Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
Hi, On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 23:35 -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote: Simon, where does that forbid one to add words like thanks, please, would and etc... to even a short answer, like a FAQ URL??? Feel free to add those, no one forbids it. But seriously, the question was stupid and the answer was short but helpful. We could as well have ignored the question because it was unappropriate for a developer list where some basic research before posting can be expected. Don't forget that this list is a place for GIMP developers, not a help forum. Joao, I am seriously offended by some of the things you said in your mail. But I will assume that this is a misinterpretation just like you are obviously misinterpreting the intents of some people here. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
Von: Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris [EMAIL PROTECTED] You see, the GIMP is not exactly with exceeding developer resources, and every single person I see trying to approach the project either here or over bugzilla gets a rude answer that might have turned then away for good. There are canned messages in Bugzilla. In my opinion, they are a bit too friendly - I know for sure that I'd get annoyed by ten Thanks for bugs that are closed as duplicates. Their main problem, is that besides a firendly Thanks and some explanatory text about why the bug is in its current state now, there's no further helpful information, like this bug is a duplicate[...] you can check for existing bugs at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/browse.cgi?...;. I've talked to one of the Bugzilla maintainers about this, but so far nothing has happened (he didn't make any prmises, to be fair). Maybe this should be proposed again. Example: from: we don't take bug reports against outdated development versions anyway. to: Please, post bugs only using the latest development version. We do have a list etiquette at http://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html. I'd like to suggest that it is moved above the mailing lists, maybe it will be read more often then. We even have a paragraph there about the situation above: Check your facts. Before reporting problems, check again. Make sure you are following the intructions correctly and that your version is not old[...] Maybe we should advertise it a bit more - standard gimp.org message footers, anyone? In addition, I think that the list etiquette should point to the smart questions guide: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Yes, I know that some think that this document is rude, but it has been incredibly useful for me. I always go back and read it when I find myself asking too many simple questions per time frame. HTH, Michael -- Feel free - 5 GB Mailbox, 50 FreeSMS/Monat ... Jetzt GMX ProMail testen: www.gmx.net/de/go/mailfooter/promail-out ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Monday 19 March 2007 08:11, Simon Budig wrote: IMHO, refraining from posts like this could greatly improve the atmosphere of this list. It is really up to you to help somebody with answering his question or not to help, but this answer only hurts and helps nothing. I don't agree with you there. ... (remaining ranst tossed on bascket) Simon, where does that forbid one to add words like thanks, please, would and etc... to even a short answer, like a FAQ URL??? Nothing forbids that. The absence of these things does not make an answer rude though, which is the point I am arguing. I did hope that I made that clear in the rest of the message, but since you perceived that as a rant I seem to have chosen the wrong words. As I said: there are other messages that can be interpreted as very abrupt or curt, no doubt about this. And I really think that it makes sense to reconsider certain standard sentences, especially - as Sven explained - there certainly is no hurt intended. It is not really hard - and that is to you Mitch, you Sven, you Nomis, to simply rememebr the person on the other sidee is sitll a human being, is not it? Since you were referring to me specifically as well, I'd like to ask you to point out to me when/where I have chosen poor words or disrespect towards the other human being. Feel free to discuss this on the list although private mail probably is more appropriate. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 23:35 -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote: It is not really hard - and that is to you Mitch, you Sven, you Nomis, to simply rememebr the person on the other sidee is sitll a human being, is not it? Not less human for having less abilities to compile/hack complicated software projects, much less for simply not knowing how to do so. Come on, that is simply a rude accusation. Definitely more rude than giving a small check for yourself to a question that clearly shows that the person did not do the slightest bit of work by itself. I don't see the point in answering questions that are *trivial* for *everybody* to answer themselves, regardless of abilities or experience. Yet each time such questions come up, somebody steps forward and answers them. That is simply no help at all for the person who asked the question. A you can find out yourself trivially is infinitely more helpful than doing the people's work for them. whatever... --mitch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:28:49 +0100, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Simon, where does that forbid one to add words like thanks, please, would and etc... to even a short answer, like a FAQ URL??? Nothing forbids that. The absence of these things does not make an answer rude though, which is the point I am arguing. The absence of thanks may be perceived as rude, especially