RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[B & G]

Hi Pinky,
It is my cultural roots that has helped me get back in there. 
Besides I vowed that I would continue to fight for justice that no other
nurse or midwife will ever be caught in a situation like I was. The
greatest fight was with Work Cover, the Courts and the attempt to get
back to work. I had 10 months off work of which three months was spent
in hospital. I settled out of court for negligence having made my
statement within Queensland Health. 
I still have two pillows in my car that I look at now and then. They
were bright green (new hope) purple square in the middle (depression and
the sense of imprisonment) on one side bright orange the other to
represent the zest of life and energy. One was named Caroline and the
other Mark representing the DON and Medical super who were my chief
antagonists in conciliation meetings with the legal people. When work
would get tough I would belt the s... out of them and feel better. I
brought a new car with some of the monies and it had to be gold- gold
for a winner! So you see I created great symbols in my recovery.
However one can never control the physiological responses- teeth
grinding, flashbacks, nightmares. I merely recognise the triggers and
attempt to reduce the physiological responses. One day I will slow down.
Cheers Barb



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of pinky mckay
Sent: Friday, 10 February 2006 9:41 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


Barb ,
I am in awe that you have been able to do so much great work after this 
trauma and the effects that it must have had on you,

Hugs
Pinky

- Original Message - 
From: "B & G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


> There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the triggers 
> but even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from you.

> Some people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had 
> this constant mind battle to control triggers.
> Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and prolonged 
> torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Bourne
> Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
>
>
> Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right 
> to me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR 
> traumatised by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking

> in the place or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last

> stages of healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly 
> not in the very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely 
> traumatic birth experience but have had other traumas in my life and 
> have had a lot of talking to do about them, I can't think of one 
> occasion I wanted to go back to the person/place that was the source 
> of the trauma.
>
> At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
>>I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more

>>logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a 
>>study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired

>>effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle 
>>operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty much the only

>>"cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. The 
>>one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J
>>
>>- Original Message -----
>>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
>>To: 
>><mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>>Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
>>Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
>>
>>I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing 
>>women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it,
> the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly 
> helpful outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the 
> How.  Does anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
>>
>>
>>Andrea wrote:
>>Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with 
>>the
>
>>midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have 
>>been
> part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but

> the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at 
> what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How 
> does this fit with the M&am

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[pinky mckay]

Barb ,
I am in awe that you have been able to do so much great work after this 
trauma and the effects that it must have had on you,


Hugs
Pinky

- Original Message - 
From: "B & G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support



There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the triggers but
even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from you. Some
people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had this
constant mind battle to control triggers.
Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and prolonged
torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Bourne
Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right to
me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR traumatised
by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in the place
or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last stages of
healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly not in the
very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely traumatic birth
experience but have had other traumas in my life and have had a lot of
talking to do about them, I can't think of one occasion I wanted to go
back to the person/place that was the source of the trauma.

At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:

I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more
logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a
study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired
effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle
operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty much the only
"cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. The
one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J

- Original Message -
From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
To:
<mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing
women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it,

the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful
outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does
anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy



Andrea wrote:
Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the



midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been

part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but
the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at
what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How
does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's
on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one
who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?





--
Jo Bourne
Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[B & G]

Thanks Judy,
Its OK. I have moved on although the body keeps the score. I have a
great family. There is also a PTSD newsgroup that is also very safe for
PTSD sufferers.
Post Forster and Davies review (Qld) I am smiling more these days
although it isn't easy. One day I hope all midwives can work in an
environment that is safe and fulfilling that meets our women's needs. We
must maintain the fire to make it safer for these women, that is what a
midwife must do.
Barb

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Chapman
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2006 6:24 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


Barb, 
So sorry to hear you have had such a shocking time. I can offer no tips,
not having been there myself but I pray that there will come a time that
you can settle into more normal pre-trauma type of life. 
Cheers
Judy

--- B & G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the triggers 
> but even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from
> you. Some
> people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had
> this
> constant mind battle to control triggers.
> Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and
> prolonged
> torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Bourne
> Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> 
> 
> Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right 
> to me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR
> traumatised
> by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in
> the place
> or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last
> stages of
> healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly
> not in the
> very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely
> traumatic birth
> experience but have had other traumas in my life and have had
> a lot of
> talking to do about them, I can't think of one occasion I
> wanted to go
> back to the person/place that was the source of the trauma.
> 
> At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
> >I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me
> as no more
> >logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP
> because a
> >study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have
> the desired
> >effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the
> lifestyle
> >operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty much
> the only
> >"cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and
> over. The
> >one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
> >To:
>
><mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
> >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> >
> >I believe there is some research out there that looked at
> de-briefing
> >women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I
> remember it,
> the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly 
> helpful outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the
> How.  Does
> anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> > 
> >
> >Andrea wrote:
> >Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up
> appointment with the
> 
> >midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may
> have been
> part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but
> the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment
> with, at
> what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3
> months? How
> does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the
> woman's
> on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or
> the one
> who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?
> > 
> 
> 
> --
> Jo Bourne
> Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or
> unsubscribe.
> 
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
> 




 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Judy Chapman]

Barb, 
So sorry to hear you have had such a shocking time. I can offer
no tips, not having been there myself but I pray that there will
come a time that you can settle into more normal pre-trauma type
of life. 
Cheers
Judy

--- B & G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the
> triggers but
> even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from
> you. Some
> people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had
> this
> constant mind battle to control triggers.
> Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and
> prolonged
> torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo
> Bourne
> Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> 
> 
> Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly
> sounds right to
> me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR
> traumatised
> by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in
> the place
> or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last
> stages of
> healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly
> not in the
> very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely
> traumatic birth
> experience but have had other traumas in my life and have had
> a lot of
> talking to do about them, I can't think of one occasion I
> wanted to go
> back to the person/place that was the source of the trauma.
> 
> At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
> >I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me
> as no more 
> >logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP
> because a 
> >study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have
> the desired 
> >effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the
> lifestyle 
> >operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty much
> the only 
> >"cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and
> over. The 
> >one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
> >To: 
>
><mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
> >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> >
> >I believe there is some research out there that looked at
> de-briefing 
> >women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I
> remember it,
> the research did not show that this debriefing had
> particularly helpful
> outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the
> How.  Does
> anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> > 
> >
> >Andrea wrote:
> >Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up
> appointment with the
> 
> >midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may
> have been
> part of the problem, should all women have a follow up
> appointment but
> the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment
> with, at
> what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3
> months? How
> does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the
> woman's
> on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or
> the one
> who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jo Bourne
> Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or
> unsubscribe.
> 
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or
> unsubscribe.
> 




 
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The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full 
Actor Database. 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Kate Reynolds]

In WA now the med students (student
doctors) in their training attend a SPEC (student pelvic examination clinic) supervised
by midwives but the teaching is done by volunteer women (teaching associates)
who not only teach the students as they perform  the taking of a history, breast,
abdo, pelvic exam and pap smear for the women, they also very gently instruct them
on the subtleties of obtaining patient consent and on the appropriate language
to use during such examinations (they provide further feedback to the students
after the exam). It is very interesting to oversee as the students 
(albeit it nervously) often say things such as “Ok, could you just spread
your legs now”  or “I’m just going to have a feel around
in here now” to which the women will say to them “Did you just hear
what you asked me to do?’ and the students will always rephrase it until
the women is happy – usually to something like “Are you comfortable
to let your knees fall apart now?” or  “ Is it OK for me to
check you ovaries now?”. Already nurses and midwives are seeing a big
turnaround in the bedside manners of our sensitive new age doctors (and are
very grateful to UWA for using more and more midwives and nurses in the design
of their teaching programs).

