Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]

Thank you very much!  I have saved chicago-aq.bst, and the attached 
version, modified as per


https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/324728/how-to-do-chicago-style-citation-where-author-last-name-first-name-appear-in-fu 



since the journal in question also wants full first names.

On 02/15/2018 04:20 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
2018-02-15 13:00 GMT+01:00 Jürgen Spitzmüller >:


Thank you.  That template answered a large share of my questions.

However, chicago,bst does not actually produce a bibliography
conforming to the demands of journals published by the U Chicago.

A specific issue is in the handling of the titles of
articles.  U Chicago wants these followed by a period and then
enclosed in quotation marks.  There is a standard response
found on the web for enclosing titles in quotation marks, but
it is not conforming, because the period is placed outside of
the marks.

Looking at the structure of chicago.bst, it seems that a fix
would certainly be possible but non-trivial.


Yes, the bst syntax is at best "interesting". But it's not that
hard. Please find attached a modified version that enquotes
article titles.


And here a version that moves the period inside the quote.

Jürgen


Jürgen


It appears that the most practical solution is still going to
be for me to punt to using the command-line programs.





%%% 
%%%  @BibTeX-style-file{
%%% author  = "Glenn Paulley",
%%% version = "4",
%%% date= "28 August 1992",
%%% time= "10:23:39 199",
%%% filename= "chicago.bst",
%%% address = "Data Structuring Group
%%%Department of Computer Science
%%%University of Waterloo
%%%Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
%%%N2L 3G1",
%%% telephone   = "(519) 885-1211",
%%% FAX = "(519) 885-1208",
%%% checksum= "26323 1654 5143 37417",
%%% email   = "gnpau...@bluebox.uwaterloo.ca",
%%% codetable   = "ISO/ASCII",
%%% keywords= "",
%%% supported   = "yes",
%%% abstract= "A BibTeX bibliography style that follows the
%%%`B' reference style of the 13th Edition of
%%%the Chicago Manual of Style. A detailed
%%%feature list is given below.",
%%% docstring   = "The checksum field above contains a CRC-16
%%%checksum as the first value, followed by the
%%%equivalent of the standard UNIX wc (word
%%%count) utility output of lines, words, and
%%%characters.  This is produced by Robert
%%%Solovay's checksum utility.",
%%%  }
%%% 
%
% "Chicago" BibTeX style, chicago.bst
% ===
%
% BibTeX `chicago' style file for BibTeX version 0.99c, LaTeX version 2.09
% Place it in a file called chicago.bst in the BibTeX search path.
% You need to include chicago.sty as a \documentstyle option.
% (Placing it in the same directory as the LaTeX document should also work.)
% This "chicago" style is based on newapa.bst (American Psych. Assoc.)
% found at ymir.claremont.edu.
%
%   Citation format: (author-last-name year)
% (author-last-name and author-last-name year)
% (author-last-name, author-last-name, and author-last-name year)
% (author-last-name et al. year)
% (author-last-name)
% author-last-name (year)
% (author-last-name and author-last-name)
% (author-last-name et al.)
% (year) or (year,year)
% year or year,year
%
%   Reference list ordering: alphabetical by author or whatever passes
%for author in the absence of one.
%
% This BibTeX style has support for abbreviated author lists and for
%year-only citations.  This is done by having the citations
%actually look like
%
%\citeauthoryear{full-author-info}{abbrev-author-info}{year}
%
% The LaTeX style has to have the following (or similar)
%
% \let\@internalcite\cite
% \def\fullcite{\def\citeauthoryear##1##2##3{##1, ##3}\@internalcite}
% \def\fullciteA{\def\citeauthoryear##1##2##3{##1}\@internalcite}
% \def\shortcite{\def\citeauthoryear##1##2##3{##2, ##3}\@internalcite}
% \def\shortciteA{\def\citeauthoryear##1##2##3{##2}\@internalcite}
% \def\citeyear{\def\citeauthoryear##1##2##3{##3}\@internalcite}
%
% These TeX macro definitions are found in chicago.sty. Additional
% commands to manipulate different components of a citation can be defined
% so that, for example, you can list author's names withou

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2018-02-15 13:00 GMT+01:00 Jürgen Spitzmüller :

> Thank you.  That template answered a large share of my questions.
>>
>> However, chicago,bst does not actually produce a bibliography conforming
>> to the demands of journals published by the U Chicago.
>>
>> A specific issue is in the handling of the titles of articles.  U Chicago
>> wants these followed by a period and then enclosed in quotation marks.
>> There is a standard response found on the web for enclosing titles in
>> quotation marks, but it is not conforming, because the period is placed
>> outside of the marks.
>>
>> Looking at the structure of chicago.bst, it seems that a fix would
>> certainly be possible but non-trivial.
>>
>
> Yes, the bst syntax is at best "interesting". But it's not that hard.
> Please find attached a modified version that enquotes article titles.
>

And here a version that moves the period inside the quote.

