Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Eike Hein]

FWIW, I moderate a ~300k subscriber subreddit on the side, and that community 
substantially migrated away from Snoonet to Discord. I see that a lot on reddit 
now.


Cheers,
Eike
-- 
Plasma, apps developer
KDE e.V. vice president, treasurer
Seoul, South Korea

Re: Ohio Linux Fest?

[Aleix Pol]

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 9:22 PM, David Narvaez
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I went to reimbursements.k.o to check out the information about the
> KDE Edu sprint, and noticed there is an event for the Ohio Linux Fest.
> Given that that is not too far from where I live, I would be willing
> to help there if needed. Who is coordinating that?

Hi David,
If you are interested, we can get you in touch with the organizers. We
could even find some budget for you to attend if needed.

We (the board) think it's an interesting event, but we were waiting
for someone in the US to represent KDE there. Now we have one, you!

Long story short: Yes, we'd be happy to have you at the Ohio Linux
Fest! Get in touch with us and we will do our best make it happen.

Aleix

Please participate in the requirements Etherpad (Was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

Just in case my other email linking to the Etherpad was overlooked by some of 
you because it was buried too deep in the thread:

Let's make this discussion productive by collecting the requirements KDE has 
for a chat / IM system to become our standard in this document:

https://notes.kde.org/p/KDE_IM_requirements

This is supposed to be the basis for our evaluation and ultimately decision, 
so if you don't contribute, you don't get to complain later ;)

Cheers,
Thomas

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Christian Loosli]

Am Mittwoch, 9. August 2017, 16:12:51 CEST schrieb Martin Klapetek:
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Christian Loosli  wrote:
> > Okay, this is more and more drifting away from being remotely productive
> > or
> > helpful, but as I provided a working solution on top level, I feel free to
> > tacke a few points that are, in my opinion, odd at best.
> > 
> > First let's tackle that mysterious group of < 20 year olds:
> > > > Is there any such organization at all?
> > > 
> > > Sure there is! Look at the tech startup scene, or the games industry.
> > > But okay, let’s say “predominantly younger than 30” to make it an easier
> > > task.
> > 
> > But KDE is not a tech startup. As people correctly wrote, KDE has a very
> > long
> > history and contributors of all age. I'd rather be that than one of the
> > many
> > tech startups with a bunch of little to no experience but fancy new chat
> > systems, to be honest.  Do we really want and need to cater these mystical
> > tweens so much?
> 
> Yes. Old contributors will slowly fade away for various
> reasons, be it life, be it lack of energy, be it other commitments.

Yes. Young talents will fade away for various reasons, be it life, having kids 
and a family or starting a career. 

> Who's going to pick all those projects up after them? I'd like
> to think that young enthusiasts with lots of energy and potential,
> exactly what those heroes starting the original KDE were.

Who is going to be there for these new talents that lack experience? 

You need both, thus catering for one group specifically is, in my opinion, 
stupid. 

> > Are they the holy grail that saves KDE and worth alienating
> > the people who are not this particular group?
> 
> It's not mutually exclusive.

This thread has a couple of very good examples of people feeling alienated due 
to it, so I'd dare to say it is a problem. 

> > Even if that is the case, to answer your question:  Yes, there are such
> > companies, plenty even. Basically a lot of companies which are exactly not
> > in
> > the small bubble that is  "tech start up", but other industries. Also
> > companies that actually have to do business with other companies, where
> > mail
> > simply still is the standard.
> > 
> > 
> > Then, on the subject of emojis, stickers or even the protocol used being
> > so
> > important:
> > 
> > Let's see what others do. Let's take our main, most famous friendly
> > competitor
> > GNOME. They even run their very own IRC network still, and actively code
> > new
> > IRC applications.
> > Mozilla? Own IRC network.
> > Reddit, quite the place for young techies and startup? Created their own
> > IRC
> > network. Hardly turning off or away people, it seems. If we fail to
> > attract
> > fresh blood, then maybe the problem is not actually "we use IRC".
> > 
> > But even if it would: to be honest, if someone decides what project they
> > want
> > to contribute due based on what chat protocol they use internally, I'm
> > personally not sure if that is a well suited candidate due to rather odd
> > priorities.
> 
> I think your view is a different angle - it's not that they would
> choose a project to contribute to based on what chat they use, but
> they would choose a project they feel most comfortable in. And yes
> day to day communication does make a big part of that comfort.

Dear god no. Most of that is actually the content, and not the protocol of 
that communication. The bickering we have on mailing lists, including people 
threatening to leave the project and year old feudes cooking up occasionally 
is way more a reason to stay away from a project than the protocols they may 
use.

> No matter how you look at it, IRC /is/ behind any other IM apps/protocols
> today. Young engineers communicate and prefer to communicate
> differently than you or me. 

I lead a team of young  (19 - 26) engineers, and I'm afraid I have to disagree 
with such blanket statements. Not to mention that freenode, _the_ very IRC 
thing, has a big amount of staffers that are between 20 and 25 and also people 
below 20. 

> I think it's absolutely crucial to understand
> them and their views/ways/whatever. Neglecting them would be a mistake.

Alienating long term contributors, switching around protocols fragmenting the 
community and not gaining new people regardless, because it was other things 
that kept them away, would be a mistake. 

> Cheers
> --
> Martin Klapetek

Kind regards, 

Christian

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Martin Klapetek]

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Christian Loosli  wrote:

> Okay, this is more and more drifting away from being remotely productive or
> helpful, but as I provided a working solution on top level, I feel free to
> tacke a few points that are, in my opinion, odd at best.
>
> First let's tackle that mysterious group of < 20 year olds:
>
> > > Is there any such organization at all?
> >
> > Sure there is! Look at the tech startup scene, or the games industry.
> > But okay, let’s say “predominantly younger than 30” to make it an easier
> > task.
>
> But KDE is not a tech startup. As people correctly wrote, KDE has a very
> long
> history and contributors of all age. I'd rather be that than one of the
> many
> tech startups with a bunch of little to no experience but fancy new chat
> systems, to be honest.  Do we really want and need to cater these mystical
> tweens so much?


