RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Zephyr Teachout]

What josh said :)

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:03 PM
To: Aldon Hynes
Cc: Zephyr Teachout; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

> Independent of the terminology, I believe it is crucial
> for any sort of online community building tool to facilitate 
> interaction
> between the users above and beyond merely listing information.  I am
> concerned from what I am hearing, that such functionality seems to be
> missing from 'Deanster' and I feel that needs to be addressed.

What you see now is an attempt at a first iteration of this service. I 
find the three-step development methodology of "crawl, walk, run" to 
generally be helpful.

Right now all the campaign has is a bank of email addresses and no way 
to connect them. Step one is to let people put a face to the name, seek 
each other out and make connections. Step two will be allowing them to 
express themselves a little more through the system. Step three will be 
layering on the xpertweb tools to handle reputation and tasks.

> It may be that it is best addressed by avoiding too strong a 
> bifurcation
> between 'Deanster' and 'DeanSpace'.

Indeed. When it comes to creating voluminous content and original forms 
of expression, we need to trust that people will find a place for that 
in the wider deanspace (or just online in general), and can link to 
that via their profile. This is the same as how I link to my own blog 
from my ryze profile.

> P.S.  Personally, I think the Friendster UI sucks.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose. The layout on Ryze is 
highly overcrowded and chaotic to my eye. Friendster is a lot more 
simple.

cheers
-j

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Joshua Koenig]

Independent of the terminology, I believe it is crucial
for any sort of online community building tool to facilitate 
interaction
between the users above and beyond merely listing information.  I am
concerned from what I am hearing, that such functionality seems to be
missing from 'Deanster' and I feel that needs to be addressed.
What you see now is an attempt at a first iteration of this service. I 
find the three-step development methodology of "crawl, walk, run" to 
generally be helpful.

Right now all the campaign has is a bank of email addresses and no way 
to connect them. Step one is to let people put a face to the name, seek 
each other out and make connections. Step two will be allowing them to 
express themselves a little more through the system. Step three will be 
layering on the xpertweb tools to handle reputation and tasks.

It may be that it is best addressed by avoiding too strong a 
bifurcation
between 'Deanster' and 'DeanSpace'.
Indeed. When it comes to creating voluminous content and original forms 
of expression, we need to trust that people will find a place for that 
in the wider deanspace (or just online in general), and can link to 
that via their profile. This is the same as how I link to my own blog 
from my ryze profile.

P.S.  Personally, I think the Friendster UI sucks.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. The layout on Ryze is 
highly overcrowded and chaotic to my eye. Friendster is a lot more 
simple.

cheers
-j

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc and other stuff

[CMR]

> That last sentence, cast in bronze. "Ours is but to choose
> individually."
>
> Whatever your opinion on the Dean campaign and how they interact with
> us, it's up to individuals to make their choices. This group is an
> informal association, and I don't think we're going to make a
> collective decision on whether we're "in" or "out."
>
> Further, I don't think we should try to tell one another where their
> participation should go. Not that anyone's tried this, but I could see
> it happening in the future. I trust in the divinity of our collective
> forward momentum.

Looks like we're in agreement once again, Josh.

The beauty as things have evolved is that there's emerged more and less "in"
components to be involved with, so something for everyone. It's my personal
opinion that it's the the persistence of both approaches, in the context of
lateral authority, that will allow for complementary as opposed to
conflictive purposes and thus overall growth. And it could conceivably
increase the chances that the project survives in the event that fickle
fortune frowns upon it's central purpose.

Cheers
CMR

<--enter gratuitous quotation that implies my profundity here-->

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc and other stuff

[Joshua Koenig]

Here's where I begin and end on this.

It is in fact the nature of the "beast" and one can choose, as a 
"player" to work for
change within it (and risk being consumed by it), or work outside for 
it
(and risk being "used", then ultimately sidelined by it) or choose to 
sit it
out and navel gaze to the end of days. All three have selling and 
damning
potentials. Ours is but to choose individually.
That last sentence, cast in bronze. "Ours is but to choose 
individually."

Whatever your opinion on the Dean campaign and how they interact with 
us, it's up to individuals to make their choices. This group is an 
informal association, and I don't think we're going to make a 
collective decision on whether we're "in" or "out."

