Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[John R. Culleton]

On Thursday 02 June 2005 18:25, Hartmut Henkel wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, John R. Culleton wrote:
> > (K.I.S.S. = "Keep it simple silly.)
>
> wasn't the 2nd S. "stupid"?
>
> Regards, Hartmut
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A late response:

Yes, but I try to be nice. I never know whose help I may need
someday :<)
-- 
John Culleton
Able Indexing and Typesetting


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Re: [NTG-context] fleurons - reprise

[John R. Culleton]

n Tuesday 12 July 2005 08:22 am, Joachim Trinkwitz wrote:
> Am 31.05.2005 um 23:48 schrieb Adam Lindsay:
> > Yeah, I picked up the Fleurons of Hope recently, and have been
> > thinking
> > of interesting ways to use it in ConTeXt.
>
> Has someone looked at the free downloadable Web-O-Mints (both
> TrueType and Postscript: http://www.galapagosdesign.com/download/
> index.html) or Fleurons.ttf (http://www.grsites.com/modperl/
> fontview.cgi?dir=f&fn=FLEUR_TT), both very attractive lokking sets of
> traditional ornaments and border pieces?
>
> Regards,
> joachim
Use WeBoMints all the time, especially character '4' for a
section divider or chapter end decoration.
-- 
John Culleton
Books with answers to marketing and publishing questions:
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf

Book coaches, consultants and packagers:
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/packagers.pdf


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Re: [NTG-context] fleurons - reprise

[Joachim Trinkwitz]

Am 31.05.2005 um 23:48 schrieb Adam Lindsay:

Yeah, I picked up the Fleurons of Hope recently, and have been  
thinking

of interesting ways to use it in ConTeXt.


Has someone looked at the free downloadable Web-O-Mints (both  
TrueType and Postscript: http://www.galapagosdesign.com/download/ 
index.html) or Fleurons.ttf (http://www.grsites.com/modperl/ 
fontview.cgi?dir=f&fn=FLEUR_TT), both very attractive lokking sets of  
traditional ornaments and border pieces?


Regards,
joachim

--
Dr. Joachim Trinkwitz   E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Germanistisches Seminar   Tel.: 0228-737565
der Universität Bonn Fax: 0228-737479
Am Hof 1d, 53113 Bonn   www.germanistik.uni-bonn.de

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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Stuart Jansen]

On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 00:25 +0200, Hartmut Henkel wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, John R. Culleton wrote:
> 
> > (K.I.S.S. = "Keep it simple silly.)
> 
> wasn't the 2nd S. "stupid"?

I always thought it was "Stuart". ;-)

-- 
Stuart Jansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Guru Labs, L.C.


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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Hartmut Henkel]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, John R. Culleton wrote:

> (K.I.S.S. = "Keep it simple silly.)

wasn't the 2nd S. "stupid"?

Regards, Hartmut
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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[John R. Culleton]

On Wednesday 01 June 2005 11:53 pm, Hans Hagen wrote:
> Staszek Wawrykiewicz wrote:
> > Why? Anybody is free to make tfm files, as afm files are
> > always available for _that_ set of urw fonts.
>
> the problem is that there is a bunch of context users out there
> who think (are being told, whatever) that they should use the
> provided ones instead of generating them by texfont or afm2tfm
> (so they want to use the presumably present ones and not
> generate them by texfont, which is ok for me; but unfortunately
> they are not always there; and then they try the ps ones, which
> are only there for ec and not for texnansi and then ... and
> then ...)
>
> well, i give up on fonts ... maybe some day i just put metric
> files in the context zip (ec texnansi qx), why should i care
> about those few extra bytes
>

I use only the 8r encoding because I write/typeset in (American)
English and I need special characters like the copyright symbol.
the registered symbol, the trademark (tm) symbol and so on. Some
of these are not available in other encodings, or at least I
cannot find them. I understand that Europeans prefer other
encodings with good reason but 8r needs to remain in the scheme
of things IMO. 

I not only use plain tex, pdftex, Context etc. in my own work I
advertise these Open Source solutions as effective alternatives
to e.g., InDesign. To sell the system to new users requires a
K.I.S.S. approach. 

Is there a problem in Context with making the URW fonts the
default and then just aliasing the Adobe names to the URW versions?
The more we can hide these details the better. 

Font handling is the great Achilles heel of all flavors of TeX,
as we all know. Since Context is (relatively) new if we can
jigger things around so that the K.I.S.S. principle is adhered
to then selling the concept to new users will be easier. Too
many people in the printing world have horrid memories of LaTeX
from their college days or other earlier experience.

