Re: Draft Board report for November

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 1:14 AM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

> In the first three months after graduation a project is supposed to report
> to the Board on a monthly basis. So our reports will be due in November
> 2012, in December 2012, and then on a quarterly basis (Jan-Apr-Jul-Oct).
>
> I started a first draft of this month's report (which is still using the
> podling format, since we graduated less than two weeks ago) at
> https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/display/OOOUSERS/**2012+Nov
>
> Feel free to edit it. It should cover September 2012 and October 2012.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
>
Good that you put it on the wiki. When is the due date?


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: CMS diff:

[Kay Schenk]

Hi Jan--

This change in now in production.

On 11/02/2012 01:33 AM, jan iversen wrote:

Clone URL (Committers only):
https://cms.apache.org/redirect?new=anonymous;action=diff;uri=http://ooo-site.apache.org/l10n-new%2Ftopnav.mdtext

jan iversen

Index: trunk/content/l10n-new/topnav.mdtext
===
--- trunk/content/l10n-new/topnav.mdtext(revision 1404890)
+++ trunk/content/l10n-new/topnav.mdtext(working copy)
@@ -8,4 +8,4 @@
  [m0]: /l10n-new/documentation.html  "L10n documentation"
  [m1]: /l10n-new/support.html"Localization support"
  [m2]: /l10n-new/team.html   "Apache OpenOffice in your Native 
Language"
-[m3]: /l10n-new/archive/index.html  "Old site"
+



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)

[Kay Schenk]

On 11/02/2012 10:34 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

On 31/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote:

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:

In order to take control of the DNS for each domain we need someone
with Apache Infrastructure karma to work in concert with the proper
person from Oracle in order to transfer all of these domain
registrations.

This is exactly what we did, right?  But the JIRA issue did not
progress.  Our fault for not noting that there was a clock ticking


Actually these domains are still there: I tested 5 random ones from
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906 and as Dave write they
appear to have been (auto)renewed. They do not resolve, but WHOIS shows
that they still exist and still belong to Oracle.

Which means that https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906 can
progress normally with the transfer of ownership of those domains to the
ASF. I asked on the issue page details on the next steps.

Regards,
   Andrea.


Andrea, thank you. I did not realize a jira ticket had actually been 
created on this way back in June. So, my apologies especially to Andrew 
Rist on this. :/


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks

[Kay Schenk]

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
>> On 30/10/2012 Guy Waterval wrote:
>>>
>>> But for other people who will occasionally participate, why not a Post
>>> Office where they could register (for security reasons, acceptation of the
>>> license, etc.).
>>> When they have time, they can visit the Post Office to see the list of to
>>> do tasks, and they can download for instance a translation job.
>>
>>
>> This has been a recurring request, a sort of web application acting as
>> "employment agency": matching skills and tasks. Done properly (and with an
>> adequately smart user interface) it would indeed help in attracting new
>> volunteers.
>>
>
> I wonder if something like this would work:
> http://openhatch.org/search/?q=&toughness=bitesize&language=Python
>
> It looks like they can suck in appropriately flagged BZ issues.
>
> -Rob
>


! I like it...of course we would need to be diligent about using
BZ for new tasks... :}

>
>> It would need new tools since BugZilla does not offer an adequate interface
>> and lacks the individual part (i.e., a self-assessed list of skills that
>> will match the tasks). If somebody wants to draft some ideas on a wiki page,
>> this is something that might be worth some effort on a medium term.
>>
>> Regards,
>>   Andrea.



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: AOO.Next IBM Priorities

[Kay Schenk]

On 11/01/2012 09:45 AM, robert_w...@us.ibm.com wrote:

A quick note, wearing my "IBM hat".

We (IBM) have consulted with customers, internal users, other IBM product
teams, on what our (IBM's) development priorities should be for the next
AOO release.  Obviously, we're not the only ones with priorities or
interests or opinions.  We don't make AOO decisions by ourselves.  But we
want to be transparent about what our own priorities are, for our
employees participating in the AOO community, and what they will be
focusing on.   As we did with AOO 3.4.0 and 3.4.1, we'll be putting the
details onto the wiki over the next couple of weeks.  You'll hear more at
ApacheCon, but I wanted you to hear it hear first.


Thanks for sharing this, and could you re-post the (IBM) wiki link. It's 
been a while since we looked at anything related to this, and I didn't 
save it.


Thanks.



Our top priorities:

-- Improve the install and deployment experience, especially by supporting
digital signatures on installs, and introducing a new incremental update
feature, so users are not required to download and install a full image
for just a minor update.

-- A major UI enhancement, a sidebar framework for the editors, ported
over from Symphony, and including an API.  If you recall, Symphony won
quite a lot of praise for its UI, and much of this was due to the sidebar
panel.  I think we can make a good argument that this approach, say
compared to the MS Office "ribbon" is a better use of screen real-estate,
especially as we see more frequent use of wide screen displays.

-- Improved Table of Contents in Writer

-- Improved system integration on Windows and MacOS, including possible
adoption of "gestures".

-- IAccessible2 bridge, ported over from Symphony, to improve
accessibility.  This is a major effort, but very important.

-- Closer integration of clipart and template libraries with user
experience.

-- Update branding and visual styling, contemporary and compelling, fresh
and relevant.

-- Social integration, allow our users to quickly and easily share their
thoughts in a way that compliment their commercial social behavior.
Explore the integration of consumer service-specific capabilities as well
as generic Share... actions.

-- And many other smaller items

Obviously the release date for this cannot be pinned down so early, and
releasing is PMC decision, not an IBM one.  But we think that this work
could be completed and tested for a release in the March/April 2013
time-frame.  And the scope of the release might be significant enough to
warrant a "4.0" designation.

In any case, we'll soon set up a page on the wiki to collect these items.
As always, I invite you to add your own priorities to the wiki, things
that you would like to work on.  This could be a new feature.  Or, if one
of the above items sound interesting to you, we always welcome help
designing and implementing these features.

Regards,

-Rob






--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/31/2012 11:36 AM, jan iversen wrote:

+1 to your 3 layer strategy.

I have made a proposal for the wiki page, however I am not competent to
fill in the tasks.
http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Communication/new_contributors&action=submit

I have NOT linked it in anywhere, but a natural link would in
"participation" on the main page.

Jan.


OK, I will bail out from this for now, and see what else develops here. 
You know what they say about "too many cooks"... :/


Looking forward to interesting results from both Rob and Jan.

I will certainly help as I see a need.



On 31 October 2012 18:59, Rob Weir  wrote:


On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:46 PM, jan iversen 
wrote:

Hi.

I think your md pages are SUPERwhat I suggested was an additional

wiki

page (actually someone else called it postoffice) where we put small

tasks

that need to be translated / written etc.

So I see your pages go hand in hand with Wiki pages, just too different
levels of interaction with the community.



Right.   So maybe when we do a wider "call for volunteers" we can
offer three tracks:

1) Sign up for ooo-dev and "drink from the firehose"  (our only current
option)

2) A short intro on the wiki, one that doesn't exist yet, but maybe
someone can write one.

3) A longer self-paced intro on the website (what I'm working on)

They are volunteers, so we can't force them to do anything.  But we
can offer them a few choices.  I'm happy to provide one of those
choices.  Who wants to provide another?

-Rob


jan

On 31 October 2012 16:59, Rob Weir  wrote:


On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Kay Schenk 

wrote:



On 10/28/2012 04:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote:


On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andrea Pescetti <

pesce...@apache.org>

wrote:


On 23/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote:



New Volunteer Orientation root page:
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/




This is an excellent resource. But we received a few requests from
prospective volunteers this weekend and I'm believing it would be
overwhelming to point them there. I still believe these documents

are

excellent, but probably they are assuming our volunteer is above

average,

or
at least willing to engage deeply with the project. They would be

perfect

for me, for you, or for a newcomer like Jan who has the skills and

the

mindset to understand in detail how things work.



And how do we know in advance which volunteers are like Jan and which

are

not?

I think we should find some way to point them to the info and say

that

they are welcome to jump in and ignore this all, or skim it in
parallel with direct participation, or read through this stuff first.
It is entirely up to them.

But generally, the more one needs to interact with other project
participants and other systems and even other parts of Apache, the
more this information becomes useful.   Although not stated, one

could

almost say that "Level 4" would be becoming a Committer.  So you are
correct that this is a track for a more determined volunteer,



But we will also have (and we do have: most volunteers I see on the
mailing
lists in Italian fall in this category) volunteers who don't care

that

much
about OpenOffice as a project: they use the product and just want to

give

something back. They want to scratch an itch, or just to do

something,

but
they are very task-oriented: they want something to do rather than
something
to read. For example, we may have translation volunteers who would

be

perfectly satisfied if we e-mail them a PO file and tell them to

grab

POEdit
and send the file back; and then they would consider a deeper

engagement,

but not earlier.



Translation volunteers are different in many ways, but even there I
think we need some solid orientation material.  They won't go far
before wondering why they cannot write to Pootle and the website, but
others can.  That leads us into discussion of roles at Apache, etc.
And we really need to expose them to the Apache License at the
earliest opportunity.  We do no one any favors if we're passing

around

PO files via private mail, and receiving translations without any
public record of contribution.

In any case, this is an issue we've had for a while.  Becoming a
Committer is a higher hurdle than is appropriate for most translation
volunteers, due to iCLA, etc.  The orientation guides did not create
this problem, they merely remind us of it.


And indeed they are not totally wrong: knowing how the Apache Board

works

is
not needed to be able to translate a press release, or a few

OpenOffice

strings, into Italian.

Could it be that we need a "practical" entry point for people who

want

to

help and just want to do it immediately? Placing these information

at

level
3 of the "Volunteer Orientation" seems too much for volunteers who

want

to
jump in and do something (while, again, the orientation 

Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)

[Kay Schenk]

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:
>
> On Oct 31, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
>
>>
>> On 12-10-31, at 14:17 , Andrew Rist  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 10/31/2012 8:54 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/30/2012 04:14 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/30/2012 1:39 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>>>> Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently some of the ".com" domains don't even show up on the DNS radar,
>>>>>> and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of
>>>>>> this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to
>>>>>> have happened yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess it's not been on the top of any of our lists.  The domains were
>>>>> opened up for transfer on the Oracle side (not sure if that times out).
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the update. I'm not sure what this means though. :/
>>>>
>>>> Oracle didn't renew them and now these domains are up for grabs?
>>> Unfortunately - that does seem to be the case.  I'm not sure if that is 
>>> really a problem, though.
>>
>> I don't think it is.
>>
>>
>>> A lot of these domains were acquired as a defensive measure, and I am not 
>>> sure there is currently a substantial problem  with these 'similar domains'.
>>
>> Quite. I was working with the legal team at Sun and then Oracle on these and 
>> a) not many of them and b) the efforts were targeted and defensive and did 
>> not really map to any aggressive outreach strategy. Actually, to say a nice 
>> thing about a certain set of companies, the efforts really were directed to 
>> shelter the most active communities.
>
> I did a series of whois requests on these domains. They seems to be 
> registered with Tucows on auto-renewal:
>
> eg:
> Domain ID:D159673109-LROR
> Domain Name:IT-OPENOFFICE.ORG
> Created On:16-Jul-2010 19:33:15 UTC
> Last Updated On:17-Jun-2012 06:09:50 UTC
> Expiration Date:16-Jul-2013 19:33:15 UTC
> Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
>
>
>>
>>> Also, if a problem does arise, we have the trademark to protect the brand.
>>
>> Yes, but perhaps we can start a new thread  or threads that can finalize 
>> this issue and re-frame it not as a set of defensive tactics but as a 
>> strategy to promote AOO, and to use the domains as vehicles for that 
>> promotion….
>
> The thread name is correct. This is old business..
>
> Choice 1 - work to transfer domains to the ASF so that the AOO can "do 
> something" with these domains.
>
> In order to take control of the DNS for each domain we need someone with 
> Apache Infrastructure karma to work in concert with the proper person from 
> Oracle in order to transfer all of these domain registrations.

Right. If they're on "auto-renewal", would this mean that Oracle got
billed and paid for them or ???

>
> Choice 2 - ignore these domains. Let Oracle know we don't care. They can make 
> their own choice about renewing these domains or not.
>

I don't know when the renewal dates are but my DNS info indicates they
sill *belong* to Oracle, so my assumption is they've been renewed by
Oracle. So, maybe we're really at Choice 1. (at least many of the
*.org ones resolves, the *.com ones don't. I didn't check them all
however.)

If we do still want them, we need an Oracle contact.

Assuming we want to proceed with this, Andrew can you provide an
Oracle contact via  a JIRA ticket to INFRA, and we'll see where we get
with this.


> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> -louis
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/30/2012 04:14 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:


On 10/30/2012 1:39 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:

Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one:

http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u

Currently some of the ".com" domains don't even show up on the DNS radar,
and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of
this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF?

I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to
have happened yet.

Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks.


https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906

I guess it's not been on the top of any of our lists.  The domains were
opened up for transfer on the Oracle side (not sure if that times out).

Andrew


Thanks for the update. I'm not sure what this means though. :/

Oracle didn't renew them and now these domains are up for grabs?





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/28/2012 04:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andrea Pescetti  wrote:

On 23/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote:


New Volunteer Orientation root page:
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/



This is an excellent resource. But we received a few requests from
prospective volunteers this weekend and I'm believing it would be
overwhelming to point them there. I still believe these documents are
excellent, but probably they are assuming our volunteer is above average, or
at least willing to engage deeply with the project. They would be perfect
for me, for you, or for a newcomer like Jan who has the skills and the
mindset to understand in detail how things work.



And how do we know in advance which volunteers are like Jan and which are not?

I think we should find some way to point them to the info and say that
they are welcome to jump in and ignore this all, or skim it in
parallel with direct participation, or read through this stuff first.
It is entirely up to them.

But generally, the more one needs to interact with other project
participants and other systems and even other parts of Apache, the
more this information becomes useful.   Although not stated, one could
almost say that "Level 4" would be becoming a Committer.  So you are
correct that this is a track for a more determined volunteer,



But we will also have (and we do have: most volunteers I see on the mailing
lists in Italian fall in this category) volunteers who don't care that much
about OpenOffice as a project: they use the product and just want to give
something back. They want to scratch an itch, or just to do something, but
they are very task-oriented: they want something to do rather than something
to read. For example, we may have translation volunteers who would be
perfectly satisfied if we e-mail them a PO file and tell them to grab POEdit
and send the file back; and then they would consider a deeper engagement,
but not earlier.



Translation volunteers are different in many ways, but even there I
think we need some solid orientation material.  They won't go far
before wondering why they cannot write to Pootle and the website, but
others can.  That leads us into discussion of roles at Apache, etc.
And we really need to expose them to the Apache License at the
earliest opportunity.  We do no one any favors if we're passing around
PO files via private mail, and receiving translations without any
public record of contribution.

In any case, this is an issue we've had for a while.  Becoming a
Committer is a higher hurdle than is appropriate for most translation
volunteers, due to iCLA, etc.  The orientation guides did not create
this problem, they merely remind us of it.


And indeed they are not totally wrong: knowing how the Apache Board works is
not needed to be able to translate a press release, or a few OpenOffice
strings, into Italian.

Could it be that we need a "practical" entry point for people who want to
help and just want to do it immediately? Placing these information at level
3 of the "Volunteer Orientation" seems too much for volunteers who want to
jump in and do something (while, again, the orientation guide is excellent
for a skilled, determined volunteer).



Since "level 3" for translators does not exist yet, it may be too
early to say whether or not is "practical".   (I hope it will be
practical).  If we make it self-contained, it may be possible for it
be consulted on its own for someone who is not seeking deeper
engagement with the project.

-Rob



Regards,
   Andrea.


Rob,

I still support this whole notion. But, maybe it would be better to go 
with more of a "checklist" style instead of the in-depth explanations 
you have in this document.


What if you ported this to the wiki (Jan suggested this as well. cwiki 
is easiest for me but I have no object to wiki.openoffice.org) so those 
of us that are interested can more easily contribute to this worthwhile 
guide.


Thanks for starting this. It is needed.

--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: volunteering

[Kay Schenk]

On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 12:36 PM, Prabha Chidambaran
 wrote:
>
> Hi Apache folks: My name is Prabha Chidambaran and I am an aspiring
> technical writer living in New Jersey.
> I have a journalism background, good with computer applications and
> would love to help you all out with documentation. Please tell me
> where to get started as the Apache website is very large.
>
> Thank you very much,
> Prabha


Hello again Prabha --

First off, it would be best if you subscribed to
ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org if you intend to continue discussions
with Apache OpenOffice.

see information at:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html#development-mailing-list


We can always use help with the web site, which is quite large.

For the time being, I would suggest doing some investigation on your
own, and seeing what areas YOU think need more work. Recently, we've
been discussing the support page --

http://www.openoffice.org/support/index.html

but there are likely manner areas that need some attention.

Thanks again for volunteering.


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)

[Kay Schenk]

Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one:

http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u

Currently some of the ".com" domains don't even show up on the DNS radar,
and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of
this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF?

I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to
have happened yet.

Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks.

-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: volunteering

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/27/2012 02:00 PM, Prabha Chidambaran wrote:

Hello Apache: My name is Prabha Chidambaran and I live in New Jersey.
I am an aspiring technical writer and would love to get involved in
writing documentation and help guides for your website. I have a
Master's degree from Rutgers University and I have some background in
journalism. I am very comfortable with MS Office and familiar with MS
Access. I'd be thrilled if I could help you all in the writing parts.

Thank you so much,
Prabha



Hello Prabha --

We can certainly use your skills as a technical writer in the project.

There are basically two forms of documentation that we maintain/support 
-- volunteer material on the Documentation area of the wiki, and an 
ongoing effort for more formal User Guides, currently carried on by the 
ODFAuthors group.


More information on these approaches and how you can get started is 
available on the Documentation area of the wiki (see especially the "How 
to Contriubte" link to the right side of the following page):


http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation

Thank you for contacting Apache OpenOffice.

--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [PROPOSAL] "difficulty" field for Bugzilla

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > On 10/26/2012 07:26 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Andre Fischer 
> wrote:
> >>> On 24.10.2012 22:28, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> @Regina,
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes, Wizard is a reference to the level of mastery that a solver
> must
> >>>> possess, and is one of those "which one of these words does not
> belong"
> >>>> solutions.
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a well-known *logarithmic* difficulty scale that has been
> used
> >>>> over 40 years for problem difficulty.  It might be worth adapting:
> >>>>
> >>>>(after unknown),
> >>>>
> >>>> 00 easy - immediately solvable by someone willing to do it
> >>>> 10 simple - takes minutes
> >>>> 20 medium, average - quarter hour
> >>>> 30 moderate, an evening
> >>>> 40 difficult, challenging, non-trivial (term project, GSoC...)
> >>>> 50 unsolved, deep, requires a breakthrough, research
> >>>>(PhD dissertation)
> >>>> 60 intractable (that I just made up - probably not something that
> >>>>is technically feasible regardless of skill, Nobel Prize,
> >>>>P = NP, etc.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is this not similar to what Knuth used (uses) in his "Art of Computer
> >>> Programming" series?
> >>>
> >>
> >> It reminds me of Knuth as well.
> >>
> >> In any case, I've added the new field, using the above scale, but
> >> changing "unsolved" to "research", since all open bugs are unsolved in
> >> some sense.
> >>
> >> -Rob
> >
> > Rob, Will you be updating the information/instructions on:
> >
> > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/QA/HowToFileIssue
> >
> > with this new field?
> >
>
> I don't think the average bug reporter has any idea whether something
> is an easy fix or not.  Only a developer would know this.  And
> developers don't read pages with names like 'How to file a good Issue"
> ;-)
>
> But I will document as part of the new volunteer orientation stuff I'm
> writing up.  There are a number of pieces that I need to connect
> together -- the new volunteers directory, the new orientation modules,
> the BZ difficulty field, etc.  Hopefully I can get this ready to
> launch soon.
>

OK, I know what you're saying...the thing is this will be a field the
reporter can access, correct? They *may* put something in or wonder what
they should use.  I just think for completeness it should be included.

and thanks for all of this...


> -Rob
>
> >
> >>
> >>> -Andre
> >>>
> >
> > --
> > 
> > MzK
> >
> > "Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
> >   dealt with a cat."
> > -- Robert Heinlein
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: The Impossible Question

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Dave Fisher 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Oct 26, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >> Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading,
> installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse.
> They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact
> the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them.
> >>
> >> What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since
> been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much
> an improved version of the old but of course the "ecosystem" needs further
> fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence.
> >>
> >> I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application
> download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the
> befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and
> doesn't really know where to go…..
> >>
> >> So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make
> it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have
> a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members.
> >>
> >> But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I
> personally would include something in the installation sets that point to
> the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly
> obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages.
> >>
> >> Ideas?
> >
> > We could emulate a version of what the ASF does to highlight the many
> projects. Take a look at www.apache.org - you will see a feature project
> section.
> >
> > Perhaps on www.openoffice.org we can add a "Featured Support Question /
> Language / News". This would be backed by an xml file of FAQs, Languages
> and News which would randomly be selected every day and republished to the
> front page.
> >
>
> I like the idea in general, but from a support perspective I think we
> need to get the feed down to the client.  Why?  Because users have no
> current reason to visit www.openoffice.org homepage on a regular
> basis.  It is not really a necessary place for them to visit, once
> they've downloaded.
>
> Most users just want to get their work done.  They don't have any
> emotional attachment to AOO.  It is just a tool.  If they are thinking
> about their tools rather then their work, then something is probably
> wrong.  This is not sexy, Apple-like technology that users go gooey
> over.   It is a good day that a user thinks about their document, but
> not about their word processor.  The task is in the forefront, the
> tool recedes into the background, like any good tool an extension of
> the user.
>
> Well, that's one ideal, at least.
>
> So in terms of priorities, we should want:
>
> 1) Fewer bugs, not more bug FAQ's
>
> 2) Less need for support, not a more prominent support page
>

Well this is the ideal of course.   In some cases though, what a user
already has running on their system may be a major culprit and something we
can't control or deal with easily (yep! I spent a number of years in User
Support as well).


> 3) More quick avenues for self-help rather than hard-to-scale support
> offerings
>
> 4) More skill-building pages, ways user can become more productive
> with the tools.  We could make a destination that users would actually
> visit if we could pull together solid content on "power tips",
> extensions reviews, lists of topical templates (for holidays, tax
> time, etc.).
>
> -Rob
>

I don't know ANYTHING about how the Help (the Support menu item) pages for
AOO are constructed (maybe time I learned?).  There's already a LOT of
information under "Common Help Topics". But, maybe we need to spend some
time revisiting this area and see if the topics still meet current needs
(in the product itself). Some of the issues that have been reported
recently are very odd but maybe there's a reason.  This would be the most
direct route for the end user I assume.


>
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Louis
> >>
> >
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: The Impossible Question

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 4:57 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:

>
> On Oct 26, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
>
> > Hi
> > Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading,
> installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse.
> They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact
> the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them.
> >
> > What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since
> been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much
> an improved version of the old but of course the "ecosystem" needs further
> fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence.
> >
> > I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application
> download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the
> befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and
> doesn't really know where to go…..
> >
> > So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it
> clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a
> knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members.
> >
> > But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I
> personally would include something in the installation sets that point to
> the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly
> obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages.
> >
> > Ideas?
>
> We could emulate a version of what the ASF does to highlight the many
> projects. Take a look at www.apache.org - you will see a feature project
> section.
>
> Perhaps on www.openoffice.org we can add a "Featured Support Question /
> Language / News". This would be backed by an xml file of FAQs, Languages
> and News which would randomly be selected every day and republished to the
> front page.
>


hmmm...an interesting idea. This would be easier to implement if our
"items" were in a DB of some sort. Otherwise I'm clueless has to how we
could realistically do this.


>
> Regards,
> Dave
>

Yeah, I got to thinking more after I posted this yesterday.

For starters, maybe we should put together a "Support FAQ" or "Problem
Shortlist" and link that prominently on the "support" page. This would take
some time to cull through issues, but I think we already have a pretty good
idea about what some of these are. I'm thinking of a rather short list here
-- like maybe 10 - 20 items.

