Re: [Gegl-developer] Re: [Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
Hi, Michael Schumacher wrote: Daniel Rogers wrote: To be a little more clear: I need volunteers to be an initial board of directors. Might be an important question: does one have to live in the US to be able to become a director? (and/or president, secreatary, treasurer, ...) No. For example, several of the GNOME Foundation board members are not in the US. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
Carol Spears wrote: On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:44:49AM +0200, Marc A. Lehmann wrote: On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 08:00:17PM -0700, Daniel Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've put it here: http://www.phasevelocity.org/bylaws.doc These bylaws Woaw, the bylaws for a free software organisation, written in a proprietary microsoft format! this summed up my feelings very well. Might be another reason for lack of feedback. did they discuss file formats with you when you discussed this at the gimp convention? Maybe something about this is in the minutes of the last GIMPCon. Anyway, are there any suggestions (or requirements?) for an official format for all TGF documents. PDF seems reasonable. HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org| IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Sodipodi http://sodipodi.sf.net | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/sodipodi ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
Michael Schumacher wrote: Carol Spears wrote: On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:44:49AM +0200, Marc A. Lehmann wrote: On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 08:00:17PM -0700, Daniel Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've put it here: http://www.phasevelocity.org/bylaws.doc These bylaws Woaw, the bylaws for a free software organisation, written in a proprietary microsoft format! this summed up my feelings very well. Might be another reason for lack of feedback. Dude. The lawyer gave me doc. Open office read it fine. I didn't think it woudl be a problem. I used open office to make a pdf. It's at http://www.phasevelocity.org/bylaws.pdf did they discuss file formats with you when you discussed this at the gimp convention? Maybe something about this is in the minutes of the last GIMPCon. Anyway, are there any suggestions (or requirements?) for an official format for all TGF documents. PDF seems reasonable. She is just trying to goad me, so I tried to ignore her. It is not an official document yet, but yes, I agree that PDF is reasonable for all TGF documents. -- Dan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
Daniel Rogers wrote: So, I noticed the resounding silence surrounding this thread. Is anyone still interested in a foundation? I went into this foundation thing thinking I had support from the community. I cannot do this all by myself. The Foundation is about getting involved. If noone wishes to get involved, then there is nothing left I can do. Here are the things left to do. Within a week I need to get the parts in red of the draft bylaws fleshed out at at least the majority satisfiaction of the community. In addition to the red parts, the membership section needs to be writtin. The week is gone, obviously, but this still needs to be done. I just lose legal support for a while after a few days, which is ok. I just slows things down a bit. Do these issues interest anyone in particular? I need to appoint an initial board, whose job will be to set up a membership system, start collecting members, and allow those members to vote in a non-interim board (any takers?) To be a little more clear: I need volunteers to be an initial board of directors. I need to send in the corporate paperwork to the IRS (with the filing fee) and wait a few months for the IRS to send some questions answer those questions, and wait a few more months to get our non-profit status approved. Instead of all this though, I've been talking to Tim Ney about having the GNOME Foundation take a more active role in supporting the GIMP. If GNOME was willing to do this, this would probably be a good option for us. Gnome already has the infrastruction and ability to act as a non-profit, as well as plenty of corporate suppport. What do people think of this plan? Again, to be a little more clear. GNOME would like to support us more than just in name. All we (e.g. more than just me) have to do is say yes. It is unclear, at this point, how exactly GNOME would be involved with The GIMP, but those details could be worked out. Does this interest anyone? Is anyone outright opposed (and why)? -- Dan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