Jürgen


>
> Jürgen
>
>
>>
>> It appears that the most practical solution is still going to be for me
>> to punt to using the command-line programs.
>>
>
>


chicago-aq.bst
Description: Binary data

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

>
> Thank you.  That template answered a large share of my questions.
>
> However, chicago,bst does not actually produce a bibliography conforming
> to the demands of journals published by the U Chicago.
>
> A specific issue is in the handling of the titles of articles.  U Chicago
> wants these followed by a period and then enclosed in quotation marks.
> There is a standard response found on the web for enclosing titles in
> quotation marks, but it is not conforming, because the period is placed
> outside of the marks.
>
> Looking at the structure of chicago.bst, it seems that a fix would
> certainly be possible but non-trivial.
>

Yes, the bst syntax is at best "interesting". But it's not that hard.
Please find attached a modified version that enquotes article titles.

Jürgen


>
> It appears that the most practical solution is still going to be for me to
> punt to using the command-line programs.
>


chicago-aq.bst
Description: Binary data

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]

On 02/14/2018 11:38 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:


LyX supports Chicago via BibTeX as well.

Well, I'm not sure that's _really_ true.  But, if it is, then
explaining how LyX is got to do that would answer my query. 
Proposing an experimental process by which it is hoped that the

answer might be found would be another matter.

See attached example for using chicago.bst with natbib.


Thank you.  That template answered a large share of my questions.

However, chicago,bst does not actually produce a bibliography 
conforming to the demands of journals published by the U Chicago.


A specific issue is in the handling of the titles of articles.  U 
Chicago wants these followed by a period and then enclosed in 
quotation marks.  There is a standard response found on the web for 
enclosing titles in quotation marks, but it is not conforming, because 
the period is placed outside of the marks.


Looking at the structure of chicago.bst, it seems that a fix would 
certainly be possible but non-trivial.


It appears that the most practical solution is still going to be for 
me to punt to using the command-line programs.

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

Am 15.02.2018 um 09:49 schrieb Dr Eberhard Lisse:

Didn't work for me...

...but then I didn't have chicago.bst installed. :-)-O

Sometimes it is that simple...

el

On 2018-02-15 09:38 , Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

 LyX supports Chicago via BibTeX as well.


 Well, I'm not sure that's _really_ true.  But, if it is, then
 explaining how LyX is got to do that would answer my query.
 Proposing an experimental process by which it is hoped that the
 answer might be found would be another matter.


See attached example for using chicago.bst with natbib.

HTH
Jürgen

worked here
Wolfgang

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

Didn't work for me...

...but then I didn't have chicago.bst installed. :-)-O

Sometimes it is that simple...

el

On 2018-02-15 09:38 , Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> LyX supports Chicago via BibTeX as well.
> 
> 
> Well, I'm not sure that's _really_ true.  But, if it is, then
> explaining how LyX is got to do that would answer my query. 
> Proposing an experimental process by which it is hoped that the
> answer might be found would be another matter.
> 
> 
> See attached example for using chicago.bst with natbib.
> 
> HTH
> Jürgen

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

>
> LyX supports Chicago via BibTeX as well.
>>
>
> Well, I'm not sure that's _really_ true.  But, if it is, then explaining
> how LyX is got to do that would answer my query.  Proposing an experimental
> process by which it is hoped that the answer might be found would be
> another matter.
>

See attached example for using chicago.bst with natbib.

HTH
Jürgen


natbib-chicago.lyx
Description: application/lyx

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]

On 02/14/2018 09:58 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

2018-02-15 3:29 GMT+01:00 Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian:

I use BibTeX, because that's what LyX first embraced; and the
version of LyX ported for Fedora still does not support BibLaTeX. 
Switching to BibLaTeX would involve more time and effort than

playing with the .tex file, because I would need to revise the
bibliographic database. 


Fair enough. I was just asking.


I understood and understand.


If LyX is not going to support Chicago style except through
BibLaTeX, then trying to avoid wrestling with the .tex file of the
paper at hand is not reasonable; though it might well be
reasonable to migrate to BibLaTeX for future papers.

LyX supports Chicago via BibTeX as well.


Well, I'm not sure that's _really_ true.  But, if it is, then 
explaining how LyX is got to do that would answer my query.  Proposing 
an experimental process by which it is hoped that the answer might be 
found would be another matter.



