Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 12:40:37AM +0200, Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Perhaps you should stop looking at the dialog and just blindly enter > paths. It works surprisingly well. I just told you that this is not true. Then you told me you'd not ignore complaints. Now you tell me what I should do instead and that it would work "surprisingly well." I don't know what "I am smoking", but this very compaint has come up a number of times, and your only reaction is to talk it down. No, it does not at all work surprisingly well. It is *extremely* slow, it hinders, it flickers, it destroys the selection, it pops up a window. It feels like an ugly kludge and certainly does not wor "surprisingly well". But you should know that. We can argue wether it works "surprisingly well" because it's not clear what it means. To me, this surprisingly well working input is an annoyance and slow-down compared to the simple and fast gtk+1.0 selector. Just compare it to your typical shell: path input time: very few seconds. gtk+: ranging form 5+ seconds to minutes (not counting the time it takes to open the dialog). And no flickering in the shell, no extra popups and it does not even destroy your selection. Obvously, the very term "surprisingly well" is meaningless because other people have different definitons for what works well. And you keep ignoring this. Really. Maybe you just don't understand it. I don't know. I am 100% sure it's not malice! One thing is that people, and _many_ people, just want their location entry back, for lots of reasons: discoverability, pastability and so on. But for some reason this simply does not happen. This is an example where lots of people continually *are* being ignored because the new design is supposedly better. > There's no such atttitude. The new file chooser has bugs and they need > to be fixed. Asking us to revert to the old widget is however not an > option. That might be true, but *if* the old widget was better for the users it should be reverted, no question to be asked. Again, there is an *if* in that sentence. (Also, I really don't see the many bugs. I see misdesign, but I would not call that a bug. There were design decisions involved, and these might be good for some uses and bad for others. At least the problems I have with the dialogs do not seem to be bugs at all, but simply design decisions). I often heard argumnts like "it was a lot of work to design and implement", but there is a logical fallacy in that (a red herring): no matter how much work it was, if the result is bad, it is bad. (Now, there are probably good sides to the new file dialog, but none of the new features mean anything to me, so for me it is only negative). You also said file dialogs should go away (in some distant future) and people should use drag&drop. This is another very bad way to force unnatural (for some) workflow on people: for one thing, drag&drop doesn't work very wlel under X, for another thing it is quite difficult to actually "drag&drop" while prpessing your mouse button for some people. Even I who can easily do drga&drop find for example the selection much easier, because I can do things in etween and do not have to press hte button all the time, which improves my aim. The new file dialog gets more and more byzantine, without offering the simple and effective interface that the old dialog. Now I hear in the long term people should switch from it completey. That is the wrong direction, IMHO. -- The choice of a -==- _GNU_ ==-- _ generation Marc Lehmann ---==---(_)__ __ __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / http://schmorp.de/ -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Marc wrote: > One thing is that people, and _many_ people, just want their location > entry back, for lots of reasons: discoverability, pastability and so > on. But for some reason this simply does not happen. Do you want this only in gimp or in all programs that use the gtk+ widgets and dialogs? I think the gtk dialog can be made better and should be improved for all applications, not just gimp. Things I don't like: * In fedora 3 I can type in a filename and it selects that file in the file tree view and it just works. It does not work with full paths so I either have to navigate to the correct directory first (which I usually do using a bookmark) or have to use the hidden feature of Ctrl-L (almost never do this). If one fixes so one can type in any path directly, and not just filenames in the current selected dir, then the Ctrl-L is not needed anymore. * The file tree view does not always have input focus when the dialog is opened. So sometimes when I type in a filename the focus is in the bookmark part of the dialog and it matches a bookmark instead. Also, some keys to fast give bookmarks and filelist input focus would be nice (and :ing to the right widget is too much work). I've not filed any bugs for the above and I don't know if maybe this have already been improved in later versions of gtk+ then what's in FC3. It's simply not a big enough problem for me that I've done that but I still would want these things to be improved. The battle for you to fight is with gtk2 and not with gimp. If gimp started to use another dialog then what other gtk2 programs did, then people would start a fight about that. I also think that some of you in this thread are unfair to Sven. From my point of view he tries to help as much as he can. For you reverting to the old dialog is a solution, for me that would make the dialog a lot worse. I love the bookmark feature. I usually just use a couple of directories in total and I have these as bookmarks. Currently not everyone is happy with the new dialog but hopefully it can be improved so most of us are happy in the future. If not, then what do you suggest? Either way you choose someone will be unhappy. -- /Dennis ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ
On Monday, June 20, 2005, 0:40:37, Sven Neumann wrote: > Perhaps you should stop looking at the dialog and just blindly enter > paths. It works surprisingly well. Not on Windows, and you still have to confirm your selection twice. -- < Jernej Simoncic ><><><><>< http://deepthought.ena.si/ > A lone dime always gets the number nearly right. -- Phone Booth Rule ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:14:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Dennis Bjorklund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Marc wrote: > One thing is that people, and _many_ people, just want their location > entry back, for lots of reasons: discoverability, pastability and so > on. But for some reason this simply does not happen. Do you want this only in gimp or in all programs that use the gtk+ widgets and dialogs? Obviously this is a GTK2 issue. Currently not everyone is happy with the new dialog but hopefully it can be improved so most of us are happy in the future. If not, then what do you suggest? Either way you choose someone will be unhappy. Adding a simple file (text) entry box with tab completion (and a preference to turn on autocompletion) would, IMHO, solve virtually all of the problems. People who don't like using text entry boxes wouldn't have to use it. The ctrl-L popup has lots of problems; not only is it not apparent how to get to it (there's nothing that points at ctrl-L), but it's very clumsy to use (you have to type ctrl-L, type in the filename -- while having to deal with its quirks -- and then click OK twice). And no, bookmarks are NOT a complete solution to this. I have probably 200 bookmarks in Firefox (for example), and finding the right bookmark in the list takes a while (I have to scan through the list and find the one I want). As far as images go, I currently have about 70 directories with images (65 subdirectories for my digital camera, and some miscellaneous ones). The camera ones have 100-200 each (in a lot of cases I have two copies of each image, one the JPEG file extracted from the raw image and another one converted using my hacked-up dcraw), and a couple of the others have 1000 each. Navigating through all of this is a real pain; the ones I'm most interested in I simply memorize. -- Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2 Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project lead for Gimp Print --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works." --Eric Crampton ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Robert L Krawitz wrote: > Adding a simple file (text) entry box with tab completion (and a > preference to turn on autocompletion) would, IMHO, solve virtually all > of the problems. Or just make the current system work better. In my installation you can type in a filename, one just need to add tab-completion to it and make it support full paths. For example, I want to just be able to type /tmp and press enter and then the dialog changes to that dir. I can't do that today. As I said, I don't know what happend in later versions of gtk then what is in FC3, it might already be improved (you can always hope :-). > The ctrl-L popup has lots of problems; not only is it not apparent how > to get to it (there's nothing that points at ctrl-L), but it's very > clumsy to use (you have to type ctrl-L, type in the filename -- while > having to deal with its quirks -- and then click OK twice). No one say that the CTRL-L is any good. It's just a workaround for those of us that are used to tab completion, until we have something better. I hope it can work as explained above in the future. > and find the one I want). As far as images go, I currently have about > 70 directories with images (65 subdirectories for my digital camera, > and some miscellaneous ones). Maybe you need one bookmark to the parent and not 65 bookmarks to all subdirectories, > Navigating through all of this is a real pain; the ones I'm most > interested in I simply memorize. Right, and I make bookmarks of the places I use the most. Anyway, what I said was just that going back to the old dialog removes the bookmark feature that I use a lot. So no matter if you use the new or old dialog one of us will be unhappy. Not that going back seems to be an option, but if it was I would be against it. -- /Dennis ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
