes they don't. They just aren't _obligated_ to provide any support. Yes, that's exactly what he's saying when properly twisted. Even without twisting, that seemed to be the clear meaning. If superior design consists solely of ignoring problems or ignoring glitches in hardware, then you have a real gem. No, I was referring to the additional modularity and stability made possible by the additional abstraction of a HAL. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Are you really this obtuse or do you just play you are on the Internet? You are dealing with someone who feels he is more right than anyone else in the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD. He drops his so called credentials (ive been in the biz for (fill in the years) I worked on mainframes, blah blah blah... Bottom line is, this guy is a massive tool. To be honest, I am beginning to think he is someones sock puppet. (I think we might all have a fair idea of who I am talking about). Anyway, I think we should all do ourselves a favor, and kill this thread. I know it will be hard, Anthony will try really hard to say something even stupider, in a vain attempt to make us want to reply...but, there are a plethora of other things we could ask on this list, which are more appropriate. I get alot from this list, in terms of interesting problems, and fixes, and general advice. Anthony drives down the signal to noise ratio. Let's just all collectively ignore the sock puppet, and the arm its connected to. I really would like to stick to filtering people, and not whole threads. Indeed, I shouldnt have to. Nobody should have to. Let's end it, for the children! So, in closing, Andrew, if you want to know what to do, search the list for your threads, you have been given elevendy billion options on how to solve the issue, and how to move forward. Nobody gives one slap or tickle whether you feel you should, or shouldnt have to remove hardware to troubleshoot. If you dont want to do that, it just shows the rest of the world, what a halfassed troubleshooter you are. It says Zero about us. your credentials, what you have done, etc do not amount to a hill of beans, when you wont follow basic isolation logic. If you cannot, or will not follow time tested, standard troubleshooting techniques, used the world over to try and eliminate the issue, and you wont email the devs directly with output, logs, etc, and you dont want to dive into the code, than I would retort that it is NOT freeBSD that is defective. It is YOU who are defective. Another half assed luser, who seems to think the list works for you. Well, you do not sign the paychecks of anyone here, I wager. You certainly dont sign mine. By and large, if you feel its flawed, because you don't want to actually use proper methodology, and you want people to telepathically diagnose your issue, you are in for quite a rude awakening. Please, by all means, piss right off, because, as I see it, you have done nothing but pissed off some of the most patient people I have seen on a list. Sorry Bart, didnt mean to steal thunder. =) -- Duo Although the Buddhists will tell you that desire is the root of suffering, my personal experience leads me to point the finger at system administration. --Philip Greenspun ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 29, 2005, at 4:03 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: It's deduction. It can't be. There's nothing to deduct from. Your description of the problem. Tell me again what those messages said, exactly? Can't. I didn't tell you the first time. Really? I have a free program running on my NT machines, ntpdate I believe is the name, that just hammers the registry with requests constantly. I'd never have known it was querying it so much if it wasn't for regmon. *Contant* hits. dunno why, doesn't seem to hurt anything...thus I ignore it. NT doesn't seem to care. Only gets in the way when I'm troubleshooting registry errors. So where's the problem? No one could be this dense without some psychological problem. It shouldn't be hammering the registry. It is. The system doesn't seem to care, doesn't report any problem. I only saw it because of another diagnostic program. Maybe in some cases, hardware gives diagnostic codes or errors that the OS doesn't deem important enough to share. NT errs to the side of silence. That's what my other examples were about. I've already told you I had a scsi bus reset problem what showed up under Linux but not NT several years ago. But you probably ignored that. Did someone fix Linux? No, the user swapped the hard drive. This is a tough concept for you to wrap your head around, isn't it? I've had power supply fans that have lasted for years despite making odd noises that are indicative of impending failure. It's not unheard of. Years without a failure is not impending failure, no matter what noises you hear. Some fans are inherently noisy. Funny how this one had a bad bearing in it, and an identical power supply (see, there's that funny comparison to identical hardware thing for troubleshooting...you might have heard of this technique...) did NOT make this noise. It was a bad bearing. Replacing the power supply made Mr. Weird Noise go away. That's nice. Some hardware is being a pain. People here either ignore you at this point or tell you to replace that controller and/or disks and see what it takes from there. Yes. But I'm still hoping that someone might provide a truly useful answer sooner or later. They did! Replace the controller with a generic one and get matching drives, replace the OS with NT again, or get another computer to test it on. All are useful answers. All of them would most likely work. Some hopeful people still naively think that suggesting things like filing a PR with the actual developers or suggesting fixes from their own experience would be enough for you to try for fixes...HA HA! Silly rational people. Ted, you need to shut up. Stop trying to help him. And you too, whoever keeps raising your hand with the PR filing idea. We were all idiots for thinking Anthony would be rational. We'll leave him to sit and stare at his broken server and contemplate the source code for the hidden meaning of the archaic error. Most of us simply replace the error-generating parts and move on...but he hangs tenaciously to the bad proprietary firmware, and demands an unreasonable diving into the source code on a user-run list and tells everyone who offers some form of advice or experience that they're immature children for not fixing his eight-year-old Vectra. Just shut up. Everyone shut the hell up. It's not worth it, because after the constant back and forth, the claim that he had MS do something for him but he doesn't remember what, the re-iteration that NT is superior superior superior, the huh? to a reference to a IIe, the Linux is for kids statement,... it's is so abundantly clear that the assertion is made of GLASS that this guy must be insane. Insane! He's here just to stir up trouble! Hee Hee! That's it. It has to be. GO REINSTALL NT AND BE HAPPY WITH YOURSELF. Leave the volunteer user list alone. Begone, daemons, I hereby remove you from my rc.d directory! You are a hopeless case! hopeless. You insult the very people you demand help you and wonder why they want you to jump in a lake!? Unless you're actually an AIis that it? Purely existing on mailservers and routers? Some formless, shapeless AI? Otherwise, you're just a troll or wackjob stirring up trouble for fun. Begone! Do not come again unless you bear proof you have submitted your problem as an actual PR, or proof thou hast spoken to actual developers on the project for help! Everyone else...S.he'll go away if he thinks we're not home anymore...tee hee... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: Um...because it took an adapter that generically had worked, but after modifying it didn't? It was referenced by an OS that generically worked, but then did not after the modification of the adapter. Note that it has not been established that any particularity of the adapter firmware is at the root of this problem. The meaning and cause of the messages and behavior I'm seeing remain unknown. I have an old 68k mac laying here...think I can install AmigaDOS on it? I don't believe so, but it has been a long time. I and others on the list have suggested numerous times things like self-contained Live-CD's of Linux/FreeBSD, or USB-bootable versions, or talking to the actual developers instead of a USER MAILING LIST (Not DEVELOPER), or swapping the controller out and get matching drives to test against, or even paying someone to fix it with your hardware to test on, or just going back to windows so you can ignore the problem in the first place ... The one thing you have not done is explain the meaning of the messages I've seen. As far as this list is concerned, it's not gonna happen. I'm not optimistic, but one never knows. I've seen Linux report errors with drives that NT didn't. So? Aren't you the same person that said MS changed features specifically at your request, but you didn't remember what they were? Yes. If so, you never did answer me on how you could have forgotten what that feature was. It was quite some time ago. Much water has passed beneath the bridge. ...how long has it taken you to realize that HP/Compaq routinely do odd proprietary crap to their hardware? I've known it for years, but my evaluation of the pros and cons continues to evolve. you didn't know what the Apple IIe is? Yes, I did. You couldn't figure out why someone would suggest testing a problem on another bit of identical hardware to isolate if it was a hardware problem or a software problem? Someone might suggest that in order to seem knowledgeable, rather than admit that he has no clue as to the source of the problem. How long have you been a sysadmin? Overall I have a fair number of years of experience in that capacity. Currently I only administer my own systems. Get the multithousand dollar support contract with them, run exactly what they tell you to run, and you'll be happy with the support they would give. I don't think they'd approve of FreeBSD. how long have you been doing this, anyway? A couple of decades. I heard a similar type of argument from a five year old. Small children have a way of getting straight to the point that their elders might sometimes do well to emulate. I've had several machines where distro X wouldn't work but Distro Y did. But by your logic, this isn't possible, right? I haven't tried any other distributions. I don't know the source of the boot problem, so it's hard to say. You're right. You're getting much farther by insulting people and being obstinate when given suggestions. Apply that same logic consistently, and you'll see the source of my frustration. What a dichotomy to your insults of FreeBSD developers. Dichotomy? You mean, it could be buggy or have problems that are ignored, but it still works anyway and gets the MS stamp? Yes. But, how could this be? The certification tests are not exhaustive. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: If it doesn't say, the list is referring to the generic off-the-f'ing-shelf version. I _have_ the generic, off-the-shelf version of this PC. Very good. And if you take one of them whining about a problem, they point at the list and say, Tough Sh*t. No, they don't. They point out that they can't support your configuration. Sometimes they offer suggestions, anyway, sometimes they don't. They just aren't _obligated_ to provide any support. BINGO! Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner! Read what you just said... Read it again. One more time. Do you even understand what you said? -- Best regards, Chris PGP Fingerprint = D976 2575 D0B4 E4B0 45CC AA09 0F93 FF80 C01B C363 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: If it doesn't say, the list is referring to the generic off-the-f'ing-shelf version. I _have_ the generic, off-the-shelf version of this PC. Very good. And if you take one of them whining about a problem, they point at the list and say, Tough Sh*t. No, they don't. They point out that they can't support your configuration. Sometimes they offer suggestions, anyway, sometimes they don't. They just aren't _obligated_ to provide any support. Allow me to define what you just said - You, Andthony have a Vectra. It has a normal Adaptec controller. It has modified code in the Adaptec. S - Guess what (See me pointing this out) FBSD may NOT support an Adaptec card that has HP code inserted in it.. Let's offer you suggestions - get a vanilla Adaptec? Ok, now some of us won't offer you help. Oh, BTW - we're not obligated to help you, nor re write a driver. Sorry - You are now on your own. This ends this thread! -- Best regards, Chris PGP Fingerprint = D976 2575 D0B4 E4B0 45CC AA09 0F93 FF80 C01B C363 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: Your description of the problem. My description of the problem is very sparse, and even I did not reach those conclusions. It shouldn't be hammering the registry. It is. The system doesn't seem to care, doesn't report any problem. So why is it a problem? I only saw it because of another diagnostic program. So it obviously wasn't interfering with the functioning of the system. Maybe in some cases, hardware gives diagnostic codes or errors that the OS doesn't deem important enough to share. NT errs to the side of silence. Is that good or bad? Funny how this one had a bad bearing in it ... It couldn't have been that bad, if it ran for years. It was a bad bearing. Replacing the power supply made Mr. Weird Noise go away. Did the fan ever fail? They did! No, they did not. I still don't know what the messages mean. Just shut up. Everyone shut the hell up. Your post is nearly ten thousand characters long. Everyone else...S... Everyone else has already done that. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Can you guys please take this discussion off line. Thanks! --Nick ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On 29 Mar Bart Silverstrim wrote: You should go out and reinstall Windows on that server and leave this list in peace. He won't do that. I told this weeks ago. He comes off on this shit he writes. You won't win this game. Why? 'Cause all of you use arguments and Anthony simply is /not/ He talks sh*t, knows it and will keep on talking sh*t. No matter what you do or say. Let's leave him. Won't do any harm if left alone. For the record everything has been said. So, why not silence him. Let him be happy. Leave him alone. -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 4.11 ++ FreeBSD 5.3 + Nai tiruvantel ar vayuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilja ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On 29 Mar Bart Silverstrim wrote: You should go out and reinstall Windows on that server and leave this list in peace. He won't do that. I told this weeks ago. He comes off on this shit he writes. You won't win this game. Why? 'Cause all of you use arguments and Anthony simply is /not/ He talks sh*t, knows it and will keep on talking sh*t. No matter what you do or say. Let's leave him. Won't do any harm if left alone. For the record everything has been said. So, why not silence him. Let him be happy. Leave him alone. Mostly true.But, in the more recent posts he seems to be doing less name calling and paying a small amount more attention to technical information.So, who knows - some people just take a long time to grow up. Generally the adult community just puts up with infants during those years like the terrible two-s believing against all current evidence they will grow out of it. So, maybe that will happen here in this case too. Anyway, I have found the letter 'd' to be a quite convenient way to manage the situation. Deleting almost all of the posts in those threads and only looking in to one every couple of days makes it a lot easier to handle. jerry -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 4.11 ++ FreeBSD 5.3 + Nai tiruvantel ar vayuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilja ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
More supurb technical analysis from that wiz, Jerry. Nicely done! You know if you guys spent half the time debugging code as you spend cutting down people who've found stuff that doesn't work there might not be a reason to complain. Too bad all of the real developers are off scratching their heads as to why the damn slab allocator is so dreadfully slow. -Original Message- From: Jerry McAllister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dick Hoogendijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: freebsd-questions freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sent: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:50:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay On 29 Mar Bart Silverstrim wrote: You should go out and reinstall Windows on that server and leave this list in peace. He won't do that. I told this weeks ago. He comes off on this shit he writes. You won't win this game. Why? 'Cause all of you use arguments and Anthony simply is /not/ He talks sh*t, knows it and will keep on talking sh*t. No matter what you do or say. Let's leave him. Won't do any harm if left alone. For the record everything has been said. So, why not silence him. Let him be happy. Leave him alone. Mostly true.But, in the more recent posts he seems to be doing less name calling and paying a small amount more attention to technical information.So, who knows - some people just take a long time to grow up. Generally the adult community just puts up with infants during those years like the terrible two-s believing against all current evidence they will grow out of it. So, maybe that will happen here in this case too. Anyway, I have found the letter 'd' to be a quite convenient way to manage the situation. Deleting almost all of the posts in those threads and only looking in to one every couple of days makes it a lot easier to handle. jerry -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 4.11 ++ FreeBSD 5.3 + Nai tiruvantel ar vayuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilja ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
More supurb technical analysis from that wiz, Jerry. Nicely done! Glad you appreciated it. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Duo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Anyway, I think we should all do ourselves a favor, and kill this thread. I know it will be hard, Anthony will try really hard to say something even stupider, in a vain attempt to make us want to reply...but, there are a plethora of other things we could ask on this list, which are more appropriate. I get alot from this list, in terms of interesting problems, and fixes, and general advice. Anthony drives down the signal to noise ratio. Let's just all collectively ignore the sock puppet, and the arm its connected to. I really would like to stick to filtering people, and not whole threads. Indeed, I shouldnt have to. Nobody should have to. Let's end it, for the children! If not for the children then please end it for those of us who receive the list in digest form. This seemingly endless Anthony Atkielski soap opera is excruciating to have to wade through! At this point it's just the same old same old being repeated ad nauseum. :-( Have mercy on us! :-) Cheers, Paul. -- e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid. --- Frank Vincent Zappa ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 22:16 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Martin McCann writes: And how do you write software that will be able to communicate with hardware, irrelevent of what changes have been made to that hardware? The hardware and software must agree on a minimum set of standards. That is how standards work, and when a piece of hardware goes beyond those standards either through design or mis-implementation, who is to blame? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
