Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
First off, fantastic job on the new tool. I think it is great and have no great complaints about its implementation. FWIW, I would mildly desire integer-only aspect ratios and I would greatly desire having the "make square" and "expand from center" options be available as key modifiers. One thing I noticed is that for the "subtract" and "intersect" modes (whether attained through the Mode buttons or through key modifiers), The marching ants of the currently drawn area become a solid line whereas for the "replace" and "add" modes they remain marching ants (this is true for both the Rectangular and Elliptical tools). Perhaps there is a very useful reason for this behavior, I just found it anomalous. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
Tim Jedlicka wrote: you click inside an existing selection, then a new, modifiable rectangular selection is created, whose bounds are just large enough to completely enclose the previous selection. Found it! Thanks, Tim. For some reason I missed that the other day or else I didn't realize it would crop to the current selection. Now I see that information appears in the pop-up tooltop for the menu entry. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include| -Pinkutus & the Borg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
On 8/11/06, Kevin Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One feature I miss about the current crop tool is something I'm used to fromthe 2.2 GIMP. I have a habit of using the selection tool to mark a regionthen, when I pick the crop tool, use the "From Selection" option to set the crop limits based on the currently active selection.I suppose I could get used to not having this option in the tool box (or amenu item to do the same thing) but it would be a nice feature to have back. Doesn't this essentially do this for you? I may not fully understand what you are attempting, but you can click inside the current selection, adjust selection/crop then do a Image->Crop to crop the image "from the selection". you click insidean existing selection, then a new, modifiable rectangular selection is created, whose bounds are just large enough to completely enclose theprevious selection.-- Tim Jedlicka, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.galifree.com ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
Sven Neumann wrote: I think it would be sufficient if people could enter a width and a height in order to define the aspect ratio. That's how the old tool used to work. Perhaps add portrait and landscape buttons to it, like we have in the New Image dialog so that people can easily flip the aspect ratio. That sounds like the simplest approach. I don't find the value with all the decimal places after it useful. After entering width/height to set the ratio you would just click the chain icon beside width/height so a change to one of the values adjusts the other accordingly and maintains the desired aspect ratio. One feature I miss about the current crop tool is something I'm used to from the 2.2 GIMP. I have a habit of using the selection tool to mark a region then, when I pick the crop tool, use the "From Selection" option to set the crop limits based on the currently active selection. I suppose I could get used to not having this option in the tool box (or a menu item to do the same thing) but it would be a nice feature to have back. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.interlog.com/~kcozens/ |"What are we going to do today, Borg?" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172|"Same thing we always do, Pinkutus: | Try to assimilate the world!" #include| -Pinkutus & the Borg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
Hi, On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 13:15 -0700, William Skaggs wrote: > Concerning the aspect ratio, it should be possible to come up > with a method that allows easy entry of integer ratios. It > isn't clear that we will be able to come up with a menu of > "standard" ratios for 2.4. If we could just use a fixed list, > it would be simple, but it seems that it would be necessary to > allow people to edit the list of possibilities, and that would > require enough machinery that it might not be feasible to add > it this late in the 2.4 cycle. I think it would be sufficient if people could enter a width and a height in order to define the aspect ratio. That's how the old tool used to work. Perhaps add portrait and landscape buttons to it, like we have in the New Image dialog so that people can easily flip the aspect ratio. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
