Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Is the cable 46cm (IDE STANDARD SAYS: IDE CABLE 46cm BUT EVERYWHERE I SEE THESE HORRIBLE LONG FLATCABLES grrr.. :) ) I use a 120 cm long cable now and it works most of the time. Sometimes I get errors like when starting up the TED editor, it says 'Sorry only MSX-2' or when I exit a program, it says 'Wrong version of COMMAND2.COM'. But after rebooting, everything goes fine again. A cable of 46cm would be too short, because I have my harddisk and CD-rom in a case with their own power supply. BTW, wouldn't it also be too short in a big tower PC??? I've been thinking about building my MSX and peripherals into a big tower case... Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hello, the following was message was never sent (got stuck in my unsent messages folder), but maybe it contains some useful things. So, here it is: -- Hi, some short notes: * only 6 driveletters can be assigned to the IDEinterface=6*32MB To use the other partitions, use the IDEPAR.COM utility to (temporarily) reach the other partitions. The partitions that are used at startup can be set with the IDEFDISK program (enable/disable partitions) If you want to use Cdrom, make sure a maximum of 5 hd partitions are enabled, so you've got 1 driveletter left for the CDROM * don't use old PAR utilities, only use IDEPAR.COM * 31 partitions is the maximum and won't be extended: in future FAT16 partitions will be possible, so there's no need for 31 partitions... A big problem is also that the CDrom drive is not found. I've put the switch on the back of the drive on 'Slave' but the IDE interface just says it can't find a slave check power supply and check harddisk jumpersettings (I believe Seagate HD have a separate jumpersetting for masteronly and masterwithslave) Is the flatcable well connected Is the cable 46cm (IDE STANDARD SAYS: IDE CABLE 46cm BUT EVERYWHERE I SEE THESE HORRIBLE LONG FLATCABLES grrr.. :) ) and IDECDEX.COM aborts with the error message 'IDE driveletter not found. This error occurs if: - no CDROM is detected at startup - a CDROM is detected, but the 6 driveletters are used by the HD (use IDEFDISK to enable only 5 or less partitions) first make sure that the CDROM is detected at startup. It might be very useful to see if the CDROM is functioning ok when it is connected as the master without a harddisk...) greetz, Jon MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
I like to reply to the SCSI problem. I think that new harddisk has a MSDOS partition on it. I had the same problem with my second hand harddisks and even ZIP disks. (Sometimes I like to boot from ZIP instead of a harddisk) Solution is to remove all partitions on the drive/disks with a PC and then connecting them to a MSX and boot with diskette to prepare the partitions. Greetings, Hapzee MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
] Well on the drives I had the terminators were most of the time unnamed, and ] since none of these old drives have the docs with them... I had to try it ] out. And the terminator was a crime too (which set the SCSI ID and which is ] of the terminator). Docs can be found on the web sites of the drive manufacturers. We didn't have internet at that time. And I didn't know how to use it either... ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Erik, After switching DTR/RTS/DSR on in Telix (on the PC) I could reach speeds of up to 38400bps. So at least the problem isn't the interface. if you install the driver (DRIVER.COM, shipped with RS232C interface) you can use the Hitech-C extensions you have made a long time ago... It's still the same? Great! Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
] Well on the drives I had the terminators were most of the time unnamed, and ] since none of these old drives have the docs with them... I had to try it ] out. And the terminator was a crime too (which set the SCSI ID and which is ] of the terminator). Docs can be found on the web sites of the drive manufacturers. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
No, DirectCD does not produce ISO9660 cd's. Only when drivers are present (windows) for Directcd you can use them. On MSX-DOS (and real MS-DOS) only ISO9660 (closed session) is usable, so not Joliet, not multisession, not DirectCD. And Disc at Once is also not the solution to every problem. With DAO you can produce any cd type you want. Physical reading problems with CDR and CDRW are due to the cdrom drive itself IF the driver is not the cause. Older drives simpy were not made for those discs (higher laser strength and firmware adjustments for example) Have a look at http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/ for a comprehensive explanation of all this. -Original Message- From: Pierre Gielen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 February 2000 23:34 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2 Only discs burned in Disk At Once-mode (DOA) work everywhere. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble reading CD-R's made with DirectCD. I can only read those from Windows 98, not from DOS or MSXDOS(2)!!! Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hello Pierre, BTW, I was wondering if the RS232C interface also has the standard MSX BIOS extensions on board??? I'd like to write some compatible interface routines for Hitech C... The Sunrise RS232C interface does NOT have a BIOS. A real BIOS will not help much because speeds above 9600 baud are only possible with a turbo-R in this way. But if you install the driver (DRIVER.COM, shipped with RS232C interface) you can use the Hitech-C extensions you have made a long time ago... (It was foslib or something like that) Greetings from Erik Maas MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Only discs burned in Disk At Once-mode (DOA) work everywhere. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble reading CD-R's made with DirectCD. I can only read those from Windows 98, not from DOS or MSXDOS(2)!!! PC drives also can't handle DirectCD, just like MSX. However, the developers of DirectCD think they are smart, so they have added a little auto-executing driver to the CD which CAN be read normally, and which enables DirectCD support. But this only works on IBM-compatible computers with Windows 9x... With another operating system (Linux), or on other computers (Mac, MSX), it will not work without specifically written drivers. By the way, if you copy a CD for someone else, I hope you don't use DirectCD for that, do you??? If you do, you shouldn't... It's very nasty. Use the burning-software for that, preferrably in DAO mode. Same goes for CDs which you want to use with your MSX (which, as stated above, doesn't have drivers for DirectCD). ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Van: Erik Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: vrijdag 4 februari 2000 0:03 Onderwerp: Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2 Hi Erik, BTW this serial link is very slow. Are you sure hardware handshake is implemented in your null-modem cable, and that the software on the PC uses it? I'll check it this evening... Otherwise, it might happen that buffers overflow when using Y-modem-G-batch. With normal Y-modem-batch there should be no problem. Well, there are problems with all Xmodem and Ymodem protocols AND with the external Zmodem receive protocol. The error message Telix (on the PC) gives when the baudrate exceeds 9600 bps is: connection lost. If I have time and feel happy to do it, I might write some kind of file-commander over a serial link sometime. That would be great! BTW, I was wondering if the RS232C interface also has the standard MSX BIOS extensions on board??? I'd like to write some compatible interface routines for Hitech C... Bye, Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Do you have a cd-rewriter in your pc? and is the ide-cdrom player able to read rewritable cd's? Then the answer is simple... Use a rewritable cd... (I do so with the megascsi and novaxis) Or use a once-writable CD. The transfer is probably a one-time thing, right? And it's always a good to have a backup. Also possible! I used rewritable because I know for sure that these CD's I now have do need a lot of cleanup...A lot of stuff is spread on two cd's. I clean up the files on pc and then write a new cd. Bij using a rewritable I can use the same cd again... But rewritable CDs are only supported on newer CD drives (32x and faster)... Older drives most of the time don't support them, including our computer's CD 16x drive, the laptop of my father's work, the CD-drive of my uncle (6x), the CD-drive of a friend of mine (24x), the CD-drive of another friend of mine (4x), the CD-drive of another friend of mine, I'm getting repetative, don't I? That's why a CD-recordable is preferred I think. It's only a one-time thing, you've got a backup (since you will probably erase a CD-RW, which is 10x as expensive as a CD-R), most CD-recorders can burn CD-R's faster than CD-RW's (or not at all); ours for example is a 4x2x6 burner, and a friend of mine has a 4x burner (so no ReWriting nor reading!). And, as in fact already said, it is highly likely that you will waste alot of time burning your CD-RW because there is quite a chance your CD-Rom won't support it. Oh, and did I already mention CD-R's are so cheap you could as well call them 'free'??? ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
And yes, I know there also is the Novaxis Interface, which is also fast, however only on "adapted" 7MHz circuits, and it is also very hard to find. The Novaxis is fast on 3.5MHz too, compared with BERT: DOSSCAN reported 108kB/s on 3.5MHz. Ha! Compared with BERT... Compared with BERT everything is fast. Although using diskcache (LUNA) with Bert can help a great deal. Since I have 8MHz (thanks Erik!), DOSSCAN reports 245kB/s. But then your 8MHz circuit only slows down to 3.5MHz when there is VDP I/O... Most 7MHz circuits slow down at EVERY I/O access (incl. mine). always had difficulties with SCSI-drives, things like IDs and terminators, and most of the time it's not indicated very well... (at least it wasn't at my drives, and an article I read about it also said there were alot of differences between them). This is not what I experience: terminators are no problem, since almost all drives have buitin termination. And the ID setup is easy. It's always the same, you only have to know the ID of your SCSI interface and the one of your drive. Well on the drives I had the terminators were most of the time unnamed, and since none of these old drives have the docs with them... I had to try it out. And the terminator was a crime too (which set the SCSI ID and which is of the terminator). Maybe you haven't had bad experiences with this, but I really have. Twice! So to my experience IDE drives are a lot easier to set up. Someone should write a FAQ about it, so that I can put it in The Ultimate MSX FAQ. What do you mean? How To Use SCSI Drives??? ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
This should not happen at all Are you sure hardware handshake is implemented in your null-modem cable, and that the software on the PC uses it? Otherwise, it might happen that buffers overflow when using Y-modem-G-batch. With normal Y-modem-batch there should be no problem. If there still is a problem, another terminal program on the PC could help, or maybe there is a problem in the RS232C interface design. (my fault I guess) Well it works fine with my 33k6 modem... But that's not the same as a null-modem cable ofcourse. If I have time and feel happy to do it, I might write some kind of file-commander over a serial link sometime. But since I do not have much time, it could be this project will never start at all... Ey come on Erik! Go for it! ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Laurens Holst wrote: But rewritable CDs are only supported on newer CD drives (32x and faster)... Older drives most of the time don't support them, including our computer's CD 16x drive, the laptop of my father's work, the CD-drive of my uncle (6x), the CD-drive of a friend of mine (24x), the CD-drive of another friend of mine (4x), the CD-drive of another friend of mine, I'm getting repetative, don't I? Its weird for me. I had a computer that I bought in 1994, it had a CDROM drive so slow (4x), and it has supported my CD-RW discs without problems. By the way, I ever thought that has no difference (after the recording) between CD, CD-R (R=Recordable) and CD-RW (RW=Rewritable). Am I wrong? Regards Alex Mitsio Sato MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hi, Alex Mitsio Sato wrote: By the way, I ever thought that has no difference (after the recording) between CD, CD-R (R=Recordable) and CD-RW (RW=Rewritable). Am I wrong? Yes :-) CD and CD-R are equivalent - apart from the fact that CD uses 'pits and bumps' for its bits and CD-R 'burnt and unburnt spots'. Some old CD drives may not be able to tell the difference between the burnt and non-burnt spots on some CD-R's (esp. the silver/blue ones) and will thus have trouble reading these. Modern drives use different (stronger?) lasers and optical stuff to be able to read (and write) CD-R and CD-RW. CD-RW is a different story. You can use it just like a CD-R. Then you can write a lot of stuff to the CD-RW, finish it and all data can be accessed _read-only_ from that moment onward. When you want ot put new data on the disk, you'll have to wipe clean the complete CD-RW (!) and you end up with a blank CD-RW, which you can re-use. But, a CD-RW can also be formatted in such a way so it can be accessed read/write - just like a hard disk (directCD). _This_ format is not compatible with the CD(-R) format, so a directCD formatted CD-RW can not be read in a normal CD-rom drive. HTH, Eric MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Yes :-) CD and CD-R are equivalent - apart from the fact that CD uses 'pits and bumps' for its bits and CD-R 'burnt and unburnt spots'. Some old CD drives may not be able to tell the difference between the burnt and non-burnt spots on some CD-R's (esp. the silver/blue ones) and will thus have trouble reading these. Modern drives use different (stronger?) lasers and optical stuff to be able to read (and write) CD-R and CD-RW. CD-RW is a different story. You can use it just like a CD-R. Then you can write a lot of stuff to the CD-RW, finish it and all data can be accessed _read-only_ from that moment onward. When you want ot put new data on the disk, you'll have to wipe clean the complete CD-RW (!) and you end up with a blank CD-RW, which you can re-use. But, a CD-RW can also be formatted in such a way so it can be accessed read/write - just like a hard disk (directCD). _This_ format is not compatible with the CD(-R) format, so a directCD formatted CD-RW can not be read in a normal CD-rom drive. I was not talking about directCD-formatted CD-RWs. You think there are no differences in hardware, but there are, see my other mail. ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