in the context of a bug report closed as WONTFIX, INVALID or NOTGNOME... Let's take the perspective of the bug reporter: if you report a bug or suggest an improvement and your report is rejected by the developers, then your initial impression will be slightly negative. A neutral explanation may be perceived as rude because you took the trouble to find out how to report GIMP bugs, you registered in Bugzilla, you spent the time to write the bug report and the only thing you get in return is a too brief message telling you that your bug report was rejected. Contrary to what Michael wrote in another message, I like the canned replies in Bugzilla because most of them start by thanking the reporter. Although I agree that they could be improved and could include two lines about how to avoid duplicates in the future or how to find some FAQs and so on, they are good enough in most cases. These thanks help to offset the negative impression that the reporters might have after seeing their bug reports rejected or marked as a duplicates of another one. In summary, never assume that a short message is neutral. The context may lead to a negative perception of your message so it is useful to compensate for that by being more polite than usual. And yes, this may mean thanking the 100th clueless user who suggests again to support more than 8 bits per channel or to improve the user interface by implementing some kind of MDI model. -Raphaël ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
There is a practice within OO bugzilla management (at least with some QA persons) to 1. thank the bug reporter for his work - whether it is useless from a developer's POV or not. 2. if it is a well-known bug or the problem should be known from FAQ or other online document, the link to this document or to the original bug is presented. As I use OO from its first public builds, I can say such an approach is much appreciated and inspires a reporter to proceed with the investigations or with the program itself. I definitely do not want to offend anybody on this list as often I am in a developer's shoes myself. Raphaël Quinet wrote: Let's take the perspective of the bug reporter: if you report a bug or suggest an improvement and your report is rejected by the developers, then your initial impression will be slightly negative. A neutral explanation may be perceived as rude because you took the trouble to find out how to report GIMP bugs, you registered in Bugzilla, you spent the time to write the bug report and the only thing you get in return is a too brief message telling you that your bug report was rejected. Contrary to what Michael wrote in another message, I like the canned replies in Bugzilla because most of them start by thanking the reporter. Although I agree that they could be improved and could include two lines about how to avoid duplicates in the future or how to find some FAQs and so on, they are good enough in most cases. These thanks help to offset the negative impression that the reporters might have after seeing their bug reports rejected or marked as a duplicates of another one. -- With respect Alexander Rabtchevich ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enhancement Proposal: Add a temporary magnifier
On 3/19/07, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We aren't using cairo yet. But I don't see what you would want to use gdk_draw_drawable() for. OK - I have more to learn! app/dialogs/dialogs.c, IIRC Thanks. Chris ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:21:23 +0100, Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is not really hard - and that is to you Mitch, you Sven, you Nomis, to simply remember the person on the other side is still a human being, is not it? Not less human for having less abilities to compile/hack complicated software projects, much less for simply not knowing how to do so. Come on, that is simply a rude accusation. Is it rude? It seems perfectly reasonable and polite to me. Interestingly Sven seems to find this highly offensive as well. May be you think taking offense somehow negates the criticism. It seems you both are not too good a taking what you give out to others and quick to take offence where it was not even intended. Simon , who I cant remember as being rude or off-hand to anyone, seems confused yet polite, not offended. The post that sparked this thread seemed fair to me, it was a lazy question that got a helpful but deservedly terse reply, but there have been many examples of ppl being badly received and I've already commented on that myself. It's one reason why the number of contributors to gimp is limited. It does nothing to further gimp. I agree with Alexander's comments. I have submitted bugs to a number of projects that I use and have nearly always been well received. I can only agree that getting a polite response , even if the report is mistaken in some way, builds good will. I come away with a positive impression and I get more enjoyment from the software. I'm more inclined to recommend it to others. gg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re:Tools
Acually the thing that struck me was that the answer from Mitch was not only a little rude (which is unusual for Mitch), it was also a bad answer -- it doesn't make sense to download the source code just to find out what language it is written in. Now if the first thing that occurs to *Mitch* is wrong, then the question is probably not quite as trivial as it seems. In fact, if you take obvious approaches, such as googling for gimp source code, you don't easily learn the language it is written in. Moral: don't be rude unless you *know* that the person you're answering has done something bad. (And even then, rudeness marks you as an amateur.) -- Bill __ __ __ __ Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enhancement Proposal: Add a temporary magnifier