An Example that produced the yowlings about conflicting
specifications would be a crufty non-Minimal non-Working Example. 
I wasn't seeking to get the yowling decyphered.  My actual query

stands with or without mentioning those yowlings; my point in
mentioning them was to preempt a suggestion that merely dropped
something into the preamble.

You wrote you get LaTeX errors when tweaking with the preamble. We can 
help you resolving this, but only with an example where we see what 
goes wrong.


It's not something to resolve.  Pursuing that issue is just crufty. 
If someone asked me how to perform a merge sort, and mentioned en 
passant that she'd tried something that didn't work, I wouldn't demand 
that we pore over her code; I'd show her how to write a merge sort. 
If someone didn't know how to parallel park, I wouldn't demand that he 
show me what he'd tried; I'd just walk him through the process.  If 
someone didn't know where to buy bread in my neighborhood, I would 
insist that we look in the stores in which he tried; I'd take him to 
the right store.


As I have said elsewhere: [1] The proper solution (if there is one) 
involves understanding the various settings in the Bibliography 
dialog.  I don't, and the documentation is severely wanting, but 
someone here might understand them well enough to know what to do. [2] 
There are simply too many variables here for it to be practical to 
effect what would amount to a multivariate optimization by 
experimenting with possible configurations and watching what pops-up 
in the logs or rendering.


If no one here understands the Bibliography settings well enough to 
answer my question, then I should just generate a .tex file and use 
other programs to process it.



Thank you for the .layout file.  I am in fact just playing with
the damn'd .tex file, and will finish that shortly after
completing a process of turning useful citations (which identify
chapters and sections) into lousy citations (which only offer page
numbers peculiar to the edition used).

It's very Microsoft-ish if LyX cannot simply be told to disable
the insertions and other processing associated with the
Bibliography configuration.

It can, in fact. But what _exactly_ are you trying to disable?


I keep saying exactly what I mean.  In this case, I wasn't referring 
merely to some _part_ of the insertions and other processing 
associated with the Bibliography configuration; and I used the word 
“simply” advisedly.

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

The notion that we can lower their levels of stress by subjecting people
to coërcion and to adjustive discrimination is remarkable and at best a
questionable and somewhat desperate stretch, rather than a profound
implication.

ROTFPMLHMSBAH

el

On 2018-02-15 07:32 , Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:>
> No, I have a really blunt way of responding to those who are
> condescending or dogmatic rather than at all helpful in response to
> requests for help.  If I'm drowning and you throw a horseshoe, don't
> expect gratitude.
>
> On 02/14/2018 09:13 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
>> You have a really funny way of asking for help.
>>
>> el
>>
>> — Sent from Dr Lisse’s iPad Mini
>>
>> On 15 Feb 2018, 01:30 +0200, Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian
>> , wrote:
>>>
>>> That is a signally absurd response.
>>>
>>> A minimal example would be an empty LyX document.  I could show you
>>> a screen-shot of an empty preamble, but you presumably know how that
>>> looks.  Likewise for the Bibliography dialog.
>>>
>>> I could go a bit further, and post a bibtex file, and a LyX document
>>> with a cite element and bibligraphy element, and ask “What do I do
>>> to get LyX to render that cite element and the bibliogrpahy in
>>> Chicago style?” But, again, you presumably know how bibtex files,
>>> cite elements, and bibliography elements look.
>>>
>>> So far, I've seen you post one willfully passive-aggressive response
>>> to one person, and then this foolish response to me.  This list
>>> begins to look to be a source of abuse, rather than constructive
>>> response.
>>>
>>> On 02/14/2018 03:11 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:

 As a general rule,

 provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with
 the shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.

 greetings, el

 On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:
> I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography
> I need to have rendered in Chicago style.  (Indeed, If I can get
> the sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal
> style, that would be great.)
>
> I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.
>
> When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about
> conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything through
> the preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how
> to disable the build-in Bibliography processing.

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2018-02-15 3:29 GMT+01:00 Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian 
:

> I use BibTeX, because that's what LyX first embraced; and the version of
> LyX ported for Fedora still does not support BibLaTeX.  Switching to
> BibLaTeX would involve more time and effort than playing with the .tex
> file, because I would need to revise the bibliographic database.


Fair enough. I was just asking.


> If LyX is not going to support Chicago style except through BibLaTeX, then
> trying to avoid wrestling with the .tex file of the paper at hand is not
> reasonable; though it might well be reasonable to migrate to BibLaTeX for
> future papers.
>

LyX supports Chicago via BibTeX as well.