Cheers, Kate

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[B & G]

Thanks Janet, I have looked into EFT but its about trusting it enough to
lower your mental resistance. I have found if I lower my mental
resistance such as having a lovely massage or by doing heavy physical
work such as climbing Nourlangie Rock in the NT then I cannot have
control over triggers. The re-runs or flash backs start again, the jaw
grinding, hypervigilence and then the forgetfulness etc. It is a very
hard one to balance.
Barb

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2006 11:19 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


Dear Barb, what a truly shocking experience. I am so sorry. I completely
agree with you though. Some women in Accessing Artemis have had great
results with EFT - emotional freedom technique - which I haven't tried
yet. I also found Boronia flower essence had an amazing and instant
effect on the reruns in my head. Stopped them immediately I took the
drops! Best wishes to you, J
- Original Message - 
From: "B & G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


> There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the triggers 
> but even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from you.

> Some people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had 
> this constant mind battle to control triggers.
> Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and prolonged 
> torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Bourne
> Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
>
>
> Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right 
> to me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR 
> traumatised by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking

> in the place or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last

> stages of healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly 
> not in the very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely 
> traumatic birth experience but have had other traumas in my life and 
> have had a lot of talking to do about them, I can't think of one 
> occasion I wanted to go back to the person/place that was the source 
> of the trauma.
>
> At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
> >I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no 
> >more logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP 
> >because a study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have 
> >the desired effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the 
> >lifestyle operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty 
> >much the only "cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over 
> >and over. The one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J
> >
> >- Original Message -----
> >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
> >To: 
> ><mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
> >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> >
> >I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing

> >women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it,
> the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly 
> helpful outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the 
> How.  Does anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> >
> >
> >Andrea wrote:
> >Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with 
> >the
>
> >midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have 
> >been
> part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but

> the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at 
> what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How 
> does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's

> on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one 
> who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?
> >
>
>
> --
> Jo Bourne
> Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

--
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Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Janet Fraser]

Dear Barb, what a truly shocking experience. I am so sorry. I completely
agree with you though. Some women in Accessing Artemis have had great
results with EFT - emotional freedom technique - which I haven't tried yet.
I also found Boronia flower essence had an amazing and instant effect on the
reruns in my head. Stopped them immediately I took the drops!
Best wishes to you,
J
- Original Message - 
From: "B & G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


> There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the triggers but
> even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from you. Some
> people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had this
> constant mind battle to control triggers.
> Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and prolonged
> torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Bourne
> Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
>
>
> Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right to
> me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR traumatised
> by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in the place
> or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last stages of
> healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly not in the
> very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely traumatic birth
> experience but have had other traumas in my life and have had a lot of
> talking to do about them, I can't think of one occasion I wanted to go
> back to the person/place that was the source of the trauma.
>
> At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
> >I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more
> >logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a
> >study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired
> >effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle
> >operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty much the only
> >"cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. The
> >one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J
> >
> >- Original Message -----
> >From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
> >To:
> ><mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
> >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> >
> >I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing
> >women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it,
> the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful
> outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does
> anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> >
> >
> >Andrea wrote:
> >Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the
>
> >midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been
> part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but
> the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at
> what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How
> does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's
> on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one
> who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?
> >
>
>
> -- 
> Jo Bourne
> Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
>
--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[B & G]

There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the triggers but
even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from you. Some
people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had this
constant mind battle to control triggers.
Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and prolonged
torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo Bourne
Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right to
me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR traumatised
by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in the place
or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last stages of
healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly not in the
very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely traumatic birth
experience but have had other traumas in my life and have had a lot of
talking to do about them, I can't think of one occasion I wanted to go
back to the person/place that was the source of the trauma.

At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
>I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more 
>logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a 
>study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired 
>effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle 
>operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty much the only 
>"cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. The 
>one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
>To: 
><mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
>Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
>
>I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing 
>women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it,
the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful
outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does
anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> 
>
>Andrea wrote:
>Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the

>midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been
part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but
the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at
what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How
does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's
on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one
who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?
> 


-- 
Jo Bourne
Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Susan Cudlipp]

Title: Message



This is a fascinating thread
I have a friend whose first birth was in a private 
hosp with epidural and forceps = no reason medically for the forceps and the 
epidural was not working well at that point. No one allowed her to push, 
she was made to wait for the doctor who then pulled the baby out.  She was 
young and believed that it was all normal, her ob came the next day and 
patted her on the knee and said "lucky you - no stitches, you must be very happy 
with that"  She agreed at the time and went home believing she had had a 
good birth because she did not have stitches.
Next pregnancy she experienced total panic and went 
to a different (and more empathetic ob, fortunately) and demanded an elective 
C/S.  He had the insight to discuss the first birth in detail and assure 
her that things would be different this time - and they were. She had a very 
healing birth experience.
My point is that the trauma she suffered was very 
real, but she was unable to identify this at the time of birth and agreed with 
all that the first birth had been fine. Ten years later she discusses this 
with me, a newly made friend, and the pain is still evident.
I do believe that many OB's do not have the 
slightest idea how much they sometimes traumatise women, whether this is due to 
women NOT complaining at the time (at least not directly to the traumatiser) and 
very few who actually complain later either, or to their (often) blase and 
overbearing attitude - believing that the delivery of a live child is the only 
important outcome.
I recently had a situation where I personally 
was traumatised by the brutality I  witnessed, but the OB stated to me 
later that the woman was very happy with her care!  This made me wonder 
about the discussion he had had with her and the slant he must have put on 
things, because I cannot imagine any woman being truly happy to have been 
subject to the assault that I witnessed.
My CNM at the time told me that I could not state 
that the couple had been traumatised, because it was MY perception and theirs 
may have been different - true enough I guess but.:-(
 
One only has to listen to women of all ages and 
backgrounds - we all love talking about our births, good or bad,  the joy 
or the pain stays with us forever.
 
On a more positive note - this week I was 2nd 
midwife at a delightful birth with a lovely couple.  There was a persistent 
and prolonged 'anterior lip' and she seemed to take a very long time to get past 
that point.  As I was just standing quietly awaiting I remembered something 
someone posted a while back and thought I would try it so I said to her "What is 
your biggest fear right now?"  She didn't answer for a couple of 
contractions then suddenly burst out " My biggest fear is that I won't be able 
to birth the baby"  What do you know - lip went and baby started to 
appear!
So thanks to whoever it was who posted that one - 
it's good to tap into all this wonderful midwifery wisdom.
 
Sue
 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
nothing"Edmund Burke

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Dean 
  & Jo 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 5:00 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  Interestingly last year our South Australian Gov held 
  an inquiry into post natal depression and direct links to birth- cs 
  specifically.  I sat there and listened to a private OB who said "none of 
  my patients are unhappy with their cs".
   
  how 
  would he know?  when does he ask?  who does he think he 
  is?
   
  yes 
  Andrea, the problem is a difficult one to address but I think there are 
  definatley ways to start.  Inclusion of PTSD during antenatal classes and 
  a handout describing the difference between PND and PTSD; a list of possible 
  contacts of support from outside the hospital and perhaps maybe one within. 
  Find out if someone can be appointed a specific consumer relations counselor 
  with expertise in PTSD and birth at the unit who acts as the consumers 
  advocate or point of call, actively encourage any birthing woman (but 
  especially those who have had difficult or emergency births) to contact this 
  person to at least register their concerns regardless to when it 
  happened.  This person could also be used to document the cases and make 
  links to particular behaviours or procedures that cause harm and even 
  individuals who are repeat offenders in offending - then they could be 
  encouraged or even enforced to get educated or get out.
   
