Re: [lace] Linen thread

[lynrbailey]

Dear Sue et al, This has been discussed already on Arachne several years ago.  
I am one who is patiently waiting to make my Tonder lace in linen.  Alex 
Stillwell told me it was due to the fact that linen thread is now made 
exclusively by machine, and those machines won't accept the very long fibers 
required for the very fine linen thread.  Then there is the idea that fine 
linen was made in Belgium until World War I, after which the flax plants that 
made the special long fine fibers disappeared.  (Although why that strain alone 
would disappear doesn't ring true with me.) I am terrible with names, but I 
seem to recall someone with a doctorate in Maine, USA, experimenting with 
growing flax to get the fine threads, and then perhaps handspin.  I think there 
is one other person doing the same thing, but I don't remember the details.  So 
this is an ongoing issue.  In that years old discussion I think Bart or Francis 
chimed in with the fact that they were working on it, but somethin!
 g didn't work out.  I'm putting my money on the biologists growing the finer 
flax fibers, and handspinning.  Of course, we then will discover why linen 
thread was so very expensive.  However, I for one would be willing to pay the 
price.  

In the meantime, may I recommend Aurifil 50 as a possibility.  40wpc, I find it 
feels much more like linen than Egyptian 60, which feels wimpy to me.

Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where it was near freezing this morning, 
but not quite, windy, and the sun is shining brilliantly.  It is perfect for my 
Landseer Newfoundland, Daisy, to lie out on the deck in the wind and the sun.


"My email sends out an automatic  message. Arachne members,
please ignore it. I read your emails."


 BUT, perhaps I’ve hit a nerve here. Lacemakers are customers too & one might 
wonder if someone wants to please us! Has any thread company tried a 
subscription model? What’s the minimum run? There should be reasonable demand 
for linen 130 to 140/2—40wcm seems like sewing thread. I’m not searching for 
300! In the meantime, I will test my design in cotton so I can move ahead in 
the scale that I selected. Francis is both charming & helpful so I will see 
what he says about the linen. I do think the “grabby” nature of linen would 
produce a superior result. Thanks again to everyone who has corresponded & 
added to this discussion. Sincerely, Susan Hottle, South Florida USA

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[LacySuzette]

Thanks for weighing in on this issue Brenda! I’ve annotated my Threads for 
Lace accordingly. My search has identified all kinds of linen threads/yarns 
that I’d never heard of. Most of them are heavier weight to please the knitters 
& book binders. BUT, perhaps I’ve hit a nerve here. Lacemakers are customers 
too & one might wonder if someone wants to please us! Has any thread company 
tried a subscription model? What’s the minimum run? There should be reasonable 
demand for linen 130 to 140/2—40wcm seems like sewing thread. I’m not searching 
for 300! In the meantime, I will test my design in cotton so I can move ahead 
in the scale that I selected. Francis is both charming & helpful so I will see 
what he says about the linen. I do think the “grabby” nature of linen would 
produce a superior result. Thanks again to everyone who has corresponded & 
added to this discussion. Sincerely, Susan Hottle, South Florida USA

Sent from my iPad

>> On Nov 2, 2020, at 4:51 AM, Brenda Paternoster  
>> wrote:
> Knox’s and J Harris & Sons were discontinued many years ago, as were DMC 
> linen threads and the finer C&F.  I thought that the best chance of still 
> getting a fine linen thread would be from Bart and Francis, but their 130/2 
> isn’t showing on their website.  Several years ago they were looking at 
> producing a very fine linen, but it doesn’t appear to have been a successful 
> project.

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

Knox’s and J Harris & Sons were discontinued many years ago, as were DMC
linen threads and the finer C&F.  I thought that the best chance of still
getting a fine linen thread would be from Bart and Francis, but their 130/2
isn’t showing on their website.  Several years ago they were looking at
producing a very fine linen, but it doesn’t appear to have been a successful
project.

Unfortunately I don’t think there is anyone now spinning very fine linen so
maybe your best chance of finding some will be vintage thread from estate
sales or eBay and hope that it has been stored in cool but not over dry
conditions.

It might be worth contacting Bart and Francis, they might have a bit stashed
away somewhere!  Although Francis’s written English tends to follow
Flemish/Dutch spelling his spoke English is excellent and he will certainly
understand an email written in English.

Brenda

> On 2 Nov 2020, at 00:25,  
wrote:
>
> Pulling out my Paternoster/6, I see the following linen threads are in
range:Bart & Francis 130/2, 34wpc; Bouc 110, 37wpc and 140, 46wpc; C&F 120, 37
wpc, 140, 46wpc; DMC Lin Floche150, 40wpc; DMC Lin pour Dentelles, 70, 40wpc;
Fresia 140/2, 36wpc; J Harris & Sons Pure Flax Lace Thread 140, 44wpc; Knox's
Dragon350, 52 wpc; Knox's Falcon Best 120, 39wpc, 140, 150, 160 to 42wpc.
That's all I can find in that range, and that's not a whole lot.  And I bet a
lot of these are discontinued.  If your heart is set on linen in this weight,
I'd shop in Europe, as Etsy's Provolace doesn't have anything remotely close.
Sorry about that.

Brenda Paternoster
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[lynrbailey]

Pulling out my Paternoster/6, I see the following linen threads are in 
range:Bart & Francis 130/2, 34wpc; Bouc 110, 37wpc and 140, 46wpc; C&F 120, 37 
wpc, 140, 46wpc; DMC Lin Floche150, 40wpc; DMC Lin pour Dentelles, 70, 40wpc; 
Fresia 140/2, 36wpc; J Harris & Sons Pure Flax Lace Thread 140, 44wpc; Knox's 
Dragon350, 52 wpc; Knox's Falcon Best 120, 39wpc, 140, 150, 160 to 42wpc.  
That's all I can find in that range, and that's not a whole lot.  And I bet a 
lot of these are discontinued.  If your heart is set on linen in this weight, 
I'd shop in Europe, as Etsy's Provolace doesn't have anything remotely close.  
Sorry about that.  

Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, where we've been having too much rain in 
the last few days.  Fall is really here.


"My email sends out an automatic  message. Arachne members,
please ignore it. I read your emails."


Sue wrote:
>Hello All! Quick question—it seems like semi-fine linen thread in the 40wcm 
>range is not available in the US. What gives? I want to make a bangle 
>Christmas ornament & try linen. Cotton isn’t my first choice. Any thoughts? 
>Many thanks. Sincerely, Susan Hottle, South Florida, USA 
>

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[LacySuzette]

To follow up—apparently Bockens has discontinued 120/2 linen (34wcm) so Holly 
is offering Fil au Chinois, 1500m. Seems like a 3 lifetime supply plus I was 
aiming for a slightly finer thread. I’ve been working with YLI Fine metallics 
(39wcm) on a 3mm isometric grid. It’s a good fit for that scale, hence my 
search! Susan 

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 1, 2020, at 3:21 PM, Anna Binnie  wrote:
> 
> Has anyone tried Holly Van Scriver? She is my go to person for online when 
> in Oz and phone orders when in US?

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Sue Babbs]

Doesn't anyone in the US stock Moravia linen any more? That's sad!

https://www.kloeppelshop.de/en/Yarn-Wire/Linen-Yarn/Moravia/Moravia-Linen-Yarn-Colored-NeL-40-2.html

Sue
suebabbs...@gmail.com

-- Original Message --
From: "LacySuzette" 
To: "Arachne" 
Sent: 11/1/2020 1:22:44 PM
Subject: [lace] Linen thread


Hello All! Quick question—it seems like semi-fine linen thread in the 40wcm range 
is not available in the US. What gives? I want to make a bangle Christmas ornament 
& try linen. Cotton isn’t my first choice. Any thoughts? Many thanks. 
Sincerely, Susan Hottle, South Florida, USA

Sent from my iPad

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[lace] Linen thread

[LacySuzette]

Hello All! Quick question—it seems like semi-fine linen thread in the 40wcm 
range is not available in the US. What gives? I want to make a bangle Christmas 
ornament & try linen. Cotton isn’t my first choice. Any thoughts? Many thanks. 
Sincerely, Susan Hottle, South Florida, USA 

Sent from my iPad

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[lace] Linen thread

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Arachnids

Researching Mechlin using a Veho microscope I found that much of it was made
using linen thread finer than 240/2 Egyptian cotton, a few with thread as
thick as 200/2 and none with thicker thread. Also most were made using single
ply thread, the flax fibres being sufficiently long that they did not need
plying.