Also, what about the "Support" page. Is the order of items OK. If not, what
should they be?

>
> >
> > Thanks
> > Louis
> >
>
>


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: The Impossible Question

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

>
> On 12-10-26, at 17:25 , Rob Weir  wrote:
>
> > Of course, the real question, Louis, is what do *you* want to do?
>
> Be cynical, or I mean, more cynical.
>
> Seriously, I have the same objections and observations as you do but I've
> also spent 11 years dealing with people who don't. No one thing will work.
> That's why I suggest multiple redundancies, and to place the instances
> alerting users of opportunities in key areas—the download, for instance
> (where we also used to locate contribution options), but also the Help,
> About, etc. But what's usually best is to follow what others have done, and
> to figure that the path has been torched, it's the one that will be
> followed, so let's use it.
>

Louis--

I see "Support" on the home page as it's own major link; "Support" as a tab
available from all pages; and "Support" (probably not best placed) on the
download page in Documentation. We could certainly move this to "Additional
Information" or its own category placement.

If you feel something additional might help, it would be best to state some
specific navigation areas or 


> As I don't use MSFT Office and the last time I did found myself deep in
> the sea of thick frustration, I'm the last person to ask about this.
>
> louis




-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [PROPOSAL] "difficulty" field for Bugzilla

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/26/2012 07:26 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Andre Fischer  wrote:
>> On 24.10.2012 22:28, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>>
>>> @Regina,
>>>
>>>Yes, Wizard is a reference to the level of mastery that a solver must
>>> possess, and is one of those "which one of these words does not belong"
>>> solutions.
>>>
>>> There is a well-known *logarithmic* difficulty scale that has been used
>>> over 40 years for problem difficulty.  It might be worth adapting:
>>>
>>>(after unknown),
>>>
>>> 00 easy - immediately solvable by someone willing to do it
>>> 10 simple - takes minutes
>>> 20 medium, average - quarter hour
>>> 30 moderate, an evening
>>> 40 difficult, challenging, non-trivial (term project, GSoC...)
>>> 50 unsolved, deep, requires a breakthrough, research
>>>(PhD dissertation)
>>> 60 intractable (that I just made up - probably not something that
>>>is technically feasible regardless of skill, Nobel Prize,
>>>P = NP, etc.)
>>
>>
>> Is this not similar to what Knuth used (uses) in his "Art of Computer
>> Programming" series?
>>
>
> It reminds me of Knuth as well.
>
> In any case, I've added the new field, using the above scale, but
> changing "unsolved" to "research", since all open bugs are unsolved in
> some sense.
>
> -Rob

Rob, Will you be updating the information/instructions on:

http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/QA/HowToFileIssue

with this new field?


>
>> -Andre
>>

-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
  dealt with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: svn commit: r1402586 - /incubator/ooo/site/trunk/content/openofficeorg/pmc-faqs.mdtext

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/26/2012 10:28 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:

I have access to the current list and will make the full update by early next 
week.


that would be great!



Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 26, 2012, at 10:19 AM, b...@apache.org wrote:


Author: bmcs
Date: Fri Oct 26 17:19:31 2012
New Revision: 1402586

URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?rev=1402586&view=rev
Log:
Updated moderators

Modified:
incubator/ooo/site/trunk/content/openofficeorg/pmc-faqs.mdtext

Modified: incubator/ooo/site/trunk/content/openofficeorg/pmc-faqs.mdtext
URL: 
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/ooo/site/trunk/content/openofficeorg/pmc-faqs.mdtext?rev=1402586&r1=1402585&r2=1402586&view=diff
==
--- incubator/ooo/site/trunk/content/openofficeorg/pmc-faqs.mdtext (original)
+++ incubator/ooo/site/trunk/content/openofficeorg/pmc-faqs.mdtext Fri Oct 26 
17:19:31 2012
@@ -40,10 +40,10 @@ contact first, before escalating to Apac

Each mailing list has one or more moderators.

-  - ooo-dev moderators are Rob Weir,
-  - ooo-users moderators are Rob Weir, Simon Phipps,
+  - ooo-dev moderators are Rob Weir, Dave Barton
+  - ooo-users moderators are Rob Weir, Simon Phipps, Dave Barton
   - ooo-qa moderators are Rob Weir,
-  - ooo-marketing moderators are Rob Weir,
+  - ooo-marketing moderators are Rob Weir, Dave Barton
   - ooo-private (restricted access) moderators are Rob Weir,
   - ooo-security (restricted access)with Rob Weir, Dennis Hamilton, Wolf Halton
and Juergen Schmidt as members.  New members can be added by consensus of the 
PMC




--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Another logo needs updating: "Get it here!"

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/25/2012 04:58 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 10/20/2012 12:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:


http://incubator.apache.org/**openofficeorg/get-it-here.html<http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-it-here.html>

This logo has an integrated incubator reference in it as well.

I think Drew made the most recent version of this.

Anyone have the source, or can easily respin it without the "incubator"
block?

Thanks!

-Rob



oh boy...while looking around just now, it seems we DO have an svg file of
Get it here! *without* incubator on it --

http://www.openoffice.org/**images/AOO_logos/svg/get-aoo_**300x100.svg<http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/svg/get-aoo_300x100.svg>

if this is any use ...





Ok, we still need to do cleanup on this one.

Do we want to replace--

  http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/images/get-it-here/en.png

with a link to a 300x100 rendering (without the beveled edges, so older I
suspect), at:

http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/get-aoo-300x100.png



OK.  That's why I did for now.  It is same size and everything.

-Rob


thanks...since you were the primary contact on this, I hesitated to do 
this if there were objections. I am not sufficiently talented to add 
bevels to this image, but I hope someone is.






we have .svg for this if someone wants to re-bevel.




--
--**--**


MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
  dealt with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
  dealt  with a cat."
 -- Robert Heinlein


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: User list and donations

[Kay Schenk]

Karl --

We're not sure what you were trying to do -- maybe send us a document 
using the E-mail feature of OpenOffice?


If this is the case, please see what is defined for your E-mail via

Tools -> Options -> Internet -> E-mail

if there is nothing there, then OpenOffice is using your "system 
default" e-mail, which may be MS Mail.


Here is some information from Yahoo on how to set up Yahoo Mail as your 
system default.


http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/settings/settings-10.html

Maybe this will help.

On 10/23/2012 04:37 PM, Karl Glode wrote:

Hi I have just updated my Apache Home Office.
I have tried to contact you by clicking the appropiate button but
Microsoft email site wants to open.I never use MS email these days, i use 
Yahoo7.
How do I make this happen that Y7 opens instead of MS

Karl



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Another logo needs updating: "Get it here!"

[Kay Schenk]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

>
>
> On 10/20/2012 12:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/**openofficeorg/get-it-here.html<http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-it-here.html>
>>
>> This logo has an integrated incubator reference in it as well.
>>
>> I think Drew made the most recent version of this.
>>
>> Anyone have the source, or can easily respin it without the "incubator"
>> block?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>
> oh boy...while looking around just now, it seems we DO have an svg file of
> Get it here! *without* incubator on it --
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/**images/AOO_logos/svg/get-aoo_**300x100.svg<http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/svg/get-aoo_300x100.svg>
>
> if this is any use ...
>
>
>>
Ok, we still need to do cleanup on this one.

Do we want to replace--

 http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/images/get-it-here/en.png

with a link to a 300x100 rendering (without the beveled edges, so older I
suspect), at:

http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/get-aoo-300x100.png

we have .svg for this if someone wants to re-bevel.



> --
> --**--**
> 
>
> MzK
>
> "Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
>  dealt with a cat."
>-- Robert Heinlein
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [PROPOSAL] "difficulty" field for Bugzilla

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/24/2012 02:15 PM, Donald Whytock wrote:

Apache Camel uses an "Estimated Complexity" custom field in the Apache
Issues Tracker.  Current values in it are "Any", "Unknown", "Novice",
"Moderate", "Advanced", "Guru" and "Needs James Gosling".


LOL! :D



Had to look him up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gosling

Don

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts  wrote:


On 12-10-24, at 16:28 , "Dennis E. Hamilton"  wrote:


@Regina,

Yes, Wizard is a reference to the level of mastery that a solver must
possess, and is one of those "which one of these words does not belong"
solutions.

There is a well-known *logarithmic* difficulty scale that has been used
over 40 years for problem difficulty.  It might be worth adapting:

(after unknown),

  00 easy - immediately solvable by someone willing to do it
  10 simple - takes minutes
  20 medium, average - quarter hour
  30 moderate, an evening
  40 difficult, challenging, non-trivial (term project, GSoC...)
  50 unsolved, deep, requires a breakthrough, research
 (PhD dissertation)
  60 intractable (that I just made up - probably not something that
 is technically feasible regardless of skill, Nobel Prize,
 P = NP, etc.)

I suspect this scale has too much at the low end and perhaps not
enough steps at the high end.   Perhaps there are two factors - skills and
work factor - how long for someone of the necessary skills?  Or else
work factor is suggestive of the level of skill?

 easy - minutes (fixing a typo on a web page)
 simple - hour(s)
 moderate - days
 difficult, challenging - weeks
 hard, demanding - months
 stubborn - years (aka, intractable)

All of these assume fluency with basic tools and facility with the subject 
matter of the issue.

For example, fixing change-tracking is at least hard.

- Dennis


One aspect that has been used and not used enough is to consider this in light 
of how a student or neophyte might approach the task and whether it demands the 
added help a mentor can offer.

Louis


-Original Message-
From: Regina Henschel [mailto:rb.hensc...@t-online.de]
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 13:04
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] "difficulty" field for Bugzilla

Hi Rob,

Rob Weir schrieb:

As you have probably noticed, I'm engaged in a variety of initiatives
to grow the community, bring in more volunteers, etc.  One additional
piece that I think would be useful is to add a new field to Bugzilla
to indicate the difficulty level of the bug.  Of course, this will
often not be known.  But in some cases, we do know, and where we do
know we can indicate this.

What this allows us to do is then have search filters that return only
open easy bugs.  These are ideal for new developer volunteers on the
project who are looking for items that match their lesser familiarity
with the code.  It also allows a developer to step up to more
challenging bugs over time.

A similar approach, which they called "easy hacks", was successfully
used by LibreOffice.

If there are no objections, I'll add a new field to Bugzilla called
"cf_difficulty_level", and which a drop down UI with the following
choices:

UNKNOWN (default)
TRIVIAL
EASY
MODERATE
HARD
WIZARD


WIZARD is used in AOO UI in the meaning of 'assistant' or step by step
workflow. Therefore it might be not understood here. I need to look up
other meanings in a dictionary. I would drop it. HARD as highest step is
sufficient.

TRIVIAL sounds devaluating to me. Perhaps BEGINNER or STARTER is more
neutral? Being able to start is not only a question, whether the task is
easy or not from an objective point of view. Beyond that a mentor is
needed. Perhaps a category MENTORED instead of TRIVIAL is useful. A
senior developer would set it (and put himself in CC) if he is willing
to guide a newcomer.



(I'm certainly open to variations on the names)

I'd then rely on other developers to help "seed" the database with
some TRIVIAL and EASY bugs, so new volunteers will have something to
work with as they familiarize themselves with the project.

I'll wait 72 hours, etc.


In general I thing it is a good idea. Using Bugzilla has the advantage,
that it is not necessary to hold a Wiki page in sync with Bugzilla.

Kind regards
Regina





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: apache2.conf file for openoffice.org server.

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/25/2012 09:07 AM, jan iversen wrote:

Hi.

I got the "old" l10n, and saw that in SVN it did not use templates, then I
went on and checked the root (AOO) and also found no use of templates...I
did find it a bit strange but assumed there were good reasons for not using
templates, so I went down that road.

But taking your advice, I will have another look at the templates (it is
never too late to do a good thing).

Jan.


Jan, as an FYI...the OO website associates ssi with ".html", i.e. all .html.

If you follow the instructions that Rob pointed you too, AND do the 
python setup -- when you run the CMS build scripts, you will see a 
".htaccess" file dumped in the main content directory "content". This is 
the "definition" of the ssi processing for our site. Additionally, the 
build scripts convert the mdtext of the template files to html on output.


As it turns out, the .htaccess business did NOT work with my Apache 
webserver setup, 2.2., so I just did kind of generic ssi config, and now 
have to delete the generated ".htaccess" each time, but oh well, other 
than that, I'm good.


Bottom line, it is unlikely you will get to "see" the webserver config 
we actually use, but I'm sure you can cobble up something that will work.




On 25 October 2012 17:55, Dave Fisher  wrote:



On Oct 25, 2012, at 8:04 AM, jan iversen wrote:


Thanks for your as usual very informative instructions.

I did that, BUT it does not tell me which kind of SSI the apache server

is

using, there are two different methods:
1) using .shtml (which gives a problem with index.shtml)
2) setting excute bit on pages containing SSI, this requires XBitHack set
in httpd.conf (or apache2.conf on ubuntu).


I hope you have looked into the ooo-site/trunk/templates directory where
you will see that the SSIs are not shtml. They are 

Re: [PROPOSAL] "difficulty" field for Bugzilla

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/24/2012 01:04 PM, Regina Henschel wrote:

Hi Rob,

Rob Weir schrieb:

As you have probably noticed, I'm engaged in a variety of initiatives
to grow the community, bring in more volunteers, etc.  One additional
piece that I think would be useful is to add a new field to Bugzilla
to indicate the difficulty level of the bug.  Of course, this will
often not be known.  But in some cases, we do know, and where we do
know we can indicate this.

What this allows us to do is then have search filters that return only
open easy bugs.  These are ideal for new developer volunteers on the
project who are looking for items that match their lesser familiarity
with the code.  It also allows a developer to step up to more
challenging bugs over time.

A similar approach, which they called "easy hacks", was successfully
used by LibreOffice.

If there are no objections, I'll add a new field to Bugzilla called
"cf_difficulty_level", and which a drop down UI with the following
choices:

UNKNOWN (default)
TRIVIAL
EASY
MODERATE
HARD
WIZARD


We have a "severity" field right now as well. Will these two fields be 
confusing to some? How can we differentiate them, and, more's to the 
point, to the reporter? Or do you see this as something that the 
responder to the bug changes?





WIZARD is used in AOO UI in the meaning of 'assistant' or step by step
workflow. Therefore it might be not understood here. I need to look up
other meanings in a dictionary. I would drop it. HARD as highest step is
sufficient.

TRIVIAL sounds devaluating to me. Perhaps BEGINNER or STARTER is more
neutral? Being able to start is not only a question, whether the task is
easy or not from an objective point of view. Beyond that a mentor is
needed. Perhaps a category MENTORED instead of TRIVIAL is useful. A
senior developer would set it (and put himself in CC) if he is willing
to guide a newcomer.



(I'm certainly open to variations on the names)

I'd then rely on other developers to help "seed" the database with
some TRIVIAL and EASY bugs, so new volunteers will have something to
work with as they familiarize themselves with the project.

I'll wait 72 hours, etc.


In general I thing it is a good idea. Using Bugzilla has the advantage,
that it is not necessary to hold a Wiki page in sync with Bugzilla.

Kind regards
Regina



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Volunteers, Contributors, Committers, PMC members -- is there any way to consolidate these lists?

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/24/2012 11:56 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

We have the following today:

1) http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/people.html  -- This
lists a variety of people involved in the project, independent of
status.


yes, and I don't think it's up to date...it may need to go soonish.


2) I'd like to have a place for new volunteers to put their names,
preferably on the wiki or some place where a non-committer has easy
access.


Here's an idea...

we have/had the old "credits" page on the user portal web server:

http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/credits.html

I suggest we port this in its entirety to the wiki -- maybe even put in 
a new "People" navigation item -- and continue to let people add 
themselves to the list.




3) We have a list of Committers here, automatically generated:
http://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#ooo

4) We don't have anything that indicates which Committers are also PMC members.
We probably should list them on the project site...maybe a PMC page 
instead of the outdated "people" page, if this is important. Maybe a 
topic for further discussion.




5) We have this "credits" page, which is linked to from our Help/About
dialog box.  But it does not appear to be updated for AOO 3.4.0 or
3.4.1:  http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/credits.html


I see no reason why this page:

http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/credits.html

can't be moved in its entirety to the wiki -- maybe even put in a new 
"People" navigation item in the main wiki navigation -- and continue to 
let people add themselves to the list.




6) Wiki "User" pages


these are already there by the way, but some are quite outdated



7) Any others?

As we all know, with multiple lists like this things will get out of
synch.  In fact they already have.

One simplification idea might be:

1) Convert the people.html page into a wiki page

2) Have that page indicate who is a Committer or PMC member.  That can
be manual for now.

3) Point our Help/About box to the wiki page, and add sentence at the
end of the wiki that says, "OpenOffice has a long history and we also
thank those who contributed to it before our move to Apache" and then
link to credits.html


Any objections to this general idea?  Any improvements?

And if we did want a place to have a big table of volunteers, where on
the wiki should we put it (CWiki or MWiki)?

-Rob



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/24/2012 09:40 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:30 PM, jan iversen  wrote:

After a day of work, maybe I should elaborate on what I mean:

Having read your documents in detail, which I really find SUPER, I see one
challenge:

"old" people in the mailing list pretty much knows who is working on (sort
of responsible for) a given part, so they have no problems with "proposals"
since they know who to approach, and the JFDI methods works well.

new volunteers who wants to follow what happens and do a little here and
there, will typically not make [proposals] but do JFDI on the wiki, and
otherwise look for questions.

The last part, those who want to be integrated and help move things, do
have a slight problem:
[proposals] might not even be responded to, especially if they fall in one
of two catagories:
- this is something we have discussed before
- somebody is working on the theme
JFDI method might be even worse, because you spent hours doing something
sent it off to a committer and zero



This is also a possible conflict between two new volunteers, or even
two "old" volunteers.  If you go off and work on something for a month
without telling anyone, then you risk that someone old or new does the
same thing, or similar.

That is a point worth mentioning, that for larger jobs, you might want
to mention it on the list, not because it is controversial, but just
for coordination purposes, so others are aware.  Maybe they even offer
to help or give some helpful ideas.

I can include these ideas in the text.


I believe in both methods, but I really believe that JFDI should be AFJFDI
(asf first if anyone is working on it), and then do it. The proposal part
is a bit harder, and maybe your document should state "wait with proposals
until you are integrated in the commnity".



Certainly for larger tasks, this makes sense.  But if it is a quick
operation then JFDI works.  I suppose it depends on the
time-to-JFDI/time-to-post-and-wait-72-hours ratio.

For new volunteers they don't have access to SVN, so everything they
do is essentially RTC.  So submitting their patches is essentially
like making a proposal.   But the same considerations apply.  It might
make sense to float the idea first before investing a lot of time in
the work.


once again, your document are SUPER...the rest is just my experience.
jan.

On 24 October 2012 10:09, jan iversen  wrote:


+1, that was something I could really have used some weeks ago :-)

Maybe a word about "active volunteers" might not be harmful (I think I am
in that state now)

Jan I.


On 23 October 2012 23:30, Rob Weir  wrote:


On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

I am thinking about what new project volunteers need to get started.
Obviously there are area-specific things.  For example, developers
need to know how to download and build.  Translation volunteers need
to understand Pootle, etc.  But there are also some basic things that
all volunteers should probably do.

Although we have all of this information (or at least most of it) on
the website or wikis or mailing list archives, it is scattered all
over the place.  I think it would be good if we could collect this
information (or at least links to this information) into one place and
put a linear order behind it, a step of specific steps we want new
volunteers to take.

Now, I can hear the objections already -- you can't tell volunteers
what to do.  That is why they are volunteers.  You can't regiment
them, etc.  This is true.  But at the scale we need to operate at --
I'm aiming to attract dozens of new volunteers on the project by the
end of the year -- we need some structure.  So what can we do to make
their first 2 weeks in the project easier for them, and easier for us?

One idea:  Think of the new volunteer startup tasks in terms of
"stages" or "levels", a defined set of reading and other activities
that leads them to acquire basic skills in our community.

For example:

Level 1 tasks:

1) Read the following web pages on the ASF, roles at Apache and the

Apache Way


2) Sign up for the following accounts that every volunteer should
have:  ooo-announce, ooo-dev, ooo-users,  MWiki, CWiki, BZ, Forums

3) Read this helpful document on hints for managing your inbox with
rules and folders

4) Read this code of conduct page on list etiquette

5) Send a note to ooo-dev list and introduce yourself

6) Edit this wiki page  containing project volunteers. Add your name
and indicate that you have completed Level 1.


Level 2 tasks:

1) Using the Apache CMS in anonymous mode

2) Readings on decision making at Apache

3) Readings on project life cycle and roles within the AOO project

4) Introduction to the various functional groups within the project:
development, qa, marketing, UX, documentation, support, localization,
etc.

5) Pick one or more functional groups that you want to help with.
Edit the volunteer wiki and list them.  Also indicate that you have
now completed Level 2.

Get the idea

Re: User list and donations

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/24/2012 12:43 AM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

Probably he talks about the URL embedded on the UI like "get
extensions here", and this launch some MS email client like outlook.

He would need to configure his OS to use yahoo webmail.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070217130008AAsCjy1

That said, this user seems a bit unsophisticated to perform this tasks
or tell the difference between email clients and mailing list.


It sounds like he doesn't have Yahoo mail configured as his "default" 
mail client...maybe we just send him this link from Yahoo Help


http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/settings/settings-10.html

I suspect this may be one of the few times he's used something that 
requires an automatic open of an email window/interface.




On 10/24/12, Jürgen Schmidt  wrote:

On 10/24/12 1:37 AM, Karl Glode wrote:

Hi I have just updated my Apache Home Office.
I have tried to contact you by clicking the appropiate button but
Microsoft email site wants to open.I never use MS email these days, i
use Yahoo7.
How do I make this happen that Y7 opens instead of MS

Karl



the mail is moderated but I have no idea what he is doing and how we can
help. Does anybody else have an idea?

Juergen






--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [DISCUSS] ML Moderators

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/09/2012 06:47 PM, Shenfeng Liu wrote:

Thanks very much for the list, Dave!
I wonder if it is proper to publish the ML moderator list (at least for
those public MLs) on a wiki, so that it can be easily maintained and
updated on time?

- Simon


Simon, and *,

I looked at the following page today:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/pmc-faqs.html


and noticed that the moderators listed are out of date. I was actually 
going to update this page when I decided maybe the moderator listing 
would be better put *with* the mailing lists on the mailing list page:


http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html

Maybe leave the section on the responsibilities of the moderators on the 
PMC page, but move the actual names.


And...I do wish there was a way to track these down easily. :/
I will look into ezmlm a bit more but I imagine you need some "uber" 
capabilities.


Thoughts on this idea?




2012/9/9 Dave Fisher 


Hi -

Since Rob and Dennis will be leaving their ML moderators it is time to
revisit all of the lists. There are others that need action. I think we
should be replacing mentors (unless they explicitly choose to remain.)

I think the action list and number of moderators needed is:
ooo-commits - 2
ooo-dev - 1
ooo-issues - 2
ooo-notifications - 2
ooo-private - 2
ooo-security - 2
ooo-users - 2
ooo-users-fr - ?


Below I put a ? where I think we need people

ooo-announce
imacat
robweir - Rob did not include this in his list.
?

ooo-commits
danese - Mentor
robweir
?
?

ooo-dev
robweir
danese - mentor
pj
?
?

ooo-general-es
arielch
juanm...@gmail.com

ooo-general-ja
khirano
maho

ooo-geral-ptbr
bino28
filhocf
lcolui...@gmail.com

ooo-issues
danese - mentor
rubys - mentor
?
?

ooo-l10n
khirano
paolopoz
robweir
yo

ooo-marketing
bmcs
yo
jsc
jza
khirano
pj
robweir
si...@webmink.com

ooo-notifications
danese - mentor
rubys - mentor
?
?

ooo-private
robweir
danese - mentor
jsc
orcmid
? Louis?
?

ooo-progetto-it
dav...@flossconsulting.it
paolopoz
pescetti

ooo-qa
lilyzh...@gmail.com
maho
robweir

ooo-security
malte
robweir
?
Who is left on this list as subscribers?

ooo-users
khirano
orcmid
pj
robweir
si...@webmink.com
?

ooo-users-de
mikeadvo
rbircher

ooo-users-fr
ericb2 - resigned from ppmc / committer.
vince...@laposte.net
water...@sunrise.ch
What are we doing with the French list. Anyone know?

ooo-utenti-it
dav...@flossconsulting.it
paolopoz
pescetti

Regards,
Dave






--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Updated Stats page

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/23/2012 12:14 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Marcus (OOo)  wrote:

Am 10/23/2012 08:48 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:


On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:10 PM, jan iversen
wrote:


A report would serve the same purpose, and posted with regular intervals
(like 1 month), with figures based on e.g. last month, last half year.



