Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi Munawar, Yes, all too true. Back around 2002/2003 when I began learning .NET it clearly seamed to be the way to go. The way of the future and all that. The early .NET books on VB .NET and C# .NET praised .NET as some great and wonderful API which in many ways it was. However, after you have worked with .NET a while its disadvantages begin to come quite apparent. For example, a lot of people here probably don't know I actually originally created STFC in C++ using LibSDL for sound and input on Red Hat Linux around 2002/2003. When .NET came out I immediately switched to C# .NET, rewrote the program for .NET, and released the .NET version we all know and love. However, over time I have really come to regret that decision for a number of reasons. First, I tied STFC to a Windows API, and made the game and code too platform specific. I used Managed DirectX which is now not even being supported by Microsoft. All I really had to do back then was modify and recompile the game using Visual C++ and shipped the Windows version of the SDL libraries with it. I could have actually had a Windows and a Linux version of the game way back then. So there is greavence number one. Second, when I began learning C# .NET and VB .NET I wasn't aware I needed to use obfuscation tools to protect my programs. I was well in to STFC's .NET rewrite when someone asked me what program I was using for .NET obfuscation. At the time I was like, "what the heck are you talking about?" Of course, it was explained to me I had to use an obfuscation tool like Dotfuscator to scramble my MSIL code so no one could reverse engineer my programs. Naturally, I was pretty miffed at Microsoft for leaving such an obvious and huge security risk open to hackers and crackers. So I had to whip out a hunk of change to secure my programs. That was greavence number two. Third, there is the entire issue of Windows 32 byt and 64 byt additions. If you use a free tool like Visual C# 2008 Express you can't change the target platform easily, and it defaults to AnyCPU. This is major bad news as I've got experience the AnyCPU option often fails to work because if you use a managed library compiled for a different platform than .NET thinks you are running Crash City here we come. You can force Visual C# Express to compile for X86, or x64 but it is a matter of enabling a bunch of stuff they turned off by default. If you ask Microsoft how to do this they will lie and tell you the express versions can not be compiled for x86 or x64 target platforms, and you must purchase the professional version. I should know as that is what they told me, and i found out from someone else that Microsoft was lying through their teeth. Someone walked me through the steps setting up Visual C# Express for creating the x86and x64 target platforms, and it worked like a charm. So it is obvious Microsoft is using the ability to change the target platform in the IDE as a selling point for their professional versions even though we don't need to upgrade for that feature, and they know better than anyone that this ability is needed more than ever given the number of Windows 64 byt systems out there now. That's major greavence number three. Fourth, there is the old problem of native code verses runtime code. With .NET even though the .NET Framework is powerful it still falls short of giving you full access to everything you may want or need for an application. You can't simply use DirectX without using a third-party API like SlimDX for sound/input support. There are plenty of other Win32 API libraries like kernel32.dll or user32.dll you can't access unless you write a .NET wrapper for them. Why do this when a language like C++ can use them without any extra steps of writing a managed wrapper for them. That's greavence number four. Fifth, with the growth of Mac OS and Linux these days it is a good idea to try and be as platform independent as possible. At least make the software product so it can be easily modified and ported to other platforms as needed. Originally this is one of the ideas behind the Mono Project using C# .NET. However, over time legal issues have arisen between the Mono Project's founders and Microsoft making the future of .NET on non-Windows platforms very uncertain. Any developer might want to think twice about developing .NET based products for Mac OS and Linux given the legality of the open source Mono Project. That's greavence number five. Finally, .NET does a lot of things that are nice for newbies, but isn't so great for time critical programming. Most new programmers can take advantage of the .NET Framework's garbage collecter for cleaning up after the program, but that isn't always the best thing to do. Some applications will run better if the developer does his/her own garbage collection, memory management, and doesn't rely on some universal vacuum cleaner to clean up after his/her mess. It just seams more l
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
I agree with this as well. no need for thomas to do so much extra work. - Original Message - From: "Hayden Presley" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement Hi Dark, Almost exactly how I feel-in my opinion Thomas, you might aought get the 1.0 out there, and if and when you port the Genesis Engine over to C++, you could use that for the 2.0 upgrade. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:15 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement hello Tom. While this does make infinite amounts of sense, my only concern is you yourself. You mentioned wanting to get Mota out of your hair and work on other projects, which is quite understandable given the multiple shinanigans you've had with the game. While I certainly understand the logic of having the genesis engine in general in C++ for future work, that does also mean more work and delay on Mota. if your happy with this, that's fine, but I don't think anyone would blame you if you wanted to get Mota itself finished quicker, then move on to the C++ coding for the genesis engine, Stfc raceway, and designer of any future projects, afterall, a few extra minutes installing for the user is rather different from months more coding for the developer. Of course, it's entirely your decision, I'm just conscious how much of your sweat and blood has already gone into the project thus far, and I think it would be a terrible shame if you just burnt out mid way through due to complications and the game never got released. Ultimately though, it's your game of course, just know that not everyone who plays it is a rabid slave driver who expects you to code all day and night without rest! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:39 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement Hi everyone, Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times without warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain *.wav file could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument exception, and so on all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. I've confirmed this problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my games, from various sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed DirectX API for .NET programs needs to be taken out of the game and be replaced with something else much more stable and reliable. I agree that this should be done before Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is released. Obviously this will take some time, but there are various options and alternatives open to me at this point. There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade the existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and input APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA Framework, and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the engine to use one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder if that is the better solution for the project long term. A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether and begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and USA Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it would be in my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis Engine and Mysteries of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it later on. For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine over to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and USA Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed DirectX from the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it makes more practical sense to save myself the time and work by completing the C++ version of the Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could conceivably produce a better more stable version of Mysteries of the Ancients by using the newer and hopefully better C++ based game engine. Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted to C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. Ever since I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my number one technical support issue has been related to downloading, installing, and upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the .NET Framework and Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save both you and I a lot of work downloading, i
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi, Ah, that is the million dollar question isn't it? I ask myself that question all the time. I guess the best answer is I'm a believer in the Paradoxical Commandments. Kent M. Keith once said, "if you give the world your best you'll get kicked in the teeth. Give the world your best anyway." If you have ever read Kent M. Keith's Paradoxical Commandments they make a lot of sense. They speak of how people should do the right thing regardless of what happens. Yeah, you'll be falsely accused of selfish motives, be kicked in the teeth, make your share of enemies, etc, but don't let those things stop you from doing the right thing anyway. It is doing good simply for the sake of doing good, and knowing at the end of the day you made a difference regardless if the good you do is appreciated. Mauricio Almeida wrote: alison, your post is totally "for the win" as people would say. Thomas, being a developer with your talent, why do you still listen to immature babys who want things half ready or with not as high quality, is something i can't know. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi, Agreed. It's sad because when .NET was first released it looked so promising, but I think the main factor the market will end up moving away from it is the same reason people don't favor Java: it's not native code and can be decompiled using Reflector or Microsoft's own ILDisassembler into raw source code. It's good for large corporations because they have the money to spend on security, but it's too costly for lone developers. For instance, I've spent about $200 just for a security patch. Otherwise, the TDV source code would be all over the net. -- From: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 2:24 PM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement Hi Dark, Oh, I certainly do realize that. I think the major question is weather I should do the conversion now or later. If I do it later I'm only delaying what I plan to do anyway. I've already decided to rewrite the Genesis Engine in C++ for all of my future FPS and side-scroller projects. So the choice is I can either do it now developing it along side MOTA, testing it, debugging it, etc so that future games will get done quicker, or I can put it off until next year and still have to do it anyway. Personally, I'm of the opinion it is better in the long hall to go ahead and do it now so the conversion is done and over with. If I hurry up and get the game done now, using .NET, I'm just waisting time to get a few people off my back, to get the game out of my hair, and then will turn around in a year maybe two and convert it to C++ anyway. So it ends up putting off the inevitable. Bottom line, I've already decided .NET is history as far as any new projects are concerned. Once the new STFC comes out it will no longer use .NET, the development release of Raceway no longer uses .NET, and I'd prefer just to stop using .NET for MOTA as well. Make a clean and final break from that API. It is a good development API, has good languages, but based on personal experience isn't the best option for games unfortunately. *Smile* --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi Munawar, Thanks for the advice. Yeah, i know a conversion from C# .NET to C++ isn't quite as easy as I made it sound in my e-mail, but I've got a fairly good idea of what needs to be done to speed up that conversion process. Once I take care of the C++ specific stuff like the sound manager, input, timers, threads, etc converting the rest of the stuff should be fairly easy to convert. Most of my function calls in the .NET engine are abstract interfaces for speech, sound, input, whatever so the key here is to write those abstract interfaces in C++ and the rest of the code should be a sinch to convert with only miner changes here and there as needed. As it happens I did port the Genesis Engine to Java last year, and it took me about four months to create a working version in Java with a very early prototype of Mysteries of the Ancients. I'm going to assume I can make this conversion in more or less the same time window give or take a month for debugging and possably some extra research for this or that. It is always possible I might fall flat on my face here, but I think letting go of .NET is the best long term solution available to me. Like you said Microsoft seams to have distanced themselves from .NET of late. Releasing Managed DirectX and dumping it for the XNA Framework was not only bad form, but some developers like me are concerned how much long term support Microsoft is going to lend