This discussion has been most interesting, this is Arachne at its best.

Blow the dust

Alex

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Lin Hudren]

i live in the desert in southern Nevada USA and at the most humid we get to
about 45%.  we only get 12" of rain each year (mostly within two months).
 storing threads like linen (and cotton) is a challenge so i mostly use
silk and when i need the others, i only order what i need so i don't have
to "store" too much.  i have not had any difficulty with cotton so far and
the silk seems to "not care".  i think the advice for wrapping is awesome.
 we have grit from the winds stirring the grit from the area is a
troublesome consideration for me.  i like plastic bags for protection from
this, but they rot easily and have to be replaced.  in the dryer climes, i
just open the bags up for a month and replace them.  this might not compare
to your area.


Hugs, Lin and the Mali

[image: X Stitching - Subversive cross stitch "Good morning, I see my
assassins have failed" #thirddaughterrestlessdaughter:]

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Brenda Paternoster]

That’s a lot dryer than UK - we are 70%-90% relative humidity.

A fine mist of water into the atmosphere around the cabinet, not directly onto
the linen, from time to time should help especially in the drier/summer
months.

Acid free tape and an acid free marker sound fine to me.

Brenda

> On 14 Nov 2016, at 10:01, Joseph Young 
wrote:
>
> I live in South Australia.
> We dont live in the desert, we have an average humidity of 35-55%. I wouldnt
know how to rate that as dry or mildly damp.
>
> I have a small cabinet that has a mesh front, and a couple of shelves. It
will fit in the bathroom. I will make some trays to put the thread in.
>
> How should i mark the outer of the tissue? Use 3m acid free tape and acid
free marker?
>
> Thanks Brenda, I feel very special being able to talk to you.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Joseph
>
>
> "The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain."
-Dolly Parton
>
> Sent from BlueMail 
>
> On 14 Nov 2016, at 8:15 PM, Brenda Paternoster mailto:paternos...@appleshack.com>> wrote:
>
>> We live in a single story house, with no attic or basement.
>>
>> What is the best way to keep moisture in the thread? Is there a device that
i
>> can keep with the thread when it has been property prepared for storage?
>>
>> At my last resort, i can put a small cabinet in the bathroom too keep the
>> thread. I think that would be my best option at this stage.
>>
>
> What sort of climate do you live in.
>
> Where I am in UK dryness, especially on days like today when it’s just
drizzling rain all the time, looking after linen is no problem, but if you are
in a desert …… Yes a cabinet in the bathroom would be a good option.  Wrap
the spools loosely in acid free tissue, but allow the air to circulate, maybe
open the drawer when the room is steamy, and don’t seal the linen into
polythene bags.
>
> Brenda in Allhallows
> paternos...@appleshack.com 
> www.brendapaternoster.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Tregellas Family]

Hi Joseph,

As you know I live in Adelaide and we have an extremely dry climate with 
quite low humidity.  This is fatal when using linen threads in our 
summer as they tend to just disintegrate very quickly.   I refrain from 
using linen threads during our summer months.


Cheers,
Shirley T.  -  hope you are improving now and sorry we won't see you at 
the Lace House until next year.






On 14-Nov-16 8:31 PM, Joseph Young wrote:

I live in South Australia.
We dont live in the desert, we have an average humidity of 35-55%. I wouldnt 
know how to rate that as dry or mildly damp.

I have a small cabinet that has a mesh front, and a couple of shelves. It will 
fit in the bathroom. I will make some trays to put the thread in.

How should i mark the outer of the tissue? Use 3m acid free tape and acid free 
marker?

Thanks Brenda, I feel very special being able to talk to you.


--
Regards,
Joseph


"The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain." 
-Dolly Parton

Sent from BlueMail

On 14 Nov 2016, at 8:15 PM, Brenda Paternoster 
mailto:paternos...@appleshack.com>> wrote:

We live in a single story house, with no attic or basement.

What is the best way to keep moisture in the thread? Is there a device that i
can keep with the thread when it has been property prepared for storage?

At my last resort, i can put a small cabinet in the bathroom too keep the
thread. I think that would be my best option at this stage.

What sort of climate do you live in.

Where I am in UK dryness, especially on days like today when it’s just 
drizzling rain all the time, looking after linen is no problem, but if you are 
in a desert …… Yes a cabinet in the bathroom would be a good option.  Wrap 
the spools loosely in acid free tissue, but allow the air to circulate, maybe 
open the drawer when the room is steamy, and don’t seal the linen into 
polythene bags.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk







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--
Amateur Radio Home Page
http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Joseph Young]

I live in South Australia.
We dont live in the desert, we have an average humidity of 35-55%. I wouldnt 
know how to rate that as dry or mildly damp.

I have a small cabinet that has a mesh front, and a couple of shelves. It will 
fit in the bathroom. I will make some trays to put the thread in.

How should i mark the outer of the tissue? Use 3m acid free tape and acid free 
marker?

Thanks Brenda, I feel very special being able to talk to you.


--
Regards,
Joseph


"The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain." 
-Dolly Parton

Sent from BlueMail

On 14 Nov 2016, at 8:15 PM, Brenda Paternoster 
mailto:paternos...@appleshack.com>> wrote:

We live in a single story house, with no attic or basement.

What is the best way to keep moisture in the thread? Is there a device that i
can keep with the thread when it has been property prepared for storage?

At my last resort, i can put a small cabinet in the bathroom too keep the
thread. I think that would be my best option at this stage.

What sort of climate do you live in.

Where I am in UK dryness, especially on days like today when it’s just 
drizzling rain all the time, looking after linen is no problem, but if you are 
in a desert …… Yes a cabinet in the bathroom would be a good option.  Wrap 
the spools loosely in acid free tissue, but allow the air to circulate, maybe 
open the drawer when the room is steamy, and don’t seal the linen into 
polythene bags.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk







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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Brenda Paternoster]

> We live in a single story house, with no attic or basement.
>
> What is the best way to keep moisture in the thread? Is there a device that
i
> can keep with the thread when it has been property prepared for storage?
>
> At my last resort, i can put a small cabinet in the bathroom too keep the
> thread. I think that would be my best option at this stage.
>

What sort of climate do you live in.

Where I am in UK dryness, especially on days like today when it’s just
drizzling rain all the time, looking after linen is no problem, but if you are
in a desert …… Yes a cabinet in the bathroom would be a good option.  Wrap
the spools loosely in acid free tissue, but allow the air to circulate, maybe
open the drawer when the room is steamy, and don’t seal the linen into
polythene bags.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Joseph Young]

Thanks for your reply.

I am looking at buying Freesia Linen and Bocken's Linen, I am open to any
recommendations for other linen threads.

We live in a single story house, with no attic or basement.

What is the best way to keep moisture in the thread? Is there a device that i
can keep with the thread when it has been property prepared for storage?

At my last resort, i can put a small cabinet in the bathroom too keep the
thread. I think that would be my best option at this stage.


--
Regards,
Joseph


"The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain."
-Dolly Parton

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Jeriames]

Dear Joseph,
 
A couple years ago, I heard from someone with a museum lace collection that 
 they had determined that some varieties of Acid Free tissue were  drying.  
And so, they were changing their procedures.  Perhaps  Devon can share some 
light on the subject.
 