Hi, Daniel Rogers wrote: Instead of all this though, I've been talking to Tim Ney about having the GNOME Foundation take a more active role in supporting the GIMP. If GNOME was willing to do this, this would probably be a good option for us. Gnome already has the infrastruction and ability to act as a non-profit, as well as plenty of corporate suppport. What do people think of this plan? Again, to be a little more clear. GNOME would like to support us more than just in name. All we (e.g. more than just me) have to do is say yes. It is unclear, at this point, how exactly GNOME would be involved with The GIMP, but those details could be worked out. Does this interest anyone? Is anyone outright opposed (and why)? For the record, I'm in favour of this approach. There is no real benefit in setting up a foundation structure which will just be a fundraising structure, causing some people lots of work and cost, when there is an organisation prepared to partner us which already has all of this in place. Of course, that does mean that we will be taking a small piece of a bigger pie, rather than having our own independent revenue source, but since we currently have no revenue source, that won't make a big difference. Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary, Lyon, France E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gegl-developer] Re: [Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
Daniel Rogers wrote: Daniel Rogers wrote: So, I noticed the resounding silence surrounding this thread. Is anyone still interested in a foundation? I went into this foundation thing thinking I had support from the community. I cannot do this all by myself. The Foundation is about getting involved. If noone wishes to get involved, then there is nothing left I can do. Well, I started to read the bylaws and was overwhelmed a bit. Being totally unfamiliar with stuff like this, I found it a bit too much to read, comprehend and evaluate in one week... maybe this happened to others as well? I need to appoint an initial board, whose job will be to set up a membership system, start collecting members, and allow those members to vote in a non-interim board (any takers?) To be a little more clear: I need volunteers to be an initial board of directors. Might be an important question: does one have to live in the US to be able to become a director? (and/or president, secreatary, treasurer, ...) Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org| IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Sodipodi http://sodipodi.sf.net | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/sodipodi ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
On Sat, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:44:49AM +0200, Marc A. Lehmann wrote: On Fri, Apr 23, 2004 at 08:00:17PM -0700, Daniel Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've put it here: http://www.phasevelocity.org/bylaws.doc These bylaws Woaw, the bylaws for a free software organisation, written in a proprietary microsoft format! this summed up my feelings very well. did they discuss file formats with you when you discussed this at the gimp convention? carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] more GIMP foundation stuff
Hi again, I have almost completed all the paperwork to get The GIMP Foundation up and running. The last slightly compliciated bit left is to get the bylaws finished. I have a draft version of the bylaws that need a few gaps filled in. I've put it here: http://www.phasevelocity.org/bylaws.doc These bylaws get sent with the rest of the paperwork (and the filing fee) to the IRS to get tax-exempt status. This copy of the bylaws is pretty standard stuff, with parts that need filling in, highlighted in red. We are, of course, free to change the bylaws at anytime in the future (within certain limits), but we do need a copy of the bylaws, and a first board meeting held within the rules of those bylaws, where the bylaws are formally approved by the board. Here are the things left to do. Within a week I need to get the parts in red of the draft bylaws fleshed out at at least the majority satisfiaction of the community. In addition to the red parts, the membership section needs to be writtin. I need to appoint an initial board, whose job will be to set up a membership system, start collecting members, and allow those members to vote in a non-interim board (any takers?) I need to send in the corporate paperwork to the IRS (with the filing fee) and wait a few months for the IRS to send some questions answer those questions, and wait a few more months to get our non-profit status approved. Instead of all this though, I've been talking to Tim Ney about having the GNOME Foundation take a more active role in supporting the GIMP. If GNOME was willing to do this, this would probably be a good option for us. Gnome already has the infrastruction and ability to act as a non-profit, as well as plenty of corporate suppport. What do people think of this plan? -- Daniel P.S. Real life is taken over recently. I have a new child on the way, my wife is almost finished with school, I'm looking at grad schools, and I have a practical need to focus my work on the bits that I get paid a regular salery for. This means I have very little time for gimp related stuff recently. In fact, I'm looking to get TGF (or whatever this becomes) handed off to a competent interim board as soon as I can. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