Further, I don't think we should try to tell one another where their 
participation should go. Not that anyone's tried this, but I could see 
it happening in the future. I trust in the divinity of our collective 
forward momentum.

-j

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc and other stuff

[CMR]

>  interested>
>

Stop yer scarin me!

> I would be tempted to tie this back to some of the paradigm issues I hear
> discussed concerning the campaign.  To what extent are connections
> centralized?  That smacks of a top-down approach as opposed to a bottom up
> approach, particularly in terms of trust.
>

Permission to speak frankly? Pre-emptive qualification; IMHO and just that.

I see this issue as emblematic of the inherent conflict born of the
consensual (in that anybody who didn't like it could/would've bailed by now)
choice to designate the project, at least partially "of  Dean" as opposed to
"just" for him.

For all the "rhetoric" issued by the campaign touting a pioneering online
"grassroots" effort, ultimately what was a small rural state governer's
campaign has officially hit the "big time". Big press, big money, big time.
Despite the fact that they largely owe this phenomena to a genuine
decentralized grassroots movement does not render them such; just the
opposite is likely the case, in fact. And, for good or ill, it may well be
that this has to be in that, like the Clinton "war room" scenario, tight
centralized, top down control of the process and the "message" is requisite
to conducting a competitive campaign against, first, the old Dem machine
candidates, then the Bush corporate juggernaught.

But centralized the campaign was. More centralized is has become. And ever
more tightly, even obsessively centralized will it seek to be if the fates
"reward" our hero with the crown of nike (no, not the shoe guys; although
Howard may get an endorsement contract). This (again, IMHO) despite any
assurances to the contrary from our rather colorfully named campaign
contact. I'm genuinely pleased that such a talented and astute "player" is
on our side, but I harbor no illusions that, as/if things heat up, she'll
play ball or she'll be out; the campaign can't afford to play it otherwise
and prevail. (I'll inject a little constructive criticism here Z: in the NPR
piece you refered to "we are building tools to" - paraphrased - , w/o
giving credit to the project; if you did give credit and it just didn't make
the edit, apologies up front).

As in every social, political or institutional system at least since
somebody realized you could grow your own food, money and power will
profoundly effect the nature and direction of the organization; period. If
you suppose it will not in this instance, then I'd like to discuss with you
off list the purchase of a little bridge I know of in brooklyn NY. It is in
fact the nature of the "beast" and one can choose, as a "player" to work for
change within it (and risk being consumed by it), or work outside for it
(and risk being "used", then ultimately sidelined by it) or choose to sit it
out and navel gaze to the end of days. All three have selling and damning
potentials. Ours is but to choose individually.

Now, (to para-phrase tricky Dick) let me be perfectly clear here. I find The
Dean movement to be the most exciting and insiring political movement in my
liftime (and I'm an old fart!), bar none. I will labor for the man (<
lowercase) in, out or otherwise as long as he is in the race (then, he'll
either be prez or I'll work for the "anbody but that cracker dubya in 2004!"
campaign) But I'm not fooling myself here. I'm toiling for an upper
middleclass white guy (though he's not as rich as Nader) who is in the
process of creating a centralized, top-down political machine in order to
survive that street fight known as the american political process. It ain't
pretty, it ain't self-organized but it beats the living crap outta 4 more
years of the greatest enemy of freedom, world peace and this good green
earth in memory. So I'm in.

But whatever level of "control" the campaign ultimately asserts over the
membership, tasking, information and "souls" of whatever aspect of the
project, I'll personally push for and support keeping as much of it as is
feasible independent, decentralized, laterally administered and, yes,
self-organized. I'll do so because I truly believe that's the best path for
the future of the project, myself, for Howard Dean's campaign, and
grassroots movements world-wide.

> So, in light of this, I would encourage those interested to think about
how
> Deanster as well as DeanSpace end up reflecting and affecting the nature
of
> the organization.

Agreed and Peace be with us all (ok, you can let loose on menow)

CMR

<--enter gratuitous quotation that implies my profundity here-->

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Aldon Hynes]

I guess this brings up a few different concerns.  First, as I noted in my
previous email, I worry about the demarcation between the two groups.

First off, blog entries and comments are done by individuals, not groups, so
I am not so sure that the differentiation is that clear.  In addition, I
question of the safety of even a simple moderated group.  When the group
gets very large it becomes even more problematic.