On 6/20/05, Dennis Bjorklund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Robert L Krawitz wrote: > > > Adding a simple file (text) entry box with tab completion (and a > > preference to turn on autocompletion) would, IMHO, solve virtually all > > of the problems. > > Or just make the current system work better. In my installation you can > type in a filename, one just need to add tab-completion to it and make it > support full paths. For example, I want to just be able to type /tmp and > press enter and then the dialog changes to that dir. I can't do that > today. > > As I said, I don't know what happend in later versions of gtk then what is > in FC3, it might already be improved (you can always hope :-). Yes, this works fine the the current gtk2, although with drop-down completion rather than tab completion. John ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Dennis Bjorklund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The ctrl-L popup has lots of problems; not only is it not > apparent how to get to it (there's nothing that points at > ctrl-L), but it's very clumsy to use (you have to type ctrl-L, > type in the filename -- while having to deal with its quirks -- > and then click OK twice). No one say that the CTRL-L is any good. It's just a workaround for those of us that are used to tab completion, until we have something better. I hope it can work as explained above in the future. Unless they've changed it further, you still don't have the text entry box visible. > and find the one I want). As far as images go, I currently have > about 70 directories with images (65 subdirectories for my > digital camera, and some miscellaneous ones). Maybe you need one bookmark to the parent and not 65 bookmarks to all subdirectories, I don't really need bookmarks at all for this. I simply want to type /images/dcim/138canon/crw_3888.jpg (to identify a particularly interesting photo of a sunset in Bermuda, for example) without the dialog trying to "helpfully" (and slowly) autocomplete through all of that mess and without having to open a second, modal dialog (I thought that modal dialogs are supposed to be really bad juju?). Actually, the more common issue I deal with as Gutenprint lead developer is that I print an image named "colors4.tif" to a file (usually I name it /tmp/b.prn). I then run a command named "unprint" to generate a .pnm file from the output: unprint < /tmp/b.prn > /tmp/b.pnm following which I want to inspect that file (to see the effect that changes I've made to the Gutenprint source have made certain changes to the output, without having to waste a lot of ink and paper). The problem here is that colors4.tif lives in /images, so if I open a file from that context, I'm in /images whereas I really want to open a file in /tmp (as you can guess, a file named /tmp/b.pnm can be opened very quickly with 11 keystrokes if the dialog doesn't get in my way). A variation I might do is to look at just one color plane. While working on the Epson Stylus Photo R800 with its red and "blue" inks, for example, I might want to see the effect that changes in this code have on the red ink generation: unprint -m 100 < /tmp/b.prn > /tmp/b100.pnm or even for f in 1 2 4 8 100 200 ; do unprint -m $f < /tmp/b.prn > /tmp/b$f.pnm to get individual PNM's of each color plane separately (needless to say, I don't retype that command each time; I use ctrl-p in bash for that purpose). Since /tmp is usually full of all kinds of garbage, scrolling around in there in the new dialog isn't much fun. I sometimes use Cinepaint (taking the hit in extra memory consumption from having both the GIMP and Cinepaint running at the same time) to view these files just because the GTK2 dialog is so unwieldly for my purpose. Again: adding a simple text entry box for the filename, with tab completion but not autocompletion, would entirely solve my problem here! > Navigating through all of this is a real pain; the ones I'm most > interested in I simply memorize. Right, and I make bookmarks of the places I use the most. Anyway, what I said was just that going back to the old dialog removes the bookmark feature that I use a lot. So no matter if you use the new or old dialog one of us will be unhappy. Not that going back seems to be an option, but if it was I would be against it. I have no problem with bookmarks, but I just don't think they're a panacea. The reason I mentioned bookmarks is that the various bug reports, mailing list discussions, etc. seem to promote bookmarks heavily. For my purpose (at least with the GIMP) they're not useful. -- Robert Krawitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2 Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Project lead for Gimp Print --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net "Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works." --Eric Crampton ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005, Robert L Krawitz wrote: > Again: adding a simple text entry box for the filename, with tab > completion but not autocompletion, would entirely solve my problem > here! And I would be happy if you could enter these things in the entry box that pop up when you just start to type. Maybe one should do some hacking and simply make some LD_PRELOAD hack that replaces the dialog in gtk with almost the same one but with an entry box added. Not very pretty but it could help some people.. Maybe a project for someone to play with during some lonely weekend. -- /Dennis ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
