[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
For an organizers' role, it seems best to follow what the dancers want, which is going to differ by the dance series. It could be the dancers you have, or the dancers you are trying to recruit, but it's very important to pay attention to what they like. That said, here are some additional reasons why callers' choice may work out for an individual group. 4. It's better to let callers learn and execute their craft, in their own way, than to try and micro-manage them. If you have a good caller visiting town, are you going to turn them away unless they use the right terms, or are you going to put them in so long as they draw a crowd? The situation reminds me of what a lot of public school teachers go through. There are often more administrators than teachers in a public school district, and to have something to do, they are always and forever stifling the teachers with new rules and constraints each year. Learning new terms is much harder on the callers than the dancers; we should be careful that one of the most important resources of a contra dance group isn't stuffed into a situation they're not excited to be in. 5. Dancers value diversity. It wouldn't be a very fun dance series if there was a worked-out optimal sequence of dances, instructions, and songs, and every single dance was exactly the same as the others. It would be like if the movie theater showed the same movie every weekend. I feel like contra dance is just going a certain direction, but at the same time, it will always be fun for people to sometimes do things the old-fashioned way. 6. Dancers are different from each other. Variety among the callers will pull in a generally larger crowd, because people will come for the caller that changed their life, and stay for the ones that are merely pretty cool. 7. Dancers evolve, but slowly. Even assuming the new terms are here to stay and will increasingly catch on, it's kinder and is gentler for retention to let people dip their toe into the new terms gradually. 8. People like to role play something they aren't, and for that process to happen, the role has to actually be something. One of my most memorable experiences was two friends of mine sussing each other out as queer after one made a sheepish, coded comment about really enjoying the theater. What an interesting choice of code. They had this long talk late into the night, and I belatedly learned that I could have been a much better friend to the one of them if I'd listened better and had any idea what she was trying to tell me. If you are spending a lot of time processing identity--who you are, what categories you are in--it can be very healing to participate in theater and to role play as something else. When you cast Peter Pan with a female actor, you're not making the role of Peter Pan be non-gendered, and you're not making the actor commit to being male. There's an air of ambiguity, laughter, and FUN about that kind of situation that wouldn't be possible if Peter Pan were changed to Nebish Nongendered. The issue for traditional contra dance is not that Peter Pan is gendered, but that some people are bored or resentful about always being Peter Pan, every single time, for years on end. Lex Spoon ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
I had an interesting chat with someone this out this week and what we came up with is that there might be two reasons we could think of why a dance might leave role terms up to the caller (note, I myself am both caller and organizer): 1. It's such a contentious issue in their community that no one feels that authority to or wants to take responsibility for making a decision. In this case I think it is a unfair to the dancers (who might want to know what terms will be called) and caller (who might have to deal with blowback at the dance) to pass that responsibility off to the caller. Alternatively, 2. It's such a non-issue in their community that the dancers really don't care what terms are being used and the caller is the most likely person to have an opinion. We callers are an opinionated bunch! If a "callers choice" policy allows the dance series book more callers with a minimum of fuss, and the dancers genuinely don't care, I think that's pretty justifiable. I guess there's also "3. the series is in the process of choosing new role terms" but I think that should be done with more deliberateness and communication than solely "caller's choice." Harris Lapiroff Dance Caller and Organizer Boston Intergenerational Dance Advocates Board (Cambridge MA) Pinewoods Camp, Inc Board (Plymouth MA) https://chromamine.com/contra/ On Wed, Nov 1, 2023, at 8:08 PM, Jeff Raymond via Organizers wrote: > Hi Don, thank you for responding to my comment. > Let me first say I'm delighted how folks younger than I are stepping up and > keeping our tradition vital. > Before we get lost in a swamp with these threads and multiple responses I'll > clarify my statement. > It was strictly in response to someone who appeared to be making a blanket > statement that all dance series should require callers to use gender neutral > terms as a way to draw in new dancers. > (Why it is in this thread). > That's a pretty much a control thing, in my mind. > I believe series should be free to set the stsndards as they wish. > I am glad to see the ever increasing inclusiveness of our events and feel, > generally, things are on the right track. > But in my belief individuals should be somewhat free to call, to dance, to > play in a way they are most comfortable. > We are all artists, in the end. > There is a saying "people will cone fir the band but leave because of the > caller" which if the organizers pay attention the market will sort out those > who dancers find onerous and objectionable. > Culture shift is not a bad thing and in my mind nothing draws better than > exuberance. > In the spirit of the joy of dance, Jeff > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:14 PM Don Veino via Organizers > wrote: >> As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if you >> are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make it >> clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be >> uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by >> leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all. >> >> My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and implementation >> policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the caller to >> decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half off for a >> given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either. >> >> "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, whatever - >> make the determination and let the people coming know in advance. >> >> I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't have a >> stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or decline the >> event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed from decades >> of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with no heads up. I >> first heard of it when I started hearing from people advocating for one or >> the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers wouldn't make the call and >> the publicity was already out there. Bad scene for all, not the way to set >> up dance joy. >> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers >> wrote: >> >> Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and forth >> from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the website, but I >> do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the Lawrence >> board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that responsibility >> and possible fall out from it. >> >> ___ >> Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
Hi Don, thank you for responding to my comment. Let me first say I'm delighted how folks younger than I are stepping up and keeping our tradition vital. Before we get lost in a swamp with these threads and multiple responses I'll clarify my statement. It was strictly in response to someone who appeared to be making a blanket statement that all dance series should require callers to use gender neutral terms as a way to draw in new dancers. (Why it is in this thread). That's a pretty much a control thing, in my mind. I believe series should be free to set the stsndards as they wish. I am glad to see the ever increasing inclusiveness of our events and feel, generally, things are on the right track. But in my belief individuals should be somewhat free to call, to dance, to play in a way they are most comfortable. We are all artists, in the end. There is a saying "people will cone fir the band but leave because of the caller" which if the organizers pay attention the market will sort out those who dancers find onerous and objectionable. Culture shift is not a bad thing and in my mind nothing draws better than exuberance. In the spirit of the joy of dance, Jeff On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:14 PM Don Veino via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if > you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make > it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be > uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by > leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all. > > My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and > implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the > caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half > off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either. > > "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, whatever > - make the determination and let the people coming know in advance. > > I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't have > a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or decline > the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed from > decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with no > heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people advocating > for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers wouldn't make > the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene for all, not > the way to set up dance joy. > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and forth > from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the website, but I > do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the Lawrence > board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that > responsibility and possible fall out from it. > > ___ > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
I liked the write up Flying Shoes Contra posted on their website regarding what Roles would be used at their dance. It explains that the board feels they must do what is in the long term interest of the dance. It explains what changes and what does not change with the role term decision. I understand the dance is in a rural area and is very well attended by all ages. Rob in Atlanta https://belfastflyingshoes.org/role-terms-at-bfs-contras/ Role Terms at BFS Contras July 23, 2020 All of the BFS board members take an active role in producing our events and outreach programs, we have fiduciary responsibility for our nonprofit, and we operate by consensus to make countless decisions about BFS. Some of these decisions are trivial, some merely involve logistics, and some require time for us to explore fully. After extensive discussion and deliberation, the BFS board has decided to retire the contra dance role terms Gents and Ladies*, in favor of the gender-neutral terms Larks and Robins. We’ve come to believe that the new terminology better represents our values as an organization, better reflects the character of Belfast Flying Shoes dances, and offers us all an opportunity to grow as contra dancers, individuals, and a community. We officially adopted this decision at our March 8 meeting. We intended to share the news in April or May, and planned to start using Larks and Robins as the role terms at our June 5 contras (when BFS board member and co-founder Chrissy Fowler would have been calling with the Gawler Family), but those plans got waylaid. At our July 6 board meeting, we agreed that we want to share our decision now, even though we don’t expect to be dancing together for quite some time yet. Why We’re Switching to Gender-Neutral Terminology for the Contras - It’s inclusive: Not all contra dancers identify as a gent or a lady; some identify differently than others expect. While “gents” and “ladies” may sound quaint or arbitrary to some of us, for others they carry a lot of cultural freight. - It reflects reality: Lots of Flying Shoes contra dancers are already comfortable dancing both roles. - It’s liberating: There’s no particular side you’re supposed to line up on; it depends on the role you’re dancing, and that choice is up to you and your dance partner. - It can make us all better dancers: Occasionally taking a less-familiar role allows us to see the dance through our partners’ eyes, helping us become more intuitive and responsive partners. - It’s fun: Dancing a less-familiar role is like stepping through the looking glass or driving on the opposite side of the road. It’s a fun challenge (like our own first contra dance experiences!), and that sort of thing is very good for your brain. - It’s totally flexible: If you’re most comfortable choosing the same role and lining up on the same side for every dance, feel free to do so. Same if you like to alternate your role throughout the evening. It’s all up to you and your dance partner. What Changes - Contra callers will refer to the dancers on the Right of the dance couple as Robins and those on the Left as Larks.