  Units need to actively support the consumer groups in 
  their area.  Advertise the details of consumer groups and LISTEN to the 
  group's findings and feedback- good, bad and ugly.  
  
   
  Educate women about the realities of birth in our 
  current system. This is a hard one as it would be eas

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Honey Acharya]

Title: Message



As a doula what do I offer my clients in terms of 
support pre and post c-section?
Well I wrote this before all the discussion 
happened today.
 
With all my clients we discuss the possibility of a 
c-section birth and as part of their "birth plan" have a c-section plan. I 
do this now because so many women seem to ignore the possibility of 
c-section and say "that won't happen to me" even though they are birthing in 
places with rates of 1 in 3, or 1 in 2. Once we have done that (unless they are 
planning a c-section of course) we then put that aside and focus on the birth 
she wants. I also teach them simple tools that they can use to help them feel in 
control even when things don't go as planned so if they choose to they can 
remain the ones making the final decision about what happens to them and their 
baby.
 
Post birth I am available to debrief whenever 
they want to and refer them in need to good independent preg and 
postnatal counselling. Often the debriefing happens casually over time in those 
first weeks but we also make a special time to sit down and have a thorough 
debrief when the parents are ready.
 
I am a co-facilitator for a course/support group 
called Healing Birth for women who have had traumatic birth experiences (many 
but not all are women who have had c-sections) and already we see trends 
with the things done and said by the same careproviders over and over 
again.  Sometimes I think If only the ob's and midwives involved in these 
women's experiences could hear and see these women tell what happened from their 
point of view perhaps something might get through and change their practice 
- many of the women write letters to help them heal but very few are 
actually posted.
 
I think it is true that almost all women need to 
debrief their birth no matter how it went and I have seen the positive 
changes in women after they have had the chance to debrief in a supportive place 
over a number of weeks. Some even look physically different after the 
debriefing. Not to mention the more positive empowered experiences they go on to 
have with any future babies.
The other thing with debriefing is have you noticed 
that those who don't debrief their births are still telling people the horror 
stories (up to 60 years later in the case of a family member of mine.) Often 
pregnant women are bailed up in checkout queues or odd places by a 
stranger telling them titbits of their birth story that perhaps would 
really have benefited from a reflective debrief.
 
Honey Acharya CD (CBI)
Studying BMid through UniSa
 
Birth Buddies - Doula
Townsville
 
 
 
 
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Janet 
  Fraser 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:30 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  Jo, you're speaking from my 
  heart as well. I was at a meeting last year of women working to support others 
  in birth trauma. All of us had been suicidal at one point, myself included, 
  none of us had had any support from careproviders.
  I'm always happy to share my 
  journey but it rarely scores a comment on ozmid. What this means I cannot 
  judge but it makes me fear for other women in my position if we can't talk 
  about it with careproviders. It's not about blame, it's about responsibility 
  for our actions as consumers and a hope that our careproviders will also take 
  responsibility for their actions. We really need everyone to be be truly "with 
  woman" on this one, not with protocol and not with status quo.
  J
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Dean 
& Jo 
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
    
    Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:43 
PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
support

I 
think it is ESSENTIAL for midwives and consumer groups to be working 
together on this one.  Amazingly enough, many complaints we hear about 
are from women who feel their midwife let them down.  Interesting issue 
(as I am a doula also, perception and expectation of support is of great 
interest).  
 
Most would agree with the fragmented care currently offered there is 
a huge reliance on trusting someone who has just walked in the door.  
anyone caring for a woman tries to do their best; but their best may not 
correspond with the woman's needs, even the 'nicest' midwife can upset 
someone unintentionally.  where does the accountability lie?  bit 
tricky there...probably too hard to define: but it doesn't remove the fact 
that some woman is feeling like shit.
 
I 
think it is important for midwives and doctors (if they would ever listen) 
to listen to the trauma experienced by women.  From experience I can 
say that MY perception of a particular birth was it was positive: but to the 
woman is was

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Janet Fraser]

I'm sorry to hear of your personal experience, Judy, it's so common and so
ignored. I'm sure that the work you've done has been both informed, and
blessed by this sadness in your own life. Sometimes great things come from
tragedy!
Love to you,
J

- Original Message - 
From: "Judy Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:17 PM
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


> I am sure that debriefing helps even if it does not cure. I
> remember one particular woman at my previous place of work who
> rang me many times and needed to talk about her EM CS (possible
> not necessary) and I felt sad for her when I left there as we
> had not finished debriefing. I think it helped a bit but she was
> still a bit of a mess.
> For my self, I would loved to have had a sympathetic ear, it
> took me nearly 25 years to come to terms with the 2 CS that I
> had. Fortunately I have been able to channel into midwifery,
> trying hard not to let women get the raw deal that I had.
> Cheers
> Judy
>
>
> --- Nicole Carver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > HI Mary,
> > I remember reading about that research and being surprised. I
> > have discussed
> > it with the psych nurse employed where I work, who spends time
> > nearly every
> > day with women who have experienced traumatic births (or
> > perceived them to
> > be even when we might not have called them such). She feels it
> > does help.
> > Even one visit can help women who want to understand what
> > happened to them
> > and why. Some require much more, and thankfully our maternity
> > support
> > workers are great with these women. However, it is a tragedy
> > that we need to
> > have these workers. They do also work with antenatal and
> > postnatal
> > depression.
> > I can't remember the specifics, but I don't recall being
> > particularly
> > impressed with the methodology of the study that you mention.
> > And if women
> > want to talk about their experience they should be able to,
> > whether it is
> > formal debriefing or whatever. I suppose you don't want to
> > treat all women
> > the same, ie what is appropriate debriefing for one woman,
> > would not
> > necessarily work for another. If you did try to treat them the
> > same it would
> > not be surprising if it did not work.
> > Nicole Carver.
> >   -Original Message-
> >   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mary
> > Murphy
> >   Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:59 AM
> >   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >   Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> >
> >
> >   I believe there is some research out there that looked at
> > de-briefing
> > women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I
> > remember it, the
> > research did not show that this debriefing had particularly
> > helpful
> > outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the
> > How.  Does
> > anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
--
> > --
> >
> >   Andrea wrote:
> >
> >   Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up
> > appointment with the
> > midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may
> > have been part
> > of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment
> > but the woman
> > be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at
> > what stage would
> > this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this
> > fit with the
> > M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care?
> > How does her
> > doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or
> > not) her birth
> > be involved in this?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> 
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Never miss an Instant Message - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS
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> --
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>
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Dean & Jo]

Title: Message



that 
study was really missing the point> it used a midwife to debrief instead of 
the people who were involved with the actual event.  It left the chance for 
further confusion and distress wide open.  I would have been happier if the 
person who made the decision to perform the incision to at least have the 
courtesy to come and talk to me and invite me to ask questions.  Instead I 
had to rely on someone who wasn't even there to explain what was written on my 
file..rather than what happened in the labour room.  The study found 
debriefing did nothing to help: perhaps because the rationales were not 
acceptable and hence the grief/anger was impacted further?  Perhaps because 
birthing women are not stupid and know that unless you were there you really 
have no way of really knowing...?