I would be tempted to tie this back to some of the paradigm issues I hear
discussed concerning the campaign.  To what extent are connections
centralized?  That smacks of a top-down approach as opposed to a bottom up
approach, particularly in terms of trust.

To the extent that we attempt to establish trust by providing a safe simple
moderated connectivity, the trust is centralized, and if the trust is
violated, it damages the trust in the central authority.  If, on the other
hand, connectivity is decentralized, people need to return to their modes of
impression formation to determine the level of trust.  The abilities to self
organize are much greater and people are relying on their own abilities
instead of some centralized authority.  This is based on observed
interaction, and hence the importance of tools such as blogging.

So, in light of this, I would encourage those interested to think about how
Deanster as well as DeanSpace end up reflecting and affecting the nature of
the organization.



Aldon


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Zephyr Teachout
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:46 PM
To: 'Aldon Hynes'; 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


Aldon,

I see at as two different kinds of connection we are trying to enable:

(1) end to end individuals(friendster)
(2) end to end group to group (blogging --deanspace)

Both are critical. The latter is distributed, the former is centralized,
and they work together. The former is simple, and moderated, and safe --
the latter is someone complex, nonmoderated, and highly expressive. I
think that answers your concerns, which are critical. I think its also
important to give people very safe, small steps for political
engagement.

Z

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute


-Original Message-
From: Aldon Hynes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 2:57 PM
To: Zephyr Teachout; 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything that happened over the
weekend
while I was off at the folk music festival.

So, I'm sorry if I'm covering things that have already been covered, but
I
would like to throw in my two cents here.

Zephyr, I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of public
expression in whatever sort of space is created.  The public expression
is
crucial in establishing a sense of a cohesive community and in
facilitating
different people in connecting.

Let me illustrate:  On Friendster, I am connected to 157232 people in my
Personal Network, through 17 friends.  However, friendster doesn't
facilitate communicating with others in a manner that develops
community.
As such, I haven't made any useful new contacts.

On the other hand, communities like www.ryze.com and www.ecademy.com do
a
much better job of promoting community through things like blogging.

So, I strongly encourage facilities to promote blogging.  Granted, there
are
other venues, including posting comments on the official blog, having
your
own blogs, etc., but I believe having blogs, forums, or similar tools as
part of Deanspace will make it much more effective.

Zephyr raises the issue of moderation.  DFA doesn't have the staff to
vet
who posts or what posts remain if we have a giant network of people
posting.
However, following the paradigm of self organizing systems, and the
example
of DMOZ, I don't believe that is important.  Every site that gets set up
will have its administrators and/or moderators.  This is no different
than
the close to 400 mailing lists that have already been set up.  These
moderators can be as controlling or free flowing as they feel
comfortable
with and fits their particular community.

Part of the beauty of a truly distributed system like this, is that I
can
(or should be able to), as moderator of one system decide what content I
pick up from other systems.  This provides a natural feedback system.
Those
sites that develop a good sense of community through an appropriate
level of
moderation will end up producing more valuable content, which will get
more
widely distributed.

So, that's my two cents on the role of blogs, content, moderation and
community building within DeanSpace.

Comments?

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Aldon Hynes]

I was missing the the terminology and the differentiation between 'Deanster'
and 'DeanSpace'.  Independent of the terminology, I believe it is crucial
for any sort of online community building tool to facilitate interaction
between the users above and beyond merely listing information.  I am
concerned from what I am hearing, that such functionality seems to be
missing from 'Deanster' and I feel that needs to be addressed.

It may be that it is best addressed by avoiding too strong a bifurcation
between 'Deanster' and 'DeanSpace'.

The question arises how do you establish an impression of other people in
the network, how is reputation established, maintained and communicated to
others?  These, of course, being fundamental building blocks to cohesion
which is crucial to people working effectively together.

Aldon

P.S.  Personally, I think the Friendster UI sucks.

-Original Message-
From: Joshua Koenig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:43 PM
To: Aldon Hynes
Cc: Zephyr Teachout; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc



Aldon,

I think you're missing part of the picture here. DeanSpace (e.g.
volunteer effort, community websites, blogs, etc) and the Deanster
application (hosted and operated by the campaign directly) are
logically separate. Deanster wouldn't include blogs for users, though
it could include a guestbook ala Ryze.