(K.I.S.S. = "Keep it simple silly.) 

> thanks for your patience

And thanks for Context!

-- 

John Culleton




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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Staszek Wawrykiewicz]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005, Hans Hagen wrote:

> Staszek Wawrykiewicz wrote:
> >   AFM and PFM files are supplied here for the sake of
> >   completeness only.  They are normally not required for use
> >   with TeX.

> this is not true, you need the afm's when you use them to make graphics
> in other progs that will then be used by tex; also, you need them in
> order to generate metrics for encodings other than teh shipped ones

Hans, I cited readme by Walter and tried to explain: there's no ready
tfm metrics for _those_ urw. Existing ones were generated for older, not 
so nice urw fonts.

> > In fact, nobody knows how the *old* mess with tfm, vf etc. fits
> > to more *new* urw pfb which are of better quality then the older ones. 
> > Anyway both distributions cannot be mixed. Not to say about packaging, etc.
> > So I introduced "urw35vf" (#3416) which contains all (historical) stuff
> > for those using urw fonts directly (.vf, .tfm, .fd, .sty files).
> > Everybody has freedom using them from TL. Thomas removed such stuff
> > from teTeX as simply garbage.
> 
> he's free to do that but it sounds strange and dangerous to me

Why? Anybody is free to make tfm files, as afm files are always 
available for _that_ set of urw fonts.
 
-- 
Staszek Wawrykiewicz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Staszek Wawrykiewicz]

On Tue, 31 May 2005, Karl Berry wrote:

> this differes per year; i keep changing these names and always lag
> behind one tex live version
>  
> TL has always distributed both pzdr.tfm and uzdr.tfm.  I don't have an
> easy way to check the situation in teTeX.

teTeX has only pzdr.tfm. See below for reasons.
 
> one of the previous tex lives someone moved the urw's to some 35vf
> folder, after that things went bad (got lost and such); i discussed
> this with Staszek and he reverted it;
> 
> Starting in TL 2003, uzdr.tfm was indeed put under urw35vf instead of
> just urw.  I do not know/remember why, or who did it (though we could
> check the logs), or what "got lost" as a result.  It is also still the
> case in the current sources, so I also don't know what you mean by
> Staszek "reverted it".  Staszek, what did you do?

I can explain it once again. In 2003 all that urw mess was hopefully
cleaned on CTAN and then on TL. Discussion started on 6 june and on 
24 july that's me, who cleaned it for TL. The *base* 35 urw fonts (only
afm and pfm/pfb) were prepared *after* all that urw tfm, vf etc. support
files were made.

>From README.base35
  TeX systems can use these fonts as drop-in replacements for
  Adobe's PostScript Base fonts, which are not free.  No
  particular TeX metrics, virtual fonts or macro files are
  provided for URW's base fonts.  They are to be used with the
  same support files as Adobe's originals, i.e., with the
  files of the PSNFSS collection.

  AFM and PFM files are supplied here for the sake of
  completeness only.  They are normally not required for use
  with TeX.

In fact, nobody knows how the *old* mess with tfm, vf etc. fits
to more *new* urw pfb which are of better quality then the older ones. 
Anyway both distributions cannot be mixed. Not to say about packaging, etc.
So I introduced "urw35vf" (#3416) which contains all (historical) stuff
for those using urw fonts directly (.vf, .tfm, .fd, .sty files).
Everybody has freedom using them from TL. Thomas removed such stuff
from teTeX as simply garbage.

> Meanwhile, the afm and pfb are under just urw/.  It seems odd, though I
> can imagine how it could happen.

??? Everything is OK: fonts/afm/urw/ and fonts/type1/urw/

> Clearly the URW fonts are not 100% identical to the Adobe fonts, but in
> practice we have to accept the URW Type 1's under the p* names, because
> the p* names are what most documents have historically used.  We can't
> suddenly make those documents unusable, that would be disastrous.
 
> For that matter, the Adobe fonts themselves have changed over the
> years.  Nothing is perfect.

Right.
 
> but context (users) expect the whole set of urw (afm & pfb) to be
> present because they generate other encodings and such;
> 
> uzdr.afm and uzdr.pfb are both in the current TL sources, and always
> have been.  I know of no reason or suggestion to delete them.

They are as well present in teTeX. 