OK.  I posted a snapshot of the downloads since AOO 3.4.0 was released
back in May:

http://www.openoffice.org/stats/countries.html



Great.

Is also possible to have a row with hte total sum on the top of the table?
Then we would have a (more or less) up-to-date number in a prominent place.



I could certainly add a total there, but this page will probably be
updated less frequently than this one:

http://www.openoffice.org/stats/downloads.html

Of course, we could try to get into a regular update schedule where we
update both pages  on the same schedule...

-Rob


All good! and thanks for making a new stats main page!

http://www.openoffice.org/stats/

so, I will go ahead and add this to /download/index.html as promised, 
AND, I do think some appropriate wording on


http://www.openoffice.org/why/

would be a good idea as well...






One option would be to repeat this in 3 months or whatever, and add a
new column and % difference for each country.



Sounds good.

Marcus





On 23 October 2012 18:00, Rob Weir  wrote:


On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:23 AM, jan iversen
wrote:


+1, fine page. Monthly should be enough.

Would it be worth to consider to include the country discussion (e.g.


list


top 5 countries, and the total number) ?



I'll take a look to see if there is anything interesting here.  But my
guess is the top 5 countries will be static over time, and would not
be an interesting chart or a time series.  But maybe we could
periodically post a table of these numbers?   I have a pythons script
that gathers these numbers and generates a CSV report.  It would be
easy to have it write out an HTML page instead.

-Rob


Jan.

On 23 October 2012 17:20, Rob Weir  wrote:


I've moved the download stats to its own page:
http://www.openoffice.org/stats/downloads.html

That allowed me to give a fuller description of what the stats are,
how they were gathered, etc.  I think we should aim for this level of
detail and transparency in any claims we make.

This move then allowed me to clean up the Stats home page a little,
and include links to other charts we have, as well as add a section
(with caveats) on 3rd party stats:   http://www.openoffice.org/stats/

If anyone has ideas for other relevant stats that might be interested,
I'd be interested in adding more.  I can help on the data wrangling
and charting side.I'd love to have a regular chart on wiki and
forums traffic or edits or posts or whatever.  This doesn't need to be
totally automated.  For example, it could be something where someone
volunteers to run a monthly report and posts that new stat once a
month.


Regards,

-Rob







--

Ciao

Marcus


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Need new logo for openoffice.apache.org

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/22/2012 11:59 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

Alexandro Colorado wrote:

On 10/22/12, Kay Schenk wrote:

hmmm...well, OK. I think I remember something like this now. Should we
use Alexandro's new one at:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/ApacheOpenOfficeTM.svg


AFAIK there was no resolution on the fonts, the discussion ended on
asking Michael Acevedo, but he never replied.


Exactly. And this means we cannot use Alexandro's SVG since it is not a
100% reproduction of the bitmap by Michael Acevedo (the orb is perfectly
done in SVG and it is the only SVG version of the orb we have available,
since we never received one from Oracle; but the text has a slightly
different formatting).


OK. Yes, I realized that and thought if we DID use Alexandro's version, 
we should regenerate the images based on that. In any case, I will leave 
what we have in place on http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/svg/.


It is not the original svg but can be used to generate additional copies.

a longer discussion topis is ensuing I see...


We have two separate issues here:

1) Collecting and consolidating all versions of the logo we are using;
here a 95% accuracy is not acceptable. These versions should be placed
under http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/ or anyway under SVN.

2) Collecting proposals that can be useful as inspiration for a new
visual identity; here it is of course acceptable to have variants of the
"official" logos, but these should remain proposals and be placed in the
wiki or such, possibly in pages that do not confuse a reader who types
"OpenOffice logo" in a search engine.

Regards,
   Andrea.


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Need new logo for openoffice.apache.org

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/22/2012 03:42 PM, RGB ES wrote:

2012/10/23 Kay Schenk 




On 10/22/2012 02:18 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:


On 20/10/2012 imacat wrote:


I happen to have a 300x100 logo at hand, so I updated it.  Feel free
to revise it if you feel my uploaded logo is ugly.



I think that this was good as a temporary solution, but that we should
delete it now, since it has different colors and we don't want
"variants" (in fonts, colors) of the chosen logo around unless they are
clearly marked as proposals.

The reference logo is
http://www.openoffice.org/**images/AOO_logos/AOO-logo-**hires.jpg<http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/AOO-logo-hires.jpg>
and apparently it was supplied as a JPG; PNG would be much better, SVG
would be totally better, but the source so far is this one and it was
contributed by Michael Acevedo. What we have in SVG and (possibly) PNG
was derived from this one.



svg should be:

http://www.openoffice.org/**images/AOO_logos/svg/OOo_**Website_v2_copy.svg<http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/svg/OOo_Website_v2_copy.svg>



AFAIK, that svg is just a "container" for the raster image: it do not
contain a vector image.

Regards
Ricardo


hmmm...well, OK. I think I remember something like this now. Should we 
use Alexandro's new one at:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/ApacheOpenOfficeTM.svg









should we give it a better name?




The logo at
http://incubator.apache.org/**openofficeorg/images/300x100_**dj_trans.png<http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/images/300x100_dj_trans.png>
has different colors and different fonts so I would remove it now that
it is no longer used at 
http://incubator.apache.org/**openofficeorg/<http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/>;
 or
is it still being used somewhere?

Regards,
Andrea.



--
--**--**

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
  dealt with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Another logo needs updating: "Get it here!"

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/20/2012 12:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-it-here.html

This logo has an integrated incubator reference in it as well.

I think Drew made the most recent version of this.

Anyone have the source, or can easily respin it without the "incubator" block?

Thanks!

-Rob


oh boy...while looking around just now, it seems we DO have an svg file 
of Get it here! *without* incubator on it --


http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/svg/get-aoo_300x100.svg

if this is any use ...





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Need new logo for openoffice.apache.org

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/22/2012 02:18 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

On 20/10/2012 imacat wrote:

I happen to have a 300x100 logo at hand, so I updated it.  Feel free
to revise it if you feel my uploaded logo is ugly.


I think that this was good as a temporary solution, but that we should
delete it now, since it has different colors and we don't want
"variants" (in fonts, colors) of the chosen logo around unless they are
clearly marked as proposals.

The reference logo is
http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/AOO-logo-hires.jpg
and apparently it was supplied as a JPG; PNG would be much better, SVG
would be totally better, but the source so far is this one and it was
contributed by Michael Acevedo. What we have in SVG and (possibly) PNG
was derived from this one.


svg should be:

http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/svg/OOo_Website_v2_copy.svg

should we give it a better name?



The logo at
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/images/300x100_dj_trans.png
has different colors and different fonts so I would remove it now that
it is no longer used at http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ ; or
is it still being used somewhere?

Regards,
   Andrea.


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

[PROPOSAL] download statistics

[Kay Schenk]

Are we interested in emphasizing our download statistics more by putting 
a link to:


http://www.openoffice.org/stats/

in the
"Additional Information" list on:

http://www.openoffice.org/download/index.html

My thought is we could add various types of download stats to the 
current "stats" page (or link to them at Sourceforge).



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Why a mailing list is superior to any web-based "forum"

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/21/2012 01:24 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:

markmail carries all apache lists and
has a great search interface.



Yes it does! I use it a lot!








From: Alexandro Colorado 
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer 
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: Why a mailing list is superior to any web-based "forum"

On 10/21/12, Joe Schaefer  wrote:

FWIW this is the only Apache project where
forums are supported, and if a good case
can be made as to why some mailing list
traffic would be better served on the forums,
go for it.  It's just that mailing lists
are where we expect project decisions to
be made because we have standard ways of
providing those archived messages to members,
who would expect similar things from forum
decision-making processes.


That said I would have expected a better mailing list interface, the
current one lacks even a search bar, let alone some advanced search.
OOo used to have also a pretty basic way of searching through the
mailing list but eve that, was more helpful.

Are these mailing list archieved externally by nabble/gmane or something else?

FYI LibO also expend many mosquitoes lifecycle on this topic. They do
provide a forumesque interface for mailing list.
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/
and
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/nabble-mailing-list-interface/

Nabble website:
http://www.nabble.com/









From: Rob Weir 
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Why a mailing list is superior to any web-based "forum"

On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 3:08 PM, RGB ES  wrote:

2012/10/21 Fernando Cassia 


On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 6:59 AM, David McKay 
wrote:

Technical aspects are bets handled through a mailing list; general
user
questions are best handled through a forum.


I agree that a dual approach makes everyone happy.

I should have renamed it "why mailing lists should never be
killed" it was typed after reading one list member say "why a
mailing list?".

FC

--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
revolutionary act
- George Orwell



One reasons why this "holy war" between MLs and Forums goes on and on is
because both sides try to "make things clear for everyone"(1) explaining
why their position is the best one... and both sides are at the same time
right and wrong! Both solutions have pros and cons: there is no perfect
system, that's all.

We have MLs for development and "decision making" and we have Forums for
user support. Please, let's go on with life: holy wars are tiresome.

Thanks

(1) There is a Spanish saying that goes "no aclares que oscureces" but
I'm
not sure how to translate it into English... something like "do not
clarify
that you are making it darker" is near, but not exactly the same ;)



In English we sometimes say, "Everyone complains about the weather,
but no one does anything about it."There will also be some topics
that generate debate but without any practical conclusions.

-Rob


Regards
Ricardo







--
Alexandro Colorado
PPMC Apache OpenOffice
http://es.openoffice.org





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Another logo needs updating: "Get it here!"

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/20/2012 03:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 5:09 PM, RGB ES  wrote:

2012/10/20 Rob Weir 


On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 3:40 PM, jan iversen 
wrote:

If we want to have the same logo all over, respin I assume would not do

the

job ?



Sorry for the slang.   By "respin" I meant taking whatever vector
source file (SVG, perhaps) that Drew used for that button originally,
and then remove the "incubator" block and regenerate a bitmap for us
to put on the website.

It was intentional, at least at the time, for the "Get it here!"
graphic to be distinct from the official project logo.  This was to
avoid diluting the trademark.  We wanted the official project logo to
be associated with the official website.  So if users saw it they knew
they were dealing with an official project site.   We would then have
thematically-related logos that could be used for various affiliate
uses, such as on personal websites.  That was the purpose of the "Get
it here!" logo.

But that was then, this is now.   As I understand it now, ASF policy
has evolved in this area, and it appears permissible for websites to
use logo, provided they follow these rules:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/faq/#integrateswith

But IMHO, the "Get it here!" button is still useful, since its size
and aspect ratio, as well as the beveling, make it ideal for a
download button.

-Rob


jan.

On 20 October 2012 21:23, Rob Weir  wrote:


http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/get-it-here.html

This logo has an integrated incubator reference in it as well.

I think Drew made the most recent version of this.

Anyone have the source, or can easily respin it without the "incubator"
block?

Thanks!

-Rob





What about the one we use on the forums?

http://forum.openoffice.org/es/forum/styles/prosilver/imageset/AOO-download.png

It is the same from the web site plus the traditional "download arrow" on
top of the orb. Simple and clear.



It certainly could be the basis of a download button. But in its
current form it is flat, not really a "button".  Compare with Drew's
"Get it here!" button, with the beveled edges, etc.


Well hopefully the source for "Get it here" will turn up soonish...it's 
really very nice.





Regards
Ricardo


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Need new logo for openoffice.apache.org

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 12:03 PM, jan iversen wrote:

> A legal question in that respect of logo, is it legal if I write on my
> personal blog that I help AOO and use the logo with a link to
> openoffice.org?
>
> Jan.
>

Jan--

In my opinion, the short answer is "yes"...see general trademark use on:

 http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/#guidelines

The guidelines on the use of the Apache feather apply to the Apache
OpenOffice logo as well, *and*, it has the "tm" mark in it. But, do, if you
use set it up so it links to either:

http://www.openoffice.org/

-- or --

http://openoffice.apache.org

Maybe wait a day to do this to see if there are any dissenting opinions to
this, though.

>
>
> On 20 October 2012 20:49, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 10:49 AM, RGB ES  wrote:
> > > > 2012/10/20 jan iversen 
> > > >
> > > >> I really like the logo on the openOffice.org site, it is (at least
> to
> > > me)
> > > >> more modern and eye-catching.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> We should only use 1 logo, that is simpler and for the end-user more
> > > >> understandable.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > +1 too.
> > > >
> > >
> > > OK.  I changed the openoffice.apache.org website to use the same logo
> > > as www.openoffice.org.
> > >
> > > But I am sympathetic to Alexandro's view that we need across-the-board
> > > greater consistency on branding.  We'll get there, I think, but it
> > > will take time.
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Ricardo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Jan.
> > > >>
> > > >> On 20 October 2012 16:28, Rob Weir  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > See upper left here:  http://openoffice.apache.org
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The "Incubating" is integrated into the graphic.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > The underlying file is here:  a PNG with transparent background.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/images/300x100_dj_trans.png
> > > >> >
> > > >> > What do we want to do here?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > 1) Edit that graphic to remove "Incubating"?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > 2) Use a different graphic?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Note that the http://www.openoffice.org/ site uses a different
> form
> > > of
> > > >> > the branding.  Are we intentionally using two different logos
> here?
> > > >> > Do we want to continue this?
> > >
> >
> > Well most of the artwork is done, is just a matter of doing the commit to
> > the right branch. Linux has png files so they are taken from the site,
> > which also has the .ico and icm for windows and mac. Besides that, I
> wonder
> > what else would be needed.
> > Example Writer:
> > Linux:
> >
> >
> http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/gifs/Icons/refresh_icons/pngs/OOo_Writer_48x48.png
> > Windows:
> >
> >
> http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/gifs/Icons/refresh_icons/icos/OOo_Writer.ico
> > OSX: Not required
> > Mime-type:
> >
> >
> http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/gifs/Icons/ODF_icons/ODF_textdocument_256x256.png
> >
> > The original discussion on the lack of color of OO3 generated different
> > options which were ignored, should we adopt them now?
> > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=112141
> >
> > There was some icons donated on issuezzilla:
> > https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=118820 (not impressed)
> >
> >
> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -Rob
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexandro Colorado
> > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > http://es.openoffice.org
> >
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/19/2012 01:07 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

I am thinking about what new project volunteers need to get started.
Obviously there are area-specific things.  For example, developers
need to know how to download and build.  Translation volunteers need
to understand Pootle, etc.  But there are also some basic things that
all volunteers should probably do.

Although we have all of this information (or at least most of it) on
the website or wikis or mailing list archives, it is scattered all
over the place.  I think it would be good if we could collect this
information (or at least links to this information) into one place and
put a linear order behind it, a step of specific steps we want new
volunteers to take.

Now, I can hear the objections already -- you can't tell volunteers
what to do.  That is why they are volunteers.  You can't regiment
them, etc.  This is true.  But at the scale we need to operate at --
I'm aiming to attract dozens of new volunteers on the project by the
end of the year -- we need some structure.  So what can we do to make
their first 2 weeks in the project easier for them, and easier for us?

One idea:  Think of the new volunteer startup tasks in terms of
"stages" or "levels", a defined set of reading and other activities
that leads them to acquire basic skills in our community.

For example:



To make it more concrete, this is what "Level 1" might look like:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/level-1.html

-Rob


This is very good! I esp like the last part about providing a way for 
volunteers to "sign up" if you will. This will be a nice touch.


I'm also wondering if there's some way to tie this in to our current 
"Help Wanted" page:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted

Maybe someone has some ideas?




Level 1 tasks:

1) Read the following web pages on the ASF, roles at Apache and the Apache Way

2) Sign up for the following accounts that every volunteer should
have:  ooo-announce, ooo-dev, ooo-users,  MWiki, CWiki, BZ, Forums

3) Read this helpful document on hints for managing your inbox with
rules and folders

4) Read this code of conduct page on list etiquette

5) Send a note to ooo-dev list and introduce yourself

6) Edit this wiki page  containing project volunteers. Add your name
and indicate that you have completed Level 1.


Level 2 tasks:

1) Using the Apache CMS in anonymous mode

2) Readings on decision making at Apache

3) Readings on project life cycle and roles within the AOO project

4) Introduction to the various functional groups within the project:
development, qa, marketing, UX, documentation, support, localization,
etc.

5) Pick one or more functional groups that you want to help with.
Edit the volunteer wiki and list them.  Also indicate that you have
now completed Level 2.

Get the idea?  After Level 2 this then could branch off into
area-specific lists of start up tasks:  how to download and build.
How to submit patches.  How to update a translation.  How to define a
new test case.

Is any one interested in helping with this?

-Rob


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Marketing events: Brochure? Newsletter?

[Kay Schenk]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Nancy K  wrote:

> Hi! I have been keeping up with the discussions, but unable to participate
> much lately, unfortunately.  In the marketing department, is there a
> newsletter or brochure that could be distributed at any event?
>
> I am thinking that a design could be approved, then placed on the website
> so that anyone representing Apache OpenOffice could print it out. This
> might be an example of a way to fund an event - using funds for the paper
> and ink or professional printing.  The vote to offer funds for an event
> could be proposed for approval or disapproval.  If approved the design
> posted could be in a file format that could be printed directly or sent to
> a printer.
>
>
> Nancy
>

Nancy --

I think an downloadable "brochure" would be a super idea! Unfortunately,
the marketing information via  http://www.openoffice.org/marketing/ -- "How
to get Involved"

seems out of date. Please join the marketing mailing list (see info:
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/mailing-lists.html#marketing-mailing-list),
suggest some ideas, and see what others think!


>
>  Nancy  Web Design
> Free 24 hour pass to lynda.com.
> Video courses on SEO, CMS,
> Design and Software Courses
>
>
>
>
> 
>  From: Albino B Neto 
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Sent: Tuesday, October 9, 2012 5:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Marketing events
>
> Hi
>
> I'm from Brazil and there various events: FISL, LatinoWare, Revista
> Espirito Livre and others spread throughout BR.
>
> You could have a fund for member "official" AOO, so you can attend the
> AOO speaking, lecturing, talking etc.. But this must be carefully
> discussed.
>
> This member can attend these events that have availability and time
> available. It'll be like us, being voluntary, but that talk of AOO
> events.
>
> Albino




-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [WWW]: shared ideas and looking for feedback

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

> Hi,
>
> yesterday I had problems to find a good place for the German translation
> of the graduation press release. And I thought that it is probably a
> good idea to cleanup the whole page with a clear and well defined
> structure. I know that there is work ongoing and that we move already in
> this direction. But nevertheless I would like to share the things I have
> in mind to check if it is aligned with the already ongoing work or if it
> makes sense at all.
>
> 1. a clear structure for the English content as well as the translated
> pages.
>
> .../index.hmtl
> .../de/index.html
> .../it/index.html
> ...
> .../press/msg_20121019.html
> .../de/press/msg_20121019.html
> .../it/press/msg_20121019.html
> ...
>
> Means we have for all pages a translated version in the related sub
> directory. Same path and same name only the content is translated. This
> makes it easy to find the related translation for any files.
>
> We can also use Pootle to do the translation of the web content in the
> future.
>

Definitely good ideas.  A defined structure for all areas would be very
useful. Do we need to start a wiki page to further elaborate, or should we
just go ahead with the press area for now? Opinions?


> 2. we have special news areas where local communities can spread further
> news relevant to their local activities, e.g. local conferences, events.
> But in general we have the same content on all pages. Other local
> community relevant content should be moved in the wiki. The main idea is
> to have a smaller but cleaner and well structured and organized user
> portal www.openoffice.org. Community internal things should be move on
> openoffice.apache.org or the wiki.
>
> I know it is not really new and it is probably more to remind myself but
> I am interested to hear others opinion.
>
> Regards
>
> Juergen
>
>
>


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [UX]: potential new default color for application background

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/12/2012 05:29 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 09:23:28AM -0300, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote:

That said, AOO look really horrible in dark themes, but that's another
issue :)


http://people.apache.org/~arielch/images/startcenterhc.png
ugly, at least on Linux


this  would be a definite NO for me!

as for Juergen's original post with colors -- either one would work for 
me, and maybe becasue of my color configuration, they don't look much 
different. :/





Regards



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [DISCUSS] defining roles for management, coordination, work items...

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/17/2012 10:35 PM, Kevin Grignon wrote:

KG01 - see comments online

On Oct 18, 2012, at 5:24 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 10/16/2012 03:40 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:



On 10/16/2012 02:47 PM, Rob Weir wrote:


On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:


[top posting -- old discussion/business]

I just created a little wiki schematic page based on this discussion at:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Project+Management+Roles

which will make it easy for us to add roles, people to roles, etc.
[The second column, intended for actual names, is blank so far.]



I'm not really sure what problem we're solving here.



Better defining activities that we do/need to do.
Hopefully soliciting/inviting individuals to take ownership of some of these
activities.



But we can have a full list of roles on the wiki, but not define a
single task...   But maybe this is the first step.


yes...and an oversight in my initial enthusiasm. Obviously, it is difficult to 
determine if any list is sufficient unless the roles are defined. :/





One way of making this scale and be more self-maintaining is something like:

1) Work with Infra to create a new issue tracking DB for the project.
Maybe use JIRA rather than BZ.  This new DB would be for tracking
tasks, not for tracking bugs.   (Why a separate DB?  So we don't drive
QA team crazy.)


KG01 - Rob, I like the idea of a new system that supports scope items in 
addition to work items. We could benefit from more PPM tooling.


Kevin--

Maybe you could raise this as an additional issue or a separate 
discussion item, and explain to the community what you mean by this. I 
don't know how many folks involved here know what "PPM tooling" is.






2) In the database we put in all the tasks that we know needs to get
done, from running a RAT scan before a release, to verifying the new
Norwegian translation, to UX exploration tasks, etc.  There are
probably 100+ tasks that we could think of, more than would be fun to
track on the wiki.


KG01 - In fact, I'm already in the midst of populating a ux opportunity backlog 
as BZ does not serve my business needs.



3) Project members can comment on issues and take ownership of them.

4) If a project member is focused deeply on a specific issue, then
they can set themselves as the default "owner" for that issue
category.

In this way, roles are defined implicitly by what tasks you claim and
what categories you set yourself as the default owner.


KG01 - agreed, less role oriented and more work item oriented.


"work items" pretty much determine role I would think except in some 
specialized cases at Apache.






The nice thing about this approach is it helps with the communication
challenges of a large project.  None of us can read everything on
every mailing list.  But we can all read the JIRA notifications that
come directly to us as an issue owner.


Well this part is certainly true. It's difficult to overlook what you signed up 
for, when you get notifications.



Another nice thing about this approach is it lets us set up a backlog
of things that are "nice to do someday" but where we have no
volunteer.  For example, spell checking the website, or updating the
Indonesian translation.  We don't even have a person in the role of an
Indonesian Translator today.  But if the tasks are defined in JIRA
then we can the unassigned tasks as a way to recruit new volunteers.
It makes it easier to see where we need help.


KG01 - backlogs also allow is to create candidate release and iteration plans



I think the JIRA/BZ approach definitely has merit in the long run.
For now, I think it would be advantageous to just flesh out the page a bit more 
to supply definitions and see what we're missing in terms of typical 
actions/roles that we take on, or should be taken on.

And, although people could indeed "enroll" for tasks right on the page, I'm not 
explicitly suggesting that as some categories, for example, developer, would have MANY 
entries. However, I do think it is valuable for site visitors to at least identify 
mailing list moderators, and maybe BZ, wiki, etc. admins.








For example, if person X is assigned role Y, I assume we don't want to
encourage people to contact person X directly for questions or
assistance.  We should do our work on ooo-dev.