* - That’s all! What Stays the Same as Before - Anyone can ask anyone else to dance. - Anyone is free to accept or decline an invitation to dance. - Each dance couple decides which dancer takes which role. - Each role is equally empowered to simultaneously lead & follow. - Both partners are equally responsible for ensuring that everyone ends up in the correct position, ready to dance with whomever they next meet in the set. - We’re here to have fun, and to help others have fun too. This final point is an important one. Together, we create the joy of BFS for ourselves and for others. We look forward to our shoes flying–eventually!–and we also look forward to stretching our Lark & Robin wings in flight. With love, BFS Board of Directors: Bruce Snider (president), Christina Barstow (treasurer), Chrissy Fowler (secretary), Raelin Callahan, Alex Mann, and Margo Burnham ** October 2022 – If you are accustomed to gent/lady role terms, but you can’t remember where the gent and lady roles stand in relation to their dance partner, whether at the beginning of a walk-through or after a swing, the gent is left and the lady is right.* On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 9:20 AM Emily Addison via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Chiming in from up in Ottawa way as both a caller and a long-time dance > organizer. > > I feel pretty strongly that the organizers should take ownership and > leadership in their community over the role terms that are used. Leaving > it to a caller, especially if visiting, is opening that caller up to lots > of dancers who may have strong opinions in that community. I don't feel > that it's the caller's role to carry the weight of the role terminology > discussion in a community. It's the organizers that are
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
Chiming in from up in Ottawa way as both a caller and a long-time dance organizer. I feel pretty strongly that the organizers should take ownership and leadership in their community over the role terms that are used. Leaving it to a caller, especially if visiting, is opening that caller up to lots of dancers who may have strong opinions in that community. I don't feel that it's the caller's role to carry the weight of the role terminology discussion in a community. It's the organizers that are doing all the other work and leaving it to the caller feels like a bit of a cop out to me. I do appreciate callers who engage with organizers to discuss the use of various role terms and increase the dialogue around this topic. But just as messages about safe communities/dancing should be led by the organizers and not left just to the caller, so should be this piece about the role terms. Despite my strongish stated message, I am totally open to other ideas/perspectives on this. Just my two cents given my current perspective. Emily in Ottawa ON On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 6:00 PM Jerome Grisanti via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > In Louisville, the group advertises which terminology the caller will use > per each dance. There may be dancers with strong preferences who choose to > attend or not based on that information, but I suspect most are flexible in > that metric. The choice is the caller's, the organizers just want to know > how to advertise it. > > Jerome Grisanti > ___ > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
In Louisville, the group advertises which terminology the caller will use per each dance. There may be dancers with strong preferences who choose to attend or not based on that information, but I suspect most are flexible in that metric. The choice is the caller's, the organizers just want to know how to advertise it. Jerome Grisanti ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
I want to highlight what David is saying, here. I think it's a different standard to gauge by when a community is _trying out_ new terms. While I agree a long-term "caller's choice" doesn't best serve a community, I do think that a transition / trial period does make sense. And as long as terms are published in advance, why not? Best regards, Julian Blechner On Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 5:41 PM David Kirchner via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I call in a community where the majority of callers use ladies/gents > terminology, and I am pushing the envelope by using positional calling. We > also have a caller who occasionally visits from elsewhere who routinely > uses larks/robins and probably would choose not to come at all if they had > to use ladies/gents. I think Don's point makes sense in communities where > this has been a contentious issue. But here, nearly all dancers seem to be > willing to roll with whatever as long as the calling is good quality. > Organizers stepping in and making an across-the-board decision that > enforces terminology would probably stifle the process of innovation, > rather than encouraging it. > > David > ___ > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
