date:20230905

Your sample assembled fine but abended 0C1.  I made some minor mods. 
Hope you don't mind my pretend German in the comments :)


The biggest problem is trying to use R15 as a base.  That gets messed up 
by OPEN.  The other problem is LA instead of L when loading R13 for the 
return.  I mix those up a lot myself.


https://www.mildredbrennan.com/mvs/hello.png

P.S. My wife and I were in München last May.  Beautiful city and it was 
fun trying to understand the language based on a high-school class.


On 9/5/2023 6:19 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:

FWIW:

ChatGPT could have used this ASSEMBLER program, which I posted some 
years ago
to German Wikpedia ... this does not do the addition of two integers, 
but instead it
is a simple Hello World program. In contrast to the program provided by 
ChatGPT,

it has no errors (I hope) and it will work.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Hallo-Welt-Programmen/Assembler#IBM-Mainframe-ASSEMBLER 



Kind regards

Bernd



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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

2023-09-05 Thread Andrew Rowley


On 6/09/2023 12:22 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote:

What is "Java"? If it's just the language, it's not that big. But if it's all 
of the classes as well, ...


I think it would have to include the libraries/classes that are included 
in a standard distribution. I'm sure there is a specification for what 
must be included in each Java version.


--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

Well, it depends.  My #ENTER allocates a large stack area for all parms 
and save areas used within the macro set (and associated programs). 
That way each subprogram doesn't have to do it's own getmain and 
chaining.  The plan was to be able to code ASM with some of the ease of 
C coding, especially around string processing which can be pretty 
difficult in ASM.


On 9/5/2023 7:27 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:03:53 -0700, Tom Brennan wrote:


Oops... Yes!  I was thinking ENTER/EXIT.  My own macro set uses #ENTER
and #EXIT.  I put the pound sign on everything so there's no confusion
with real instructions or IBM macros (well, at least I hope!)


At that, I'll switch to the Dark Side for a while.  If IBM's macros were good
enough programmers wouldn't be tempted to devise alternatives.

I've worked for a couple projects that did so.  One enhancement was to
extend the RSA so R13 could be used as a base for working storage,
a practice that others have harshly criticized as dangerous.  Another
was to preserve the CC through exit, which I disliked (didn't work on 370
because it used IPM, SPM.)



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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

Learning a useful subset is not that hard. Learning everything in HLASM and in 
the architecture is much harder. As a practical matter, you have to concentrate 
on the z, HLASM, z/OS, etc. facilities that are most relevant to your job and 
pick up more as time allows.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Matt Hogstrom 
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 12:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

My take is that Assembler is just a language and honestly I don’t think its
all that hard to learn.  What it does require is more understanding of the
OS and the ability to setup for calls to other services.

The higher languages simply obscure, or encapsulate, those low level
services.

I use Metal C for new code as it is more easily understood by developers.
That said, there are times for pure assembler code and I enjoy it.  I
started out as a batch assembler programmer but I was drawn to understand
the OS and its structure.  Assembler was the way to interface and now there
are other options.

As an ISV we want Assembler programmers.  In a business, I’d focus on the
languages that the market understands.  The important thing is to not be
religious about a language.  Its just a tool.

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 08:22 David Elliot  wrote:

> Very little from what I see. What little
>  there is is stupid stuff like reverse engineering code so that the client
> can rewrite it in JAVA or whatever the language of the day is.
>

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

2023-09-05 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 19:03:53 -0700, Tom Brennan wrote:

>Oops... Yes!  I was thinking ENTER/EXIT.  My own macro set uses #ENTER
>and #EXIT.  I put the pound sign on everything so there's no confusion
>with real instructions or IBM macros (well, at least I hope!)
>
At that, I'll switch to the Dark Side for a while.  If IBM's macros were good
enough programmers wouldn't be tempted to devise alternatives.

I've worked for a couple projects that did so.  One enhancement was to
extend the RSA so R13 could be used as a base for working storage,
a practice that others have harshly criticized as dangerous.  Another
was to preserve the CC through exit, which I disliked (didn't work on 370
because it used IPM, SPM.)

-- 
gil

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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

What is "Java"? If it's just the language, it's not that big. But if it's all 
of the classes as well, ...

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Matt Hogstrom 
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 1:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

Yup.  Context is King.  People talk about languages like Java, etc.  The real 
question in my opinion is what Runtime?  CICS, IMS, WebSphere, …   Language is 
only part of the equation; where it runs is the key.

Matt Hogstrom
PGP key 0F143BC1

> On Sep 5, 2023, at 10:58, Tom Brennan  wrote:
>
> The instructions, registers, etc. are not that difficult to learn.  It's the 
> macros, control blocks, subsystems, interrupts, memory layout, SVC's, (and I 
> could go on and on) that can be the real value in doing ASM programming.
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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

In most languages these days, the most productive thing to do is to initially 
learn some core concepts to get you up and running, then gradually learn more. 
Both the assembler and the architecture that it supports are more complicated 
than in S/360 days, to say nothing of operating systems and application 
subsystems.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of M. 
Ray Mullins 
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 1:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

Thank you, Matt. I'm humbled. I keep forgetting how long ago that was.