GTK+ File Chooser on MS windows (was: Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ)
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Monday, June 20, 2005, 0:40:37, Sven Neumann wrote: > > > Perhaps you should stop looking at the dialog and just blindly enter > > paths. It works surprisingly well. > > Not on Windows, and you still have to confirm your selection twice. Maybe we can at least turn a part of this thread into something useful Jernej, I couldn't reproduce your problem with the bookmarks on windows - they work just fine for me. And your current description is a bit too vague, too - there might be problems and needed improvements, but it's impossible to determine what you're referring to. We should probably take this to a GTK+ list, but first I'd like to figure out why the file chooser seems to work fine on my system and not on yours. Michael -- Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail gratis + 3 Ausgaben stern gratis ++ Jetzt anmelden & testen ++ http://www.gmx.net/de/go/promail ++ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: GTK+ File Chooser on MS windows
On Monday, June 20, 2005, 15:22:12, Michael Schumacher wrote: >>> Perhaps you should stop looking at the dialog and just blindly enter >>> paths. It works surprisingly well. >> Not on Windows, and you still have to confirm your selection twice. > Jernej, I couldn't reproduce your problem with the bookmarks on windows - > they work just fine for me. And your current description is a bit too vague, > too - there might be problems and needed improvements, but it's impossible > to determine what you're referring to. My comment was about the absolute paths actually - on Linux, Ctrl+L dialog is triggered by the / key, too, but this (for obvious reasons) doesn't work on Windows. -- < Jernej Simoncic ><><><><>< http://deepthought.ena.si/ > Secret sources are more credible. -- Nessen's Law ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Re: GTK+ File Chooser on MS windows
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > is triggered by the / key, too, but this (for obvious reasons) doesn't work > on Windows. Actually, it does, at least for me, with GIMP 2.2 and GTK+ 2.6.8. Although if you need to enter a drive letter, after typing the slash, you have to backspace once to erase it, type the drive letter, colon, slash (or backslash), etc. Tab completion works, but you do have to press enter twice after arriving at the file you want. I could try to check if it would be easy to make a colon following a single letter bring up the path entry dialog. --tml ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] GTK+ File Chooser on MS windows
On Monday, June 20, 2005, 18:42:56, Tor Lillqvist wrote: >> is triggered by the / key, too, but this (for obvious reasons) doesn't work >> on Windows. > Actually, it does, at least for me, with GIMP 2.2 and GTK+ 2.6.8. It doesn't for me - either it does nothing, or shows the textbox under a listbox if focus is there. (Gimp 2.2.7 and GTK+ 2.6.8) -- < Jernej Simoncic ><><><><>< http://deepthought.ena.si/ > If at first you don't succeed, transform your data set. -- Law of Computability Applied to Social Science (Brook's Law) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
On Mon, Jun 20, 2005 at 11:14:03AM +0200, Dennis Bjorklund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > One thing is that people, and _many_ people, just want their location > > entry back, for lots of reasons: discoverability, pastability and so > > on. But for some reason this simply does not happen. > > Do you want this only in gimp or in all programs that use the gtk+ > widgets and dialogs? My understanding is that the dialog (mostly) resides in gtk+, and yes, I would want this functionality everywhere. > I think the gtk dialog can be made better and should be improved for all > applications, not just gimp. Agree. > * In fedora 3 I can type in a filename and it selects that file in the > file tree view and it just works. It does not work with full paths so I At leats in gtk+-2.6 (probably earlier, too), you can start typing the path and a location window will pop up. For absolute paths, start with "/". > never do this). If one fixes so one can type in any path directly, and not > just filenames in the current selected dir, then the Ctrl-L is not needed > anymore. That should be done in gtk+-2.6 already. > * The file tree view does not always have input focus when the dialog is > opened. So sometimes when I type in a filename the focus is in the > bookmark part of the dialog and it matches a bookmark instead. I guess if the focus is that inconsistent you should check wether it's still behaving that way in gtk+-2.6 and report it as a bug if it is. > I've not filed any bugs for the above and I don't know if maybe this have > already been improved in later versions of gtk+ then what's in FC3. It's > simply not a big enough problem for me that I've done that but I still > would