Chris, First off, I want to apologize - it's not my intention to be combative, and I can be a total ass sometimes. don't worry, I am also fired up about this one. here is why: people have talked to me a week or more ago on the irc along the line of: what's the big deal, one way or another will do. here is the big deal: for my pov the dockable magnifier is just-another-feature, it will make some people happy in some situations. the pop-up loupe however, has the potential to be a transformational feature. It has the potential (when properly designed) to fully transform the way most people work with GIMP in work-macroscopic/change-microscopic situations, that go way beyond the mentioned setting selections pixel-precise. saul on the irc made this film (thanks): http://flashingtwelve.brickfilms.com/GIMP/Temp/loupe-demo.gif I could imagine here some dust spotting going on, on a macroscopic scale the photog decides what really needs to be spotted, pops up the loupe and makes a precise change. I would spec some things different than saul shows us here: enlarged area much closer to the smaller mouse area; semitransparent frame to make the tool less obstructive; real tool display in the enlarged area. Secondly, I wonder if we should make two feature requests: the first for a dockable magnifier with options, and the second for a key-triggered pop-up version of the same magnifier. Should there be no objections, I'll file the first request in BZ. practically speaking, this will have to wait for cairo, and I see you are already off the mark. Peter, do you have any problems with writing up the second request? Sounds like you have a clearer vision of how it should be implemented. I am not sure if Sven wants another feature request in bugzilla. If so I will write it. --ps principal user interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Come on, that is simply a rude accusation. Is it rude? It seems perfectly reasonable and polite to me. Interestingly Sven seems to find this highly offensive as well. May be you think taking offense somehow negates the criticism. It seems you both are not too good a taking what you give out to others and quick to take offence where it was not even intended. One key aspect is Joao's comment that outsiders preceive the project as rude -- and he gave several very recent examples of why this perception exists. Even if an original question seems rude or stupid, answering it in a rude or brusque manner creates a perception that GIMP is not a friendly project for outsiders. Maybe that's the intent -- to set up a gauntlet that weeds out any potential participants who might be lazy or thin skinned. If so, no problem. But if you actually want lots of new participants, then how other people perceive the project matters. Being perceived as friendly takes some effort -- and sometimes it means trying to seem friendly even when you don't feel that way, and even when you feel justified in being abrupt because the question was lazy. Simon , who I cant remember as being rude or off-hand to anyone, seems confused yet polite, not offended. Yes, it's ironic to see Simon targeted in this discussion -- he is not one of the main offenders here and is consistently friendly and helpful in general. Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris writes: Simon, where does that forbid one to add words like thanks, please, would and etc... to even a short answer, like a FAQ URL??? Is there a FAQ URL? There's nothing linked from the top level of gimp.org. There is a FAQ page on the wiki, but it begins with a disclaimer that it's out of date and people should go to the GIMP manual instead (which doesn't answer most of the FAQ questions). I wish the person who added that out-of-date notice had actually mentioned *which* answers were out of date, which would make it a lot easier for volunteers to find and update them. And the FAQ doesn't have anything on the language(s) used to write GIMP. I know it sounds like a stupid question -- that was my reaction too -- but it's not the first time I've seen it asked on the mailing lists, so maybe it belongs in the FAQ after all, along with how to take a quick look at GIMP code (viewcvs) without downloading the whole tarball. Except I'm hesitant to run off and register for the wiki so that I can add it, given that it's not linked from the main GIMP site, no one refers to it and the page itself discourages anyone from using it. If there's no easy-to-find FAQ document, then is it fair to get mad at people for asking FAQs? -- ...Akkana Beginning GIMP: From Novice to Professional: http://gimpbook.com ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla
I really would like to add my point of view to this discussion, sorry for messing up threading (I had daily digests until just now) I understand the reply was not in any way meant to be offensive mitch, but I, as I have stated before on IRC, also think that not very rarely replies to people who might want to contribute to GIMP has been a bit too rude. I really can't possibly see why it would be sane to reply to someone that asks how GIMP works that look it up for yourself. We have used computer for decades, of course we could look this up for an to us unknown project in a couple of minutes. But that is not relevant, what is relevant is to atract as many people as possible to the GIMP developers, and we will not succeed if we answer questions with look it up for yourself. Some come with the argument well we don't want to answer stupid questions. Fine, you don't have to, but why do you have to act in a way that risks scaring possible new contributors away? GIMP is a widely used piece of software, if one compares to other pieces of FLOSS, there are often many more contributors at other, similar projects. Doesn't anyone find that strange? I