Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-21 Thread Branko Vukelic
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Sven Neumann  wrote:
> For now we can probably fix it easily for XCF files and with some more
> effort some of the most often used file plug-ins.

Well, as someone else has already pointed out, fixing this for
XCF-only is a good option.


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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-21 Thread Branko Vukelic
On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Sven Neumann  wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 22:17 +0200, Branko Vukelic wrote:
>
>> As for myself, I've got 2G RAM, and 1G swap space (big mistake, I
>> know) on a 64-bit linux. I sometimes run out оf memory/swap on a image
>> that is like a little smaller than 3000x3000 when I have more than 20
>> layers and couple of hours of work on it. Tile cache is at 1024M.
>
> Why would you limit your tile-cache size to 1GB if you have 2GB of RAM?

Because I haven't read the howto? :D

> You might want to read http://www.gimp.org/unix/howtos/tile_cache.html

Thanks for the link.

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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-21 Thread Sven Neumann
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 22:12 +0200, Branko Vukelic wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Sven Neumann  wrote:
> > It is actually a very difficult fix. There are hundreds of save plug-ins
> > and all would have to be fixed. Also GIMP plug-ins may save using a
> > helper plug-in that transparently enables saving to remote locations. It
> > is definitely not trivial to fix this.
> 
> If this kind of thing cannot be implemented for all formats, then I
> guess it is a design flaw. How come things like saving a backup copy
> of the target cannot be implemented in a single place for all file
> formats? That simply stinks of bad design, sorry. Now, I'll just STFU
> since I'm not the one to contribute the patch, and hopefully this has
> been already fixed in the devel branch (I remember reading something
> about this).

Yes, it is a very terrible design and it dates back to the last
millenium. But fixing such design flaws in a backward-compatible manner
is rather difficult. Doing this correctly is on the list of things to
fix if we should ever revamp the file plug-in API.

For now we can probably fix it easily for XCF files and with some more
effort some of the most often used file plug-ins.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-21 Thread Sven Neumann
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 22:17 +0200, Branko Vukelic wrote:

> As for myself, I've got 2G RAM, and 1G swap space (big mistake, I
> know) on a 64-bit linux. I sometimes run out оf memory/swap on a image
> that is like a little smaller than 3000x3000 when I have more than 20
> layers and couple of hours of work on it. Tile cache is at 1024M.

Why would you limit your tile-cache size to 1GB if you have 2GB of RAM?
You might want to read http://www.gimp.org/unix/howtos/tile_cache.html


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-20 Thread Branko Vukelic
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Sven Neumann  wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 03:26 +0200, Branko Vukelic wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Jade  wrote:
>> > I'm running the latest Ubuntu and it's probably more of a hardware issue 
>> > than
>> > a software. When I say "Gimp crashed," I mean that it froze up and then
>> > exited. I don't know what happened besides that. I have a super old 
>> > computer
>> > with three quarters of a gig of ram and it probably was having a hard time
>> > processing such a big image and shut it down. I don't really know. I was
>> > working with a 3000 x 3000 image with several layers; it was probably too 
>> > much
>> > for the PC to handle, not Gimp. The file's gone, either way. :(
>>
>> Ooh, that _is_ a big image. What you can do is repartition the hard
>> drive to give Linux more swap space. It probably ate up all the swap
>> space and killed itself. Even with the large swap space (say 4 or even
>> 8 G) it will be super-slow (RAM is always faster, obviously), but at
>> least it won't die easily.
>
> 3000x3000 is not that large. How much RAM do you have and how is the
> tile-cache size configured in GIMP?

I guess it might be on an older machine OP mentioned.

As for myself, I've got 2G RAM, and 1G swap space (big mistake, I
know) on a 64-bit linux. I sometimes run out оf memory/swap on a image
that is like a little smaller than 3000x3000 when I have more than 20
layers and couple of hours of work on it. Tile cache is at 1024M.