Jeff, My intention wasn't to start a big "Is Positional better or worse?" thread. Instead, my goal was to use a simple example of why lumping in Positional Calling as a generic genderfree role term choice may be another version of "leaving up the role terms to the caller" - which is the subject of this thread. For many organizers, it may only be important to distinguish between gendered vs non-gendered calling. For other organizers, lumping positional and Larks/Robins together is still pushing that responsibility from organizer to performer. There's no "correct" answer, but I don't think we can just assume that contrasting different types of genderfree Calling doesn't belong in this topic. Best regards, Julian Blechner On Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 1:10 PM Jeff Kaufman wrote: > Meta: this thread is on whether series should avoid "callers choice" > for roles; can folks who want to get into whether positional calling is a > good idea for contra start a new thread? > > Jeff > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 1:01 PM Julian Blechner via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> For what it's worth, I went to a dance where a caller chose >> role-name-light dances, and had this interaction with my partner, a >> college-age dancer who's reasonably experienced. We were just in hands four. >> >> (Small talk ensues, then unprompted:) >> Partner: "The second dance I got confused by something the caller said. I >> can't remember what exactly." >> (Dance had us in Long Lines, for a Larks allemande left.) >> Caller: "Left hand dancer with the left hand free ... allemande left" >> Partner: "That was it." >> (Next move is the same role does something else, again the caller chose >> to not just say "larks") >> >> Unless one is censoring one's repertoire severely, even dances with basic >> things like "one role allemandes after a long lines" which is in a >> bajillion dances, can get so much more wordy. And, if the dance has a few >> people need prompting mid-dance, there's no simple way to recover if you're >> avoiding saying a role name. >> >> So, I'd suggest any organizer who is considering allowing positional >> calling take the time to understand the ramifications to what that actually >> means. >> >> In dance, >> Julian Blechner >> >> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 9:28 AM Rich Dempsey via Organizers < >> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> In Rochester, NY, where our policy is "gender neutral calling", which >>> includes both positional and larks/robins terminology, I haven't noticed >>> that any dancer cares about the distinction. The real point for our dancers >>> is clarity and economy in teaching the dance so we can start the music. >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 1:20 AM Joe Harrington via Organizers < >>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> How do you feel, in a gender-neutral series, about leaving the decision of larks/robins vs. positional to the caller, so long as it's declared and publicized in advance? At least in some areas, there are not enough positional callers to have an all-positional series. Thanks, --jh-- On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:32 AM Lisa Marie Lunt via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is > both a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for > choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to > make decisions about our dances. > > Lisa Lunt > She/her > Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, >> if you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and >> make it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you >> may be uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please >> everybody" by leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst >> dynamic for all. >> >> My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and >> implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to >> the >> caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is >> half >> off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them >> either. >> >> "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, >> whatever - make the determination and let the people coming know in >> advance. >> >> I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't >> have a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or >> decline the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which >> changed >> from decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
I call in a community where the majority of callers use ladies/gents terminology, and I am pushing the envelope by using positional calling. We also have a caller who occasionally visits from elsewhere who routinely uses larks/robins and probably would choose not to come at all if they had to use ladies/gents. I think Don's point makes sense in communities where this has been a contentious issue. But here, nearly all dancers seem to be willing to roll with whatever as long as the calling is good quality. Organizers stepping in and making an across-the-board decision that enforces terminology would probably stifle the process of innovation, rather than encouraging it. David ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
TBF, the couple of dances who book me and are caller's choice on role names ask me to make the choice in advance and announce it on the calendar, which I think fulfills the requirement. For the contra I'm an organizer for - Palo Alto - our default since our return from the pandemic is larks and robins but we say "yes" if callers say they want to do positional and we don't usually announce *that*. If no role name is used I don't think we have to announce what role name we're not using. -- Alan From: Don Veino via Organizers Sent: Monday, October 30, 2023 12:25 PM To: Lisa Marie Lunt Cc: organizers shared weight Subject: [Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers Thanks for the support, Lisa. Of course, I'm just one opinion on this subject, but it comes from experience on both sides. My primary concern is actually for the dancers - I'll quote a bit I wrote to an off-list reply: My point is: being unclear about what dancers should expect on such a contentious issue, before they arrive at the dance, will ensure that somebody is surprised/ disappointed/ angry when the decision is made "on the fly" - I've seen dancers storm off the floor in such situations. It's unfair to stick the caller in such a charged situation from the start. But more importantly, it's unfair to the dancers who may be traveling a distance for anticipated fun. And, ultimately, the organizers end up having to deal with resultant issues anyway - in my opinion it's better to just address it up front. -Don On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:30 AM Lisa Marie Lunt mailto:lisal...@gmail.com>> wrote: I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is both a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to make decisions about our dances. Lisa Lunt She/her Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers mailto:organizers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