I'm not that interested in running Linux. Linux is for kids. This pretty much sums up your attitute. Most people on this list use the right tool for the right job, they are not interested in labeling a piece of code for 'adults' or for 'children'. I am sure IBM, SUN, and plently of other highly profitable companies would disagree with your assertion, but they are probably wrong too, hmmm? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 23:00 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: From the way you were complaining, I had the impression that MS was bending backwards to help in issues while the FreeBSD people were immature children. They do a much better job than the FreeBSD project does, no doubt about that. then stop complaining to a list of 'kiddies', and use that. Is this evidence to the contrary, that MS isn't the pinnacle of perfection in dealing with every software issue? No, it's evidence that you never talk to developers when you call the support line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOSS Thanks. Just today I was hoping for some new acronyms, it's been hours since I last encountered one. If you have never encountered the term FLOSS, you are not the open source user you claim to be, it is a common term. Especially in projects driven by money and politics in a workplace, and with looming deadlines. Yes, but also in projects with no profit motive at all. Many developers love to write code, but hate to design and test. So they bloat what they write just for their own enjoyment. You can do the job to get it shoved out the door or do the job right. Doing it right often means doing it at a loss. And what open source developer does anything but 'doing it at a loss'?. B) The More popular thus more exploited is a crap argument. The statistics seem to support it. Statistics will prove whatever you want it to prove, most people with intelligence look beyond the given conclusion, and make their own. Windows was designed for single user non-network desktops. Not Windows NT and its successors. They were designed as network-aware multiuser desktops. They originally had a strong server emphasis, although that has gradually shifted back towards the more profitable desktop, to the detriment of server environments. That 30 year old UNIX was better designed for network sharing and multiple users in scant resources. Yes. Unfortunately it's a poor desktop. Depends on what you want as a desktop - desktop != WIMP. If apologists would get their heads out of their butts they'd see that it isn't always There's more Windows, thus easier to exploit!, it's Windows' design is inherently less secure, so it's easier to target!, as well as a healthy dose of the average Windows user is more clueless than the average Linux user! thrown in to boot. It's a bit of all of these, but mostly the number of installed seats and the fact that it's a desktop used by unsophisticated users. Many of the features in the recent The Road to Windows Longhorn 2005 article on Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows seems oddly to match many of the features already available on OS X... Many features of OS X seem oddly to match many of the features already available on Windows. Alternatively, many of the features of windows seem to match those of already available software. Hmm, wonder why...could it be because of the security imposed by UNIX under OS X that makes that kind of model a decent tradeoff of usability and security in the first place? I have to smile when I hear UNIX held up as an example of a secure system. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, I suppose. Current Windows systems have a much stronger security model than UNIX; it just isn't used, because users wouldn't be happy if they had to deal with it. So what defines a secure system, if not the fact it is less prone breakens? If it wasn't such a pain in the butt for Joe Sixpack to use, ideas in EROS would help a helluva lot more on the desktop for security. Security is an inconvenience. Users want mindless interactions. Somewhere it meets in the middle in order to be usable. Yes. But this isn't a problem with the OS. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 23:03 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: It's deduction. It can't be. There's nothing to deduct from. Exactly, because you have time and time again refused to put any effort into deducing anything. It, as you have said, is the fault of the people who subscribe to this list. You seem to disregard the fact that you, as a subscriber to this list, are as much as part of it as anyone else. Every derogatory comment you make to this list, you aim towards yourself, you are no more or less a part of this list than anyone else. Tell me again what those messages said, exactly? Really? I have a free program running on my NT machines, ntpdate I believe is the name, that just hammers the registry with requests constantly. I'd never have known it was querying it so much if it wasn't for regmon. *Contant* hits. dunno why, doesn't seem to hurt anything...thus I ignore it. NT doesn't seem to care. Only gets in the way when I'm troubleshooting registry errors. So where's the problem? I've already told you I had a scsi bus reset problem what showed up under Linux but not NT several years ago. But you probably ignored that. Did someone fix Linux? I've had power supply fans that have lasted for years despite making odd noises that are indicative of impending failure. It's not unheard of. Years without a failure is not impending failure, no matter what noises you hear. Some fans are inherently noisy. That's nice. Some hardware is being a pain. People here either ignore you at this point or tell you to replace that controller and/or disks and see what it takes from there. Yes. But I'm still hoping that someone might provide a truly useful answer sooner or later. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 23:13 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: That's nice. I wasn't talking about NT there. I was talking about DOS. I'm not running anything named DOS. Command line, popular before Windows but after CP/M...maybe you've heard of it? I used to run a few operating systems by that name. They're trying to help troubleshoot over the list. Why don't they just suggest that I move to another city, in case there's RF interference in my neighborhood. That's troubleshooting, too, but like swapping hardware, it's not very practical, and you don't start with the impractical methods if you have no idea what's wrong. So, you start by demanding your individual problem is resoloved by a list who has no responsibility to the upkeep of the software that has given you issue? Did you pass science class? This would show if it's reproducible as a bug. Nobody even knows what the messages mean. Without knowing that, what use is it to try to reproduce it on another machine? You have repeated this time and time again. No-one is argueing with you. I think it is safe to assume no-one knows excactly what the message is about. Many people have tried to help by applying their high level of knowledge to the situation, which you have lambasted. Accept that no-one on this list knows, and move on. Slap it on the same damn hardware, *right down to the firmware* (remember you have modified firmware?). If it isn't running on two machines that are exactly the same, that shows an increased chance that that is indeed a bug in some driver, and you should contact the driver maintainer. What if the messages don't represent an error? As you have said, no-one here knows, move on. It's troubleshooting by eliminating variables. It's rolling dice unless you first determine what the messages mean. As you have said, no-one here knows, move on. Bzzt. Wrong. Not if the hardware is going bad or has a problem. There's no reason to believe that the hardware is going bad. There is reason to belive it. It doesn't mean that it is going bad, but it shows that there is reaseon to suspect that it could be going bad. See, in our magical and mystical world, we need to be able to reproduce the problem in order to help. How do you know it's a problem? You don't know what the messages mean. Otherwise we have to troubleshoot and speculate. All anyone has done thus far is guess. Yes, tried their best. No-one knows, if people trying to help you to the best of their knowledge isn't good enough for you, pay someone, then you can shout at them as much as you like. You know, the things you insist we don't need to do. On top of that, you never even commented on the possibility of someone being able to FIX your problem *IF IT IS* a FreeBSD software problem WITHOUT THE DAMN HARDWARE on which to test the fix. Sheeyit! How can I fix something on a configuration that I don't even have? By examining and modifying the code. Developers do it all the time. Wow, how long have you worked in the field as a troubleshooter? I spent a number of years in that capacity. Sad to say you are probably right. Most people I work with in the I.T. field know the score, that not everything works as documented all the time. Some though, will waste weeks and months lamenting the fact that it doesn't rather than moving on. Consider if you will the impression you might give to a future employer who does a google search on your name. So...unless everything is handled exactly as you wish it, unrealistic or not, by volunteers no less, it is a waste of your time. No, unless people follow a logical course of action to isolate the problem, if there is one, then they waste my time. Hah. You are following a logical caouse of action? You have spend more time critising this list, and boasting about your own merits, that you have trying to resolve this issue. And here I thought it was because it uses a PPC. My computer uses Intel hardware, but FreeBSD seems to have a problem with it. So it is now intel hardware causing the problem? Pleas repeat what the error is coming from. Your turn. Pull out that shit controller and set of drives, put in new drives and a new controller that's generic instead of modified, and see if FreeBSD works. Tell me what the messages mean, first. As you have said, no-one here knows, move on. Then fix it. Or pay someone to. I don't have the time to examine the source. Then move on, and stop throwing a tantrum. In the length of time you've spend insulting people on this list you could have swapped out the drives and controller and probably have things working already. Hmm. Exactly. It did, it used an IR interface to do the transfer...hence the note *right in my question* about the IR interface. NT wouldn't allow the access to video that their
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