Thanks for the comments. I have changed the code so that when a user is modifying an existing rectangle, in Replace mode, the marching ants for the previous selection are no longer shown -- this seemed to confuse almost everybody. Concerning the options gui, it seems clear that improvements are needed, particularly concerning the aspect ratio. However there is a need for more concrete suggestions about what it should look like. The way it was done for the old rect select tool is not viable, in my opinion, but it does not allow for rectangles that can be modified after they have been created. Concerning the aspect ratio, it should be possible to come up with a method that allows easy entry of integer ratios. It isn't clear that we will be able to come up with a menu of "standard" ratios for 2.4. If we could just use a fixed list, it would be simple, but it seems that it would be necessary to allow people to edit the list of possibilities, and that would require enough machinery that it might not be feasible to add it this late in the 2.4 cycle. For your information, the following bug reports are active concerning the new rectangle-based tools (each of these is marked as a blocker for the 2.4 target): Bug 316156 â selection tool: modifiers pressed before click should only do one thing. Bug 345414 â Should select/crop tool options put controls in an expander? Bug 346683 â New "Rect select" tool doesn't restore settings Bug 346684 â New "Rect select" tool setting of the aspect ratio is cumbersome -- Bill __ __ __ __ Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
Hi, On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 15:50 -0700, William Skaggs wrote: > Rectangle Controls: An expander containing a set of spinbuttons and > checkboxes used for specifying the shape of the rectangle > numerically. There are checkboxes for "fixed width", "fixed > height", and "fixed aspect". If any of these are activated, then > the number entered in the corresonding spinbutton will be used to > set the relevant dimension of the rectangle, and will not be > affected by any mouse actions. It is possible for more than one to > be activated. If, for example, both "fixed width" and "fixed > height" are active, then the shape of the rectangle will be fixed, > and dragging any edge or corner will simply move the rectangle as a > whole. > > At the bottom of the Controls are a set of four spinsbuttons that > can be used to change the coordinates of the rectangle corners. > Changing any of these has the same effect as dragging one of the > rectangle edges using the mouse, including the application of any > constraints that are active. This part needs to be entirely redesigned. I didn't realize until now that you actually meant this to be the final state of the tool options. I always assumed that the controls are just there as a way to play with the internal properties. The properties are probably fine but I don't think we can present this to our users. It's way too complex and people have already expressed their concerns about it, especially when it comes to specifying the aspect ratio. I suggest that we look at the old rect select and crop tools for this. Their user interface was IMO a lot cleaner and more intuitive. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
First thanks for the new tool - it is growing on me. I love the highlight and the 3rds guides. I resisted using it until 2.3.10 but have used it for about 100 images now. The rect. select is the one tool I use on every image. Not sure if you want a bug report (another bug report?) on the aspect ratio - but this still needs some clarified requirements or usage studies - what is the recommended way of cropping to "standard" aspect ratios? How do I easily go from 2:3 to 3:2? Many of these issues have already been discussed/debated - we just need to pull them together. The interaction of the fixed width, height, and aspect ratio don't work as I expect. Should I open bug reports or can you clarify if/how they should interact. i.e. if I enter a height and width, should the aspect ratio automatically recalculate - does it matter if any of the three are checked or not? Rectangle controls are always in pixels (except for XY coords.) even if the default unit of measure is inches - is this intended. Not a problem for me, but might be an issue for some. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
On Thursday 10 August 2006 00:50, William Skaggs wrote: > Rectangle Controls: An expander containing a set of spinbuttons and > checkboxes used for specifying the shape of the rectangle > numerically. There are checkboxes for "fixed width", "fixed > height", and "fixed aspect". If any of these are activated, then > the number entered in the corresonding spinbutton will be used to > set the relevant dimension of the rectangle, and will not be > affected by any mouse actions. Please don't describe aspect ratio as a single float as this makes it impossible to quickly and intuitively enter aspect ratios such as 2:3, 3:2, 16:9, 9:16 without having a pocket calculator nearby. When using big selections then the current float entry with four digits precision is imprecise when describing certain aspect ratios (neither 0. or 0.6667 is correctly describing 2:3 aspect ratio). Either go back to the old tool there, which simply allowed any multiple of the height/width values set when aspect was fixed or provide two spinbuttons for the aspect to be entered properly without having the user calculate the "aspect" each an every time. regards Karl Günter Wünsch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool specification