I assume we also want to avoid the type of hard-coded roles that
existed with OOo, where the names, personal email addresses and even
phone numbers of community manages, press contacts, etc., were on
hundreds of web pages.



Well these are good points actually.

Yes, we should absolutely continue discussions on ooo-dev. I was thinking of
putting in names for the roles. The "roles" are not "hard" as you suggest
here. We don't hire people and they don't have "officia

Re: [DISCUSS] defining roles for management, coordination, work items...

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/16/2012 03:40 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:



On 10/16/2012 02:47 PM, Rob Weir wrote:


On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:


[top posting -- old discussion/business]

I just created a little wiki schematic page based on this discussion at:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Project+Management+Roles

which will make it easy for us to add roles, people to roles, etc.
[The second column, intended for actual names, is blank so far.]



I'm not really sure what problem we're solving here.



Better defining activities that we do/need to do.
Hopefully soliciting/inviting individuals to take ownership of some of these
activities.



But we can have a full list of roles on the wiki, but not define a
single task...   But maybe this is the first step.


yes...and an oversight in my initial enthusiasm. Obviously, it is 
difficult to determine if any list is sufficient unless the roles are 
defined. :/






One way of making this scale and be more self-maintaining is something like:

1) Work with Infra to create a new issue tracking DB for the project.
Maybe use JIRA rather than BZ.  This new DB would be for tracking
tasks, not for tracking bugs.   (Why a separate DB?  So we don't drive
QA team crazy.)

2) In the database we put in all the tasks that we know needs to get
done, from running a RAT scan before a release, to verifying the new
Norwegian translation, to UX exploration tasks, etc.  There are
probably 100+ tasks that we could think of, more than would be fun to
track on the wiki.

3) Project members can comment on issues and take ownership of them.

4) If a project member is focused deeply on a specific issue, then
they can set themselves as the default "owner" for that issue
category.

In this way, roles are defined implicitly by what tasks you claim and
what categories you set yourself as the default owner.

The nice thing about this approach is it helps with the communication
challenges of a large project.  None of us can read everything on
every mailing list.  But we can all read the JIRA notifications that
come directly to us as an issue owner.


Well this part is certainly true. It's difficult to overlook what you 
signed up for, when you get notifications.




Another nice thing about this approach is it lets us set up a backlog
of things that are "nice to do someday" but where we have no
volunteer.  For example, spell checking the website, or updating the
Indonesian translation.  We don't even have a person in the role of an
Indonesian Translator today.  But if the tasks are defined in JIRA
then we can the unassigned tasks as a way to recruit new volunteers.
It makes it easier to see where we need help.


I think the JIRA/BZ approach definitely has merit in the long run.
For now, I think it would be advantageous to just flesh out the page a 
bit more to supply definitions and see what we're missing in terms of 
typical actions/roles that we take on, or should be taken on.


And, although people could indeed "enroll" for tasks right on the page, 
I'm not explicitly suggesting that as some categories, for example, 
developer, would have MANY entries. However, I do think it is valuable 
for site visitors to at least identify mailing list moderators, and 
maybe BZ, wiki, etc. admins.









For example, if person X is assigned role Y, I assume we don't want to
encourage people to contact person X directly for questions or
assistance.  We should do our work on ooo-dev.

I assume we also want to avoid the type of hard-coded roles that
existed with OOo, where the names, personal email addresses and even
phone numbers of community manages, press contacts, etc., were on
hundreds of web pages.



Well these are good points actually.

Yes, we should absolutely continue discussions on ooo-dev. I was thinking of
putting in names for the roles. The "roles" are not "hard" as you suggest
here. We don't hire people and they don't have "official" positions. Maybe
more of a way of providing information both to the outside and (P)PMC.




I suggest keeping this light-weight, non-exclusive, open to all who
are interested, etc.



No problem with that of course. PLEASE self-sign up! This is encouraged!
I was tempted to assign Juergen permanent "release manager" but thought
better of it. :}


  So more like "areas of interest" or "contact


point" rather than hard-coded roles.



Well, OK. Still I think explicitly  defining roles is good for the project
in some ways. It will show us what types of activities "someone" needs to
take ownership of.


   Remember, people do go on


vacation, volunteers come and go, real life intervenes.  So we cannot
"assign" someone a role in the same way we can an employee.



Exactly, we need overlap!







Rob referenced the following pa

Re: New wiki page: Graduation Infrastructure Changes

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/17/2012 08:53 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

A new wiki page.  I created it now because I needed the URL for a blog
post.  But is is only a placeholder now.

I'm hoping we can track items similar to how we did during the
migration from Sun to Apache infrastructure, and keep the status of
the migration up-to-date here:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Graduation+Infrastructure+Changes



I've added some items to the wiki page:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Graduation+Infrastructure+Changes

Volunteers are welcome.

Some items might require coordination.  For example, website updates
and SVN tree migration.  What would happen if I checked out our
current ooo-site, spent a day updating email addresses, etc., and
before I checked it in the SVN tree was moved to a higher level part
of the tree, one that I had not checked out?  (e.g, I check out
A/B/C/D and then someone else moves D to A/B/D.  Can my changes be
merged?).  If this is an issue, then we'll need to agree on how we
stage these activities.

-Rob


I was assuming that we could do SOME items, i.e. web site(s) changes 
when the final vote is taken, and when we get verification of 
graduation. So, references to "incubating" on sites could be changed.
This would pertain to items  #3 and #4 on the list which I think could 
be done first.
(Maybe we should verify this with someone but I've seen TLP web sites 
that still reference "incubator" in the site name.)


The other items, yes, need quite a bit of coordination and communication 
among ourselves and infrastructure.


I'll edit this wiki page when I get a chance later today.





-Regards,

-Rob


--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Linux32 buildbot (was Re: [BUILD] downloading of resources during bootstrap)

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/16/2012 02:45 PM, Herbert Duerr wrote:

On 10/16/2012 09:13 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:

On 10/16/2012 05:07 AM, Herbert Duerr wrote:

Can someone with karma on buildslave20 please do this?
[...]

If this is a backend thing (on the vm for the buildbot), a jira ticket
to infra is probably needed.


According to the FAQ on contacting infra ("Do ask in your project
whether someone has the karma to implement the requested change before
asking infra") and knowing that we have members with the karma I wanted
to ask here first, as this could save a lot of time.

Herbert


ah, I see...OK.  I was not aware of this.

--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [DISCUSS] defining roles for management, coordination, work items...

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/16/2012 02:47 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:

[top posting -- old discussion/business]

I just created a little wiki schematic page based on this discussion at:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Project+Management+Roles

which will make it easy for us to add roles, people to roles, etc.
[The second column, intended for actual names, is blank so far.]



I'm not really sure what problem we're solving here.


Better defining activities that we do/need to do.
Hopefully soliciting/inviting individuals to take ownership of some of 
these activities.




For example, if person X is assigned role Y, I assume we don't want to
encourage people to contact person X directly for questions or
assistance.  We should do our work on ooo-dev.

I assume we also want to avoid the type of hard-coded roles that
existed with OOo, where the names, personal email addresses and even
phone numbers of community manages, press contacts, etc., were on
hundreds of web pages.


Well these are good points actually.

Yes, we should absolutely continue discussions on ooo-dev. I was 
thinking of putting in names for the roles. The "roles" are not "hard" 
as you suggest here. We don't hire people and they don't have "official" 
positions. Maybe more of a way of providing information both to the 
outside and (P)PMC.




I suggest keeping this light-weight, non-exclusive, open to all who
are interested, etc.


No problem with that of course. PLEASE self-sign up! This is encouraged!
I was tempted to assign Juergen permanent "release manager" but thought 
better of it. :}


 So more like "areas of interest" or "contact

point" rather than hard-coded roles.


Well, OK. Still I think explicitly  defining roles is good for the 
project in some ways. It will show us what types of activities "someone" 
needs to take ownership of.


  Remember, people do go on

vacation, volunteers come and go, real life intervenes.  So we cannot
"assign" someone a role in the same way we can an employee.


Exactly, we need overlap!






Rob referenced the following page as part of this thread:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ppmc-faqs.html#status

Which probably needs updating or  Of course, this is one of the items
that needs to go in the "Graduation checklist" just started today as well.




Note this page as well, which goes in the other direction, mapping
person to area:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/people.html

It would suck if we had to track the same information in both places.
Maybe there is a way we can track this in one place?

Maybe add a "role" column to the "people" page?  I dunno.


A good idea as well. We could discuss this...I had actually forgotten 
all about the "people" page :/. Should we keep using it?




-Rob





On 09/09/2012 11:02 PM, Rob Weir wrote:


On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:51 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 09/08/2012 02:15 PM, tj wrote:


On 9/8/2012 13:50, Dave Fisher wrote:



On Sep 7, 2012, at 6:50 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:


Hi,

I would like to give my thoughts on defining roles for management,
... as the thread "Specific actions needed for developing the
community" tends to become a general one on this topic.

For me we, the AOO community, need to have an idea about the
different roles which need to be fullfilled to drive our project:
- role of developer
- role of forum admin
- role of tester
- role of UX practitioners
- role of release manager
- role of community manager


 internal / project(?)


- role of marketing person


 external / ecosystem(?)


- role of press contact
- role of distribution manager
- role of buildbot admin
- ...



role of translators (l10n)
role of infrastructure



role of moderators for various MLs
role of Mwiki admin (mostly me, now; help welcome)
role of BZ admin (doing a little of that, just added Dave McKay)
/tj/





  From my point of view these are more or less areas of the project
which need to be fullfilled with certain actions and coordination.
What I do not believe is that we need to assign certain individuals
on these roles (*).
I agree with Jürgen that certain individuals will grow their
expertise in a certain role/area and as a contributor will take
action or raise flag due to lack of resources, knowlegde, ...
I think we already had quite a couple of good examples for such a
habit. But, I also have to admit that for certain other roles we did
not yet succeed as we could and should.
And here comes the responsibility of the (P)PMC - its management
duty, if you want. The (P)PMC as a group takes care that the roles
are fullfilled. E.g., by raising a corresponding gap on ooo-dev, by
calling for discussion and volunteers, by leveraging new and/or
established members.
My thoughts are also based on the fact that Apache had only two

Re: [DISCUSS] defining roles for management, coordination, work items...

[Kay Schenk]

[top posting -- old discussion/business]

I just created a little wiki schematic page based on this discussion at:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Project+Management+Roles

which will make it easy for us to add roles, people to roles, etc.
[The second column, intended for actual names, is blank so far.]

Rob referenced the following page as part of this thread:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ppmc-faqs.html#status

Which probably needs updating or  Of course, this is one of the 
items that needs to go in the "Graduation checklist" just started today 
as well.



On 09/09/2012 11:02 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Sep 9, 2012, at 2:51 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 09/08/2012 02:15 PM, tj wrote:

On 9/8/2012 13:50, Dave Fisher wrote:


On Sep 7, 2012, at 6:50 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:


Hi,

I would like to give my thoughts on defining roles for management,
... as the thread "Specific actions needed for developing the
community" tends to become a general one on this topic.

For me we, the AOO community, need to have an idea about the
different roles which need to be fullfilled to drive our project:
- role of developer
- role of forum admin
- role of tester
- role of UX practitioners
- role of release manager
- role of community manager

internal / project(?)

- role of marketing person

external / ecosystem(?)

- role of press contact
- role of distribution manager
- role of buildbot admin
- ...


role of translators (l10n)
role of infrastructure


role of moderators for various MLs
role of Mwiki admin (mostly me, now; help welcome)
role of BZ admin (doing a little of that, just added Dave McKay)
/tj/




 From my point of view these are more or less areas of the project
which need to be fullfilled with certain actions and coordination.
What I do not believe is that we need to assign certain individuals
on these roles (*).
I agree with Jürgen that certain individuals will grow their
expertise in a certain role/area and as a contributor will take
action or raise flag due to lack of resources, knowlegde, ...
I think we already had quite a couple of good examples for such a
habit. But, I also have to admit that for certain other roles we did
not yet succeed as we could and should.
And here comes the responsibility of the (P)PMC - its management
duty, if you want. The (P)PMC as a group takes care that the roles
are fullfilled. E.g., by raising a corresponding gap on ooo-dev, by
calling for discussion and volunteers, by leveraging new and/or
established members.
My thoughts are also based on the fact that Apache had only two roles
in a project to by assigned to a certain individual - the PMC chair
and the release manager.

As pointed out above, I think that we need to work out the need and
the working tasks for certain roles in our project. This work out is
from my point of view a community task which could or may be should
be driven by the current PPMC in order to demonstrate our
self-governance.


This is good. I think that there are four parts in no particular
order. We've done a lot of definition already. This is about
reorganizing and formalizing the arrangement. Some of these teams of
role players will be small and some large.

(1) Defining the role so that any volunteer can know how to start
helping.
(2) Defining who on the (P)PMC will have oversight with the charge of
guiding volunteers and identifying committers. This person should be a
player-coach and not a manager.
(3) Defining workflow around these roles. Different sets of roles will
need to work together.

(A) Developing a Release - developer, tester, ux, buildbot.
(B) Building / Passing a Release - buildbot, release, community.
(C) Distributing a Release - distribution, infrastructure,
marketing, press.
(D) Supporting Users - forum, tester, ux, community, marketing.

(4) What infrastructure the role uses.

I think that this should be documented in the incubator website at
least for overview and navigation about project roles. Each group that
self-organizes around a role should use whatever project resource
makes sense for them.

Regards,
Dave




Best regards, Oliver.




This thread is really tremendous work in my opinion! Both the roles and
the workflow groupings!

Documenting it on the incubator website would be most excellent.



If someone decides to create a new page for this they should be sure
to delete the existing page I created to track admins and moderators:

http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ppmc-faqs.html#moderator

(or we could just update that page)

Rob


(*) except the ones for the PMC chair and the release manager, of
course, as they are part of the Apache Way.









--

MzK

"We never sit anything out. We are cups, constantly and quietly
being filled.  The trick is, knowing how to tip ourselves over and
let the beautiful stuff out."
  

Re: Linux32 buildbot (was Re: [BUILD] downloading of resources during bootstrap)

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/16/2012 05:07 AM, Herbert Duerr wrote:

For the last few weeks the linux32 buildbot failed to produces binaries
due to failed downloads in the bootstrap step:
   perl: symbol lookup error: [...]
   Parser.so: undefined symbol: Perl_Istack_sp_ptr

On 02.10.2012 20:42, Andrew Rist wrote:

I'm mucking around with adding $agent->env_proxy; to download_ext_dep.pl
so that it punches through a proxy when present.  Hopefully this will go
part of the way toward fixing the issues.  (also - do agree that reload
of perl on linux32 may solve issues there)


Reloading perl might help indeed. Maybe even running
perl -MCPAN -e "upgrade HTML::Parser"
is sufficient...

Can someone with karma on buildslave20 please do this?

Herbert



If this is a backend thing (on the vm for the buildbot), a jira ticket 
to infra is probably needed.

--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [PROPOSAL][WWW] style and content changes to home page

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/14/2012 03:52 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:

Am 10/15/2012 12:29 AM, schrieb Rob Weir:

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 6:15 PM, Marcus (OOo)
wrote:

Am 10/14/2012 05:56 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:


On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Marcus (OOo)
wrote:


Am 10/14/2012 05:17 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:


On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Marcus (OOo)
wrote:



Am 10/14/2012 04:10 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:


On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Marcus (OOo)
wrote:




Am 10/10/2012 09:08 AM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:


On 09/10/2012 Kay Schenk wrote:





http://www.openoffice.org/test/ ...
I am invoking *lazy consensus* on these changes and put this in
place
sometime on Sat, PDT -- say 15:30, unless there are objections.






It's nice indeed. I only see the "Valid XHTML" icon positioned
a bit
too
high maybe... Is it wanted?
http://people.apache.org/~pescetti/tmp/ooo-www-test.png

And, by the way, clicking on it reveals that there are a
couple of
markup fixes to apply, but I don't know if those are due to
the CMS
or
to specific markup of the page.






Currenty it's 1 warning and 1 error. The warning comes because the
validator
uses a new HTML 5 checker which is still in Beta status. IMHO it's
irrelevant.

The error is due to the "PUBLISHER" tag in the link reference
(line
8).

Due to the following webpage "PUBLISHER" is no valid HTML style.
However
I
wouldn't change it as it seems to be used for Google index
referencing:



If you make it lower case "publisher" it should be OK.

-Rob





http://www.thoughtsfromgeeks.com/resources/2793-Rel-publisher-standard-HTML-markup-or.aspx


Marcus





I've made the change but this doesn't make a difference, see:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-links



Look at the detailed error message here:


http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3a%2f%2fwww.openoffice.org%2ftest%2f


It looks like the W3C Validator looks at more than the values in the
HTML specification.  They also look at the Microformats Wiki:



http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions


"publisher" is listed there.

Of course, that is what the error message says.  I have no idea if
the
Validator actually works that way ;-)




For me the Wiki says "do not use 'publisher', it's no longer valid
HTML
4.x
style":




Maybe you are not seeing what I am seeing.

The W3C Validator says:

"Syntax of link type valid for:
  A whitespace-separated list of link types listed as allowed on
   in the HTML specification or listed as an allowed
on   on
the Microformats wiki without duplicate keywords in the list. You can
register link types on the Microformats wiki yourself."

It links to this Microformats wiki page:


http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions


It says there:

" HTML5 link type extensions

The following values are registered as link type extensions per the
requirements in the WHATWG HTML spec and the requirements in the W3C
HTML5 spec. "

And in that table "publisher" is defined.



Yes, but as dropped. And for HTML 5 just proposed and not yet accepted.



No.  Look carefully.  There are two entries.  The one in the "dropped"
tabled is for an older meaning of "publisher".  But look again at the
first table.  "publisher" is still there and references the Google
definition.  So they dropped the old definition and added the a new


yes, but it's just "proposed". That means it's not yet valid.


one.  Net result is the error goes away if we just change the
attribute value to all lowercase.


As you can see with the staged version of the index page the error is
still there. ;-)


rel value | summary | defining specification | why dropped
---
publisher | identifies a hypertext link to a publisher |
HTML4dropped |
unknown

However, it could come back in HTML 5 as it's already proposed:

Keyword | Effect on link | Effect on a, area | Brief description |
Link
to
specification | Synonyms | Status
---
publisher | External Resource | Contextual External Resource |
indicate[s]
that the destination of that hyperlink is a metadata profile (e.g. a
social
/ real name profile like Google+) for the current page or portion
thereof. |
rel-publisher | proposed

And IMHO the validator recognizes this already.

But when deleting it from our webpage I can imagine what would happen.
;-),
so we should leave all as it is for the moment.



The question is whether we want to declare the page as HTML4, XHTML4
or HTML5.  Right now we don't declare anything specific.  So the



The page is already declared, as "XHTML 1.0 Strict", see the first
line in
the source file:

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd";>

But it se

Re: Ipad application

[Kay Schenk]

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
>
> .
> .
> .
>
> >
> >> > This reminds me...do we want to add "rollapp" to the porting page?
> >> >
> >> >  https://www.rollapp.com/OpenOffice
> >> >
> >>
> >> Maybe "on request"?   I think we'll drive ourselves crazy if we try to
> >> track down every book on OpenOffice, ever OpenOffice consultant or
> >> even every software extensions or derivative of OpenOffice.  I tried
> >> to do this once, and look what it did to me:
> >>
> >> http://www.robweir.com/blog/2010/11/the-legacy-of-openoffice-org.html
> >>
> >
> > It seems to have made you a graphic historian! :) Not so bad actually.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> But if we set up an "on request" policy, then we just need to write up
> >> a page with some instructions on how companies can submit such
> >> listings.
> >
> >
> > OK. Take a look at:
> >
> >  http://www.openoffice.org/porting/
> >
> > What would you say about the "Ports and distributions available now"
> column?
> > Should either of these have been "by request"?
> >
>
> IMHO, these are all good.  We're bootstrapping.  But we might be able
> to reduce the future maintenance if we add a note to that page, before
> the listings, saying:
>
> "The following list of 3rd party ports and distributions is made
> available as a service to the community.  The Apache OpenOffice
> project does not officially endorse or maintain these packages.   If
> you have a port or distribution that you want to be listed here please
> send the details to our mailing list at: d...@openoffice.apache.org"
>

This looks good to me...maybe start a [PROPOSAL] Lazy Consensus for it?


>
> This also has the benefit of publicly affirming that we're open to
> adding other listings.  Of course, we always have been open to that.
> But it is good to state so explicitly, like we do with books and
> consultants.
>
> -Rob
>
> >
> > This will be easier to maintain than us trying to pull such
> >> information in.
> >>
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Ipad application

[Kay Schenk]

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Wayne;
> >>
> >> I am not aware of anyone working with us on an iOS port.
> >>
> >> The IBM Lotus Symphony Viewer will work for read-only purposes:
> >>
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ibm-lotus-symphony-viewer/id482597218?mt=8
> >>
> >>
> >> And there's also RollApp:
> >>
> >> https://www.rollapp.com/OpenOffice
> >>
> >>
> >> cheers,
> >>
> >> Pedro.
> >>
> >
> > This reminds me...do we want to add "rollapp" to the porting page?
> >
> >  https://www.rollapp.com/OpenOffice
> >
>
> Maybe "on request"?   I think we'll drive ourselves crazy if we try to
> track down every book on OpenOffice, ever OpenOffice consultant or
> even every software extensions or derivative of OpenOffice.  I tried
> to do this once, and look what it did to me:
>
> http://www.robweir.com/blog/2010/11/the-legacy-of-openoffice-org.html
>

It seems to have made you a graphic historian! :) Not so bad actually.


>
> But if we set up an "on request" policy, then we just need to write up
> a page with some instructions on how companies can submit such
> listings.


OK. Take a look at:

 http://www.openoffice.org/porting/

What would you say about the "Ports and distributions available now" column?
Should either of these have been "by request"?


This will be easier to maintain than us trying to pull such
> information in.
>
> -Rob
>

>
> >
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> > From: Wayne R. Campbell
> >> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> > Cc:
> >> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 10:55 AM
> >> > Subject: Ipad application
> >> >
> >> > I have just bought an IPad and would like to load your word and
> >> spreadsheet
> >> > software. Do you have software for the IPad or do I have to buy
> >> something?
> >> >
> >> > Love the software!!!
> >> > Thanks
> >> >
> >> > Wayne Campbell
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> 
> > MzK
> >
> > "Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
> >  dealt  with a cat."
> > -- Robert Heinlein
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [PROPOSAL][WWW] style and content changes to home page

[Kay Schenk]

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Marcus (OOo)  wrote:

> Am 10/10/2012 05:29 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Andrea Pescetti**
>> wrote:
>>
>>  On 09/10/2012 Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>
>>>  http://www.openoffice.org/test/ <http://www.openoffice.org/**test/>
>>>> <http://www.openoffice.**org/test/ <http://www.openoffice.org/test/>>
>>>>  ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am  invoking *lazy consensus* on these changes and put this in place
>>>> sometime on Sat, PDT -- say 15:30, unless there are objections.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It's nice indeed. I only see the "Valid XHTML" icon positioned a bit too
>>> high maybe... Is it wanted?
>>> http://people.apache.org/~pescetti/tmp/ooo-www-test.png<http://people.apache.org/~**pescetti/tmp/ooo-www-test.png>
>>> <**http://people.apache.org/~**pescetti/tmp/ooo-www-test.png<http://people.apache.org/~pescetti/tmp/ooo-www-test.png>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> And, by the way, clicking on it reveals that there are a couple of markup
>>> fixes to apply, but I don't know if those are due to the CMS or to
>>> specific
>>> markup of the page.
>>>
>>>
>> hmmm...thanks for the feedback. Yes, the positioning can be changed and I
>> will look at the fixes it tags.
>>
>
> I've changed the positioning of the W3C validator logo to show it left
> aligned. IMHO it's looking better than stuck to the rightmost. I hope you
> don't mind.
>
> Marcus
>

Well I kind of like it off to the right better, but this isn't a big issue
for me.

As for the validator element itself...I would be in favor of removing it
entirely. It's only on the home page so what's the point unless we want to
add it to the footer area, so it would display on ALL pages.  Ah! I just
saw Rob's response! I'm all for removing this little graphic entirely as
well.