The other thing to consider is whether the thread is wound on some kind of  
paper product.  I say this, because years ago they might have  used 
cardboard made from rags (cloth).  However, today, manufacturers  are not 
always 
aware, and do not think of such things.  A wood product  would introduce acid 
into the thread.
 
Perhaps you should tell us the name of the thread manufacturer, and then  
Brenda will know more about it.  If there is a paper label, remove it, and  
place it in a fold of whatever you are using to wrap the thread.  Do not  
leave it on the thread.
 
I think that I might use a well-rinsed (of all bleaches and soaps) linen  
towel as the wrap.  

The main thing is to not let linen get too dry, or it will break.  It  is 
compatible with water from the retting process, but once you put it  in home 
storage, it should still be checked from time to time.  

 
And, as with all storage of lace - right now - write on your annual  
calendar to check the condition of the thread 2 times a year (Summer and  
Winter). 
 This needs to be transferred to the new calendar every year, just  like 
you may make notes about birthdays.  I've recommended 2 times a  year, because 
the home's atmosphere is different then.
 
Never store linen/lace in an attic or basement.
 
Jeri Ames in Maine USA
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center
 
In a message dated 11/9/2016 6:47:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
graceadlerdesi...@outlook.com writes:

We don't live in a centrally heated  house, so that's not a problem.

I can install a small ventilated cabinet  in the bathroom if need be. I was 
more thinking about some sort of  humidor.

I have some Acid-Free tissue on order at the  moment.Regards, Joseph

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Joseph Young]

Thank you Brenda,

We don't live in a centrally heated house, so that's not a problem.

I can install a small ventilated cabinet in the bathroom if need be. I was more 
thinking about some sort of humidor.

I have some Acid-Free tissue on order at the moment.

Thanks again.

--
Regards,
Joseph


"The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain." 
-Dolly Parton

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Brenda Paternoster]

>
> I would like to start buying some linen thread as i really like the texture
and the while concept of a fiber that you can grow (other than cotton and the
likes). I do know that linen threads store really well, but are difficult to
store.

Like any textile fibre linen is best stored in the dark.  It also does not
like being too dry, so don’t keep it in a centrally heated atmosphere.  A
ventilated cupboard in the bathroom, or a steamy kitchen, would be good - but
not if t gets contaminated with food!

I daresay Jeri will add something about ensuring that for long term storage
it’s wrapped in acid free tissue etc.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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[lace] Linen Thread Storage

[Joseph Young]

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading up on long term storage of linen. I like to collect 
supplies when i can get them, I call myself a collector, others call me a 
hoarder.

I would like to start buying some linen thread as i really like the texture and 
the while concept of a fiber that you can grow (other than cotton and the 
likes). I do know that linen threads store really well, but are difficult to 
store.

Where would i begin to start storing the linen thread for the long term. I 
would like to do it right the first time.

I would love to hear any factoids about linen, and how you like it.

--
Regards,
Joseph


"The way I see it, if you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain." 
-Dolly Parton

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

> I seem to remember many years ago reading that the cultivars of flax that
made the finest threads were deliberately destroyed during the French
Revolution, along with any saved seeds. However, all may not be lost! Flax is
a diploid plant with perfect flowers, an inbreeding system, and an annual
habit. The means it should  (theoretically) be fairly easy to identify,
isolate and breed new varieties.
> I decided last spring that I wanted to play around with developing new
varieties of some garden veggies, and thought it would be fun to try flax as
well. It was too late to start this season-- flax needs to be planted as soon
as the ground can be worked and it was already late spring when I started
thinking about it. I had hoped to begin  in spring of 2017, and wanted to
start with several different varieties of seeds. But it is very difficult to
find more than 1 or 2 varieties. So I will play around with what I can find
and see what happens.
> It's important to remember that we don't have to wait for some big research
facility to get us better linen threads. Anyone with a home garden and a cool
climate can jump in and do their part for horticulture and lace!

It would be brilliant if you could do it, but it would probably be a one-off
handspun thread.  Even if you do manage to breed flax with very fine bast
fibres the big problems would be growing enough and then finding a commercial
spinner prepared to take on a very small production run.

A couple of years ago Bart & Francis in Belgium were hoping to get some very
fine linen into production again but I have heard nothing more about that.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Linen Thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

>>  The size of
>> the linen is size 50, 60, and 70. The brand is Campbell' s made in
Ireland.
>> What type of lace would you recommend for this linen I also acquired a few
>> skeins of linen years ago 6 skeins size 60 thread W. J. Knox LTP LC on
the
>> label and 3 size 20 with the same maker. What would you use these linen
>> threads for?

Campbell’s 50/2 = 18 w/cm.  60/3 and 70/2 are both 22 w/cm.  Knox’s LC 20
= 18 w/cm
As Jane says these are tablecloth weights, ie torchon with 6mm-7mm between
foot edge pins for the Campbells 50/2 and the Knox 20; 5mm or 6mm between the
foot edge pins for the 60/3 and the 70/2.

Knox’s LC 60 is a bit finer at 31 w/cm which is about the same as most 3ply
cotton sewing machine threads, or size 80-100 crochet cottons, use for torchon
with 4mm between foot edge pins, heavy Beds or Bruges etc.

BTW - it was  W.J. Knox Ltd, (not Knox LTP) and LC was the product - sometimes
called LC lace thread - I don’t know what LC stood for though.  It should be
in skeins (UK use of the word skein ie small hanks) with gold and red printing
on the labels.


Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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[lace] Linen thread

[Elise Waber-Hays]

Hello,I have read with interest the discussion regarding linen threads. I know 
I have missed part of it since I don't subscribe to the digest, so please 
forgive me if I am repeating something that has already been said. 
I seem to remember many years ago reading that the cultivars of flax that made 
the finest threads were deliberately destroyed during the French Revolution, 
along with any saved seeds. However, all may not be lost! Flax is a diploid 
plant with perfect flowers, an inbreeding system, and an annual habit. The 
means it should  (theoretically) be fairly easy to identify, isolate and breed 
new varieties. 
I decided last spring that I wanted to play around with developing new 
varieties of some garden veggies, and thought it would be fun to try flax as 
well. It was too late to start this season-- flax needs to be planted as soon  
as the ground can be worked and it was already late spring when I started 
thinking about it. I had hoped to begin  in spring of 2017, and wanted to 
start with several different varieties of seeds. But it is very difficult to 
find more than 1 or 2 varieties. So I will play around with what I can find and 
see what happens.
It's important to remember that we don't have to wait for some big research 
facility to get us better linen threads. Anyone with a home garden and a cool 
climate can jump in and do their part for horticulture and lace!
Elise in Maine where the fall colors are spectacular this year!

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[lace] Linen Thread

[Jane]

First of all, I just recently got some linen  thread off Ebay. The size of
the linen is size 50, 60, and 70. The brand is Campbell' s made in Ireland.
What type of lace would you recommend for this linen I also acquired a few
skeins of linen years ago 6 skeins size 60 thread W. J. Knox LTP LC on the
label and 3 size 20 with the same maker. What would you use these linen
threads for?


Hi Sherry,

I can't see that anyone has answered this question. I was hoping Brenda 
would chip in, as she is our thread expert.


Back in the '70s it was difficult to get *any* thread for lace making. 
As I remember it, Knox went out of business and after a bit we 
discovered Campbells. Bockens came later (I think, but it was a long 
time ago). Both were good quality (I was given to understand that 
Ireland produced the 'best' linen, but that was in the '60s). Its years 
since I used Campbells - and decades since I used Knox threads.


Therefore I recommend that you check the strength of the thread. It may 
be quite old and may have deteriorated.