Thanks for the support, Lisa. Of course, I'm just one opinion on this subject, but it comes from experience on both sides. My primary concern is actually for the dancers - I'll quote a bit I wrote to an off-list reply: My point is: being unclear about what dancers should expect on such a > contentious issue, before they arrive at the dance, will ensure that > somebody is surprised/ disappointed/ angry when the decision is made "on > the fly" - I've seen dancers storm off the floor in such situations. It's > unfair to stick the caller in such a charged situation from the start. But > more importantly, it's unfair to the dancers who may be traveling a > distance for anticipated fun. And, ultimately, the organizers end up having > to deal with resultant issues anyway - in my opinion it's better to just > address it up front. -Don On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:30 AM Lisa Marie Lunt wrote: > I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is both > a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for > choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to > make decisions about our dances. > > Lisa Lunt > She/her > Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. >> > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
Meta: this thread is on whether series should avoid "callers choice" for roles; can folks who want to get into whether positional calling is a good idea for contra start a new thread? Jeff On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 1:01 PM Julian Blechner via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > For what it's worth, I went to a dance where a caller chose > role-name-light dances, and had this interaction with my partner, a > college-age dancer who's reasonably experienced. We were just in hands four. > > (Small talk ensues, then unprompted:) > Partner: "The second dance I got confused by something the caller said. I > can't remember what exactly." > (Dance had us in Long Lines, for a Larks allemande left.) > Caller: "Left hand dancer with the left hand free ... allemande left" > Partner: "That was it." > (Next move is the same role does something else, again the caller chose to > not just say "larks") > > Unless one is censoring one's repertoire severely, even dances with basic > things like "one role allemandes after a long lines" which is in a > bajillion dances, can get so much more wordy. And, if the dance has a few > people need prompting mid-dance, there's no simple way to recover if you're > avoiding saying a role name. > > So, I'd suggest any organizer who is considering allowing positional > calling take the time to understand the ramifications to what that actually > means. > > In dance, > Julian Blechner > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 9:28 AM Rich Dempsey via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> In Rochester, NY, where our policy is "gender neutral calling", which >> includes both positional and larks/robins terminology, I haven't noticed >> that any dancer cares about the distinction. The real point for our dancers >> is clarity and economy in teaching the dance so we can start the music. >> >> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 1:20 AM Joe Harrington via Organizers < >> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> How do you feel, in a gender-neutral series, about leaving the decision >>> of larks/robins vs. positional to the caller, so long as it's declared and >>> publicized in advance? At least in some areas, there are not enough >>> positional callers to have an all-positional series. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> --jh-- >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:32 AM Lisa Marie Lunt via Organizers < >>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is both a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to make decisions about our dances. Lisa Lunt She/her Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, > if you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and > make it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you > may be uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please > everybody" by leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst > dynamic for all. > > My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and > implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to > the > caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is > half > off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them > either. > > "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, > whatever - make the determination and let the people coming know in > advance. > > I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't > have a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or > decline the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed > from decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with > no heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people > advocating for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers > wouldn't make the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene > for all, not the way to set up dance joy. > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and > forth from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the > website, > but I do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the > Lawrence board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that > responsibility and possible fall out from it. > > ___ > Organizers mailing list --
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