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary 
  MurphySent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 7:45 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
   
  I also was surprised 
  at the outcomes of the study. One of the great benefits of being a community 
  midwife is the opportunity for women to debrief over a period of time.  
  Usually from day 2-28, a little at a time.  Even with a “normal” 
  seemingly non-traumatic birth, women need to talk it through.MM 
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Nicole CarverSent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 3:42 
  PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
   
  
  HI 
  Mary,
  
  I remember reading 
  about that research and being surprised. I have discussed it with the psych 
  nurse employed where I work, who spends time nearly every day with women who 
  have experienced traumatic births (or perceived them to be even when we might 
  not have called them such). She feels it does help. Even one visit can help 
  women who want to understand what happened to them and why. Some require much 
  more, and thankfully our maternity support workers are great with these women. 
  However, it is a tragedy that we need to have these workers. They do also work 
  with antenatal and postnatal depression.
  
  I can't remember the 
  specifics, but I don't recall being particularly impressed with the 
  methodology of the study that you mention. And if women want to talk about 
  their experience they should be able to, whether it is formal debriefing or 
  whatever. I suppose you don't want to treat all women the same, ie what is 
  appropriate debriefing for one woman, would not necessarily work for another. 
  If you did try to treat them the same it would not be surprising if it did not 
  work.
  
  Nicole 
  Carver.
  
-Original 
Message-

 
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  AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release 
  Date: 2/2/2006


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[ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Dean & Jo]

Title: Message



Interestingly last year our South Australian Gov held 
an inquiry into post natal depression and direct links to birth- cs 
specifically.  I sat there and listened to a private OB who said "none of 
my patients are unhappy with their cs".
 
how 
would he know?  when does he ask?  who does he think he 
is?
 
yes 
Andrea, the problem is a difficult one to address but I think there are 
definatley ways to start.  Inclusion of PTSD during antenatal classes and a 
handout describing the difference between PND and PTSD; a list of possible 
contacts of support from outside the hospital and perhaps maybe one within. Find 
out if someone can be appointed a specific consumer relations counselor with 
expertise in PTSD and birth at the unit who acts as the consumers advocate or 
point of call, actively encourage any birthing woman (but especially those who 
have had difficult or emergency births) to contact this person to at least 
register their concerns regardless to when it happened.  This person could 
also be used to document the cases and make links to particular behaviours or 
procedures that cause harm and even individuals who are repeat offenders in 
offending - then they could be encouraged or even enforced to get educated or 
get out.
 
Units 
need to actively support the consumer groups in their area.  Advertise the 
details of consumer groups and LISTEN to the group's findings and 
feedback- good, bad and ugly.  
 
Educate women about the realities of birth in our 
current system. This is a hard one as it would be easy to tell them that this is 
the way it can be but it doesn't need to be or worse, tell them this is the way 
it can be so accept it.  educating women about birth as a positive thing is 
an ongoing challenge but attention to wording, and reiterating the rights of 
women to say NO or in the very least be ASKED not TOLD.  If a midwife 
witnesses an event that has clearly disempowered the woman, if that mw has not 
the strength to stand up for the woman, to at least pull her aside after and 
tell her that should not have happened and would she like to make a 
complaint.  I would hope that this scenario would be avoided however by not 
letting it happen.
 
Perhaps a list of standard things that happen during 
each visits (breast checks etc) is given to the woman and unless she ticks 
the 'yes' box the procedure can not go ahead. Information or rationale can 
be given for all procedures so the woman is informed as to the reasoning for 
it.   INFORMED CONSENT.  If she ticks 'no' and it happens then 
her rights have been abused and consequences must occur.
 
Agreed 
that going back to where the trauma was committed is not what most people 
do...as many have said before, no one goes back to their rapist and asks why 
they did it or gives them an opportunity to defend the attack.  

 
MOST 
WOMEN WHO SUFFER TRAUMA UNDERSTAND THAT THEY CAN NOT GO BACK IN TIME AND CHANGE 
THINGS- BUT IF THEY CAN DO SOMETHING TO PREVENT IT HAPPENING TO SOMEONE ELSE 
THEY WILL.   Most women who are hurt emotionally and physically do not 
want to sue: they want an APOLOGY an acknowledgement that they have been 
wronged.  Most have the strength to go back if they knew they were going to 
be taken seriously and not dismissed off handedly for not "getting your fantasy 
birth" like I was told by the Bendigo Hospital CEO a few years back (sorry but 
these days I name names.  It is the only right I have 
left.)
 
Do not 
fob off people like Janet and myself, we are the type of people who are angry, 
hurt and vocal yes-but we are the ones who units can learn from.  the only 
way to improve things it to ask the ones who are not happy.  The majority 
of unhappy people don't know what to say or who to say it to.  Use people 
like Janet and myself as very open in tracks into just how stuffed this sort of 
thing can leave women (sorry Janet, but you know what I mean!:o)).  We are 
the type of people who should be invited to come back and talk to the 
staff.  we are classified as extreme minority...only by those who chose to 
see us as that.  If you ask us, we will tell you that we are NOT a minority 
in any way shape or form.
 
Like 
Janet, I have a number of things that we can do to support women suffering 
this.  Nothing is impossible.  It all comes down to someone actually 
recognizing there is a problem and then be willing to do something about 
it.
 
once 
again, I mean no disrespect for anyone on this list.  I only ever want 
people to think from a  different view point for a few 
seconds.
 
with 
light and love
 
Jo
 
 

  


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Judy Chapman]

I am sure that debriefing helps even if it does not cure. I
remember one particular woman at my previous place of work who
rang me many times and needed to talk about her EM CS (possible
not necessary) and I felt sad for her when I left there as we
had not finished debriefing. I think it helped a bit but she was
still a bit of a mess. 
For my self, I would loved to have had a sympathetic ear, it
took me nearly 25 years to come to terms with the 2 CS that I
had. Fortunately I have been able to channel into midwifery,
trying hard not to let women get the raw deal that I had. 
Cheers
Judy


--- Nicole Carver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> HI Mary,
> I remember reading about that research and being surprised. I
> have discussed
> it with the psych nurse employed where I work, who spends time
> nearly every
> day with women who have experienced traumatic births (or
> perceived them to
> be even when we might not have called them such). She feels it
> does help.
> Even one visit can help women who want to understand what
> happened to them
> and why. Some require much more, and thankfully our maternity
> support
> workers are great with these women. However, it is a tragedy
> that we need to
> have these workers. They do also work with antenatal and
> postnatal
> depression.
> I can't remember the specifics, but I don't recall being
> particularly
> impressed with the methodology of the study that you mention.
> And if women
> want to talk about their experience they should be able to,
> whether it is
> formal debriefing or whatever. I suppose you don't want to
> treat all women
> the same, ie what is appropriate debriefing for one woman,
> would not
> necessarily work for another. If you did try to treat them the
> same it would
> not be surprising if it did not work.
> Nicole Carver.
>   -Original Message-
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mary
> Murphy
>   Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:59 AM
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>   Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> 
> 
>   I believe there is some research out there that looked at
> de-briefing
> women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I
> remember it, the
> research did not show that this debriefing had particularly
> helpful
> outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the
> How.  Does
> anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

> --
> 
>   Andrea wrote:
> 
>   Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up
> appointment with the
> midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may
> have been part
> of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment
> but the woman
> be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at
> what stage would
> this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this
> fit with the
> M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care?
> How does her
> doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or
> not) her birth
> be involved in this?
> 
> 
> 




 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Mary Murphy]

 

I also was surprised at the outcomes of
the study. One of the great benefits of being a community midwife is the
opportunity for women to debrief over a period of time.  Usually from day
2-28, a little at a time.  Even with a “normal” seemingly non-traumatic
birth, women need to talk it through.MM 









From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Nicole Carver
Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006
3:42 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs
support



 



HI Mary,





I remember reading about that research and
being surprised. I have discussed it with the psych nurse employed where I
work, who spends time nearly every day with women who have experienced
traumatic births (or perceived them to be even when we might not have called
them such). She feels it does help. Even one visit can help women who want to
understand what happened to them and why. Some require much more, and
thankfully our maternity support workers are great with these women. However, it
is a tragedy that we need to have these workers. They do also work with
antenatal and postnatal depression.