We used these threads for 'domestic' lace, tablecloths, mats, doilies, 
handkerchiefs, etc, torchon, cluny, beds, beds-maltese, etc. Not bucks, 
honiton, milanese, or anything fine. Lace made from Campbells was 
hard-wearing and could be washed again and again *in the washing machine*.


I think Campbells 30 was good for tablecloths, but 50 might be ok. 
Certainly 50 to 70 would be good for mats, not sure 70 would be fine 
enough for hanky edging.

Is the 60 Knox finer? If so, it may be good for hankies.

Hope this is helpful. Best wishes,
Jane
In an autumnal New Forest

PS. I've still got some Campbells buried in my 'stash', too tired to 
look for it now. Mum probably has Knox thread as well. Can't believe how 
old we've grown .


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Re: [lace] Linen thread as it was before World War I

[catherinebar...@btinternet.com]

Sent from my iPad 

Catherine Barley Needlelace
www.catherinebarley.com

> On 17 Oct 2016, at 16:23, Jeriames@AOL.
> 
> Thank you Jeri for once again taking the time and trouble to post a lengthy 
> email full of interesting history about lace related facts.  I'm sure that 
> many of us who complain about no longer being able to grow flax fine enough 
> to produce the same beautifully fine linen threads that we all long for, 
> didn't appreciate that none of the flax seeds survived those war years due to 
> contamination of the soil!  Sadly we shall never be able to reproduce lace of 
> such quality but must content ourselves by working with fine cotton thread 
> instead of the superior, extremely fine linen threads available to our 
> predecessors.

Catherine Barley
UK
> 
> To add to explanations about visually disturbing slubs in linen threads  
> produced today for making lace.  AND to add to your understanding  of the 
> history of women in the lace "industry":
> 
> There are books that will supply interesting background information  about 
> the massive destruction during World War I of the areas where flax  was 
> cultivated in Belgium.  Ugly oil from German tanks contaminated the  lands 
> where 
> flax was grown..
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/lace@arachne.com/index.html
> 
> Jeri Ames in Maine
> 

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Re: [lace] Linen thread as it was before World War I

[Jeriames]

Original October 16 question:
 
Hello All!  May I ask what brand linen thread you are using &  why?  I'm a 
bit steamed to find big hunks of lint stuck in 90/2 linen  thread & unsure 
of whether to pick it out & risk breaking the thread or  cutting it out & 
adding a new bobbin.  While I realize that linen was  nicer in the "good old 
days", I'm concerned that there seems to be so little  quality control for 
thread that is now $xx a spool!  Is one brand doing a  better job of it than 
another or is this just the new normal?   Comments?  Suggestions?  Many 
thanks.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle  USA  

--
 
To add to explanations about visually disturbing slubs in linen threads  
produced today for making lace.  AND to add to your understanding  of the 
history of women in the lace "industry":
 
There are books that will supply interesting background information  about 
the massive destruction during World War I of the areas where flax  was 
cultivated in Belgium.  Ugly oil from German tanks contaminated the  lands 
where 
flax was grown.  Water from the River Lys, used for  retting, was 
contaminated by war ships.  This water containing unique  chemicals/minerals 
had 
produced the whitest linen thread then  available - anywhere.  One strain of 
most importance for the making of  the finest threads (claimed to be finer than 
a human hair) was completely  lost.  No seeds survived the war.  The 
cultivation of this  strain had been completely manual, with personal attention 
 
given to each plant.  No machines in the growing fields.  It grew  tall (I 
think I remember it was waist high), meaning less joins (if any) by  spinners. 
 
After WWI, all citizens were needed to rebuild the nation, and produce  
quickly-made products for export to pay war debts.  Fashions required much  
less (or no) lace, which could be supplied by elderly lacemakers.   Younger 
lacemakers turned to other available work to support  themselves.  
 
Hopefully, everyone will have read "Bobbins of Belgium" by Charlotte  
Kellogg?  It was scanned from my copy, and is on the Arizona site.   She wrote 
a 
second book, "Women of Belgium" which was about how they organized  to keep 
the domestic population fed and clothed.  They used aid that came  from the 
Commission for Relief in Belgium, set up in England by a future  U.S. 
President - Herbert Hoover.  The negotiations with the Germans  occupying 
Belgium, 
and the British which had many ships deployed as a blockade,  even included 
thread needed to make lace.  The Germans insisted  the thread (produced in 
another country) be weighed when it was  delivered to Belgium, and the 
finished lace was weighed when it was sent out  to defray some of the costs of 
the aid.  We call this "War  Lace".
 
Here is an address where you can read both books:
 
_http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Kellogg%2C%
20Charlotte_ 
(http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Kellogg,%20Charlotte)
  
 
There are also books about growing flax, and sometimes processing it.   The 
best (to me) is by Bert Dewilde of Kortrijk/Courtrai (Belgians are  
bi-lingual: Flemish/French).  Title:  "Flax in Flanders Throughout the  
Centuries: 
History..Technical Evolution..Folklore"  Published in English by  Lannoo, 
ISBN 90-209-1498-7, 1987, purchased as an out-of-print used  book in 2013 
through a local book store which ordered it from Belgium, 216  pages.  Here, 
you 
learn everything about Belgian flax.   Dewilde is behind the founding of 
the Flax Museum in his town, and  participants of the 1998 OIDFA Gent Lace 
Tour went to this fabulous place.   In a separate building, an enchanting large 
lace collection was presented,  which I believe was reviewed at the time in 
OIDFA publications.  Also in  this town is the thread business of Bart and 
Francis.  So - if you  appreciate these kinds of things (?), here are 
several resources for you to  research further.
 
Sorry to those who do not appreciate history.  It seems a shame  not to 
share.  WE STAND ON THE SHOULDERS of remarkable, very  hard-working women, 
whose history has been undocumented.  They saved  children from starvation 
during and after terrible wars all over the world  - going back to the 
beginning 
of human habitation of this  world.  
 
In this case, even before WWI, Belgium imported much of the food needed to  
sustain its population (it is a land-poor nation), so you can imagine the  
magnitude of the problems they faced.  You may be descended from some  of 
them.  A new book about the War Laces and what has happened since the  end of 
WWI (1918) is being written in Belgium by a highly-regarded lace  scholar, 
and will be published in 2018 in honor of our favorite subject:  LACE.  It 
will be available to those who travel to Bruges to attend  the lace 
festivities being planned by our Belgian "sisters".
 
Incidentally, the Australian crochet expert, Barbara Ballantyne, wrote  
about 

[lace] Linen thread

[devonthein]

I have not seen slubs in old linen thread that made the very fine laces. In
fact, I believe it is the extremely long staple of the linen that made it
capable of being spun so thin. Jean suggests that it may be due to the hand
processing of the flax that makes the difference, as opposed to industrial
processing, which I think is true. Someone once told me that they chop up the
linen so it will be easier to feed it into the industrial spinning machines.)
But I think it goes even farther in that at a time when very fine flax was a
very expensive commodity with a ready market, labor intensive cultivation
methods, including selecting the longest staple plants for the seed for the
following year were economically worthwhile. Some people think that if there
was a demand, the flax of the present could be “bred back” to the quality
of the flax at that time. Also other phases of the processing like the
retting, would merit different and more labor intensive processing if there
was an economic upside to it.
I actually find it interesting that there is current excitement for and
celebration of “micro fibers” while the naturally based micro fibers of
old do not find a market.
Devon


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[lace] Linen thread

[hottleco]

Thank you Alice!  When you mentioned Fresia linen thread, the lightbulb finally 
went on.  When I was buying my thread in an assortment of sizes, my choices 
were between Fresia & the other one.  The one I bought has a more matte finish 
& the explanation was that Fresia is mercerized.  So I just read this very cool 
article about hemp, flax & processing fibers at:  
https://oecotextiles.wordpress.com/category/fibers/linen-fibers/  & discovered 
that mercerizing rounds & straightens the fibers while adding luster.  Although 
I knew a bit about retting, I had no clue what mercerizing added to the process 
& I would never have made this connection if you had not mentioned the Fresia!  
Thank you Alice & others for all your help & suggestions.  I will be a better 
informed thread shopper going forward!  Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA 

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Clay Blackwell]

I have seen many fine old Binche pieces in the German Lace Guild's museum, and 
the threads were extremely fine.  Even a tiny slub would have affected the 
quality of the lace!  In the old flax, not only were the fibers much finer, but 
they were also much longer, so that allowed fine threads which were also strong.