Yes, I too saw the "publisher" error, but decided to just leave it alone.


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Ipad application

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:

> Hi Wayne;
>
> I am not aware of anyone working with us on an iOS port.
>
> The IBM Lotus Symphony Viewer will work for read-only purposes:
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ibm-lotus-symphony-viewer/id482597218?mt=8
>
>
> And there's also RollApp:
>
> https://www.rollapp.com/OpenOffice
>
>
> cheers,
>
> Pedro.
>

This reminds me...do we want to add "rollapp" to the porting page?

 https://www.rollapp.com/OpenOffice


>
> - Original Message -
> > From: Wayne R. Campbell
> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 10:55 AM
> > Subject: Ipad application
> >
> > I have just bought an IPad and would like to load your word and
> spreadsheet
> > software. Do you have software for the IPad or do I have to buy
> something?
> >
> > Love the software!!!
> > Thanks
> >
> > Wayne Campbell
> >
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Graduation timeline: A reminder for project members, press and list observers

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> > From: Rob Weir 
> ...
> >>
> >>  As a minor update, the only observation we received so far (besides a
> >>  substantial number of +1 votes, no abstentions or -1) was that almost
> all
> >>  the proposed PMC members do not belong to other Apache projects; our
> > mentors
> >>  were asked if they perceived this as a problem, and we didn't get an
> > answer
> >>  from them so far.
> >>
> >
> > Hmmm I think there are several PMC members who are involved with
> > other areas of Apache:
> >
> > 1) Don is involved with ConCom, as well as working with Sally on Press
> > and Communications.
> >
> > 2) Others, like Oliver, Louis, etc., have been active in the ApacheCon
> planning.
> >
> > 3) Andrew,  Juergen and Raphael have worked closely with Infra on many
> > things.  There may be others.
> >
> > 4) In general I think we're comfortable working with Trademarks and
> > Legal Affairs on an ongoing basis.  This includes raising questions
> > and getting advice, but some, like Dennis, are active sharing what
> > they have learned as well.
> >
> > 5) Dave is involved with POI.  Don and Juergen are also on the PMC of
> > the ODF Toolkit.  I think Pedro said he was getting involved with a
> > new BeanShell project proposal.
> >
> > 6) There was the work moving the SPI funds to Apache that involved
> > coordinating with ASF Treasurer.
> >
> > So  I do not know whether it is accurate to say that no one but Dave
> > is "active in more than just the OO project".
> >
>
> The above is all mostly unrelated. I do think we should have included
> some of our mentors in the PMC.
>

It never occurred to me that any of them would have necessarily been
interested. It seemed curious to me that this should be pointed out
actually, but I have no former experience in how initial PMCs are
established.   Maybe it was mostly a concern due to our size and the extent
of our activities. We have the "roles" thread that Oliver started a while
back that should be documented on the planning wiki, and see if we've
forgotten anything, or want to document these activities more in depth.

As for me, I'm happy to see that Dave Fisher is included, and I'm sure we
can rely on him for advice, etc.


> This was a failure in the method we chose to determine the initial PMC:
> we chose based on project visibility/popularity and by their function our
> mentors have tried to remain with a low profile and intervene only when
> it was absolutely necessary.
>
> This is something relatively easy to fix though, let's hope it doesn't
> delay
> us too much.
>
> Pedro.
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Graduation timeline: A reminder for project members, press and list observers

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Issac Goldstand  wrote:

> On 12/10/2012 15:52, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> 2) Sending the proposed resolution to the board list per these
>> instructions:  http://incubator.apache.org/**guides/graduation.html#top-*
>> *level-board-proposal
>>
>> This probably needs to happen on Saturday, shortly after the 72-hour
>> PMC vote ends, if we are to get on the Board's agenda for Wednesday.
>> I'm assuming Andrea will take care of this, or delegate to someone
>> else if he is unavailable on Saturday.
>>
> Remember that this needs to hit board@ by Sunday to be included in the
> agenda for Wednesday, so if there's no ack by midnight Saturday by Andrea
> that it's been dealt with, a backup voulenteer would probably be a smart
> thing :)
>
>   Issac
>

@Rob...yes, we should not get ahead of ourselves. The Board's decision  at
the board meeting is the definitive one that will establish OpenOffice as a
TLP.

@Isaac...a backup would be a good idea and this person needs to be a
current PPMC member. As an FYI, a template for submission to the Board is
available on the Graduation page

http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#process

-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: At the sound of the beep...

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/11/2012 11:03 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

At the sound of the beep Apache OpenOffice 3.4 downloads will exceed 20 million.



Congrats, everyone.

-Rob



WOW! That's a BIG BEEP! :)

--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Proposed resolution: Establish the Apache OpenOffice Project

[Kay Schenk]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> On 10/10/2012 Donald Harbison wrote:
>
>  On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:24 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>
>>> The proposed resolution text follows. I expect to start a VOTE on it on
>>> general@incubator as soon as there is consensus (on the same list).
>>>
>>
>> Andrea, I believe we have established consensus here and encourage you
>> to start the VOTE on general@incubator at your earliest convenience.
>>
>
> Well, the consensus should be established "there" (i.e., at
> general@incubator), not here at ooo-dev, and we had no replies so far
> there. But considering that http://incubator.apache.org/**
> guides/graduation.htmlshows
>  that the vote can start the day after the preliminary message I sent,
> I've proceeded now and started the 72-hour vote on general@incubator.
>

OK, good!


>
> We as Apache OpenOffice PPMC members do not have (in general) binding
> votes there, so there's no need to vote. And avoiding unnecessary and
> confusing votes is the reason for me not sending a copy here: you will be
> able to find the message at
> http://mail-archives.apache.**org/mod_mbox/incubator-**
> general/201210.mbox/browser
> as soon as the archives are updated.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>

You are right. We don't have voting rights on incubator, and should not do
any voting there.

Thanks for supplying the link.


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [PROPOSAL][WWW] style and content changes to home page

[Kay Schenk]

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> On 09/10/2012 Kay Schenk wrote:
>
>> http://www.openoffice.org/**test/ <http://www.openoffice.org/test/> ...
>>
>> I am  invoking *lazy consensus* on these changes and put this in place
>> sometime on Sat, PDT -- say 15:30, unless there are objections.
>>
>
> It's nice indeed. I only see the "Valid XHTML" icon positioned a bit too
> high maybe... Is it wanted?
> http://people.apache.org/~**pescetti/tmp/ooo-www-test.png<http://people.apache.org/~pescetti/tmp/ooo-www-test.png>
>
> And, by the way, clicking on it reveals that there are a couple of markup
> fixes to apply, but I don't know if those are due to the CMS or to specific
> markup of the page.
>

hmmm...thanks for the feedback. Yes, the positioning can be changed and I
will look at the fixes it tags.


>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [PROPOSAL][WWW] style and content changes to home page

[Kay Schenk]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:

>
> On Oct 9, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>
> > Please have a look when you get a moment at the test area for home pages
> in:
> >
> > http://www.openoffice.org/test/
> >
> > I have moved what were basically permanent items on our social networking
> > areas and blog to the
> > "I want to stay in touch..." area. Also, I edited the styling giving ~66%
> > to the main menu items and ~33% to the "campaign" items to deal with
> > annoyances on both browser and mobile devices.
> >
> > I am  invoking *lazy consensus* on these changes and put this in place
> > sometime on Sat, PDT -- say 15:30, unless there are objections.
> >
> > as a short ps. I did discover, after some investigation into the actual
> > html for our generated web site, that we do indeed already have ssi
> enabled
> > for ALL ".html" files for our entire site.
>
> I told you that was the case more than once, but I guess you had to figure
> it out yourself.
>

Well you did I have no doubt. I probably misunderstood what you were trying
to say,  and yes, did have to figure it out myself.  :/ It was obvious when
I saw what actually got generated from the build. Duh...I guess I should
have looked at this a lot sooner.


>
> > So, if that helps anyone in any
> > way. I am already investigating and testing this to deal with the ongoing
> > "news" area.
> >
> > Set up file extensions for your includes with some other than ".html" --
> I
> > used ".ssi" -- and away you go!
>
> Or, modify the behavior of ooo-site/trunk/lib/path.pm to do a
> transformation of xml or mdtext into a ssi.
>

Well I originally just wanted to use a simple ".ssi" for the News business
to get away from editing and archiving entries as we do now. This was
before Rob's suggestions about xml feeds etc.  At any rate, I'm sure
there's a lot that could be done. Right now, I'm having issues getting
includes to work with my local setup...so after I get that gong, I'll do
more testing, and make more changes to our header portions.


> There is more to learn about it. You can ask about it directly or find my
> emails in the archives.
>

OK...I'll do that. Maybe at some point, we could work on providing
additional information in our instructions as well -- maybe "Advanced
Website Techniques" or something.


>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> > --
> >
> 
> > MzK
> >
> > "Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
> > dealt  with a cat."
> >-- Robert Heinlein
>
>


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Installation patches

[Kay Schenk]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 7:59 AM, Pedro Giffuni  wrote:

> Hi Andre;
>
> This initiative is hugely important. Thanks for working on it.
>

yes! +1 on this comment...

Yet another item I've meant to investigate for a while .


>
> > From: Andre Fischer
> ...
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >In the last days I looked into how to create installation patches for
> updating AOO.  Using patches instead of full installation packages would
> lead to smaller files to distribute for updating AOO on the next release.
> >
> >I have created a new Wiki page for my findings.  Please see [1] for an
> overview and the details of how to create patch files.  Note that I have
> concentrated on the Windows platform for the time being.
> >
> >My results for the impatient:
> >
> >1. I have written a Perl script with which I have created a Windows
> Installer MSP patch file that updates an installed Apache OpenOffice 3.4 to
> 3.4.1.  Its size is roughly a tenth of the full installation package.
> There are some minor problems, like the about box still displaying 3.4 as
> current version in the first line.  The second line is OK.
> >
> >2. There is already some support for the creation of patch files in the
> make_installer.pl script but this functionality is inactive.  It is not
> triggered by the makefile in module instsetoo_native/ and therefore I can
> not say whether it would still work.
> >
> >
> >[1] http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Building_installation_packages
> >
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Andre
> >
> >
>
> By far the Windows case is most important.
>
> I will add here some notes on how it's done on FreeBSD (and optionally
> linux).
>
>
> Normal installation files:
>
> For FreeBSD we don't use either .rpm or .deb format: we have epm generate
> general archive files. These are later untarred and the ports system takes
> care of re-tarring into our native pkg format (actually just a tar file
> with package listing). As you can imagine generating packages takes a lot
> of time: it involves extracting and repackaging.: it would be nice to have
> a "raw" mode that just installs things and let our ports/packaging system
> take over.
>
> Updates:
>
> FreeBSD will be transitioning RSN to the new pkgng format which takes care
> of dependencies and updates in third party packages. I haven't looked at it
> in detail but it is considered ready for prime time and has been tested
> extensively. For the base system we have a system in place which uses
> bsdiff:
>
> http://www.daemonology.net/bsdiff/
>
> This would be very useful to release binary patches for security fixes or
> minor updates. Google chrome used this same mechanism and later enhanced it
> into Courgette:
>
>
> http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/software-updates-courgette
>
>
> hth,
>
> Pedro.
>
>


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Draft Blog Post: Calling all Consultants

[Kay Schenk]

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:05 PM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
> > Was this a typo?
> > Note: At Apache we never play for development, and we do not recommend
> > or endorse specific consultants.
> >
> > pay-play?
> >
>
> Yes, it should be "pay".
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rob
>

looks good with this change...


>
> > On 10/8/12, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >>
> https://blogs.apache.org/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=calling_all_openoffice_consultants
> >>
> >> Comments are welcome.
> >>
> >> -Rob
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexandro Colorado
> > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > http://es.openoffice.org
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

[PROPOSAL][WWW] style and content changes to home page

[Kay Schenk]

Please have a look when you get a moment at the test area for home pages in:

http://www.openoffice.org/test/

I have moved what were basically permanent items on our social networking
areas and blog to the
"I want to stay in touch..." area. Also, I edited the styling giving ~66%
to the main menu items and ~33% to the "campaign" items to deal with
annoyances on both browser and mobile devices.

I am  invoking *lazy consensus* on these changes and put this in place
sometime on Sat, PDT -- say 15:30, unless there are objections.

as a short ps. I did discover, after some investigation into the actual
html for our generated web site, that we do indeed already have ssi enabled
for ALL ".html" files for our entire site. So, if that helps anyone in any
way. I am already investigating and testing this to deal with the ongoing
"news" area.

Set up file extensions for your includes with some other than ".html" -- I
used ".ssi" -- and away you go!
-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Policy question: How to link to books about OpenOffice?

[Kay Schenk]

On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:00 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts 
> wrote:
> >
> > On 12-10-08, at 17:24 , Andrea Pescetti  wrote:
> >
> >> Rob Weir wrote:
> >>> I'm hesitant to just list every book that is published. ...
> >>> List them only when requested (like we do with consultants)?
> >>
> >> This is probably the best option.
> >>
> >>> List them but screen out ones that we consider to be
> >>> "low value", e.g., an identical reprint of a free eBook?
> >>
> >> We have lazy consensus in place for consultants and the same would
> apply here: if someone believes that a submitted entry is problematic, or
> that another book should be listed instead of the submitted one, he can
> just speak up.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>  Andrea.
> >
> > What I did before was what can be done better now, to have the author or
> his/her agent either request listing or list it, and to permit this only
> within the stipulated constraints of relevance, inoffensiveness, etc.
> >
>
> I've added a paragraph to the top telling authors and publishers how
> they can send titles for possible inclusion:
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/support/books.html
>
> Still needs some work to de-uglify the page, but that is a task for
> another day.
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
I think this is perfectly adequate for now.

Thanks.



> > Louis
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [DISCUSS]: next step towards graduation

[Kay Schenk]

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > Juergen -- see below
> >
> >
> > On 10/08/2012 04:45 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> we made good progress towards graduation and I would like to discuss the
> >> next steps.
> >>
> >> - we have selected the initial PMC roster
> >> - we have selected a PMC chair (vote finished, result summary out
> >> standing but we have a clear vote for Andrea Pescetti)
> >> - graduation resolution already updated with PMC roster and preliminary
> >> with the PMC chair
> >>
> >> Next steps to reach potentially the October board meeting:
> >> - start IPMC vote, who will trigger this? Should it or have it be
> >> triggered by the new PMC chair?
> >
> >
> > This is what the excerpt from
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#process
> > says...
> >
> >
> > "The Recommendation Vote
> >
> > The resolution should be proposed on the general incubator list before a
> > VOTE is started to allow feedback. Once a consensus has been reached, a
> VOTE
> > should be started on the same general incubator list by a member of the
> PPMC
> > proposing that the IPMC recommends the resolution to the Board."
> >
> > my take on this is that anyone on the AOO PPMC can forward the existing
> > resolution to general@incubator with some appropriate subject. You might
> > want to send a link to this thread as well...
> >
> > http://markmail.org/message/utklcwlfwl5wp5sx
> >
> > although I imagine mentors would be "officially" canvassed.
> >
> > A few other loose ends perhaps...
> >
> > on our incubator site page,
> > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html
> >
> >  in the "Verify distribution rights" section.
> > Have we verified these? (this goes to Dennis comments as well I think)
> >
>
> Those two sections are filled in, with the 2012-05-02 dates.  So that
> is done.  It was accomplished before we released AOO 3.4.0.
>
> > Finally, I don't know who has modification rights to this page, but
> there is
> > no link to our June and Sept reports. It might be nice if someone did
> this.
> >
>
> All committers should have rights to edit that page.  It can be done
> via the CMS web interface.
>
> But I just did a quick update in this case to add links to those two
> status reports.
>
> -Rob
>

really? gee, well I apologize...I didn't realize this.



>
>
> >
> >>
> >> I hope we can start this IPMC vote on Tuesday or Wednesday latest.
> >> Anything else we need?
> >>
> >> Juergen
> >>
> >
> > --
> > 
> > MzK
> >
> > "Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
> >  dealt with a cat."
> >-- Robert Heinlein
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Policy question: How to link to books about OpenOffice?

[Kay Schenk]

On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Andrea Pescetti 
> wrote:
> > On 02/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >> One way to think of it is to treat the publisher or author (for
> >> self-published books) as the "consultant" in the terms of the policy.
> >> They are the ones providing the service, via their book.  So we would
> >> allow linking to the author's website or the publisher's website...
> >>
> >> Otherwise, same criteria as consultants -- factual list, respect
> >> trademark, impartial,  rel="nofollow", etc.
> >> Does this make sense?
> >
> >
> > Yes, nice idea. Another difference would be that we probably want to keep
> > books listed indefinitely, while we might want to enforce some
> (long-term)
> > "renewal process" for consultants if we notice that records tend to
> become
> > outdated.
> >
>
>
> I took a look on Amazon (the U.S. website, in case it differs by
> country), and I see the following books published since June 2012.
> This is just the ones that mention "OpenOffice" in the title:
>
>
> Sept 29:   A Conceptual Guide to OpenOffice.org 3 [Kindle Edition]
> Gabriel Gurley
>
> Sept. 27:  Practical Open Source Office: LibreOffice(TM) and Apache
> OpenOffice [Paperback] June Jamrich Parsons
>
> Sept 22:  How to create your own e-books with OpenOffice / LibreOffice
> [Kindle Edition] Sébastien Cismondo
>
> Sept 1: Navigate - OpenOffice Writer [Kindle Edition] KMG Publishing
> Limited
>
> Sept 1: OpenOffice 3.4 [Paperback] Winfried Seimert
>
> Aug 22: OpenOffice Impress [Paperback] Niek Yoan (Editor)
>
> July 11:  Getting Started with OpenOffice (LibreOffice): The Free
> Replacement for Microsoft Office [Kindle Edition] Rob Spahitz
>
> June 29: Jambo OpenOffice [Paperback] Jesse Russell (Editor), Ronald
> Cohn (Editor)
>
> June 28:  Getting Started with OpenOffice.org 3 [Kindle Edition] OOo
> Authors (Author)
>
> June 11:  OpenOffice.org XML [Paperback] Jesse Russell (Editor),
> Ronald Cohn (Editor)
>
>
> I think that is more books on OpenOffice in that time frame than we've
> done blog posts!
>
>
> Of course, things might not be what they seem.  That's why I'm
> hesitant to just list every book that is published.  Some of these
> might just be reprints by 3rd parties of existing material that is
> already public on the web under a CC or other free documentation
> license.  Two of them look like print outs of Wikipedia articles.  But
> still there appear to be some real books here, short format e-books as
> well as full-length paperbacks.
>
>
> So what should we do?  List all of these (plus the others from earlier
> in 2012) ?   List them only when requested (like we do with
> consultants)?


Well it's interesting that you put this in, as I was just thinking along
these lines after seeing the work you did with the consultants area.

So, I would go for this option.

Or again, just through it some search "teasers" at a few sites and let it
go at that.


>  List them but screen out ones that we consider to be
> "low value", e.g., an identical reprint of a free eBook?
>

I would not recommend this option...

The OpenOffice sessions at ApacheConEU might provide a good way for more
outreach to what is considered ecosystem elements: consultants,
distribution channels, authors, etc..

I would recommend maybe some way of advertising the new consultants
listing, and, if we decided something similar is good for authors, that
too. At the very least, even if few participants in these areas show up, we
surely would get some press from outreach like this.
Just an idea...


>
> -Rob
>
>
> > Regards,
> >   Andrea.
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [DISCUSS]: next step towards graduation

[Kay Schenk]

Juergen -- see below

On 10/08/2012 04:45 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

Hi,

we made good progress towards graduation and I would like to discuss the
next steps.

- we have selected the initial PMC roster
- we have selected a PMC chair (vote finished, result summary out
standing but we have a clear vote for Andrea Pescetti)
- graduation resolution already updated with PMC roster and preliminary
with the PMC chair

Next steps to reach potentially the October board meeting:
- start IPMC vote, who will trigger this? Should it or have it be
triggered by the new PMC chair?


This is what the excerpt from

http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#process
says...


"The Recommendation Vote

The resolution should be proposed on the general incubator list before a 
VOTE is started to allow feedback. Once a consensus has been reached, a 
VOTE should be started on the same general incubator list by a member of 
the PPMC proposing that the IPMC recommends the resolution to the Board."


my take on this is that anyone on the AOO PPMC can forward the existing 
resolution to general@incubator with some appropriate subject. You might 
want to send a link to this thread as well...


http://markmail.org/message/utklcwlfwl5wp5sx

although I imagine mentors would be "officially" canvassed.

A few other loose ends perhaps...

on our incubator site page,
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/openofficeorg.html

 in the "Verify distribution rights" section.
Have we verified these? (this goes to Dennis comments as well I think)

Finally, I don't know who has modification rights to this page, but 
there is no link to our June and Sept reports. It might be nice if 
someone did this.




I hope we can start this IPMC vote on Tuesday or Wednesday latest.
Anything else we need?

Juergen



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: OpenOffice SVG vector graphics

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:

> I upload the OpenOffice SVG logo on pure SVG, still needs some cleanup
> on the nodes, but this is a 100% SVG logo.
> The attachment is on the cWiki:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/ApacheOpenOfficeTM.svg
> &
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpageattachments.action?pageId=27834483&sortBy=date&;
>
> --
> Alexandro Colorado
> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> http://es.openoffice.org
>

Alexandro,

This looks super! Would it be possible to get the svg for just the orb part
without the lettering? Or is this something one of our more graphically
inclined folks to produce? Or maybe separately AND together?

Mostly, I think the goal should be  to keep things sync'ed up in:

www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/

and you will note, they currently are not.

-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [RESULT][VOTE][PMC] Starting Membership for Apache OpenOffice PMC

[Kay Schenk]

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Andrew Rist  wrote:

> The Vote started on 2012-10-01 has ended.
>
> There were 28 +1 votes, and 1 abstention.
>
> There were no other votes cast.
>
> The PPMC has approved the Starting Membership for Apache OpenOffice PMC
> This list can now be added to the TLP resolution for AOO.
>

The list has been added to:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Graduation+Resolution+%28draft%29

Please verify...


>
>
>
>
> Voting Details:
>
>+1 - In Favor
>Dennis Hamilton
>Albino Neto
>Dave Fisher
>TJ - Thomas J. Frazier
>imacat (Yang Shih-Ching)
>Carl Marcum
>Graham Lauder
>Donald Harbison
>Pedro Giffuni
>Andre Fischer
>Armin Le Grand
>Kazunari Hirano
>Andrea Pescetti
>Renizinger Zoltan
>Oliver-Rainer Wittmann
>Olaf Felka
>Ian Lynch
>RGB.ES - Ricardo
>    Peter Junge
>Roberto Galoppini
>Jürgen Schmidt
>Yong Lin Ma
>Regina Henschel
>Kay Schenk
>Marcus Lange
>Andrew Rist
>Dave Barton
>Wolf Halton
>
>
>0 - Abstain
>Ariel Constenla-Haile
>
>


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Change of 'soffice' name

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/05/2012 07:38 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote:

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 1:18 PM, Ariel Constenla-Haile
wrote:


I've been told that a similar problem happens on Debian, and on ubuntu,
with the desktop-integration package



I have installed the latest greatest Debian 6.06 (released this week afaik)
and I was surprised to find out it includes OpenOffice ".org" 3.2.1
(OOO320M19), but in the usual Debian-way, stripped of the OO.o branding.
(Remember, these are the folks who rename Firefox to "Iceweasel" and
SeaMonkey to "Iceape" :-P).

I wonder -since Debian still has not ditched OO.o to LO, if this wouldn´t
be an opportunity for them to package AOO in next versions...


Perhaps so...maybe you could
(a) contact them, or...
(b) package it for them and add to their repository if you can. :)

[I don't know anything about how Debian works by the way].

Anyway, I still believe it is file linkage problems causing this 
'soffice' problem as I basically unlinked this (on opensuse) and 
everything worked fine. However, I have NO knowledge of what's going on 
with other packagings.


Just thinking aloud..
FC



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [VOTE][PMC] PMC Chair

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/04/2012 04:41 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:

This is a call for vote on selecting the PMC Chair the Apache OpenOffice
PMC.
Per the IPMC's "Guide to Successful Graduation" [1] the Apache
OpenOffice podling needs to select a PMC to be listed in the TLP
resolution.