On 8 Mar 2004, at 23:09, Kelly Martin wrote: Sven Neumann wrote: If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit. The FSF can't sue someone unless it owns at least some part of the code in question. The FSF's solution to this has been to seek assignment of copyright. Do you want to assign the GIMP copyrights to the FSF? Sven cannot assign _all_ GIMP copyrights to the FSF, since he does not own them. He can, however, assign _his_ copyrights to the FSF (as can anybody else, for that matter). (This is undoubtedly what you meant, I am just stressing it to clarify.) -- branko collin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
Hello, First of all I'd like to thank Daniel for putting a lot of work into investigating what needs to be done in order to launch The GIMP Foundation. On Mon, 2004-03-08 at 15:58, Daniel Rogers wrote: THINGS TO BE DECIDED [snip] 1. Will TGF have members? I am talking about members with voting privledges, like I described above. (my vote is yes, btw) Yes, if we decide to form TGF I believe we should allow the foundation to have members. 2. Should the membership be paid? (my vote is yes, for like $50 a year or some toher small amount. It helps for tax purposes). How does paid membership help for tax purposes? What exactly will the benefit of paid membership be? 3. Should the membership have additional rights? Such as...? Sincerely, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
Hi all, Sven Neumann wrote: Also, so far the FSF has done a great job at funding our developer conferences. So we should really have good reasons to form our own foundation since I don't expect the FSF to grant any more fundings as soon as The GIMP Foundation has been created. This is not a vote against the TGF; it's just something to keep in mind... I don't see why this should be the case, unless we have a sufficient revenu stream to fund ourselves. In any case, to have any revenu at all we need an organisation and a bank account, since a private individual accepting donations for a non-existent organisation isn't very professional or reassuring, never mind the fact that it opens up, as Dan said, channels of liability for the individual involved. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
Nathan Carl Summers wrote: Is this required to be in person, or is conference call/irc/email/etc sufficient? Furthermore, is it possible for board members to be reimbursed for expenses? I can see this being a major obstacle for non-us residents otherwise. Kelly already answered the first part, but yes. If TGF has money, it's board members can be reimbursed for the expenses of attending a meeting (including phone bills, even), without destroying it's non-profit status. -- Dan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
Nathan Carl Summers wrote: If you are a board member you must: Attend board meetings. Is this required to be in person, or is conference call/irc/email/etc sufficient? Furthermore, is it possible for board members to be reimbursed for expenses? I can see this being a major obstacle for non-us residents otherwise. Most states require that such meetings take place so that all present may hear one another. This permits conference calls, but excludes IRC and email. Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf. That's a touchy area. Copyright law in the United States requires that a suit to enforce copyright be brought in the name of the party in interest. (The RIAA is running into problems with this because they're not the party in interest of any of the copyrights they're suing on.) There really isn't a good way around the assignment issue. Kelly ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] more gimp foundation stuff
Daniel Rogers wrote: 1. I heard that some people have been asked to be on the board, why weren't the developers consulted? I'm a developer, why wasn't I asked? Who are these board members? Keep in mind that developers will not necessarily make good board members. The sort of decisions that a board of directors has to make really don't have that much in common with those made by a developer. Developers need to be involved in the operation of the foundation, but it's unrealistic to expect a majority of the board to be active developers. It might even be counterproductive. Kelly ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
Sven Neumann wrote: If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit. The FSF can't sue someone unless it owns at least some part of the code in question. The FSF's solution to this has been to seek assignment of copyright. Do you want to assign the GIMP copyrights to the FSF? Kelly ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