>
> An Example that produced the yowlings about conflicting specifications
> would be a crufty non-Minimal non-Working Example.  I wasn't seeking to get
> the yowling decyphered.  My actual query stands with or without mentioning
> those yowlings; my point in mentioning them was to preempt a suggestion
> that merely dropped something into the preamble.
>

You wrote you get LaTeX errors when tweaking with the preamble. We can help
you resolving this, but only with an example where we see what goes wrong.


>
> Thank you for the .layout file.  I am in fact just playing with the damn'd
> .tex file, and will finish that shortly after completing a process of
> turning useful citations (which identify chapters and sections) into lousy
> citations (which only offer page numbers peculiar to the edition used).
>
> It's very Microsoft-ish if LyX cannot simply be told to disable the the
> insertions and other processing associated with the Bibliography
> configuration.


It can, in fact. But what _exactly_ are you trying to disable?

Jürgen

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]

No, I have a really blunt way of responding to those who are 
condescending or dogmatic rather than at all helpful in response to 
requests for help.  If I'm drowning and you throw a horseshoe, don't 
expect gratitude.


On 02/14/2018 09:13 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:

You have a really funny way of asking for help.

el

—
Sent from Dr Lisse’s iPad Mini

On 15 Feb 2018, 01:30 +0200, Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian 
, wrote:


That is a signally absurd response.

A minimal example would be an empty LyX document. I could show you a
screen-shot of an empty preamble, but you presumably know how that
looks. Likewise for the Bibliography dialog.

I could go a bit further, and post a bibtex file, and a LyX document
with a cite element and bibligraphy element, and ask “What do I do to
get LyX to render that cite element and the bibliogrpahy in Chicago
style?” But, again, you presumably know how bibtex files, cite
elements, and bibliography elements look.

So far, I've seen you post one willfully passive-aggressive response
to one person, and then this foolish response to me. This list begins
to look to be a source of abuse, rather than constructive response.

On 02/14/2018 03:11 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:


As a general rule,

provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with the
shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.

greetings, el

On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:

I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography I
need to have rendered in Chicago style. (Indeed, If I can get the
sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal style,
that would be great.)

I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.

When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about
conflicting specifications. If I have to do everything through the
preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to
disable the build-in Bibliography processing.

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]

On 02/14/2018 09:03 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 19:35:04 -0800
Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan  wrote:


On 02/14/2018 06:43 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:30:13 -0800
Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian  wrote:
   

I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and
bibliography I need to have rendered in Chicago style.  (Indeed,
If I can get the sections titles &c to conform automatically to
Chicago-journal style, that would be great.)

I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.

When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls
about conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything
through the preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like
to know how to disable the build-in Bibliography processing.
 
   

On 02/14/2018 03:11 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:


As a general rule,

provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with
the shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.

greetings, el

On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:


   

That is a signally absurd response.

A minimal example would be an empty LyX document.  I could show
you a screen-shot of an empty preamble, but you presumably know
how that looks.  Likewise for the Bibliography dialog.

I could go a bit further, and post a bibtex file, and a LyX
document with a cite element and bibligraphy element, and ask
“What do I do to get LyX to render that cite element and the
bibliogrpahy in Chicago style?”  But, again, you presumably know
how bibtex files, cite elements, and bibliography elements look.

So far, I've seen you post one willfully passive-aggressive
response to one person, and then this foolish response to me.
This list begins to look to be a source of abuse, rather than
constructive response.


I've rearranged the thread as bottom posted, so when somebody says
"this" is absurd, we all know what "this" refers to, and when
someone recommends a minimum working example, we all know what
situation a MWE is supposed to improve. If we're going to criticize
communication styles, let's go for clarity ourselves.

Anyway, regardless of Eberhard Lisse's tone, the Minimum Working
Example (MWE) is one of your most powerful tools for diagnosing LyX
problems. Remember, he said " ie the shortest LyX file with the
shortest BIB file that ***demonstrates the issue***." (emphasis
mine).

If the issue occurs on a blank document, start removing stuff from
the document properties. At some point you're going to be able to
toggle the problem on and off. Then, keep removing more stuff until
the only stuff left is stuff that will toggle the problem. This is
a true MWE.

Once you have your true MWE, either the cause will be obvious to you
and you'll fix it, or you can submit it and it will be obvious to
your fellow listmates, or the LyX developers will tell you "whoops,
that's a bug, let us fix that, and thank you so much for narrowing
it down for us."