I can't remember the specifics, but I
don't recall being particularly impressed with the methodology of the study
that you mention. And if women want to talk about their experience they should
be able to, whether it is formal debriefing or whatever. I suppose you don't
want to treat all women the same, ie what is appropriate debriefing for one
woman, would not necessarily work for another. If you did try to treat them the
same it would not be surprising if it did not work.





Nicole Carver.





-Original Message-





 

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Nicole Carver]

HI 
Mary,
I 
remember reading about that research and being surprised. I have discussed it 
with the psych nurse employed where I work, who spends time nearly every day 
with women who have experienced traumatic births (or perceived them to be even 
when we might not have called them such). She feels it does help. Even one visit 
can help women who want to understand what happened to them and why. Some 
require much more, and thankfully our maternity support workers are great with 
these women. However, it is a tragedy that we need to have these workers. They 
do also work with antenatal and postnatal depression.
I 
can't remember the specifics, but I don't recall being particularly impressed 
with the methodology of the study that you mention. And if women want to talk 
about their experience they should be able to, whether it is formal debriefing 
or whatever. I suppose you don't want to treat all women the same, ie what is 
appropriate debriefing for one woman, would not necessarily work for another. If 
you did try to treat them the same it would not be surprising if it did not 
work.
Nicole 
Carver.

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Mary 
  MurphySent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:59 AMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  I believe there is 
  some research out there that looked at de-briefing women after birth, 
  particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it, the research did not 
  show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes.  Of course 
  it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone remember 
  it?  Mary 
  Murphy
   
  
  
  
  
  
  Andrea 
  wrote:
  
  Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up 
  appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they 
  may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up 
  appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment 
  with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How 
  does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on 
  going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who 
  attended (or not) her birth  be involved in 
  this? 
  
   

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Janet Fraser]

"Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the 
midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part of 
the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be 
allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this 
be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the M&CH 
nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor, 
be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth  be 
involved in this? "
 
Andrea these are definitely on 
track about post-trauma, but how about measures to prevent the 
trauma in the first place? PTSD is not inevitable as I've seen women 
experience very traumatic births either through staff mishandling or purely "no 
fault" as it were, stuff that just goes wrong but through the intervention of 
JUST ONE kind, loving staff member, the woman has suffered no lasting ill 
effects. It would also require so many changes of mindset on the part of those 
CPs too. People believe that birth is traumatic in itself and that drugs and 
interventions improve, not detract from, the experience. This is not the case 
for most women who had no need of those interventions in the first place. Real 
debriefing can only occur in a place with no vested interest in the outcome. 
Hospitals are keen to avoid what they see as potential lititgation and will 
refuse to listen to emotional pain as valid. I have a close friend who has 
written proof in her records of serious mistakes, outright lies, really shocking 
stuff that has left her gutted for years. She tried desparately to talk to the 
hospital but despite the lies being in black and white in her record the only 
response has been total denial, we were right, we know what we're doing, you're 
wrong. She had a barely qualified surgeon perform surgery she neither needed nor 
consented to, and he left a large chunk of placenta behind. Of course the 
massive infection was treated as malingering until she got a private u/s and had 
it confirmed. Hospital response? No, we didn't do that. It must be something 
else. She now has a lifelong battle with horrible scarring from the crap job 
that was done and the resulting infection, as well as chronic systemic candida 
from the months and months of antibs required. This was her second unnecessary 
surgery but most people around her, medical people included, view her as 
fortunate to have access to western medical care. Her ideal birth now is under a 
tree a long way from such care. She said no to the caesarean, she told every 
person she saw in the hospital that she didn't consent, she ran outside and 
smoked compulsively hoping this would stop her being given an epidural (which 
incidentally didn't work so she felt the whole surgery, something else the 
hospital deny happened. Hard to think she'd imagine that.). When she tried to 
talk about how traumatised she is, she was told that it was just leftover trauma 
from her first caesarean and nothing  to do with all these factors. She 
also had her baby taken to SCN and didn't meet him for 24 hours later by which 
time he'd been ff with thickened formula without her consent for perceived 
reflux. Major Melbourne hospital.
 
What we REALLY need is to 
prevent it in the first place. How can we do this? Well I offered to talk to 
students in the hospital where my birthrape occurred but have never been taken 
up on it. I'mnot really surprised even though my offer was entirely 
genuine. 
 
We need to impress upon those 
involved in care that "informed consent" does not mean massaging the truth, 
telling outright lies, manipulating women "You want the best for your baby don't 
you? Take this drug."
We need NO to mean no, so that 
when a woman says no she is respected. I'm not sure that all the people who see 
vaginas every day for a living necessarily respect the sanctity of women's 
bodies. I certainly received no respect for my body in my hospital experience. 

If a woman screams when you 
touch her, STOP TOUCHING HER. Leave the room if you've scared her, make sure 
someone else takes over from you. Apologise as soon as possible.
Just a few quick hints but I 
can provide a lot more.
 
We also only have funding and 
recognition of PND in this country. PND is a great diagnosis which puts all the 
blame on the defective woman and recognises no possibility that she may actually 
have PTSD. I've spoken to numerous PND support groups, and women who attend 
them, and most are rubbish. There is no discussion of birth although most of the 
women are traumatised by their experience or at the very least require intensive 
debriefing. Most of them involve exhortations to get more sleep, generally by 
weaning and ff, and do nice things for yourself. Wildly inappropriate and 
unhelpful. When I was suicidal from PTSD I saw my GP who insisted on booking me 
into a PND unit. I kept repeating over and over that I didn't have PND.

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Janet Fraser]

No, exactly, Jo. I mentioned yesterday (I think?) that I'm currently helping
a woman totally retraumatised by her hospital debriefing. It's called
Sanctuary Trauma, when a person is retraumatised, sometimes more seriously,
because they were mistreated when they sought help with a primary trauma. To
me it's like getting counselling from your rapist.
J
- Original Message - 
From: "Jo Bourne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support


Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right to me.
However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR traumatised by my
birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in the place or with
the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last stages of healing, as a
final letting go/closure thing, but certainly not in the very first days of
the shock. I did not have a remotely traumatic birth experience but have had
other traumas in my life and have had a lot of talking to do about them, I
can't think of one occasion I wanted to go back to the person/place that was
the source of the trauma.