Regards,

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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-20 Thread Branko Vukelic
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Sven Neumann  wrote:
> It is actually a very difficult fix. There are hundreds of save plug-ins
> and all would have to be fixed. Also GIMP plug-ins may save using a
> helper plug-in that transparently enables saving to remote locations. It
> is definitely not trivial to fix this.

If this kind of thing cannot be implemented for all formats, then I
guess it is a design flaw. How come things like saving a backup copy
of the target cannot be implemented in a single place for all file
formats? That simply stinks of bad design, sorry. Now, I'll just STFU
since I'm not the one to contribute the patch, and hopefully this has
been already fixed in the devel branch (I remember reading something
about this).

Regards,

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-20 Thread Sven Neumann
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 03:26 +0200, Branko Vukelic wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Jade  wrote:
> > I'm running the latest Ubuntu and it's probably more of a hardware issue 
> > than
> > a software. When I say "Gimp crashed," I mean that it froze up and then
> > exited. I don't know what happened besides that. I have a super old computer
> > with three quarters of a gig of ram and it probably was having a hard time
> > processing such a big image and shut it down. I don't really know. I was
> > working with a 3000 x 3000 image with several layers; it was probably too 
> > much
> > for the PC to handle, not Gimp. The file's gone, either way. :(
> 
> Ooh, that _is_ a big image. What you can do is repartition the hard
> drive to give Linux more swap space. It probably ate up all the swap
> space and killed itself. Even with the large swap space (say 4 or even
> 8 G) it will be super-slow (RAM is always faster, obviously), but at
> least it won't die easily.

3000x3000 is not that large. How much RAM do you have and how is the
tile-cache size configured in GIMP?


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-20 Thread Martin Nordholts
On 06/20/2010 06:45 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 03:29 +0200, Branko Vukelic wrote:
>> Better way would be to do what most text editors do. Create a backup
>> of the old file (remember those files that end with a tilde '~'?)
>> before overwriting it with the new save. It should be a trivial fix.
>
> It is actually a very difficult fix. There are hundreds of save plug-ins
> and all would have to be fixed. Also GIMP plug-ins may save using a
> helper plug-in that transparently enables saving to remote locations. It
> is definitely not trivial to fix this.

Doing it for XCF would be enough, especially with the new Save and 
Export separation we do.

  / Martin
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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-20 Thread Sven Neumann
On Sun, 2010-06-20 at 03:29 +0200, Branko Vukelic wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Sven Neumann  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >> Also I was really surprised that an auto backup isn't in GIMP already. I 
> >> used
> >> to use a really old, backwoods photo editor and it automatically made a 
> >> backup
> >> file and autosaved it every ten minutes.
> >
> > What you really need for your case is not an auto-backup feature, but
> > atomic save operations. Instead of writing over the existing file when
> > you save, GIMP should write to a temporary file in the target directory.
> > And only if it succeeds in writing this file completely should it move
> > the temporary file over the existing file. That way you wouldn't have
> > lost your file completely.
> >
> > Please feel free to open a bug report for this.
> 
> Better way would be to do what most text editors do. Create a backup
> of the old file (remember those files that end with a tilde '~'?)
> before overwriting it with the new save. It should be a trivial fix.

It is actually a very difficult fix. There are hundreds of save plug-ins
and all would have to be fixed. Also GIMP plug-ins may save using a
helper plug-in that transparently enables saving to remote locations. It
is definitely not trivial to fix this.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-19 Thread Branko Vukelic
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Sven Neumann  wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Also I was really surprised that an auto backup isn't in GIMP already. I used
>> to use a really old, backwoods photo editor and it automatically made a 
>> backup
>> file and autosaved it every ten minutes.
>
> What you really need for your case is not an auto-backup feature, but
> atomic save operations. Instead of writing over the existing file when
> you save, GIMP should write to a temporary file in the target directory.
> And only if it succeeds in writing this file completely should it move
> the temporary file over the existing file. That way you wouldn't have
> lost your file completely.
>
> Please feel free to open a bug report for this.

