Hi dmb,
On Oct 2, 2013, at 6:25 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
dmb:
There are only two terms to understand here, static and Dynamic.
Marsha:
Only???
There is patterned value and there is unpatterned value. These are terms RMP
thought he could have used instead of
dmb,
On Oct 1, 2013, at 6:00 PM, david buchanan wrote:
The MOQ starts with the source of undifferentiated perception itself as the
ultimate reality. The very first differentiation is probably `change`. The
second one may be `before and after`. From this sense of `before and after`
Marsha said to dmb:
And please, the first sentence of my definition of static patterns of value
stats Static patterns of value are repetitive processes (multiple events),
conditionally co-dependent, impermanent and ever-changing, that pragmatically
tend to persist and change within a stable,
In order to understand what is being said here, one should try and imagine
all things, objects of experience and oneself, the one who is experiencing,
as just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is something out
there. We have only experiences of colours, shapes, tactile data,
Hi David Morey and All,
IMHO Pirsig suggests there are indefinable, definable perceptions. To have
a flow of perceptions accepts a metaphysical DQ/SQ reality. Logic follows
observable reality. DQ/SQ metaphysics embodies logic, opening a door for
the perception of a logic of indefinable
dmb,
On Oct 2, 2013, at 12:20 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
Marsha said to dmb:
And please, the first sentence of my definition of static patterns of value
stats Static patterns of value are repetitive processes (multiple events),
conditionally co-dependent,
Marsha asked dmb:
Where did you get the idea you could apply the concept of 'change' to Dynamic
Quality when RMP insists it should remain concept-free?
dmb says:
Again, the idea that DQ is the ever-changing flux of experience is well
supported by the evidence. And like said, that description
dmb,
Try to understand 'undifferentiated'!
Marsha says:
Static patterns of value ... pragmatically tend to persist and change within a
stable, predictable pattern.
On Sep 30, 2013, at 2:20 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
dmb:
What reason does anyone have to think that
The MOQ starts with the source of undifferentiated perception itself as the
ultimate reality. The very first differentiation is probably `change`. The
second one may be `before and after`. From this sense of `before and after`
emerge more complex concepts of time.
(letter from ROBERT M.
Hi Joe,
Dynamic Quality is not 'ever-changing', but indeterminate: not definable, not
divisible, not bounded, not patterned, not dualistic, not this, not that, not
(conceptually) knowable, though it can be directly experienced and known like
one knows the tea is hot when one is drinking it.
Hi MarshaV and All,
There is a word that keeps rattling my head, evolution. Does evolution
limit the not divisible, not bounded, not patterned, not dualistic, not
this, not that negation only scenario?
Joe
On 9/28/13 2:50 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
not divisible, not bounded, not
is explained by not this-not that too,
how not this-not that explains how some things are better than others.
Good question joe.
-Ron
From: Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net
To: moq_disc...@moqtalk.org
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] static patterns of value
Hi MarshaV and All,
The existence of Dynamic quality is not negated in being indefinably
knowable. To say dynamic quality is an intellectual construct with only
intentional existence denies existence to dynamic as a metaphysical
principle leaving it as logical reality only, not real oogflump.
Marsha said to Andre:
Yes, I get that, and I am not using [ unpatterned ] as nothing there or as
all is quiet; I am using it as stated in the rest of the quote.
Marsha said to dmb:
Dynamic Quality is not knowable, not definable, not divisible, not bounded, not
patterned, not dualistic, not
dmb,
On Sep 27, 2013, at 3:21 PM, david buchanan wrote:
Marsha said to Andre:
Yes, I get that, and I am not using [ unpatterned ] as nothing there or as
all is quiet; I am using it as stated in the rest of the quote.
Marsha said to dmb:
Dynamic Quality is not knowable, not definable,
Marsha's hypothetical example of how these patterns pragmatically exist
relative to an individual's static pattern of life history:
John Smith, in August 2013, purchases LILA from a bookstore and reads it
having never read ZAMM and never before having heard of Robert M. Pirsig and
the MoQ.
dmb,
First I didn't mention a comparison between the John Smith's and Paul Turner's
opinion concerning the MoQ. Naturally Paul Turner's understanding would be
more informed. I was addressing only one point. You can label John Smith a
novice and Paul Turner an expert, but it doesn't negate
Correction: I've already told you that I find the cure/disease metaphor
inappropriate, so that makes no impression.
dmb,
First I didn't mention a comparison between the John Smith's and Paul Turner's
opinion concerning the MoQ. Naturally Paul Turner's understanding would be
more
Marsha said to dmb:
First I didn't mention a comparison between the John Smith's and Paul Turner's
opinion concerning the MoQ. Naturally Paul Turner's understanding would be more
informed. I was addressing only one point...
dmb says:
How in the world can you deny comparing Smith's and
dmb,
'Opinion' and 'understanding' are not synonyms in my dictionary. I was
addressing only one point in my original statement, that you can label John
Smith a novice and Paul Turner an expert, but it doesn't negate that the
difference between their understanding is based on their different
Marsha said to Andre:
Yes, I get that, and I am not using [ unpatterned ] as nothing there or as
all is quiet; I am using it as stated in the rest of the quote. As Ant
suggested to David Morey (DQ/sq as WATER/ice - Apr 11, 2013) it's sometimes
helpful to replace the term Dynamic Quality with
Hi David B and All,
DQ/SQ! It seems that in reality there is indefinable/definable. In being
married they are separated only in language for communication since you
can't have one without the other.