Yes. Old contributors will slowly fade away for various
reasons, be it life, be it lack of energy, be it other commitments.
Who's going to pick all those projects up after them? I'd like
to think that young enthusiasts with lots of energy and potential,
exactly what those heroes starting the original KDE were.
And I think we should strive to attract younger talent that can
be in it for the long run.


> Are they the holy grail that saves KDE and worth alienating
> the people who are not this particular group?
>

It's not mutually exclusive.


> Even if that is the case, to answer your question:  Yes, there are such
> companies, plenty even. Basically a lot of companies which are exactly not
> in
> the small bubble that is  "tech start up", but other industries. Also
> companies that actually have to do business with other companies, where
> mail
> simply still is the standard.
>
>
> Then, on the subject of emojis, stickers or even the protocol used being so
> important:
>
> Let's see what others do. Let's take our main, most famous friendly
> competitor
> GNOME. They even run their very own IRC network still, and actively code
> new
> IRC applications.
> Mozilla? Own IRC network.
> Reddit, quite the place for young techies and startup? Created their own
> IRC
> network. Hardly turning off or away people, it seems. If we fail to attract
> fresh blood, then maybe the problem is not actually "we use IRC".
>
> But even if it would: to be honest, if someone decides what project they
> want
> to contribute due based on what chat protocol they use internally, I'm
> personally not sure if that is a well suited candidate due to rather odd
> priorities.
>

I think your view is a different angle - it's not that they would
choose a project to contribute to based on what chat they use, but
they would choose a project they feel most comfortable in. And yes
day to day communication does make a big part of that comfort. No
matter how you look at it, IRC /is/ behind any other IM apps/protocols
today. Young engineers communicate and prefer to communicate
differently than you or me. I think it's absolutely crucial to understand
them and their views/ways/whatever. Neglecting them would be a mistake.

Cheers
--
Martin Klapetek

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Alexander Neundorf]

On 2017 M08 9, Wed 00:19:32 CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
...
> - Easy way to share files
> A solution that puts files automatically on share.kde.org and embeds them
> from there works only if we have people willing and able to implement that
> feature into a desktop- as well as mobile client

One thing I like in the google group chat is that you can post images and you 
can do simple free-hand drawing on these images (e.g. draw an arrow pointing 
to something). I think it has also builtin functionality for screenshots.
Both combined make it easy to talk about GUI stuff.
Do other IMs support this too ? (I haven't seen this in mattermost and slack)

Alex

Ohio Linux Fest?

[David Narvaez]

Hi,

I went to reimbursements.k.o to check out the information about the
KDE Edu sprint, and noticed there is an event for the Ohio Linux Fest.
Given that that is not too far from where I live, I would be willing
to help there if needed. Who is coordinating that?

Thanks.

David E. Narvaez

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Boudewijn Rempt]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Christian Loosli wrote:

> But KDE is not a tech startup. As people correctly wrote, KDE has a very long 
> history and contributors of all age. I'd rather be that than one of the many 
> tech startups with a bunch of little to no experience but fancy new chat 
> systems, to be honest.  Do we really want and need to cater these mystical 
> tweens so much? Are they the holy grail that saves KDE and worth alienating 
> the people who are not this particular group? 

Indeed.

> Let's see what others do. Let's take our main, most famous friendly 
> competitor 
> GNOME. They even run their very own IRC network still, and actively code new 
> IRC applications. 
> Mozilla? Own IRC network. 
> Reddit, quite the place for young techies and startup? Created their own IRC 
> network. Hardly turning off or away people, it seems. If we fail to attract 
> fresh blood, then maybe the problem is not actually "we use IRC". 

Actually... That is a problem, at least for me, personally. Github is a place 
where everything gets mashed down to faceless anonymity. If our code would move
to Github we would lose our sense of community for ever. But... On Freenode, 
in the same application, the same mental space, I can be around in kde, kde on 
windows, krita, but also inkscape and scribus and vc and qt and some other 
things
where I might just lurk and learn, or sometimes be useful.

I've never lurked on gimp's irc channel, because it's on another network, and I
would feel like I were intruding. It would be better if they were on freenode 
as well.

The biggest problem I face on #krita isn't a lack of people joining, but a 
surfeit of people thinking it's something like a one-on-one scripted company
support chat. Having multiple conversations going on at the same time is very
mind-boggling for some people. But that's not in any of the lists of problems
I've seen in this discussion.

> 
> But even if it would: to be honest, if someone decides what project they want 
> to contribute due based on what chat protocol they use internally, I'm 
> personally not sure if that is a well suited candidate due to rather odd 
> priorities.

AOL

-- 
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.krita.org, http://www.valdyas.org

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Christian Loosli]

Okay, this is more and more drifting away from being remotely productive or 
helpful, but as I provided a working solution on top level, I feel free to 
tacke a few points that are, in my opinion, odd at best. 

First let's tackle that mysterious group of < 20 year olds: 

> > Is there any such organization at all?
> 
> Sure there is! Look at the tech startup scene, or the games industry.
> But okay, let’s say “predominantly younger than 30” to make it an easier
> task.

But KDE is not a tech startup. As people correctly wrote, KDE has a very long 
history and contributors of all age. I'd rather be that than one of the many 
tech startups with a bunch of little to no experience but fancy new chat 
systems, to be honest.  Do we really want and need to cater these mystical 
tweens so much? Are they the holy grail that saves KDE and worth alienating 
the people who are not this particular group? 

Even if that is the case, to answer your question:  Yes, there are such 
companies, plenty even. Basically a lot of companies which are exactly not in 
the small bubble that is  "tech start up", but other industries. Also 
companies that actually have to do business with other companies, where mail 
simply still is the standard. 


Then, on the subject of emojis, stickers or even the protocol used being so 
important: 

Let's see what others do. Let's take our main, most famous friendly competitor 
GNOME. They even run their very own IRC network still, and actively code new 
IRC applications. 
Mozilla? Own IRC network. 
Reddit, quite the place for young techies and startup? Created their own IRC 
network. Hardly turning off or away people, it seems. If we fail to attract 
fresh blood, then maybe the problem is not actually "we use IRC". 

But even if it would: to be honest, if someone decides what project they want 
to contribute due based on what chat protocol they use internally, I'm 
personally not sure if that is a well suited candidate due to rather odd 
priorities.