Personally, I think there are lessons to be learned from both of these
systems. Friendster has a vastly superior user interface to Ryze, but
Ryze allows people to join groups of interest in addition to having a
network of friends.

Your Deanster profile could of course include links back to your blog
or personal website. What we're talking about in terms of "user
content" is giving people quick, focused opportunities to offer their
opinion or explain what interests them about Dean or what they're
working on accomplishing.

We actually want to take this a step further in terms of adding
xpertweb functionality so that people can use the Deanster network to
get things done.


Hope that helps
-josh

p.s. It won't be called Deanster, by the way, but it makes a good
codename for now.


> Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything that happened over the
> weekend
> while I was off at the folk music festival.
>
> So, I'm sorry if I'm covering things that have already been covered,
> but I
> would like to throw in my two cents here.
>
> Zephyr, I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of public
> expression in whatever sort of space is created.  The public
> expression is
> crucial in establishing a sense of a cohesive community and in
> facilitating
> different people in connecting.
>
> Let me illustrate:  On Friendster, I am connected to 157232 people in
> my
> Personal Network, through 17 friends.  However, friendster doesn't
> facilitate communicating with others in a manner that develops
> community.
> As such, I haven't made any useful new contacts.
>
> On the other hand, communities like www.ryze.com and www.ecademy.com
> do a
> much better job of promoting community through things like blogging.
>
> So, I strongly encourage facilities to promote blogging.  Granted,
> there are
> other venues, including posting comments on the official blog, having
> your
> own blogs, etc., but I believe having blogs, forums, or similar tools
> as
> part of Deanspace will make it much more effective.
>
> Zephyr raises the issue of moderation.  DFA doesn't have the staff to
> vet
> who posts or what posts remain if we have a giant network of people
> posting.
> However, following the paradigm of self organizing systems, and the
> example
> of DMOZ, I don't believe that is important.  Every site that gets set
> up
> will have its administrators and/or moderators.  This is no different
> than
> the close to 400 mailing lists that have already been set up.  These
> moderators can be as controlling or free flowing as they feel
> comfortable
> with and fits their particular community.
>
> Part of the beauty of a truly distributed system like this, is that I
> can
> (or should be able to), as moderator of one system decide what content
> I
> pick up from other systems.  This provides a natural feedback system.
> Those
> sites that develop a good sense of community through an appropriate
> level of
> moderation will end up producing more valuable content, which will get
> more
> widely distributed.
>
> So, that's my two cents on the role of blogs, content, moderation and
> community building within DeanSpace.
>
> Comments?
>
> Aldon
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTE

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Zephyr Teachout]

Aldon,

I see at as two different kinds of connection we are trying to enable:

(1) end to end individuals(friendster)
(2) end to end group to group (blogging --deanspace)

Both are critical. The latter is distributed, the former is centralized,
and they work together. The former is simple, and moderated, and safe --
the latter is someone complex, nonmoderated, and highly expressive. I
think that answers your concerns, which are critical. I think its also
important to give people very safe, small steps for political
engagement. 

Z

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
 

-Original Message-
From: Aldon Hynes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 2:57 PM
To: Zephyr Teachout; 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything that happened over the
weekend
while I was off at the folk music festival.

So, I'm sorry if I'm covering things that have already been covered, but
I
would like to throw in my two cents here.

Zephyr, I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of public
expression in whatever sort of space is created.  The public expression
is
crucial in establishing a sense of a cohesive community and in
facilitating
different people in connecting.

Let me illustrate:  On Friendster, I am connected to 157232 people in my
Personal Network, through 17 friends.  However, friendster doesn't
facilitate communicating with others in a manner that develops
community.
As such, I haven't made any useful new contacts.

On the other hand, communities like www.ryze.com and www.ecademy.com do
a
much better job of promoting community through things like blogging.

So, I strongly encourage facilities to promote blogging.  Granted, there
are
other venues, including posting comments on the official blog, having
your
own blogs, etc., but I believe having blogs, forums, or similar tools as
part of Deanspace will make it much more effective.