The way I make MWEs is I keep dividing the remaining root cause
scope of the document in half and seeing whether the symptom is
still there, and continue until all that's left is maybe a sentence
plus what is necessary to produce the symptom. Likewise, I keep
simplifying the document preamble/properties until there's nothing
there that won't flip the symptom  if I remove/change it.

A year ago I has a problem in which I couldn't produce my books on
my new Void Linux computer if I used Century Schoolbook type, which
is a must. Even a Minimal Working Example would fail if I used
Century Schoolbook. So for LyX had I had to use a Ubuntu virtual
machine guest: Inconvenient!

Then one day a fellow author let me read his LyX produced book,
which obviously had Century Schoolbook type. I made an MWE of his,
and MWE of mine, compared, and the difference was obvious: He was
using the TeX Gyre Schola variant

SteveT


I explained exactly why the request for an MWE was absurd here.  You
didn't actually attend to the explanation.

I understand when and how to use an MWE.  This was not an occasion
for which one made any sense.

If someone asked you how to launch LyX, would you actually tell them
to provide an MWE?  You're about in that territory right now, and a
person who didn't know how to launch LyX wouldn't be as demonstrably
foolish as someone who asked for an MWE of that person, or as someone
who pontificated about the value of MWEs in the face of the present
problem.


Fine. You tried it.

"When I try to handl things by way of the preamble,
LyX yowls about conflicting specifications."

Next job: Find out the source of the yowls. I'd use an MWE to narrow it
down, but perhaps you have a different idea.


No, that is not the next job.

Experimenting with the checkboxes, menus, and textfields would be 
grossly impractical — there are too many possibilities (especially 
because of those damn'd textfields), and I would be better-off just 
punting to editing the .tex file and using other programs.  You're 
proposing what amounts to trial-and-error on a 

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 19:35:04 -0800
Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan  wrote:

> On 02/14/2018 06:43 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:30:13 -0800
> > Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian  wrote:
> >   
>  I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and
>  bibliography I need to have rendered in Chicago style.  (Indeed,
>  If I can get the sections titles &c to conform automatically to
>  Chicago-journal style, that would be great.)
> 
>  I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.
> 
>  When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls
>  about conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything
>  through the preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like
>  to know how to disable the build-in Bibliography processing.
>  
> >   
> >> On 02/14/2018 03:11 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:  
> >>>
> >>> As a general rule,
> >>>
> >>> provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with
> >>> the shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.
> >>>
> >>> greetings, el
> >>>
> >>> On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:  
> > 
> >   
> >> That is a signally absurd response.
> >>
> >> A minimal example would be an empty LyX document.  I could show
> >> you a screen-shot of an empty preamble, but you presumably know
> >> how that looks.  Likewise for the Bibliography dialog.
> >>
> >> I could go a bit further, and post a bibtex file, and a LyX
> >> document with a cite element and bibligraphy element, and ask
> >> “What do I do to get LyX to render that cite element and the
> >> bibliogrpahy in Chicago style?”  But, again, you presumably know
> >> how bibtex files, cite elements, and bibliography elements look.
> >>
> >> So far, I've seen you post one willfully passive-aggressive
> >> response to one person, and then this foolish response to me.
> >> This list begins to look to be a source of abuse, rather than
> >> constructive response.  
> > 
> > I've rearranged the thread as bottom posted, so when somebody says
> > "this" is absurd, we all know what "this" refers to, and when
> > someone recommends a minimum working example, we all know what
> > situation a MWE is supposed to improve. If we're going to criticize
> > communication styles, let's go for clarity ourselves.
> > 
> > Anyway, regardless of Eberhard Lisse's tone, the Minimum Working
> > Example (MWE) is one of your most powerful tools for diagnosing LyX
> > problems. Remember, he said " ie the shortest LyX file with the
> > shortest BIB file that ***demonstrates the issue***." (emphasis
> > mine).
> > 
> > If the issue occurs on a blank document, start removing stuff from
> > the document properties. At some point you're going to be able to
> > toggle the problem on and off. Then, keep removing more stuff until
> > the only stuff left is stuff that will toggle the problem. This is
> > a true MWE.
> > 
> > Once you have your true MWE, either the cause will be obvious to you
> > and you'll fix it, or you can submit it and it will be obvious to
> > your fellow listmates, or the LyX developers will tell you "whoops,
> > that's a bug, let us fix that, and thank you so much for narrowing
> > it down for us."
> > 
> > The way I make MWEs is I keep dividing the remaining root cause
> > scope of the document in half and seeing whether the symptom is
> > still there, and continue until all that's left is maybe a sentence
> > plus what is necessary to produce the symptom. Likewise, I keep
> > simplifying the document preamble/properties until there's nothing
> > there that won't flip the symptom  if I remove/change it.
> > 
> > A year ago I has a problem in which I couldn't produce my books on
> > my new Void Linux computer if I used Century Schoolbook type, which
> > is a must. Even a Minimal Working Example would fail if I used
> > Century Schoolbook. So for LyX had I had to use a Ubuntu virtual
> > machine guest: Inconvenient!
> > 
> > Then one day a fellow author let me read his LyX produced book,
> > which obviously had Century Schoolbook type. I made an MWE of his,
> > and MWE of mine, compared, and the difference was obvious: He was
> > using the TeX Gyre Schola variant
> > 
> > SteveT  
> 
> I explained exactly why the request for an MWE was absurd here.  You 
> didn't actually attend to the explanation.
> 
> I understand when and how to use an MWE.  This was not an occasion
> for which one made any sense.
> 
> If someone asked you how to launch LyX, would you actually tell them 
> to provide an MWE?  You're about in that territory right now, and a 
> person who didn't know how to launch LyX wouldn't be as demonstrably 
> foolish as someone who asked for an MWE of that person, or as someone 
> who pontificated about the value of MWEs in the face of the present 
> problem.