For context - this response was to a specific question regarding
learning assembler. Basic assembler programming knowledge is a good
thing to have on your resume, because it gives you the insights to how
programs work on the platform.

A "cheap" way to learn some assembler basics is to turn on the LIST
options for the COBOL, C/C++, PL/I, and FORTRAN compilers. You can see
how language statements get converted to the machine instructions. It's
very helpful in understanding how COBOL deals with MOVEs with mixed
USAGE and computational verbs with different USAGE and PIC clauses.

On 2023-09-05 09:37, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> FWIW, I’ve known Ray for as long as I’ve been programming in Assembler.
> Ray is the man.
>
>
>>> You guys know who Ray Mullins is right?
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

The "version history" of the German Wikipedia article shows that I added
this ASSEMBLER source code in 2015.
The page already existed, but there was no Mainframe example, which
motivated me to add one.
I thought some minutes about adding another source using the ASSEMBLER
of the German Telefunken TR 440 mainframe
of the 1970s (TAS = Telefunken Assembler Sprache), but I didn't succeed
so far. That was the machine which
impressed me most when I started my studies of computer science in 1977
at Stuttgart university.

https://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachrichtenfoto/grossrechner-tr-440-von-telefunken-1970-nachrichtenfoto/542347199

The comments under the article which tell some facts about ASSEMBLER
source code layout (columns 10 and 16 etc.)

have been added later by another Wikipedia author and are partly wrong.

This conversation motivated me to correct the comments ... we'll see how
long it takes until my corrections are

verified by the Wikipedia people and online.

All in German ... sorry about that.

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 03:35 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

Maybe the program disqualifies because of the German comments?
But: this should be no problem for ChatGPT ... translation to english ...

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 03:31 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

What I meant to say:

it would have been better, if ChatGPT had used this (my) ASSEMBLER
program from German Wikipedia ...

but apparently, it found the bad program from another source ???
Bill did not ask for a certain logic in his request; he simply asked
for some mainframe Assembler program

(not specific). So my Hello World program would qualify, too.

It would be interesting to know how ChatGPT determines which sources
are more reliable than others ...

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 03:19 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

FWIW:

ChatGPT could have used this ASSEMBLER program, which I posted some
years ago
to German Wikpedia ... this does not do the addition of two
integers, but instead it
is a simple Hello World program. In contrast to the program provided
by ChatGPT,

it has no errors (I hope) and it will work.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Hallo-Welt-Programmen/Assembler#IBM-Mainframe-ASSEMBLER

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 01:47 schrieb Bill Johnson:

I never presented it as a working model.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 7:36 PM, Bernd Oppolzer
wrote:

I am not bashing it. I am simply telling you that it has a bunch of
errors and it will not work.

It's kind of interesting to me that, while I try to answer repectfully
to your mails,
almost every answer from you contains the word "idiot" or "idiotic",
which is the same in German, so I understand that well.
Is that a specific way to support your arguments?

Am 06.09.2023 um 01:31 schrieb Bill Johnson:
I find it stunning the technology people are trying to hang onto
the past (assembler) and bashing the future. (ChatGPT) Or perhaps
that’s what aging people do.

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Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

The name of the song is called Haddock's Eyes.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
David Spiegel <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2023 2:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Ray Mullins on Assembler demand.

Hi Ray,
You said: "... SAMPLIB(IEEACTRT) ..."
Don't you mean SAMPLIB(SMFEXITS) //IEFACTRT?
(IEEx is Console-related; IEFx is SMF-related)

Regards,
David

On 2023-09-05 13:23, M. Ray Mullins wrote:
> There's a bit of context that is lost here. I purposely said
> "invisible hand", playing on the imagery. But just because that's what
> the owner of the "invisible hand" wants doesn't necessarily mean
> that's happening.
>
> Metal C in a JES2 environment is extremely difficult to implement,
> which is why you're now seeing the JES2 policy direction. IMHO if IBM
> had provided Metal C PROLOG/EPILOG for JES2 and z/OS exits, as well as
> APIs covering the common macros*, I think would have seen more Metal C
> take-up. I presented a few times at SHARE about converting
> SAMPLIB(IEEACTRT) to Metal C. I originally envisioned it as a
> "how-to", but it became instead a user experience, as my experience
> was mixed.
>
> On 2023-09-05 09:39, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> Metal C, exactly what Mullins said is replacing assembler. In the
>> end, my contention in the beginning is proving truer by the day. And
>> you’re right, assembler isn’t that hard to learn and not hard to
>> replace,
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 12:36 PM, Matt Hogstrom
>>  wrote:
>>
>> My take is that Assembler is just a language and honestly I don’t
>> think its
>> all that hard to learn.  What it does require is more understanding
>> of the
>> OS and the ability to setup for calls to other services.
>>
>> The higher languages simply obscure, or encapsulate, those low level
>> services.
>>
>> I use Metal C for new code as it is more easily understood by
>> developers.
>> That said, there are times for pure assembler code and I enjoy it.  I
>> started out as a batch assembler programmer but I was drawn to
>> understand
>> the OS and its structure.  Assembler was the way to interface and now
>> there
>> are other options.
>>
>> As an ISV we want Assembler programmers.  In a business, I’d focus on
>> the
>> languages that the market understands.  The important thing is to not be
>> religious about a language.  Its just a tool.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 08:22 David Elliot  wrote:
>>
>>> Very little from what I see. What little
>>>there is is stupid stuff like reverse engineering code so that
>>> the client
>>> can rewrite it in JAVA or whatever the language of the day is.
>>>
>>
>
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