For what it's worth, I went to a dance where a caller chose role-name-light dances, and had this interaction with my partner, a college-age dancer who's reasonably experienced. We were just in hands four. (Small talk ensues, then unprompted:) Partner: "The second dance I got confused by something the caller said. I can't remember what exactly." (Dance had us in Long Lines, for a Larks allemande left.) Caller: "Left hand dancer with the left hand free ... allemande left" Partner: "That was it." (Next move is the same role does something else, again the caller chose to not just say "larks") Unless one is censoring one's repertoire severely, even dances with basic things like "one role allemandes after a long lines" which is in a bajillion dances, can get so much more wordy. And, if the dance has a few people need prompting mid-dance, there's no simple way to recover if you're avoiding saying a role name. So, I'd suggest any organizer who is considering allowing positional calling take the time to understand the ramifications to what that actually means. In dance, Julian Blechner On Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 9:28 AM Rich Dempsey via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > In Rochester, NY, where our policy is "gender neutral calling", which > includes both positional and larks/robins terminology, I haven't noticed > that any dancer cares about the distinction. The real point for our dancers > is clarity and economy in teaching the dance so we can start the music. > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 1:20 AM Joe Harrington via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> How do you feel, in a gender-neutral series, about leaving the decision >> of larks/robins vs. positional to the caller, so long as it's declared and >> publicized in advance? At least in some areas, there are not enough >> positional callers to have an all-positional series. >> >> Thanks, >> >> --jh-- >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:32 AM Lisa Marie Lunt via Organizers < >> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is >>> both a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for >>> choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to >>> make decisions about our dances. >>> >>> Lisa Lunt >>> She/her >>> Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers < >>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all. My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either. "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, whatever - make the determination and let the people coming know in advance. I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't have a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or decline the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed from decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with no heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people advocating for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers wouldn't make the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene for all, not the way to set up dance joy. On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and forth from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the website, but I do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the Lawrence board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that responsibility and possible fall out from it. ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> ___ >>> Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> >> ___ >> Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net >> To
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
In Rochester, NY, where our policy is "gender neutral calling", which includes both positional and larks/robins terminology, I haven't noticed that any dancer cares about the distinction. The real point for our dancers is clarity and economy in teaching the dance so we can start the music. On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 1:20 AM Joe Harrington via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > How do you feel, in a gender-neutral series, about leaving the decision of > larks/robins vs. positional to the caller, so long as it's declared and > publicized in advance? At least in some areas, there are not enough > positional callers to have an all-positional series. > > Thanks, > > --jh-- > > > On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:32 AM Lisa Marie Lunt via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is >> both a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for >> choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to >> make decisions about our dances. >> >> Lisa Lunt >> She/her >> Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance >> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers < >> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if >>> you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make >>> it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be >>> uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by >>> leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all. >>> >>> My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and >>> implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the >>> caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half >>> off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either. >>> >>> "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, >>> whatever - make the determination and let the people coming know in advance. >>> >>> I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't >>> have a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or >>> decline the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed >>> from decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with >>> no heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people >>> advocating for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers >>> wouldn't make the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene >>> for all, not the way to set up dance joy. >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers < >>> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and >>> forth from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the website, >>> but I do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the >>> Lawrence board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that >>> responsibility and possible fall out from it. >>> >>> ___ >>> Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> >> ___ >> Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > ___ > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