But rewritable CDs are only supported on newer CD drives (32x and faster)... Older drives most of the time don't support them, including our computer's CD 16x drive, the laptop of my father's work, the CD-drive of my uncle (6x), the CD-drive of a friend of mine (24x), the CD-drive of another friend of mine (4x), the CD-drive of another friend of mine, I'm getting repetative, don't I? Its weird for me. I had a computer that I bought in 1994, it had a CDROM drive so slow (4x), and it has supported my CD-RW discs without problems. Well ofcourse there are exceptions. By the way, I ever thought that has no difference (after the recording) between CD, CD-R (R=Recordable) and CD-RW (RW=Rewritable). Am I wrong? Yes. All drives support normal CDs. Not all CD-R's are supported because of the way they are being written to. Only discs burned in Disk At Once-mode (DOA) work everywhere. There are also other systems, like multisession CDs, but that isn't supported by older drives. I once burned an audio-CD for a friend of mine in the standard mode of Adaptec Easy CD Copier (which is not DAO, unfortunately), and he could play the CD on his own stereo, but not on his parent's stereo. The CD-RW's give problems on alot of drives because the layer which is written on is less reflective, which results in reading problems on alot of drives. The same goes for CD-R's (but much less often, it differs a bit per color. Blue/green is the best readable and therefor gives the least problems). Apparently, the laser in your drive was strong enough to be able to read it. -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hi, I was not talking about directCD-formatted CD-RWs. But I was :-) I was talking about differences between CD, CD-R and CD-RW, bacause Alex Mitsio Sato assumed CD, CD-R and CD-RW were equal after they have been written to, which is not the case. But I omitted the DAO story, true. Sew me ;-) You think there are no differences in hardware, I _do_ know that there are differences in hardware (there must be, otherwise anyone could burn a CD-RW in his own audio CD player :-D)) ObMSX: I don't have any experience in using CD stuff on my MSX. I have a SCSI setup at home. Could I just take any SCSI CD-ROM player, connect it and read any CD-ROM? Or is it SCSI i/f dependent? My SCSI i/f is an old HSH one, but contains a fairly new Novaxis ROM... Eric MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Only discs burned in Disk At Once-mode (DOA) work everywhere. Maybe that's why I'm having trouble reading CD-R's made with DirectCD. I can only read those from Windows 98, not from DOS or MSXDOS(2)!!! Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Try to put your partitionized MSX HD into your PC. Maybe the PC can read the partition table made by IDEFDISK, then copying is simple and fast. It's easier now to burn a CD with all MSX files on them and then maybe use backhd.com or xcopy. Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
a MSXDOS2 backup program that can use it to copy files including the directory structure The program is: XCOPY XCOPY can copy files and directory structures from disk to disk, not through a serial link. Or if it can: please tell me how to use it. Remember I have to copy from PC to MSX, connected through a null modem cable. BTW this serial link is very slow. File transfers using Erix on the MSX side and Telix on the PC are aborted if the baudrate exceeds 9600 bps. This seems strange, considering that there is a fast 16550 UART on both sides. The MSX is running on 7,16 MHz but switching back to 3,58 MHz doesn't help, so it probably isn't a timing problem. Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
An option to get around the directory structure problem: compress the data using an archiver that stores the directory structure. Are there packers/unpackers for MSX that use path names??? Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
And yes, I know there also is the Novaxis Interface, which is also fast, however only on "adapted" 7MHz circuits, and it is also very hard to find. The Novaxis is fast on 3.5MHz too, compared with BERT: DOSSCAN reported 108kB/s on 3.5MHz. Since I have 8MHz (thanks Erik!), DOSSCAN reports 245kB/s. always had difficulties with SCSI-drives, things like IDs and terminators, and most of the time it's not indicated very well... (at least it wasn't at my drives, and an article I read about it also said there were alot of differences between them). This is not what I experience: terminators are no problem, since almost all drives have buitin termination. And the ID setup is easy. It's always the same, you only have to know the ID of your SCSI interface and the one of your drive. Someone should write a FAQ about it, so that I can put it in The ULtimate MSX FAQ. Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my home page at http://bilderbeek.