Fine. You tried it. 

"When I try to handl things by way of the preamble,
LyX yowls about conflicting specifications."

Next job: Find out the source of the yowls. I'd use an MWE to narrow i

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]

On 02/14/2018 06:43 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:30:13 -0800
Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian  wrote:


I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography
I need to have rendered in Chicago style.  (Indeed, If I can get
the sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal
style, that would be great.)

I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.

When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about
conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything through the
preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to
disable the build-in Bibliography processing.
  



On 02/14/2018 03:11 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:


As a general rule,

provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with the
shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.

greetings, el

On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:




That is a signally absurd response.

A minimal example would be an empty LyX document.  I could show you a
screen-shot of an empty preamble, but you presumably know how that
looks.  Likewise for the Bibliography dialog.

I could go a bit further, and post a bibtex file, and a LyX document
with a cite element and bibligraphy element, and ask “What do I do to
get LyX to render that cite element and the bibliogrpahy in Chicago
style?”  But, again, you presumably know how bibtex files, cite
elements, and bibliography elements look.

So far, I've seen you post one willfully passive-aggressive response
to one person, and then this foolish response to me.  This list
begins to look to be a source of abuse, rather than constructive
response.


I've rearranged the thread as bottom posted, so when somebody says
"this" is absurd, we all know what "this" refers to, and when someone
recommends a minimum working example, we all know what situation a MWE
is supposed to improve. If we're going to criticize communication
styles, let's go for clarity ourselves.

Anyway, regardless of Eberhard Lisse's tone, the Minimum Working
Example (MWE) is one of your most powerful tools for diagnosing LyX
problems. Remember, he said " ie the shortest LyX file with the
shortest BIB file that ***demonstrates the issue***." (emphasis mine).

If the issue occurs on a blank document, start removing stuff from the
document properties. At some point you're going to be able to toggle
the problem on and off. Then, keep removing more stuff until the only
stuff left is stuff that will toggle the problem. This is a true MWE.

Once you have your true MWE, either the cause will be obvious to you
and you'll fix it, or you can submit it and it will be obvious to your
fellow listmates, or the LyX developers will tell you "whoops, that's a
bug, let us fix that, and thank you so much for narrowing it down for
us."

The way I make MWEs is I keep dividing the remaining root cause
scope of the document in half and seeing whether the symptom is still
there, and continue until all that's left is maybe a sentence plus what
is necessary to produce the symptom. Likewise, I keep simplifying the
document preamble/properties until there's nothing there that won't
flip the symptom  if I remove/change it.

A year ago I has a problem in which I couldn't produce my books on my
new Void Linux computer if I used Century Schoolbook type, which is a
must. Even a Minimal Working Example would fail if I used Century
Schoolbook. So for LyX had I had to use a Ubuntu virtual machine guest:
Inconvenient!

Then one day a fellow author let me read his LyX produced book, which
obviously had Century Schoolbook type. I made an MWE of his, and MWE of
mine, compared, and the difference was obvious: He was using the TeX
Gyre Schola variant

SteveT


I explained exactly why the request for an MWE was absurd here.  You 
didn't actually attend to the explanation.


I understand when and how to use an MWE.  This was not an occasion for 
which one made any sense.


If someone asked you how to launch LyX, would you actually tell them 
to provide an MWE?  You're about in that territory right now, and a 
person who didn't know how to launch LyX wouldn't be as demonstrably 
foolish as someone who asked for an MWE of that person, or as someone 
who pontificated about the value of MWEs in the face of the present 
problem.