Last but not least: if IRC really is so much of an issue, which I doubt: there 
are solutions readily available (Tg and Matrix bridge) or available in the 
future (Rocket bridge) which do resolve the problem whilst still maintaining 
compatibility for people who prefer what worked for 20 years and still works. 
So the reasons to continue with a replacement I can see are either "We want to 
get rid of the other one completely and enforce this one" or "we want it NOW", 
both of which I heavily have to disagree with for various reasons already 
mentioned. 

TL;DR: no. 

Kind regards, 

Christian 

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Martin Klapetek]

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer 
wrote:

>
> > On 09 Aug 2017, at 20:00, Boudewijn Rempt  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> >
> >> So unless someone can give me an example of an organization younger
> than 10
> >> years, with predominantly people younger than 25,
> >
> > Is there any such organization at all?
> >
>
> Sure there is! Look at the tech startup scene, or the games industry.
> But okay, let’s say “predominantly younger than 30” to make it an easier
> task.
>

Can confirm. I work in a tech startup less than 10 years
old with people predominantly younger than 30. We use
emails internally only for announcements (max 2 per week).
For everything else we use instant messaging. In fact, we
have all the tooling hooked up to the IM, so even new code
review or failed CI pings you on the IM. Heck, we even hooked
the main door lock to the IM, so you can open doors with
a simple message (has proper auth and everything).

>From seeing other startups in the neighbourhood, I can
tell you that all of those I've seen are like that - using whatever
is the latest hip IM client because startups have to be "cool".
And that raised a generation of engineers that take it for granted
that orgs they'd be potentially interested in use some 21st
century chat stack (but not only, GitHub is another great example).
If they don't, they're automatically less interested.

I agree with Thomas. If this is the kind of talent we'd like to
attract, we need evolve.

Cheers
--
Martin Klapetek

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Boudewijn Rempt]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:

> 
> > On 09 Aug 2017, at 20:00, Boudewijn Rempt  wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > 
> >> So unless someone can give me an example of an organization younger than 
> >> 10 
> >> years, with predominantly people younger than 25, 
> > 
> > Is there any such organization at all?
> > 
> 
> Sure there is! Look at the tech startup scene, or the games industry. 
> But okay, let’s say “predominantly younger than 30” to make it an easier task.

Oh, you're talking about companies, not organizations.

-- 
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.krita.org, http://www.valdyas.org

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Boudewijn Rempt]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Albert Astals Cid wrote:

> You can't expect me to read a 200 messages backlog in 20 channels just in 
> case 
> something important was said while i was away. 

Well, I keep running irssi in a screen session because... I feel I have to, but
I am getting better at not replying to things that happened to go bump in the
nigh.,

> Telegram messages end up in my phone, and show a notification, so i have to 
> read it because my mind wants my task bar without notifications, but once 
> read 
> the "you have to read this" is gone, so if it's something important i need to 
> do later i will forget and won't get done.

Same here!

> And to top that off there's no way to "log off from channels" like on IRC 
> (where i am on some channels during work day and some others on non work 
> day),  
> so it creates the false impression that i'm "always avaiable" when i'm not 
> and 
> that together with the "no way to mark messages as unread if they are 
> important" makes it really bad for serious use.

Oh yes, indeed!
-- 
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.krita.org, http://www.valdyas.org

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Boudewijn Rempt]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:

> So unless someone can give me an example of an organization younger than 10 
> years, with predominantly people younger than 25, 

Is there any such organization at all?

> which uses email as their 
> main format of text communication

Even without this rider.

> , I maintain my statement. 

-- 
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.krita.org, http://www.valdyas.org

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Albert Astals Cid]

El dimecres, 9 d’agost de 2017, a les 9:45:13 CEST, Thomas Pfeiffer va 
escriure:
> On Dienstag, 8. August 2017 23:52:40 CEST Christian Loosli wrote:
> > > Looking at #kde-devel just now it says:
> > > <-- swati_27 (uid130066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-abaollxcgicrxgwg)
> > > has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
> > > <-- nowrep (~david@kde/developer/drosca) has quit (Quit: Konversation
> > > terminated!)
> > > <-- stikonas (~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas) has quit (Quit:
> > > Konversation terminated!)
> > > <-- soee_ (~s...@bmi112.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has quit (Quit:
> > > Konversation terminated!)
> > > --> soee (~s...@bmi112.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #kde-devel
> > > 
> > > Show that to most people and they'll just not want to know what it means
> > 
> > Good thing every single client coming to mind has a feature to hide these,
> > including the official KDE client Konversation.
> > 
> > http://wiki.xkcd.com/irc/hide_join_part_messages
> > 
> > I'm rather sure that most other protocols, at least Telegram most
> > certainly
> > does, do also show when someone joined or parted a group, mind.
> > The part they might hide is the  nick!ident@host part. This is client
> > dependent, some do and quite a lot of them can hide it. So I wouldn't
> > really recommend switching to a completely different protocol due to
> > "shows additional info when someone joins or leaves the group".
> 
> The bigger issue seen in what Jonathan pasted isn't that IRC clients show
> when people join or leave a group. The issue is that it shows when people
> close their IRC client. And the problem is not that it shows them, but that
> this is _relevant_ because it means they can't follow the conversation
> anymore.

This is a feature and not a bug.

Instant messanging is for instant communication, if i'm not there i don't care 
what happened, important things should be sent by email or other actually 
archiveable format.

You can't expect me to read a 200 messages backlog in 20 channels just in case 
something important was said while i was away. 

Also one of the reasons of why i hate to use Telegram for anything that 
"actually matters" is this "always on" feature.

Telegram messages end up in my phone, and show a notification, so i have to 
read it because my mind wants my task bar without notifications, but once read 
the "you have to read this" is gone, so if it's something important i need to 
do later i will forget and won't get done.

And to top that off there's no way to "log off from channels" like on IRC 
(where i am on some channels during work day and some others on non work day),  
so it creates the false impression that i'm "always avaiable" when i'm not and 
that together with the "no way to mark messages as unread if they are 
important" makes it really bad for serious use.

Cheers,
  Albert

> 
> That's not the case for modern protocols where people only stop seeing the
> conversation if they actively leave the group (which is whey they do show
> that, but it happens far less often than people quitting their IRC client).
> 
> And see my requirements email for my reply to "But we have a ZNC instance".