>   i think that we need to get rid of the urw mappings in the aliases file
> 
> I agree.  I have now deleted the aliases file altogether from the TL
> sources.  We'll see how that flies.  I don't know if that will change
> anything wrt gwTeX, though.

Ahh, I see! aliases could cause problems. Thanks for deleting that file.

Best,

-- 
Staszek Wawrykiewicz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Hans Hagen]

Staszek Wawrykiewicz wrote:

Why? Anybody is free to make tfm files, as afm files are always 
available for _that_ set of urw fonts.


the problem is that there is a bunch of context users out there who think (are 
being told, whatever) that they shoul duse the provided ones instead of 
generating them by texfont or afm2tfm (so they want to use the presumably 
present ones and not generate them by texfont, which is ok for me; but 
unfortunately they are not always there; and then they try the ps ones, which 
are only there for ec an dnot fo rtexnansi and then ... and then ...)


well, i give up on fonts ... maybe some day i just put metric files in the 
context zip (ec texnansi qx), why should i care about those few extra bytes


thanks for your patience

Hans

ps. i have no problems with the minimal context distribution since in that one i 
use prefixed names


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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Hans Hagen]

Staszek Wawrykiewicz wrote:


  AFM and PFM files are supplied here for the sake of
  completeness only.  They are normally not required for use
  with TeX.


this is not true, you need the afm's when you use them to make graphics in other 
progs that will then be used by tex; also, you need them in order to generate 
metrics for encodings other than teh shipped ones



In fact, nobody knows how the *old* mess with tfm, vf etc. fits
to more *new* urw pfb which are of better quality then the older ones. 
Anyway both distributions cannot be mixed. Not to say about packaging, etc.

So I introduced "urw35vf" (#3416) which contains all (historical) stuff
for those using urw fonts directly (.vf, .tfm, .fd, .sty files).
Everybody has freedom using them from TL. Thomas removed such stuff
from teTeX as simply garbage.


he's free to do that but it sounds strange and dangerous to me


Meanwhile, the afm and pfb are under just urw/.  It seems odd, though I
can imagine how it could happen.



??? Everything is OK: fonts/afm/urw/ and fonts/type1/urw/



Clearly the URW fonts are not 100% identical to the Adobe fonts, but in
practice we have to accept the URW Type 1's under the p* names, because
the p* names are what most documents have historically used.  We can't
suddenly make those documents unusable, that would be disastrous.


indeed, so we should ship duplicates


For that matter, the Adobe fonts themselves have changed over the
years.  Nothing is perfect.
 
Right.


sure, but we can try to reach robustness by redundancy


   but context (users) expect the whole set of urw (afm & pfb) to be
   present because they generate other encodings and such;

uzdr.afm and uzdr.pfb are both in the current TL sources, and always
have been.  I know of no reason or suggestion to delete them.
 
They are as well present in teTeX. 
 

 i think that we need to get rid of the urw mappings in the aliases file

I agree.  I have now deleted the aliases file altogether from the TL
sources.  We'll see how that flies.  I don't know if that will change
anything wrt gwTeX, though.
 
Ahh, I see! aliases could cause problems. Thanks for deleting that file.


-)

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Karl Berry]

this differes per year; i keep changing these names and always lag
behind one tex live version
 
TL has always distributed both pzdr.tfm and uzdr.tfm.  I don't have an
easy way to check the situation in teTeX.

because i find out afterwards

Well, that's what testing is for, it's not like anyone was keeping it a
secret.  There was 4+ months of time for it last year.  Anyway ...

one of the previous tex lives someone moved the urw's to some 35vf
folder, after that things went bad (got lost and such); i discussed
this with Staszek and he reverted it;

Starting in TL 2003, uzdr.tfm was indeed put under urw35vf instead of
just urw.  I do not know/remember why, or who did it (though we could
check the logs), or what "got lost" as a result.  It is also still the
case in the current sources, so I also don't know what you mean by
Staszek "reverted it".  Staszek, what did you do?

Meanwhile, the afm and pfb are under just urw/.  It seems odd, though I
can imagine how it could happen.

this kind of things has to do with the everlasting some urw fonts
can be exchanged with some built in ps fonts as claimed by walter
cum suis (which is not true, ask nelson -)

Clearly the URW fonts are not 100% identical to the Adobe fonts, but in
practice we have to accept the URW Type 1's under the p* names, because
the p* names are what most documents have historically used.  We can't
suddenly make those documents unusable, that would be disastrous.