We are working toward cleaning up for a 2.4 release, and one of the things that needs to be cleaned up is the new tools, including the ones based on GimpRectangleTool, that is, the new rectangle select, ellipse select, and crop tools. In order to fix problems, we need bug reports that describe them. However, Sven feels that there is no point in filing bug reports right now, because there is no specification of how the tools are *supposed* to behave. This document is aimed at providing such a specification. If a tool doesn't work as described here in some way, or if you think that the operations described here are not the way the tool *ought* to work, then you should file a bug report. (Of course, it is also possible that this document will not be entirely perfect itself. Suggestions for improvements or clarifications, or questions, are welcome.) I will focus here on the rectangle select tool. Almost all of its features also apply to the ellipse select and crop tools -- with a couple of exceptions. The (New) Rectangle Select Tool The Rectangle Select tool is used for making rectangular selections, possibly feathered. It is intended to be both simple to use and powerful enough to allow fancy things when they are needed. The basic operation is dragging out a selection, by clicking and dragging. This is done in the same way as with the old rect-select tool. Once you have dragged out a rectangle, the selection exists, and you can switch to a different tool, or act on the selection in any way you please. An important different from the old tool is that the rectangle you get is modifiable, as indicated by handles at the corners. You should be able to click on any corner or edge and drag it -- the cursor should change to indicate when dragging is possible. Clicking *inside* the rectangle, and then dragging, will move all of the rectangle edges simultaneously without changing the shape. Clicking *outside* the rectangle and dragging will start a new rectangle. The results are different if you click and release without dragging. If there is an existing rectangle (with handles visible), then clicking without dragging converts it into a fixed, unmodifiable selection, with no handles. (This is essentially useless, and only happens for consistency.) If there is no existing rectangle, and you click inside an existing selection, then a new, modifiable rectangular selection is created, whose bounds are just large enough to completely enclose the previous selection. If instead you click *outside* the existing selection, then the selection is removed. After you have pressed the mouse button, while you are holding it down and dragging, the marching ants revert temporarily to follow the previous selection. This is useful if you are working in Add, Subtract, or Intersect mode, but may be confusing in Replace mode. The rectangle can also be modified using a set of controls located inside the tool options. (By default, these are hidden inside an expander.) You can use spinbuttons to enter values for the width, height, aspect ratio, or coordinates of the corners. Modifier keys As with other tools, the Rectangle Select tool can be switched between Replace, Add, Subtract, and Intersect modes, either by using buttons in the tool options, or by using the Shift and Control modifiers in the standard combinations. Modifier keys are only effective in changing mode when pressed *before* the mouse click that starts a new rectangle. They can be released after the mouse click without changing the mode of the operation. Modifier keys change the click-and-drag behavior slightly. When modifiers are used to change the mode to something other than Replace, then clicking always starts a new rectangle -- it never modifies the existing rectangle. Note that this applies only when the Mode is changed using modifier keys, not when it is changed using the buttons in the tool options. When you modify an existing rectangle by dragging an edge or corner, you don't need to press any modifier keys. The operation performed for a given rectangle (i.e., replace, add, subtract, or intersect) is never changed simply by moving the edges of the rectangle. Keyboard Control Only a few keys affect this tool. The Esc key cancels the operation, and causes the selection to revert to its state before the tool was activated. The Return key makes the selection unmodifiable, just like clicking inside without moving. The arrow keys move the rectangle without changing its shape -- holding down Shift increases the movement increment. Tool Options Mode: as described above Antialiasing: not available for this tool, shown for consistency Feather edges: does not need describing here Auto shrink selection: If this option is activated, then, after you drag out a rectangle and release the mouse button, the rectangle will automatically be shrunk as much as possible such that the border outside the rectangle is all the same
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool
Jimmac, Thanks for your detailed, thoughtful, and very helpful critique. >I see the hard work you've put into this. I'm happy to see you learn >your way around GIMP codebase. I like the cooperation effort involved. >But expect some harsh reactions from existing userbase. Well, my experience has always been that changing *anything* in the UI of an application, no matter how broken, leads to harsh reactions from users who have learned to exploit the breakage -- so it won't come as a surprise. This is not intended to be dismissive of complaints -- the whole effort was largely driven by complaints -- but just to point out that it is never possible to make everybody copletely happy. >The bezier selection is now very similar in behavior with the new >selection tools. You tweak a shape first and then apply it to form a >regular marching ants selection. In bezier selections tool you use the >modifiers to add to or substract from existing selection when _applying_ >the selection (pressing Alt+Enter or Alt+Click Inside to subtract, Shift >+Enter or Shift+Click inside