Better way would be to do what most text editors do. Create a backup
of the old file (remember those files that end with a tilde '~'?)
before overwriting it with the new save. It should be a trivial fix.


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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-19 Thread Branko Vukelic
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Jade  wrote:
> I'm running the latest Ubuntu and it's probably more of a hardware issue than
> a software. When I say "Gimp crashed," I mean that it froze up and then
> exited. I don't know what happened besides that. I have a super old computer
> with three quarters of a gig of ram and it probably was having a hard time
> processing such a big image and shut it down. I don't really know. I was
> working with a 3000 x 3000 image with several layers; it was probably too much
> for the PC to handle, not Gimp. The file's gone, either way. :(

Ooh, that _is_ a big image. What you can do is repartition the hard
drive to give Linux more swap space. It probably ate up all the swap
space and killed itself. Even with the large swap space (say 4 or even
8 G) it will be super-slow (RAM is always faster, obviously), but at
least it won't die easily.

You can also add the system monitor applets to your panel, and monitor
the swap usage (right-click the newly added applet, and you'll find
the appropriate checkbox in the preferences). If swap becomes full,
it's time to save the image and restart Gimp. The history of your
edits contributes to memory usage, so restarting Gimp will free some.

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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-19 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

> Also I was really surprised that an auto backup isn't in GIMP already. I used
> to use a really old, backwoods photo editor and it automatically made a backup
> file and autosaved it every ten minutes. 

What you really need for your case is not an auto-backup feature, but
atomic save operations. Instead of writing over the existing file when
you save, GIMP should write to a temporary file in the target directory.
And only if it succeeds in writing this file completely should it move
the temporary file over the existing file. That way you wouldn't have
lost your file completely.

Please feel free to open a bug report for this.


Sven


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[Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-19 Thread Jade
>I've one more observation to add to this.
>
>BIG FAT DISCLAMER: Please, _PLEASE_ don't turn this into just another flame
war.
>
>Anyway, I don't know if it's just me or not, but Gimp's extremely
>stable on Linux. I've seen it crash maybe two or three times in past
>year, and it certainly never crashed when saving images... ever. So,
>it's another option for those that are having stability issues with
>Gimp.
>
>I first noticed this difference when I was told by a windows user
>about performance issues with Gimp on Windows, and I installed it at
>work to see what it was about. And it is quite different, especially
>comparing the antiquated Windows XP to latest Linux distros in 64-bit
>incarnations.
>
>I myself run Arch Linux, 64-bit version, with Gimp 2.6.8 (in fact the
>modified version called Painters Studio), and stability- or
>performance-wize, I've got nothing to complain about, and have
>certainly never lost any work.
>
>Regards,
>
>

I'm running the latest Ubuntu and it's probably more of a hardware issue than
a software. When I say "Gimp crashed," I mean that it froze up and then
exited. I don't know what happened besides that. I have a super old computer
with three quarters of a gig of ram and it probably was having a hard time
processing such a big image and shut it down. I don't really know. I was
working with a 3000 x 3000 image with several layers; it was probably too much
for the PC to handle, not Gimp. The file's gone, either way. :(

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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-19 Thread Branko Vukelic
I've one more observation to add to this.

BIG FAT DISCLAMER: Please, _PLEASE_ don't turn this into just another flame war.

Anyway, I don't know if it's just me or not, but Gimp's extremely
stable on Linux. I've seen it crash maybe two or three times in past
year, and it certainly never crashed when saving images... ever. So,
it's another option for those that are having stability issues with
Gimp.

I first noticed this difference when I was told by a windows user
about performance issues with Gimp on Windows, and I installed it at
work to see what it was about. And it is quite different, especially
comparing the antiquated Windows XP to latest Linux distros in 64-bit
incarnations.

I myself run Arch Linux, 64-bit version, with Gimp 2.6.8 (in fact the
modified version called Painters Studio), and stability- or
performance-wize, I've got nothing to complain about, and have
certainly never lost any work.