Hello again, It has been awhile since I have done a GIMP Foundation update. There is quite a bit that must be decided on at this point. Also, people need to decide how invovled they would like to be. Summary: My Goals, Benefits of incorporation responsibilites of those invovled things to be decided looking for help What the organization can do MY GOALS First off, let me go over several of my personal goals for The GIMP and then I will try and show now TGF can be used to develop these goals. My goals for The GIMP really boil down to three things. First, I really want to see The GIMP to be a household name for professional image editors. Second, I want to the GIMP as easy as possible for volunteers to contribute to. Third, I want to be able to turn The GIMP into a real, paid, career for a team of people, including myself. As such I have been trying to further these goals by creating TGF, soliciting funding, and trying to come up with ways of using that funding to further these goals. Let me make perfectly clear that my important priority is to make sure that our existing volunteer developers are, in no way, givin any additional responsibilites or risks that he/she did not ask for. I do not want (nor do I think it is possible) to try and control or be in charge of our existing volunteer developers. No one, though my actions or those of The GIMP Foundation, will be required to perform any duties, or have any additional responsibities placed on them without his/her consent. What I want is to create an organization that can handle many of the details that do not interest a casual (or even not-so-casual) volunteer. There are quite a few things that could be done to increase the popularity of The GIMP that could be done easier under the organization of TGF. Marketing, making contacts, hiring employees, solicting donations, etc. are all difficult and valuable activities that could benefit all the developers, including the volunteer ones. I want to put in place means to increase oppurtunites for all of our developers. Increasing our userbase, attracting developers, attracting corporations interested in The GIMP will undoubtably lead to more and better opportunites for existing developers. BENEFITS OF INCORPORATION Presumably, I could handle all of these things myself, without creating a legal entity to do so. However, the existance of The GIMP Foundation has several legal benefits: 1) The GIMP Foundation can enter into contracts and acquire loans and, as long as the Directors act in Good Faith (and follow some fairly simple rules) cannot be held liable for any actions of TGF. This means that if TGF enters into a contract with a corporation (such as accepting a donation to finish a certain feature in The GIMP) and 50% of the way though the feature the corporation decides they want their money back, the individual directors and members hold no personal responsibility to pay back that corporation. 2) TGF can offer tax deductable donations. 3) We become qualified for Federal, state, and private grants. The first provision above is probably the most important. It means that if you follow the rules, there is no risk (other than the time you put into the organization) to running it. It also means that TGF can enter into contracts with people like Mark Shuttleworth and the individual members, directors and officers are not at risk of losing any personal funds. RESPONSIBILITES OF THOSE INVOVLED Non-profits have to have certain organizational structers. There must be a board of directors. The board has the power to enter into major business dealings, decides what to do with assets, and has to the power to hire officers. The officers handle the day to day business of the corporation. However, being invovled with The GIMP Foundation means you will be held to certain responsibilities. If you are a board member you must: Attend board meetings. Vote on specific issues. Avoid conflict of interest. Avoid self-dealing. Be honest. Be careful with the funds of the Foundation. fufill any other specific duties outlined in the bylaws. Board members have the power to: Enter into contracts in the name of TGF. make finantial decisions about the future of The GIMP. hire officers. Officers are empowered to handle the day to day decisions of the board. They are not normally empowered to enter into major business dealings, and the board is responsible for their actions. They must also fufill any responsibilites outlined in the bylaws. In addition, 51% of the board members have to be disinterested. (this means they or anyone related to them cannot be compensated by TGF for other than as a director). I.e. 51% of board members have to be volunteer. Also there are no residency or age requirements on any of these positions. (though the board members should be at least 18 so that they have the ability to enter into contracts). A non-profit may or may not have members. Members (in the legal sense) have specific voting
[Gimp-developer] more gimp foundation stuff
Here is few notes to address a few more concerns I have encountered, I'll pose them retorically. 1. I heard that some people have been asked to be on the board, why weren't the developers consulted? I'm a developer, why wasn't I asked? Who are these board members? In California every corporation that has not applied and achieved tax-exempt status from the IRS has to pay an 800 dollar franchise tax. In order to get tax-exempt status, you must meet certain requirements, write your bylaws, have your first board meeting, and attach the bylaws and the minutes of your first meeting to the tax-exempt form and set it to the IRS (and the state franchise tax board). At some point, I needed to make sure that there would be sufficient interest in being board members to be able to have the first board meeting. Otherwise, seeing how I am the only board member at the moment (every corporation needs one initial board member) I would have to pay the 800 dollar franchise tax fee. I didn't want to do that. I