Many years ago, there was a fascinating lecture on the production of linen.  I 
would love to see that information published in the IOLI bulletin!

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 17, 2016, at 4:12 AM, Kathleen Harris  wrote:
> 
> I have spun flax into linen thread, fine enough to make lace, but only just! 
> I made a small owl with it (Gill Dye's design?). I have discussed linen 
> thread with tutors from the Kantcentrum in Bruges. They told me that the old 
> varieties of flax, which were used to produce linen thread fine enough to 
> make, for instance, Binche lace, have been lost. Today's flax varieties just 
> do not have fine enough fibres. So the finest lace has to be made from 
> cotton! 
> 
> I wonder if there are slubs in old Binche lace - I have never looked, but it 
> should be possible to do so, maybe in museums in Belgium.
> 
> Kathleen
> Berkshire, UK
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 16 Oct 2016, at 21:14, Adele Shaak  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Susan:
>> 
>> True story - in London the mid-1960s, linen manufacturers worked and worked 
>> to get the slubs (that’s what those big hunks of lint are called) out of the 
>> linen thread used to make fabric, because people wanted smooth linen for 
>> high-quality dressmaking. Then the 60s fashion revolution happened and 
>> designer Mary Quant headed the trend that convinced them to keep the slubs, 
>> for the texture.
>> 
>> Nothing to do with your 90/2 thread, of course, but an interesting story. 
>> 
>> Anyway, slubs have always been a part of linen thread. We’ve had a lot of 
>> discussions about linen thread over the years; you could probably find them 
>> in the archive. There are all sorts of twists and turns to the story (excuse 
>> the pun). Smooth threads in manufacturing are often achieved through cutting 
>> up the long flax fibre into very small pieces that are wet spun to achieve 
>> uniformity - but that takes away much of the strength of the fibre. Plus, 
>> it’s difficult to spin very fine linen thread by machine - in the past, very 
>> expert master handspinners achieved very fine linen threads, but that 
>> quality of skill just doesn’t exist any more. 
>> 
>> When I was into handspinning, every year I’d meet one or two people who were 
>> determined to learn handspinning so they could re-create the very fine linen 
>> threads of 200 years ago. They’d take the class and buy the equipment and 
>> the hank of flax and you’d never hear from them again, and I’m not 
>> surprised. I tried it once and with great difficulty I was able to produce a 
>> fair-quality baling twine ;-)
>> 
>> I must say that I love to use linen thread and I don’t notice the slubs in 
>> the finished lace. Maybe I’m just so used to them, maybe it’s because 
>> mangling makes the lace look different, maybe they just don’t bug me the way 
>> they do you. I don’t know! You’re right in thinking that you will risk 
>> breaking the thread by picking out the slub. The thread will also be less 
>> twisted in the place where the slub used to be, and will be weaker in that 
>> spot as a result.
>> 
>> This probably doesn’t help much, but since the list is quiet I thought 
>> nobody’d mind.
>> 
>> Adele
>> West Vancouver, BC
>> (west coast of Canada)
>> 
>>> Hello All!  May I ask what brand linen thread you are using & why?  I'm a 
>>> bit steamed to find big hunks of lint stuck in 90/2 linen thread & unsure 
>>> of whether to pick it out & risk breaking the thread or cutting it out & 
>>> adding a new bobbin.  While I realize that linen was nicer in the "good old 
>>> days", I'm concerned that there seems to be so little quality control for 
>>> thread that is now $xx a spool!  Is one brand doing a better job of it than 
>>> another or is this just the new normal?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Many 
>>> thanks.  Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA 
>> 
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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Clay Blackwell]

My perspective is that there a variety of qualities of linen that give us 
multiple options when planning a project.  Some threads are fairly smooth, and 
others have lots of slubs.  The art of matching the thread to the design is 
part of the fun!

Clay

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 16, 2016, at 2:45 PM,   
> wrote:
> 
> Hello All!  May I ask what brand linen thread you are using & why?  I'm a bit 
> steamed to find big hunks of lint stuck in 90/2 linen thread & unsure of 
> whether to pick it out & risk breaking the thread or cutting it out & adding 
> a new bobbin.  While I realize that linen was nicer in the "good old days", 
> I'm concerned that there seems to be so little quality control for thread 
> that is now $xx a spool!  Is one brand doing a better job of it than another 
> or is this just the new normal?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Many thanks.  
> Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA 
> 
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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Jean Leader]

On 17 Oct 2016, at 09:12, Kathleen Harris  wrote:

> They told me that the old varieties of flax, which were used to produce linen 
> thread fine enough to make, for instance, Binche lace, have been lost. 
> Today's flax varieties just do not have fine enough fibres.

I have heard that too, but wonder if it could also be to do with modern 
industrial processing versus the old hand processing of the flax. Hand 
processing is likely to be gentler and might also give the opportunity to 
select the finer fibres. 

Many years ago when I was a new lacemaker I also had the idea of spinning linen 
thread to make lace and even produced enough to make a few inches of a Torchon 
fan edging. Then I moved on to Bucks Point and it certainly wasn’t fine enough 
for that so I gave up. I’m a better spinner now so maybe I should try again but 
first I’d have to find the prepared flax!

Jean in damp, grey Glasgow

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Kathleen Harris]

I have spun flax into linen thread, fine enough to make lace, but only just! I 
made a small owl with it (Gill Dye's design?). I have discussed linen thread 
with tutors from the Kantcentrum in Bruges. They told me that the old varieties 
of flax, which were used to produce linen thread fine enough to make, for 
instance, Binche lace, have been lost. Today's flax varieties just do not have 
fine enough fibres. So the finest lace has to be made from cotton! 

I wonder if there are slubs in old Binche lace - I have never looked, but it 
should be possible to do so, maybe in museums in Belgium.