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Albert Astals Cid]

El dimecres, 9 d’agost de 2017, a les 9:36:42 CEST, Thomas Pfeiffer va 
escriure:
> On Mittwoch, 9. August 2017 01:59:00 CEST Christian Loosli wrote:
> > PS: on the importance of emojis and (animated) stickers: I can see why
> > people want them for friends and family, I love the sticker packs I have
> > on
> > Telegram. But why it is mandatory in a somewhat more professional
> > environment is a bit beyond me, people also still use e-mail despite it
> > neither supporting stickers nor emojis  (Well, unless html mails, but
> > thank
> > god that at least there we agree that it is an abomination)
> 
> It's just that young people do _not_ use email unless absolutely forced to.
> There is a reason why it can take days until someone replies to an email on
> the VDG mailing list, while the various Telegram groups the VDG is in are
> buzzing with activity.
> Or why my coworkers (professional environment, but a gaming company so
> predominantly people younger than me) hardly ever send an email but do
> everything on Slack.
> 
> Emoji certainly are not the only reason for that, but they are an important
> contributor to making communication on Telegram or Slack feel more natural
> than fun than email. Email is not fun at all.
> 
> So unless someone can give me an example of an organization younger than 10
> years, with predominantly people younger than 25, which uses email as their
> main format of text communication, I maintain my statement.

Remember, while trying to cater for those mythical young people that are not 
contributing just because we use IRC, we should try to not scare away those 
actual contributors that actually like using IRC.

Cheers,
  Albert

KDE at Qt World Summit 2017 - let's make it the best yet!

[Scarlett Clark]

Sign me up for booth help, I will be in Berlin for BS meeting.
Scarlett

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

> On 09 Aug 2017, at 16:19, Eike Hein  wrote:
> 
> On August 9, 2017 4:28:49 PM GMT+09:00, Thomas Pfeiffer 
>  wrote:
>> On Mittwoch, 9. August 2017 02:14:44 CEST Jonathan Frederickson wrote:
>>> On 08/08/2017 06:19 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
 - Support for a decent set of Emoji (not just the ones you can
>> create
 using
 ASCII chars).
 Using Unicode to display them is probably okay, as long as users
>> can
 choose
 them from a menu in the client instead of having to paste them from
 KCharSelect.
 This, too, might sound like nice-to-have for many, but not having
>> them
 would cut us off from the younger generation. Yes, they use them
>> even in
 a "professional context". Believe me, I'm seeing it in action every
>> day
 at work.
>>> I'm not sure custom emoji should be a requirement. That pretty
>> heavily
>>> limits your options, and even some of the major chat platforms
>>> (WhatsApp, iMessage, Hangouts) don't support this.
>> 
>> That's why I wrote that Unicode is okay. Unicode now has quite a range
>> of 
>> emoji and that set is growing steadily, so that's fine. Not optimal
>> because 
>> they're black and white, but fine. 
>> Just not only ASCII ones.
>> 
>> Custom emoji are nice, but definitely not a must.
> 
> This is technically completely wrong - nothing prevents Unicode emoji from 
> being colored, there are multiple color font technologies in use and Linux 
> toolkits support some of them.
> 
> A "Unicode emoji" is just a number encoded to a bit sequence. How it's 
> displayed once found is up to the client. Unicode is just how you agree on 
> exchanging and storing the character.
> 
Actually I realized this myself today when I actually looked at examples of 
Unicode emojis in some standard fonts and saw that yes, those were colored.

Okay cool then Unicode it is :)

Re: github, phabricator: a new threadZ

[Eike Hein]

On August 9, 2017 9:10:15 PM GMT+09:00, Jos van den Oever 
 wrote:
>Op woensdag 9 augustus 2017 13:50:46 CEST schreef Harald Sitter:
>> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Boudewijn Rempt 
>wrote:
>> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
>> >> This is a new thread entirely, but incidentally also something we
>> >> should also think about. Why many KDE developers choose github
>instead
>> >> of scratch KDE repositories to start new software, where it could
>> >> happily be hosted within KDE infrastructure?
>> > 
>> > Our infra doesn't offer scratch repos anymore, does it?
>> 
>> It does, they were slated for removal with the transition to phab,
>> since that hasn't happend yet though I assume scratch repos are still
>> a thing. Albeit, a thing that is meant to be removed with (currently)
>> no replacement planned which is why for example I do not create any
>> new ones and instead use github. Although TBH the UX of creating a
>> scratch has also left me wanting as it entails me googling how to
>> setup a scratch every single time.
>
>Scatch repos are awesome! No need to open a browser, just push to a
>url. I was 
>very happy when I discovered KDE infra had such a lovely feature.
>
>Cheers,
>Jos

Yeah, I use them all the time, too.

Cheers,
Eike
-- 
Plasma, apps developer
KDE e.V. vice president, treasurer
Seoul, South Korea

Re: github, phabricator: a new threadZ

[Jos van den Oever]

Op woensdag 9 augustus 2017 13:50:46 CEST schreef Harald Sitter:
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Boudewijn Rempt  wrote:
> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
> >> This is a new thread entirely, but incidentally also something we
> >> should also think about. Why many KDE developers choose github instead
> >> of scratch KDE repositories to start new software, where it could
> >> happily be hosted within KDE infrastructure?
> > 
> > Our infra doesn't offer scratch repos anymore, does it?
> 
> It does, they were slated for removal with the transition to phab,
> since that hasn't happend yet though I assume scratch repos are still
> a thing. Albeit, a thing that is meant to be removed with (currently)
> no replacement planned which is why for example I do not create any
> new ones and instead use github. Although TBH the UX of creating a
> scratch has also left me wanting as it entails me googling how to
> setup a scratch every single time.

Scatch repos are awesome! No need to open a browser, just push to a url. I was 
very happy when I discovered KDE infra had such a lovely feature.

Cheers,
Jos


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Re: github, phabricator: a new threadZ

[Harald Sitter]

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Boudewijn Rempt  wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Riccardo Iaconelli wrote:
>
>> This is a new thread entirely, but incidentally also something we
>> should also think about. Why many KDE developers choose github instead
>> of scratch KDE repositories to start new software, where it could
>> happily be hosted within KDE infrastructure?
>
> Our infra doesn't offer scratch repos anymore, does it?