Everyone in the community is encouraged to vote.  Votes from PPMC
members and Mentors are binding.  This vote will run 72-hours.

The balloting will be until UTC midnight Sunday, 7 October:
2012-10-07T24:00Z.


[ ] Andrea Pescetti (pescetti)
[ ] Drew Jensen (atjensen)


I vote for Andrea Pescetti




The [DISCUSS] for this vote can be found at [2] and [3].  Note: Andrea
has accepted the nomination - Drew has not responded.


[1] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#toplevel
[2]http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201210.mbox/%3c506a1e72.20...@oracle.com%3E

[3]http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201209.mbox/%3c5064c859.9090...@oracle.com%3E




--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: Which See Gull is Our Logo?

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/04/2012 11:51 AM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

On 10/4/12, Kay Schenk  wrote:

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:


Here is a comparison of original Orb taken from Stella's site compared
to my version of SVG.

Unfortunately it was very hard to recreate everything, the shadows and
also counter glow on the lower part of the sphere are not identical
and also some color gradiance might be slightly unsaturazied.

http://imagebin.org/230878

Still Gulls are the right size and maybe some node cleanups might be
necesary but proportions are correct.



Alexandro --

Well  a very good effort!  I saw we had

  http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/orb.jpg

and moved it to AOO_logos.

I will see what else I can find when I get a moment...either on the
MediaWiki or elsewhere. This IS the orb used in our current logo,
though...the one imacat asked about.


I understand, however this is a rasterized image and hard to adapt to
any size proportion, I am trying to get either a 99% exact copy on SVG
so that we could get this on native XML/SVG/Canvas source and start
documenting the guidelines for creating the 'orb'.

At the same time, this is a bit uncertain since other conversations
are about pushing for a new logo which could potentially make this
work irrelevant. I will keep working on the orb I provided, and see if
I can get a generalize approval from the community.


Well, it seems a new logo will be postponed for now. I think there is 
some opinion that it should wait until a new major release.


So, I would suggest to continue your efforts at reproducing the orb.



At the moment the only real documentation is on the OpenOffice.org
brand refresh, and even if there has been a new logo(Incubator), it
was somewhat mounted on the original Oracle brand refresh (color
palette and such). There is also not much documentation on the
application and mime-type guidelines design, or unified ODF.

I also wonder which is the name of the typeface of the "Apache
OpenOffice" and if there any native SVG. The one I found was just a
Jpg wrapped inside an SVG file, no vectors/nodes/etc.


Yes, I'm afraid we are lacking in technicalities with some our graphics. 
I don't know what else I can say about this. It's coem up before.








On 10/4/12, Albino B Neto  wrote:

Hi

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 9:52 PM, imacat 

wrote:

 I was working on some simple art work.


The picture all are good.

For me it will be a difficult choice. (:

Albino




--
Alexandro Colorado
PPMC Apache OpenOffice
http://es.openoffice.org





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
  dealt  with a cat."
 -- Robert Heinlein






--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [UX] OpenOffice iconset consistency

[Kay Schenk]

...see below...

On 10/03/2012 07:24 AM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

Have a question regarding on the integration of iconset with OpenOffice. At
the moment I have seen that there are still a lot of the design from OOo 3
and even 2.4.

One of the design that hasn't change is the iconset of the applications.
OpenOffice application used to have an icon like [1], and the applications
had them like [2], on 3.0 the iconset got a new look [3] , however this was
applied only partially, since in the menu looked like this [4] and the
internal applications like that[5]. The previous visual design page already
listed the guidelines for the new iconset as well as samples within the
different sizes of both application and filetypes [6], the new visual
design page [7] also have some information regarding this, however the AOO
releases hasn't followed.

[1] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:OpenOffice.org_3_icon.png
[2]
http://robistech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Icons-Open-Office-Pack_1.png
[3] http://rocketdock.com/images/screenshots/Open-Office-3.2.1.png
[4]
http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/gifs/Icons/refresh_icons/OOorg_WinXP_Startmenu.png


On Linux, the only round icon I have is for the main "start" one -- the 
orb with gulls. Nothing like [3]. Mostly what I have looks like [2].




[5] http://imagebin.org/230757
[6] http://www.openoffice.org/ui/VisualDesign/ODF_icons4print.html
[7]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Branding+Style+Guide



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [DISCUSS] [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/04/2012 10:34 AM, Donald Harbison wrote:

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Rist  wrote:

I would like to open up the vote for PMC Chair later today.  I am at a bit
of a loss as to how to play this, so I am looking for input from the
community.
Here is where we stand on nominees:

Active Nominees (Accepted Nomination):
Andrea Pescetti (pescetti)

Active Nominees (No Reply Yet):
Drew Jensen (atjensen)



Declining Nominees:

Donald Harbison (dpharbison)
Pedro Giffuni (pfg)
Louis Suarez-Potts (louis)


If anyone can reach out to Drew, that would be useful.  I understand that he
is more focused on Forums, as compared to the ML.  That said, the Chair
would have to do business on, and be active on the ML.


I sent Drew a direct email... with a link to your post here.
Hopefully, he'll see it soon. Otherwise, I think it's best to start
the ballot. It'd be fantastic to tee up graduation for the October
17th BoD meeting. (IMHO).


yes it would! :)






Should I start the vote this evening?
Should the vote include Andrea and Drew?   (this is my current inclination)

Andrew




On 10/3/2012 2:57 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:


We have heard from Andrea.  Drew and Louis, do you care to respond?

A.


On 10/1/2012 3:51 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:


The nominations are in and we have three open nominees (with two nominees
declining, so far).
I'll hold the discussions open for 72 hours (more if necessary).  It
would also be good to hear from the nominees, in terms of their thoughts and
interest in the position.   That's your topic - discuss...

Active Nominees:

Andrea Pescetti (pescetti)
Drew Jensen (atjensen)
Louis Suarez-Potts (louis)

Declining Nominees:

Donald Harbison (dpharbison)
Pedro Giffuni (pfg)





--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [WWW] Do we need a new site logo (for graduation) -- call for volunteers

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/04/2012 01:30 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:

Am 10/04/2012 08:05 PM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:

RGB ES wrote:

2012/10/4 Kay Schenk

We all love the orb with gulls, but maybe it's time for a slight
update to
our logo? Or the header line on our websites (project and user portal).

I do not like the idea of another logo change: IMO, the last one is too
recent. On the other hand, a reorganization of the header line sounds
interesting.


Same for me. It's probably early to update the logo, and the new one
does a good job at balancing continuity and innovation.

But it is a very good idea to rethink the site header, that is currently
missing some very common functionality, like a language selector to
access Native-Lang sites.


I fully support Andrea's opinion.

Marcus



Ok, thanks for the feedback on this item. So, we will say "NO" to this 
at this time.


I will be updating the wiki page I started on home page changes shortly 
to reflect this and other things.



--

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt with a cat."
   -- Robert Heinlein

Re: [WWW] Do we need a new site logo (for graduation) -- call for volunteers

[Kay Schenk]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 12:18 AM, Kevin Grignon wrote:

> Sounds like a great opportunity to clean up the graphic resources
>
> Do we have an inventory of all locations where the logo occurs throughout
> the product touch points: web, applications, docs etc?
>

Not that I personally am aware of, but I have never been involved in the
"art" aspects. I'm sure others in this conversation can help though.

And, given comments here from a few others, and the time frame we're
looking at for graduation -- maybe even as soon as a month -- I think we
should focus on maybe just a  few changes at the moment: perhaps replacing
the right corner Apache incubator logo with a normal Apache logo; changes
in top navigation tabs;  maybe a few header changes; and formatting changes.

This being said, I think a more widespread re-branding effort is certainly
warranted say for a 4.0 release.  So, it is probably not too early to start
thinking about this.



>
> On Oct 4, s.2012, at 11:17 AM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Kevin Grignon  >wrote:
> >
> >> I agree, an updated visual identity would be a great way to refresh our
> >> application visuals and appear more contemporary. Website branding
> should
> >> align with this broader brand direction.
> >>
> >> Updating the logo should be part if a broader branding initiative which
> >> includes creative new artwork for app icons, file icons as well as
> graphics
> >> for install, start screens, wizards, about box and others.
> >>
> >> I have been sketching and created some mockups for a number of these
> >> elements. I'll upload when back from vacation.
> >>
> >> I'll volunteer to lead this activity.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I actually don't agree with having a new logo, simply because even the
> > current  one hasnt been completely integrated with the product and is
> > creating  huge lag between this logo proposals, the trademark and the
> > actual look and feel of the application.
> >
> > I applaud the efforts on maybe having a new design on the website, but a
> > new logo? Just the wiki had a change from the old Oracle logo to the new
> > one (orb logo) last week.
> >
> > Today I point out a lot of discrepancies between the logo on the Visual
> > design site (an old one from OOo 3.2 days) and the current status of 3.4
> > and it hasn't been implemented. [1]
> >
> > Even at the moment, there are different orbs floating around such as the
> > orb on the start center of OOo 3.4 is different from the 8-bit solid orb.
> > [2]
> >
> > [1]
> >
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201210.mbox/%3cCAMK9kTiqEUcghLksDaBP2sgCSkhP7VuVpxF2asE9k-r6XdXX=g...@mail.gmail.com%3e
> > [2] http://imagebin.org/230827
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kevin
> >>
> >>
> >> On Oct 4, 2012, at 7:11 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10/03/2012 04:00 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >>>> I notice that Apache Forrest does use the Apache feather: there are
> >>>> three of them stood on their quills as if they are a small stand of
> >>>> trees.
> >>>
> >>> Dennis--your powers of observation are incredible! I did NOT see this!
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It seems to me that the incorporation of the feather can be a little
> >>>> strained.  The cases where it is in shadow, on the other hand, are
> >>>> easy to overlook.
> >>>>
> >>>> The orb with stylized gulls is very convenient at a lot of sizes and
> >>>> formats, including as a download button, an icon on directory entries
> >>>> on downloaded exe and oxt files, etc.  If the feather is to be a
> >>>> feature of that, it will be tricky.
> >>>>
> >>>> It would be useful to see some examples, as Kay suggests.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Dennis
> >>>>
> >>>> PS: I also wonder whether generic icons should be part of the source
> >>>> release and distinct icons be used in the Apache-provided "authentic"
> >>>> builds.  In that case, it would be great if the generic icons did not
> >>>> have the feather in any way. That's a half-baked notion, and it
> >>>> simply might not be acceptable.  It is something I wonder about --
> >>>> differentiating builds produced by the project from o

Re: Which See Gull is Our Logo?

[Kay Schenk]

On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Alexandro Colorado  wrote:

> Here is a comparison of original Orb taken from Stella's site compared
> to my version of SVG.
>
> Unfortunately it was very hard to recreate everything, the shadows and
> also counter glow on the lower part of the sphere are not identical
> and also some color gradiance might be slightly unsaturazied.
>
> http://imagebin.org/230878
>
> Still Gulls are the right size and maybe some node cleanups might be
> necesary but proportions are correct.
>

Alexandro --

Well  a very good effort!  I saw we had

 http://www.openoffice.org/images/AOO_logos/orb.jpg

and moved it to AOO_logos.

I will see what else I can find when I get a moment...either on the
MediaWiki or elsewhere. This IS the orb used in our current logo,
though...the one imacat asked about.


> On 10/4/12, Albino B Neto  wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 9:52 PM, imacat 
> wrote:
> >> I was working on some simple art work.
> >
> > The picture all are good.
> >
> > For me it will be a difficult choice. (:
> >
> > Albino
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandro Colorado
> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> http://es.openoffice.org
>



-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: Which See Gull is Our Logo?

[Kay Schenk]

Ok, given my eyesight at the moment, it appears to be the first link you
have here:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/528985_356794727712744_1341584190_n.jpg

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 5:52 PM, imacat  wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I was working on some simple art work.  I found two versions of see
> gulls:
>
>
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/528985_356794727712744_1341584190_n.jpg
>
>
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/550857_428731650519051_1233679500_n.png
>
> You can see there is a difference in color, in the area of the
> light, in the position of the see gull and in the shadow of the blue
> ball.  The former one seem to came from
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/aoo.svg
>
> And the latter one came from
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/download/attachments/27834483/AOOIL.svg
>
> On this page
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/c7ioAQ
>
> Both these files are dated almost the same.  So, which one is our
> logo now?
>
> --
> Best regards,
> imacat ^_*' 
> PGP Key http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.asc
>
> <> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
> Tavern IMACAT's http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
> Woman in FOSS in Taiwan http://wofoss.blogspot.com/
> Apache OpenOffice http://www.openoffice.org/
> EducOO/OOo4Kids Taiwan http://www.educoo.tw/
> Greenfoot Taiwan http://greenfoot.westart.tw/
>
>


-- 

MzK

"Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never
 dealt  with a cat."
-- Robert Heinlein

Re: [WWW] Do we need a new site logo (for graduation) -- call for volunteers

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/03/2012 04:00 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:

I notice that Apache Forrest does use the Apache feather: there are
three of them stood on their quills as if they are a small stand of
trees.


Dennis--your powers of observation are incredible! I did NOT see this!



It seems to me that the incorporation of the feather can be a little
strained.  The cases where it is in shadow, on the other hand, are
easy to overlook.

The orb with stylized gulls is very convenient at a lot of sizes and
formats, including as a download button, an icon on directory entries
on downloaded exe and oxt files, etc.  If the feather is to be a
feature of that, it will be tricky.

It would be useful to see some examples, as Kay suggests.

- Dennis

PS: I also wonder whether generic icons should be part of the source
release and distinct icons be used in the Apache-provided "authentic"
builds.  In that case, it would be great if the generic icons did not
have the feather in any way. That's a half-baked notion, and it
simply might not be acceptable.  It is something I wonder about --
differentiating builds produced by the project from ones produced in
some other manner and the source only having the generic icons.

-Original Message- From: Kay Schenk
[mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012
15:30 To: OOo Apache Subject: [WWW] Do we need a new site logo (for
graduation) -- call for volunteers

We all love the orb with gulls, but maybe it's time for a slight
update to our logo? Or the header line on our websites (project and
user portal).

I took a look around at some of the Apache projects and the use of
project logos and web site headers seems to fall into a few
different categories.

Sites using Apache feather but not in product logo --

http://camel.apache.org/ http://forrest.apache.org/
http://cocoon.apache.org/

Sites incorporating feather logo into an existing logo --

http://mina.apache.org/ http://jakarta.apache.org/oro/
http://axis.apache.org/axis2/java/core/ http://activemq.apache.org/
http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (???)

Sites not making overt use of any Apache logo (feather) --
http://click.apache.org/

So, any preferences? Ideas?

There already exists a AOOLogo proposal page,
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOOLogo+proposal

 so we could just add items to this, or change some that are here, or
add a child page, etc.




--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

[WWW] Do we need a new site logo (for graduation) -- call for volunteers

[Kay Schenk]

We all love the orb with gulls, but maybe it's time for a slight update 
to our logo? Or the header line on our websites (project and user portal).


I took a look around at some of the Apache projects and the use of 
project logos and web site headers seems to fall into a few different 
categories.


Sites using Apache feather but not in product logo --

http://camel.apache.org/
http://forrest.apache.org/
http://cocoon.apache.org/

Sites incorporating feather logo into an existing logo --

http://mina.apache.org/
http://jakarta.apache.org/oro/
http://axis.apache.org/axis2/java/core/
http://activemq.apache.org/
http://ofbiz.apache.org/ (???)

Sites not making overt use of any Apache logo (feather) --
http://click.apache.org/

So, any preferences? Ideas?

There already exists a AOOLogo proposal page,
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOOLogo+proposal

so we could just add items to this, or change some that are here, or add 
a child page, etc.



--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: News article integration with home page

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/29/2012 02:27 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:



On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Dave Fisher mailto:dave2w...@comcast.net>> wrote:


On Sep 29, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:

 >
 > On Sep 29, 2012, at 9:24 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:
 >
 >> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile
 >> mailto:arie...@apache.org>>wrote:
 >>
 >>> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 10:12:25AM -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
 >>>> What makes this different from our other SSI uses is we need
to limit
 >>>> the number of articles displayed.   We want to avoid having an
 >>>> open-ended list of articles appear on the home page, since
that would
 >>>> just length the page and put the important footer info far
down.  It
 >>>> would be ugly as well.  So ideally we want some logic that
puts the
 >>>> 5 or so most recent stories on the home page, and then puts
the full
 >>>> list of articles on the dedicated news page.  Or maybe even does
 >>>> something fancier, like group articles by month or year on the
news
 >>>> page.  But minimum requirement is probably to be able to limit
number
 >>>> of articles on home page.
 >>>>
 >>>> Is this something that is easy/possible to do with the way
we're using
 >>>> the CMS?
 >>>
 >>
 >> Well it would be done with the CSS "frame" idea I mentioned.  So
we could
 >> limit the initial length. and basically enwble a scrolling like
approach..
 >>
 >>
 >>> the main Apache site uses a module to generate the "News",
 >>> http://openejb.apache.org/ too.
 >>>
 >>
 >> Ariel --
 >>
 >> Thanks for pointing this out. This approach was mentioned in
that  same
 >> chat I had concerning ssi, but I couldn't readily find any
additional
 >> information. So, I'll take a look when I get a moment.
 >>
 >> and ...
 >>
 >> @Dave, re ssi. I know we use these for the header portion but I also
 >> realize this is a like a one time thing that basically only
happens at site
 >> build (commit, publish) and is not a continual dynamic parse
like enabling
 >> ssi for the site would be, right?
 >
 > Correct.
 >
 >> There seemed to be concern about the
 >> overhead for ssi on a continual basis, even with specifying say
an ".shtml"
 >> extension. Plus, the concern about enabling this for such
limited use.
 >
 >>
 >> Anyway, if we could do this via the CMS for "occasional" news
items, ti
 >> would be better I guess.
 >
 > Exactly. Just edit a news.xml file and setup the CMS to use xsltproc.
 >
 >>
 >> More investigation needed...
 >
 > Please see my response in the consultants thread. This has almost
the whole explanation. Additional information pertinent to both threads:
 >
 > (1) templates/html_fragment.html
 >
 > A new template is required for generated html fragments.
 >
 > {% block content %}{{ content|safe
}}{% endblock %}
 >
 > The headers.divid can be injected in (3) below.
 >
 > (2) lib/path.pm <http://path.pm>
 >
 > Has name to lib/view.pm <http://view.pm> proc and templates/
mappings for different file types. XSLT types will need to be added.
(Also for consultants.xml)
 >
 > our @patterns = (
 >[qr!doctype.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
"doctype.html" }],
 >[qr!brand.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
"brand.html" }],
 >[qr!footer.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
"footer.html" }],
 >[qr!topnav.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
"navigator.html" }],
 >[qr!leftnav.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
"navigator.html" }],
 >[qr!rightnav.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
"navigator.html" }],
 >[qr!\.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
"single_narrative.html" }],
 >[qr!\.html$!, html_page => { template => "html_page.html" }],
 >[qr!\.htm$!, html_page => { template => "html_page.html" }],
 > ) ;
 >
 > Add something like the follwoing to convert an xml into an html
file to be i

Re: Policy question: How to link to books about OpenOffice?

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/02/2012 02:22 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:



On 10/02/2012 09:37 AM, Rob Weir wrote:


On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Donald Whytock 
wrote:


Amazon can be considered a publisher.  They have a mechanism for
publishing one's own ebook.



I just noticed this when I looked to see if there are any new books
from 2012 not on that page.  There are a few books for the Kindle, not
available anywhere else but on Amazon, and having no neutral
identifier like an ISBN number.  So in that case I'd agree that the
publisher is Amazon.

My concern was more that we don't show favoritism toward a particular
book seller for those old-fashioned paper books.



I *like* old-fashioned paper books! :/



Me as well.  But I've run out of room in my house for them, and my
wife won't let me double-stack them in shelves ;-)


ah, I see...everything but my cherished tech bibles gets recycled...no space




see more...






If you're going to allow authors to make their own entries a la
consultants, they should probably be allowed to submit whatever link
they'd prefer.  That might be an Amazon or B&N link, as the author
might not otherwise have his own page.



I was not going down the self-submission of book links path.  I was
just thinking of what we should do to normalize the links we already
have.  But the next step would be that either we maintain the list or
ask the authors to.


Different but related question: ASF would not want to certify,
recommend or otherwise vet consultants because (among other things)
they're changing entities, and may unexpectedly defraud, default or
retire.  Books, on the other hand, are fairly static.  Should there be
a list of AOO-vetted books, which have been reviewed and proven to be
reasonably helpful and accurate?



I'm not sure how we could do this fairly unless we received and
reviewed a copy of each book.

We could provide a comprehensive list of titles that meet some object
criteria, e.g., list "OpenOffice" in the title.  This would be
fair/impartial, but would be less useful to the site visitor because
it would have a lot of junk, e.g., books auto-generated by scraping
Wikipedia content.



A bit of history on these. In the past, authors directly contacted OO.o and
asked for placement on this list -- no review by OO.o, no direct entry by
authors. You will note that a fair number of the entries are from
ODFAuthors, but there were others who were regular contributors as well.



OK.





We have three goals/constraints, and they are somewhat conflicting:

1) Help the site visitor (typically a user of OpenOffice) to become
more proficient in the product.   Ideally we'd recommend the best
titles to them.



...and, in truth, do we know what these are? What we love in terms of
explanation, someone else might hate



True.   And we have even less ability to do this for non-English titles.





2) Encourage the overall ecosystem, by making users aware of the best
titles

3) Be fair, impartial, and tread carefully when we touch on commercial
ventures, per our non-profit status.

What is best for 1 and 2 is worst for 3.  Filtering based on quality
is the difficulty.



...yes, and maybe something we don't want to get involved in really




One way out would be to not list books at all, but to just make a
statement along the lines of: "There are many books about OpenOffice,
including eBooks and self-published books in additional to traditional
titles.  Users should be able to find these easily by searching the
catalog of their favorite bookseller".



I would be in favor of this approach, don't list anything but provide links
to resources where some might be found: Lulu, Amazon, etc.



That could work.  Put yourself in the mind of a user.  You are looking
for a book to learn OpenOffice.  What will help you most?


The reason I suggest this -- links to places where some might be found 
-- is that places like LuLu might be rather off the typical search 
engine radar.




1) An unannotated list of titles on the OpenOffice website?

2) A list of titles and reviews and star ratings at a retailer like Amazon?

3) A blog post, "Top 7 books to help you learn OpenOffice", with
reviews and comparisons among the books.

I think #3 would be the most useful, but that is not something we
would do at Apache.


Maybe authors will show up at the upcoming ApacheConEU at the OpenOffice 
gatherings. Get to know them, and interview them if they do!


I like #3 also.

The problem with keeping this list is those who have been recently 
involved in trademark questions recently, know that some additional 
books have come down the pike even this year, and they are not listed 
here and probably the authors don't even know about this list. They are 
predominantly e-books I think.


Yes, additional ecosystem dialogue is in order.

 But it might be fine for a personal b

Re: Draft consultants page, etc., posted

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/02/2012 11:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

The page, as generated from the XML, is here:
http://www.openoffice.org/support/test/consultants.html

Obviously this is a mix of real and fake data.


looks good so far...even with fake data



I can enable more navigation once we get more listings.  But a flat
listing is fine for what we have now.

And here is the submission instructions page, where we state the
requirements and conditions for being listed:

http://www.openoffice.org/support/test/consultant-submission.html

Is it missing anything?


This is fine. It should be easy to deal with.



I'm also playing with a simplification of the support/index.html page
which you can find here:

http://www.openoffice.org/support/test/


I like this very much! Really removing all those links to the various 
wiki areas is a good idea. Much cleaner!




IMHO this is a lot cleaner and simpler and helps direct the user who
is seeking support to our best options:  documentation, forums and
user list.  I put the consultants and books onto their own pages.
Might try the same with the 3rd party website listings.

This is all in support/test, with robots.txt set to not index.


All good. Just put it into production whenever you feel so inclined.



Regards,

-Rob



--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: Policy question: How to link to books about OpenOffice?