Kathleen
Berkshire, UK

Sent from my iPad

> On 16 Oct 2016, at 21:14, Adele Shaak  wrote:
> 
> Hi Susan:
> 
> True story - in London the mid-1960s, linen manufacturers worked and worked 
> to get the slubs (that’s what those big hunks of lint are called) out of the 
> linen thread used to make fabric, because people wanted smooth linen for 
> high-quality dressmaking. Then the 60s fashion revolution happened and 
> designer Mary Quant headed the trend that convinced them to keep the slubs, 
> for the texture.
> 
> Nothing to do with your 90/2 thread, of course, but an interesting story. 
> 
> Anyway, slubs have always been a part of linen thread. We’ve had a lot of 
> discussions about linen thread over the years; you could probably find them 
> in the archive. There are all sorts of twists and turns to the story (excuse 
> the pun). Smooth threads in manufacturing are often achieved through cutting 
> up the long flax fibre into very small pieces that are wet spun to achieve 
> uniformity - but that takes away much of the strength of the fibre. Plus, 
> it’s difficult to spin very fine linen thread by machine - in the past, very 
> expert master handspinners achieved very fine linen threads, but that quality 
> of skill just doesn’t exist any more. 
> 
> When I was into handspinning, every year I’d meet one or two people who were 
> determined to learn handspinning so they could re-create the very fine linen 
> threads of 200 years ago. They’d take the class and buy the equipment and the 
> hank of flax and you’d never hear from them again, and I’m not surprised. I 
> tried it once and with great difficulty I was able to produce a fair-quality 
> baling twine ;-)
> 
> I must say that I love to use linen thread and I don’t notice the slubs in 
> the finished lace. Maybe I’m just so used to them, maybe it’s because 
> mangling makes the lace look different, maybe they just don’t bug me the way 
> they do you. I don’t know! You’re right in thinking that you will risk 
> breaking the thread by picking out the slub. The thread will also be less 
> twisted in the place where the slub used to be, and will be weaker in that 
> spot as a result.
> 
> This probably doesn’t help much, but since the list is quiet I thought 
> nobody’d mind.
> 
> Adele
> West Vancouver, BC
> (west coast of Canada)
> 
>> Hello All!  May I ask what brand linen thread you are using & why?  I'm a 
>> bit steamed to find big hunks of lint stuck in 90/2 linen thread & unsure of 
>> whether to pick it out & risk breaking the thread or cutting it out & adding 
>> a new bobbin.  While I realize that linen was nicer in the "good old days", 
>> I'm concerned that there seems to be so little quality control for thread 
>> that is now $xx a spool!  Is one brand doing a better job of it than another 
>> or is this just the new normal?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Many thanks.  
>> Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA 
> 
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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[lacel...@frontier.com]

Not all brands of linen are the same.  I used Fresia brand linen in the
tablecloth I finished this year.  It was quite smooth.  The few slubs were
far apart.  I think the Fresia thread was made for lacemaking.  The linen
that is full of slubs was probably made for weaving, and the slubs were
intentional for texture.

Alice in Oregon

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 1:59 PM, Susan  wrote:


 Thank you Adele!  I particularly appreciate your reference to linen clothing
as there as some very fine linen clothes out there.  Beautiful to wear &
launder--& they last for years.  Others are unsuitable for much of anything &
they don't last long even on delicate cycle!  So It seems that finely spun
linen thread is currently available for high-quality dressmaking.  I was just
hoping that there might be a discernible difference among thread brands for
our purposes.  Slubs are less egregious in 40/2 thread where the lace is more
robust, but from my perspective, they aren't welcome in 90/2 for finely
textured lace.  I won't name names, but the one I used is well known & not
cheap stuff.  Bummer.  Thanks again for the wake up call.  You can probably
tell that I use more cotton & silk thread.  ;-)  Still growling, Susan
Hottle USA

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 16, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Adele Shaak  wrote:
>
> 
> I must say that I love to use linen thread and I don’t notice the slubs in
the finished lace. Maybe I’m just so used to them, maybe it’s because
mangling makes the lace look different, maybe they just don’t bug me the way
they do you. I don’t know! You’re right in thinking that you will risk
breaking the thread by picking out the slub. The thread will also be less
twisted in the place where the slub used to be, and will be weaker in that
spot as a result.

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Susan]

Thank you Adele!  I particularly appreciate your reference to linen clothing as 
there as some very fine linen clothes out there.  Beautiful to wear & 
launder--& they last for years.  Others are unsuitable for much of anything & 
they don't last long even on delicate cycle!  So It seems that finely spun 
linen thread is currently available for high-quality dressmaking.  I was just 
hoping that there might be a discernible difference among thread brands for our 
purposes.  Slubs are less egregious in 40/2 thread where the lace is more 
robust, but from my perspective, they aren't welcome in 90/2 for finely 
textured lace.  I won't name names, but the one I used is well known & not 
cheap stuff.  Bummer.  Thanks again for the wake up call.  You can probably 
tell that I use more cotton & silk thread.  ;-)   Still growling, Susan Hottle 
USA

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 16, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Adele Shaak  wrote:
> 
>  
> I must say that I love to use linen thread and I don’t notice the slubs in 
> the finished lace. Maybe I’m just so used to them, maybe it’s because 
> mangling makes the lace look different, maybe they just don’t bug me the way 
> they do you. I don’t know! You’re right in thinking that you will risk 
> breaking the thread by picking out the slub. The thread will also be less 
> twisted in the place where the slub used to be, and will be weaker in that 
> spot as a result.

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Re: [lace] Linen thread

[Adele Shaak]

Hi Susan:

True story - in London the mid-1960s, linen manufacturers worked and worked to 
get the slubs (that’s what those big hunks of lint are called) out of the linen 
thread used to make fabric, because people wanted smooth linen for high-quality 
dressmaking. Then the 60s fashion revolution happened and designer Mary Quant 
headed the trend that convinced them to keep the slubs, for the texture.

Nothing to do with your 90/2 thread, of course, but an interesting story. 

Anyway, slubs have always been a part of linen thread. We’ve had a lot of 
discussions about linen thread over the years; you could probably find them in 
the archive. There are all sorts of twists and turns to the story (excuse the 
pun). Smooth threads in manufacturing are often achieved through cutting up the 
long flax fibre into very small pieces that are wet spun to achieve uniformity 
- but that takes away much of the strength of the fibre. Plus, it’s difficult 
to spin very fine linen thread by machine - in the past, very expert master 
handspinners achieved very fine linen threads, but that quality of skill just 
doesn’t exist any more. 

When I was into handspinning, every year I’d meet one or two people who were 
determined to learn handspinning so they could re-create the very fine linen 
threads of 200 years ago. They’d take the class and buy the equipment and the 
hank of flax and you’d never hear from them again, and I’m not surprised. I 
tried it once and with great difficulty I was able to produce a fair-quality 
baling twine ;-)

I must say that I love to use linen thread and I don’t notice the slubs in the 
finished lace. Maybe I’m just so used to them, maybe it’s because mangling 
makes the lace look different, maybe they just don’t bug me the way they do 
you. I don’t know! You’re right in thinking that you will risk breaking the 
thread by picking out the slub. The thread will also be less twisted in the 
place where the slub used to be, and will be weaker in that spot as a result.

This probably doesn’t help much, but since the list is quiet I thought nobody’d 
mind.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

> Hello All!  May I ask what brand linen thread you are using & why?  I'm a bit 
> steamed to find big hunks of lint stuck in 90/2 linen thread & unsure of 
> whether to pick it out & risk breaking the thread or cutting it out & adding 
> a new bobbin.  While I realize that linen was nicer in the "good old days", 
> I'm concerned that there seems to be so little quality control for thread 
> that is now $xx a spool!  Is one brand doing a better job of it than another 
> or is this just the new normal?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Many thanks.  
> Sincerely, Susan Hottle USA 

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[lace] Linen thread

[hottleco]

Hello All!  May I ask what brand linen thread you are using & why?  I'm a bit 
steamed to find big hunks of lint stuck in 90/2 linen thread & unsure of 
whether to pick it out & risk breaking the thread or cutting it out & adding a 
new bobbin.  While I realize that linen was nicer in the "good old days", I'm 
concerned that there seems to be so little quality control for thread that is 
now $xx a spool!  Is one brand doing a better job of it than another or is this 
just the new normal?  Comments?  Suggestions?  Many thanks.  Sincerely, Susan 
Hottle USA 

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Re: [lace] Knox's Gimp Lace Linen Thread

[Jill Hawkins]

Brilliant!  Many thanks Brenda.

Jill
in Milton Keynes

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Re: [lace] Knox's Gimp Lace Linen Thread

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Jill

Knox’s Gimp, Lace linen is listed (page 21 in Ed 5) but I haven’t seen it as 
fine as size 60.
2-cord just means 2-ply, which all of the other sizes of Knox’s Gimp are.