Zephyr raises the issue of moderation.  DFA doesn't have the staff to
vet
who posts or what posts remain if we have a giant network of people
posting.
However, following the paradigm of self organizing systems, and the
example
of DMOZ, I don't believe that is important.  Every site that gets set up
will have its administrators and/or moderators.  This is no different
than
the close to 400 mailing lists that have already been set up.  These
moderators can be as controlling or free flowing as they feel
comfortable
with and fits their particular community.

Part of the beauty of a truly distributed system like this, is that I
can
(or should be able to), as moderator of one system decide what content I
pick up from other systems.  This provides a natural feedback system.
Those
sites that develop a good sense of community through an appropriate
level of
moderation will end up producing more valuable content, which will get
more
widely distributed.

So, that's my two cents on the role of blogs, content, moderation and
community building within DeanSpace.

Comments?

Aldon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Zephyr Teachout
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:53 PM
To: 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)

The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to help
make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide them.

The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
(1) there are other venues for it, and
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
concern, not dissent).

I'm thinking that we'll just modify our extensive registration to
include all these elements (we're modifying anyway), and then feed th

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Joshua Koenig]

Aldon,

I think you're missing part of the picture here. DeanSpace (e.g. 
volunteer effort, community websites, blogs, etc) and the Deanster 
application (hosted and operated by the campaign directly) are 
logically separate. Deanster wouldn't include blogs for users, though 
it could include a guestbook ala Ryze.

Personally, I think there are lessons to be learned from both of these 
systems. Friendster has a vastly superior user interface to Ryze, but 
Ryze allows people to join groups of interest in addition to having a 
network of friends.

Your Deanster profile could of course include links back to your blog 
or personal website. What we're talking about in terms of "user 
content" is giving people quick, focused opportunities to offer their 
opinion or explain what interests them about Dean or what they're 
working on accomplishing.

We actually want to take this a step further in terms of adding 
xpertweb functionality so that people can use the Deanster network to 
get things done.

Hope that helps
-josh
p.s. It won't be called Deanster, by the way, but it makes a good 
codename for now.


Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything that happened over the 
weekend
while I was off at the folk music festival.

So, I'm sorry if I'm covering things that have already been covered, 
but I
would like to throw in my two cents here.

Zephyr, I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of public
expression in whatever sort of space is created.  The public 
expression is
crucial in establishing a sense of a cohesive community and in 
facilitating
different people in connecting.

Let me illustrate:  On Friendster, I am connected to 157232 people in 
my
Personal Network, through 17 friends.  However, friendster doesn't
facilitate communicating with others in a manner that develops 
community.
As such, I haven't made any useful new contacts.

On the other hand, communities like www.ryze.com and www.ecademy.com 
do a
much better job of promoting community through things like blogging.

So, I strongly encourage facilities to promote blogging.  Granted, 
there are
other venues, including posting comments on the official blog, having 
your
own blogs, etc., but I believe having blogs, forums, or similar tools 
as
part of Deanspace will make it much more effective.

Zephyr raises the issue of moderation.  DFA doesn't have the staff to 
vet
who posts or what posts remain if we have a giant network of people 
posting.
However, following the paradigm of self organizing systems, and the 
example
of DMOZ, I don't believe that is important.  Every site that gets set 
up
will have its administrators and/or moderators.  This is no different 
than
the close to 400 mailing lists that have already been set up.  These
moderators can be as controlling or free flowing as they feel 
comfortable
with and fits their particular community.

Part of the beauty of a truly distributed system like this, is that I 
can
(or should be able to), as moderator of one system decide what content 
I
pick up from other systems.  This provides a natural feedback system.  
Those
sites that develop a good sense of community through an appropriate 
level of
moderation will end up producing more valuable content, which will get 
more
widely distributed.

So, that's my two cents on the role of blogs, content, moderation and
community building within DeanSpace.
Comments?

Aldon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Zephyr Teachout
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:53 PM
To: 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)
The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to 
help
make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide them.

The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
(1) there are other venues for it, and
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
co

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Aldon Hynes]

Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything that happened over the weekend
while I was off at the folk music festival.

So, I'm sorry if I'm covering things that have already been covered, but I
would like to throw in my two cents here.

Zephyr, I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of public
expression in whatever sort of space is created.  The public expression is
crucial in establishing a sense of a cohesive community and in facilitating
different people in connecting.