It does, they were slated for removal with the transition to phab,
since that hasn't happend yet though I assume scratch repos are still
a thing. Albeit, a thing that is meant to be removed with (currently)
no replacement planned which is why for example I do not create any
new ones and instead use github. Although TBH the UX of creating a
scratch has also left me wanting as it entails me googling how to
setup a scratch every single time.

HS

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Ben Cooksley]

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 10:06 PM, Elvis Angelaccio
 wrote:
> On mercoledì 9 agosto 2017 11:47:24 CEST, David Edmundson wrote:
>>>
>>> We should probably also ask the sysadmin team whether they would be
>>> willing to maintain our own chat server.
>>
>>
>> That's "maintain a third chat server".
>>
>> They maintain both kdetalk (jabber) and Conpherence (phabricator) already.
>
>
> Right. Though I think Conpherence is provided by phabricator "for free" (no
> additional maintainance required).

The only "additional" maintenance as it were is the Phabricator
notifications server component Aphlict, which you need to run anyway
to be notified of changes to pages by others (it's what allows the
Page has changed, please reload messages)

So yes, it's maintenance free.

>
>>
>> David
>>
>

Cheers,
Ben

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Christian Loosli]

Hi, 

Yup, I am aware, I already did spread that freenode internally a couple of 
weeks ago (when I saw the first post on planet KDE), thanks. 

Our current issue is more the mix of authentication systems and to use 
something like SAML or the likes to integrate them, which, as far as I am 
aware, is not a point resolved in brooklyn  (minor sidenote: that name is 
already taken by the apache foundation). 

I'm sure we'd get in touch with them once we are in a stage where we tackle 
the problems brooklyn tackles, unfortunately as an already existing network we 
have a couple of additional things to tackle first. 

Thanks for the info, kind regards, 

Christian 

Am Mittwoch, 9. August 2017, 09:49:27 CEST schrieb Cristian Baldi:
> We have a GSoC student working on a RocketChat<~>Telegram<~>Irc bridge
> which as of now has support for files, images, video messages and so on.
> Take a look here
> http://rivadavide.blogspot.com/2017/08/brooklyn-02-released-ready-for.html
> .  We are using it at WikiToLearn and it is working fine.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017, 11:28 Christian Loosli  wrote:
> > Post Scriptum, as I discussed this and learned that what I hinted at in
> > the -
> > cafe channel yesterday is public information:
> > 
> > We (freenode) are looking into support (not moving to, mind) for rocket.
> > Some details can be found here:  https://www.facebook.com/eximious/posts/
> > 
> > 10155436766365761?comment_id=10155438680590761_tracking=%7B%22tn%2
> > 2%3A %22R3%22%7D
> >  > 5438680590761_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R3%22%7D>
> > 
> > (sorry for facebook link, quote for those who rather not:
> > "We (freenode) have had quite a few conversations with projects that
> > struggle
> > with Slack -- they use it but are finding it difficult, partly because it
> > is
> > proprietary and doesn't align too well with their values and partly
> > because it
> > is resulting in a great deal of community fragmentation. We're currently
> > looking at implementing rocket.chat support to allow projects such as
> > those to
> > map their own rocket.chat instances to their channel namespace on freenode
> > in
> > a bid to reduce the community fragmentation they experience. Totally
> > hoping
> > that it will solve those issues for them!")
> > 
> > which might be a solution that pleases both people who want to use Rocket
> > and
> > people who want to not abandon other more or less well used protocols.
> > 
> > Bonus points: due to the Matrix and Telegram bridge we already have, if we
> > manage to properly integrate Rocket, one can probably use either of the
> > four
> > and be happy. Obviously with some loss of features, as e.g. protocol a
> > might
> > not support something of protocol b. How well this will be implemented
> > depends
> > on the bridge, e.g. files or stickers could be integrated via links iff
> > someone
> > codes that.
> > 
> > Unfortunately IRC would still not get support for animated stickers and
> > custom
> > pile of poop emojis, sorry to crush hopes there.
> > 
> > Sorry for not mentioning this earlier, I wasn't sure at this very early
> > stage
> > whether it is public or not.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Christian

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Cristian Baldi]

We have a GSoC student working on a RocketChat<~>Telegram<~>Irc bridge
which as of now has support for files, images, video messages and so on.
Take a look here
http://rivadavide.blogspot.com/2017/08/brooklyn-02-released-ready-for.html
.  We are using it at WikiToLearn and it is working fine.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017, 11:28 Christian Loosli  wrote:

> Post Scriptum, as I discussed this and learned that what I hinted at in
> the -
> cafe channel yesterday is public information:
>
> We (freenode) are looking into support (not moving to, mind) for rocket.
> Some details can be found here:  https://www.facebook.com/eximious/posts/
>
> 10155436766365761?comment_id=10155438680590761_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A
> %22R3%22%7D
> 
>
> (sorry for facebook link, quote for those who rather not:
> "We (freenode) have had quite a few conversations with projects that
> struggle
> with Slack -- they use it but are finding it difficult, partly because it
> is
> proprietary and doesn't align too well with their values and partly
> because it
> is resulting in a great deal of community fragmentation. We're currently
> looking at implementing rocket.chat support to allow projects such as
> those to
> map their own rocket.chat instances to their channel namespace on freenode
> in
> a bid to reduce the community fragmentation they experience. Totally hoping
> that it will solve those issues for them!")
>
> which might be a solution that pleases both people who want to use Rocket
> and
> people who want to not abandon other more or less well used protocols.
>
> Bonus points: due to the Matrix and Telegram bridge we already have, if we
> manage to properly integrate Rocket, one can probably use either of the
> four
> and be happy. Obviously with some loss of features, as e.g. protocol a
> might
> not support something of protocol b. How well this will be implemented
> depends
> on the bridge, e.g. files or stickers could be integrated via links iff
> someone
> codes that.
>
> Unfortunately IRC would still not get support for animated stickers and
> custom
> pile of poop emojis, sorry to crush hopes there.
>
> Sorry for not mentioning this earlier, I wasn't sure at this very early
> stage
> whether it is public or not.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christian
>
-- 

Cristian Baldi

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[David Edmundson]

>We should probably also ask the sysadmin team whether they would be
willing to maintain our own chat server.