Joe
On 9/26/13 1:31 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
Then ask yourself
dmb,
On Sep 26, 2013, at 4:31 PM, david buchanan wrote:
Marsha said to Andre:
Yes, I get that, and I am not using [ unpatterned ] as nothing there or as
all is quiet; I am using it as stated in the rest of the quote. As Ant
suggested to David Morey (DQ/sq as WATER/ice - Apr 11, 2013)
Greetings,
[MD] static patterns of value
On Sep 20, 2013, at 1:28 AM, MarshaV wrote:
My definition of static patterns of value are repetitive processes (multiple
events), conditionally co-dependent, impermanent and ever-changing, that
pragmatically tend to persist and change within
Greetings,
Marsha:
Further, these patterns pragmatically exist relative to an individual's
static pattern of life history.
Here's an example...
John Smith, in August 2013, purchases LILA from a bookstore and reads it having
never read ZAMM and never before having heard of Robert M.
Marsha to Andre:
Yes, I get that, and I am not using as nothing there or as all is
quiet; I am using it as stated in the rest of the quote. As Ant
suggested to David Morey (DQ/sq as WATER/ice - Apr 11, 2013) it's
sometimes helpful to replace the term Dynamic Quality with the the
term
Marsha to dmb:
Let's see how RMP describes the MoQ's first and most important
distinction: In the Pirsig-McWatt Letters 1993-98 PDF, you will see that
Pirsig suggests (in a 1997 letter) that patterned and unpatterned
were terms he could have used instead of static and Dynamic.
So, I have DQ as
Andre,
On Sep 24, 2013, at 3:34 AM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote:
Marsha to dmb:
Let's see how RMP describes the MoQ's first and most important distinction:
In the Pirsig-McWatt Letters 1993-98 PDF, you will see that Pirsig suggests
(in a 1997 letter) that patterned and
Also, Andre, Paul Turner uses the terms patterned and unpatterned quite
naturally in his paper 'The Two Contexts of the Metaphysics of Quality',
published June 2013.
On Sep 24, 2013, at 4:16 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Andre,
On Sep 24, 2013, at 3:34 AM, Andre Broersen
Ron,
I am not going to make a defense against unfounded assumptions, or, for that
matter, projections, misrepresentations, sarcasm, irony, parody or insults. I
am looking for a clear definition of what dmb means by 'solipsistically
subjective,' and actual clearly stated reasons for thinking
On Sep 24, 2013, at 11:36 AM, X Acto wrote:
Dmb criticized:
And the final claim is extremely objectionable too. Patterns don't exist
relative to an individual's life history. That claim is just silly
solipsistic subjectivism. Static pattens are socially constructed over the
course of
dmb said to D. Thomas:
Like Marsha, you are confusing static concepts with dynamic reality. You are
blurring the first and most important distinction in the MOQ.
D. Thomas replied:
If there were only one static level you might be right that I'm confusing
static concepts with dynamic reality.
Hi Arlo and all
Finally!!..an answer to one of my questions!! and without even one
mental health insult!! (extra points) . hurrayy! i sense some
moral, social and intellectual improvement here.
[Arlo]
Pirsig did not author an 'interpretation of moq'.
Eddo:
When I read MOQ, I am
On 9/22/13 1:45 PM, David Buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
DMB said:
...Why wouldn't we want to be accurate about Pirsig's meaning on this point or
any other aspect of the MOQ? Why is it a problem to think that static patterns
can provide order and stability without being eternally
[Eddo]
In other words, MOQ = written Pirsig experience = MOQ . Am I right? This makes
MOQ more a personal Brand than a philosophical framework.
[Arlo]
I think what you're pointing to is along the lines of saying pragamtism and
Peirce, or idealism and Hegel. The general umbrella metaphysical
Hi MarshaV and All,
IMHO Static definable, Dynamic indefinable, seem to embody concepts
describing evolving reality. I see Evolution as EX VOLUNTAS. Out of will.
EX VOLUNTAS, seems to provide a reasonable source for order in change.
Change requires some difference. The reality for Evolution
dmb,
Can a glass of water be half empty and half full at the same time?
Instead of focusing on the aspect of my definition (isolate) that is
ever-changing, you could focus on the aspect of my definition (isolate) that
states that static quality tends to persist and change within a stable
Hi All
Andre:
Agree. Marsha is NOT discussing Pirsig's MoQ. She is presenting her own
interpretation based on her experience and 'empirical experience'
Eddo asks:
Are the good guys, on this forum, only discussing pirsig's interpretation
of moq? And does, any other person who is considering to
more clear, asking Horse, Am i right?