to add...). You don't press the modifiers >before you start defining the shape. Using this for these selection >tools as well would from my point of view avoid the shortcut clash >problem. First: the new tools actually used to work the way you describe, and the behavior was changed in response to complaints from users (including you, iirc!) who wanted to be able to do things like sweep out a rectangle and then hit Ctrl-C to copy the contents without remembering to click inside the rectangle first; etc. It would be easy to change it back, but the current behavior seems to be more appealing to most people. Second: for me personally, I am generally opposed to overloading modifiers. It allows speedups for experienced users, but really messes with the minds of new users. I think there is a better solution to this problem: to allow GIMP to make use of a new modifier key (call it TOOL), and dedicate TOOL-modified keystrokes exclusively to controlling tool behavior. Then you could, for example, toggle the aspect constraint by hitting 'TOOL-s' or something. But this is a topic best discussed in depth elsewhere. >On the other hand, rectangular and elliptical selections in cvs HEAD are >active even before they are applied. Maybe that's a good thing. Although >I found it a little distracting when I had an existing selection and >tweaking the new one "blinked through" the old one. Kinda similarly >confusing as the dual-use modifiers ;) But perhaps it's just a bug. It is intentional. I think after you get used to it, it is actually helpful in many cases, but if too many people find it confusing, it can be changed. > >If you go for shift+drag for adding new selection behavior as it is now >in cvs HEAD, allow me to start the drag over an existing selection "in >progress". Currently that starts editing it as if I didn't hold shift. Good point. I will change this. >There's also something I think would make the tool more usable. The >cursor changing bounds are image-resolution-bound, not >view-resolution-bound. I work with 22x22px canvases. Even when I'm >zoomed in, no selection I make shows the "apply selection" cursor in the >center as the selection border takes all the space every time. The >feedback I'm given is that I cannot apply the selection in progress by >clicking inside. Ah, that's a bug. I'll fix it. >It's too early to tell if I can get used to this new behavior. Even >though the immidiate reaction was "dang give me my tools back!" I see >the benefit for a lot of casual GIMP users. It probably was a >serious-enough problem to require routine users and Photoshop converts >to forget and learn something new. I guess the question, in the long run, is how often you find yourself happy to be able to modify an existing selection, versus how often you find yourself thinking that what you are doing would have been easier the old way. Every change is a tradeoff: I hope this one is a good tradeoff overall, but only time will tell. >P.S.: I also noticed the selections are broken when modified with a >keyboard. The marching ants nor the final selection reflect to the >keyboard-set position. I will investigate, and fix any problems I can find. Thanks again for your feedback, -- Bill __ __ __ __ Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool
Hi. I see the hard work you've put into this. I'm happy to see you learn your way around GIMP codebase. I like the cooperation effort involved. But expect some harsh reactions from existing userbase. Personally you're making me change a process that I've learned and practiced in the past 6 years. During that time I've probably used the selection tools many more times more often than I've been outside I'm affraid[1]. But I'll bite the lip and will try my best to throw this all away. Initially I thought getting rid of the aspect lock modifier may be a bit harsh. But maybe I just need to test this for a month and we'll see. There may be another solution to the "same modifier for adding and aspect ratio contrain" problem than you chose. The bezier selection is now very similar in behavior with the new selection tools. You tweak a shape first and then apply it to form a regular marching ants selection. In bezier selections tool you use the modifiers to add to or substract from existing selection when _applying_ the selection (pressing Alt+Enter or Alt+Click Inside to subtract, Shift +Enter or Shift+Click inside to add...). You don't press the modifiers before you start defining the shape. Using this for these selection tools as well would from my point of view avoid the shortcut clash problem. On the other hand, rectangular and elliptical selections in cvs HEAD are active even before they are applied. Maybe that's a good thing. Although I found it a little distracting when I had an existing selection and tweaking the new one "blinked through" the old one. Kinda similarly confusing as the dual-use modifiers ;) But perhaps it's just a bug. If you go for shift+drag for adding new selection behavior as it is now in cvs HEAD, allow me to start the drag over an existing selection "in progress". Currently that starts editing it as if I didn't hold shift. There's also something I think would make the tool more usable. The cursor changing bounds are image-resolution-bound, not view-resolution-bound. I work with 22x22px canvases. Even when I'm zoomed in, no selection I make shows the "apply selection" cursor in the center as the selection border takes all the space every time. The feedback I'm given is that I cannot apply the selection in progress by clicking inside. It's too early to tell if I can get used to this new behavior. Even though the immidiate reaction was "dang give me my tools back!" I see the benefit for a lot of casual GIMP users. It probably was a serious-enough problem to require routine users and Photoshop converts to forget and learn something new. P.S.: I also noticed the selections are broken when modified with a keyboard. The marching ants nor the final selection reflect to the keyboard-set position. [1] Sad, sad life I'm living. -- Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Novell, Inc. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool
Hi. I see the hard work you've put into this. I'm happy to see you learn your way around GIMP codebase. I like the cooperation effort involved. But expect some harsh reactions from existing userbase. Personally you're making me change a process that I've learned and practiced in the past 6 years. During that time I've probably used the selection tools many more times more often than I've been outside I'm affraid[1]. But I'll bite the lip and will try my best to throw this all away. Initially I thought getting rid of the aspect lock modifier may be a bit harsh. But maybe I just need to test this for a month and we'll see. There may be another solution to the "same modifier for adding and aspect ratio contrain" problem than you chose. The bezier selection is now very similar in behavior with the new selection tools. You tweak a shape first and then apply it to form a regular marching ants selection. In bezier selections tool you use the modifiers to add to or substract from existing selection when _applying_ the selection (pressing Alt+Enter or Alt+Click Inside to subtract, Shift +Enter or Shift+Click inside to add...). You don't press the modifiers before you start defining the shape. Using this for these selection tools as well would from my point of view avoid the shortcut clash problem. On the other hand, rectangular and elliptical selections in cvs HEAD are active even before they are applied. Maybe that's a good thing. Although I found it a little distracting when I had an existing selection and tweaking the new one "blinked through" the old one. Kinda similarly confusing as the dual-use modifiers ;) But perhaps it's just a bug. If you go for shift+drag for adding new selection behavior as it is now in cvs HEAD, allow me to start the drag over an existing selection "in progress". Currently that starts editing it as if I didn't hold shift. There's also something I think would make the tool more usable. The cursor changing bounds are image-resolution-bound, not view-resolution-bound. I work with 22x22px canvases. Even when I'm zoomed in, no selection I make shows the "apply selection" cursor in the center as the selection border takes all the space every time. The feedback I'm given is that I cannot apply the selection in progress by clicking inside. It's too early to tell if I can get used to this new behavior. Even though the immidiate reaction was "dang give me my tools back!" I see the benefit for a lot of casual GIMP users. It probably was a serious-enough problem to require routine users and Photoshop converts to forget and learn something new. P.S.: I also noticed the selections are broken when modified with a keyboard. The marching ants nor the final selection reflect to the keyboard-set position. [1] Sad, sad life I'm living. -- Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Novell, Inc. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] rectangle select tool
Okay, the old rectangle select tool has finally been removed from cvs and the new, adjustable, one has taken its place. It is hopefully in something very close to its final form now. The "rectangle tool" project has been a rather long and quite cooperative effort. I started it, using the old crop tool as the take-off point; Edhel took over and rewrote the code completely, turning it into an "interface" and converting the crop and ellipse tools to use it; Neo provided guidance and feedback all along; Mitch provided advice and lots of bug-fixes; and I came back at the end to wrap up a few loose ends. I won't say anything about how to use the new rectangle select tool here, because it is supposed to be intuitive and discoverable -- to the extent that it behaves contrary to your expectations, that is probably a bug. There are however just a couple of things worth noting: 1) The Shift and Control keys are no longer usable to constrain the rectangle to be square, and to expand from a center-point. Instead there are tool options that do these things. The overloading of Shift and Control was always difficult to deal with in the old tool, and in the new tool with movable edges, it turned out to be completely impossible. 2) You will probably get a "GIMP-critical" error the first time you run cvs-gimp after this change, because it tries to restore the toolbox to its previous state and finds that one of the tools it is looking for does not exist. This is not a crasher (at least for me), and it should only happen once, so just ignore it. If you find something that is broken or doesn't seem to work right from this point, please file a Bugzilla report. -- Bill __ __ __ __ Sent via the CNPRC Email system at primate.ucdavis.edu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
