Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Thank you for the info. Certainly valuable. I'll dig a bit more about DDC and sync. W.r.t. Nvidia shutter, it seems that nvidia's objective was to get stereo "transparently" to the directx apps, not to be fully compliant with stereoscopic standards. Mmm. Not to useful to general stereo software like OSG (unless they add the announced support for quad buffer). Best regards, Himar. 2009/5/26 Jan Ciger > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Himar Carmona wrote: > > >> Don't know exactly how it works, but for sure the ir emitter use the USB > >> connection also for data. In a "normal" configuration (i.e. without > >> using the sync in plug), the ir emitter is connected to the pc only by > >> the usb cable and does not need to be plugged to the VGA connector. So, > >> i deduce that if it receives the DDC signal, then it is the driver that > >> enroute that signal. I also suppose that it uses some sync protocol > >> different than a simply square wave. > > That looks like some kind of NVIDIA proprietary solution :( > > EDIT: Scratch that. I have checked the link you have sent before > (http://www.int03.co.uk/crema/hardware/stereo/) and looked at the > schematics. LOL, that is certainly not anything USB-based :-p > > The whole device just gets your stereo sync from the VSYNC signal and > the only thing it needs USB for is 5V power for the flip-flop chip > inside. You could replace that with a standard wall-wart power adaptor > or a battery if you do not want USB there. > > > >> If you plug the ir emitter without installing the drivers it doesn't > >> work (blinks red), so i can't plug it in the first pc. I don't know > >> other stereoscopic systems (glasses + ir emitters), how they work or how > >> they are configured. This ones seems to be tightly integrated with the > >> software drivers. > > The "normal" way of doing this (e.g. the CrystalEyes glasses originally > used by SGI, "VESA" stereo) and all the Quadro line that supports stereo > work in a much simpler way. > > As soon as the quad buffer stereo visual is enabled by the application, > the card starts producing the stereo sync signal which is just a simple > 5V TTL level square wave output to the IR emitter. That is generated > directly by the hardware, there is nothing for the driver to do, just > turn it on - the signal flips depending on which framebuffer is selected > for rendering in the application. The emitters are connected using the > 3pin mini DIN plug - one pin 5V power for the emitter, one pin ground > and one pin the TTL sync signal (http://geektechnique.org/images/1927.jpg > ). > > Nvidia drivers require the stereo support being enabled in the settings > (in Windows in the profile, in Linux in xorg.conf), but that is all. For > Nvidia hardware you can also choose how to emit the signal - either > through the VGA connector or via the mini DIN plug - e.g. HMDs need it > on the VGA connector, like the popular eMagin Z800, despite having an > USB plug, that one is used only for power and the built-in tracker. > > I even have an old pair of Asus shutter glasses that are using > non-standard 3.5mm headphone jack, but the signals are the same 5V TTL > level (measured it with a scope). Asus shipped these with some of their > old GeForce 4 cards. On that card you had to use the old "consumer > stereo" drivers from Nvidia to get a stereo effect in Windows, however > the output is constantly on, there is nothing to enable or disable (the > glasses are on all the time). Most likely they have simply wired the > connector to the VSYNC signal. This has worked in Linux just fine > (render left/right frames alternating), but you do not have any control > over the sync, so sometimes the stereo polarity is wrong (eyes get > swapped due to application latency, e.g. opening a menu). > > Regards, > > Jan > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKHEzun11XseNj94gRAqZ3AKCfAbAFXry5bzXbNvdG0+sCkCug6wCfSHlE > QVBedWVlC5oAOcQ40iZUcH0= > =7lGQ > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Himar Carmona wrote: >> Don't know exactly how it works, but for sure the ir emitter use the USB >> connection also for data. In a "normal" configuration (i.e. without >> using the sync in plug), the ir emitter is connected to the pc only by >> the usb cable and does not need to be plugged to the VGA connector. So, >> i deduce that if it receives the DDC signal, then it is the driver that >> enroute that signal. I also suppose that it uses some sync protocol >> different than a simply square wave. That looks like some kind of NVIDIA proprietary solution :( EDIT: Scratch that. I have checked the link you have sent before (http://www.int03.co.uk/crema/hardware/stereo/) and looked at the schematics. LOL, that is certainly not anything USB-based :-p The whole device just gets your stereo sync from the VSYNC signal and the only thing it needs USB for is 5V power for the flip-flop chip inside. You could replace that with a standard wall-wart power adaptor or a battery if you do not want USB there. >> If you plug the ir emitter without installing the drivers it doesn't >> work (blinks red), so i can't plug it in the first pc. I don't know >> other stereoscopic systems (glasses + ir emitters), how they work or how >> they are configured. This ones seems to be tightly integrated with the >> software drivers. The "normal" way of doing this (e.g. the CrystalEyes glasses originally used by SGI, "VESA" stereo) and all the Quadro line that supports stereo work in a much simpler way. As soon as the quad buffer stereo visual is enabled by the application, the card starts producing the stereo sync signal which is just a simple 5V TTL level square wave output to the IR emitter. That is generated directly by the hardware, there is nothing for the driver to do, just turn it on - the signal flips depending on which framebuffer is selected for rendering in the application. The emitters are connected using the 3pin mini DIN plug - one pin 5V power for the emitter, one pin ground and one pin the TTL sync signal (http://geektechnique.org/images/1927.jpg). Nvidia drivers require the stereo support being enabled in the settings (in Windows in the profile, in Linux in xorg.conf), but that is all. For Nvidia hardware you can also choose how to emit the signal - either through the VGA connector or via the mini DIN plug - e.g. HMDs need it on the VGA connector, like the popular eMagin Z800, despite having an USB plug, that one is used only for power and the built-in tracker. I even have an old pair of Asus shutter glasses that are using non-standard 3.5mm headphone jack, but the signals are the same 5V TTL level (measured it with a scope). Asus shipped these with some of their old GeForce 4 cards. On that card you had to use the old "consumer stereo" drivers from Nvidia to get a stereo effect in Windows, however the output is constantly on, there is nothing to enable or disable (the glasses are on all the time). Most likely they have simply wired the connector to the VSYNC signal. This has worked in Linux just fine (render left/right frames alternating), but you do not have any control over the sync, so sometimes the stereo polarity is wrong (eyes get swapped due to application latency, e.g. opening a menu). Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKHEzun11XseNj94gRAqZ3AKCfAbAFXry5bzXbNvdG0+sCkCug6wCfSHlE QVBedWVlC5oAOcQ40iZUcH0= =7lGQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
2009/5/26 Jan Ciger > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Himar Carmona wrote: > >Our impressions: > > > > Though the glasses are "VESA compatible", the ir emitter doesn't > > work if it isn't connected to the pc via USB AND a DirectX application > > is running fullscreen. > > The ir emitter does not use the sync in signal if it is connected to > > a "3d ready" display (either samsung 120Hz lcd and DepthQ projector). It > > seems to prioritize the usb signal in these cases. > > Isn't the USB connection used just to get the power for the signal > converter? The stereo sync signal is normally emitted on the VGA > connector directly. > Don't know exactly how it works, but for sure the ir emitter use the USB connection also for data. In a "normal" configuration (i.e. without using the sync in plug), the ir emitter is connected to the pc only by the usb cable and does not need to be plugged to the VGA connector. So, i deduce that if it receives the DDC signal, then it is the driver that enroute that signal. I also suppose that it uses some sync protocol different than a simply square wave. > > That it doesn't work right with the displays you mention could be due to > the fact that they use the DDC signal for the original purpose - > communicating the monitor properties to the PC and - and therefore would > interfere with the stereo sync. > Working on windows, when you install the 3d vision driver, it installs a new group of options in the nvidia control panel to configure the stereoscopic display. It have a setup wizard and a test application to help in the process. If the graphic card detects a "3d ready" monitor (like the lcd samsung at 120Hz or the DepthQ projector), it disables the option to select generic crt display and hdtv dlp. And the only configuration possible that i found was to tell the driver to use one of these. In these cases, if you run the test appication, it tells you with an onscreen message that it does not detect the sync signal, so it forces you to connect via vga 3 connector's sync in plug. So, i supposed that: 1. if the graphics card is connected to a 3d ready display, the ir emitter will receive the sync via usb. 2. (else) if the driver is configured with a crt or dlp, the it will use the external sync in signal (another plug in the ir emitter). With the vertical sync of the vga connector injected through this plug (with the circuitry i mentioned in my post) and the driver configured as 2, the glasses works like a (VESA compatible?) ones. Notice also that we use 2 pcs: one with the quadro and osg installed (and without 3d vision driver, because they don't install for a quadro card), and the other with the vision driver and the ir emitter plugged. If you plug the ir emitter without installing the drivers it doesn't work (blinks red), so i can't plug it in the first pc. I don't know other stereoscopic systems (glasses + ir emitters), how they work or how they are configured. This ones seems to be tightly integrated with the software drivers. Regards, Himar. > > Regards, > > Jan > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKG8tbn11XseNj94gRAsX2AKCXY57SRXgaNn8pWz+NPxHgcCfVdwCfXNwx > RaKlxS06CKxziKwquvKpw5k= > =25NN > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Himar Carmona wrote: >Our impressions: > > Though the glasses are "VESA compatible", the ir emitter doesn't > work if it isn't connected to the pc via USB AND a DirectX application > is running fullscreen. > The ir emitter does not use the sync in signal if it is connected to > a "3d ready" display (either samsung 120Hz lcd and DepthQ projector). It > seems to prioritize the usb signal in these cases. Isn't the USB connection used just to get the power for the signal converter? The stereo sync signal is normally emitted on the VGA connector directly. That it doesn't work right with the displays you mention could be due to the fact that they use the DDC signal for the original purpose - communicating the monitor properties to the PC and - and therefore would interfere with the stereo sync. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKG8tbn11XseNj94gRAsX2AKCXY57SRXgaNn8pWz+NPxHgcCfVdwCfXNwx RaKlxS06CKxziKwquvKpw5k= =25NN -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi, interesting thread. Recently my team started experimentation with Stereo and the new Nvidia glasses. We use of course OSG, and we were wonder how we could use the glasses with OpenGL. Here are our impressions and results (for those of you who are interested): We have a Quadro FX 370 (i think this is the worst one for the Quadro series) and it has Stereo support (activation required via control panel), i.e. OSG can use QUAD_BUFFER, but it does not have the stereo plug, so we use this vga stereo adapter to generate the sync signal ( http://www.int03.co.uk/crema/hardware/stereo/) (use pin 10 and 14 of vga DB15, that is vertical sync). Recently i discovered that Lightspeed (DepthQ's vendor) sells an vga stereo adapter. I suppose there must be other vendors thats provides those, aren't they? Of course (thanks Nvidia), the 3d vision driver does not like Quadro drivers, so it does not install. Therefore we use another pc with a Geforce card, where we install the driver and the ir emitter. In this pc we configure the driver to use a HDTV DLP or a generic crt, otherwise the ir emitter neglects to use the minijack sync in signal. Also, for the ir emitter to work, it must have a fullscreen directx application running (we use the test from the control panel because we run on windows), otherwise it will be in standby mode. After some experimentation we achieved it and we were able to "see" in stereo with OSG in the other pc with the quadro. Our impressions: Though the glasses are "VESA compatible", the ir emitter doesn't work if it isn't connected to the pc via USB AND a DirectX application is running fullscreen. The ir emitter does not use the sync in signal if it is connected to a "3d ready" display (either samsung 120Hz lcd and DepthQ projector). It seems to prioritize the usb signal in these cases. The glasses doesn't work for us at 75Hz display vertical sync. We used 60Hz and all went ok, but with a 75Hz refresh rate we experimented sync problems. Rivatuner and 3d vision drivers aren't compatible with each other. You can't install them both (again, windows platform). Only one question without answer: Will the Nvidia shutter glasses work with a standalone DLP TV with 3d support? Where will the ir emitter be connected, via sync in signal to the tv or via usb cable to a pc? Will never know, the glasses are a bit of disappoinment. So, although we were able to make it work, it seems that there are only two options: Either Nvidia adds supports for quad buffer in their drivers (as stated here http://www.nvidia.com/object/quadro_stereo_technology.html) or we better stand with the "professional" shutter glasses and forgets about the Nvidia "only for games" ones. Ah, maybe someone out there with a Quadro FX with the stereo plug and the nvidia shutter glasses can reply me: Does the glasses work with it? Best Regards, Himar. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 pe...@iinet.net.au wrote: > I dont disagree, it would be quite advatageous to have this > standardised, but of course the display manufacturers have to add to > the cost of thier equipment. So if the display is marketed for > mainstream use, but some (smaller) market segments could use it for > stereo it does not make economic sense for the manufacturer to add > hardware and cost for a small (relatively) group, and jack up the > price for everyone. Well, the stereo TVs and such are hardly something an average Joe will buy. Also, the markup on this "specialty", "niche", whatever equipment is such that the cost of the converter is negligible compared to that. The deal is more to force the users to buy only the vendor's proprietary equipment, to bilk even more cash from them. E.g. Nvidia is shipping the same hardware as Quadro and GeForce, except that the latter is crippled so that they can command premium for the Quadro - pure profit. > Does this still apply if you run DVI to an lcd monitor ?? From my > recollection if you connect using DVI to a display device ALL the > stereoscopic features on a quadro are disabled, becasue the refresh > rate sync used to time the glasses is generated differently. > (im not sure on this and could easily be wrong) Didn't try this. But you can always use the DVI-VGA converter and use the analog signal. > The only way stereo works (is enabled) on a quadro is via the 15 pin > vga analougue (with the dvi ti vga adaptor), but then you cant use > the dual link dvi hi refresh capability of the new lcd monitors > ?? I have yet to see a dual link screen. I have a large 24" panel 1920x1680 and it doesn't need dual link. It runs at 60 Hz as any other LCD just fine. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKG0Srn11XseNj94gRAm5sAJ9/2MsDj4tbl1GtvHS1wtvtIBzQQQCeNUCc Vpsc6z8pe9l1st73kIEDQ/o= =xCZM -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
>That is possible. On the other hand, I do not see it as a necessarily >bad or evil thing to do, because every manufacturer who can make a >stereoscopic gizmo seems to have the compulsion to develop a proprietary >electrical interface and protocol for it as well. So this could force a >bit of sanity in the market. If your gadget needs something special, >build a decoder/converter in it and do not expect others to do your job. > >As a user, I personally prefer devices that use standard >protocols/connections, because then I know that it will likely work with >other software than the vendor-provided driver that will be likely >unsupported and not working on new Windows, new Linux kernel, X or >whatever. I dont disagree, it would be quite advatageous to have this standardised, but of course the display manufacturers have to add to the cost of thier equipment. So if the display is marketed for mainstream use, but some (smaller) market segments could use it for stereo it does not make economic sense for the manufacturer to add hardware and cost for a small (relatively) group, and jack up the price for everyone. >Shutter glasses with LCDs are a problem due to latencies of the LCD and >polarization issues (LCD has a polarizer in front of it). It is not >really a graphic card vendor problem - you need special LCD screen to be >able to use shutter glasses with it. yes you are correct i forgot about this. Then it should be that the new dual link 120Hz refr4esh lcd monitors that are being marketed as part as LCD stereo packs sould work fine with a quadro and cabled lcd shutter glasses > >Re USB sync - what for? To need a special driver and occupy an extra >port for the glasses? The VGA connector has everything you need for >this, even 5V power on it and the stereo signal circuitry is there >already on Nvidia cards. The only thing you would need is a cable >splitter with a connector for the glasses. Does this still apply if you run DVI to an lcd monitor ?? From my recollection if you connect using DVI to a display device ALL the stereoscopic features on a quadro are disabled, becasue the refresh rate sync used to time the glasses is generated differently. (im not sure on this and could easily be wrong) The only way stereo works (is enabled) on a quadro is via the 15 pin vga analougue (with the dvi ti vga adaptor), but then you cant use the dual link dvi hi refresh capability of the new lcd monitors ?? Hence the USB sync ? Again i could be wrong on this, if some one knows this is not the case please correct me >That is possible, but these are really huge bricks, if I remember right. >I would also hesitate buying DELL machine because of past experience >with their "service", but that is another discussion. Well our expereince was not bad. They are big, especially if you get the 17inch screen version. And while i never would purchase a DELL desktop i would get a dell laptop or server. Peted ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Le mercredi 20 mai 2009 à 14:18 +0200, Jan Ciger a écrit : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Jason Daly wrote: > > Pierre Bourdin (gmail) wrote: > >> Quad stereo is working well on my thinkpad T42p with a FireGL. > >> > > > > That's not too surprising. The FireGL is AMD/ATi's pro workstation > > card, so one would expect the features to be similar to Nvidia's QuadroFX. > > Well, not every FireGL and Quadro has stereo output, only certain > models. However, T42p was a decent machine, I had T41p with a FireGL T2 > (which didn't have stereo) myself and was happy with it, minus the > crappy Linux drivers for the graphic card. I was happy to have the stereo with my notebook, even if it is eating all the battery, heating the office... It's working ;-) But yes the drivers is crappy, and they have stopped updating it if I've well seen... If the stereo is working on OSX, it might be an interesting alternative... Pierre. > > Jan > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKE/Unn11XseNj94gRAjHZAJ9MOTgr2r5ax7Wv/BNkH/VJKsCBmgCgsl09 > XuaFKzuMnNGIQUGW6AHI38M= > =KY8Y > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org Pierre BOURDIN I.M.E.R.I.R. Av. Pascot BP 90443 66004 PERPIGNAN tél: 04 68 56 84 95 fax: 04 68 55 03 86 email: bour...@imerir.com ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