No, I was referring to the additional modularity and stability made possible by the additional abstraction of a HAL. Please explain this to me - I have had a lot of experience in OS design, and would like you, who obviously from you remarks, have extensive OS design knowledge, point out to me how a HAL makes an OS inherintly more stable than a system that writes its drivers for a particular peice of hardware, without pretence it will cope with differetn pieces of hardware? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Tue, 2005-03-29 at 23:25 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Bart Silverstrim writes: Um...because it took an adapter that generically had worked, but after modifying it didn't? It was referenced by an OS that generically worked, but then did not after the modification of the adapter. So what are you saying? Origional, it worked with NT, but then didn't with FreeBSD. NOW you are saying, it working with 'OS' before update, now doesn't work with 'OS', after update. So, I have to assume you had the same OS at this point, which makes your whole arguement a lie. I have an old 68k mac laying here...think I can install AmigaDOS on it? I don't believe so, but it has been a long time. Conjecutre? I thought we didn't do conjecture Why the hell do you not know? what the fuck are you doing on this list if you do not know You must know everything!!! I have a problem and I demand that you solve it! Right fucking know, or I will take up every thread in you goddamn list with my tantrum until you do! Note that it has not been established that any particularity of the adapter firmware is at the root of this problem. The meaning and cause of the messages and behavior I'm seeing remain unknown. I and others on the list have suggested numerous times things like self-contained Live-CD's of Linux/FreeBSD, or USB-bootable versions, or talking to the actual developers instead of a USER MAILING LIST (Not DEVELOPER), or swapping the controller out and get matching drives to test against, or even paying someone to fix it with your hardware to test on, or just going back to windows so you can ignore the problem in the first place ... The one thing you have not done is explain the meaning of the messages I've seen. As far as this list is concerned, it's not gonna happen. I'm not optimistic, but one never knows. Aren't you the same person that said MS changed features specifically at your request, but you didn't remember what they were? Yes. Convienient. If so, you never did answer me on how you could have forgotten what that feature was. It was quite some time ago. Much water has passed beneath the bridge. I doubt many people here would request a feature for MS, have it granted, then forget what that feature was. Smackes of a lie if you ask me. You couldn't figure out why someone would suggest testing a problem on another bit of identical hardware to isolate if it was a hardware problem or a software problem? Someone might suggest that in order to seem knowledgeable, rather than admit that he has no clue as to the source of the problem. Or it could to try to be helpful, rather than saying, don't know, go away. But no, you have to take the cynical route, and believe it is a fault, rather than a virtue, which makes them do this. Says more about you than it does them. How long have you been a sysadmin? Overall I have a fair number of years of experience in that capacity. Currently I only administer my own systems. Well, you are showing many user traits, and not many sys admin traits. User = I don't like this, you must fix this. Sys admin = This is crap, how can we fix this. Get the multithousand dollar support contract with them, run exactly what they tell you to run, and you'll be happy with the support they would give. I don't think they'd approve of FreeBSD. Then don't use it, don't whine to this list about it. how long have you been doing this, anyway? A couple of decades. Maybe past your prime? I heard a similar type of argument from a five year old. Small children have a way of getting straight to the point that their elders might sometimes do well to emulate. Ah, so all those comments about this list being full of children was a compliment. Why thank-you. I've had several machines where distro X wouldn't work but Distro Y did. But by your logic, this isn't possible, right? I haven't tried any other distributions. I don't know the source of the boot problem, so it's hard to say. Perhaps some flaming is in need then? You're right. You're getting much farther by insulting people and being obstinate when given suggestions. Apply that same logic consistently, and you'll see the source of my frustration. Hah! You claim logic. Read back on your past posts. What a dichotomy to your insults of FreeBSD developers. Dichotomy? Why does a man of your decades of experience have to ask a FreeBSD mailing list the meaning of a common english word? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dichotomy You mean, it could be buggy or have problems that are ignored, but it still works anyway and gets the MS stamp? Yes. But, how could this be? The certification tests are not exhaustive. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe,
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
In a final effort to resolve this issue - It is widely agreed that anthony's issue lies in a custom chipset for his hardware. It is widely agreed that anthony is not willing to put any effort into trying to verify this. If is widely belivied that the person who could answer these queries conculsively is not on this list. It is widely belived that anthony is more interested in arguing his point (in fact, any point) than he is in resolving his issues. Therefore, in order to keep this list a sane and useful resource, I would suggest that if anyone feels like answering anthonys queries, they do it to his personal email address, so the rest of us might get on with other issues, and not scare new comers away with this bad blood (I am aware I have sent a fair few comments on this threat, and the more I did, the more I realised the futility of it). I'm here to learn about FreeBSD, not to hear about how many decades of experience Anthony has, nor what he thinks of others on this list, and certainly not an endless stream of his rants about his crappy hardware. Hoping to get back to a sane list soon, Martin ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: That is how standards work, and when a piece of hardware goes beyond those standards either through design or mis-implementation, who is to blame? The hardware designer. But it has not been established that that is happening here. Perhaps the hardware is not adhering to a standard--or perhaps FreeBSD is not adhering to a standard. Since nobody knows what the messages mean, there's no way to say. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: This pretty much sums up your attitute. Most people on this list use the right tool for the right job, they are not interested in labeling a piece of code for 'adults' or for 'children'. The same is true for me. But there isn't anything I want or need to do right now that would not be done better by FreeBSD than by Linux. To paraphrase what some people have said in the past, Linux is an attempt by PC enthusiasts to make UNIX look like a PC, whereas the BSDs are an attempt by UNIX enthusiasts to make a PC look like UNIX. Most of what I'm interested in running right now is intended for a UNIX environment, so FreeBSD is a better tool for the job. The overwhelming concern of the Linux community seems to be to create something that walks and talks just like Windows, but isn't called Windows. I don't see any point in that, since real Windows does a better job if Windows is what one wants. I am sure IBM, SUN, and plently of other highly profitable companies would disagree with your assertion, but they are probably wrong too, hmmm? They are driven by profit motivations, not by a desire to use the right tool for the right job. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: then stop complaining to a list of 'kiddies', and use that. MS doesn't support FreeBSD. If you have never encountered the term FLOSS, you are not the open source user you claim to be, it is a common term. I've probably encountered it, I just didn't retain it. The IT world is full of acronyms. And what open source developer does anything but 'doing it at a loss'?. Very few, which is one reason why open source is not a serious competitor to proprietary software in many cases. Statistics will prove whatever you want it to prove, most people with intelligence look beyond the given conclusion, and make their own. If you don't look at statistics to draw your conclusions, what do you look at? Depends on what you want as a desktop - desktop != WIMP. Most people want a GUI on the desktop, and UNIX isn't designed for that. There are fundamental conflicts between the design requirements of a desktop and those of a server. One cannot do both well. Alternatively, many of the features of windows seem to match those of already available software. And so on, and so on. GUIs on the desktop predate the Mac and Windows interfaces by many years. So what defines a secure system, if not the fact it is less prone breakens? The NCSC criteria are a good start. Windows NT and its successors satisfy more of them than UNIX. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: So, you start by demanding your individual problem is resoloved by a list who has no responsibility to the upkeep of the software that has given you issue? I haven't demanded anything, I've simply asked. You have repeated this time and time again. No-one is argueing with you. I think it is safe to assume no-one knows excactly what the message is about. Then why is guessing about the rest an accept method of troubleshooting? Many people have tried to help by applying their high level of knowledge to the situation, which you have lambasted. If they had a high level of knowledge, they would know what the messages meant. There is reason to belive it. No, there is not. In order to have a reason to believe it, one would have to know what the messages meant, and nobody knows that. An outpouring of messages does not necessarily indicate a hardware malfunction. Consider if you will the impression you might give to a future employer who does a google search on your name. I have. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: Please explain this to me - I have had a lot of experience in OS design, and would like you, who obviously from you remarks, have extensive OS design knowledge, point out to me how a HAL makes an OS inherintly more stable than a system that writes its drivers for a particular peice of hardware, without pretence it will cope with differetn pieces of hardware? There's no relationship between a HAL and the creation of drivers for specific pieces of hardware. Drivers are always created for specific hardware, but they may or may not be largely written in assembly language. Those that are not are obviously using a certain degree of hardware abstraction. In general, a HAL limits the amount of assembly-language programming required in the OS. Apart from the obvious advantage of improving portability, this also allows the OS to be built with less need for the scarce programmers who happen to be expert in assembly-language programming for a specific platform. High-level languages aren't inherently more reliable, but it's easier to find programmers who are expert in high-level languages than it is to find programmers who are specialists in specific assembly or machine languages. A HAL also diminishes performance and increases OS bloat, but today that is often considered an acceptable trade-off. Even so, extremely critical sections of code may still be written or rewritten in assembler, and of course the HAL itself is in assembler by definition. Writing the entire OS in assembler is acceptable (and extremely performant) _if_ you can find expert programmers to write it. In the old days, UNIX was considered a bit of an oddball because it effectively used hardware abstraction (by being written mostly in C), although it was not the first OS to do so. That made it slow compared to its contemporaries of similar functionality, too--whereas today it is fast and efficient compared to most other operating systems that postdate it. The hardware abstraction of being written in C was a key factor in making UNIX one of the most widely used operating systems in history. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: I doubt many people here would request a feature for MS, have it granted, then forget what that feature was. I have never considered it an especially significant event. Well, you are showing many user traits, and not many sys admin traits. I'm both a user and a sysadmin. Maybe past your prime? As I've said, I've never found experience to be a handicap. Why does a man of your decades of experience have to ask a FreeBSD mailing list the meaning of a common english word? I wasn't asking the meaning, I was puzzled by the non-standard usage of it in the post. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: Therefore, in order to keep this list a sane and useful resource, I would suggest that if anyone feels like answering anthonys queries, they do it to his personal email address, so the rest of us might get on with other issues ... Why were your previous eight replies (roughly 42 kilobytes) directed to the list, then? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: And to test with just one disk on the controller, specifically the Seagate, but also with just the Quantum, to eliminate a possible bad interaction between the disks and to eliminate possible incompatible firmware in either of the disks to that of the Adaptec controller. Since you haven't done that we still don't know if possibly it would work fine with only one of the disks on the chain. A waste of time without first determining what the messages coming from FreeBSD actually meant. You were already told this. Do you always start swapping hardware in and out whenever you see an unfamiliar message on the console? If I was repairing a car, (which I do on occassion) then no. Why - because on an automobile there is sufficient test access points at the junctions of each subsystem in the vehicle to actually perform real problem analysis. For example you see a too lean condition, you can attach a vacuum guage to a convenient manifold port and see if manifold vacuum at idle is low, indicating a leak in a vacuum line. Or you can put an oscilloscope on the O2 sensor and see if it is tracking the mixture, or if it is just lifelessly hanging there doing nothing. But with computer PC hardware, it has been built for 20 years so that the repair techs do not have any access whatsoever into the logic circuits. Gone are the days of front panel switches and LED's indicating the logic state of the CPU bus. With the resultant 'toasters' the only kind of hardware troubleshooting possible is substitution - to replace the suspected faulty component or components with known good ones. It would have been an invalid conjecture because while your utility power might be bad, the power your getting from your UPS certainly isn't. I do assume you have this on a UPS, right? Yes ... but what makes you so sure it's not suddenly defective? That is simple to check - substitute the problem computer on the UPS with a known good one. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: But the ahc() driver -is- bug free. It's not bug free when it's running on modified hardware, but it's fine when it's running with unmodded hardware. It's also free of bugs if it's never called. And you are criticizing others for irrelevant comments? Tens of thousands (probably more) of other people run FreeBSD servers for years using aic7880 chipsets without seeing what your seeing. Even more run Windows without seeing what I'm seeing. Exactly. If you ran Windows on your system and it blew up, because of all those other people running Windows successfully on aic7880 systems without trouble, woudn't it be obvious to you that it was a hardware issue? This goes to show that if you have a large number of people having no problems running a software package with a particular hardware item - in this case all the users running FreeBSD on aic7880 controllers - that when someone comes along with that hardware item and has problems, that the finger points not to software, but to hardware. Someone must be running my machine, since it is mentioned on the 5.3 compatibility list. Perhaps they long ago replaced their SCSI disks with a cheaper and a much higher capacity IDE drive? Or more likely - they never lost their second Seagate drive like you did and never had HP send out a Quantum replacement? Clearly, there is something in your hardware that is different from all these other people and that FreeBSD doesn't work with. Probably. Sounds like an OS bug to me. How could it be an OS bug if nobody else is seeing it on normal aic7880 systems? Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Or more likely - they never lost their second Seagate drive like you did and never had HP send out a Quantum replacement? I never lost a drive on the machine. I added a second drive after purchasing it. How could it be an OS bug if nobody else is seeing it on normal aic7880 systems? I'm not sure what you mean by normal systems, but clearly there is something about this system that FreeBSD is not written to handle. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Or more likely - they never lost their second Seagate drive like you did and never had HP send out a Quantum replacement? I never lost a drive on the machine. I added a second drive after purchasing it. How could it be an OS bug if nobody else is seeing it on normal aic7880 systems? I'm not sure what you mean by normal systems, but clearly there is something about this system that FreeBSD is not written to handle. Yay! *claps* Isn't that what Ted has been telling you to an extent - that it's the HP/Compaq microcode in the drivers? Anthony - have you ever setup a new HP/Compaq server? Ever use the SmartStart CD's? In contrast, you CAN'T (hear me again) CAN'T install Windows (shrink wrap) on the above without them. It's becasue HP/C has propriatarty drivers. And why is that? I think Ted covered that well. -- Best regards, Chris The inside contact that you have developed at great expense is the first person to be let go in any reorganization. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: Yay! *claps* Isn't that what Ted has been telling you to an extent - that it's the HP/Compaq microcode in the drivers? No. He and most other people have been trying to convince me that it's defective hardware, and not a deficiency of the operating system. But defective hardware is hardware that fails to do its job, and these drives have done their jobs under Windows NT for eight years. In this case, the OS is defective, because it's not doing its job. I know the job can be done because Windows NT does it. Anthony - have you ever setup a new HP/Compaq server? Ever use the SmartStart CD's? I don't remember if I ever did it myself. Compaq servers are such a nightmare that I tried to avoid dealing with them. In contrast, you CAN'T (hear me again) CAN'T install Windows (shrink wrap) on the above without them. It's becasue HP/C has propriatarty drivers. That may be, but I installed an off-the-shelf retail version of Windows NT on this system, and it ran without any problems at all. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mon, 2005-28-03 at 16:21 +0200, Anthony Atkielski wrote: But defective hardware is hardware that fails to do its job, and these drives have done their jobs under Windows NT for eight years. I'm not an NT fan myself, but from reading your past posts, it seems to do everything you need far better than freebsd. Why not just stick with NT/2k? Just curious. Chris signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris Warren writes: I'm not an NT fan myself, but from reading your past posts, it seems to do everything you need far better than freebsd. Why not just stick with NT/2k? Just curious. I wanted to diversify my experience. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by normal systems, but clearly there is something about this system that FreeBSD is not written to handle. Yay! *claps* Isn't that what Ted has been telling you to an extent - that it's the HP/Compaq microcode in the drivers? I think it's a glass-half-full glass-half-empty argument. The main point I've been trying to make is that just because FreeBSD's drivers don't support whatever modification has been made in the Adaptec code on the Vectra, does not mean that the FreeBSD driver is broken or has a bug in it. Anthony - have you ever setup a new HP/Compaq server? Ever use the SmartStart CD's? In contrast, you CAN'T (hear me again) CAN'T install Windows (shrink wrap) on the above without them. It's becasue HP/C has propriatarty drivers. Actually, if you don't have the SmartStart CD you can download the individual drivers and at the critical moments during the install, you can load them from floppies. But you are correct in that these are trapdoor systems - if you do not install the Compaq/HP-written drivers at the right times during the install, then Windows loads it's default drivers which may or may not (usually not) work. And once loaded you cannot unload them and replace them with the manufacturer-supplied ones because the operating system won't let you do things like unloading the device driver that runs the controller that the system disk is on, things like that. You have to nuke and repave. I think Dell is the same way, though. I suspect all the name brand systems are - that is why people buy name-brand server systems, to get the extra little features like the preemptive disk failure monitoring, the case-open/case-closed, temperature, fanspeed, power