How do you feel, in a gender-neutral series, about leaving the decision of larks/robins vs. positional to the caller, so long as it's declared and publicized in advance? At least in some areas, there are not enough positional callers to have an all-positional series. Thanks, --jh-- On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 12:32 AM Lisa Marie Lunt via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is both > a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for > choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to > make decisions about our dances. > > Lisa Lunt > She/her > Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if >> you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make >> it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be >> uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by >> leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all. >> >> My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and >> implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the >> caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half >> off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either. >> >> "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, >> whatever - make the determination and let the people coming know in advance. >> >> I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't >> have a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or >> decline the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed >> from decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with >> no heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people >> advocating for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers >> wouldn't make the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene >> for all, not the way to set up dance joy. >> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers < >> organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and >> forth from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the website, >> but I do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the >> Lawrence board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that >> responsibility and possible fall out from it. >> >> ___ >> Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >> > ___ > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
I think it's important to listen to what Don Veino just wrote. Don is both a caller and organizer. It's not fair to put the responsibility for choosing role names on the callers. It's the organizers' responsibility to make decisions about our dances. Lisa Lunt She/her Jamaica Plain (Boston) Gender Free Contra Dance On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:17 PM Don Veino via Organizers < organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if > you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make > it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be > uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by > leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all. > > My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and > implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the > caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half > off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either. > > "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, whatever > - make the determination and let the people coming know in advance. > > I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't have > a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or decline > the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed from > decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with no > heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people advocating > for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers wouldn't make > the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene for all, not > the way to set up dance joy. > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and forth > from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the website, but I > do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the Lawrence > board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that > responsibility and possible fall out from it. > > ___ > Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
[Organizers] Re: Dance Policy Decisions (e.g.: roles) Was: Attracting young dancers
And full disclosure - the dance series I help organize is clear on using Larks/ Robins. On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 4:13 PM Don Veino wrote: > As a caller and organizer, this is a hot button topic for me. Please, if > you are organizing a dance, take responsibility for this decision and make > it clearly public to your participants in advance. I understand you may be > uncomfortable making this choice and possibly want to "please everybody" by > leaving it to the caller but that just sets up the worst dynamic for all. > > My take is that the dance's organizers *own* the culture and > implementation policies of their dance. If you would not leave it up to the > caller to decide to do swing dance instead or declare the admission is half > off for a given event, then you shouldn't leave such a topic to them either. > > "Traditional", Larks/ Robins, positional - alternating per event, whatever > - make the determination and let the people coming know in advance. > > I personally will no longer accept bookings from a dance that doesn't have > a stated role term policy. I will call with the terms stated (or decline > the event). I had a booking for a longstanding dance which changed from > decades of "Traditional" to "Caller's Choice" after booking me, with no > heads up. I first heard of it when I started hearing from people advocating > for one or the other terms, as "my choice". The organizers wouldn't make > the call and the publicity was already out there. Bad scene for all, not > the way to set up dance joy. > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2023, 1:28 PM Sandy Seiler via Organizers < > organizers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > > Currently terminology is the caller's decision. So it goes back and forth > from gendered to non gendered. That is not mentioned on the website, but I > do know that at least one of our callers has requested that the Lawrence > board make a decision about it so the callers don't have that > responsibility and possible fall out from it. > > ___ Organizers mailing list -- organizers@lists.sharedweight.net To unsubscribe send an email to organizers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