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:30:13 -0800
Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian  wrote:

> >> I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography
> >> I need to have rendered in Chicago style.  (Indeed, If I can get
> >> the sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal
> >> style, that would be great.)
> >>
> >> I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.
> >>
> >> When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about
> >> conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything through the
> >> preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to
> >> disable the build-in Bibliography processing.
> >>  

> On 02/14/2018 03:11 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:
> >
> > As a general rule,
> > 
> > provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with the
> > shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.
> > 
> > greetings, el
> > 
> > On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:  


> That is a signally absurd response.
> 
> A minimal example would be an empty LyX document.  I could show you a 
> screen-shot of an empty preamble, but you presumably know how that 
> looks.  Likewise for the Bibliography dialog.
> 
> I could go a bit further, and post a bibtex file, and a LyX document 
> with a cite element and bibligraphy element, and ask “What do I do to 
> get LyX to render that cite element and the bibliogrpahy in Chicago 
> style?”  But, again, you presumably know how bibtex files, cite 
> elements, and bibliography elements look.
> 
> So far, I've seen you post one willfully passive-aggressive response 
> to one person, and then this foolish response to me.  This list
> begins to look to be a source of abuse, rather than constructive
> response.

I've rearranged the thread as bottom posted, so when somebody says
"this" is absurd, we all know what "this" refers to, and when someone
recommends a minimum working example, we all know what situation a MWE
is supposed to improve. If we're going to criticize communication
styles, let's go for clarity ourselves.

Anyway, regardless of Eberhard Lisse's tone, the Minimum Working
Example (MWE) is one of your most powerful tools for diagnosing LyX
problems. Remember, he said " ie the shortest LyX file with the
shortest BIB file that ***demonstrates the issue***." (emphasis mine).

If the issue occurs on a blank document, start removing stuff from the
document properties. At some point you're going to be able to toggle
the problem on and off. Then, keep removing more stuff until the only
stuff left is stuff that will toggle the problem. This is a true MWE.

Once you have your true MWE, either the cause will be obvious to you
and you'll fix it, or you can submit it and it will be obvious to your
fellow listmates, or the LyX developers will tell you "whoops, that's a
bug, let us fix that, and thank you so much for narrowing it down for
us."

The way I make MWEs is I keep dividing the remaining root cause
scope of the document in half and seeing whether the symptom is still
there, and continue until all that's left is maybe a sentence plus what
is necessary to produce the symptom. Likewise, I keep simplifying the
document preamble/properties until there's nothing there that won't
flip the symptom  if I remove/change it.

A year ago I has a problem in which I couldn't produce my books on my
new Void Linux computer if I used Century Schoolbook type, which is a
must. Even a Minimal Working Example would fail if I used Century
Schoolbook. So for LyX had I had to use a Ubuntu virtual machine guest:
Inconvenient!

Then one day a fellow author let me read his LyX produced book, which
obviously had Century Schoolbook type. I made an MWE of his, and MWE of
mine, compared, and the difference was obvious: He was using the TeX
Gyre Schola variant

SteveT

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian]

I use BibTeX, because that's what LyX first embraced; and the version 
of LyX ported for Fedora still does not support BibLaTeX.  Switching 
to BibLaTeX would involve more time and effort than playing with the 
.tex file, because I would need to revise the bibliographic database. 
If LyX is not going to support Chicago style except through BibLaTeX, 
then trying to avoid wrestling with the .tex file of the paper at hand 
is not reasonable; though it might well be reasonable to migrate to 
BibLaTeX for future papers.


An Example that produced the yowlings about conflicting specifications 
would be a crufty non-Minimal non-Working Example.  I wasn't seeking 
to get the yowling decyphered.  My actual query stands with or without 
mentioning those yowlings; my point in mentioning them was to preempt 
a suggestion that merely dropped something into the preamble.


Thank you for the .layout file.  I am in fact just playing with the 
damn'd .tex file, and will finish that shortly after completing a 
process of turning useful citations (which identify chapters and 
sections) into lousy citations (which only offer page numbers peculiar 
to the edition used).


It's very Microsoft-ish if LyX cannot simply be told to disable the 
the insertions and other processing associated with the Bibliography 
configuration.


On 02/14/2018 05:08 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Dienstag, den 13.02.2018, 16:13 -0800 schrieb Daniel Kian Mc
Kiernan:

I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography I
need to have rendered in Chicago style. (Indeed, If I can get the
sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal
style,
that would be great.)