supply voltage monitoring, and all the other proprietary little features. It's very much like buying the Lexus that comes with the key chip - you get the extra feature of not being able to start the car without a key with a chip in it, with the downside that only Lexus supplies the chipped keys (and charges you up the ass for them of course) And why is that? I think Ted covered that well. :-) Actualy I didn't cover that. Manufacturers put these proprietary things in their server products because they are features that are very useful to organizations that run hundreds if not thousands of servers all over the country or the world - with the caveat of course that every server has to be the same model and come from that same manufacturer to get the full benefit of the little fancy features. But to most of us who don't run these large networks, these features do nothing at best, and are an annoyance at worst. The HP disk sector atomicity thing was a great feature if you had disks on an external cabinet that didn't have a UPS on it. Sure, laugh, but when you have a large HP minicomputer with a disk pack the size of a refrigerator that has 50 scsi disks in it, that consumes 15Kw, you don't just go down and grab a UPS from Office Depot. But naturally for small PC's it was a completely stupid and useless feature which is why no other disk manufacturer bothered to license HP's patent on it. While I can't of course say that the Adaptec microcode in Anthony's server was modified to support this particular feature, clearly HP had some fancy feature support in mind which is why they tampered with the microcode to begin with. And the sector atomicity thing was not the only fancy feature that HP put in it's disks back when they were manufacturing them. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: In a case like this it is very likely a BSD driver issue - why, because the FreeBSD driver author could not test with every custom-modified microcode when he wrote the driver. There is no list out there of every computer company who has had a source license to the Adaptec microcode and made modifications to it. And naturally you would assume that anyone making mods to the SCSI microcode would have the brains not to break it. In this case that didn't happen. Most likely HP modified the Adaptec microcode because of bugs in the disks that they were supplying with the original Vectras. I wouldn't automatically assume that there were _bugs_ in the disks. Companies that modify things in this way usually do so because they are under the mistaken impression that they can somehow build a better machine by throwing away all the standard stuff and home-brewing their own branded versions of everything (the phenomenon isn't limited to just computers, either). This is one argument _against_ buying major brands; at least when you buy a no-name brand off the shelf or build something yourself, everything on the machine is likely to be conformant to industry standards. HP probably thought they were doing the world a favor by modifying the firmware--they probably thought they were adding value, instead of diminishing compatibility and maintainability. I don't agree with them, but that's neither here nor there now. As far as I know, the disk drives themselves are off-the-shelf drives. One is a Western Digital Barracuda, and the other is a Quantum Atlas, if I remember correctly. Both were branded HP on the box, but the drives themselves carry the original manufacturers' labels. The reason he wasn't seeing problems with NT on the system was that as we all know Microsoft obtains samples of every name-brand system that is ever manufactured specifically for compatibility testing, and they probably already ran into this problem and put a workaround in their driver. This isn't nearly as universal as you imply. Microsoft is regularly bitten by custom-modified software and hardware on computers used by its customers. That includes computers built by major brands such as HP/COMPAQ, Dell, and so on. Sometimes a vendor will have a specific configuration formally certified by Microsoft for use with Windows; but if it doesn't, or if it makes any change at all in the configuration after certification, the result may not work. The most desperate customers may actually loan some of their actual machines to Microsoft PSS in order to help the latter find problems and workarounds. The hardware vendors are not always cooperative, and sometimes they seem to be clueless about their own modifications. In this case, given that this was a high-end machine from a major brand that came with Windows NT preinstalled, it may have been formally certified by Microsoft (although I removed the pre-installed copy of French Windows NT Workstation and replaced it with U.S. English Windows NT Server, which still ran okay). But things don't always turn out so happily. I have noticed a similar problem on the same Adaptec controller in a Compaq system which is running Adaptec-supplied, Compaq-modified microcode and a Quantum disk drive. I have MANY systems running the same Adaptec controller that are using genuine Adaptec adapters which are using Adaptec microcode that is not modded by some computer company, that run perfectly fine. The differences in microcode are probably minor. Hardware manufacturers may be willing to let computer companies cook up custom versions of microcode, but I daresay they are far less willing to come up with custom _hardware_ for computer companies, which would cost a fortune--no computer company is likely to bring in enough business to justify a significant hardware change. So naturally the microcode can't drift too much if it has to stay compatible with the same hardware. But it can easily drift enough to screw up the software. It is beyond comprehension why companies like Compaq and HP see fit to fuck around with the perfectly good Adaptec microcode. But the fact is that in my and in his system, they have done so. They want to be different. They think they are so important and so special that everything has to be altered by their magic touch. They fantasize that customers will say no, I don't want that standard firmware, I want REAL HP/COMPAQ firmware, it's so much nicer! Of course, that doesn't happen in real life, and if anything, the custom stuff works against them. Customers moan and groan about the custom stuff all the time. About 99% of the vendor-specific stuff serves no discernable purpose, and just makes the systems harder to use and maintain. They will run okay in the EXACT configuration that came preinstalled from the factory; but if you so much as look at a jumper, things will start to fail. His three choices are to first: try a different SCSI disk
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Actually it was a waste to you because you don't want to try anything, but it wasn't a waste to others on the list. It was a waste to me because nobody knows what the problem is or how to fix it, and the only suggestions I got were that the hardware was failing, which I know isn't true. When trying to troubleshoot a problem you make a conjecture as to what the problem might be then you test for it. I guess it's a good thing that nobody conjectured that it might be bad utility power, or I'd have to switch to a new nuclear plant in order to troubleshooot the problem. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: In a case like this it is very likely a BSD driver issue - why, because the FreeBSD driver author could not test with every custom-modified microcode when he wrote the driver. There is no list out there of every computer company who has had a source license to the Adaptec microcode and made modifications to it. And naturally you would assume that anyone making mods to the SCSI microcode would have the brains not to break it. In this case that didn't happen. Most likely HP modified the Adaptec microcode because of bugs in the disks that they were supplying with the original Vectras. I wouldn't automatically assume that there were _bugs_ in the disks. Not for the Seagate that you have but as I've said before I've had problems with Quantum SCSI disk drives on other controllers, in different systems, and even on NT. And, HP used to manufacture their own SCSI disks, as I recall they stopped doing it sometime around that era. They put special firmware that supported some extra features in the HP 6000 and S800/900 (like sector atomicity, patent EP565855, anyone remember that) in them, and did that up until 1996. I also recall issues with the HP disks on certain controllers. I suspect that some of those Vectra servers were sold with HP disks in them. ... and b) Anthony is convinced that his Vectra has an Adaptec chipset and microcode that runs that chipset that is pefectly good and identically compliant to every other Adaptec chipset ... I don't recall ever saying anything about the microcode, only the hardware. OK, but let's just say that the way you were using the terminology you wern't differentiating the microcode from the aic7880 chipset. Granted, we on the list overlooked this as well - nobody asked you early on to post the firmware versions of the Adaptec controller. We all I think assumed that HP just used the Adaptec aic7880 with the regular Adaptec firmware/microcode. With that sort of attitude if he were to approach the author of the ahc() driver he would be told to stick his head up his ass. Whereas Microsoft just modified the OS to accommodate the special microcode. That's why Microsoft is number one. You also pay Microsoft for their stuff - makes a big difference - my guess if you contacted the ahc() developer and offered to pay him the cost of an NT server license he would be more than happy to mod the driver no matter how much of an asshole you chose to be to him. (or her) In any case if you meet the driver author halfway and don't approach it like it's his driver that's broken, but rather that your hardware isn't exactly compliant, (regardless of what you really believe) you won't be put into the anal insertion category. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Actually it was a waste to you because you don't want to try anything, but it wasn't a waste to others on the list. It was a waste to me because nobody knows what the problem is or how to fix it, and the only suggestions I got were that the hardware was failing, which I know isn't true. And to test with just one disk on the controller, specifically the Seagate, but also with just the Quantum, to eliminate a possible bad interaction between the disks and to eliminate possible incompatible firmware in either of the disks to that of the Adaptec controller. Since you haven't done that we still don't know if possibly it would work fine with only one of the disks on the chain. When trying to troubleshoot a problem you make a conjecture as to what the problem might be then you test for it. I guess it's a good thing that nobody conjectured that it might be bad utility power, or I'd have to switch to a new nuclear plant in order to troubleshooot the problem. It would have been an invalid conjecture because while your utility power might be bad, the power your getting from your UPS certainly isn't. I do assume you have this on a UPS, right? Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: You also pay Microsoft for their stuff - makes a big difference ... The rest of FreeBSD seems to have been written without any checks from me. ... my guess if you contacted the ahc() developer and offered to pay him the cost of an NT server license he would be more than happy to mod the driver no matter how much of an asshole you chose to be to him. (or her) I probably still have a pristine copy of NT Server in a sealed box somewhere. I think I bought several copies. I know I have a sealed box of Office 97, since it's sitting right next to me, but apparently it has some issues when installed on XP (these days I hesitate to install anything from Microsoft because installing one MS product seems to install about 95% of its other products automagically). In any case if you meet the driver author halfway and don't approach it like it's his driver that's broken, but rather that your hardware isn't exactly compliant, (regardless of what you really believe) you won't be put into the anal insertion category. If I have to worry about hurting the developer's delicate feelings, maybe a new developer might be a good idea. I hoped to stop having to deal with schoolkids when I got out of school. Good developers feel morally obligated to deliver bug-free code and don't have to be nagged about it. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Anthony Atkielski wrote: If I have to worry about hurting the developer's delicate feelings, maybe a new developer might be a good idea. I hoped to stop having to deal with schoolkids when I got out of school. Good developers feel morally obligated to deliver bug-free code and don't have to be nagged about it. Tell that to the MS developers then - perhaps they will listen to you. Tell them to stop producing bloated code. Code that allows every 12 year-old on the planet to code a new back door, Trojan, or virus. Tell them - and once they start doing that - maybe the real technical users around the world won't snicker when they here the word, Microsoft. -- Best regards, Chris People will believe anything if you whisper it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In any case if you meet the driver author halfway and don't approach it like it's his driver that's broken, but rather that your hardware isn't exactly compliant, (regardless of what you really believe) you won't be put into the anal insertion category. If I have to worry about hurting the developer's delicate feelings, maybe a new developer might be a good idea. I hoped to stop having to deal with schoolkids when I got out of school. Good developers feel morally obligated to deliver bug-free code and don't have to be nagged about it. But the ahc() driver -is- bug free. It's not bug free when it's running on modified hardware, but it's fine when it's running with unmodded hardware. Your complaint sounds somewhat like the guy who bought a 68 Mustang then complained when he had to cut away the shock towers to fit in a 460 and headers, then complained more when the torque from his engine twisted the frame of the car. Your going to be told to stick your head up your ass as long as you keep believing that your hardware and it's firmware has nothing to do with the problem. Tens of thousands (probably more) of other people run FreeBSD servers for years using aic7880 chipsets without seeing what your seeing. Clearly, there is something in your hardware that is different from all these other people and that FreeBSD doesn't work with. Your controller is probably the most common narrow scsi controller in use among people running FreeBSD production servers. Only the Symbiosis narrow scsi chipset probably has a larger following, and a lot of these are only running tapedrives and CD's. (since they were sold with no boot rom) Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: And to test with just one disk on the controller, specifically the Seagate, but also with just the Quantum, to eliminate a possible bad interaction between the disks and to eliminate possible incompatible firmware in either of the disks to that of the Adaptec controller. Since you haven't done that we still don't know if possibly it would work fine with only one of the disks on the chain. A waste of time without first determining what the messages coming from FreeBSD actually meant. Do you always start swapping hardware in and out whenever you see an unfamiliar message on the console? It would have been an invalid conjecture because while your utility power might be bad, the power your getting from your UPS certainly isn't. I do assume you have this on a UPS, right? Yes ... but what makes you so sure it's not suddenly defective? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: Tell that to the MS developers then - perhaps they will listen to you. Done. Tell them to stop producing bloated code. I've tried, but that is both a tendency of many developers (especially PC developers) and a marketing imperative. Code that allows every 12 year-old on the planet to code a new back door, Trojan, or virus. Bloat alone doesn't allow that, and Microsoft code isn't any more vulnerable to this than any other code of comparable complexity for PC systems. Tell them - and once they start doing that - maybe the real technical users around the world won't snicker when they here the word, Microsoft. What does any of this have to do with FreeBSD? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: But the ahc() driver -is- bug free. It's not bug free when it's running on modified hardware, but it's fine when it's running with unmodded hardware. It's also free of bugs if it's never called. Your complaint sounds somewhat like the guy who bought a 68 Mustang then complained when he had to cut away the shock towers to fit in a 460 and headers, then complained more when the torque from his engine twisted the frame of the car. I don't know anything about cars. Your going to be told to stick your head up your ass as long as you keep believing that your hardware and it's firmware has nothing to do with the problem. No, I'll be told that as long as I'm dealing with children instead of adults. Tens of thousands (probably more) of other people run FreeBSD servers for years using aic7880 chipsets without seeing what your seeing. Even more run Windows without seeing what I'm seeing. Someone must be running my machine, since it is mentioned on the 5.3 compatibility list. Clearly, there is something in your hardware that is different from all these other people and that FreeBSD doesn't work with. Probably. Sounds like an OS bug to me. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
No, I'll be told that as long as I'm dealing with children instead of adults. this is around the fith time recently you have either insinuated or outright claimed that the participants of this mailing list are all immature children. And yet you return time and time again asking for help. What does this say about you? You have now also started taking your attitute into many other threads, making it very difficult to sift through the techunicaly relevent and helpful threads thanks to your inability to control your tantrums. You are spoiling this list for the people who would like to work together to solve their problems. Yes, you can be kill mailed, but that will not remove your replies. It looks like the only solution is to filter out any mail containing your name anywhere in the text (even this is not fool proof due to unquoted citations), and this will mean that many useful or genuine mails will be filtered also due to having your name in it. Yes everyone on this list are immature children, and yes no-one will listen to any objective critisism of their mightly religious icon FreeBSD. Any problem anyone gives is obviously the fault of other people because FreeBSD is perfect. Now that you have agreement, please be on your way to find the adult company you seek. Martin ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Mar 22 at 17:05, Anthony Atkielski said: Bart Silverstrim writes: -- And when people are saying that it's more likely X but you insist it's Y and you don't want to take the time to do Y because there are others who should be more competent with it, what are you going to do to compensate them if they drop everything to do Y and find out it wasn't, in fact, their fault? Anything? Who's going to pay me for the time I lose indulging them? How much time have you lost _just_ within the context of this thread alone? Everyone has attempted - with great diligence and considerable patience - to *help* you. You said earlier (I seem to recall) that this isn't a production machine, thus presumably it's a personal project. With hardware of this vintage it's to be hoped so anyway. My point is you've alreay lost timeon a personal project, with no certainty of an outcome under *any* OS. Are you so wired in that all the hours in your day are billable to some_project_or_other? If so, use the 80/20 rule and tank this one. It's either that or if you *are* billing for your time, you don't understand consultant methodology...to say the least of it, because you would be agressively chasing a solution *OR* seeing the law of diminshing returns, abandon the project and go do something more profitable and with an outcome of some kindinstead of cursing out and maligning list members, the OS etc. etc. I shouldn't have risen to this, but it's already gone from the realms of the sublime to the utterly absurd. You've argued _yourself_ into a loop from which there seems to be no egress. You're the one frothing endlessly about something that you could have gone a long way to troubleshooting or even gasp solving! You apparently elected not to for reasons best known to yourself. Thus - I think - it's time to put this down and give everyone a