Oops... Yes!  I was thinking ENTER/EXIT.  My own macro set uses #ENTER 
and #EXIT.  I put the pound sign on everything so there's no confusion 
with real instructions or IBM macros (well, at least I hope!)


On 9/5/2023 6:52 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 11:27:15 -0700, Tom Brennan wrote:


Which is a bit strange, because I would expect that every ASM program
ChatGPT looked at would have had something for that at the top and
bottom, even if it was just ENTRY/EXIT macros or similar.


Isn't ENTRY an Assembler instruction, not a macro?



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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.


True, but you certainly implied it in the notes I pasted below.

And yes, my comprehension of basic English are terrible.  My biggest 
problem is with singular and plural verbs.


On 9/5/2023 5:46 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:

I never once said it would assemble or run. I can see why you guys went into 
IT. Your comprehension of basic English are terrible.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 8:22 PM, Tom Brennan 
 wrote:

Oh that's funny!  Then what are these notes from you I found in my trash
folder?  Sounds like you were sure it would assemble and run perfectly,
and also be able to take over someone's job today.

   Why do you doubt it? Is it because you hope it doesn’t? Certainly, one
   of you assembler geniuses could test it.

   Lol, how about going to chatgpt and asking the same question. So that
   cut and paste isn’t a factor.

   What are you afraid of? That a computer can do what you do? That your
   “skills” aren’t all that impressive and can be automated away?

On 9/5/2023 4:47 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:

I never presented it as a working model.


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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

2023-09-05 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 11:27:15 -0700, Tom Brennan wrote:

>Which is a bit strange, because I would expect that every ASM program
>ChatGPT looked at would have had something for that at the top and
>bottom, even if it was just ENTRY/EXIT macros or similar.
> 
Isn't ENTRY an Assembler instruction, not a macro?

-- 
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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

Maybe the program disqualifies because of the German comments?
But: this should be no problem for ChatGPT ... translation to english ...

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 03:31 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

What I meant to say:

it would have been better, if ChatGPT had used this (my) ASSEMBLER
program from German Wikipedia ...

but apparently, it found the bad program from another source ???
Bill did not ask for a certain logic in his request; he simply asked
for some mainframe Assembler program

(not specific). So my Hello World program would qualify, too.

It would be interesting to know how ChatGPT determines which sources
are more reliable than others ...

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 03:19 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

FWIW:

ChatGPT could have used this ASSEMBLER program, which I posted some
years ago
to German Wikpedia ... this does not do the addition of two integers,
but instead it
is a simple Hello World program. In contrast to the program provided
by ChatGPT,

it has no errors (I hope) and it will work.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Hallo-Welt-Programmen/Assembler#IBM-Mainframe-ASSEMBLER

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 01:47 schrieb Bill Johnson:

I never presented it as a working model.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 7:36 PM, Bernd Oppolzer
wrote:

I am not bashing it. I am simply telling you that it has a bunch of
errors and it will not work.

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.

What I meant to say:

it would have been better, if ChatGPT had used this (my) ASSEMBLER
program from German Wikipedia ...

but apparently, it found the bad program from another source ???
Bill did not ask for a certain logic in his request; he simply asked for
some mainframe Assembler program

(not specific). So my Hello World program would qualify, too.

It would be interesting to know how ChatGPT determines which sources are
more reliable than others ...

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 03:19 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

FWIW:

ChatGPT could have used this ASSEMBLER program, which I posted some
years ago
to German Wikpedia ... this does not do the addition of two integers,
but instead it
is a simple Hello World program. In contrast to the program provided
by ChatGPT,

it has no errors (I hope) and it will work.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Hallo-Welt-Programmen/Assembler#IBM-Mainframe-ASSEMBLER

Kind regards

Bernd

Am 06.09.2023 um 01:47 schrieb Bill Johnson:

I never presented it as a working model.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023, 7:36 PM, Bernd Oppolzer
wrote:

I am not bashing it. I am simply telling you that it has a bunch of
errors and it will not work.

Am 06.09.2023 um 01:31 schrieb Bill Johnson:
I find it stunning the technology people are trying to hang onto the
past (assembler) and bashing the future. (ChatGPT) Or perhaps that’s
what aging people do.

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Re: Simple request from chatGPT to write assembler program.