That's "maintain a third chat server".

They maintain both kdetalk (jabber) and Conpherence (phabricator) already.

David

Re: KDE at Qt World Summit 2017 - let's make it the best yet!

[Bhushan Shah]

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:48 PM, Eike Hein  wrote:
> - Helpers! Who wants to be an awesome person and go to QtWS and rep
>   KDE there? Who can make it to Berlin in the timeframe? (I know
>   there's a KDE Edu sprint and a Blue Systems dev sprint going on,
>   so no excuses! :P)
>
>   Everyone interested and willing to commit please speak up, or get
>   in touch with me directly. You will be able to express a pre-
>   ference for booth and talk chairing duty which we'll try to
>   respect when drawing up the duty roster. You'll get lots of karma
>   bonus points if you're willing to help with booth setup and tear
>   down.

I would like to join, I'll be able to help with booth duties (demo,
and possibly teardown, I won't arrive in Berlin that early to help
with initial setup)

>
>   There will be a limit to how many people we can send, so please
>   don't be upset if we can't bring you along in the end. But please
>   do try!
>
>   If travel/accomodation expenses would be the only thing keeping
>   you, get in touch and we can look into that.
>
> - Figure out what we want to show at the booth this year. Who wants
>   to make cool demo loops or slides?

/me want to help with that, possibly I will make demo loop for plasma mobile

>
> - Make promo materials. We'll need to review and update our posters
>   (if anyone has the 2015/2016 posters, please link them in reply)
>   and flyers. And do it early enough so we can get them refined and
>   printed in time. Jens Reuterberg has promised to help make things
>   look great!
>
>
> Cheers,
> Eike



-- 
Bhushan Shah
http://blog.bshah.in
IRC Nick : bshah on Freenode
GPG key fingerprint : 0AAC 775B B643 7A8D 9AF7 A3AC FE07 8411 7FBC E11D

Re: KDE at Qt World Summit 2017 - let's make it the best yet!

[Boudewijn Rempt]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Eike Hein wrote:

>   Everyone interested and willing to commit please speak up, or get
>   in touch with me directly. You will be able to express a pre-
>   ference for booth and talk chairing duty which we'll try to
>   respect when drawing up the duty roster. You'll get lots of karma
>   bonus points if you're willing to help with booth setup and tear
>   down.

I'd like to join again -- and I'm perfectly fine with doing booth setup,
booth duty and booth teardown again. It was great fun last time I attended.

-- 
Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.krita.org, http://www.valdyas.org

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Marco Martin]

On Wednesday 09 August 2017 00:19:32 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:

> - FOSS clients or at least API available for desktop as well as mobile
> These clients must
>  - have a UI that someone who is < 20 years old and cares about the looks of
> a UI would use (or if those don't exist, we need to have people willing and
> able to write them before switching)

..and that someone that is >20 would use as well, as many times to have pretty 
ui is just chosen the easy route of cutting away useful features

> Nice-to-haves:
> 
> - Bridge to IRC
> For the transitional period or for people who just refuse to change their
> habits

this is absolutely a must, our current community on all our irc channels is 
our biggest asset, and i see in this thread is treated more or less like a 
nuisance (like Eike said, there would have not been 20 years of KDE without 
it) i would even say a complete bridge to freenode already there is a must.

-- 
Marco Martin

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Christian Loosli]

Post Scriptum, as I discussed this and learned that what I hinted at in the -
cafe channel yesterday is public information:

We (freenode) are looking into support (not moving to, mind) for rocket. 
Some details can be found here:  https://www.facebook.com/eximious/posts/
10155436766365761?comment_id=10155438680590761_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A
%22R3%22%7D  

(sorry for facebook link, quote for those who rather not:
"We (freenode) have had quite a few conversations with projects that struggle 
with Slack -- they use it but are finding it difficult, partly because it is 
proprietary and doesn't align too well with their values and partly because it 
is resulting in a great deal of community fragmentation. We're currently 
looking at implementing rocket.chat support to allow projects such as those to 
map their own rocket.chat instances to their channel namespace on freenode in 
a bid to reduce the community fragmentation they experience. Totally hoping 
that it will solve those issues for them!")

which might be a solution that pleases both people who want to use Rocket and 
people who want to not abandon other more or less well used protocols. 

Bonus points: due to the Matrix and Telegram bridge we already have, if we 
manage to properly integrate Rocket, one can probably use either of the four 
and be happy. Obviously with some loss of features, as e.g. protocol a might 
not support something of protocol b. How well this will be implemented depends 
on the bridge, e.g. files or stickers could be integrated via links iff someone 
codes that. 

Unfortunately IRC would still not get support for animated stickers and custom 
pile of poop emojis, sorry to crush hopes there. 

Sorry for not mentioning this earlier, I wasn't sure at this very early stage 
whether it is public or not.

Regards, 

Christian

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

> On 09 Aug 2017, at 09:57, Adriaan de Groot  wrote:
> 
> Can we please keep this thread limited to collecting-requirements, and 
> therefore arguing over which requirements are required or what their weight 
> is? That, rather than re-hashing the discussion elsewhere on which platform 
> with which sub- and superset of features is popular in which location.

You are right, inviting people to challenge my proposals right away wasn’t such 
a good idea in hindsight.

Furthermore, this sub-thread has reminded me again that while email is great 
for having permanently and publicly archived discussions, it is terrible for 
collecting information (any chat protocol would be equally terrible for that, 
of course) because contributions by different people tend to become spread over 
multiple emails.

So to fix this as well as to keep information gathering separate from 
discussion, let’s do the former in a format that makes more sense for it:

https://notes.kde.org/p/KDE_IM_requirements

Once we’ve agreed on a list (if we ever do), it could make sense to move that 
to the Community wiki for searchability and everything, but for brainstorming 
Etherpad usually works better.

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Christian Loosli]

Am Dienstag, 8. August 2017, 20:05:16 CEST schrieb Jonathan Frederickson:
> Matrix has all of these, with the exception of perhaps "Multi-identity"
> and "Anonymous." (But it's HTTP, so you can tunnel it over Tor, there's
> no real name requirement as it's an open federated protocol, and you can
> create multiple accounts and use them for different purposes if you want.)