Because there are eight other sizes listed I’ve drawn a graph with size on one 
axis and w/cm on the other, and it comes out as a fairly straight line so I 
would predict that size 60 will be around 38-40 w/cm

Brenda

On 1 Aug 2014, at 09:48, Jill Hawkins  wrote:

> Is anyone familiar with Knox's Gimp Lace Linen Thread, 2 cord, 60?  A friend 
> won
> a spool in an auction recently and is keen to know what thread this might
> compare to.  I have looked in Brenda Paternoster's book and found some other
> sizes of this thread, but nothing that is 2 cord, 60.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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[lace] Knox's Gimp Lace Linen Thread

[Jill Hawkins]

Is anyone familiar with Knox's Gimp Lace Linen Thread, 2 cord, 60?  A friend won
a spool in an auction recently and is keen to know what thread this might
compare to.  I have looked in Brenda Paternoster's book and found some other
sizes of this thread, but nothing that is 2 cord, 60.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jill
in Milton Keynes, where it is currently sunny but looking very much like it will
rain very soon

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[lace] linen thread and winter

[Gon Homburg]

>  In the evening when I'm done I cover the lace, then spray the cover with 
> plain water.  Much less water than actually moistening the towel, and let it 
> sit overnight with no other cover.  It is very difficult to see if it's 
> working, as only 3 threads breaking in a week, of about 10 hours' working, 
> isn't a lot.

When I am working in the winter with linen thread, I wet a handkerchief with 
water about 30 minutes before I stop working. The handkerchief is hung over the 
heating, which should be not too hot. The handkerchief should be damp when I 
lay it over the lace, threads and bobbins. This way it stays overnight until I 
start again working on the lace. For me this worked always fine.

When you spray the cover the moisture has to go first through the cover before 
affecting the threads. An other problem can be that every spot on the cover is 
not wet and another spot can be too wet.

Best thing is to try what works the best for you and your work. Not every house 
and place has the same humidity.

Best regards,

Gon Homburg, Amsterdam, The Netherlands

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Re: [lace] Linen thread and winter

[Dmt11home]

My first teacher advised taking a paper towel, wetting it,  wringing it out 
and sort of arranging it in a three dimensional shape  with lots of 
surfaces, under the cover cloth which is held up with  pins. This creates sort 
of a 
vapor chamber that is not air tight and that does  not have the damp towel 
directly in contact with threads or pricking. You leave  it that way over 
night.
Another teacher that I had like to place a more absorptive  disposable 
towel product, (handi wipes?) under the area where the threads  were  
diagonally 
suspended in air going from the bobbins laid flat on the  apron of a roller 
pillow to the elevated roller. The advantage of this was  that the towel 
could provide a constant low humidity drifting up to the threads  while you 
were working. 
When not following this advice, and instead trying more heavy  handed 
methods,  I have experienced the color transferring from an orange  cardboard 
pricking and also mustiness and discoloration. So, extreme moderation  is now 
my watchword.
One teacher advised taking the pillow into the bathroom and  running the 
shower or hot water to create a high humidity situation and leaving  it there 
for a few hours. I have tried this, but I think it might be deleterious  to 
the pillow as a whole. 
 
Devon

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Re: [lace] Linen thread and winter

[Clay Blackwell]

Hi Lynn...

Years ago, there was an extensive series of discussions about this issue.  Our 
Polar Vortex has really affected the threads with which we work!  

You are right to add moisture to your threads when the humidity is so low in 
our heated homes.  As I recall, the collective advice was to place a damp cloth 
over the work, and then cover with something that doesn't "breathe", such as 
Saran Wrap.  

My instinct is to use filtered water to dampen the cloth, and to uncover it 
daily to inhibit the growth of mold or mildew.  A tricky balance.  It would be 
wise to launder this cloth on a regular basis.

In addition, there is a difference between the reaction of cotton and of linen 
to humidity...  So this means you need to know what you're working with, and 
treat it accordingly.

I hope Jeri Ames can fill in the gaps/disavow any errors!

Clay



Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 25, 2014, at 5:57 PM, "Lyn Bailey"  wrote:
> 
> I have been working away on the edging for the altar cloth.  2 weeks ago I 
> had made a total of 108 inches, only 26 inches to go.  And then, when we were 
> having all that very cold weather and the heat was on much more than usual, 3 
> threads broke in one week.  Not cool.  I remembered that lacemakers were to 
> make lace in damp basements, and thought to moisturize my 40/2 Bockens.  I 
> have a fairly thick linen cover cloth for the project, got it from Vadstena, 
> Sweden.  It's about twice as thick as a linen tea towel.  In the evening when 
> I'm done I cover the lace, then spray the cover with plain water.  Much less 
> water than actually moistening the towel, and let it sit overnight with no 
> other cover.  It is very difficult to see if it's working, as only 3 threads 
> breaking in a week, of about 10 hours' working, isn't a lot.
> 
> My question is, do you see any problems with this?  Might it work?
> 
> 

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[lace] Linen thread and winter

[Lyn Bailey]

I have been working away on the edging for the altar cloth.  2 weeks ago I 
had made a total of 108 inches, only 26 inches to go.  And then, when we 
were having all that very cold weather and the heat was on much more than 
usual, 3 threads broke in one week.  Not cool.  I remembered that lacemakers 
were to make lace in damp basements, and thought to moisturize my 40/2 
Bockens.  I have a fairly thick linen cover cloth for the project, got it 
from Vadstena, Sweden.  It's about twice as thick as a linen tea towel.  In 
the evening when I'm done I cover the lace, then spray the cover with plain 
water.  Much less water than actually moistening the towel, and let it sit 
overnight with no other cover.  It is very difficult to see if it's working, 
as only 3 threads breaking in a week, of about 10 hours' working, isn't a 
lot.


My question is, do you see any problems with this?  Might it work?

Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA where it was another good winter day, 
although cold.  The snow hasn't melted at all in 5 days.  But it's not that 
really dangerous cold. 


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Re: [lace] Linen thread questions cross post

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hi Sherry

Knox was a leading manufacturer of lace thread until sometime mid 20th century, 
so if your thread is still in good condition and hasn't dried out and become 
week you can use it for bobbinlace.  Size 20 measures 18 wraps/cm and between 
Perle 8 and Perle 12 in thickness.  You need a (torchon) pattern with about 7mm 
between the footedge pins.

I have a skein of size 25 which I estimate to be about 45 yards long, the 
thicker size 20 might well be a bit less, perhaps 40 yards, so three skeins 
should make a narrow hankie edging, although you might think it's a bit coarse.

Brenda


> My thread still had their labels on them. I have six skeins
> that say Linen Lace Thread, LC in red lettering size 60 W.&J.Knox,Ltd and
> below that it says Kilbirnie, Scotland. I also have three skeins of Linen
> thread that says the same on the label except it is size 20. I am not
> completely sure where I got the thread from. I have an inkling but not sure.
> Does anybody know anything about this thread like how old it is, and if it
> would actually make some good bobbinlace. I wonder how much lace I could make
> using the six skeins of this thread. There is no yardage on the label and the
> thread looks to be like natural white,  not blinding white.  I wonder
> if  I  would have enough to make a hankie edge or even
> do you think the thread would be appropriate for making a hankie edge?

Brenda in Allhallows
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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[lace] linen thread question

[Lorelei Halley]

Sherry
The first thing I would do is pull out a length and try breaking it with your
hands.  Whether that is easy or hard to do will show you if the linen is in
good enough condition to use.  If it breaks as easily as 2 strands of stranded
cotton, throw it out or use it for surface embroidery.  It must be at least as
strong as #80 tatting cotton.

If it is strong enough perhaps you have enough for a narrow edging on a small
hanky, or perhaps a hankie corner or small mat.