For that matter, the Adobe fonts themselves have changed over the
years.  Nothing is perfect.

i have no problem if this introduces a mess for latex users 

Well, I do!

but context (users) expect the whole set of urw (afm & pfb) to be
present because they generate other encodings and such;

uzdr.afm and uzdr.pfb are both in the current TL sources, and always
have been.  I know of no reason or suggestion to delete them.

i think that we need to get rid of the urw mappings in the aliases file

I agree.  I have now deleted the aliases file altogether from the TL
sources.  We'll see how that flies.  I don't know if that will change
anything wrt gwTeX, though.

k
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Re: [NTG-context] fleurons - reprise

[Adam Lindsay]

Keith McKay said this at Tue, 31 May 2005 20:16:19 +0100:

>Thanks to Hans and Adam for the helpful advice.  The code from Adam looked a
>bit daunting to me as a learner at first but when I changed [pzdr] to [uzdr]
>it worked fine.

Oh good. The available fonts and metrics (sadly) vary with every
distribution, so that's a hard thing to get right.

Sorry the code was dense. If you want it broken down and explained, let
me know.

>  I attach the output from Adam's code which also includes
>his query about symb-run in a previous message. Hope this is of use.  From
>the further discussion between them I hope I didn't open a can of worms.

The attachment was probably too big for the list--if you want another
pair of eyes on it, feel free to send it off-list.

>One last question.  I did a search on the web for fleuron fonts and came up
>with a few interesting hits.  

Yeah, I picked up the Fleurons of Hope recently, and have been thinking
of interesting ways to use it in ConTeXt.


>To use these in Context is it a case of
>following the 'Texfont explained' and 'Fonts in Context' manuals?  I think I
>have seen some 'My Way' (or is it 'This way'... well, 'Whatever way' ;>) )
>on the Wiki about this as well.  

I think Bill McClain's page is a great place to start. My MyWays sort of
pick up on topics after that.

>I realize this is not a trivial pursuit for
>a beginner but I would like to give it a try. Are there any pitfalls to look
>out for or should I just dive in?

Dive in!
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21+44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
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[NTG-context] fleurons - reprise

[Keith McKay]

Thanks to Hans and Adam for the helpful advice.  The code from Adam looked a
bit daunting to me as a learner at first but when I changed [pzdr] to [uzdr]
it worked fine.  I attach the output from Adam's code which also includes
his query about symb-run in a previous message. Hope this is of use.  From
the further discussion between them I hope I didn't open a can of worms.

One last question.  I did a search on the web for fleuron fonts and came up
with a few interesting hits.  To use these in Context is it a case of
following the 'Texfont explained' and 'Fonts in Context' manuals?  I think I
have seen some 'My Way' (or is it 'This way'... well, 'Whatever way' ;>) )
on the Wiki about this as well.  I realize this is not a trivial pursuit for
a beginner but I would like to give it a try. Are there any pitfalls to look
out for or should I just dive in?

Thanks
Keith

Keith McKay
Hamilton, Scotland

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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Adam Lindsay]

Hans Hagen said this at Tue, 31 May 2005 12:14:44 +0200:

>ps. i know that thomas has a minimalistic approach: as less files as
possible 
>and this is one source of the aliasses file; maybe fine for tetex, but 
>potentially disastrous for tex live

All good points. The solution (work-around that fits in currently
existing schemes) that presented itself about 15 minutes after hitting
"send" was to add 
\definefontsynonym [uzdr] [pzdr]
...to each of the adobekb typescripts.

And to add uzdr.tfm to the list of candidates for cont-fnt dist, as well. :)
-- 
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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Hans Hagen]

Adam Lindsay wrote:

Hans Hagen said this at Tue, 31 May 2005 08:37:26 +0200:



Adam Lindsay wrote:



\loadmapfile[pdftex_dl14] % Make sure we embed the dingbats
\definefontsynonym [ZapfDingbat] [pzdr] % maybe uzdr 


better use uzdr since pzdr is an aliassed file



another thing to work on: uzdr.tfm wasn't on my gwTeX install, but an
aliased pzdr was. Sigh.


this differes per year; i keep changing these names and always lag behind one 
tex live version because i find out afterwards


Let's ask the Master Of TeXLive Fiel Management:

Karl,

i think that we need to get rid of the urw mappings in the aliases file

we can just have two copies of those (few) files and we need to make sure that 
we don't change it [i wonder, is it possible to make some parts of the 
repository write only, i.e. avoid the danger of removal?)