also didn't know if non-US-residents can be on the board, so yosh and I came up with a list of all US contributors and interested people and sent them mail asking about being TGF board members. Yosh, Mat, Nathan, were the ones who expressed interest at the time. This meant I had enough poeple interested that I felt I could contine without undue risk to myself. They are, in fact, not board members, though it seems likely that they will try to become one. I can't elect new board members until the bylaws are written (and, in fact, if the bylaws define a voting membership, I _can't_ elect. That is the members job). Now that I know that there are no residency requirements and and the only age requirement is 18 (so that you can enter contracts) I've asked (in my last mail) more generally, and with greater specificity, who would like to be involved. 2. Will The GIMP Foundation have a steering committee? No, not exactly. The GIMP has always been a contributor driven project, and I see no reason (or even ability) to change that. If TGF has an object called a steering committee it will only be able to be in charge of TGF employees. Noone is going to be telling volunteers what to do (unless of course, they are specific volunteering their time to TGF, but that is another matter entirely). 3. This thing is still vague to me. Aren't you assuming you will have money? What exactly is it supposed to do? Why should I care? Why should I get invovled? Why should I not get invovled. Yes, I am assuming we will have money. Without money, this whole thing is just an exercise is futility. Getting more money will be one of this things TGF will need to focus on. More or less, the purpose of TGF is to provide a public (and scientific) service by ensuring the distrobution, and development of The GIMP. What this boils down to it getting and spending money for the good of The GIMP. You should care because the money will be spend to support your activities (and perhaps even compensate you directly). You should get invovled if you want to have a say in how that money is spent, or want to get invovled with The GIMP in other ways. Undoubtably marketing style stuff will have a place in The GIMP, and I already know that there are more than a few non-technical people interested in contrubting to something like that. The only reason you should not get invovled is if you don't want to spend the time on it. By the nature of a corporation, no one is personally liable, so there is no risk for getting involved (including, but not limited to, protection for lawsuits and bad business deals made in good faith). Please let me know if anyone has and more concerns. I will address them as best I can. -- Dan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Daniel Rogers wrote: Hello again, It has been awhile since I have done a GIMP Foundation update. There is quite a bit that must be decided on at this point. Also, people need to decide how invovled they would like to be. My goals for The GIMP really boil down to three things. First, I really want to see The GIMP to be a household name for professional image editors. Second, I want to the GIMP as easy as possible for volunteers to contribute to. Third, I want to be able to turn The GIMP into a real, paid, career for a team of people, including myself. I would add usability for all and ease-of-getting started for new and casual users to the list of gimp goals. If you are a board member you must: Attend board meetings. Is this required to be in person, or is conference call/irc/email/etc sufficient? Furthermore, is it possible for board members to be reimbursed for expenses? I can see this being a major obstacle for non-us residents otherwise. WHAT THE ORGANIZATION CAN DO Here are a few of the things, that given the oppurtunity and funds I would like to do with TGF. In my mind one of the major reasons to have a Gimp Foundation is to put all of our IP ducks in a row. As I've said before I don't think that having contributors sign over copyright to TGF would be the best plan. Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf. Rockwalrus ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
Hi, Nathan Carl Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In my mind one of the major reasons to have a Gimp Foundation is to put all of our IP ducks in a row. As I've said before I don't think that having contributors sign over copyright to TGF would be the best plan. Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf. Does IP mean what I think it means? Let's hope it doesn't because there simply is no such thing as intellectual property. Knowledge must not belong to anyone. If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit. Also, so far the FSF has done a great job at funding our developer conferences. So we should really have good reasons to form our own foundation since I don't expect the FSF to grant any more fundings as soon as The GIMP Foundation has been created. This is not a vote against the TGF; it's just something to keep in mind... Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The GIMP Foundation