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hello It's easier now to burn a CD with all MSX files on them and then maybe use backhd.com or xcopy. Pierre As I also said. But don't forget to reset the read-only atribute... greetings -+-+-+-+-+-+- Maico Arts [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+-+-+-+-+-+- MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hello Do you have a cd-rewriter in your pc? and is the ide-cdrom player able to read rewritable cd's? Then the answer is simple... Use a rewritable cd... (I do so with the megascsi and novaxis) Or use a once-writable CD. The transfer is probably a one-time thing, right? And it's always a good to have a backup. Also possible! I used rewritable because I know for sure that these CD's I now have do need a lot of cleanup...A lot of stuff is spread on two cd's. I clean up the files on pc and then write a new cd. Bij using a rewritable I can use the same cd again... greetings -+-+-+-+-+-+- Maico Arts [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+-+-+-+-+-+- MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hello Pierre, BTW this serial link is very slow. File transfers using Erix on the MSX side and Telix on the PC are aborted if the baudrate exceeds 9600 bps. This seems strange, considering that there is a fast 16550 UART on both sides. The MSX is running on 7,16 MHz but switching back to 3,58 MHz doesn't help, so it probably isn't a timing problem. This should not happen at all Are you sure hardware handshake is implemented in your null-modem cable, and that the software on the PC uses it? Otherwise, it might happen that buffers overflow when using Y-modem-G-batch. With normal Y-modem-batch there should be no problem. If there still is a problem, another terminal program on the PC could help, or maybe there is a problem in the RS232C interface design. (my fault I guess) If I have time and feel happy to do it, I might write some kind of file-commander over a serial link sometime. But since I do not have much time, it could be this project will never start at all... Greetings from Erik Maas MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Besides, SCSI is more reliable then IDE anyway. I had a SCSI back in the early nineties. It was noisy and much(!) slower than the Sunrise IDE that I have now and I it wasn't as reliable as I would have wanted it to be. BTW. I succeeded in getting the CDrom drive to work yesterday. Seems the problem was a jumper setting on the harddisk. Now the next step is copying all my old MSX files from the PC to the MSX. I don't suppose there is a program that can copy everything, including the directory structure, through a serial link...? Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Pierre, Now the next step is copying all my old MSX files from the PC to the MSX. I don't suppose there is a program that can copy everything, including the directory structure, through a serial link...? RicBit has made progframs to transfer data between PC and MSX using a Joynet cable (the first transfer and runs ROM files, and the second plays WAV files). This programs are free and with small changes you can use it to transfer data to your MSX. - - - Now a question. I'm interested in buy one (or two) SUNRISE IDE cartridges but I not found price information in www.msx.ch page. Anyone know the IDE's price and how I can buy? --- Giovanni Nunes [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
RicBit has made progframs to transfer data between PC and MSX using a Joynet cable (the first transfer and runs ROM files, and the second plays WAV files). This programs are free and with small changes you can use it to transfer data to your MSX. How fast is it? I'll have to copy about 30 Megabytes. How long would that take? BTW I already have a RS232 link between PC and MSX, I was just wondering if there was a MSXDOS2 backup program that can use it to copy files including the directory structure. Now a question. I'm interested in buy one (or two) SUNRISE IDE cartridges but I not found price information in www.msx.ch page. Anyone know the IDE's price and how I can buy? I recently bought a combined IDE/RS232C cartridge for dfl. 125,-, which is about 57 euros Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
BTW I already have a RS232 link between PC and MSX, I was just wondering if there was a MSXDOS2 backup program that can use it to copy files including the directory structure. What do you think about XCOPY.COM? Grtjs, Manuel ((m)ICQ UIN 41947405) PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my home page at http://bilderbeek.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
If you have RS 232, can't you use a Kermit terminal ? BTW I already have a RS232 link between PC and MSX, I was just wondering if there was a MSXDOS2 backup program that can use it to copy files including the directory structure. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hi BTW I already have a RS232 link between PC and MSX, I was just wondering if there was a MSXDOS2 backup program that can use it to copy files including the directory structure The program is: XCOPY Now a question. I'm interested in buy one (or two) SUNRISE IDE cartridges but I not found price information in www.msx.ch page. Anyone know the IDE's price and how I can buy? I recently bought a combined IDE/RS232C cartridge for dfl. 125,-, which is about 57 euros Pierre You must send verry quickly a order for IDE, the IDE is soon solde-out, I think the normal IDE is solde-out. Gretz Peter MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Now the next step is copying all my old MSX files from the PC to the MSX. I don't suppose there is a program that can copy everything, including the directory structure, through a serial link...? Try to put your partitionized MSX HD into your PC. Maybe the PC can read the partition table made by IDEFDISK, then copying is simple and fast. If it works with IDE i don't know 'cause I don't have one, But with a BERT-FDISK3.0 formatted SCSI HD it does. Grtz, Siebe. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hello Now the next step is copying all my old MSX files from the PC to the MSX. I don't suppose there is a program that can copy everything, including the directory structure, through a serial link...? Do you have a cd-rewriter in your pc? and is the ide-cdrom player able to read rewritable cd's? Then the answer is simple... Use a rewritable cd... (I do so with the megascsi and novaxis) greetings -+-+-+-+-+-+- Maico Arts [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+-+-+-+-+-+- MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Now the next step is copying all my old MSX files from the PC to the MSX. I don't suppose there is a program that can copy everything, including the directory structure, through a serial link...? Try to put your partitionized MSX HD into your PC. Maybe the PC can read the partition table made by IDEFDISK, then copying is simple and fast. If it works with IDE i don't know 'cause I don't have one, But with a BERT-FDISK3.0 formatted SCSI HD it does. IDE can also be connected to a PC. That's the reason why it only supports 32 MB partitions yet (for PC compatibility). However, under Windows '98, set the drives to read-only mode, because otherwise it will make changes to your partition table etc... pretty nasty. In a DOS-environment (not a DOS box!) however, you can simply copy files to your MSX. And about the double XCOPY suggestion, somehow I don't think it will be very useful when transferring files over a serial link. Somehow... ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Now a question. I'm interested in buy one (or two) SUNRISE IDE cartridges but I not found price information in www.msx.ch page. Anyone know the IDE's price and how I can buy? --- Giovanni Nunes [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now, the new pricliste is on our homepage "www.msx.ch" The Sunrise for MSX Team MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
In the current version of IDEFDISK, 32 MB isn't only the MAXIMUM size, but also the ONLY size. This means I can only use 5x32MB=160MB of my harddisk? Not that I need that much, but is seems a waste not to use the rest of the 500MB. Yesterday, I succeeded in getting 5 partitions to work on my harddisk (as A: to E:), thus leaving F: and G: for the floppy drives and H: for the MSXDOS2 ramdisk. IDEFDISK does try to make 16 partitions but MSXDOS 2 apparently doesn't use them. Besides that, the documentation of IDECDEX says it can't work if there are more than 6 active partitions.I also can't use a ramdisk under MSXDOS2 if the driveletter H: is already in use. The problem with the CDrom drive remains. It's an old Mitsumi 4x speed which has always worked correcty in a PC, but the IDE interface just doesn't detect it as a slave device. Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hi, This means I can only use 5x32MB=160MB of my harddisk? Not that I need that much, but is seems a waste not to use the rest of the 500MB. you can use the rest of the disk. Just define a lot of 32MB partitions and use 'MAP.COM' to 'attach' a drive letter to a certain partition. (Note: there's also a 'MAP.COM' to make DOS1 programs run in DOS2 - don't mix 'em up ;-)) The problem with the CDrom drive remains. It's an old Mitsumi 4x speed which has always worked correcty in a PC, but the IDE interface just doesn't detect it as a slave device. Did you jumper the HD to 'master', not 'stand-alone'? Ciao, Eric MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
Hello This means I can only use 5x32MB=160MB of my harddisk? Not that I need that much, but is seems a waste not to use the rest of the 500MB. you can use the rest of the disk. Just define a lot of 32MB partitions and use 'MAP.COM' to 'attach' a drive letter to a certain partition. (Note: there's also a 'MAP.COM' to make DOS1 programs run in DOS2 - don't mix 'em up ;-)) You are right here about how to do it, but if I am not mistaken, on IDE you should have to use a little program called PAR or PARID. greetings -+-+-+-+-+-+- Maico Arts [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+-+-+-+-+-+- MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