Matrix gets these via the IRC bridge if needed, since we (freenode) do support 
Tor more or less natively, and obviously IRC also supports multi-identity. 
 
> (By the way, I'm not affiliated with the Matrix project at all - I'm an
> enthusiastic user, and I've contributed Matrix support to a chatbot, but
> that's it!)

I'm fine with Matrix, we (freenode) are currently collaborating with them in 
order to fix the various broken things in their bridge, once that is done, I'd 
say it's a decent thing. Personally I wouldn't use it, but the good thing is: 
I don't have to, it is bridged already. 

Kind regards, 

Christian

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Agustin Benito (toscalix)]

Hi,

I have opened right now konversation with 25 channels, 10 from them
corporate channels and many others to talk to developers from
different projects, KDE telepathy for my Google and facebook contacts,
Telegram for my KDE and openSUSE support questions since users seem to
be moving there and I use it in my mobile, Slack for a couple of
projects...  The picture in my mobile is not a better one, by the way.

The problem for me is not which one to use but how can I reduce the
number of apps I use right now. We live in an heterogeneous world.
What can we do about it?

KDE can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Selecting one
option and moving everybody there seems to me like moving towards
being part of the problem. I would move towards creating a solution
compatible with most of the current solutions so by using KDE you do
not need to have 25 chat-like apps opened (Integration is a feature)
and let each group decide which app is better for them.


Saludos

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[KDE]

Hi!

> On 9. Aug 2017, at 10:08, Adriaan de Groot  > wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday 09 August 2017 09:45:13 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
>> That's not the case for modern protocols where people only stop seeing the 
>> conversation if they actively leave the group (which is whey they do show 
>> that, but it happens far less often than people quitting their IRC client).
>> 
>> And see my requirements email for my reply to "But we have a ZNC instance". 
> 
> Can you add this to the collecting-requirements thread?
> 
> - non ephemeral
> - searchable
> - stored offline for later retrieval

At the “goal post BOF” during Akademy I proposed building a real free software, 
simply working modern chat solution as a possible milestone project. I would 
like to add to the requirements:
based on open standards (e.g., Unicode emojis but no custom ones)
coherent chat experience (e.g., a user sees the same messages in channels and 
chats no matter which of the multiple devices she connects from and when)

I am pretty sure that no solution exists that fits the bill 100%. This may be 
an opportunity for the KDE community to shine and build something that is not 
open core (like Mattermost) or fake-free (like Telegram) and actually 
interoperable. And it needs a great UX, which is exactly our mission. 

Mirko.
-- 
Mirko Boehm | mi...@kde.org  | KDE e.V.
FSFE Fellowship Representative, FSFE Team Germany
Qt Certified Specialist and Trainer
Request a meeting: https://doodle.com/mirkoboehm 

Re: KDE at Qt World Summit 2017 - let's make it the best yet!

[Helio Chissini de Castro]

I'll be there as well and up to help.

( Already sent with wrong email :-P )

On 8 August 2017 at 23:21, Sune Vuorela  wrote:

> On 2017-08-08, Eike Hein  wrote:
> > Berlin, Germany will once again host a Qt World Summit this year, on
> > October 10th through 12th. This follows on from the Qt Contributor
> > Summit on October 9th and 10th.
> >
> > I've stepped up to coordinate KDE's presence at QtWS this year. Sune,
> > who has done it in recent years, is a little to busy this year and
> > will be number #2.
>
> I'm (obviously) interested.
>
> /Sune
>
>

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Adriaan de Groot]

On Wednesday 09 August 2017 09:45:13 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> That's not the case for modern protocols where people only stop seeing the 
> conversation if they actively leave the group (which is whey they do show 
> that, but it happens far less often than people quitting their IRC client).
> 
> And see my requirements email for my reply to "But we have a ZNC instance". 

Can you add this to the collecting-requirements thread?

 - non ephemeral
 - searchable
 - stored offline for later retrieval

You're making a really strong case for HTML email (it can contain pictures!).

[ade]

PS. Not sure whether "/s" u'1F644' or 
http://telegramhub.net/sarcastic-polar-bear/ is the right mechanism to indicate 
the intended emotional sub-not-text.

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Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Mittwoch, 9. August 2017 09:36:42 CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 9. August 2017 01:59:00 CEST Christian Loosli wrote:
> > PS: on the importance of emojis and (animated) stickers: I can see why
> > people want them for friends and family, I love the sticker packs I have
> > on
> > Telegram. But why it is mandatory in a somewhat more professional
> > environment is a bit beyond me, people also still use e-mail despite it
> > neither supporting stickers nor emojis  (Well, unless html mails, but
> > thank
> > god that at least there we agree that it is an abomination)
> 
> It's just that young people do _not_ use email unless absolutely forced to.
> There is a reason why it can take days until someone replies to an email on
> the VDG mailing list, while the various Telegram groups the VDG is in are
> buzzing with activity.
> Or why my coworkers (professional environment, but a gaming company so
> predominantly people younger than me) hardly ever send an email but do
> everything on Slack.
> 
> Emoji certainly are not the only reason for that, but they are an important
> contributor to making communication on Telegram or Slack feel more natural
> than fun than email. Email is not fun at all.

I meant ore natural _and_ fun than email, of course. And here we have another 
thing  feature I sorely miss whenever I have to use one of the old 
communication protocols: The ability to edit my messages.

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Adriaan de Groot]

Can we please keep this thread limited to collecting-requirements, and 
therefore arguing over which requirements are required or what their weight 
is? That, rather than re-hashing the discussion elsewhere on which platform 
with which sub- and superset of features is popular in which location.


Top-posting, because this is email and I can annoy people by doing so.
GPG-signing, because this is email and I can do so.
Taking the time to write a longer response, because this is email and I can do 
so(*).

On Wednesday 09 August 2017 09:36:42 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 9. August 2017 01:59:00 CEST Christian Loosli wrote:
> > PS: on the importance of emojis and (animated) stickers: I can see why
> > people want them for friends and family, I love the sticker packs I have

IM is communication, and communication is culture. Let's not forget that. Paul 
Adams and I once experimented with the "dude" communication protocol, which 
contains only one word, "dude", and a vast range of intonations, tone-
lengthenings, and eye-rolls. It was a very effective and largely encrypted 
real-time, face-to-face, communications mechanism. Hard to teach to others, 
though.