At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
>I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more
logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a study
showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired effect.
(10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle operation that is
true OFP)
>Talking therapies are pretty much the only "cure" for PTSD and that's been
well demonstrated over and over. The one study showing otherwise holds no
weight.
>J
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
>To: <mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
>Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
>
>I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing women
after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it, the research
did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes.  Of
course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone remember it?
Mary Murphy
>
>
>Andrea wrote:
>Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the
midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part
of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman
be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would
this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the
M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her
doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth
be involved in this?
>


-- 
Jo Bourne
Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.
--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Jo Bourne]

Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly sounds right to me. 
However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR traumatised by my birth 
experience and then wanting to do that talking in the place or with the people 
where it happened. Perhaps in the last stages of healing, as a final letting 
go/closure thing, but certainly not in the very first days of the shock. I did 
not have a remotely traumatic birth experience but have had other traumas in my 
life and have had a lot of talking to do about them, I can't think of one 
occasion I wanted to go back to the person/place that was the source of the 
trauma.

At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
>I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more logical 
>and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a study showing a 
>crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired effect. (10mins a day 
>on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle operation that is true OFP)
>Talking therapies are pretty much the only "cure" for PTSD and that's been 
>well demonstrated over and over. The one study showing otherwise holds no 
>weight.
>J
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Mary Murphy
>To: <mailto:ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
>Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
>
>I believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing women 
>after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it, the research 
>did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes.  Of 
>course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone remember it?  
>Mary Murphy
> 
>
>Andrea wrote:
>Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the 
>midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part 
>of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be 
>allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this 
>be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the M&CH 
>nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor, 
>be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth  be involved 
>in this? 
> 


-- 
Jo Bourne
Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
--
This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
Visit <http://www.acegraphics.com.au> to subscribe or unsubscribe.

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Andrea Quanchi]

Yeh, Janet but how do we make talking therapies available to the women who need them and who do you see is the person who should be providing this 'therapy' and whenAndreaOn 04/02/2006, at 11:19 AM, Janet Fraser wrote:I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me as no more logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP because a study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have the desired effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the lifestyle operation that is true OFP)Talking therapies are pretty much the only "cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. The one study showing otherwise holds no weight.J- Original Message -From: Mary MurphyTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AMSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs supportI believe there is some research out there that looked at de-briefing women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it, the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy Andrea wrote:Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?  

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Janet Fraser]

I remember it but I disagree 
with it entirely. It struck me as no more logical and useful than the obstetric 
refusal to offer OFP because a study showing a crude, almost silly form of it 
didn't have the desired effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the 
lifestyle operation that is true OFP)
Talking therapies are pretty 
much the only "cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and over. 
The one study showing otherwise holds no weight.
J

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Mary 
  Murphy 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  
  I believe there is 
  some research out there that looked at de-briefing women after birth, 
  particularly traumatic births.  As I remember it, the research did not 
  show that this debriefing had particularly helpful outcomes.  Of course 
  it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone remember 
  it?  Mary 
  Murphy
   
  
  
  
  
  
  Andrea 
  wrote:
  
  Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up 
  appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they 
  may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up 
  appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment 
  with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How 
  does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on 
  going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who 
  attended (or not) her birth  be involved in 
  this? 
  
   

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Mary Murphy]

I believe there is some research out there
that looked at de-briefing women after birth, particularly traumatic births. 
As I remember it, the research did not show that this debriefing had particularly
helpful outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the How.  Does anyone
remember it?  Mary Murphy

 













Andrea
wrote:





Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the
midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part of
the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be
allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this
be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the M&CH
nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor,
be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth  be
involved in this? 





 

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Andrea Quanchi]

Janet & JoI can only speak about the places I have worked where the vast majority of midwives are mothers and choose to work part time. If you are with a woman in labour and or attend her LUSCS you may not even get to see her again during her stay. She will see a different midwife/s each shift and only stay in hospital 2-3 days. In my experience( and it has been a few years) it is unusual for the feelings you are talking about to come anywhere near the point where the woman is willing to discuss them with a total stranger no matter how nice they appear on first meeting. The women are in a state of shock.  The reality is that as a hospital employed midwife you are unlikely to ever to see the woman again after she is discharged from your unit on day 3-4. If you have any suggestions for how we should handle this I for one am willing to listen. I personally try to speak to all such women and their partners and suggest that down the track they may experience some PTS and need to talk with their midwife again and suggest that they call but have never had a woman do this. Should we give them a handout? Perhaps someone who has been through the experience could design one because its not that we dont care but we are as much at a loss on how to deal with it as you suggest.I am in no way excusing  but try and consider the frustration of turning up to work every day and facing a situation that you know sucks and is letting down women daily. It is wearing and what makes midwives give it up. The passionate ones find their way to something better but the majority just give up and become the turn up, do what I have to and get my pay variety not because they didn't once have the passion but that they had to give up or quit for their own survival. The system doesn't encourage thought about what happens to the women and their families before they walk in the door let alone after they leave. Did you know that the NBV sees the following as warning signs that the nurse or midwife may be breaching professional boundaries and may need to seek professional guidance• frequent thinking of the patient while away from work • seeing the patient for an out of hours appointment at a venue when no other staff are present • self-disclosure of information of a personal nature to a patient  • undue concern about meeting expectations of the patient or family • feelings of personal responsibility for patient progress • awareness of greater irritation if system delays patient progress how ridiculous is this because I for one cant switch off the minute I leave the place and often worry about the havoc that has been created in women's lives and that I know the system offers no resources to help them recover from it. I think everyone is with you on this but we need concrete suggestions that can be incorporated into the system we have while we keep fighting to change it. Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up appointment with the midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may have been part of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment but the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this? I ( and probably lots of others on this list) am listeningAndrea QauanchiOn 03/02/2006, at 11:30 PM, Janet Fraser wrote:Jo, you're speaking from my heart as well. I was at a meeting last year of women working to support others in birth trauma. All of us had been suicidal at one point, myself included, none of us had had any support from careproviders.I'm always happy to share my journey but it rarely scores a comment on ozmid. What this means I cannot judge but it makes me fear for other women in my position if we can't talk about it with careproviders. It's not about blame, it's about responsibility for our actions as consumers and a hope that our careproviders will also take responsibility for their actions. We really need everyone to be be truly "with woman" on this one, not with protocol and not with status quo.J- Original Message -From: Dean & JoTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:43 PMSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs supportI think it is ESSENTIAL for midwives and consumer groups to be working together on this one.  Amazingly enough, many complaints we hear about are from women who feel their midwife let them down.  Interesting issue (as I am a doula also, perception and expectation of support is of great interest).  Most would agree with the fragmented care currently offered there is a huge reliance on trusting someone who has just walked in the door.  anyone caring for a woman tries to do their best; but their best may not correspond with the woman's needs, even the 'nicest' midwife can upset s

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Nicole Carver]

Title: Message



Hi 
Amy,
You 
have shared some amazing insights (some would say they should not be amazing) 
and I wonder if I could have your permission to share them with my colleagues 
and students? De-identified if you wish. Happy for you to reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] either 
way.
Kind 
regards,
Nicole 
Carver,
Midwife.

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  adamnamySent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 2:17 AMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  On 
  the subject of traumatized women…my two cents
   
  When 
  I was 22 and pregnant for the first time, I had an innate fear, more like 
  terror really of going to hospital for the birth.  I don’t know what 
  drove me to so actively avoid a hospital birth but I just knew that it would 
  be an experience that triggered feelings of being assaulted and 
  overpowered.  It was my during my booking visit when the male doctor 
  lifted my dress and casually remarked “I’m just going to feel your breasts 
  now” that I realized how disempowered all women are in this process-one which 
  belongs to them ironically enough!  I saw the midwife cringing in the 
  corner, feeling acutely aware of his insensitivities but speechless and 
  feeling powerless to act in my defense.  He (the doctor) just seemed to 
  have no idea that you actually need to get permission from a person before you 
  cross into their private spaces, and that something of a respectful rapport is 
  useful (he had spent the previous 10 minutes chastising me for my fear of 
  needles and sternly telling me 
  that I   “had no choice” about having blood tests for this and that 
  reason.  But back to the carefree hands bit…I sat bolt upright and said 
  “no your not”   I decided then and there that I didn’t not want any 
  interference because it was inherently disempowering and the doctors attitude 
  patronizing.  I knew I needed encouragement, nurturing, information and 
  most of all, for the experience to transform me I needed a healing birth 
  experience.  Any woman who has experienced sexual trauma (and let’s face 
  it…that’s a lot of us!) will always need gentle handling.  The tiny 
  snippet of hospital based care I saw was definitely not 
  that!
   