Let me illustrate:  On Friendster, I am connected to 157232 people in my
Personal Network, through 17 friends.  However, friendster doesn't
facilitate communicating with others in a manner that develops community.
As such, I haven't made any useful new contacts.

On the other hand, communities like www.ryze.com and www.ecademy.com do a
much better job of promoting community through things like blogging.

So, I strongly encourage facilities to promote blogging.  Granted, there are
other venues, including posting comments on the official blog, having your
own blogs, etc., but I believe having blogs, forums, or similar tools as
part of Deanspace will make it much more effective.

Zephyr raises the issue of moderation.  DFA doesn't have the staff to vet
who posts or what posts remain if we have a giant network of people posting.
However, following the paradigm of self organizing systems, and the example
of DMOZ, I don't believe that is important.  Every site that gets set up
will have its administrators and/or moderators.  This is no different than
the close to 400 mailing lists that have already been set up.  These
moderators can be as controlling or free flowing as they feel comfortable
with and fits their particular community.

Part of the beauty of a truly distributed system like this, is that I can
(or should be able to), as moderator of one system decide what content I
pick up from other systems.  This provides a natural feedback system.  Those
sites that develop a good sense of community through an appropriate level of
moderation will end up producing more valuable content, which will get more
widely distributed.

So, that's my two cents on the role of blogs, content, moderation and
community building within DeanSpace.

Comments?

Aldon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Zephyr Teachout
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:53 PM
To: 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)

The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to help
make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide them.

The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
(1) there are other venues for it, and
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
concern, not dissent).

I'm thinking that we'll just modify our extensive registration to
include all these elements (we're modifying anyway), and then feed the
Data to deanster. The tricks then, are

(1) how to display the information
(2) how to search

Right? The critical thing for the search is that people who are
currently online show up first, but if we start with a really clumsy
search (almost like an excel spreadsheet) we could at least get going.
We're a shoot first improve later campaign, in many ways, but esp. for
this one -- the basic functionality will be heaven for people.

It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
programming guru.

What do you all think?

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:57 PM
To: [E

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Joshua Koenig]

I built this in after talking with Britt about the idea for future 
Howard Dean sites to include rotating "volunteer statements" as part 
of the design.
That's funny, Zack and I were talking about something similar on AIM 
as part of the endorse module (but we kind of agreed to put it into 
something separate).
I think it's a dynamite idea myself. Just like how if you go to 
theonion.com, they have a featured personal ad; this will encourage 
people to put their stuff out there.

just my $0.02
-josh

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Lynn Siprelle]

I built this in after talking with Britt about the idea for future 
Howard Dean sites to include rotating "volunteer statements" as part 
of the design.
That's funny, Zack and I were talking about something similar on AIM as 
part of the endorse module (but we kind of agreed to put it into 
something separate).

L

-
Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan
The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/
Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/
People-Powered Howard! http://www.deanforamerica.com/

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Zephyr Teachout]

Agreed. Ultimately there will be more room for this, but I want to focus
on basic model first. Also, the fact of limited expression will actually
drive people to two things we're excited about -- conversations
w/eachother and setting up their own nodes.

Z

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

> The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
> not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
> Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
> (1) there are other venues for it, and
> (2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
> moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there
is
> no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
> forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
> the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
> routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
> kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the
big
> concern, not dissent).

I built this in after talking with Britt about the idea for future 
Howard Dean sites to include rotating "volunteer statements" as part of 
the design. Also, for this to work users need to be at least able to 
tell other people a little about them.

If you're worried about Trolls (people trying to sabotage the system 
socially), the best way to deal is to have a "flag for review" button 
ala Friendster. Let the users do 90% of the moderation for you.

> It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
> features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
> programming guru.

Yes, a phased approach is best. I'll turn out some more detail today. 
Then we start breaking this (and MetaDean) into discreet chunks and 
handing off the work. You know, the fun part.

cheers
-j

Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Joshua Koenig]

The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
(1) there are other venues for it, and
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
concern, not dissent).
I built this in after talking with Britt about the idea for future 
Howard Dean sites to include rotating "volunteer statements" as part of 
the design. Also, for this to work users need to be at least able to 
tell other people a little about them.