can relate to my self, my first experiences with the GIMP devs were very rude, I was trying to help and came to the IRC channel to ask a couple of questions and getting acquinted with the people there, only to find out that I was being called stupid (yes, that was the word). That almost made me think fuck the GIMP devs, well I actually did think that way because I didnt give a shit for a couple of months, until I decided to give it another go. Basicaly the main reason I contribute to GIMP is because of GIMP, and not because I felt I was wanted, now that I have doing a bit of work I notice a GREAT difference in the way I am treated, if new people were treated in the same way, I think we would have made great progress at getting new contributors. I really think it is sad that there isn't more active contributors, because to me that shows the rudeness have been going on for quite a while, otherwise there would be far more contributors. This last paragraph is of course just guessing... Martin Nordholts On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 23:35 -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote: It is not really hard - and that is to you Mitch, you Sven, you Nomis, to simply rememebr the person on the other sidee is sitll a human being, is not it? Not less human for having less abilities to compile/hack complicated software projects, much less for simply not knowing how to do so. Come on, that is simply a rude accusation. Definitely more rude than giving a small check for yourself to a question that clearly shows that the person did not do the slightest bit of work by itself. I don't see the point in answering questions that are *trivial* for *everybody* to answer themselves, regardless of abilities or experience. Yet each time such questions come up, somebody steps forward and answers them. That is simply no help at all for the person who asked the question. A you can find out yourself trivially is infinitely more helpful than doing the people's work for them. whatever... --mitch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
(oops, sent privately: resending to list) On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:35:30 -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You see, the GIMP is not exactly with exceeding developer resources, and every single person I see trying to approach the project either here or over bugzilla gets a rude answer that might have turned then away for good. Examples from the last 48 hours include a help yourself (bug #329020 - 2007-03-20), we don't take bug reports against outdated development versions anyway. (bug #420170, 2007-03-19) To be honest, as a lurker, I find the whole let's endlessly debate how to be polite to users a huge putoff, and indicative of problems within the GIMP developer community. Much more so than a terse response, or even a slightly rude You have a brain, now use it. Here's a hint style of response. Let's just end this with Try to be more polite, and provide pointers on the correct thing to do instead of just saying no. This whole debate is a waste of time, effort, and I'm probably not helping by posting this. Please, everyone, just stop acting childish, this isn't worth debating. /me gets back to lurking. -- Bare feet magnetize sharp metal objects so they point upward from the floor -- especially in the dark. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzil la - was: Re: Tools
Hi Mitch and everybody! On Tuesday 20 March 2007, Michael Natterer wrote: On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 23:35 -0300, Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris wrote: It is not really hard - and that is to you Mitch, you Sven, you Nomis, to simply rememebr the person on the other sidee is sitll a human being, is not it? Not less human for having less abilities to compile/hack complicated software projects, much less for simply not knowing how to do so. Come on, that is simply a rude accusation. Definitely more rude than giving a small check for yourself to a question that clearly shows that the person did not do the slightest bit of work by itself. I don't see the point in answering questions that are *trivial* for *everybody* to answer themselves, regardless of abilities or experience. Yet each time such questions come up, somebody steps forward and answers them. That is simply no help at all for the person who asked the question. A you can find out yourself trivially is infinitely more helpful than doing the people's work for them. Actually I also think it was too rude. Let's analyze it: On Wed, 2007-03-14 at 12:47 -0700, Federico Alcantara wrote: Hi I am interested in knowning if Gimp is written in C/C++, and which tools are needed to compile, debug, and test it? What about downloading it and checking yourself? ciao, --mitch 1. You didn't say hi. 2. You phrased it as a question that implied the original poster should have thought abuot it himself, instead of giving an answer. If I were you I would have written the following: Hi Federico! The core GIMP code is mostly written in ANSI C. You can learn about its source code and how to compile it by checking out the source according to the instructions in the following URL, and then looking at the HACKING, INSTALL and README files: http://www.gimp.org/source/ Regards, Shlomi Fish It took me 10 minutes to write. However, I believe Alpár's and Joao commentary was induced by the general trend of treating people on this list (and potential future contributors) rudely or impatiently. I've noticed this general trend here too after someone made me more aware of it. I believe the GIMP could have been much better off today, if it weren't for all the antagonism that the developers' have created. I mean, sure after Spencer Kimball and Peter Mattis left the project and most of the other original developers