I had some old linen I thought of using.  But when I tried the "break" test,
it was so weak I decided it was useless.
Lorelei

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[lace] Linen thread questions cross post

[Celtic Dream Weaver]

  There was a discussion I think on Linen thread. It got me thinking that I
had some around here somewhere. Well the other evening I was looking for
something else and lo and behold here was the linen thread that I had. I think
it is old thread. My thread still had their labels on them. I have six skeins
that say Linen Lace Thread, LC in red lettering size 60 W.&J.Knox,Ltd and
below that it says Kilbirnie, Scotland. I also have three skeins of Linen
thread that says the same on the label except it is size 20. I am not
completely sure where I got the thread from. I have an inkling but not sure.
Does anybody know anything about this thread like how old it is, and if it
would actually make some good bobbinlace. I wonder how much lace I could make
using the six skeins of this thread. There is no yardage on the label and the
thread looks to be like natural white,  not blinding white.  I wonder
if  I  would have enough to make a hankie edge or even
 do you think the thread would be appropriate for making a hankie edge?   What
do all of you think out there in Lacingland?


Wind To Thy Wings,
Sherry
celticdreamwe...@yahoo.com
http://celticdreamweaver.com/
http://celticdreamweave.blogspot.com/
Nata 616

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Re: [lace] linen thread on ebay

[Brenda Paternoster]

Oh right - I didn't scroll down far enough!

80 lea having 24,000 yards per pound is the equalvent of NeL 80/1 - 
which has the same amount of fibre as NeL 160/2.

NeL 80 means 80 hanks of 300 yards from one pound.  80 x 300 = 24,000.

It's difficult to tell from the photos it doesn't look to be that fine. 
 Apart from a small sample of Belgian linen 1000 the finest I have in 
my stash is 140/2, which appears to be about the same thickness when 
laid across my hand.


brenda

On 19 Sep 2005, at 16:31, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The one fine one was 80 lea, having 24,000 yards to the pound...  It 
was a single ply.  This is the one I was curious about!


Clay

-Original Message-
From: Brenda Paternoster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sep 18, 2005 6:34 PM
To: Clay Blackwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Jenny Brandis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lace@arachne.com
Subject: Re: [lace] linen thread on ebay

Hello Clay

None of these are particularly fine; even the 30 lea would only compare
to NeL 60/2, about 24 or 25 wraps/cm and the two thicker ones are
stated to be tow linen and therefore pretty slubby.  Linen tow is all
the bits and pieces left over after the best fibres have been used -
rather like spun silk, though of course linen fibres are rather coarser
than silk filament to start with.

The 12 lea has 4000 yards to the pound, equivalent to NeL 13.33/1
The 14 lea has 4200 yards to the pound, equivalent to NeL 14/1
The 20 lea has 6000 yards to the pound, equivalent yo NeL 20/1
The 30 lea has 9000 yards to the pound, equivalent to NeL 30/1

Brenda - who won't be bidding either!


On 18 Sep 2005, at 15:26, Clay Blackwell wrote:


With our talk about the books by Brenda Paternoster and Martina
Wolter-Kampmann still fresh in our minds, it's interesting to see 
these

cones of linen on eBay.  It looks like the cones were manufactured for
millwork - surely lacemakers would not have ordinarily bought so much
at
one time, and except for one of the cones, the linen appears rather
coarse.

But the one cone, which is described at "80 lea" in size, is said to
be a
single ply, having more than 24,000 yards to the pound.  That *sounds*
awfully fine - but the single-ply part worries me a little. I would
think
it would pull apart awfully easily and drive a lacemaker crazy.  In a
loom
it might be a dream, and the people bidding on it may be weavers.

Does anyone (Brenda?) know more about the properties of this thread?

Clay

Who doesn't plan to bid, btw...  ; )

Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




[Original Message]
From: Jenny Brandis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Date: 9/18/2005 7:13:13 PM
Subject: [lace] linen thread on ebay

 Hi there

I have just found the following ebay seller who is selling 100% irish
linen thread

http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZceol-deasQQhtZ-1

I will not be bidding because I cant see me using this much but
perhaps
one/some of you?

Jenny Brandis
Kununurra, Western Australia

If you learn from mistakes, why aren't I a genius?
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Brenda
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/




Brenda
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/

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Re: [lace] linen thread on ebay

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hello Clay

None of these are particularly fine; even the 30 lea would only compare 
to NeL 60/2, about 24 or 25 wraps/cm and the two thicker ones are 
stated to be tow linen and therefore pretty slubby.  Linen tow is all 
the bits and pieces left over after the best fibres have been used - 
rather like spun silk, though of course linen fibres are rather coarser 
than silk filament to start with.


The 12 lea has 4000 yards to the pound, equivalent to NeL 13.33/1
The 14 lea has 4200 yards to the pound, equivalent to NeL 14/1
The 20 lea has 6000 yards to the pound, equivalent yo NeL 20/1
The 30 lea has 9000 yards to the pound, equivalent to NeL 30/1

Brenda - who won't be bidding either!


On 18 Sep 2005, at 15:26, Clay Blackwell wrote:


With our talk about the books by Brenda Paternoster and Martina
Wolter-Kampmann still fresh in our minds, it's interesting to see these
cones of linen on eBay.  It looks like the cones were manufactured for
millwork - surely lacemakers would not have ordinarily bought so much 
at
one time, and except for one of the cones, the linen appears rather 
coarse.


But the one cone, which is described at "80 lea" in size, is said to 
be a

single ply, having more than 24,000 yards to the pound.  That *sounds*
awfully fine - but the single-ply part worries me a little. I would 
think
it would pull apart awfully easily and drive a lacemaker crazy.  In a 
loom

it might be a dream, and the people bidding on it may be weavers.

Does anyone (Brenda?) know more about the properties of this thread?

Clay

Who doesn't plan to bid, btw...  ; )

Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




[Original Message]
From: Jenny Brandis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Date: 9/18/2005 7:13:13 PM
Subject: [lace] linen thread on ebay

 Hi there

I have just found the following ebay seller who is selling 100% irish
linen thread

http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZceol-deasQQhtZ-1

I will not be bidding because I cant see me using this much but 
perhaps

one/some of you?

Jenny Brandis
Kununurra, Western Australia

If you learn from mistakes, why aren't I a genius?
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 
9/16/2005


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Brenda
http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/

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RE: [lace] linen thread on ebay

[Clay Blackwell]

With our talk about the books by Brenda Paternoster and Martina
Wolter-Kampmann still fresh in our minds, it's interesting to see these
cones of linen on eBay.  It looks like the cones were manufactured for
millwork - surely lacemakers would not have ordinarily bought so much at
one time, and except for one of the cones, the linen appears rather coarse.

But the one cone, which is described at "80 lea" in size, is said to be a
single ply, having more than 24,000 yards to the pound.  That *sounds*
awfully fine - but the single-ply part worries me a little. I would think
it would pull apart awfully easily and drive a lacemaker crazy.  In a loom
it might be a dream, and the people bidding on it may be weavers.  

Does anyone (Brenda?) know more about the properties of this thread?

Clay

Who doesn't plan to bid, btw...  ; )

Clay Blackwell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



> [Original Message]
> From: Jenny Brandis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Date: 9/18/2005 7:13:13 PM
> Subject: [lace] linen thread on ebay
>
>  Hi there
>
> I have just found the following ebay seller who is selling 100% irish
> linen thread
>
> http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZceol-deasQQhtZ-1
>
> I will not be bidding because I cant see me using this much but perhaps
> one/some of you?
>
> Jenny Brandis
> Kununurra, Western Australia
>
> If you learn from mistakes, why aren't I a genius?
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/2005
>
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line:
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[lace] linen thread on ebay

[Jenny Brandis]

 Hi there

I have just found the following ebay seller who is selling 100% irish
linen thread

http://search.ebay.com.au/_W0QQsassZceol-deasQQhtZ-1

I will not be bidding because I cant see me using this much but perhaps
one/some of you?

Jenny Brandis
Kununurra, Western Australia

If you learn from mistakes, why aren't I a genius?
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