On 8 Mar 2004, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, Nathan Carl Summers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In my mind one of the major reasons to have a Gimp Foundation is to put all of our IP ducks in a row. As I've said before I don't think that having contributors sign over copyright to TGF would be the best plan. Instead, I would like to see the ability to give TGF power-of-attorney to sue copyright violators in their behalf. Does IP mean what I think it means? Let's hope it doesn't because there simply is no such thing as intellectual property. Knowledge must not belong to anyone. I believe that intellectual property is a natural right, but should be limited in scope for the same kind of reasons that you are not allowed to invite someone onto your property and then kill them, even though you own the weapon and the land. More specifically, I think that the number of years copyrights last should be counted on one hand, and that if you have access to software, you should have access to its source. I could go on with more detail about my views about copyrights and patents, but that is really offtopic for this list. I agree with RMS that lumping several somewhat dissimilar aspects of law together under the same title can lead to confusion, but in this case, it causes no confusion, since the gimp foundation should indeed hold all gimp related copyrights, trademarks, and patents. GIMP can't have trade secrets, obviously. And a service mark might be more appropriate than a trademark; i dunno. Having a patent or two for protection might be pragmatic, even though I think that software patents are stupid. If sueing copyright violators is the main goal, I'd rather let the Free Software Foundation do this job. It is probably in a lot better position when it should ever come to a law-suit. Well, the FSF cannot sue unless it has copyright assignment from us, and I don't think we can really do a credible job unless it gets assignment at least from Spencer, Peter, Sven, and Mitch. (All other substantial contributors are also listed here, your eyes just skip over them every time you read the list :) Also, so far the FSF has done a great job at funding our developer conferences. So we should really have good reasons to form our own foundation since I don't expect the FSF to grant any more fundings as soon as The GIMP Foundation has been created. This is not a vote against the TGF; it's just something to keep in mind... Perhaps we should bring the FSF into the discussion. We are, after all, an official GNU project, even though FSF gives us complete autonomy. Rockwalrus ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The Gimp Foundation
Daniel Rogers wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I am not subscribed to gimp-web, so if you are only replying to that address, I won't get the message As was discussed at Gimp Con 2003 (and before, frankly) I am in the process of incorporating The GIMP Foundation as a non-profit organization devoted to supporting the gimp. As this point, nothing (including the name) is set in stone. I have a legal clinic doing some research to help inform me about how to form the corporation and my (and its) legal responsibilities. This service is free, but limited. I will need to seek the advice of some other attorney (of which I have a list of about two potentially helpful lawyers) to anything TGF needs in the future. What I am working on, though, is what to do with TGF. What I want from everyone else is two things: ideas about what to do with TGF and questions anyone may have about TGF. I want make sure that these things have time get discussed with the lawyer and to try to help keep our community more informed of these matters. So please, if anyone has any questions about how TGF will work and what you would like to see it do, send them to me. I will work on providing answers. Here are some of the ideas I am currently mulling over regarding TGF: Selling t-shirts, coffee cups, lapel pins, posters, etc. Selling printed manuals. When I looked into this sometime back, I watched the gnome foundation elections on the irc. This is probably not the best view of a foundation, however, I really wanted nothing to do with it. It seems like if there is money available to aid with TheGIMP, the easier it is for the people to contact the person most involved with this area -- then the decision can be made by the person who is to do the task or what have you. I understand that this is a dangerous practice; however there are other dangers in other practices as well. I am trying to bring the gimp authors more to the foreground (which is at the core of my problem with docbook, the author credit is so far nested into the information and xslt is still such a challenge) and I guess I would rather trust each individuals ability to determine what should go to gimp and what should stay with them. If you develop TheGIMP right now, and you get offered some money, it is difficult to give any of it back. Having a place and an easy interface to deposit money would be nice I think, and good therapy for any who received more than they gave (deep down everyone knows). I would like to buy some teeshirts, however. Any maybe if there is a particularly popular teeshirt design, we can put it into a more official copyleft sort of production. I am not certain if I am making sense (again); but no matter what is going on and all the evidence against this belief, I tend to believe more in individuals and their conscience than in organizations. People can get and install gimp on their own. Selling a distribution is sort of like preying on the ignorant. This has happened to me, and I didn't like it. carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The Gimp Foundation