I just saw that the open-source Nouveau driver (http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/) is now the default NVidia driver in Fedora 11. I'm not saying most user's won't replace it with the mainstream NVidia driver, but it does show that Nouveau is far enough along for a major distribution to start using it. (Nouveau does have a mode that lets it work with the Gallium framework, as well) I agree with a lot of your points. Certainly an open-source driver will always be lagging behind the newest hardware, and it will take a good deal of time to provide all of the features that the vendor-supported binary drivers provide. Still, I've been wrong enough times that I've learned to avoid words like "never" and "impossible". :-) On the other side of the coin, a lot of people bash NVidia for their lack of openness, and certain business decisions they've made. While the best of these arguments may have some merit, I for one am glad to have a major vendor that supports Linux as well as it does. Vendors like this are hard to come by, and I think NVidia deserves more support for this than they sometimes get. I'm not saying people shouldn't keep asking for open-source drivers, just that they should do it politely, and with well-reasoned arguments. --"J" Jan Ciger wrote: The main issue is that you cannot have open source drivers without documentation, the framework doesn't really matter so much. Reverse engineering NVIDIA hardware is perhaps possible for a highly dedicated team of experts with top notch equipment, but completely unrealistic otherwise. And NVIDIA is not keen on opening up their documentation - even after their main competitors did so. Even if the documentation was in place (ATI, Intel), that doesn't guarantee a high-quality driver. Intel driver is out in the open for a long time and it is quite terrible these days. There is also the Via Chrome driver and it is quite bad as well, despite being open source - and I am not speaking about OpenGL support here, only basic stuff like not crashing your system. Furthermore, it will always play catch up because the development can start only when the hardware is on the market already. By the time the open driver is developed, the hardware would be obsolete. So while open source drivers are a nice idea, for a market dominated by one major player that keeps everything as closed as they can it is a non-starter, in my opinion. The only way forward is to actually put economical pressure on the company - when they see that they are losing business due to their boneheaded decisions, they will do something about it. Unfortunately, stereo is such a niche market that unless a huge customer weighs in, it is not likely going to happen. And those probably do not care about GeForces - the cost of few Quadros would be a drop in the sea in the overall costs of their projects. So I am not optimistic here. Whenever developing something for stereo these days, I am focusing on passive stereo that can be done with any graphic card. It doesn't have quad buffer, but that is not such a big deal for these applications. If shutter glasses or HMD requires sequential signal, then the blue line stereo is good enough (and cheap) hack - it would be good to have it supported in OSG, btw. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKE/Fmn11XseNj94gRAtpuAKCdkCExklHT+57dYWWG9VcZvFj8NwCgmgb9 zTY0754C/1WEDETuGFELGKU= =3FaB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Jan, I think I'll have agree to differ on the topic of topic quality of Open Source OpenGL drivers. Fully featured and good quality drivers take time to develop. It took us a long time to get the OSG feature competitive with proprietary scene graphs, but now... well most proprietary scene graphs are now dead, and we've gone from strength to strength. I believe once a good open source code base for drivers is established with a healthy community about them then they have every chance of doing a good job. The proprietary approach that NVidia have taken is likely to be short lived in the grand scheme of computing, give it 5 or 10 years and NVidia might not even exist anymore, or become something very different from what it is today. SGI were once totally dominant, and now they are just a bit of graphics history. I recently have begun exploring the world outside NVidia, and you know while drivers aren't quite as good as NVidia drivers the ATI drivers aren't actually too bad now - almost all of the OSG works well under Linux on my ATI card. Sure the bleeding edge features of OpenGL extensions aren't there, but not everyone needs this. My onboard Intel graphics system even worked pretty well and this is using the open sourced drivers. Now I would dearly wish that NVidia get over their proprietary approach to hardware specs and artificial market segmentation, it would be a great boon for OpenGL and the greater computer industry if they did. NVidia may find they have to move fast as the industry changes in response to advancing hardware technologies, or just get squeezed out the market altogether. Robert. On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Jan Ciger wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Robert, > > Robert Osfield wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Just caught up with the overnight discussion of frustration with >> NVidia's artificial restriction of stereo support in OpenGL. >> Personally I think that NVidia is hurting OpenGL and the stereo >> graphics market because of this position. >> >> The long solution term to this artificial driver restrictions has to >> be fully featured open source drivers across all platforms, then >> finally we'd have the ability to go and solve problems directly. >> Perhaps Gallium3D might eventually be our savior: >> >> http://www.tungstengraphics.com/wiki/index.php/Gallium3D >> >> Having competitive open source drivers would also raise the pressure >> on proprietary driver developers to deliver good stability, >> performance and all the features that the hardware is capable of. > > The main issue is that you cannot have open source drivers without > documentation, the framework doesn't really matter so much. Reverse > engineering NVIDIA hardware is perhaps possible for a highly dedicated > team of experts with top notch equipment, but completely unrealistic > otherwise. And NVIDIA is not keen on opening up their documentation - > even after their main competitors did so. > > Even if the documentation was in place (ATI, Intel), that doesn't > guarantee a high-quality driver. Intel driver is out in the open for a > long time and it is quite terrible these days. There is also the Via > Chrome driver and it is quite bad as well, despite being open source - > and I am not speaking about OpenGL support here, only basic stuff like > not crashing your system. > > Furthermore, it will always play catch up because the development can > start only when the hardware is on the market already. By the time the > open driver is developed, the hardware would be obsolete. > > So while open source drivers are a nice idea, for a market dominated by > one major player that keeps everything as closed as they can it is a > non-starter, in my opinion. > > The only way forward is to actually put economical pressure on the > company - when they see that they are losing business due to their > boneheaded decisions, they will do something about it. > > Unfortunately, stereo is such a niche market that unless a huge customer > weighs in, it is not likely going to happen. And those probably do not > care about GeForces - the cost of few Quadros would be a drop in the sea > in the overall costs of their projects. > > So I am not optimistic here. Whenever developing something for stereo > these days, I am focusing on passive stereo that can be done with any > graphic card. It doesn't have quad buffer, but that is not such a big > deal for these applications. If shutter glasses or HMD requires > sequential signal, then the blue line stereo is good enough (and cheap) > hack - it would be good to have it supported in OSG, btw. > > Regards, > > Jan > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKE/Fmn11XseNj94gRAtpuAKCdkCExklHT+57dYWWG9VcZvFj8NwCgmgb9 > zTY0754C/1WEDETuGFELGKU= > =3FaB > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ > osg-users mailing l
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jason Daly wrote: > Pierre Bourdin (gmail) wrote: >> Quad stereo is working well on my thinkpad T42p with a FireGL. >> > > That's not too surprising. The FireGL is AMD/ATi's pro workstation > card, so one would expect the features to be similar to Nvidia's QuadroFX. Well, not every FireGL and Quadro has stereo output, only certain models. However, T42p was a decent machine, I had T41p with a FireGL T2 (which didn't have stereo) myself and was happy with it, minus the crappy Linux drivers for the graphic card. Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKE/Unn11XseNj94gRAjHZAJ9MOTgr2r5ax7Wv/BNkH/VJKsCBmgCgsl09 XuaFKzuMnNGIQUGW6AHI38M= =KY8Y -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello, pe...@iinet.net.au wrote: > well i heard that previously nvidia was > adding new formats as a matter of course as they were developed, but > im told now nvidia will only include a display format for diff display > technology if the manufacturer of the display tech will pay a licence > fee to have thier format included. That is possible. On the other hand, I do not see it as a necessarily bad or evil thing to do, because every manufacturer who can make a stereoscopic gizmo seems to have the compulsion to develop a proprietary electrical interface and protocol for it as well. So this could force a bit of sanity in the market. If your gadget needs something special, build a decoder/converter in it and do not expect others to do your job. As a user, I personally prefer devices that use standard protocols/connections, because then I know that it will likely work with other software than the vendor-provided driver that will be likely unsupported and not working on new Windows, new Linux kernel, X or whatever. > The thing is that from my view it should not be a big deal for nvidia > to include a feature for the new glasses and usb sync technology to > work with quad buffer off a quadro fx > The ability to use lcd glasses with LCD monitors for desltop stereo is > a big deal, i dont recall its been doen before (other than usless lcd > glasses free technology that is not worth the cost). Seriously this > ability to use lcd glasses with a lcd monitor is realy a great thing, > and i cant imagine nvidia not providing it for the quadro, for > workstation users. It might be that the glasses are already available > for use with a 3 pin connector for the quadro, but ive been out of the > business for so long now i have not kept up to date. Shutter glasses with LCDs are a problem due to latencies of the LCD and polarization issues (LCD has a polarizer in front of it). It is not really a graphic card vendor problem - you need special LCD screen to be able to use shutter glasses with it. Re USB sync - what for? To need a special driver and occupy an extra port for the glasses? The VGA connector has everything you need for this, even 5V power on it and the stereo signal circuitry is there already on Nvidia cards. The only thing you would need is a cable splitter with a connector for the glasses. > As far as laptops go, DELL sell a range of workstation laptops, that > have built in Quadro FX vga cards and they support quad buffer stereo. > If you use lcd glasses on the external vga port that takes the sync > from there, there stereocpic works fine. I had one of these laptops at > my last workplace and did this. Our sales reps traveled the country > with them, all our expo demos were done in stereoscopic from these > DELL laptops. That is possible, but these are really huge bricks, if I remember right. I would also hesitate buying DELL machine because of past experience with their "service", but that is another discussion. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKE/R0n11XseNj94gRAtqoAJ9K7bDhzvJbwCJIAgA60D30we7EdQCgnDpg 7BZG85zKrRzD7L+nb+leIc8= =+eZ0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Robert, Robert Osfield wrote: > Hi All, > > Just caught up with the overnight discussion of frustration with > NVidia's artificial restriction of stereo support in OpenGL. > Personally I think that NVidia is hurting OpenGL and the stereo > graphics market because of this position. > > The long solution term to this artificial driver restrictions has to > be fully featured open source drivers across all platforms, then > finally we'd have the ability to go and solve problems directly. > Perhaps Gallium3D might eventually be our savior: > >http://www.tungstengraphics.com/wiki/index.php/Gallium3D > > Having competitive open source drivers would also raise the pressure > on proprietary driver developers to deliver good stability, > performance and all the features that the hardware is capable of. The main issue is that you cannot have open source drivers without documentation, the framework doesn't really matter so much. Reverse engineering NVIDIA hardware is perhaps possible for a highly dedicated team of experts with top notch equipment, but completely unrealistic otherwise. And NVIDIA is not keen on opening up their documentation - even after their main competitors did so. Even if the documentation was in place (ATI, Intel), that doesn't guarantee a high-quality driver. Intel driver is out in the open for a long time and it is quite terrible these days. There is also the Via Chrome driver and it is quite bad as well, despite being open source - and I am not speaking about OpenGL support here, only basic stuff like not crashing your system. Furthermore, it will always play catch up because the development can start only when the hardware is on the market already. By the time the open driver is developed, the hardware would be obsolete. So while open source drivers are a nice idea, for a market dominated by one major player that keeps everything as closed as they can it is a non-starter, in my opinion. The only way forward is to actually put economical pressure on the company - when they see that they are losing business due to their boneheaded decisions, they will do something about it. Unfortunately, stereo is such a niche market that unless a huge customer weighs in, it is not likely going to happen. And those probably do not care about GeForces - the cost of few Quadros would be a drop in the sea in the overall costs of their projects. So I am not optimistic here. Whenever developing something for stereo these days, I am focusing on passive stereo that can be done with any graphic card. It doesn't have quad buffer, but that is not such a big deal for these applications. If shutter glasses or HMD requires sequential signal, then the blue line stereo is good enough (and cheap) hack - it would be good to have it supported in OSG, btw. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKE/Fmn11XseNj94gRAtpuAKCdkCExklHT+57dYWWG9VcZvFj8NwCgmgb9 zTY0754C/1WEDETuGFELGKU= =3FaB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Pierre Bourdin (gmail) wrote: Quad stereo is working well on my thinkpad T42p with a FireGL. That's not too surprising. The FireGL is AMD/ATi's pro workstation card, so one would expect the features to be similar to Nvidia's QuadroFX. --"J" ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Philip Lamb wrote: > No, and although it wouldn't be too hard to drive the DDC signal > manually on a Mac (I believe this can be done through IOKit entirely > from userland API) getting it to sync correctly to the page-flip is more > challenging. Well, while you could probably drive the pin manually, you have no way to know when does the card actually flip the image. It is not necessarily synchronized with the VSYNC interrupt reported to software any more - I have seen the signal "lag" behind vsync by a frame or two. So this is not really a workable solution these days. There used to be a "soft genlock" for Linux that was doing this, but they stopped developing it long time ago. Still, isn't there something in the driver to enable the output? > My solution is clumsy but workable, which is two use the Stereographics > Stereoenabler (http://reald-corporate.com/scientific/stereoenabler.asp) > and then take the vesa 3-pin stereo signal > (http://www.stereoscopic.org/2001/standards.html) and re-inject it into > the VGA cable on pine 13 (the so-called "ELSA revelator" mode) via a > custom-made adapter. This works well with the eMagin z800, which is > still one of the best value 3D headsets out there. Yes, I was actually considering building this type of decoder, it is not too complicated. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKEvyPn11XseNj94gRAiLlAJ9iCqHEmD1Z8xBocGbxMssDHCxcjwCg5aco ZXHTTuoN2fEwsOT/hQwRbIg= =+J5V -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Quad stereo is working well on my thinkpad T42p with a FireGL. I've used it with Openscenegraph may times and it works well. It is very convenient to make a nice demo with a 3D DepthQ projector... It just miss a modern shader support... If you want to use it for active stereo, you need an adapter to synchronize the IR emitter... I now some notebook have quadro card too, so I guess it is also working. Pierre. Le mardi 12 mai 2009 à 08:56 -0400, Tomlinson, Gordon a écrit : > FYI > > QUAD Buffer stereo is only supported on the NVIDIA's Pro range the Quadro FX > cards, they do not support this on consumer cards > > > Gordon > Product Manager 3d > __ > Gordon Tomlinson > Email : gtomlinson @ overwatch.textron.com > __ > > > -Original Message- > From: osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org > [mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Osfield > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 6:27 AM > To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com; OpenSceneGraph Users > Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem > > Hi Olfat, > > The errors you are getting are due to lack of QUAD_BUFFER stereo support in > the driver. This is pretty poor considering that you've got the NVidia 3D > glasses. > > Perhaps the NVidia drivers only provide a hack for 3d support in 3rd party > apps, as they do for games. I would be worth contacting NVidia about it as > frankly selling hardware but not supporting quad buffer stereo in the drivers > is just plain incompetent/fraudulent. > > Robert. > > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:52 AM, olfat ibrahim > wrote: > > > > Also i wanted to clarify that when i tried to use the command line : > > > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > > > it gives me the following : > > > > Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file "QUAD_BUFFER". > > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > > > > --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: > > > > From: Robert Osfield > > Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem > > To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" > > > > Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 4:54 AM > > > > Hi Ibrahim? Olfat? Could you sign with your first name so we know how > > to address you, thanks, > > > > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:45 AM, olfat ibrahim > > > > wrote: > >> Hello > >> > >> Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems > >> to > > work > >> fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working > >> with it can any one help me ? > > > > By default the OSG will use anaglyphic stereo when you enable stereo, > > but it also supports a range of other stereo options. For shutter > > glasses you'll probably just need to request quad buffer stereo via: > > > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > > > For more command line details run > > > > osgviewer --help > > > > And via env vars: > > > > osgviewer --help-env > > > > Programatically you can enable stereo via osg::DisplaySettings (the > > above command line options and env vars just set it.) See the > > osgstreoimage example for an example of programmatically enabling > > stereo. > > > > There is a big but... and that's does you graphics card/OpenGL driver > > support quad buffer stereo. I can't answer this as you've provide no > > info w.r.t hardware/drivers you are using. For NVidia it's just their > > Quadro line that supports quad buffer stereo. > > > > Robert. > > > > > >
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi All, Just caught up with the overnight discussion of frustration with NVidia's artificial restriction of stereo support in OpenGL. Personally I think that NVidia is hurting OpenGL and the stereo graphics market because of this position. The long solution term to this artificial driver restrictions has to be fully featured open source drivers across all platforms, then finally we'd have the ability to go and solve problems directly. Perhaps Gallium3D might eventually be our savior: http://www.tungstengraphics.com/wiki/index.php/Gallium3D Having competitive open source drivers would also raise the pressure on proprietary driver developers to deliver good stability, performance and all the features that the hardware is capable of. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
On 19/05/2009, at 12:44 AM, Jan Ciger wrote: The caveat with using quad-buffered mode is that Apple's machines don't include any means of signalling the shutter glasses or stereo goggles, so you're back to using something like the Stereographics blue-line detector box to perform the signal extraction. It doesn't work through the VGA pin 13 DDC signal? That is what NVIDIA used to use on consumer cards before and it is an option on Quadros too. No, and although it wouldn't be too hard to drive the DDC signal manually on a Mac (I believe this can be done through IOKit entirely from userland API) getting it to sync correctly to the page-flip is more challenging. My solution is clumsy but workable, which is two use the Stereographics Stereoenabler (http://reald-corporate.com/scientific/stereoenabler.asp ) and then take the vesa 3-pin stereo signal (http://www.stereoscopic.org/2001/standards.html ) and re-inject it into the VGA cable on pine 13 (the so-called "ELSA revelator" mode) via a custom-made adapter. This works well with the eMagin z800, which is still one of the best value 3D headsets out there. Regards, Phil. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