2013/9/22 Eddo Rats edd...@gmail.com
Hi All
Andre:
Agree. Marsha is NOT discussing Pirsig's MoQ. She is presenting her own
interpretation based on her experience and 'empirical experience'
Eddo asks:
Are the good guys, on this forum, only
Marsha said to dmb:
Instead of focusing on the aspect of my definition (isolate) that is
ever-changing, you could focus on the aspect of my definition (isolate) that
states that static quality tends to persist and change within a stable and
predictable pattern.
dmb says:
Okay, let's put the
On 9/21/13 2:25 PM, David Buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
DMB
Why wouldn't we want to be accurate about Pirsig's meaning on this point or
any other aspect of the MOQ? Why is it a problem to think that static patterns
can provide order and stability without being eternally fixed and
DMB said:
...Why wouldn't we want to be accurate about Pirsig's meaning on this point or
any other aspect of the MOQ? Why is it a problem to think that static patterns
can provide order and stability without being eternally fixed and forever
frozen?
Dave Thomas replied:
No the real problem is,
dmb,
On Sep 22, 2013, at 12:47 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
Marsha said to dmb:
Instead of focusing on the aspect of my definition (isolate) that is
ever-changing, you could focus on the aspect of my definition (isolate) that
states that static quality tends to
[Eddo asks:]
Are the good guys, on this forum, only discussing pirsig's interpretation of
moq?
[Arlo]
Pirsig did not author an 'interpretation of moq'. Pirsig's metaphysics are, if
anything, his interpretation of *experience*. We are here to discuss Pirsig's
ideas, yes. You can disagree, to
Marsha to dmb:
Try to present an actual argument and present actual evidence to support
your claim. Where are the actual quotes made by me that put me in the
category of a nihilistic relativism or a solipsistic subjectivism?
Andre:
By your insistence that all is emptiness (a la Nagarjuna).
On 9/21/13 4:46 AM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote:
Andre:
By your insistence that all is emptiness (a la Nagarjuna). You use this
to dismiss any attempt to correct your confused understanding of
Pirsig's MoQ.
Secondly, you use your own experience to dismiss any attempt at
Marsha to dmb:
...Where are the actual quotes made by me that put me in the category of a
nihilistic relativism or a solipsistic subjectivism?
Andre replied:
By your insistence that all is emptiness (a la Nagarjuna). You use this to
dismiss any attempt to correct your confused understanding
Andre said to Marsha:
By your insistence that all is emptiness (a la Nagarjuna). You use this to
dismiss any attempt to correct your confused understanding of Pirsig's MoQ.
Secondly, you use your own experience to dismiss any attempt at correcting your
confused understanding of Pirsig's MoQ.
Hi David B and All,
Logos Logic. The unchangeable changeable! Logos is determined by
definition! Logic evolves creating new definitions SOM, DQ/SQ!
Joe
On 9/21/13 12:25 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
To say that static patterns are ever-changing is like saying our
This little essay [Marsha's] confuses and conflates the two central terms of
the MOQ. Because static quality has been described in various ways as dynamic,
it is full of contradictory nonsense. Where Pirsig says that static patterns
provide the stability upon which further evolution can
dmb,
On Sep 20, 2013, at 2:00 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
You'll never the understand the MOQ or Buddhism unless you iron this out.
Like Arlo said, if you can't grasp the static/Dynamic split, you can't grasp
the MOQ. Period.
Dynamic Quality is unpatterned value,
dmb,
On Sep 20, 2013, at 2:00 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
RMP does NOT say that the differences in a static pattern of value is due to
an individual's static pattern history.
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance left one enormous metaphysical
problem unanswered
My definition of static patterns of value are repetitive processes (multiple
events), conditionally co-dependent, impermanent and ever-changing, that
pragmatically tend to persist and change within a stable, predictable pattern.
Within the MoQ, these patterns are morally categorized into a
On Aug 19, 2013, at 10:55 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
djh:
Such an understanding cannot be captured in words by changing the meaning of
things from static to ever-changing.
Marsha:
I have not changed the word static to ever-changing.
Marsha:
I have not changed the name of
Greetings,
Static patterns of value are repetitive processes, conditionally co-dependent,
impermanent and ever-changing, that pragmatically tend to persist and change
within a stable, predictable pattern. Within the MoQ, these patterns are
morally categorized into a four-level,
Dear Marsha
Will you ever be capable of changing your mind?
J A
12 feb 2013 kl. 11:52 skrev MarshaV val...@att.net:
Greetings,
Static patterns of value are repetitive processes, conditionally
co-dependent, impermanent and ever-changing, that pragmatically tend to
persist and change
What mind?
On Feb 12, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jan Anders Andersson janander...@telia.com wrote:
Dear Marsha
Will you ever be capable of changing your mind?
J A
12 feb 2013 kl. 11:52 skrev MarshaV val...@att.net:
Greetings,
Static patterns of value are repetitive processes,
Oh, I see. Ure hooked by Mindlessness!
:-)
12 feb 2013 kl. 12:08 skrev MarshaV val...@att.net:
What mind?
On Feb 12, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jan Anders Andersson janander...@telia.com
wrote:
Dear Marsha
Will you ever be capable of changing your mind?
J A
12 feb 2013 kl. 11:52
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