Also, I fear my first email may have been a bit to rambling to be able to actually get my point across. What I am hoping to discover by encourging this conversation is what ways people would like to help with TGF and in what ways people would like to see TGF help them. I would also like to get any questions about TGF role, my role, and anyone elses potential role answered as completely as possible. Sticky legal questions, if posed soon enough will be something I can pass onto my lawyer. I want to get people as excited as I am about the potential that TGF has to help the GIMP. -- Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] The Gimp Foundation
Carol Spears wrote: When I looked into this sometime back, I watched the gnome foundation elections on the irc. This is probably not the best view of a foundation, however, I really wanted nothing to do with it. We don't need to structure our Foundation (or even have membership) if we don't want to. Further we can have our own rules for determining membership that may or may not have anything to do with democracy. It seems like if there is money available to aid with TheGIMP, the easier it is for the people to contact the person most involved with this area -- then the decision can be made by the person who is to do the task or what have you. I am not following what you mean here. Are you suggesting that the people most invovled in the project decide who or what gets funded? If you develop TheGIMP right now, and you get offered some money, it is difficult to give any of it back. Having a place and an easy interface to deposit money would be nice I think, and good therapy for any who received more than they gave (deep down everyone knows). Everyone knows what? Yea making it easy to provide donations would be cool. I am not certain if I am making sense (again); but no matter what is going on and all the evidence against this belief, I tend to believe more in individuals and their conscience than in organizations. People can get and install gimp on their own. Selling a distribution is sort of like preying on the ignorant. This has happened to me, and I didn't like it. I don't want to pray on the ignorant. Selling cds would be clearly marked as a fundraiser (and probably priced as such). However, is should be possible to inform people of the fact that The Gimp is free and you don't need to buy it. -- Dan ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] The Gimp Foundation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I am not subscribed to gimp-web, so if you are only replying to that address, I won't get the message As was discussed at Gimp Con 2003 (and before, frankly) I am in the process of incorporating The GIMP Foundation as a non-profit organization devoted to supporting the gimp. As this point, nothing (including the name) is set in stone. I have a legal clinic doing some research to help inform me about how to form the corporation and my (and its) legal responsibilities. This service is free, but limited. I will need to seek the advice of some other attorney (of which I have a list of about two potentially helpful lawyers) to anything TGF needs in the future. What I am working on, though, is what to do with TGF. What I want from everyone else is two things: ideas about what to do with TGF and questions anyone may have about TGF. I want make sure that these things have time get discussed with the lawyer and to try to help keep our community more informed of these matters. So please, if anyone has any questions about how TGF will work and what you would like to see it do, send them to me. I will work on providing answers. Here are some of the ideas I am currently mulling over regarding TGF: Selling t-shirts, coffee cups, lapel pins, posters, etc. Selling printed manuals. Selling GPL complient binary and source disributions on cd. Selling and paying people to go train and give presentations on the GIMP. Public and private grants. (someone (like me) will need to apply for these) Tax deductable donations. buying hardware (computers, tablets, scanners, colorimeters). full color magazine ads free training sessions office space accounting legal expenses staff paying programmers, web designers, tech writers constructing a build farm (this would help both developers and in making a cd distribution). Also, if anyone would like to me more directly involved with TGF, just email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and let me know how. I am sure we can find a role you'd be happy with. - -- Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS. TGF will need a webpage. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/iS9xad4P1+ZAZk0RAj5zAKCTAT6PArDh8KXhP5x/niC1hGg4qgCeOt+B Foua9HwhWcGI4kgnxgor9no= =i6OI -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