I perosnally think it is quite correct to say the division of stereoscopic capability between the different hardware is an artifical market segmentation. Nvidia do restrict the quadbuffer stereo features to the high ened workstation cards, it does allow them to charge a premium for that product. Of course the people looking for the workstation cards are generally ok with paying the extra cost. It does suck. In addtion, yous all may be aware there are several types of stereo display technology available now, from projection systems to lcd monitors, to glasses free monitors, to samsung rear projection tv's etc etc. I heard this second hand (and i wont swear to it), but you know on the stereo drivers they have support for different stereo display technology, so you can run an opengl quad buffer application and in the dirvers you select the display device and it just works itself out to convert for that format, well i heard that previously nvidia was adding new formats as a matter of course as they were developed, but im told now nvidia will only include a display format for diff display technology if the manufacturer of the display tech will pay a licence fee to have thier format included. The thing is that from my view it should not be a big deal for nvidia to include a feature for the new glasses and usb sync technology to work with quad buffer off a quadro fx The ability to use lcd glasses with LCD monitors for desltop stereo is a big deal, i dont recall its been doen before (other than usless lcd glasses free technology that is not worth the cost). Seriously this ability to use lcd glasses with a lcd monitor is realy a great thing, and i cant imagine nvidia not providing it for the quadro, for workstation users. It might be that the glasses are already available for use with a 3 pin connector for the quadro, but ive been out of the business for so long now i have not kept up to date. As far as laptops go, DELL sell a range of workstation laptops, that have built in Quadro FX vga cards and they support quad buffer stereo. If you use lcd glasses on the external vga port that takes the sync from there, there stereocpic works fine. I had one of these laptops at my last workplace and did this. Our sales reps traveled the country with them, all our expo demos were done in stereoscopic from these DELL laptops. Peted ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Thomas, Thomas Hogarth wrote: > Hi Jan > > Yeah I gave it a test, saw the page flipping and no errors. I noticed > GL_STEREO was available in a little stats gathering app I wrote and > wasn't convinced myself so I had to give it a try. Maybe Nvidia are > finally coming to their senses. Nice to know, thanks for confirming this. Nvidia coming to senses is unlikely, though - otherwise they would be undercutting their ueber expensive Quadro line - there is little reason to shell out money for a Quadro these days unless you need stereo or genlock (e.g. for a cave). This is also likely why we are not going to see the "consumer stereo" support for OpenGL any time soon, I think :( > I'll try get my mac hooked up to a hmd or something to test if this is > truly working, but like I say from my test > > * The card has GL_STEREO > * Osg runs in Quadbuffered stereo > * It don't crash and I see page flipping. > > Interesting ay? Very much so! Apple HW looks quite attractive from this POV for development. BTW, if the stereo works, it is likely using the DDC pin to send out the flipping signal since it does not have a separate stereo output connector. If you have a DVI-VGA converter, try to hook up an oscilloscope to the pin 13 (I think) - you should see a TTL (~5 V) level square wave signal at the refresh rate of your monitor when the stereo is on. I will try to round up one of our Mac users here and subject their Mac to some testing :-p > PS > I've been meaning to post for a while about this, I work at a stereo 3D > company and currently have most types of 3D displays available. If > people like I can try and make some more official tests using OSGs > various drawing modes against each of the screens (for example one of > our hyundai screens has the eyes flipped by default) This would be pretty good to know - few people have such means to test things :) Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKEeaan11XseNj94gRAuK3AKCIXCnb//yD3r2JdKt4lz24FKnrNwCfbu81 vJDbHnfTeTfLN3ZWkvvzces= =/jox -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Philip Lamb wrote: > I can back this up. I have it direct from an engineer at Apple that > quad-buffered stereo is operational in almost the whole range of Apple > cards. This apparently caused some difficulty between Apple and Nvidia > in the past, as Nvidia wanted Apple to include the feature to drive > sales of the high-end Quadro cards, and now stereo-in-a-window is only > enabled on Quadro cards. Argh, nothing like a monopoly jacking up prices artificially :( It has been known that the hw can do it even on generic GeForces and that NVIDIA was intentionally disabling it - there is little need for their overpriced Quadros if your HMD can do only 800x600 anyway. Thanks for confirming this, though. The internet is suspiciously mum about this. > The caveat with using quad-buffered mode is that Apple's machines don't > include any means of signalling the shutter glasses or stereo goggles, > so you're back to using something like the Stereographics blue-line > detector box to perform the signal extraction. It doesn't work through the VGA pin 13 DDC signal? That is what NVIDIA used to use on consumer cards before and it is an option on Quadros too. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKEeTHn11XseNj94gRAtpkAKCKwLN0ILBFMyYJuB2JyhEOta6sPACfWT8r xTQZRuXaZW7YtGKHfnoFKVY= =0auQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Jan > >Do you have some source to back this up? Did you try if it actually > >works? You can do that even without glasses - if the mode is > >broken/unsupported you get an OpenGL error about unsupported visual. Yeah I gave it a test, saw the page flipping and no errors. I noticed GL_STEREO was available in a little stats gathering app I wrote and wasn't convinced myself so I had to give it a try. Maybe Nvidia are finally coming to their senses. > > > >Well, to be honest, this was a solution looking for both a problem and a > >market, in my opinion. With no 3D content to show on these > >ueber-expensive TVs, I wonder what did the managers smoke to think it > >was a good idea ... True :). We had one at work, it was fun to play with but not very practical. We even had one of the 2D to 3D conversion boxes they made (trying to increase the content). You get it thinking, this is going to be amazing, turned out you just made keyframe depth maps and it pretty much just interpolated them lol. I'll try get my mac hooked up to a hmd or something to test if this is truly working, but like I say from my test - The card has GL_STEREO - Osg runs in Quadbuffered stereo - It don't crash and I see page flipping. Interesting ay? Tom PS I've been meaning to post for a while about this, I work at a stereo 3D company and currently have most types of 3D displays available. If people like I can try and make some more official tests using OSGs various drawing modes against each of the screens (for example one of our hyundai screens has the eyes flipped by default) > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFKEbann11XseNj94gRAp7zAKDFIuzHqw/sfXuLugo9X9AZW6+tWQCgzFJa > IPE1diEWarK6Q8klDcHfuzM= > =sKp4 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
I can back this up. I have it direct from an engineer at Apple that quad-buffered stereo is operational in almost the whole range of Apple cards. This apparently caused some difficulty between Apple and Nvidia in the past, as Nvidia wanted Apple to include the feature to drive sales of the high-end Quadro cards, and now stereo-in-a-window is only enabled on Quadro cards. The caveat with using quad-buffered mode is that Apple's machines don't include any means of signalling the shutter glasses or stereo goggles, so you're back to using something like the Stereographics blue-line detector box to perform the signal extraction. Regards, Phil. On 18/05/2009, at 9:27 PM, Jan Ciger wrote: Thomas Hogarth wrote: Hi Peted Liked your info on Quadbuffered opengl and stereo modes. I have one interesting point to add. I recently brought a MacBook with an Nvidia 9400m graphics card. This card 'does' support quadbuffered opengl and seemingly so do all recent Macs using Geforce graphics cards. Do you have some source to back this up? Did you try if it actually works? You can do that even without glasses - if the mode is broken/unsupported you get an OpenGL error about unsupported visual. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Thomas, Thomas Hogarth wrote: > Hi Peted > > Liked your info on Quadbuffered opengl and stereo modes. I have one > interesting point to add. I recently brought a MacBook with an Nvidia > 9400m graphics card. This card 'does' support quadbuffered opengl and > seemingly so do all recent Macs using Geforce graphics cards. Do you have some source to back this up? Did you try if it actually works? You can do that even without glasses - if the mode is broken/unsupported you get an OpenGL error about unsupported visual. I tried googling for some additional info and didn't find anything. If this is true, it would be the first consumer Nvidia device that would have it, not to mention a laptop. Normally only the high-end Quadros have this feature enabled. The hardware is on the GeForces too for the most part, but disabled/unsupported by the drivers. It used to be possible to hack the driver/card to think it is a Quadro and enable this, but that hack doesn't work since a few years any more. > On another Stereo note, sadly Philips has stopped making their 3DWow > range so looks like OSGs support will not be as great as I had hoped. Well, to be honest, this was a solution looking for both a problem and a market, in my opinion. With no 3D content to show on these ueber-expensive TVs, I wonder what did the managers smoke to think it was a good idea ... On the other hand, getting a projector is possible under 200-300 EUR these days, so two DLP projectors, a simple jig, pair of filters and you have a better passive stereo than any of those TVs, and not tied to any particular graphic card or drivers (anything with two outputs will do). With the new LED projectors you can even have a desktop solution (up to 60" image in normal ambient light) without having to worry about the lamp costs ... Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKEbann11XseNj94gRAp7zAKDFIuzHqw/sfXuLugo9X9AZW6+tWQCgzFJa IPE1diEWarK6Q8klDcHfuzM= =sKp4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Peted Liked your info on Quadbuffered opengl and stereo modes. I have one interesting point to add. I recently brought a MacBook with an Nvidia 9400m graphics card. This card 'does' support quadbuffered opengl and seemingly so do all recent Macs using Geforce graphics cards. I guess it's because they have control over the hardware and drivers, but it's an interesting point. Only big problem is my Mac only has one display port and I don't have any shutter glasses :) Cheers Tom On another Stereo note, sadly Philips has stopped making their 3DWow range so looks like OSGs support will not be as great as I had hoped. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Jason, I'm not sure RivaTuner will help in this context as there is the new USB hardware for doing the shutter glasses sync, this will need the driver to control it, so I'd expect the NVidia driver will need to specially about this hardware. One could try it... and then report back... Robert. On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 7:27 PM, Jason Daly wrote: > Robert Osfield wrote: >> >> I look forward to the day when NVidia do the right thing on this. >> It's about time low cost stereo was rolled out. >> > > In the meantime, there's always RivaTuner (at least for Windows users): > > http://www.guru3d.com/category/rivatuner/ > > I haven't used it in a while, but it has the ability to tweak graphics cards > at both the registry and the driver level. One capability is to "soft-mod" > a GeForce into a Quadro FX card, providing many of the features that would > otherwise be missing (including quad-buffer visuals). > > Using it might void your warranty, though, so consider that before trying it > out. > > --"J" > > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Robert Osfield wrote: I look forward to the day when NVidia do the right thing on this. It's about time low cost stereo was rolled out. In the meantime, there's always RivaTuner (at least for Windows users): http://www.guru3d.com/category/rivatuner/ I haven't used it in a while, but it has the ability to tweak graphics cards at both the registry and the driver level. One capability is to "soft-mod" a GeForce into a Quadro FX card, providing many of the features that would otherwise be missing (including quad-buffer visuals). Using it might void your warranty, though, so consider that before trying it out. --"J" ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Peted, I agree with much of what you have written, but... it does seem like you are missing a few bits of knowledge about the new Geforce stereo glasses set up. The new system uses a USB based transmitter that means the hardware for the glasses sync is decoupled the graphics card, so any consumer NVidia card will be able to stereo, the only missing bit in the jigsaw is the driver support for quad buffer stereo in the OpenGL drivers for these cards. Adding quad buffer stereo to the consumer cards drivers should be a trivial addition to the drivers, far less work that doing the stereo hacks that they've done for Direct3D. The only thing that NVidia need to do is make the decision to implement this for OpenGL, there is no technical reason why they can't implemented it right away all the hardware is there, add almost certainly the software is there to, it's only artificial market segmentation in the way. I look forward to the day when NVidia do the right thing on this. It's about time low cost stereo was rolled out. Robert. On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:00 AM, wrote: > There is one possibility that MAY work. I cetainly dont guarentee it. > > I used to work extensivesly selling and assembling hardware and > developing software for 3d stereoscopic VR systems up till about 1 > year ago, so some of what i say may be out of date. > > It is quite correct to say that of the NVIDIA cards the only ones that > support Quadbuffer stereo are the proffesiional range QUADRO FX > workstation cards. These are workstation cards aimed at the > proffesional user and as a example a Quadro FX 4500 would set you back > $AUS 4500.00 > > With one of these cards you can use software written for quadbuffer > software and the nvidia drivers even have options to output in > different stereo formats to different stereo display devices, so they > are very flexiable and desirable cards if you can afford them. > > > Dont mistake the cheap crap quadro multiscreen range for this, the > ones needed are QUADRO FX and can be identified by having on the back > of the card a THREE (3) pin round connector for the lcd shutter > glasses to connect. > > This is very important. Every second day i would have someone ring up > and say "ive got a card with this connector but my glasses dont work" > Of course what they had was a Geforce with a 4 FOUR pin SVHS > connector, but do you think i could convince them of this ? > > > The standard Geforce gaming cards DO NOT SUPPORT QUAD BUFFER STEREO, > they never have and they never will. > > All 3D stereo/glasses accessories/drivers that produce 3d stereo on a > Geforce card are hacks by Nvidia that interupt the opengl/directx > rendering, and attempt to introduce 3d stereo by overriding the game > renderding and producing an left right image. > How well this works depends on the Game, and how the game is put > together, and can vary a lot. > So you can see this teqchnique does not rely on your software > supporting stereo, it tries to add stereo to exisitng games. Another > limitation of this is it only works full screen without window > borders. > > Opengl quadbuffer stereo can work in windows on the desktop, you can > have a stereo display inside a window with the rest of the desktop > looking normal or you can have it full screen. > > The whole opengl quadbuffer thing goes right back to the orignal > opengl development on SGI machines from years ago, and has been part > of opengl ever since. As far as im aware the only directx stereo > options are 3rd party hacks and i would never ever use them for a > proffesional display. > > > Also i think the stereo sync singal for the glasses that comes out of > the 3 pin connector on the quadro is leached of the sync signal from > the Analogue VGA port of the grpahics card > > So if you have a regular Geforce card, and you have lcd shutter > glasses that connect and get a signal from the VGA port (there are > several manufacturers that produce such glasses readily availbale) and > you are using XP you can try a program called Rivatuner from > Guru3d.com. > I did this about 1.5 years ago and it worked ok, but i certainly dont > guarentee any results for anyone. > When you install rivatuner you can install a driver to change the > PCIID of the graphics card to make it think it is a quadro FX, and as > a result have the quadro FX driver features including the quadbuffer > stereo capability. You can then run quad buffer stereo software on > your geforce that is now thinking it is a QuadroFX. Your VGA attached > glasses should work, once you run you stereo application. > This worked for me about 1.5 years ago, if there have been software or > hadrware changes that prevent this from functioning then you are on > your own. > You wont get Quadro performance out of your geforce doing this, and > the "consumer stereo" feature for games previosuly avaialbel will not > work either. > > Peted > > > > > ___ > osg-users mailing lis
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
There is one possibility that MAY work. I cetainly dont guarentee it. I used to work extensivesly selling and assembling hardware and developing software for 3d stereoscopic VR systems up till about 1 year ago, so some of what i say may be out of date. It is quite correct to say that of the NVIDIA cards the only ones that support Quadbuffer stereo are the proffesiional range QUADRO FX workstation cards. These are workstation cards aimed at the proffesional user and as a example a Quadro FX 4500 would set you back $AUS 4500.00 With one of these cards you can use software written for quadbuffer software and the nvidia drivers even have options to output in different stereo formats to different stereo display devices, so they are very flexiable and desirable cards if you can afford them. Dont mistake the cheap crap quadro multiscreen range for this, the ones needed are QUADRO FX and can be identified by having on the back of the card a THREE (3) pin round connector for the lcd shutter glasses to connect. This is very important. Every second day i would have someone ring up and say "ive got a card with this connector but my glasses dont work" Of course what they had was a Geforce with a 4 FOUR pin SVHS connector, but do you think i could convince them of this ? The standard Geforce gaming cards DO NOT SUPPORT QUAD BUFFER STEREO, they never have and they never will. All 3D stereo/glasses accessories/drivers that produce 3d stereo on a Geforce card are hacks by Nvidia that interupt the opengl/directx rendering, and attempt to introduce 3d stereo by overriding the game renderding and producing an left right image. How well this works depends on the Game, and how the game is put together, and can vary a lot. So you can see this teqchnique does not rely on your software supporting stereo, it tries to add stereo to exisitng games. Another limitation of this is it only works full screen without window borders. Opengl quadbuffer stereo can work in windows on the desktop, you can have a stereo display inside a window with the rest of the desktop looking normal or you can have it full screen. The whole opengl quadbuffer thing goes right back to the orignal opengl development on SGI machines from years ago, and has been part of opengl ever since. As far as im aware the only directx stereo options are 3rd party hacks and i would never ever use them for a proffesional display. Also i think the stereo sync singal for the glasses that comes out of the 3 pin connector on the quadro is leached of the sync signal from the Analogue VGA port of the grpahics card So if you have a regular Geforce card, and you have lcd shutter glasses that connect and get a signal from the VGA port (there are several manufacturers that produce such glasses readily availbale) and you are using XP you can try a program called Rivatuner from Guru3d.com. I did this about 1.5 years ago and it worked ok, but i certainly dont guarentee any results for anyone. When you install rivatuner you can install a driver to change the PCIID of the graphics card to make it think it is a quadro FX, and as a result have the quadro FX driver features including the quadbuffer stereo capability. You can then run quad buffer stereo software on your geforce that is now thinking it is a QuadroFX. Your VGA attached glasses should work, once you run you stereo application. This worked for me about 1.5 years ago, if there have been software or hadrware changes that prevent this from functioning then you are on your own. You wont get Quadro performance out of your geforce doing this, and the "consumer stereo" feature for games previosuly avaialbel will not work either. Peted ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Jan Ciger wrote: I guess they are trying to prevent cannibalization of the sales of their overpriced Quadros by cheaper GeForces :( May be not. At Laval Virtual last month (french VR conference) NVidia showed an early version of their driver which handle OpenGL, and said that a 'professional' version of the 3D Vision system will be available this autumn (OpenGL and linux support, more robust glasses) jcl ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 olfat ibrahim wrote: > One final Q what is the glasses or HW type u recommend for the stereo > display ? You will need an Nvidia Quadro card and regular stereo glasses (e.g. Crystal Eyes). I am not sure whether the cheap consumer glasses work with Quadros. Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKChDOn11XseNj94gRAgpcAJ9yhJocuZgcAoIdCxN16v2Le4de9wCePjx/ Vg8fWFvpW+k4kq75S8Q4mKw= =Xg1l -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Robert, Olfat, Robert Osfield wrote: > Hi Olfat, > > The errors you are getting are due to lack of QUAD_BUFFER stereo > support in the driver. This is pretty poor considering that you've > got the NVidia 3D glasses. > > Perhaps the NVidia drivers only provide a hack for 3d support in 3rd > party apps, as they do for games. I would be worth contacting NVidia > about it as frankly selling hardware but not supporting quad buffer > stereo in the drivers is just plain incompetent/fraudulent. > > Robert. That is completely normal - QUAD_BUFFER works and is supported only on certain (not all!) cards from the Quadro line, not on any GeForces. This thing with the Nvidia 3D glasses is the same hack as what they were doing before with the "consumer stereo" driver which was creating the stereo image automatically in the driver and drove the glasses using the DCC pin of the VGA connector. However, right now there is no OpenGL support for this new version of the driver, only DirectX as it is marketed towards games, so it will not work with OSG at all. I guess they are trying to prevent cannibalization of the sales of their overpriced Quadros by cheaper GeForces :( Regards, Jan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mandriva - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFKChBpn11XseNj94gRAllOAKDCuYwsliKCDW0vKB9FNnH/c5/nbQCfdatQ FkLSKOrnpjSroGXDDSJVrS4= =JumX -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
One final Q what is the glasses or HW type u recommend for the stereo display ? --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: From: Robert Osfield Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 10:05 AM Hi Olfat, On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:49 PM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > > i used exactly the line : > > osgviewerd cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > but it give me the previous worning and when the window opend the shutter > did not sence it at all I find it odd that you're getting a error relating to the parsing of QUAD_BUFFER command line string as a file name. I've tried to reproduce this error at my end with lots of different combinations but can't, the command line parser always works correctly. Others do use quad buffer stereo with the OSG successfully, but probably only with drivers that officially support it. As a sanity test, does osgviewer cow.osg work fine? Also try setting the stereo mode via the env var: set OSG_STEREO_MODE=QUAD_BUFFER osgviewer cow.osg --stereo Beyond the above there isn't anything I do to help any further. I don't have the hardware or OS to test against. If the above doesn't work go complain to Nvidia. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Olfat, On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:49 PM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > > i used exactly the line : > > osgviewerd cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > but it give me the previous worning and when the window opend the shutter > did not sence it at all I find it odd that you're getting a error relating to the parsing of QUAD_BUFFER command line string as a file name. I've tried to reproduce this error at my end with lots of different combinations but can't, the command line parser always works correctly. Others do use quad buffer stereo with the OSG successfully, but probably only with drivers that officially support it. As a sanity test, does osgviewer cow.osg work fine? Also try setting the stereo mode via the env var: set OSG_STEREO_MODE=QUAD_BUFFER osgviewer cow.osg --stereo Beyond the above there isn't anything I do to help any further. I don't have the hardware or OS to test against. If the above doesn't work go complain to Nvidia. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
i used exactly the line : osgviewerd cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER but it give me the previous worning and when the window opend the shutter did not sence it at all should i change the shutter or what ? --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: From: Robert Osfield Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 9:23 AM HI Olfat, On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:49 PM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > > Hello > > i got into Nvidia website and downloaded the last driver version for my > glasses. the glassess still not filling my application but it is now give > only the following error. > > Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file > "QUAD_BUFFER". > > u saing that it is not working with openGL so any one have any > recommendations for me. Exactly what command line are you using now? It sounds like you might have an error on the command line. Please have a look back over my earlier email. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
HI Olfat, On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:49 PM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > > Hello > > i got into Nvidia website and downloaded the last driver version for my > glasses. the glassess still not filling my application but it is now give > only the following error. > > Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file > "QUAD_BUFFER". > > u saing that it is not working with openGL so any one have any > recommendations for me. Exactly what command line are you using now? It sounds like you might have an error on the command line. Please have a look back over my earlier email. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
FYI QUAD Buffer stereo is only supported on the NVIDIA's Pro range the Quadro FX cards, they do not support this on consumer cards Gordon Product Manager 3d __ Gordon Tomlinson Email : gtomlinson @ overwatch.textron.com __ -Original Message- From: osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org [mailto:osg-users-boun...@lists.openscenegraph.org] On Behalf Of Robert Osfield Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 6:27 AM To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com; OpenSceneGraph Users Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem Hi Olfat, The errors you are getting are due to lack of QUAD_BUFFER stereo support in the driver. This is pretty poor considering that you've got the NVidia 3D glasses. Perhaps the NVidia drivers only provide a hack for 3d support in 3rd party apps, as they do for games. I would be worth contacting NVidia about it as frankly selling hardware but not supporting quad buffer stereo in the drivers is just plain incompetent/fraudulent. Robert. On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:52 AM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > > Also i wanted to clarify that when i tried to use the command line : > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > it gives me the following : > > Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file "QUAD_BUFFER". > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching > pixel for mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > > --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: > > From: Robert Osfield > Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem > To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" > > Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 4:54 AM > > Hi Ibrahim? Olfat? Could you sign with your first name so we know how > to address you, thanks, > > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:45 AM, olfat ibrahim > > wrote: >> Hello >> >> Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems >> to > work >> fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working >> with it can any one help me ? > > By default the OSG will use anaglyphic stereo when you enable stereo, > but it also supports a range of other stereo options. For shutter > glasses you'll probably just need to request quad buffer stereo via: > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > For more command line details run > > osgviewer --help > > And via env vars: > > osgviewer --help-env > > Programatically you can enable stereo via osg::DisplaySettings (the > above command line options and env vars just set it.) See the > osgstreoimage example for an example of programmatically enabling > stereo. > > There is a big but... and that's does you graphics card/OpenGL driver > support quad buffer stereo. I can't answer this as you've provide no > info w.r.t hardware/drivers you are using. For NVidia it's just their > Quadro line that supports quad buffer stereo. > > Robert. > > > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph. > org > > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hello i got into Nvidia website and downloaded the last driver version for my glasses. the glassess still not filling my application but it is now give only the following error. Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file "QUAD_BUFFER". u saing that it is not working with openGL so any one have any recommendations for me. thanks --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: From: Robert Osfield Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 6:27 AM Hi Olfat, The errors you are getting are due to lack of QUAD_BUFFER stereo support in the driver. This is pretty poor considering that you've got the NVidia 3D glasses. Perhaps the NVidia drivers only provide a hack for 3d support in 3rd party apps, as they do for games. I would be worth contacting NVidia about it as frankly selling hardware but not supporting quad buffer stereo in the drivers is just plain incompetent/fraudulent. Robert. On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:52 AM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > > Also i wanted to clarify that when i tried to use the command line : > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > it gives me the following : > > Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file "QUAD_BUFFER". > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > > --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: > > From: Robert Osfield > Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem > To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" > > Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 4:54 AM > > Hi Ibrahim? Olfat? Could you sign with your first name so we know how > to address you, thanks, > > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:45 AM, olfat ibrahim > wrote: >> Hello >> >> Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems to > work >> fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working with >> it can any one help me ? > > By default the OSG will use anaglyphic stereo when you enable stereo, > but it also supports a range of other stereo options. For shutter > glasses you'll probably just need to request quad buffer stereo via: > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > For more command line details run > > osgviewer --help > > And via env vars: > > osgviewer --help-env > > Programatically you can enable stereo via osg::DisplaySettings (the > above command line options and env vars just set it.) See the > osgstreoimage example for an example of programmatically enabling > stereo. > > There is a big but... and that's does you graphics card/OpenGL driver > support quad buffer stereo. I can't answer this as you've provide no > info w.r.t hardware/drivers you are using. For NVidia it's just their > Quadro line that supports quad buffer stereo. > > Robert. > > > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org > > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Olfat, As far as I understand the NVidia 3D Vision system, it does not require a stereo capable application. Stereo images are produced by the driver itself. Your problem is due to the fact that, by now, the NVidia 3D Vision system works only with MS DirectX, not openGL. jcl olfat ibrahim wrote: iam Sorry iam Olfat : i had an account on OSG but i cannot remember it. any way my graphic card is Nvidia 96-- GT and my glasses Nvidia 3d Vision. -- Jean-Christophe Lombardo Espace Immersif DREAM / INRIA 2004 route des Lucioles - BP93 - 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex - France http://www.inria.fr/sophia ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Olfat, The errors you are getting are due to lack of QUAD_BUFFER stereo support in the driver. This is pretty poor considering that you've got the NVidia 3D glasses. Perhaps the NVidia drivers only provide a hack for 3d support in 3rd party apps, as they do for games. I would be worth contacting NVidia about it as frankly selling hardware but not supporting quad buffer stereo in the drivers is just plain incompetent/fraudulent. Robert. On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:52 AM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > > Also i wanted to clarify that when i tried to use the command line : > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > it gives me the following : > > Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file "QUAD_BUFFER". > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel > for > mat found based on traits specified > GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. > Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows > > --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: > > From: Robert Osfield > Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem > To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" > > Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 4:54 AM > > Hi Ibrahim? Olfat? Could you sign with your first name so we know how > to address you, thanks, > > On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:45 AM, olfat ibrahim > wrote: >> Hello >> >> Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems to > work >> fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working with >> it can any one help me ? > > By default the OSG will use anaglyphic stereo when you enable stereo, > but it also supports a range of other stereo options. For shutter > glasses you'll probably just need to request quad buffer stereo via: > > osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER > > For more command line details run > > osgviewer --help > > And via env vars: > > osgviewer --help-env > > Programatically you can enable stereo via osg::DisplaySettings (the > above command line options and env vars just set it.) See the > osgstreoimage example for an example of programmatically enabling > stereo. > > There is a big but... and that's does you graphics card/OpenGL driver > support quad buffer stereo. I can't answer this as you've provide no > info w.r.t hardware/drivers you are using. For NVidia it's just their > Quadro line that supports quad buffer stereo. > > Robert. > > > ___ > osg-users mailing list > osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org > http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org > > ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Also i wanted to clarify that when i tried to use the command line : osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER it gives me the following : Warning: Could not find plugin to read objects from file "QUAD_BUFFER". Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel for mat found based on traits specified GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel for mat found based on traits specified GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel for mat found based on traits specified GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows Error: [Screen #0] GraphicsWindowWin32::setPixelFormat() - No matching pixel for mat found based on traits specified GraphicsWindow has not been created successfully. Viewer::realize() - failed to set up any windows --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: From: Robert Osfield Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 4:54 AM Hi Ibrahim? Olfat? Could you sign with your first name so we know how to address you, thanks, On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:45 AM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > Hello > > Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems to work > fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working with > it can any one help me ? By default the OSG will use anaglyphic stereo when you enable stereo, but it also supports a range of other stereo options. For shutter glasses you'll probably just need to request quad buffer stereo via: osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER For more command line details run osgviewer --help And via env vars: osgviewer --help-env Programatically you can enable stereo via osg::DisplaySettings (the above command line options and env vars just set it.) See the osgstreoimage example for an example of programmatically enabling stereo. There is a big but... and that's does you graphics card/OpenGL driver support quad buffer stereo. I can't answer this as you've provide no info w.r.t hardware/drivers you are using. For NVidia it's just their Quadro line that supports quad buffer stereo. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
iam Sorry iam Olfat : i had an account on OSG but i cannot remember it. any way my graphic card is Nvidia 96-- GT and my glasses Nvidia 3d Vision. --- On Tue, 5/12/09, Robert Osfield wrote: From: Robert Osfield Subject: Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem To: olfat_ibra...@yahoo.com, "OpenSceneGraph Users" Date: Tuesday, May 12, 2009, 4:54 AM Hi Ibrahim? Olfat? Could you sign with your first name so we know how to address you, thanks, On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:45 AM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > Hello > > Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems to work > fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working with > it can any one help me ? By default the OSG will use anaglyphic stereo when you enable stereo, but it also supports a range of other stereo options. For shutter glasses you'll probably just need to request quad buffer stereo via: osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER For more command line details run osgviewer --help And via env vars: osgviewer --help-env Programatically you can enable stereo via osg::DisplaySettings (the above command line options and env vars just set it.) See the osgstreoimage example for an example of programmatically enabling stereo. There is a big but... and that's does you graphics card/OpenGL driver support quad buffer stereo. I can't answer this as you've provide no info w.r.t hardware/drivers you are using. For NVidia it's just their Quadro line that supports quad buffer stereo. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
Re: [osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hi Ibrahim? Olfat? Could you sign with your first name so we know how to address you, thanks, On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 9:45 AM, olfat ibrahim wrote: > Hello > > Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems to work > fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working with > it can any one help me ? By default the OSG will use anaglyphic stereo when you enable stereo, but it also supports a range of other stereo options. For shutter glasses you'll probably just need to request quad buffer stereo via: osgviewer cow.osg --stereo QUAD_BUFFER For more command line details run osgviewer --help And via env vars: osgviewer --help-env Programatically you can enable stereo via osg::DisplaySettings (the above command line options and env vars just set it.) See the osgstreoimage example for an example of programmatically enabling stereo. There is a big but... and that's does you graphics card/OpenGL driver support quad buffer stereo. I can't answer this as you've provide no info w.r.t hardware/drivers you are using. For NVidia it's just their Quadro line that supports quad buffer stereo. Robert. ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
[osg-users] Stereo Problem
Hello Iam running my program with the option --stereo and the stereo seems to work fine in the screen but i can not get my nvidia glass to start working with it can any one help me ? ___ osg-users mailing list osg-users@lists.openscenegraph.org http://lists.openscenegraph.org/listinfo.cgi/osg-users-openscenegraph.org