for their .NET APIs. Every time I turn around they are releasing a new and improved .NET Framework with updated classes, methods, and so on which sounds good, but in actuality just ends up being bloatware. I remember once upon a time the first .NET framework was something around 99 MB, and now 4.0 is three times the size. I don't even use half of it, and that's a lot to download if you are someone over seas who has dialup or certain bandwidth restrictions. Not to mention a bit confusing for some end users. For example, I recently took care of a technical support problem where the person has Windows Vista, he knew Vista came with the .NET Framework, but he was running 3.0. However, MOTA was written using the 3.5 version of the framework which meant he needed to update .NET. It was an easy problem to fix, but still are we as developers suppose to expect our customers to know the difference between .NET 1.1, 2.0, 3.0, 3.5, or 4.0 and figure out which version they have? As a developer I love .NET because of it's ease of use. It has very high level wrappers for the win32, API, and so on. Plus handling things like arrays, strings, etc are so much nicer in .NET. However, .NET certainly has its down side which isn't quite so nice. Which is why I'd just assume part ways with it for my games. *Smile* --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
alison, your post is totally "for the win" as people would say. Thomas, being a developer with your talent, why do you still listen to immature babys who want things half ready or with not as high quality, is something i can't know. -Mensagem original- De: "Allison Mervis" Para: "Gamers Discussion list" Data: Domingo, 13 de Dezembro de 2009 14:05 Assunto: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement I would hope that most people would be mature enough to wait, and would realize that the delay is for our benefit as players and consumers. Thomas, I personally think that you should do whatever will be best in the long run. >From what you said in your original post, it sounds like that would be taking the time necessary to recode, so I say go for it, and don't listen to the winers. Allison Allison http://www.allisonmervis.com/ - Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement > well I think you should do what you can to at least get the registered > version going even if this is just adding the reg support in the game so > that those that are waiting for the game due to the pree orders and such > don't whine at you, they have been waiting long enough. > However since I didn't do the preorder thing when it was mont I say go for > it man. > I have seen wh what your work is nice and if its going to be better than > it actually is which by the way actually is quite good then go nock > yourself out. > At 02:39 p.m. 13/12/2009, you wrote: >>Hi everyone, >>Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with >>Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times >>without warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain >>*.wav file could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument >>exception, and so on all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. >>I've confirmed this problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my >>games, from various sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed >>DirectX API for .NET programs needs to be taken out of the game and be >>replaced with something else much more stable and reliable. I agree that >>this should be done before Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is released. >>Obviously this will take some time, but there are various options and >>alternatives open to me at this point. >>There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade >>the existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and >>input APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA >>Framework, and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the >>engine to use one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder >>if that is the better solution for the project long term. >>A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether >>and begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and >>USA Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it >>would be in my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis >>Engine and Mysteries of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it >>later on. >>For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine >>over to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and >>USA Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed >>DirectX from the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it >>makes more practical sense to save myself the time and work by completing >>the C++ version of the Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could >>conceivably produce a better more stable version of Mysteries of the >>Ancients by using the newer and hopefully better C++ based game engine. >>Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted >>to C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. >>Ever since I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my >>number one technical support issue has been related to downloading, >>installing, and upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the >>.NET Framework and Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save >>both you and I a lot of work downloading, installing, and upgrading >>libraries as I would primarily use standard Windows libraries that would >>be found on any XP, Vista, or Windows 7 system. You should be able to just >>install and go without wondering if you have the absolutely latest DirectX
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi Willem, No software product is 100% secure, but the .NET languages have a serious security flaw that can be exploited if not handled by the developer. Yeah, there are tools to make a .NET application more secure, but still the fact this security issue exists at all isn't helpful, and costs the developer more money to correct the problem. I'd just sooner remove this security issue, and make it a non-issue as soon as I could. Willem wrote: I agree dark. Thomas has done a good job and as long as his part of the game is as bug free as he can get it, I think he should release mota and give out registration keys. This will take a lot of the pressure off him that has been building up for a while. It still makes sense to change the programming language of the game to c++, but maybe it would be better if it is done as a later bugfix release or something. However if the c# release would give game crackers a way to for example find a way to crack the game, I agree with the idea to convert it to c++ first and then release it. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Well if it's something you invisage in the future anyway, then fair enough. I'm just conscious that more mota complications probably aren't what you want right now. I can however distinctly see the point if you want to completely phase net out of everything. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement Hi Dark, Oh, I certainly do realize that. I think the major question is weather I should do the conversion now or later. If I do it later I'm only delaying what I plan to do anyway. I've already decided to rewrite the Genesis Engine in C++ for all of my future FPS and side-scroller projects. So the choice is I can either do it now developing it along side MOTA, testing it, debugging it, etc so that future games will get done quicker, or I can put it off until next year and still have to do it anyway. Personally, I'm of the opinion it is better in the long hall to go ahead and do it now so the conversion is done and over with. If I hurry up and get the game done now, using .NET, I'm just waisting time to get a few people off my back, to get the game out of my hair, and then will turn around in a year maybe two and convert it to C++ anyway. So it ends up putting off the inevitable. Bottom line, I've already decided .NET is history as far as any new projects are concerned. Once the new STFC comes out it will no longer use .NET, the development release of Raceway no longer uses .NET, and I'd prefer just to stop using .NET for MOTA as well. Make a clean and final break from that API. It is a good development API, has good languages, but based on personal experience isn't the best option for games unfortunately. *Smile* --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi Dark, Oh, I certainly do realize that. I think the major question is weather I should do the conversion now or later. If I do it later I'm only delaying what I plan to do anyway. I've already decided to rewrite the Genesis Engine in C++ for all of my future FPS and side-scroller projects. So the choice is I can either do it now developing it along side MOTA, testing it, debugging it, etc so that future games will get done quicker, or I can put it off until next year and still have to do it anyway. Personally, I'm of the opinion it is better in the long hall to go ahead and do it now so the conversion is done and over with. If I hurry up and get the game done now, using .NET, I'm just waisting time to get a few people off my back, to get the game out of my hair, and then will turn around in a year maybe two and convert it to C++ anyway. So it ends up putting off the inevitable. Bottom line, I've already decided .NET is history as far as any new projects are concerned. Once the new STFC comes out it will no longer use .NET, the development release of Raceway no longer uses .NET, and I'd prefer just to stop using .NET for MOTA as well. Make a clean and final break from that API. It is a good development API, has good languages, but based on personal experience isn't the best option for games unfortunately. *Smile* --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi all I agree with Allison here, it sounds like recoding will make Thomases job easier for later games and updates so the wait would definitely be worth it. Luckily there are a meriad of great games out there from the Draconus Entertainment releases, to Q9 from blastbay studios to the free games offered by jim kitchen. Regards Jay -- Jay Pellis http://blindjay.onlinestoragesolution.com -- From: "Allison Mervis" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 2:05 PM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement I would hope that most people would be mature enough to wait, and would realize that the delay is for our benefit as players and consumers. Thomas, I personally think that you should do whatever will be best in the long run. From what you said in your original post, it sounds like that would be taking the time necessary to recode, so I say go for it, and don't listen to the winers. Allison Allison http://www.allisonmervis.com/ - Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement well I think you should do what you can to at least get the registered version going even if this is just adding the reg support in the game so that those that are waiting for the game due to the pree orders and such don't whine at you, they have been waiting long enough. However since I didn't do the preorder thing when it was mont I say go for it man. I have seen wh what your work is nice and if its going to be better than it actually is which by the way actually is quite good then go nock yourself out. At 02:39 p.m. 13/12/2009, you wrote: Hi everyone, Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times without warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain *.wav file could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument exception, and so on all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. I've confirmed this problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my games, from various sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed DirectX API for .NET programs needs to be taken out of the game and be replaced with something else much more stable and reliable. I agree that this should be done before Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is released. Obviously this will take some time, but there are various options and alternatives open to me at this point. There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade the existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and input APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA Framework, and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the engine to use one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder if that is the better solution for the project long term. A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether and begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and USA Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it would be in my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis Engine and Mysteries of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it later on. For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine over to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and USA Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed DirectX from the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it makes more practical sense to save myself the time and work by completing the C++ version of the Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could conceivably produce a better more stable version of Mysteries of the Ancients by using the newer and hopefully better C++ based game engine. Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted to C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. Ever since I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my number one technical support issue has been related to downloading, installing, and upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the .NET Framework and Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save both you and I a lot of work downloading, installing, and upgrading libraries as I would primarily use standard Windows libraries that would be found on any XP, Vista, or Windows 7 system. You should be able to just install and go without wondering if you have the absolutely latest DirectX or .NET Framework on your system. I think this is a much better user friendly setup and hopefully would require a lot less tech support from me. Those are just s