much deserved rest from the eternally utterly futile series of exchanges. sigh Regards, -Colin -- Colin J. Raven Sat Mar 26 13:08:00 CET 2005 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Colin J. Raven writes: How much time have you lost _just_ within the context of this thread alone? Not very much, although it was virtually a total waste. Everyone has attempted - with great diligence and considerable patience - to *help* you. Most have spent a lot of bandwidth on ad hominem (see your own post for an example), and virtually none on constructive suggestions. And of those who offered relatively constructive suggestions, most were pure conjecture, often influenced by some sort of bias. You said earlier (I seem to recall) that this isn't a production machine, thus presumably it's a personal project. With hardware of this vintage it's to be hoped so anyway. Yes. My point is you've alreay lost timeon a personal project, with no certainty of an outcome under *any* OS. Are you so wired in that all the hours in your day are billable to some_project_or_other? I am often pretty short of time, yes. I shouldn't have risen to this, but it's already gone from the realms of the sublime to the utterly absurd. You've argued _yourself_ into a loop from which there seems to be no egress. You're the one frothing endlessly about something that you could have gone a long way to troubleshooting or even gasp solving! You apparently elected not to for reasons best known to yourself. Thus - I think - it's time to put this down and give everyone a much deserved rest from the eternally utterly futile series of exchanges. See my comment above about ad hominem. If you're really that bothered by this thread, why do you expend so much energy on something as useless as a personal attack? Particularly at this late point, when I've hardly said anything at all about my problem on this server in several days (no time to look into it myself). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I shouldn't have risen to this, but it's already gone from the realms of the sublime to the utterly absurd. Colin, After going back and forth on this problem for weeks, Anthony finally posted the microcode version that his Adaptec controller is using. This microcode is NOT the generic Adaptec microcode that Adaptec normally supplies with that controller - instead, it is Adaptec-supplied, HP-modified code. In a case like this it is very likely a BSD driver issue - why, because the FreeBSD driver author could not test with every custom-modified microcode when he wrote the driver. There is no list out there of every computer company who has had a source license to the Adaptec microcode and made modifications to it. And naturally you would assume that anyone making mods to the SCSI microcode would have the brains not to break it. In this case that didn't happen. Most likely HP modified the Adaptec microcode because of bugs in the disks that they were supplying with the original Vectras. The reason he wasn't seeing problems with NT on the system was that as we all know Microsoft obtains samples of every name-brand system that is ever manufactured specifically for compatibility testing, and they probably already ran into this problem and put a workaround in their driver. I have noticed a similar problem on the same Adaptec controller in a Compaq system which is running Adaptec-supplied, Compaq-modified microcode and a Quantum disk drive. I have MANY systems running the same Adaptec controller that are using genuine Adaptec adapters which are using Adaptec microcode that is not modded by some computer company, that run perfectly fine. It is beyond comprehension why companies like Compaq and HP see fit to fuck around with the perfectly good Adaptec microcode. But the fact is that in my and in his system, they have done so. His three choices are to first: try a different SCSI disk from a different manufacturer, in the hopes that it might behave with the modified microcode. As I've explained to him I've had problems with Quantum SCSI disks in the past and I don't use them - if he reverts to his single Seagate disk he might get lucky and the problem go away - then he will know to buy a bigger Seagate if he needs more space. Second, he can go into BIOS and disable the on-motherboard SCSI controllers and use an off-the-shelf controller, like a cheap symbiosis or NCR one for example. Third, he can try to contact the FreeBSD developer who is assigned to the ahc() driver, tell that person that he has an HP Vectra that uses a aic7880 chipset that is running microcode that HP modified, and that his system is having problems, and offer that person his system for testing. He may need to ship his system to that developer or more likely put an IDE disk in it that has a running BSD system on it, attach a disk to the Adaptec controller, put it on the Internet and set it up for remote access so the developer can examine it. In my case, I'm going to try a different SCSI disk in hopes that the interaction between the Compaq-modified SCSI adapter and the disk drive is different and does not trigger whatever bug Compaq introduced into the Adaptec microcode. And if that doesen't work I'll just remove the SCSI adapter and throw it in the garbage and put in a genuine Adaptec adapter. Anthony cannot do this because he doesen't have a separate adapter, his SCSI chipset is on the motherboard. If he updated BIOS there's a slight possibility that the updated BIOS might carry a later rev. of microcode - but I am pretty sure with that Adaptec chipset that the microcode was in a ROM not in an EEPROM so it can't be updated. But Anthony's biggest obstacles to this are that a) he doesen't believe in bugs that appear as a result of interactions between microcode in disk drives and microcode in SCSI adapters, he seems to feel that everyone in the business exactly perfectly follows the SCSI standard when they manufacture disks and controllers. This I find strange because there have been many times disk manufacturers have posted corrected firmware for their disk drives - if nobody ever made mistakes in implementations, no one would ever post microcode updates. But for some reason Anthony does not believe in this, or if he does he is convinced that HIS disks have perfect SCSI implementations. and b) Anthony is convinced that his Vectra has an Adaptec chipset and microcode that runs that chipset that is pefectly good and identically compliant to every other Adaptec chipset, and that the problems he's having are not as a result in his hardware not being compliant with every other Adaptec adapter card, but are the result of some gross in the Adaptec driver. This despite that most people running Adaptec controllers with aic7880 chipsets in them under FreeBSD do NOT have problems. With that sort of attitude if he were to approach the author of the ahc() driver he would be told to stick his head up his
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Colin J. Raven writes: How much time have you lost _just_ within the context of this thread alone? Not very much, although it was virtually a total waste. Actually it was a waste to you because you don't want to try anything, but it wasn't a waste to others on the list. Anyone wanting to run FreeBSD on an old Vectra they have around if they search the list archives they are going to come across this thread, and be educated. Most have spent a lot of bandwidth on ad hominem (see your own post for an example), and virtually none on constructive suggestions. And of those who offered relatively constructive suggestions, most were pure conjecture, often influenced by some sort of bias. When trying to troubleshoot a problem you make a conjecture as to what the problem might be then you test for it. So of course, any constructive suggestion is going to be conjecture. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris writes: Your legacy hardware finally gave up the ghost... Uh, no. The production server is about 90 days old, and state of the art. The drives are brand new. That is right around the time that brand new drives fail, if they are going to, that is. Modern drives with the exception of high end SCSI ones, are as a friend of mine put it once: slapped together a million miles a second on the assembly line Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:23:36 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris writes: Your legacy hardware finally gave up the ghost... Uh, no. The production server is about 90 days old, and state of the art. The drives are brand new. That is right around the time that brand new drives fail, if they are going to, that is. Modern drives with the exception of high end SCSI ones, are as a friend of mine put it once: slapped together a million miles a second on the assembly line Ted Typically when there's an SSH password delay issue in authentication it has to do with the name resolution. Check your /etc/resolv.conf -- it may be your name servers that are responding slowly or if the hosts do not reverse, that may be it as well. Anyway, just a hunch, I've had that happen to me before. -- Best wishes, Alexander G. Chamandy Webmaster www.bsdfreak.org Your Source For BSD News! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: That is right around the time that brand new drives fail, if they are going to, that is. Well, I got a replacement drive today, so if this one fails, I have another one standing by. I'll need to see more clear indications that the drive is actually in trouble before swapping them, however (I have backups and only /var and /tmp are on the drive, so I can afford to wait and see). The self-tests I run with smartctl show no errors, but the UDMA CRC error count for /dev/ad10 is non-zero, as is the soft error count. I don't know how much I can trust these numbers. Modern drives with the exception of high end SCSI ones, are as a friend of mine put it once: slapped together a million miles a second on the assembly line I could buy a dozen of these drives for the cost of one equivalent SCSI drive. SCSI is nice, but it's awfully pricey, for no good reason that I can see, and unless one is running a very heavily loaded server, I'm not sure that I see the advantage to it. I was thinking a few days ago that extremely fast static RAM might be the single best way to boost system performance, but that was just daydreaming. (From what I understand, most modern processors spend most of their time in wait states waiting for memory to reply.) -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