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/02/2012 09:37 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Donald Whytock  wrote:

Amazon can be considered a publisher.  They have a mechanism for
publishing one's own ebook.



I just noticed this when I looked to see if there are any new books
from 2012 not on that page.  There are a few books for the Kindle, not
available anywhere else but on Amazon, and having no neutral
identifier like an ISBN number.  So in that case I'd agree that the
publisher is Amazon.

My concern was more that we don't show favoritism toward a particular
book seller for those old-fashioned paper books.


I *like* old-fashioned paper books! :/

see more...





If you're going to allow authors to make their own entries a la
consultants, they should probably be allowed to submit whatever link
they'd prefer.  That might be an Amazon or B&N link, as the author
might not otherwise have his own page.



I was not going down the self-submission of book links path.  I was
just thinking of what we should do to normalize the links we already
have.  But the next step would be that either we maintain the list or
ask the authors to.


Different but related question: ASF would not want to certify,
recommend or otherwise vet consultants because (among other things)
they're changing entities, and may unexpectedly defraud, default or
retire.  Books, on the other hand, are fairly static.  Should there be
a list of AOO-vetted books, which have been reviewed and proven to be
reasonably helpful and accurate?



I'm not sure how we could do this fairly unless we received and
reviewed a copy of each book.

We could provide a comprehensive list of titles that meet some object
criteria, e.g., list "OpenOffice" in the title.  This would be
fair/impartial, but would be less useful to the site visitor because
it would have a lot of junk, e.g., books auto-generated by scraping
Wikipedia content.


A bit of history on these. In the past, authors directly contacted OO.o 
and asked for placement on this list -- no review by OO.o, no direct 
entry by authors. You will note that a fair number of the entries are 
from ODFAuthors, but there were others who were regular contributors as 
well.




We have three goals/constraints, and they are somewhat conflicting:

1) Help the site visitor (typically a user of OpenOffice) to become
more proficient in the product.   Ideally we'd recommend the best
titles to them.


...and, in truth, do we know what these are? What we love in terms of 
explanation, someone else might hate




2) Encourage the overall ecosystem, by making users aware of the best titles

3) Be fair, impartial, and tread carefully when we touch on commercial
ventures, per our non-profit status.

What is best for 1 and 2 is worst for 3.  Filtering based on quality
is the difficulty.


...yes, and maybe something we don't want to get involved in really



One way out would be to not list books at all, but to just make a
statement along the lines of: "There are many books about OpenOffice,
including eBooks and self-published books in additional to traditional
titles.  Users should be able to find these easily by searching the
catalog of their favorite bookseller".


I would be in favor of this approach, don't list anything but provide 
links to resources where some might be found: Lulu, Amazon, etc.



  That would let the user find

quality via, say, the rating system at Amazon, peer reviews, etc.  And
we could accomplish #2 by offering to interview book authors on the
project blog.

I have no strong opinion on the long-term maintenance of the book
listings.  I mainly just want to get the current listing in
conformance with emerging policy in this area, and perhaps suggest
this as another topic that the policy might speak to explicitly.


When I made a few modifications yesterday to the Support page, I was 
strongly tempted to just get rid of the books list. I value the 
contributions these authors have made to the ecosystem, but, I honestly 
don't see how we can become book reviewers in the long term. So, I am 
happy you have brought raised this issue.




-Rob



Don

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Rob Weir  wrote:

On our support website, at the bottom, we have a list of
OpenOffice-related books:

http://www.openoffice.org/support/

As you see, we have links to 3rd party pages for purchasing the books,
usually Amazon or Lulu.

I'm in the process of updating this page, as part of adding a list of
consultants, and it occurred to me that we should probably think about
how Shane's draft linking policy applies to books:

http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/linking

One way to think of it is to treat the publisher or author (for
self-published books) as the "consultant" in the terms of the policy.
They are the ones providing the service, via their book.  So we would
allow linking to the author's website or the publisher's website which
describes the book.  But we would not link to Amazon, since they are a
retailer, not the author or th

Re: [VOTE] [PMC] Starting Membership for Apache OpenOffice PMC

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/01/2012 03:38 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:

This is a call for vote on selecting the following list as the starting
membership for the Apache OpenOffice PMC, to be listed in the TLP
resolution.  The voting is for the entire slate as listed.

Apache OpenOffice PMC Starting Membership:
Andre Fischer (af)
Andrea Pescetti (pescetti)
Andrew Rist (arist)
Ariel Constenla-Haile (arielch)
Armin Le Grand (alg)
Dave Fisher (wave)
Donald Harbison (dpharbison)
Drew Jensen (atjensen)
Ian Lynch (ingotian)
Jürgen Schmidt (jsc)
Kay Schenk (kschenk)
Kazunari Hirano (khirano)
Louis Suarez-Potts (louis)
Marcus Lange (marcus)
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann (orw)
Pedro Giffuni (pfg)
Peter Junge (pj)
Raphael Bircher (rbircher)
Regina Henschel (regina)
RGB.ES (rgb-es)
Roberto Galoppini (galoppini)
Yang Shih-Ching (imacat)
Yong Lin Ma (mayongl)


The balloting will be until UTC midnight Thursday,
4 October: 2012-10-04T24:00Z.

Approval requires a majority of +1 over -1 votes cast by members of
the PPMC.

 [  ] +1 approve
 [  ]  0 abstain
 [  ] -1 disapprove, for the following reasons:


+1




The [DISCUSS] for this vote was enthusiastically in favor. There
were no concerns expressed other than issues with the timeframe of
discussions, which were suitably extended.  (note: All members of this
list, except for Drew and Raphael, accepted their nomination to this
list.  I have left Drew and Raphael on the list as neither declined, and
they still have the ability to decline later)





--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: Did we ever reach consensus on support for Windows 2000

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/01/2012 01:46 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:

Am 10/01/2012 01:32 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:

A response to this thread in general.

Why has no action been taken on this yet?

I'm not trying to blame or accuse anyone, but I would like to figure
out why nothing has happened here yet.  This is one example of several
where issues seem to be discussed at length, but nothing ever happens.

1) Does someone want to fix this but does not feel empowered to do so?
  For example, is someone uncertain whether there is consensus, or is
concerned that if they do act that someone won't like it?

2) Does someone want to fix this but does not know how to do this from
a technical perspective, i.e., how to use the Apache CMS?

3) Does someone want to fix this but does not think that they have
sufficient permissions to do this?


4) Is there a (urgent) need to do the changes now or do we want to wait
for the next release to give a little sentence in the announcement?

Hm, I thought we wanted to wait. But I could be wrong.

Marcus


ditto Marcus...we just need to make sure this doesn't slip through the 
cracks as it were.


I'll tag this for a future "to do" unless someone else makes these 
changes to the System Requirements and Installation areas.


A few last words on "support". Despite the fact that Win 2000 accounts 
for such a small portion of our downloads, this will not stop folks 
using Windows 2000 to ask for support I would imagine. So, yes, we need 
to change the System Requirements and Installation instructions, but 
keep in mind that it's likely these folks will still be around on older 
OSes needing "support".







If someone wants to fix the website, but feels blocked by one of the
above, please speak up, either on the list, or privately.  IMHO none
of the above should be an issue.  We have techniques like "lazy
consensus" that can be used to see whether there is objection to a
given way forward.  And the Apache CMS is open for everyone to use,
whether or not you are a committer.

Regards,

-Rob

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Keith N. McKenna
  wrote:

Greetings All;

I was going through FAQ's and other pages on the AOO (incubating)
site and
noticed that many still are showing that we support Windows 2000 as a
baseline operating system. I though I remembered some discussions a
while
back on this list around that subject and thought we had decided that we
would no longer do that due to lack of testing resources.

I went back through the archives and did find a number of threads but
they
never seemed to reach a definite conclusion. I we are going to
continue to
support it all well and good, but if we cannot then all FAQ's and other
documentation on the site should change to reflect that.

Regards
Keith


--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: [WWW] promoting track OpenOffice on ApacheCon EU 2012

[Kay Schenk]

On 10/01/2012 07:34 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:

Hi,

On 01.10.2012 16:17, Dave Fisher wrote:


On Oct 1, 2012, at 5:17 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann wrote:


Hi,

our collection of ideas for future versions of AOO is ending today.
Thus, I would like to take over the "marketing banner" in order to
promote track OpenOffice on ApacheCon EU 2012.

The change is already on on staging server -
http://ooo-site.staging.apache.org/


Great!

I think that "Attend the OpenOffice Track at Apachecon EU 2012!" would
be better phrasing.



Thx for the feedback - corresponding change should be available in a
minute on staging server.

Best regards, Oliver.


fine and dandy! That's what the announcement banner is for!


--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: What do we say about Binaries, Packagers and Distributors? [Was Re: Did we ever reach consensus on support for Windows 2000]

[Kay Schenk]

hink that it will be likely that packagers will be involved in the project 
> so that oversight won't be difficult. Distributers and consultants will need 
> to be checked.
>
> It's a simple rule all around. Demonstrate understanding of the AL, respect 
> Apache Trademarks on your website, apply, and we will list you on an 
> appropriate page in a non-discriminatory way.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> [1] http://subversion.apache.org/packages.html
>
>
>>>
>>>>>> Are we claiming to support win98se? or winME?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, IMHO this topic is already done and in the past.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 24, 2012 7:06 AM, "Stuart
>>>>>> Swales"
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 23/09/2012 23:51, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 09/16/2012 09:48 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 11:38 PM, "Keith N. McKenna"
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Keith N. McKenna
>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Greetings All;
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was going through FAQ's and other pages on the AOO (incubating)
>>>>>>>>>>>> site and
>>>>>>>>>>>> noticed that many still are showing that we support Windows 2000
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> baseline operating system. I though I remembered some discussions
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> back on this list around that subject and thought we had decided
>>>>>>>>>>>> that we
>>>>>>>>>>>> would no longer do that due to lack of testing resources.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> IMHO, "support" is determined by what we do, not by what we say.
>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>> no one is testing with Windows 2000, then it is hard to say we
>>>>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>> it.  And if Microsoft does not make Windows 2000 CD's available to
>>>>>>>>>>> developers for testing, due to a lawsuit, then it is rather
>>>>>>>>>>> difficult
>>>>>>>>>>> for anyone who wants to test.  Not impossible, but they would need
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> get access to CD's or ISO images through unofficial means.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The major disagreement I have with this Rob is that we publish FAQ's
>>>>>>>>>> and installation documents on our official web site that lead people
>>>>>>>>>> to believe that Windows 2000 is supported.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually I don't think we disagree on this. At one point in time
>>>>>>>>> (OpenOffice.org 3.3?) Windows 2000 was presumably tested and that is
>>>>>>>>> why it is on the supported list. The fact that it remains on that
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>> is purely due to a kind of inertia: documentation in rest stays at
>>>>>>>>> rest unless acted on by an outside force.
>>>>>>>&g

Re: [WWW] Website Skinning and Branding [Was: Re: Call for comments: Webpage for Listing OpenOffice Consultants ]

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:

> Top Note:
>
> This has become an example of how to edit several parts of the website
> including adding xslt.
>
> - XSLT.
> - SSI - How html pages are transformed into AOO branded html pages.
> - Top Navigation customized for an NL.
> - Page Template Skeleton
> - Branding - including Header and Footer construction.
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Dave Fisher 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sep 29, 2012, at 2:25 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> >>
> >>> Rob Weir wrote:
>  A technical solution could be to put the strings into their own XML
>  file, so different localized versions could be used.  These would be
>  strings like column headers, the text of the disclaimer, etc.
> >>>
> >>> This would be perfect, and flexible enough.
> >>
> >> The CMS can be setup to build XML files from XSLT files with only some
> slight efforts with perl.
> >>
> >> Here are eccn / exports from the lib/view.pm for www.apache.org:
> >>
> >> sub exports {
> >>my %args = @_;
> >>my $template = "content$args{path}";
> >>$args{breadcrumbs} = ASF::View::breadcrumbs($args{path});
> >>
> >>my $page_path = $template;
> >>$page_path =~ s/\.[^.]+$/.page/;
> >>if (-d $page_path) {
> >>for my $f (grep -f, glob "$page_path/*.mdtext") {
> >>$f =~ m!/([^/]+)\.mdtext$! or die "Bad filename: $f\n";
> >>$args{$1} = {};
> >>read_text_file $f, $args{$1};
> >>}
> >>$args{table} = `xsltproc $page_path/eccnmatrix.xsl
> $page_path/eccnmatrix.xml`;
> >>
> >>}
> >>
> >>return Template($template)->render(\%args), html => \%args;
> >> }
> >>
> >> and the lib/path.pm:
> >>
> >>[qr!^/licenses/exports/index\.html$!, exports => {} ],
> >>
> >>
> >> Done properly we can drop the NL files in a consistent area.
> Interesting...
> >>
> >> Ideally all that should be changed is the XML and then the site is
> properly rebuilt.
> >>
> >> What will this xlstproc call look like if there are two XML files - one
> for columns and the other for data?
> >>
> >
> > I don't know xsltproc, but most XSLT engines have a way to pass in an
> > XSLT parameter via the command line.  So we'd pass in the locale id,
> > e.g., "it" for Italian.  Then within the XSLT we could use the
> > document() call to load a string resource file whose name is based in
> > part on the locale, for example, strings_.xml. Or
> > /strings.xml, depending on whether you want these centralized
> > or not.
> >
> > But one other assumption to check:  can we pipeline the CMS processing
> > steps together?  In other words, if we generate a bare-bones XHTML
> > from the XSLT transform. can we then feed that XHTML back into the CMS
> > to apply the usual template for the header/footer, etc.?
>
> Sure that's very much what we already do with all of the existing html:
>
> (1) Strip out header, body tag and content.
>
> (2) Push the existing html through the CMS templating engine.
>
> I'll annotate the process because the ssi part if important to consider
> here:
>
> sub html_page {
> my %args = @_;
> my %styleargs = @_;
> my $file = "content$args{path}";
> my $template = $args{template};
> $args{breadcrumbs} = breadcrumbs($args{path});
>
> (a) Get the html file contents
> read_text_file $file, \%args;
>
> (b) Each page may have an attachments directory with mdtext special
> content - read those.
> my $page_path = $file;
> $page_path =~ s/\.[^.]+$/.page/;
> if (-d $page_path) {
> for my $f (grep -f, glob "$page_path/*.mdtext") {
> $f =~ m!/([^/]+)\.mdtext$! or die "Bad filename: $f\n";
> $args{$1} = {};
> read_text_file $f, $args{$1};
> }
> }
>
> (c) Grab the folder or main ssi.mdtext defining special items like
> translations.
> my $ssi_header_file = ssiheaderfile($args{path});
> $args{ssi} = {};
> read_text_file $ssi_header_file, $args{ssi};
>
> (d) Extract the head, bodytag and content from the html file contents
> if ($args{content} =~
> m!(.*?)(?:.*?)?(.*?)(?:|\Z)!si) {
> @args{qw/head bodytag content/} = ($1, $2, $3);
> }
>
> (e) Create the breadcrumbs for the header
> $args{breadcrumbs} =~ s/home/$args{ssi}{headers}{home}/;
>
> (f) Render through the templating engine with the collected arguments.
> return Template($template)->render(\%args), html => \%args;
> }
>
> (3) ssi.mdtext files are used to do folder specific ssi overrides into the
> template:
>
> templates/ssi.mdtext
> doctype: /doctype.html
> brand:  /brand.html
> footer: /footer.html
> topnav: /topnav.html
> home:   home
>
> templates/it/ssi.mdtext
> doctype: /doctype.html
> brand:  /it/brand.html
> footer: /footer.html
> topnav: /it/topnav.html
> home:   home
>
> Adding a consultant tag to these files makes sense.
>
> (4) content/it/topnav.mdtext
>
> The place to put this new consultants link would be

Re: News article integration with home page

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:

>
> On Sep 29, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
> >
> > On Sep 29, 2012, at 9:24 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 10:12:25AM -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>>> What makes this different from our other SSI uses is we need to limit
> >>>> the number of articles displayed.   We want to avoid having an
> >>>> open-ended list of articles appear on the home page, since that would
> >>>> just length the page and put the important footer info far down.  It
> >>>> would be ugly as well.  So ideally we want some logic that puts the
> >>>> 5 or so most recent stories on the home page, and then puts the full
> >>>> list of articles on the dedicated news page.  Or maybe even does
> >>>> something fancier, like group articles by month or year on the news
> >>>> page.  But minimum requirement is probably to be able to limit number
> >>>> of articles on home page.
> >>>>
> >>>> Is this something that is easy/possible to do with the way we're using
> >>>> the CMS?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well it would be done with the CSS "frame" idea I mentioned.  So we
> could
> >> limit the initial length. and basically enwble a scrolling like
> approach..
> >>
> >>
> >>> the main Apache site uses a module to generate the "News",
> >>> http://openejb.apache.org/ too.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Ariel --
> >>
> >> Thanks for pointing this out. This approach was mentioned in that  same
> >> chat I had concerning ssi, but I couldn't readily find any additional
> >> information. So, I'll take a look when I get a moment.
> >>
> >> and ...
> >>
> >> @Dave, re ssi. I know we use these for the header portion but I also
> >> realize this is a like a one time thing that basically only happens at
> site
> >> build (commit, publish) and is not a continual dynamic parse like
> enabling
> >> ssi for the site would be, right?
> >
> > Correct.
> >
> >> There seemed to be concern about the
> >> overhead for ssi on a continual basis, even with specifying say an
> ".shtml"
> >> extension. Plus, the concern about enabling this for such limited use.
> >
> >>
> >> Anyway, if we could do this via the CMS for "occasional" news items, ti
> >> would be better I guess.
> >
> > Exactly. Just edit a news.xml file and setup the CMS to use xsltproc.
> >
> >>
> >> More investigation needed...
> >
> > Please see my response in the consultants thread. This has almost the
> whole explanation. Additional information pertinent to both threads:
> >
> > (1) templates/html_fragment.html
> >
> > A new template is required for generated html fragments.
> >
> > {% block content %}{{ content|safe }}{%
> endblock %}
> >
> > The headers.divid can be injected in (3) below.
> >
> > (2) lib/path.pm
> >
> > Has name to lib/view.pm proc and templates/ mappings for different file
> types. XSLT types will need to be added. (Also for consultants.xml)
> >
> > our @patterns = (
> >[qr!doctype.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
> "doctype.html" }],
> >[qr!brand.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template => "brand.html" }],
> >[qr!footer.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template => "footer.html"
> }],
> >[qr!topnav.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
> "navigator.html" }],
> >[qr!leftnav.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
> "navigator.html" }],
> >[qr!rightnav.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
> "navigator.html" }],
> >[qr!\.mdtext$!, single_narrative => { template =>
> "single_narrative.html" }],
> >[qr!\.html$!, html_page => { template => "html_page.html" }],
> >[qr!\.htm$!, html_page => { template => "html_page.html" }],
> > ) ;
> >
> > Add something like the follwoing to convert an xml into an html file to
> be included via ssi.
> >
> >[qr!news.xml$!, news_page => { template => "html_fragment.html" }],
>
> Of course it would probably easiest to create news.mdtext and

Re: News article integration with home page

[Kay Schenk]

On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile
wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 10:12:25AM -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> > What makes this different from our other SSI uses is we need to limit
> > the number of articles displayed.   We want to avoid having an
> > open-ended list of articles appear on the home page, since that would
> > just length the page and put the important footer info far down.  It
> > would be ugly as well.  So ideally we want some logic that puts the
> > 5 or so most recent stories on the home page, and then puts the full
> > list of articles on the dedicated news page.  Or maybe even does
> > something fancier, like group articles by month or year on the news
> > page.  But minimum requirement is probably to be able to limit number
> > of articles on home page.
> >
> > Is this something that is easy/possible to do with the way we're using
> > the CMS?
>

Well it would be done with the CSS "frame" idea I mentioned.  So we could
limit the initial length. and basically enwble a scrolling like approach..


> the main Apache site uses a module to generate the "News",
> http://openejb.apache.org/ too.
>

Ariel --

Thanks for pointing this out. This approach was mentioned in that  same
chat I had concerning ssi, but I couldn't readily find any additional
information. So, I'll take a look when I get a moment.

and ...

@Dave, re ssi. I know we use these for the header portion but I also
realize this is a like a one time thing that basically only happens at site
build (commit, publish) and is not a continual dynamic parse like enabling
ssi for the site would be, right? There seemed to be concern about the
overhead for ssi on a continual basis, even with specifying say an ".shtml"
extension. Plus, the concern about enabling this for such limited use.

Anyway, if we could do this via the CMS for "occasional" news items, ti
would be better I guess.

More investigation needed...


> See
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/infrastructure/site/trunk/newsfeed/README.txt
> It seems the DEFAULT_FEED_LOCATION is set to
> http://blogs.apache.org/foundation/feed/entries/rss , see
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/infrastructure/site/trunk/newsfeed/src/org/apache/site/Newsfeed.java
>
>
> Regards
> --
> Ariel Constenla-Haile
> La Plata, Argentina
>



-- 

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: [DISCUSS]: AOO 3.4.1 reflection and lessons learned

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/17/2012 04:24 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:

Hi,

AOO 3.4.1 was our second release and I would like to do some reflection
of the past and especially the hot phase in the end where we tried to
finalize the version. Things that were not so good and that can and
should be improved in the future. I am looking for general remarks and
feedback from people who were involved in this release process and who
were affected in one or the other way.

I would like to start first with some brainstorming and have created a
wiki page [1] to collect the outcome of this brainstorming and
reflection. This will hopefully help us to avoid mistakes for future
releases. It can hopefully also help to identify gaps that we have and
where we should focus a little bit more to close these gaps.

[1]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+3.4.1+Reflection+and+Review


Juergen --

Great observations from out release manager. I made one small change and 
added some comments.


--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] maybe time for a home page facelift?

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/27/2012 07:22 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:


On Sep 27, 2012, at 6:25 PM, Kevin Grignon wrote:


KG 02 - See comments inline.

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 5:12 AM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 09/25/2012 09:55 PM, Kevin Grignon wrote:


KG01 - See comments inline

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Dave Fisher 
wrote:



On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

Should we have a webdev list?




We discussed using the tags [WWW] last year.



In the past we did had dedicated list for each line of the project. I
am not sure this is something that should be discussed as the work on
redesign start growing.



Generally everything should be here.

KG01 - agreed






Some suggestions on the design of the site:
- Show the product, currently there is nothing visual that relates the
software with office productivity.




KG01 - I think we should focus on content before we worry about styling

or
visual design. Please create a wiki page on cwiki to capture the proposed
enhancements.



OK, wiki page done...please see

https://cwiki.apache.org/**confluence/x/WwPVAQ<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/WwPVAQ>

post comments, add items, etc...

I didn't propose anything just raised some questions, and provided a
marked up version of the home page with locational areas.

KG02 - Good stuff. Thanks for getting this going.





Perhaps we should setup an area in ooo-site where we can have a design

contest. Let me think about how to do that technically using the CMS.

Kay - you should continue to with whatever efforts you have in mind with
the main page. What I am thinking about is redesigning the headers and
footers.

- Responsive design, mobile browsers, tablets and devices can have

different dimensions on the site, having a RD conformant site could
help our users browse through the site.



Sure. I think the best strategy might be to use a common set of css tags
in device specific css files that can then be varied according to the
dimensions of the browser.

- Corporate theme, ViewVC, cWiki, Forum(?), Bugzilla have their own

theme, should there be efforts to adopt the same design like the
templates/extension/wiki site.



The way the CMS works the templates used for the websites can be ported by
the sysadmins and teams in the Forum and mWiki. cWiki is harder. I'm sure
that SF can follow as well.

- Website QA - Possible broken pages due to the change in frameworks

(from Oracle to Apache) on smaller projects.



Download the source, discuss any errors, make the changes - JFDI.

Regards,
Dave




On 9/25/12, Kay Schenk  wrote:


On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Kay Schenk 



wrote:



With our graduation coming up soon, it might be time for us to



consider



a

slight update to the user portal web site --
http://www.openoffice.org/--
for this momentous occasion.

To this end, I've moved some entities to the "test" directory, and


updated


robots.txt to not index this directory.

I've wanted to fix some of the styling for a while to deal with


horizontal


placement issues, but I'm sure some of you have some ideas as well.