   Now 
  when I listen to “mainstream birthing” women talk about birth, I hear the 
  language of submission.  “My ob decided such and such” or “they told me I 
  had to…..” or “they made me birth on my back”.  It is always something 
  “being done” to her; she rarely describes herself as the active 
  participant.  It actually makes me feel sick to hear it.  By and 
  large women just aren’t making their own choices and most of the time I 
  suspect they are not supported by partners, doctors or even midwives when they 
  do.    When are we all going to realize that the choices made 
  on our behalf, about our bodies and our babies are sometimes made by someone 
  with conflicting interests, a different agenda and really bad, archaic 
  research to back it up?  My experience of hospitals (and I work in one as 
  a nurse, not midwife…yet) is that often we nurses still don’t have the 
  confidence to challenge the old medical dinosaur.  Women need good 
  information and solid back-up from their midwives (I know that I am preaching 
  to the converted here). And midwives need to do that boldly, shamelessly and 
  confidently, or we give women the idea that it is “naughty” to have a 
  different view, or to challenge the status quo.  Had the midwife I spoke 
  of earlier had the guts to say pull the doctor up on his insensitivity at the 
  time (do they hesitate to tell us when they think we have erred?) I may have 
  had more confidence in the system.  But as it turned out my choice was a 
  good one and the older I get the more convinced I become that the machine we 
  call “maternity care” is not “care” at all.   We might as well call 
  them “baby factory units” because the reality is; they are more like factories 
  than places where women are cared for 
  holistically.
   
  The 
  changes that we are seeking here have boundaries that stretch far beyond the 
  walls of any maternity unit. We women still face sexism in a multitude of ways 
  that we either try to ignore or pretend don’t exist.  However this has to 
  be one of the crucial battlefields for women in the recovery of their autonomy 
  and freedom.  It will take a long time…but I am prepared to see it 
  through.   And in the mean time I recommend independent midwives and 
  homebirth to any one inspired by my beautiful, healing homebirth.  Some 
  times I hesitate to tell my story because it must appear blissfully utopian in 
  contrast to some women’s experiences.  But maybe those traumatized women 
  want to hear that such a birth is possible, so I tell it as plainly and gently 
  as I can-always hopeful that they might have the confidence in themselves

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[adamnamy]

Title: Message








On the
subject of traumatized women…my two cents

 

When I
was 22 and pregnant for the first time, I had an innate fear, more like terror
really of going to hospital for the birth.  I don’t know what drove me
to so actively avoid a hospital birth but I just knew that it would be an
experience that triggered feelings of being assaulted and overpowered.  It
was my during my booking visit when the male doctor lifted my dress and casually
remarked “I’m just going to feel your breasts now” that I realized
how disempowered all women are in this process-one which belongs to them
ironically enough!  I saw the midwife cringing in the corner, feeling
acutely aware of his insensitivities but speechless and feeling powerless to act
in my defense.  He (the doctor) just seemed to have no idea that you
actually need to get permission from a person before you cross into their
private spaces, and that something of a respectful rapport is useful (he had
spent the previous 10 minutes chastising me for my fear of needles and sternly telling me that I   “had no
choice” about having blood tests for this and that reason.  But back
to the carefree hands bit…I sat bolt upright and said “no your not”
  I decided then and there that I didn’t not want any interference
because it was inherently disempowering and the doctors attitude patronizing. 
I knew I needed encouragement, nurturing, information and most of all, for the
experience to transform me I needed a healing birth experience.  Any woman
who has experienced sexual trauma (and let’s face it…that’s a
lot of us!) will always need gentle handling.  The tiny snippet of hospital
based care I saw was definitely not that!

 

 Now
when I listen to “mainstream birthing” women talk about birth, I
hear the language of submission.  “My ob decided such and such”
or “they told me I had to…..” or “they made me birth on
my back”.  It is always something “being done” to her;
she rarely describes herself as the active participant.  It actually makes
me feel sick to hear it.  By and large women just aren’t making
their own choices and most of the time I suspect they are not supported by partners,
doctors or even midwives when they do.    When are we all going
to realize that the choices made on our behalf, about our bodies and our babies
are sometimes made by someone with conflicting interests, a different agenda
and really bad, archaic research to back it up?  My experience of
hospitals (and I work in one as a nurse, not midwife…yet) is that often we
nurses still don’t have the confidence to challenge the old medical
dinosaur.  Women need good information and solid back-up from their
midwives (I know that I am preaching to the converted here). And midwives need
to do that boldly, shamelessly and confidently, or we give women the idea that
it is “naughty” to have a different view, or to challenge the
status quo.  Had the midwife I spoke of earlier had the guts to say pull
the doctor up on his insensitivity at the time (do they hesitate to tell us
when they think we have erred?) I may have had more confidence in the
system.  But as it turned out my choice was a good one and the older I get
the more convinced I become that the machine we call “maternity care”
is not “care” at all.   We might as well call them “baby
factory units” because the reality is; they are more like factories than
places where women are cared for holistically.

 

The
changes that we are seeking here have boundaries that stretch far beyond the
walls of any maternity unit. We women still face sexism in a multitude of ways
that we either try to ignore or pretend don’t exist.  However this
has to be one of the crucial battlefields for women in the recovery of their autonomy
and freedom.  It will take a long time…but I am prepared to see it
through.   And in the mean time I recommend independent midwives and
homebirth to any one inspired by my beautiful, healing homebirth.  Some
times I hesitate to tell my story because it must appear blissfully utopian in
contrast to some women’s experiences.  But maybe those traumatized women
want to hear that such a birth is possible, so I tell it as plainly and gently
as I can-always hopeful that they might have the confidence in themselves,
their bodies and their babies to birth without interference next time.  

 

Amy

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Janet Fraser
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006
8:30 PM
To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs
support



 



Jo, you're
speaking from my heart as well. I was at a meeting last year of women working
to support others in birth trauma. All of us had been suicidal at one point,
myself included, none of us had had any support from careproviders.





I'm always happy
to share my journey but it rarely scores a comment on ozmid. What this means I
cannot judge but it makes me fear for other women in my position if we can't
tal

Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Janet Fraser]

Title: Message



Jo, you're speaking from my 
heart as well. I was at a meeting last year of women working to support others 
in birth trauma. All of us had been suicidal at one point, myself included, none 
of us had had any support from careproviders.
I'm always happy to share my 
journey but it rarely scores a comment on ozmid. What this means I cannot judge 
but it makes me fear for other women in my position if we can't talk about it 
with careproviders. It's not about blame, it's about responsibility for our 
actions as consumers and a hope that our careproviders will also take 
responsibility for their actions. We really need everyone to be be truly "with 
woman" on this one, not with protocol and not with status quo.
J

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Dean 
  & Jo 
  To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
  
  Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:43 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  
  I 
  think it is ESSENTIAL for midwives and consumer groups to be working together 
  on this one.  Amazingly enough, many complaints we hear about are from 
  women who feel their midwife let them down.  Interesting issue (as I am a 
  doula also, perception and expectation of support is of great interest).  
  