Regards,

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread Noel Stoutenburg
Friends

The reason behind part of what I wrote:

> At the same time, I save the log file as
> 00n.txt. I close the file (and often close GIMP),


Partly this is habit from my early years of personal computing, when 
software I chose to use sometimes had the habit of getting more error 
prone the longer it was used. I found with various packages, most no 
longer around, that if I periodically closed down the software, and 
allowed it to reset itself, that I had fewer abnormal ends. This is not 
so true with GIMP, and other modern packages, but I still find that I'm 
much more likely to have a serious problem with GIMP when I've worked on 
35 or 40 images during a work session, than when I've worked with 4 or 5.

ns
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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread Noel Stoutenburg
Jade:

Just for what it might be worth, here's my ordinary work method.

When I decide to start a major project, I give it a name, and use that 
name for a directory / folder. Then I create a text file, "Log.txt" 
using my favorite text editor. I next create a subdirectory "Start" into 
which I copy any material from external sources; if I would have to 
spend much time searching for some item I used, it would get stored in 
this folder. Information I might want to keep track of about files in 
the "start" folder, for example, the name of the source, and the path at 
the time I found the image, would be listed in the log.txt file.

When I start work, I keep progress notes in the log file, for example

 >  Started with my image; adjusted color balance to ...
 >
 >  Added image2.png as a layer to the image, and converted it to use as 
 >  a mask.

At major break points, for example, if I decide to retrieve something 
from the kitchen, or if someone comes to the door, if it's been a while 
since I saved my work, or most importantly, if I reach a point where I'm 
not sure what to do next, I save the working image as 00n.xcf, where n 
is the next sequential number. At the same time, I save the log file as 
00n.txt. I close the file (and often close GIMP), reopen the files 
(00n.xcf and 00n.txt), and immediately save the files wioth an 
incremented name so that subsequent work does not overwrite the previous 
save.

This sounds like a lot of work,  but I think it has actually saved me a 
lot of time, in the number of times I decided a ways down one path, that 
I should have done it the other way. It's a whole lot easier in this 
case to save version 010, and reload version 006, and explore the 
results of taking the other path. And the reason for saving version 010, 
is that sometimes I only think I would have liked the other path.

Finally, I regularly save the main folder in multiple places on 
different mediums. For example, on two different physical hard drives, 
or on a physical hard drive and thumb drive. I can't think of a 
significant file of which I don't have at least two copies.

ns
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[Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread Jade
>On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:10:00 +0200 (CEST)
>"Jade"  wrote:
>
>> I read on several googled pages that it's possible to recover layers
>> from EXIF data, etc, and it would help me out a lot to recover even the
>> line art. 
>
>EXIF data in 'Extra' information, generally things such as dates,
>exposure time, if the flash was activated or not, etc. The EXIF data does
>not contain any graphical info at all, so it won't be of any help for
>recovering the image.
>
>John
>

Dang. I don't know what he was thinking, then.

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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread John Coppens
On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:10:00 +0200 (CEST)
"Jade"  wrote:

> I read on several googled pages that it's possible to recover layers
> from EXIF data, etc, and it would help me out a lot to recover even the
> line art. 

EXIF data in 'Extra' information, generally things such as dates,
exposure time, if the flash was activated or not, etc. The EXIF data does
not contain any graphical info at all, so it won't be of any help for
recovering the image.

John
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[Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread Jade
>On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Jade  wrote:
>> Also, if I had previous saves, I'd be fine... I saved the same file over
>> and over and now it's empty. It's about 70 Kb and I think that's too
small.
>
>I think something like this has happened to all of as at some point.
>It's a bitter pill to swallow, but there's a take-away lesson: every
>so often do File->Save As and save a copy.  I tend to name my files
>like 'project_name-01', and after an hour or two (or any client
>revisions) save as 'project_name-02', then '-03', '-04', etc.
>
>There's a GIMP plug-in that adds an iterative save option (I've never
>used it though):
>http://registry.gimp.org/node/18873
>
>For what it's worth I learned my lesson from Photoshop, not GIMP.  It
>trashed a file I had been working on for over 6 hours and I was only
>able to retrieve bits and pieces - nothing close to the full document.
> I had to start over.  Over the past 10 years I've seen trashed files
>at least once from most of the Adobe suite, so I don't think you give
>up on GIMP just yet.  A crash during the save process can be a very
>dangerous thing, no matter which program you're using.
>
>HTH,
>Chris
>