Maybe a wiki page would be a good idea as well to present graphic


mockups of


ideas.





KG01 - Yes, good idea. Actually, UX is setting up a virtual studio to show
sketches, mockups and screen caps of ideas.




Good topic to bring up.

With graduation we'll have to think about changes to two websites.
www.openoffice.org, of course.  But also our project website, which
will end up at openoffice.apache.org. The mailing lists will also
update, e.g., ooo-dev@i.a.o --> d...@openoffice.apache.org.  Our
subversion tree changes as well.  Ditto for Apache dist directory.

So that leads to several sets of website changes:

1) Any rebranding we need/want to do, e.g. remove "incubator"
disclaimer and references.  There was talk at one point about
refreshing the logo design at this time as well.






KG01 - Short term re-branding could remove the "incubation" reference. More
broadly, we should style the site to reflect any updates to our branding.


For the website the words (incubating) are usually isolated to brand.mdtext 
files.

Many of these have been localized.

The incubator logo is referenced from a single place in the header template.






2) Updating URL's, email list address, SVN and dist directory
references.  There may be others.  This is pretty much a search &
replace operation.

3) Any work to "freshen" the website UI.  IMHO it is always a good
time to improve the website ;-)






KG01 - Long term UI refresh, should be associated with any enhancement to
our brand moving foward. 4.0 presents an opportunity to launch such a
re-branding.

KG01 - Who can lead a re-branding effort? Marketing? PMC? Thoughts?


The Apache Flex (incubating) held a logo contest and had over 50 entries. The 
selection was made via a multiphase voting method no

Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] maybe time for a home page facelift?

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/27/2012 01:58 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 09/27/2012 10:31 AM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:


On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 09/25/2012 03:47 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:



On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

   Should we have a webdev list?





We discussed using the tags [WWW] last year.


  In the past we did had dedicated list for each line of the project.

I am not sure this is something that should be discussed as the
work on redesign start growing.



Generally everything should be here.


  Some suggestions on the design of the site: - Show the product,

currently there is nothing visual that relates the software with
office productivity.



Perhaps we should setup an area in ooo-site where we can have a
design contest. Let me think about how to do that technically using
the CMS.

Kay - you should continue to with whatever efforts you have in mind
with the main page. What I am thinking about is redesigning the
headers and footers.



oh -- OK

I need to get back into more extensive learning with the CMS too. :/


Right now, I have some recent mods in

http://www.openoffice.org/test/

to deal with the horizontal scrolling and trying to put "constant" items
we have in the right side area into permanent areas in the left hand
column.

We can continue to use this area -- test. I would request that since I am
working on "index.html" which I hope to finish up and put into production
soon, that new designs be given some different name, along with
alternative
names for the basic style sheets.

[ In this regard, PLEASE HELP fix the styling on my links under the
social
area. I can not get this line to "move over" to align with the one above
AND keep this coloring for the links. Desperately in need of a CSS guru!
]




I think the fact that you are no longer using a  tag is what makes it
loose the inherit style. You have Twitter, Google+.




Well...all I can tell you is I used many many many permutations yesterday
trying to get this do what I wanted it to. :) to no use...

I confess I am quite behind in my CSS and  at this point.

I will try to do some quick catch up in this regard, and maybe some rather
large edits are needed to do something as simple as i'd like.



I still not totally sure what is the problem maybe I should check the SVN
but have u tried using some pseudo classes-elements. I find this site to be
helpful: http://w3schools.com/css/css_pseudo_classes.asp
at least for reference and remembering stuff.


Hi Alexandro --

Well I did get this fixed the way I was intending by yes, inserting 
another  tag as suggested (it could be I could arrange things a bit 
differently and now take one out), AND, fix the CSS definition for the 
anchors I wanted. My syntax was incorrect for what I wanted to happen.


As I said, I really DO need some additional CSS training. :/













- Responsive design, mobile browsers, tablets and devices can have



different dimensions on the site, having a RD conformant site
could help our users browse through the site.



  yes...another reason to make changes




  Sure. I think the best strategy might be to use a common set of css

tags in device specific css files that can then be varied according
to the dimensions of the browser.



That's one of the main reasons I wanted to do this. The two home page
columns are now laid out via percentages vs pixel widths.



- Corporate theme, ViewVC, cWiki, Forum(?), Bugzilla have their



own theme, should there be efforts to adopt the same design like
the templates/extension/wiki site.



The way the CMS works the templates used for the websites can be
ported by the sysadmins and teams in the Forum and mWiki. cWiki is
harder. I'm sure that SF can follow as well.

   - Website QA - Possible broken pages due to the change in


frameworks (from Oracle to Apache) on smaller projects.



Download the source, discuss any errors, make the changes - JFDI.

Regards, Dave



  On 9/25/12, Kay Schenk  wrote:


  On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Rob Weir 

wrote:

   On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Kay Schenk


 wrote:

  With our graduation coming up soon, it might be time for us

to consider a slight update to the user portal web site --
http://www.openoffice.org/-- for this momentous occasion.

To this end, I've moved some entities to the "test"
directory, and

  updated


  robots.txt to not index this directory.


I've wanted to fix some of the styling for a while to deal
with

  horizontal


  placement issues, but I'm sure some of you have some ideas as

well.

Maybe a wiki page would be a good idea as well to present
graphic

  mockups of


  ideas.



  Good topic to bring up.


With graduation we'll have to think about changes to two
websites. www.openoffice.org, of course.  But also our project
website, which will end up at ope

Re: [DISCUSS] [PMC] Proposed PMC Chair

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/27/2012 02:54 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:

I would like to nominate Andrea Pescetti.
Andrea is one of the most active and well respected members of the
project, and I believe he would make a great PMC Chair.

Andrew


I would nominate Andrea also... :)





On 9/27/2012 2:42 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:

Moving right along...

I'd like to restart the discussion over choosing a PMC Chair.  The
previous proposed process was discussed in:
http://markmail.org/message/mrgnjtiuum5bovjd
I'd like to take up where that left off.

Here is the process (with minor modifications) from the original:

   You can read about the duties of a PMC Chair here:
   http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair

   1) Nominations would be open for 72 hours.  Anyone can nominate
   someone for the role.  Self-nominations are fine.  And of course
   nominations can be declined.

   2) If there is only one nomination, then we are done, provided there
   are no sustained objections.

   3) If there is more than one nomination we discuss on the list for
   another 72 hours.  Discussion would primarily be on ooo-dev, but some
   subjects might be directed to ooo-private.

   4) If after 72-hours discussion there are still two or more nominees
   then we vote.  Everyone would be welcome to vote, but binding votes
   would be from PPMC members.  If there are more than 2 candidates,
   there will be a run-off vote between the top two nominees if none of
   the nominees receive an outright majority.


(note: the last item was changed from the original - nothing more
complicated than a two way run-off is needed, as it is unlikely we
have more than two nominees.)
I think this process is straight forward enough that we should just
begin the process now.

Andrew







--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: [UX] [Call for review] Task Prioritization Survey Questions

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/25/2012 10:50 PM, Kevin Grignon wrote:

Hello All,

I've captured a series of questions for inclusion in an upcoming AOO
survey. The questions are intended to help us understand which features and
capabilities are most frequently used in the editors. Insight from this
survey will help us focus our attention on core task, and help prioritize
future effort.

I've captured the questions in a spreadsheet. Please visit the UX wiki to
download and review the questions.

*AOO Survey Templates - Task Prioritization*
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/AOO_Survey_Templates_-_Task_Prioritization


I think this is a great approach at collecting information from users.

I just have one question. I see that some products, like LibreOffice, 
are only listed in one category, though they do have complete suites -- 
spreadsheet, etc. Was there any particular reason for this?


I'm not suggesting your change this. I'm just wondering why this was done.



These questions, along with others, will be included in re-usable question
packages that can be deployed in LimeSurvey, our new survey tooling. I will
send out a note on the LimeSurvey effort soon.

Regards,
Kevin



--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: News article integration with home page

[Kay Schenk]

Thanks for this feedback Rob...good observations to say the least...see 
inline


On 09/27/2012 05:57 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

Kay has started a page on the wiki to list possible areas where we can
improve the website:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=30737243

One of the ideas concerned the little news stories that we put on the home page.

Since I think I'm the only one that has been maintaining this part of
the website, let me explain how it works today, and why that sucks.

When it comes time to add a new story I do the following:

1) Edit the home page via the CMS

1a) Add a new story at the top
1b) Remove the oldest story from the bottom and move it to another
file, news/index.html

(This is especially annoying because 1a and 1b are structured
differently, so it is not a simple cut & paste)


I had explored recently the idea of just putting ALL the news items on 
news/index.html and then just dumping that via ssi into that right 
column with some appropriate formatting -- the css equivalent of frames. 
Infra didn't seem too jazzed about enabling ssi for the site although I 
see it's used to a certain extent in our headers (???). This would save 
us the duplicate editing, moving etc.




2) Send summaries of the news story out via Twitter, Google+, Facebook, etc.

We could probably do better than this.  For example we could do all
news stories via our existing project blog.  That removes the need for
a page of archival news stories, since Roller provides that.  We could
retrieve and parse the RSS or Atom feed for the blog to populate the
home page.  And there are services to autopost things to Twitter,
etc., from a feed as well.

Or this could be done from the other direction. We could do all short
news items via Twitter and then just do a Twitter stream on the home
page.

Or we could have a feed XML that we check into SVN and display on home page.


This last one sounds promising...



These are all variations of "one feed to rule them all".  There are
several variations on this basic idea.

Perhaps this would be an interesting small project for someone in the community?


Your ideas are good, and it would be great if someone could lead this 
investigation.




Regards,

-Rob



--

MzK

"Just 'cause you got the monkey off your back
 doesn't mean the circus has left town."
-- George Carlin

Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] maybe time for a home page facelift?

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/25/2012 09:55 PM, Kevin Grignon wrote:

KG01 - See comments inline

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Dave Fisher  wrote:



On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:


Should we have a webdev list?


We discussed using the tags [WWW] last year.



In the past we did had dedicated list for each line of the project. I
am not sure this is something that should be discussed as the work on
redesign start growing.


Generally everything should be here.


KG01 - agreed





Some suggestions on the design of the site:
- Show the product, currently there is nothing visual that relates the
software with office productivity.




KG01 - I think we should focus on content before we worry about styling or
visual design. Please create a wiki page on cwiki to capture the proposed
enhancements.


OK, wiki page done...please see

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/WwPVAQ

post comments, add items, etc...

I didn't propose anything just raised some questions, and provided a 
marked up version of the home page with locational areas.








Perhaps we should setup an area in ooo-site where we can have a design
contest. Let me think about how to do that technically using the CMS.

Kay - you should continue to with whatever efforts you have in mind with
the main page. What I am thinking about is redesigning the headers and
footers.


- Responsive design, mobile browsers, tablets and devices can have
different dimensions on the site, having a RD conformant site could
help our users browse through the site.


Sure. I think the best strategy might be to use a common set of css tags
in device specific css files that can then be varied according to the
dimensions of the browser.


- Corporate theme, ViewVC, cWiki, Forum(?), Bugzilla have their own
theme, should there be efforts to adopt the same design like the
templates/extension/wiki site.


The way the CMS works the templates used for the websites can be ported by
the sysadmins and teams in the Forum and mWiki. cWiki is harder. I'm sure
that SF can follow as well.


- Website QA - Possible broken pages due to the change in frameworks
(from Oracle to Apache) on smaller projects.


Download the source, discuss any errors, make the changes - JFDI.

Regards,
Dave




On 9/25/12, Kay Schenk  wrote:

On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:


On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Kay Schenk 

wrote:

With our graduation coming up soon, it might be time for us to

consider

a
slight update to the user portal web site --
http://www.openoffice.org/--
for this momentous occasion.

To this end, I've moved some entities to the "test" directory, and

updated

robots.txt to not index this directory.

I've wanted to fix some of the styling for a while to deal with

horizontal

placement issues, but I'm sure some of you have some ideas as well.

Maybe a wiki page would be a good idea as well to present graphic

mockups of

ideas.





KG01 - Yes, good idea. Actually, UX is setting up a virtual studio to show
sketches, mockups and screen caps of ideas.




Good topic to bring up.

With graduation we'll have to think about changes to two websites.
www.openoffice.org, of course.  But also our project website, which
will end up at openoffice.apache.org. The mailing lists will also
update, e.g., ooo-dev@i.a.o --> d...@openoffice.apache.org.  Our
subversion tree changes as well.  Ditto for Apache dist directory.

So that leads to several sets of website changes:

1) Any rebranding we need/want to do, e.g. remove "incubator"
disclaimer and references.  There was talk at one point about
refreshing the logo design at this time as well.




KG01 - Short term re-branding could remove the "incubation" reference. More
broadly, we should style the site to reflect any updates to our branding.




2) Updating URL's, email list address, SVN and dist directory
references.  There may be others.  This is pretty much a search &
replace operation.

3) Any work to "freshen" the website UI.  IMHO it is always a good
time to improve the website ;-)




KG01 - Long term UI refresh, should be associated with any enhancement to
our brand moving foward. 4.0 presents an opportunity to launch such a
re-branding.

KG01 - Who can lead a re-branding effort? Marketing? PMC? Thoughts?




I wonder if it would be a good time to rethink the default font on the
website.  Look at our plain text versus Mozilla's website, which uses
OpenSans (Apache 2.0 License):

http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/features/

http://www.google.com/webfonts/specimen/Open+Sans



KG01 - Agree, nice font. Very legible onscreen.




To me this is much more legible than our current font (Liberation?)



I know we'll have quite a number of references to change after we

graduate,

and I thought we were planning on using the area where we have the Apache
incubator icon for something else but I'd need to go look that up.

re: f

Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] maybe time for a home page facelift?

[Kay Schenk]

On 09/27/2012 10:31 AM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:




On 09/25/2012 03:47 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:



On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:

  Should we have a webdev list?




We discussed using the tags [WWW] last year.



In the past we did had dedicated list for each line of the project.
I am not sure this is something that should be discussed as the
work on redesign start growing.



Generally everything should be here.



Some suggestions on the design of the site: - Show the product,
currently there is nothing visual that relates the software with
office productivity.



Perhaps we should setup an area in ooo-site where we can have a
design contest. Let me think about how to do that technically using
the CMS.

Kay - you should continue to with whatever efforts you have in mind
with the main page. What I am thinking about is redesigning the
headers and footers.



oh -- OK

I need to get back into more extensive learning with the CMS too. :/


Right now, I have some recent mods in

http://www.openoffice.org/test/

to deal with the horizontal scrolling and trying to put "constant" items
we have in the right side area into permanent areas in the left hand column.

We can continue to use this area -- test. I would request that since I am
working on "index.html" which I hope to finish up and put into production
soon, that new designs be given some different name, along with alternative
names for the basic style sheets.

[ In this regard, PLEASE HELP fix the styling on my links under the social
area. I can not get this line to "move over" to align with the one above
AND keep this coloring for the links. Desperately in need of a CSS guru! ]



I think the fact that you are no longer using a  tag is what makes it
loose the inherit style. You have Twitter, Google+.




Well...all I can tell you is I used many many many permutations 
yesterday trying to get this do what I wanted it to. :) to no use...


I confess I am quite behind in my CSS and  at this point.

I will try to do some quick catch up in this regard, and maybe some 
rather large edits are needed to do something as simple as i'd like.









  - Responsive design, mobile browsers, tablets and devices can have

different dimensions on the site, having a RD conformant site
could help our users browse through the site.




yes...another reason to make changes




Sure. I think the best strategy might be to use a common set of css
tags in device specific css files that can then be varied according
to the dimensions of the browser.



That's one of the main reasons I wanted to do this. The two home page
columns are now laid out via percentages vs pixel widths.




  - Corporate theme, ViewVC, cWiki, Forum(?), Bugzilla have their

own theme, should there be efforts to adopt the same design like
the templates/extension/wiki site.



The way the CMS works the templates used for the websites can be
ported by the sysadmins and teams in the Forum and mWiki. cWiki is
harder. I'm sure that SF can follow as well.

  - Website QA - Possible broken pages due to the change in

frameworks (from Oracle to Apache) on smaller projects.



Download the source, discuss any errors, make the changes - JFDI.

Regards, Dave




On 9/25/12, Kay Schenk  wrote:


On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Rob Weir 
wrote:

  On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Kay Schenk

 wrote:


With our graduation coming up soon, it might be time for us
to consider a slight update to the user portal web site --
http://www.openoffice.org/-- for this momentous occasion.

To this end, I've moved some entities to the "test"
directory, and


updated


robots.txt to not index this directory.

I've wanted to fix some of the styling for a while to deal
with


horizontal


placement issues, but I'm sure some of you have some ideas as
well.

Maybe a wiki page would be a good idea as well to present
graphic


mockups of


ideas.



Good topic to bring up.

With graduation we'll have to think about changes to two
websites. www.openoffice.org, of course.  But also our project
website, which will end up at openoffice.apache.org. The
mailing lists will also update, e.g., ooo-dev@i.a.o -->
d...@openoffice.apache.org.  Our subversion tree changes as
well.  Ditto for Apache dist directory.

So that leads to several sets of website changes:

1) Any rebranding we need/want to do, e.g. remove "incubator"
disclaimer and references.  There was talk at one point about
refreshing the logo design at this time as well.

2) Updating URL's, email list address, SVN and dist directory
references.  There may be others.  This is pretty much a search
& replace operation.

3) Any work to "freshen" the website UI.  IMHO it is always a
good time to improve the website ;-)


I wonder if it would be a good time to rethink the default font
on the website.  Look at

Re: Call for comments: Webpage for Listing OpenOffice Consultants

[Kay Schenk]

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Kay Schenk  wrote:
> > see inline below...
> >
> >
> > On 09/26/2012 02:25 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:14 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Donald Whytock 
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Still suggesting some sort of expiration mechanism (perhaps a
> >>>> timestamp in the entry, with a scheduled job to prune), so this
> >>>> doesn't become a barnacle colony.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> One policy might be that once a year (or quarter or whatever) we
> >>> verify that the listed homepage and email address are still valid.
> >>> Ones that fail are removed.  Of course they could be re-added if the
> >>> resubmitted.  This is an easy-enough task if we have a listing of 20
> >>> consultants.  Less so with 200.  Maybe could be automated.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Dennis will like this.  Just thought of a "poka-yoke" approach to
> >> identifying obsolete listings.  Simply require that the logo be hosted
> >> by the listed company.  That way, if the company moves on, there is a
> >> good chance that the image link will break as well and this will be
> >> obvious when looking at the listings.
> >
> >
> > Yes, this is a very good idea!
> >
> >>
> >>> Auto-expiration could work as well, but we'd probably want to automate
> >>> a reminder courtesy note.
> >>>
> >>> This is not something we need to decide right now, except maybe to say
> >>> in the submission policy document that listings may be deleted if they
> >>> cease to be relevant, e.g., contact information becomes invalid, etc.
> >>>
> >>>> Don
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Rob Weir  wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another one of those "larger ecosystem" things I'll be pushing on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you recall the legacy OpenOffice.org project had a webpage that
> >>>>> listed various consultants who provided services for OpenOffice.  We
> >>>>> took it down because it was very out of date and we didn't have time
> >>>>> (at that time) to figure out the policy implications and update the
> >>>>> content.  Well guess what?  I have time now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > A draft of a proposed approach is on the wiki here:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Draft+--+Apache+OpenOffice+Consultants+Directory
> >>>>> <
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm working on the XSLT script now.  Looking good so far.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you read the wiki you'll see the policy implications are minimal:
> >>>>> We'll be fair and accept all relevant submitted listings, provided
> >>>>> they don't abuse ASF trademarks,   I don't think we need more than
> >>>>> that, but adding more is certainly easy enough.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Note also the disclaimer on the wiki, which I'll repeat here.  As a
> >>>>> non-profit we need to be careful about how we intersect with
> >>>>> commercial activities.  I think this is sufficient, but changes are
> >>>>> easy to make.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Disclaimer:   Although most individual users are able to download
> and
> >>>>> use Apache OpenOffice without any help, or with the assistance of
> >>>>> volunteers on our Forums and mailing lists, some users, especially
> >>>>> corporate users, may have more complex requirements that require
> >>>>> commercial services in order to optimize their deployments.  The
> >>>>> following individuals and firms offer services that may be of
> >>>>> interest.   The information provided here was provided by the
> entities
> >>>>> named here, and is not verified or endorsed by the Apache OpenOffice
> >>>>> project.  We offer these listings as a service to the ecosystem."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If there are no objections to this general approach, I'll proceed as
> >>>>> fo

Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] maybe time for a home page facelift?

[Kay Schenk]

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Dave Fisher  wrote:

>
> On Sep 26, 2012, at 4:23 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 09/25/2012 03:47 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Alexandro Colorado wrote:
> >>
> >>> Should we have a webdev list?
> >>
> >> We discussed using the tags [WWW] last year.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> In the past we did had dedicated list for each line of the project.
> >>> I am not sure this is something that should be discussed as the
> >>> work on redesign start growing.
> >>
> >> Generally everything should be here.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Some suggestions on the design of the site: - Show the product,
> >>> currently there is nothing visual that relates the software with
> >>> office productivity.
> >>
> >> Perhaps we should setup an area in ooo-site where we can have a
> >> design contest. Let me think about how to do that technically using
> >> the CMS.
> >>
> >> Kay - you should continue to with whatever efforts you have in mind
> >> with the main page. What I am thinking about is redesigning the
> >> headers and footers.
> >
> > oh -- OK
> >
> > I need to get back into more extensive learning with the CMS too. :/
> >
> >
> > Right now, I have some recent mods in
> >
> > http://www.openoffice.org/test/
> >
> > to deal with the horizontal scrolling and trying to put "constant" items
> we have in the right side area into permanent areas in the left hand column.
> >
> > We can continue to use this area -- test. I would request that since I
> am working on "index.html" which I hope to finish up and put into
> production soon, that new designs be given some different name, along with
> alternative names for the basic style sheets.
> >
> > [ In this regard, PLEASE HELP fix the styling on my links under the
> social area. I can not get this line to "move over" to align with the one
> above AND keep this coloring for the links. Desperately in need of a CSS
> guru! ]
>
> 
> https://twitter.com/apacheoo/";>
> Twitter, https://plus.google.com/u/0/114598373874764163668/about
> ">Google+,
>  href="https://www.facebook.com/ApacheOO/";>Facebook
> and https://www.facebook.com/groups/338330086179568/";>Facebook
> group.
> 
>
> Put a   inside the 
>
> 
> https://twitter.com/apacheoo/";>
> Twitter, https://plus.google.com/u/0/114598373874764163668/about
> ">Google+,
>  href="https://www.facebook.com/ApacheOO/";>Facebook
> and https://www.facebook.com/groups/338330086179568/";>Facebook
> group.
> 
>

Thanks for the suggestion. When I did that (yesterday), it aligned
correctly but wiped out the colored links. I'll try again. Given that this
page was originally designed with the styling to do all sorts of things
that it is no longer doing, I'm thinking the styling could be simplified at
this point.


>
> >
> >>
> >>> - Responsive design, mobile browsers, tablets and devices can have
> >>> different dimensions on the site, having a RD conformant site
> >>> could help our users browse through the site.
> >
> > yes...another reason to make changes
> >
> >>
> >> Sure. I think the best strategy might be to use a common set of css
> >> tags in device specific css files that can then be varied according
> >> to the dimensions of the browser.
> >
> > That's one of the main reasons I wanted to do this. The two home page
> columns are now laid out via percentages vs pixel widths.
>
> When they are pixel widths then they automatically stack. - good for a
> handheld.
>
> And that is the point!
>

Well...OK...I didn't like the right column dropping under. I will start the
wiki page today. I'm sure others have many good ideas on what would be good
at this point.


> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
> >
> >>
> >>> - Corporate theme, ViewVC, cWiki, Forum(?), Bugzilla have their
> >>> own theme, should there be efforts to adopt the same design like
> >>> the templates/extension/wiki site.
> >>
> >> The way the CMS works the templates used for the websites can be
> >> ported by the sysadmins and teams in the Forum and mWiki. cWiki is
> >> harder. I'm sure that SF can follow