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
I would hope that most people would be mature enough to wait, and would realize that the delay is for our benefit as players and consumers. Thomas, I personally think that you should do whatever will be best in the long run. From what you said in your original post, it sounds like that would be taking the time necessary to recode, so I say go for it, and don't listen to the winers. Allison Allison http://www.allisonmervis.com/ - Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement well I think you should do what you can to at least get the registered version going even if this is just adding the reg support in the game so that those that are waiting for the game due to the pree orders and such don't whine at you, they have been waiting long enough. However since I didn't do the preorder thing when it was mont I say go for it man. I have seen wh what your work is nice and if its going to be better than it actually is which by the way actually is quite good then go nock yourself out. At 02:39 p.m. 13/12/2009, you wrote: Hi everyone, Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times without warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain *.wav file could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument exception, and so on all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. I've confirmed this problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my games, from various sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed DirectX API for .NET programs needs to be taken out of the game and be replaced with something else much more stable and reliable. I agree that this should be done before Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is released. Obviously this will take some time, but there are various options and alternatives open to me at this point. There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade the existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and input APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA Framework, and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the engine to use one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder if that is the better solution for the project long term. A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether and begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and USA Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it would be in my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis Engine and Mysteries of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it later on. For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine over to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and USA Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed DirectX from the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it makes more practical sense to save myself the time and work by completing the C++ version of the Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could conceivably produce a better more stable version of Mysteries of the Ancients by using the newer and hopefully better C++ based game engine. Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted to C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. Ever since I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my number one technical support issue has been related to downloading, installing, and upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the .NET Framework and Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save both you and I a lot of work downloading, installing, and upgrading libraries as I would primarily use standard Windows libraries that would be found on any XP, Vista, or Windows 7 system. You should be able to just install and go without wondering if you have the absolutely latest DirectX or .NET Framework on your system. I think this is a much better user friendly setup and hopefully would require a lot less tech support from me. Those are just some of the advantages of switching to C++ now. Others would include better system performance, better security, a wider availability of game related APIs, etc. Basically, C++ can't be beat when it comes to game programming, and now is clearly the time to strongly consider using it for this project as well as my on going and pending projects. The one question I know many of you are asking is, "how long will all of this take?" That is a difficult question to answer. Anything I would say here would be simply a guess at best. Do to the fact C# .NET is a C-Style language it obviously has a lot in common w
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi, As Liam stated in an earlier post, people will crack games no matter what. Even if it's in C++, it's not uncrackable. -- From: "Willem" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 11:44 AM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement I agree dark. Thomas has done a good job and as long as his part of the game is as bug free as he can get it, I think he should release mota and give out registration keys. This will take a lot of the pressure off him that has been building up for a while. It still makes sense to change the programming language of the game to c++, but maybe it would be better if it is done as a later bugfix release or something. However if the c# release would give game crackers a way to for example find a way to crack the game, I agree with the idea to convert it to c++ first and then release it. On 2009/12/13 03:14 PM, dark wrote: hello Tom. While this does make infinite amounts of sense, my only concern is you yourself. You mentioned wanting to get Mota out of your hair and work on other projects, which is quite understandable given the multiple shinanigans you've had with the game. While I certainly understand the logic of having the genesis engine in general in C++ for future work, that does also mean more work and delay on Mota. if your happy with this, that's fine, but I don't think anyone would blame you if you wanted to get Mota itself finished quicker, then move on to the C++ coding for the genesis engine, Stfc raceway, and designer of any future projects, afterall, a few extra minutes installing for the user is rather different from months more coding for the developer. Of course, it's entirely your decision, I'm just conscious how much of your sweat and blood has already gone into the project thus far, and I think it would be a terrible shame if you just burnt out mid way through due to complications and the game never got released. Ultimately though, it's your game of course, just know that not everyone who plays it is a rabid slave driver who expects you to code all day and night without rest! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi Tom, Converting your code to C++ could take even longer than a few months. While C#.NET is a C-style language, there are a lot of things you will do in C++ that you will not do in .NET. While it's entirely possible to convert your code, it's not just a matter of hitting "convert". Even from VB to C# is a lot of work. SlimDX is extremely stable, and actually has more performance improvements over MDX. The developers have ran numerous tests to make sure SlimDX is not resource intensive and it has been proven to run a lot quicker than MDX. The performance improvement you're talking about between C++and C# isn't big enough to be noticeable by the average gamer. While C++ is a good language, converting code isn't ideal since you're not coding it from the ground up in C++, and as you probably guessed that can lead to missing critical points where memory must be freed and stray pointers cleaned up. I think you've already converted a project over to Java before which took a lot of your time. In the interests of getting the project done, I say you should upgrade to SlimDX (it's not difficult to do ever since they refactored the library,) find an affordable solution to secure your .NET code (Email me offlist if you'd like assistance,) and release it. The extra money you spend to secure your .NET code will be well worth the extra months it will take to convert your code to C++. I do agree that C++ should be a language of choice for new development. I am also getting sick of the headakes involved with .NET; it's a good language, but in the end it is too version-specific. I find it so ironic that Microsoft released the .NET language, and then dropped support for the only interface it had to DirectX using .NET. It seems like even to Microsoft, .NET is just a "wrapper" language. Munawar A. Bijani -- From: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:39 PM To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement Hi everyone, Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times without warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain *.wav file could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument exception, and so on all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. I've confirmed this problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my games, from various sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed DirectX API for .NET programs needs to be taken out of the game and be replaced with something else much more stable and reliable. I agree that this should be done before Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is released. Obviously this will take some time, but there are various options and alternatives open to me at this point. There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade the existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and input APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA Framework, and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the engine to use one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder if that is the better solution for the project long term. A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether and begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and USA Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it would be in my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis Engine and Mysteries of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it later on. For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine over to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and USA Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed DirectX from the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it makes more practical sense to save myself the time and work by completing the C++ version of the Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could conceivably produce a better more stable version of Mysteries of the Ancients by using the newer and hopefully better C++ based game engine. Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted to C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. Ever since I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my number one technical support issue has been related to downloading, installing, and upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the .NET Framework and Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save both you and I a lot of work downloading, installing, and upgrading libraries as I would primarily use standard Windows libraries that would be found on any XP, Vista, or Windows 7 system. You should be able to just install and go without wondering if you have the absolutel
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
I agree dark. Thomas has done a good job and as long as his part of the game is as bug free as he can get it, I think he should release mota and give out registration keys. This will take a lot of the pressure off him that has been building up for a while. It still makes sense to change the programming language of the game to c++, but maybe it would be better if it is done as a later bugfix release or something. However if the c# release would give game crackers a way to for example find a way to crack the game, I agree with the idea to convert it to c++ first and then release it. On 2009/12/13 03:14 PM, dark wrote: hello Tom. While this does make infinite amounts of sense, my only concern is you yourself. You mentioned wanting to get Mota out of your hair and work on other projects, which is quite understandable given the multiple shinanigans you've had with the game. While I certainly understand the logic of having the genesis engine in general in C++ for future work, that does also mean more work and delay on Mota. if your happy with this, that's fine, but I don't think anyone would blame you if you wanted to get Mota itself finished quicker, then move on to the C++ coding for the genesis engine, Stfc raceway, and designer of any future projects, afterall, a few extra minutes installing for the user is rather different from months more coding for the developer. Of course, it's entirely your decision, I'm just conscious how much of your sweat and blood has already gone into the project thus far, and I think it would be a terrible shame if you just burnt out mid way through due to complications and the game never got released. Ultimately though, it's your game of course, just know that not everyone who plays it is a rabid slave driver who expects you to code all day and night without rest! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