So it's not worth it? If it can't be recovered (even a layer) without jumping
through flaming hoops of fire, that's fine. I just don't want to start over
until all options have been explored.

Also I was really surprised that an auto backup isn't in GIMP already. I used
to use a really old, backwoods photo editor and it automatically made a backup
file and autosaved it every ten minutes. 

Thanks for the link... and yes, I've started saving a backup. ><

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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread Chris Mohler
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Jade  wrote:
> Also, if I had previous saves, I'd be fine... I saved the same file over
> and over and now it's empty. It's about 70 Kb and I think that's too small.

I think something like this has happened to all of as at some point.
It's a bitter pill to swallow, but there's a take-away lesson: every
so often do File->Save As and save a copy.  I tend to name my files
like 'project_name-01', and after an hour or two (or any client
revisions) save as 'project_name-02', then '-03', '-04', etc.

There's a GIMP plug-in that adds an iterative save option (I've never
used it though):
http://registry.gimp.org/node/18873

For what it's worth I learned my lesson from Photoshop, not GIMP.  It
trashed a file I had been working on for over 6 hours and I was only
able to retrieve bits and pieces - nothing close to the full document.
 I had to start over.  Over the past 10 years I've seen trashed files
at least once from most of the Adobe suite, so I don't think you give
up on GIMP just yet.  A crash during the save process can be a very
dangerous thing, no matter which program you're using.

HTH,
Chris
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[Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread Jade
>On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Jade  wrote:
>> he thinks the EXIF data is still in there but he's too busy and I don't
know
>> what to do.
>
>IIRC, Gimp's format does not have any EXIF data. (And EXIF is genrally
>a JPEG thing, no?). Try comparing the size of the last save with
>previous saves, and see if the last one looks large enough to contain
>useful data. If the last save is too small to fit your image, you
>probably won't be able to extract useful data.
>
>

It was originally a camera photo that I used as background for a drawing and
he was able to tell me that I had a Canon bla bla bla although he didn't know
that. Also, if I had previous saves, I'd be fine... I saved the same file over
and over and now it's empty. It's about 70 Kb and I think that's too small. 

-- 
Jade (via www.gimpusers.com)
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Re: [Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-18 Thread Branko Vukelic
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Jade  wrote:
> he thinks the EXIF data is still in there but he's too busy and I don't know
> what to do.

IIRC, Gimp's format does not have any EXIF data. (And EXIF is genrally
a JPEG thing, no?). Try comparing the size of the last save with
previous saves, and see if the last one looks large enough to contain
useful data. If the last save is too small to fit your image, you
probably won't be able to extract useful data.

-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
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[Gimp-user] Help recovering a bad .xcf file

2010-06-17 Thread Jade
The other day I spent an inordinate amount of time seriously using GIMP for
the first time on a drawing. I spent a lot of time for an okay drawing and I
saved many, many times. Unfortunately, on my last save, the program crashed
and apparently corrupted my file. While I was working on the drawing, I could
see a thumbnail of the file on my desktop mirroring the work I was doing (ie:
I knew it was saving correctly), but after I brought it back up after the
crash, my file was "empty;" it had no layers, no anything but a transparent
background. My friend, who is technologically more advanced than me, said that
he thinks the EXIF data is still in there but he's too busy and I don't know
what to do. 

I read on several googled pages that it's possible to recover layers from
EXIF data, etc, and it would help me out a lot to recover even the line art. 

Any help is greatly appreciated! I'd really hate to leave GIMP on such a bad
note.

-- 
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