one of the previous tex lives someone moved the urw's to some 35vf folder, after 
that things went bad (got lost and such); i discussed this with Staszek and he 
reverted it;


this kind of things has to do with the everlasting some urw fonts can be 
exchanged with some built in ps fonts as claimed by walter cum suis (which is 
not true, ask nelson -)


i have no problem if this introduces a mess for latex users but context (users) 
expect the whole set of urw (afm & pfb) to be present because they generate 
other encodings and such;


[i cc to volker * jerzy + staszek because they may know of similar problems 
bering reported]


Hans

ps. i know that thomas has a minimalistic approach: as less files as possible 
and this is one source of the aliasses file; maybe fine for tetex, but 
potentially disastrous for tex live


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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Adam Lindsay]

Hans Hagen said this at Tue, 31 May 2005 08:37:26 +0200:

>Adam Lindsay wrote:
>
>> \loadmapfile[pdftex_dl14] % Make sure we embed the dingbats
>> \definefontsynonym [ZapfDingbat] [pzdr] % maybe uzdr 
>
>better use uzdr since pzdr is an aliassed file

another thing to work on: uzdr.tfm wasn't on my gwTeX install, but an
aliased pzdr was. Sigh.
-- 
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 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Hans Hagen]

Adam Lindsay wrote:


\loadmapfile[pdftex_dl14] % Make sure we embed the dingbats
\definefontsynonym [ZapfDingbat] [pzdr] % maybe uzdr 


better use uzdr since pzdr is an aliassed file

Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Adam Lindsay]

Hans Hagen said this at Mon, 30 May 2005 23:52:42 +0200:

>> easy to read.  In Bringhurst's book he mentions fleurons - "A horticultural
>> dingbat" which I would like to access.  I have looked through the Context
>
>if you can track down the font, it's no problem to get it typeset

I've been revisiting my Dingbat support, and am close to a release, but
ran into a bug on my system. In the meantime, this might help:

\loadmapfile[pdftex_dl14] % Make sure we embed the dingbats
\definefontsynonym [ZapfDingbat] [pzdr] % maybe uzdr 

\def\ZapfDingbatSymb#1{\getglyph{ZapfDingbat}{\char#1}}

\startsymbolset[Zapf Hearts] 
   \definesymbol[HeavyBlackHeart] [\ZapfDingbatSymb{164}] 
   \definesymbol[RotatedHeavyBlackHeartBullet][\ZapfDingbatSymb{165}] 
   \definesymbol[FloralHeart] [\ZapfDingbatSymb{166}] 
   \definesymbol[RotatedFloralHeartBullet][\ZapfDingbatSymb{167}]
\stopsymbolset

\definesymbol[1][{\symbol[Zapf Hearts][FloralHeart]}] 
\definesymbol[2][{\symbol[Zapf Hearts][RotatedFloralHeartBullet]}] 

\starttext

\startitemize
\item Most fleurons are font||specific.
\item Zapf Dingbats contains a couple interesting fleurons.
 \startitemize
 \item This is a place to start.
 \stopitemize
\stopitemize

\centerline{\symbol[Zapf Hearts][HeavyBlackHeart]}

\stoptext
 

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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Adam T. Lindsay, Computing Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Lancaster University, InfoLab21+44(0)1524/510.514
 Lancaster, LA1 4WA, UK Fax:+44(0)1524/510.492
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Re: [NTG-context] Fleurons

[Hans Hagen]

Keith McKay wrote:


easy to read.  In Bringhurst's book he mentions fleurons - "A horticultural
dingbat" which I would like to access.  I have looked through the Context


if you can track down the font, it's no problem to get it typeset

Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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[NTG-context] Fleurons

[Keith McKay]

Dear All

I am in the process of learning the wonders of Context and enjoying the
challenge.My Context is the stand alone version for Windows which I
downloaded from the Pragma site.  I'm getting used to using the Scite editor
although it was a little difficult in the beginning.  

Just now I'm putting together some short stories and am having fun playing
about with layout and using different kinds of fonts. Also I'm reading 'The
Elements of Typographic Style' by Robert Bringhurst which is absolutely
superb!  I would never have thought that a book on typography would be so
easy to read.  In Bringhurst's book he mentions fleurons - "A horticultural
dingbat" which I would like to access.  I have looked through the Context
manuals but with no success.  Could someone give me some hints?

Thanks
Keith McKay
Hamilton, Scotland

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