If you're worried about Trolls (people trying to sabotage the system 
socially), the best way to deal is to have a "flag for review" button 
ala Friendster. Let the users do 90% of the moderation for you.

It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
programming guru.
Yes, a phased approach is best. I'll turn out some more detail today. 
Then we start breaking this (and MetaDean) into discreet chunks and 
handing off the work. You know, the fun part.

cheers
-j

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Jon Lebkowsky]

Very cool, Josh. Suggest you look at The ryze.com as well as Friendster to
get a sense how things might work. Also check out that Ryze user agreement
and perhaps others - we need to have a user agreement in place for Deanster
and other interactive environments (I have a good model that's simpler than
Ryze's that we cd use).

Re. identity, exposure shd be in the hands of the participant, who shd have
an easy way to select what details others can see, or (as at Ryze) to expose
details to selected other members.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:
> This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
> running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
> friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)
>
> The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
> find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
> priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to
> help make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide
> them.
>
> The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
> not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
> Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
> (1) there are other venues for it, and
> (2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
> moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there
> is no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links
> to forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this
> is the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who
> can routinely check every new person and we don't have people who
> want to kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts
> (that's the big concern, not dissent).
>
> I'm thinking that we'll just modify our extensive registration to
> include all these elements (we're modifying anyway), and then feed the
> Data to deanster. The tricks then, are
>
> (1) how to display the information
> (2) how to search
>
> Right? The critical thing for the search is that people who are
> currently online show up first, but if we start with a really clumsy
> search (almost like an excel spreadsheet) we could at least get going.
> We're a shoot first improve later campaign, in many ways, but esp. for
> this one -- the basic functionality will be heaven for people.
>
> It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
> features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
> programming guru.
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Zephyr Teachout
> Internet Organizing & Outreach
> Dean for America
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
> Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
> Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:57 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
>
>
> Here's a draft of my design doc for Deanster (a.k.a. the talend
> database, the visible volunteers, the "front room"). Please excuse the
> parts that aren't quite filled in yet and feel free to correct me
> where I'm wrong:
>
> http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?TalentDatabase
>
> peace
> -josh
>
> 
> Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate!
> Elect Howard Dean President in 2004!
> http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Zephyr Teachout]

Oh, and 

(1) I'll start the profile table (to match with our data guy)

and

(2) I thought Phil's Indiana's comments were very useful, and spot on in
a lot of ways. I think the RSS feeds will be used in modules (am I using
the right terminology? Likely not) mostly by existing groups, and then
you'll see the following development:

get involved in campaign
leads to
sign up for Deanster (working Name, I know I know)
leads to
finding friends and making contacts w/similar interests
leads to
lets start our own page
leads to 
hey, there's a way to start our own page and stay connected (deanspace(

My hunch is you'll see 500,000 on Deanster, and 500 or so drupal groups,
and any more of the latter would be too many. But we'll see! You never
know, which is part of the excitement -- we do know that what you're
working on is responding to real grassroots needs right now, but not how
folks will end up using them. 

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


Here's a draft of my design doc for Deanster (a.k.a. the talend 
database, the visible volunteers, the "front room"). Please excuse the 
parts that aren't quite filled in yet and feel free to correct me where 
I'm wrong:

http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?TalentDatabase

peace
-josh


Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate!
Elect Howard Dean President in 2004!
http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/

RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc

[Zephyr Teachout]

This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)

The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to help
make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide them. 

The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because 
(1) there are other venues for it, and 
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
concern, not dissent). 

I'm thinking that we'll just modify our extensive registration to
include all these elements (we're modifying anyway), and then feed the
Data to deanster. The tricks then, are 

(1) how to display the information
(2) how to search

Right? The critical thing for the search is that people who are
currently online show up first, but if we start with a really clumsy
search (almost like an excel spreadsheet) we could at least get going.
We're a shoot first improve later campaign, in many ways, but esp. for
this one -- the basic functionality will be heaven for people. 

It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
programming guru.

What do you all think?

Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc


Here's a draft of my design doc for Deanster (a.k.a. the talend 
database, the visible volunteers, the "front room"). Please excuse the 
parts that aren't quite filled in yet and feel free to correct me where 
I'm wrong:

http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?TalentDatabase

peace
-josh


Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate!
Elect Howard Dean President in 2004!
http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/