Culture, though, is learned. And culture is often local. As Christian and 
Thomas's messages express, the locality matters; the population matters. So 
before we dive into "this is a useless feature for me", let's inventory. 
Collect requirements. Then we can also describe, later, which populations or 
cultures have that specific requirement.

> It's just that young people do _not_ use email unless absolutely forced to.

Driving this kind of stake in the sand isn't helping the discussion. Also, we 
are not talking about email -- which is a non-ephemeral, searchable, 
permanently archivable, signable, threadable communications mechanism -- right 
now.

And you know what? Even using email is a cultural thing; culture is all about 
forcing people to do things. I forced my kids to eat with knife and fork, 
because that's my culture. I forced them to stop pooping their pants. I forced 
them to look at me (and not their phone) when talking to me. They forced me to 
accept that some music, created in the 1980's, does not suck. Culture can 
develop and change, too.

> There is a reason why it can take days until someone replies to an email on
> the VDG mailing list, while the various Telegram groups the VDG is in are
> buzzing with activity.

So? Again: collect requirements. Then talk about which requirements are 
inspired by what kind of community / culture / population.

[ade]


(*) But email is not an IM / chat functionality, so it is expected to have 
totally different characteristics from an IM client.

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Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Dienstag, 8. August 2017 23:52:40 CEST Christian Loosli wrote:

> > Looking at #kde-devel just now it says:
> > <-- swati_27 (uid130066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-abaollxcgicrxgwg)
> > has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
> > <-- nowrep (~david@kde/developer/drosca) has quit (Quit: Konversation
> > terminated!)
> > <-- stikonas (~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas) has quit (Quit:
> > Konversation terminated!)
> > <-- soee_ (~s...@bmi112.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has quit (Quit:
> > Konversation terminated!)
> > --> soee (~s...@bmi112.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #kde-devel
> > 
> > Show that to most people and they'll just not want to know what it means
> 
> Good thing every single client coming to mind has a feature to hide these,
> including the official KDE client Konversation.
> 
> http://wiki.xkcd.com/irc/hide_join_part_messages
> 
> I'm rather sure that most other protocols, at least Telegram most certainly
> does, do also show when someone joined or parted a group, mind.
> The part they might hide is the  nick!ident@host part. This is client
> dependent, some do and quite a lot of them can hide it. So I wouldn't really
> recommend switching to a completely different protocol due to "shows
> additional info when someone joins or leaves the group".

The bigger issue seen in what Jonathan pasted isn't that IRC clients show when 
people join or leave a group. The issue is that it shows when people close 
their IRC client. And the problem is not that it shows them, but that this is 
_relevant_ because it means they can't follow the conversation anymore.

That's not the case for modern protocols where people only stop seeing the 
conversation if they actively leave the group (which is whey they do show 
that, but it happens far less often than people quitting their IRC client).

And see my requirements email for my reply to "But we have a ZNC instance". 

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Mittwoch, 9. August 2017 01:59:00 CEST Christian Loosli wrote:

> PS: on the importance of emojis and (animated) stickers: I can see why
> people want them for friends and family, I love the sticker packs I have on
> Telegram. But why it is mandatory in a somewhat more professional
> environment is a bit beyond me, people also still use e-mail despite it
> neither supporting stickers nor emojis  (Well, unless html mails, but thank
> god that at least there we agree that it is an abomination)

It's just that young people do _not_ use email unless absolutely forced to. 
There is a reason why it can take days until someone replies to an email on 
the VDG mailing list, while the various Telegram groups the VDG is in are 
buzzing with activity.
Or why my coworkers (professional environment, but a gaming company so 
predominantly people younger than me) hardly ever send an email but do 
everything on Slack.

Emoji certainly are not the only reason for that, but they are an important 
contributor to making communication on Telegram or Slack feel more natural 
than fun than email. Email is not fun at all.

So unless someone can give me an example of an organization younger than 10 
years, with predominantly people younger than 25, which uses email as their 
main format of text communication, I maintain my statement. 

Re: Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Mittwoch, 9. August 2017 02:14:44 CEST Jonathan Frederickson wrote:
> On 08/08/2017 06:19 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > - Support for a decent set of Emoji (not just the ones you can create
> > using
> > ASCII chars).
> > Using Unicode to display them is probably okay, as long as users can
> > choose
> > them from a menu in the client instead of having to paste them from
> > KCharSelect.
> > This, too, might sound like nice-to-have for many, but not having them
> > would cut us off from the younger generation. Yes, they use them even in
> > a "professional context". Believe me, I'm seeing it in action every day
> > at work.
> I'm not sure custom emoji should be a requirement. That pretty heavily
> limits your options, and even some of the major chat platforms
> (WhatsApp, iMessage, Hangouts) don't support this.

That's why I wrote that Unicode is okay. Unicode now has quite a range of 
emoji and that set is growing steadily, so that's fine. Not optimal because 
they're black and white, but fine. 
Just not only ASCII ones.

Custom emoji are nice, but definitely not a must.

Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat

[Cristian Baldi]

Hey, just to add to the list of options.

Recently GitLab purchased and open sourceed gitter https://gitter.im

>From the list of features it does look great and is being used by tons of
open source projects, mostly in the web development field.

You can self host it but from reading a bit it looks like you need quite a
bit of server resources: there were like 3 database servers to install.

Another options would be https://www.phacility.com/phabricator/conpherence/
which is integrated into phabricator. It is only web based for now and it
is being used by some of the guys at MediaWiki
https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Phabricator/Using_Conpherence

I don't feel like these could be the best choices but I am just sending
them here because they went unnoticed.

Cristian

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017, 04:53 Eike Hein  wrote:

>
> FWIW, I didn't keep up with Matrix to well in recent times, but
> I remember having a look at it back when it made its first
> splash (the LWN article at all) and at the time I considered
> it the most promising-looking IRC replacement attempt yet.
>
> It had some of the traits of other attempts that failed
> before (larger per-message overhead, lots of complicated state
> on the server, problems with scaling to really large channels)
> but also made a lot of tasteful and practical choices.
>
> I understand they changed their public focus to portraying
> itself as a bridging solution to create any adoption, but at
> the core is a good chat system of its own.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Eike
>
-- 

Cristian Baldi