want these things to be improved. Well, eventually newer versins will arrive at your desktop. If you report it by then that should be fine. The more annoying a problem is the earlier it will be reported (and, unfortunately more often). > The battle for you to fight is with gtk2 and not with gimp. If gimp > started to use another dialog then what other gtk2 programs did, then > people would start a fight about that. I'm not trying to battle with either the gimp or gtk+. I am trying to battle the continuous attitude of neglecting that there are problems for some users. My understanding here is that the new file dialog has nice features that improve it for many users. I am willing to pay the price of having a less optimal interface in favour of supporting "most" (hopefully) other users. The reasoning is that I often have a different workflow than "the majority" so what's good for me is not necessarily good for others. One could change behaviou base don some preferences, but that would priarily be my job to code. As long as I don't code it as I want it, I cannot complain that others don't do it for me. I think I can complain, however, whe other people claim that problems don't exist. > For you reverting to the old dialog is a solution, If I think about it, yes, that would be by far the best solution for me. > for me that would make > the dialog a lot worse. I am fully aware of some features beign useful to others. That's why I always and clearly wrote "me" when refering to the usefulness of any such features. > be improved so most of us are happy in the future. If not, then what do > you suggest? Either way you choose someone will be unhappy. No, you can still go the preferences way and support both (or more) UI interactions. I am not complaining about missing code, I am merely complaining about neglecting that problems exist repeatedly, which unncessarily drives people mad. The most negative side effect of such comments is that you get endless threads on the issue: every comment of the style "it works" will provoke reactions like "no, it doesn't." -- The choice of a -==- _GNU_ ==-- _ generation Marc Lehmann ---==---(_)__ __ __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / http://schmorp.de/ -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: GTK+ File Chooser on MS windows
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My comment was about the absolute paths actually - on Linux, Ctrl+L dialog > is triggered by the / key, too, but this (for obvious reasons) doesn't work > on Windows. Wouldn't it be nice if the same text entry widget used by the treeview when you type "abc" also be used if you type "/tmp". If it also could support tab completion then all is solved and we would not need the CTRL-L dialog. In the end of course someone that want it bad enough have to sit down with the code. -- /Dennis ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ
Hi, Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Would a simple "push-pin" toggle control to optionally stick the > default configuration one way or the other be difficult to > implement? I'd even say that it is impossible to implement. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: FileSave dialog
Hi, Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > English sucks. My brain twitched a fair bit trying to parse that, so > I'm going to re-word it as: > > I don't mind typing when there is no indication of any place > to type, but as soon as I start typing I would like some > feedback in case I make a mistake. But you get feedback, pretty clear feedback even. What's your point? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] FAQ (-: sooner or later :-) KDEification of GIMP
Hi, <[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann )> writes: > I don't know what "I am smoking", but this very compaint has come up > a number of times, and your only reaction is to talk it down. That is a blatant lie. The reaction to these concerns is that me and other GIMP developers have spent a lot of our free time discussing these concern with Federico and other GTK+ developers, entering bug reports and writing patches to fix them. The fact that you completely ignore this and stick to your lies is becoming rather insulting. > No, it does not at all work surprisingly well. It is *extremely* > slow, it hinders, it flickers, it destroys the selection, it pops up > a window. It feels like an ugly kludge and certainly does not wor > "surprisingly well". I cannot reproduce most of your problems. At least not from this description. If you want to be taken seriously, then please come up with serious descriptions and make sure that comprehensive and useful bug reports exist for them. > You also said file dialogs should go away (in some distant future) and > people should use drag&drop. You misunderstood me. I didn't say that DND is going to replace file choosers. I said that sooner or later most people will not even know about the concept of hierarchical file systems. That doesn't mean that they will be dragging in files from file managers. File managers will also cease to exist (at least for a large user group). Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