In the current version of IDEFDISK, 32 MB isn't only the MAXIMUM size, but also the ONLY size. This means I can only use 5x32MB=160MB of my harddisk? Not that I need that much, but is seems a waste not to use the rest of the 500MB. No, no... you can only use INT(500 / 32) * 32 = 15 * 32 = 480 MB. There is a maximum of 32 partitions, so the effective maximum of the IDE-interface is 1GB. You probably won't need more, and if you do then you can ask Jon de Schrijder if he wants to make a BIOS-update which supports 32 partitions... Yesterday, I succeeded in getting 5 partitions to work on my harddisk (as A: to E:), thus leaving F: and G: for the floppy drives and H: for the MSXDOS2 ramdisk. IDEFDISK does try to make 16 partitions but MSXDOS 2 apparently doesn't use them. Besides that, the documentation of IDECDEX says it can't work if there are more than 6 active partitions.I also can't use a ramdisk under MSXDOS2 if the driveletter H: is already in use. I think it tries to make 15 partitions, not 16 (see the formula above). The first 6 will be mapped drive-letters A: to F:, and you can access the other partitions by using the (IDE)PAR command, to assign another partition to a drive. By the way, in theory support for drive-letters H: shouldn't be too hard I think... It can at least be implemented in the Dos-functions quite easily. And concerning problems with older DiskROMs (i.e. the ROM of the diskdrive), I think those drive-names can be filtered out and renamed to an old DiskROM-compatible driveletter. Or, to my opinion a better solution, the partitions beyond the 6th partitions should get a drive-assignment after H:, leaving a gap at G: and H: for older diskROMs. Or even better: make the drive-assignment entirely modifyable, so people can for example choose to set the diskdrives to A: and B: (like on PC), and boot from the C:. Or use F: as drive-A, G: as drive-B and H: as RamDisk. Something which is now impossible, which is very annoying because when I create a RamDisk now it replaces my drive-B, which then can't be accessed anymore. The problem with the CDrom drive remains. It's an old Mitsumi 4x speed which has always worked correcty in a PC, but the IDE interface just doesn't detect it as a slave device. You are sure it is IDE? ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit the Datax homepage at http://datax.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
The problem with the CDrom drive remains. It's an old Mitsumi 4x speed which has always worked correcty in a PC, but the IDE interface just doesn't detect it as a slave device. You are sure it is IDE? Yes, since it worked with standard ATAPI drivers on the PC. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
] BTW: I succeeded in installing Linux on my PC, so why shouldn't I be able to ] get a harddisk and CDrom working under MSXDOS2??? Modern linux installations are userfriendly ;-) -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
] Or even better: make the drive-assignment entirely modifyable, so people can ] for example choose to set the diskdrives to A: and B: (like on PC), and boot ] from the C:. Or use F: as drive-A, G: as drive-B and H: as RamDisk. ] Something which is now impossible, which is very annoying because when I ] create a RamDisk now it replaces my drive-B, which then can't be accessed ] anymore. Or replace your IDE stuff with the MEGASCSI interface, which has this kind of functionality. Besides, SCSI is more reliable then IDE anyway. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Alex Wulms/XelaSoft - MSX of anders NIX - Linux 4 ever See my homepage for info on the *** XSA *** format http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2
With a 12 bit FAT, 32Mb is indeed the maximum size of a partition. So getting access to more partitions requires more drive letters, each mapped to a partition. As far as i can remember max of 6 (A,B,C,D,E,F) and the floppy drives become G and H, a total of 8. Why your IDE combination does not allow that, is a mistery. I suspect not all drives and certainly not all cdroms brands are welcomed by the IDE interface. The problems with IDEFDISK point in that direction.Maybe Jon can step in here, the whole IDE current version is his work, very much appreciated. -Original Message- From: Pierre Gielen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 31 January 2000 20:49 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Harddisk and CDrom drive under MSXDOS2 I've finally managed to connect a harddisk and CDrom player to my MSX2 using the Sunrise ATA-IDE/RS232c interface, but I'm experiencing some problems. The first is that only 32MB of the harddisk is detected. I suppose that's the maximum partition size? How should I know? This is basic information that should have been published in some sort of 'getting started' manual. With IDEFDISK.COM, I've tried to make other partitions but didn't succeed. The documentation of IDEFDISK just isn't enough to make it clear how to use it. Can anybody tell me what I should do to use the whole 500MB of the drive (a Seagate ST3660A)? A big problem is also that the CDrom drive is not found. I've put the switch on the back of the drive on 'Slave' but the IDE interface just says it can't find a slave and IDECDEX.COM aborts with the error message 'IDE driveletter not found. What gives? BTW: I succeeded in installing Linux on my PC, so why shouldn't I be able to get a harddisk and CDrom working under MSXDOS2??? Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the body (not subject) "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes :-) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