Hi Dark, Almost exactly how I feel-in my opinion Thomas, you might aought get the 1.0 out there, and if and when you port the Genesis Engine over to C++, you could use that for the 2.0 upgrade. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:15 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement hello Tom. While this does make infinite amounts of sense, my only concern is you yourself. You mentioned wanting to get Mota out of your hair and work on other projects, which is quite understandable given the multiple shinanigans you've had with the game. While I certainly understand the logic of having the genesis engine in general in C++ for future work, that does also mean more work and delay on Mota. if your happy with this, that's fine, but I don't think anyone would blame you if you wanted to get Mota itself finished quicker, then move on to the C++ coding for the genesis engine, Stfc raceway, and designer of any future projects, afterall, a few extra minutes installing for the user is rather different from months more coding for the developer. Of course, it's entirely your decision, I'm just conscious how much of your sweat and blood has already gone into the project thus far, and I think it would be a terrible shame if you just burnt out mid way through due to complications and the game never got released. Ultimately though, it's your game of course, just know that not everyone who plays it is a rabid slave driver who expects you to code all day and night without rest! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:39 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement > Hi everyone, > Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with > Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times > without warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain > *.wav file could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument > exception, and so on all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. > I've confirmed this problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my > games, from various sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed > DirectX API for .NET programs needs to be taken out of the game and be > replaced with something else much more stable and reliable. I agree that > this should be done before Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is released. > Obviously this will take some time, but there are various options and > alternatives open to me at this point. > There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade > the existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and > input APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA > Framework, and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the > engine to use one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder > if that is the better solution for the project long term. > A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether > and begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and > USA Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it > would be in my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis > Engine and Mysteries of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it > later on. > For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine > over to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and > USA Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed > DirectX from the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it > makes more practical sense to save myself the time and work by completing > the C++ version of the Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could > conceivably produce a better more stable version of Mysteries of the > Ancients by using the newer and hopefully better C++ based game engine. > Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted > to C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. > Ever since I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my > number one technical support issue has been related to downloading, > installing, and upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the > .NET Framework and Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save > both you and I a lot of work downloading, installing, and upgrading > libraries as I would primarily use standard Windows librari
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
hello Tom. While this does make infinite amounts of sense, my only concern is you yourself. You mentioned wanting to get Mota out of your hair and work on other projects, which is quite understandable given the multiple shinanigans you've had with the game. While I certainly understand the logic of having the genesis engine in general in C++ for future work, that does also mean more work and delay on Mota. if your happy with this, that's fine, but I don't think anyone would blame you if you wanted to get Mota itself finished quicker, then move on to the C++ coding for the genesis engine, Stfc raceway, and designer of any future projects, afterall, a few extra minutes installing for the user is rather different from months more coding for the developer. Of course, it's entirely your decision, I'm just conscious how much of your sweat and blood has already gone into the project thus far, and I think it would be a terrible shame if you just burnt out mid way through due to complications and the game never got released. Ultimately though, it's your game of course, just know that not everyone who plays it is a rabid slave driver who expects you to code all day and night without rest! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:39 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement Hi everyone, Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times without warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain *.wav file could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument exception, and so on all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. I've confirmed this problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my games, from various sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed DirectX API for .NET programs needs to be taken out of the game and be replaced with something else much more stable and reliable. I agree that this should be done before Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is released. Obviously this will take some time, but there are various options and alternatives open to me at this point. There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade the existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and input APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA Framework, and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the engine to use one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder if that is the better solution for the project long term. A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether and begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and USA Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it would be in my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis Engine and Mysteries of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it later on. For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine over to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and USA Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed DirectX from the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it makes more practical sense to save myself the time and work by completing the C++ version of the Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could conceivably produce a better more stable version of Mysteries of the Ancients by using the newer and hopefully better C++ based game engine. Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted to C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. Ever since I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my number one technical support issue has been related to downloading, installing, and upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the .NET Framework and Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save both you and I a lot of work downloading, installing, and upgrading libraries as I would primarily use standard Windows libraries that would be found on any XP, Vista, or Windows 7 system. You should be able to just install and go without wondering if you have the absolutely latest DirectX or .NET Framework on your system. I think this is a much better user friendly setup and hopefully would require a lot less tech support from me. Those are just some of the advantages of switching to C++ now. Others would include better system performance, better security, a wider availability of game related APIs, etc. Basically, C++ can't be beat when it comes to game programming, and now is clearly the time to strongly consider using it for this project as well as my on going and pending projects. The one question I know many of you are as
Re: [Audyssey] Important MOTA Announcement
well I think you should do what you can to at least get the registered version going even if this is just adding the reg support in the game so that those that are waiting for the game due to the pree orders and such don't whine at you, they have been waiting long enough. However since I didn't do the preorder thing when it was mont I say go for it man. I have seen wh what your work is nice and if its going to be better than it actually is which by the way actually is quite good then go nock yourself out. At 02:39 p.m. 13/12/2009, you wrote: >Hi everyone, >Over the passed few months many of you have reported to me a problem with >Mysteries of the Ancients where it crashes suddenly and often times without >warning. Some times an error will come up stating that a certain *.wav file >could not be found, DirectX passes an illegal argument exception, and so on >all of which seam to be related to Managed DirectX. I've confirmed this >problem is related to Managed DirectX itself, not my games, from various >sources so it is quite apparent that the Managed DirectX API for .NET programs >needs to be taken out of the game and be replaced with something else much >more stable and reliable. I agree that this should be done before Mysteries of >the Ancients 1.0 is released. Obviously this will take some time, but there >are various options and alternatives open to me at this point. >There is a somewhat short term solution I could use where I simply upgrade the >existing Genesis Engine written in C# .NET with alternative sound and input >APIs. Just off the top of my head there is FMOD,Earclang, the XNA Framework, >and SlimDX just to name a few options here. While upgrading the engine to use >one or more of these APIs wouldn't take too long I do wonder if that is the >better solution for the project long term. >A better long term solution is to simply move away from C# .NET altogether and >begin converting the code over to C++ now. Two of my projects STFC and USA >Raceway are already in the process of being written in C++, and it would be in >my long term interests to go ahead and switch the Genesis Engine and Mysteries >of the Ancients to c++ now rather than wait to do it later on. >For one thing I've been in the process of converting the Genesis Engine over >to C++ anyway as well as some on going projects like the new STFC and USA >Raceway. Rather than go through the trouble of removing Managed DirectX from >the .NET based engine, upgrading it for this one game, it makes more practical >sense to save myself the time and work by completing the C++ version of the >Genesis Engine. Once that task is completed I could conceivably produce a >better more stable version of Mysteries of the Ancients by using the newer >and hopefully better C++ based game engine. >Another reason why I think Mysteries of the Ancients should be converted to >C++ has to do with long term technical support on my end of things. Ever since >I began releasing games based on Microsoft's .NET technology my number one >technical support issue has been related to downloading, installing, and >upgrading the various .NET components you need such as the .NET Framework and >Managed DirectX. Were i to switch to C++ I could save both you and I a lot of >work downloading, installing, and upgrading libraries as I would primarily use >standard Windows libraries that would be found on any XP, Vista, or Windows 7 >system. You should be able to just install and go without wondering if you >have the absolutely latest DirectX or .NET Framework on your system. I think >this is a much better user friendly setup and hopefully would require a lot >less tech support from me. >Those are just some of the advantages of switching to C++ now. Others would >include better system performance, better security, a wider availability of >game related APIs, etc. Basically, C++ can't be beat when it comes to game >programming, and now is clearly the time to strongly consider using it for >this project as well as my on going and pending projects. >The one question I know many of you are asking is, "how long will all of this >take?" >That is a difficult question to answer. Anything I would say here would be >simply a guess at best. Do to the fact C# .NET is a C-Style language it >obviously has a lot in common with C++, and much of the code could be >converted pretty easily from C# to C++. That would obviously save time. Still >there would be quite a lot of manual coding by hand to fully convert the >engine from one language to the other. How long that would actually take is >anyone's guess. However, if I had to make an educated guess say three or four >months for the conversion process if everything goes well. >Anyway, the point I want to make is that there are lots of ways of resolving >our Managed DirectX issue. In the short term I certainly could upgrade the >.NET based Genesis Engine, finish Mysteries of the Ancients, and have