left to work on GNOME, very few developers were left. But since then the community of FOSS developers grew by leaps and bounds, and there shouldn't have been any problem finding much more potential developers than we have today. There are plenty of fish in the sea. Let's look at Inkscape for a counter example. They have been around for a much shorter time than the GIMP, but have made remarkable progress, because the atomosphere they have is much better. If they could do it, why can't we? Only because we reject potential developers. Another good example for a well-run project is Subversion. I've been personally involved in developing it, and it is run in an excellent manner. It already has 126 commiters (exlcuding some contributors without a commit bit), and is very sophisticated, solid and successful. It is probably the most popular open-source alternative to CVS, and is used by many projects including by GIMP and the rest of GNOME. Again none of this would have been possible without the core developers working hard on creating a good atomosophere. And Karl Fogel, a core Subversion developer have written a book about exactly that: http://producingoss.com/ (Freely available online) It would probably make a good read. Also of interest is this interview I conducted with Ben Collins-Sussman (another Subversion developer) where we touched upon the topic: http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/interviews/sussman.html Now, a few possible ways I can see to handle the situation: 1. Create a page with some FAQs and canned responses in both HTML and plain text formats. I volunteer to prepare and maintain this page. I also get sick of reading more You should change the name of the GIMP, it is an insult in English, When is CMYK/16-bit/whatever support coming?, etc. questions, but I believe we can at least answer them politely. 2. Have a system of self-moderation. Let the messages of developers with a tendency to be rude and untactful pass through a small forward of friendliness experts for approval and correction. IF the experts are unhappy, they'll tell the senders to edit them and re-send them. Note that I'm not necessarily suggesting we force it down the developers' throat, although it may not be a bad idea either. 3. One good trend that I noticed is that Carol Spears has stopped posting messages on the mail lists. Hopefully this trend will continue into the future, because she's been doing a lot of damage previously. 4. Otherwise have the developers pay attention and try to be as
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re:Tools
On Tue, 2007-03-20 at 10:00 -0700, William Skaggs wrote: Acually the thing that struck me was that the answer from Mitch was not only a little rude (which is unusual for Mitch), it was also a bad answer -- it doesn't make sense to download the source code just to find out what language it is written in. Um, sorry? If one wants to know what language an application is written in and what tools are needed to build it. The immediately obvious step is to simply download it and look. Why would somebody google for that? Now if the first thing that occurs to *Mitch* is wrong, then the question is probably not quite as trivial as it seems. In fact, if you take obvious approaches, such as googling for gimp source code, you don't easily learn the language it is written in. That is IMHO a totally non-obvious approach. Moral: don't be rude unless you *know* that the person you're answering has done something bad. (And even then, rudeness marks you as an amateur.) Thank you. I didn't think that response was rude. Granted, it lacked a thanks perhaps. But all I said was telling the guy what *I* think is the most obvious approach to learn what he was asking for. AND to *learn* that all by himself, which is far better than just getting an answer to a trivial question. I think we are overdoing this discussion here. There are other cases of real rudeness around. Apparently it all depends on the point of view. For example I consider it very rude to accuse somebody of not seeing somebody else as human being. I think I'll stop contributing to this discussion for today, or I'll turn into the rude ass again... ciao, --mitch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:21:23 +0100, Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is not really hard - and that is to you Mitch, you Sven, you Nomis, to simply remember the person on the other side is still a human being, is not it? Not less human for having less abilities to compile/hack complicated software projects, much less for simply not knowing how to do so. Come on, that is simply a rude accusation. Is it rude? It seems perfectly reasonable and polite to me. Actually I too think that this is - uhm - not very carefully worded. It implies that we actually do judge people only by their coding abilities and/or cluelessness. Which is something I personally do not like to hear about me (because I don't think it is true). To be a bit more constructive here: If our way of communicating gives the *impression* that we judge people by their coding skills only, then we should try to work on this. I think that (especially in the bug reports) there are subtle things that already would improve a lot: - replace obviously with apparently. - replace useless with not helpful - sprinkle more please and thanks there are probably other simple examples that would kind of defuse the perceived rudeness. To me it is important though that we avoid the corporate speak sound of some other projects, which in itselfs also creates a barriere between the users and the developers as well. As for the missing canned responses - it probably is fairly easy to whip up a small javascript bookmarklet, that fills in the comment section of a bugzilla entry, if one is really ambitious one could write an firefox extension that automatically adds these to the context menu. But really - a text file on disk with all of these would suffice. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was:?Re: Tools