   
  Most 
  would agree with the fragmented care currently offered there is a huge 
  reliance on trusting someone who has just walked in the door.  anyone 
  caring for a woman tries to do their best; but their best may not correspond 
  with the woman's needs, even the 'nicest' midwife can upset someone 
  unintentionally.  where does the accountability lie?  bit tricky 
  there...probably too hard to define: but it doesn't remove the fact that some 
  woman is feeling like shit.
   
  I 
  think it is important for midwives and doctors (if they would ever listen) to 
  listen to the trauma experienced by women.  From experience I can say 
  that MY perception of a particular birth was it was positive: but to the woman 
  is was shit.  Care providers need to base their post birth care on not 
  what defines positive to them, but what defines positive to each individual 
  womanso easy in this system! NOT.
   
  I 
  wish that one particular person who posted on Janet's Accessing Artimise list 
  would give me permission to paste some of her recent post about the grief she 
  felt postnatally.over a year later.  To exploit her pain would be 
  adding to her grief: but her words are so powerful, it is heart 
  breaking.  
  Trauma after birth effects so many and there seems to be little being 
  done to minimize it. Bugger all being done to acknowledge it.  
  passing the sense of responsibility on to others seems to be the 
  way.
   
  The 
  'head in the sand', 'too hard basket', 'total denial', 'my hands are tied' 
  mentality has to stop soon before birth trauma claims more than a woman's 
  soul.  
   
  I am 
  deeply concerned about the lack of information provided by participants of 
  this list (a deep source of supportive woman focused care providers) o the 
  topic of post cs support.  From a consumers perspective: if people like 
  yourselves cant offer up strategies to minimize trauma after cs, then what are 
  we to do?  It doesn't bode well.
   
  no 
  disrespect intended.  I value and hold all active members of this list - 
  however as a consumer it is my right and my role to point out weakness.  
  birth trauma is a huge weakness that needs to be dealt with.  The 
  ideals of one on one midwifery should not be seen as the solution to current 
  trauma.  yes it will hopefully reduce the trauma of future women, but for 
  those who birth today...there is stuff all except isolationnot what they 
  need.
   
  I 
  was hoping to hear multitudes of posts sharing the methods of supporting and 
  educating women about cs birth:  information on post cs care: methods of 
  debriefing that does more than shift blame: words of wisdom about how we as a 
  society are caring for our future.
   
  *sigh*  
   
  love 
  Jo
  

-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet 
    FraserSent: Friday, February 03, 2006 2:58 PMTo: 
ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
support
Speaking as someone who 
helps pick up the pieces after these scenarios, this is what I offer as a 
starting point:
http://www.joyousbirth.info/articles/dealingtraumaticbirth.html
As well as a pamphlet on 
PTSD symptoms, and one for partners on how to support a traumatised 
woman.
 
The various groups I run 
offer peer support and accurate birthing information. We encourage women to 
seek their birth records and go through them with a disinterested party, to 
look at the reasons why they made choices which put them in more vulnerab

RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Dean & Jo]

Title: Message



I 
think it is ESSENTIAL for midwives and consumer groups to be working together on 
this one.  Amazingly enough, many complaints we hear about are from women 
who feel their midwife let them down.  Interesting issue (as I am a doula 
also, perception and expectation of support is of great interest).  

 
Most 
would agree with the fragmented care currently offered there is a huge reliance 
on trusting someone who has just walked in the door.  anyone caring for a 
woman tries to do their best; but their best may not correspond with the woman's 
needs, even the 'nicest' midwife can upset someone unintentionally.  where 
does the accountability lie?  bit tricky there...probably too hard to 
define: but it doesn't remove the fact that some woman is feeling like 
shit.
 
I 
think it is important for midwives and doctors (if they would ever listen) to 
listen to the trauma experienced by women.  From experience I can say that 
MY perception of a particular birth was it was positive: but to the woman is was 
shit.  Care providers need to base their post birth care on not what 
defines positive to them, but what defines positive to each individual 
womanso easy in this system! NOT.
 
I wish 
that one particular person who posted on Janet's Accessing Artimise list would 
give me permission to paste some of her recent post about the grief she felt 
postnatally.over a year later.  To exploit her pain would be adding to 
her grief: but her words are so powerful, it is heart breaking.  

Trauma 
after birth effects so many and there seems to be little being done to minimize 
it. Bugger all being done to acknowledge it.  passing the sense of 
responsibility on to others seems to be the way.
 
The 
'head in the sand', 'too hard basket', 'total denial', 'my hands are tied' 
mentality has to stop soon before birth trauma claims more than a woman's 
soul.  
 
I am 
deeply concerned about the lack of information provided by participants of this 
list (a deep source of supportive woman focused care providers) o the topic of 
post cs support.  From a consumers perspective: if people like yourselves 
cant offer up strategies to minimize trauma after cs, then what are we to 
do?  It doesn't bode well.
 
no 
disrespect intended.  I value and hold all active members of this list - 
however as a consumer it is my right and my role to point out weakness.  
birth trauma is a huge weakness that needs to be dealt with.  The 
ideals of one on one midwifery should not be seen as the solution to current 
trauma.  yes it will hopefully reduce the trauma of future women, but for 
those who birth today...there is stuff all except isolationnot what they 
need.
 
I was 
hoping to hear multitudes of posts sharing the methods of supporting and 
educating women about cs birth:  information on post cs care: methods of 
debriefing that does more than shift blame: words of wisdom about how we as a 
society are caring for our future.
 
*sigh*  
 
love 
Jo

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet 
  FraserSent: Friday, February 03, 2006 2:58 PMTo: 
  ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs 
  support
  Speaking as someone who 
  helps pick up the pieces after these scenarios, this is what I offer as a 
  starting point:
  http://www.joyousbirth.info/articles/dealingtraumaticbirth.html
  As well as a pamphlet on 
  PTSD symptoms, and one for partners on how to support a traumatised 
  woman.
   
  The various groups I run 
  offer peer support and accurate birthing information. We encourage women to 
  seek their birth records and go through them with a disinterested party, to 
  look at the reasons why they made choices which put them in more vulnerable 
  positions, and provide resouces with how to make more nurturing choices next 
  time - provided it's not an emergency hysterectomy as that's a whole other 
  kettle of fish. We offer contacts for groups and counselling in each state, 
  where they exist.
  : )
  J
  I'll be interested to see 
  what those closer to the coalface are offering to consumers as well. It would 
  be neat to work in concert!
  --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by 
  AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release 
  Date: 2/2/2006


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[ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Dean & Jo]

Can I just throw in the question: what strategies do you as a care
provider offer those women who birth by cs, especially those who wanted
a natural birth or having their first baby, in order to minimize the
chances of an adverse emotional outcome?  Is there any 'thing' in
particular that you have devised or your institution implements that may
reduce women feeling emotions that may carry into the next few months or
manifest into PND or worse PTSS?  How much of your continuing training
has addressed emotional effects of birth for women?  Does your unit,
including the obstetric staff, address this issue as a legitimate one?
Is there an understanding that there are some women who are more likely
to suffer from the birth experience over others...differentiating
between those who may have been screened during pregnancy for increased
PND risks.

And finally, what information do you give women who have birthed by cs
when going home?

Cheers
Jo


 

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