Do you use Biblatex or BibTeX for the bibliography? There's a decent
style for Biblatex (biblatex-chicago), but there are also (probably
less comprehensive) bst styles files for traditional BibTeX, "chicago"
and "achicago". The procedure for tweaking LyX depends on what you want
to use (so elisse's request for a MWE is actually not completely odd).

If you want to use Biblatex, consider testing LyX 2.3rc2. Although it's
considered "unstable", it provides proper support for Biblatex.

As for the document formatting, there is the "turabian-formatting"
package that has an implementation of the Chicago style (and also uses
biblatex-chicago). It ships a turabian-researchpaper class suitable for
papers.

I don't know a turabian-researchpaper.layout for LyX, but a simple
portmanteau file as the attached will probably do for a start.



I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.

When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about
conflicting specifications.


To help with this, we'd need to see a MWE, indeed.



If I have to do everything through the
preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to
disable the build-in Bibliography processing.


This depends on the selected approach.

HTH,
Jürgen

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Dienstag, den 13.02.2018, 16:13 -0800 schrieb Daniel Kian Mc
Kiernan:
> I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography I 
> need to have rendered in Chicago style. (Indeed, If I can get the 
> sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal
> style, 
> that would be great.)

Do you use Biblatex or BibTeX for the bibliography? There's a decent
style for Biblatex (biblatex-chicago), but there are also (probably
less comprehensive) bst styles files for traditional BibTeX, "chicago"
and "achicago". The procedure for tweaking LyX depends on what you want
to use (so elisse's request for a MWE is actually not completely odd).

If you want to use Biblatex, consider testing LyX 2.3rc2. Although it's
considered "unstable", it provides proper support for Biblatex.

As for the document formatting, there is the "turabian-formatting"
package that has an implementation of the Chicago style (and also uses
biblatex-chicago). It ships a turabian-researchpaper class suitable for
papers.

I don't know a turabian-researchpaper.layout for LyX, but a simple
portmanteau file as the attached will probably do for a start.

> 
> I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.
> 
> When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about 
> conflicting specifications.  

To help with this, we'd need to see a MWE, indeed.


> If I have to do everything through the 
> preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to 
> disable the build-in Bibliography processing.

This depends on the selected approach.

HTH,
Jürgen#% Do not delete the line below; configure depends on this
#  \DeclareLaTeXClass{Research Paper (Turabian)}
#  \DeclareCategory{Articles}
# turabian-researchpaper textclass definition file.
# Author : Juergen Spitzmueller 


Format 60

# Input general definitions
Input article.layout


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Mc Kiernan Daniel Kian]

That is a signally absurd response.

A minimal example would be an empty LyX document.  I could show you a 
screen-shot of an empty preamble, but you presumably know how that 
looks.  Likewise for the Bibliography dialog.


I could go a bit further, and post a bibtex file, and a LyX document 
with a cite element and bibligraphy element, and ask “What do I do to 
get LyX to render that cite element and the bibliogrpahy in Chicago 
style?”  But, again, you presumably know how bibtex files, cite 
elements, and bibliography elements look.


So far, I've seen you post one willfully passive-aggressive response 
to one person, and then this foolish response to me.  This list begins 
to look to be a source of abuse, rather than constructive response.


On 02/14/2018 03:11 AM, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote:


As a general rule,

provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with the
shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.

greetings, el

On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:

I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography I
need to have rendered in Chicago style.  (Indeed, If I can get the
sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal style,
that would be great.)

I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.

When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about
conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything through the
preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to
disable the build-in Bibliography processing.

Re: Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Dr Eberhard Lisse]

As a general rule,

provide a Minimal Working Example, ie the shortest LyX file with the
shortest BIB file that demonstrates the issue.

greetings, el

On 14/02/2018 02:13, Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan wrote:
> I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography I
> need to have rendered in Chicago style.  (Indeed, If I can get the
> sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal style,
> that would be great.)
> 
> I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.
> 
> When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about
> conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything through the
> preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to
> disable the build-in Bibliography processing.
> 

Chicago-Style Citations and Bibliography

[Daniel Kian Mc Kiernan]

I've an article, prepared in LyX, whose citations and bibliography I 
need to have rendered in Chicago style. (Indeed, If I can get the 
sections titles &c to conform automatically to Chicago-journal style, 
that would be great.)


I'd like to avoid a process of tweaking a .tex file.

When I try to handl things by way of the preamble, LyX yowls about 
conflicting specifications.  If I have to do everything through the 
preamble or by tweaking a .tex file, then I'd like to know how to 
disable the build-in Bibliography processing.