Hi. Shlomi Fish ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: It took me 10 minutes to write. Oh wow. Is it just me or is this really a *lot* of time? Personally I'd consider answering 6 lazy questions per hour a waste of time. (Sorry for not replying to all of your mail - this just stuck out to me) Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla - was: Re: Tools
yep, Gimp's team has its own reputation : not very opened to outside things. may be this is not completely true, for examplegimp's team has been opened to join LGM instead of going on with the GimpCons. I guess nobody is responsible and everyone can be. The fact can Gimp is a quite huge and complex software, and now existing for a long time, is the first explanation for not seeing new contributors. Everyone trust gimp's team quality ;) But it is true that Gimp has many user. The trouble is how to have feedback from users (this is one of the FOSS basis), and in the same be able to evaluate the quality of the feedback without judging. As a graphic designer, and with all the efforts i like to do, i cannot reach the level is needed to expose seriously the bug i get. I learned thisyear how to do a gdb, and i'm following Gimp/Scribus/Inkscape each for years now. And i succeed to do this backtrace only because Bryce and ACSpike took two night to explain me. And even when we report, it is hard to see if our bug is an existing or a new, just because we are never completely sure it is a bug! Just have in mind that any other user will be less involved than i am, and that, for them, doing a report is a very impressive task. Even if it is bad reported. it is sure that the more gimp is used, the more the gimp will receive junk reports. But is it a good option to say (as i heard recently) that gimp's team never wishes to have more users. Now that Krita is existing and people taking interest in it, may be the Gimp it self could be in danger and IMO that could be a big loss for FOSS. I don't have any advise to give to contributors, and noone to blame. I know that i've sometimes been hurt by some rude behavior (or what i interpreted as so). I'm convinced so this doesn't really hurt me, and i don't forget that i'm using only FOSS that are mostly coded by volunteer, and i'm sure i don't thank them enough for that. But i guess other people will react another and just turn the head. pygmee ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enhancement Proposal: Add a temporary magnifier
Peter, I'm glad you've become the ambassador for this. Your description of a loupe is basically what I was proposing in my original bugzilla proposal #409802 ( http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=409802 ). Rather than add another proposal, why not just flesh out the details of your vision on that bug report? I hope enough others agree that this will dramatically change the way work is done in GIMP to make this a reality. . Mark --- peter sikking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, First off, I want to apologize - it's not my intention to be combative, and I can be a total ass sometimes. don't worry, I am also fired up about this one. here is why: people have talked to me a week or more ago on the irc along the line of: what's the big deal, one way or another will do. here is the big deal: for my pov the dockable magnifier is just-another-feature, it will make some people happy in some situations. the pop-up loupe however, has the potential to be a transformational feature. It has the potential (when properly designed) to fully transform the way most people work with GIMP in work-macroscopic/change-microscopic situations, that go way beyond the mentioned setting selections pixel-precise. saul on the irc made this film (thanks): http://flashingtwelve.brickfilms.com/GIMP/Temp/loupe-demo.gif I could imagine here some dust spotting going on, on a macroscopic scale the photog decides what really needs to be spotted, pops up the loupe and makes a precise change. I would spec some things different than saul shows us here: enlarged area much closer to the smaller mouse area; semitransparent frame to make the tool less obstructive; real tool display in the enlarged area. Secondly, I wonder if we should make two feature requests: the first for a dockable magnifier with options, and the second for a key-triggered pop-up version of the same magnifier. Should there be no objections, I'll file the first request in BZ. practically speaking, this will have to wait for cairo, and I see you are already off the mark. Peter, do you have any problems with writing up the second request? Sounds like you have a clearer vision of how it should be implemented. I am not sure if Sven wants another feature request in bugzilla. If so I will write it. --ps principal user interaction architect man + machine interface works http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Rudeness on gimp devel and bugzilla
You're right, and I appologize for drawing hasty/wrong conclusions, my prejudices were wrong. Check out this awesome Ruby script though, it produces some rather interesting output nevertheless. Martin :Manish Singh skrev: On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 07:36:52PM +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote: GIMP is a widely used piece of software, if one compares to other pieces of FLOSS, there are often many more contributors at other, similar projects. Doesn't anyone find that strange? I don't believe this is true. Can you back this up with some evidence? -Yosh dev-community-test.rb Description: application/ruby ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
