Jeremy Howard wrote:
I haven't got around to RFCing the more generic version (that all attributes
are inherited inside nested data types), but that would certainly be a nice
approach.
Not to confuse, let's call it cascading instead of inheritance.
--
John Porter
, especially wrt Perl. :-/
--
John Porter
be confused or conflated.
We just need to clear up what kind of block grep/map use: either a true
sub (which I favor), or a distinct kind, with its own early exit keyword(s).
--
John Porter
We're building the house of the future together.
of people; and the majority of people reading text files are
reading platform-native text files.
--
John Porter
. Just MHO.
--
John Porter
John Porter wrote:
Mark Dominus [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
This behavior should be changed. If the PATTERN is empty, Perl should
look for the empty string. (That is, if the PATTERN is empty, it
should always match.)
Except perhaps for undef loperands? (matchees? bindees?)
What did you
David Nicol [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
The other way C++ allows you to overload a named function is
by return type.
This is explicitly incorrect. The return type is not used in the
resolution of an overloaded function.
That's not to say that it wouldn't be nice to have in perl...
--
John Porter
How about contain() or detach() or revalue()?
I might just throw out that the operator "let" does the job in Lisp.
Also, how about renaming my() to local()? Will this be too confusing?
I feel strongly that "my" and "our" should both be renamed,
as well as "local".
--
John Porter
with something like "var global". Extra verbosity required for globals
might be A Good Thing.
--
John Porter
{ $_-[$i] } @_ ) } 0..$m;
}
I guess my question is, why do these need to be builtins?
There is no limit to the funky algorithms one can come up with;
not everyting should go in the core.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Buddha Buck wrote:
The one concern I would raise about this is that a common use of multi-line
comments is to dyke out code. As such, it is handy to have the start and
end markers different, and allow nesting.
It nice to be able to bounce on % in vi, too:
=#{
comment
=#}
--
John
Michael Mathews wrote:
At the risk getting too exotic how about:
#EOC;
some
comments
EOC
Just introduce a new function which is a bit bucket:
# works in perl5.
sub comment(@) { }
comment q{ comments... };
comment EOF;
comment
EOF
--
John Porter
semantics of scalar
literals in void context, to be silently ignored.
Then you can make a comment any way you want.
--
John Porter
Peter Scott wrote:
At 02:53 PM 8/2/00 -0400, John Porter wrote:
Perhaps a better way would be a change in the semantics of scalar
literals in void context, to be silently ignored.
No! It's a major typo/bug-catcher.
Strange, my experience does not confirm that one whit.
--
John Porter
Brust, Corwin wrote:
messages.rfc - An RFC to discussing the wisdom of allowing run time error
and warning messages to be modified at run time
...
I want perl's error (and warning) messages to be specific to each program I
write.
Isn't this covered by locales?
--
John Porter
Tad McClellan wrote:
or saveval()# indicates it is about _values_
tempval()
or myval() # my _value_, not my(variable)
or even pushpop() # maybe not :-)
pushval()
--
John Porter
pair of matching Unicode characters. I.e. instead of multi-char,
think wide-char.
And yet using non-paired
delimiters doesn't allow commenting out comments.
Since what I think this means is false, you probably mean
something else...
--
John Porter
nt # + $c * $d;
=end comment
The pod solution is more or less obvious. Inlinable nestable
comments are something else, and it should look like perl.
qc() -- compiled to nothingness.
--
John Porter
Tom Christiansen wrote:
comment /EOC/; this is an arbitrary comment. EOC
Smack--the lexer cowers before you!
Well, hey, while we're daydreaming... :-)
--
John Porter
the other guy who made an argument like
this in seriousness earlier gets the point...]
--
John Porter
Glenn Linderman wrote:
Stick with characters in the normal character set of the author of the
script, except for forays into the language of the users of the script.
Good advice for the programmer, perhaps; but it should not be perl's
job to enforce that discipline.
--
John Porter
Tom Christiansen wrote:
OTOH, being fun (which I admit it is) is one of the reasons many
people don't want to think Perl is a serious language.
So we shouldn't argue for a feature simply because it's fun,
especially when the counterargument includes increased acceptability.
--
John Porter
..at least if new newsgroups appear, you get notified about it!
Speaking of which, I believe the plan was to announce new list
creations on perl6-announce; can someone confirm that this is
actually happening?
--
John Porter
Bart Lateur wrote:
On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:48:17 -0400, John Porter wrote:
OTOH, being fun (which I admit it is) is one of the reasons many
people don't want to think Perl is a serious language.
I don't agree. The problem is somewhere else, namely the problem that
Ilya Z. brought up
think Perl would be Better for having it.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
powerful than the other?
--
John Porter
programmers want to bother with the extra two keystrokes!
Or perhaps more the point, -P is essentially never used in any of
the canonical code examples, books, etc.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Nick Ing-Simmons wrote:
John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
my integer $quux = 4;
I believe that would have to be
integer my $quux = 4;
at least in perl5...
Well Larry has been using
my Dog $spot;
for a while.
O.k., I see that now; I was thinking 'integer
?
$root-traverse({$sum += __});
That has mnemonic value, since it looks kinda like an anonymous sub...
--
John Porter
Jeremy Howard wrote:
Yes, I change my mind sounds of gears clicking I like the '^' prefix
too. The difficulty of reading __ would be a pain.
But what happens here?
/^__foo/
Or here?
/^{__}foo/
Is the latter sufficiently unambiguous?
--
John Porter
. '__' is already a valid package name, or sub name, for examples.
--
John Porter
Has anyone suggested '*'? Since its use for typeglobs is (repsumably)
going away, it's available (right?).
It the "wildcard" mnemonic value is consistent with "placeholder".
--
John Porter
Jeremy Howard wrote:
Yes, they're not identical. What I mean of course is:
(..-1) == reverse(map -__ (1..));
WHAT? So the semantics of .. are magically different in the context
of (..$n) so as to produce numbers in descending order?
I don't think so.
--
John Porter
Nathan Torkington wrote:
John Porter writes:
Compilation: Remove requirement for final true value in require'd and
do'ed files
Do not. I use this feature.
Is there any reason you couldn't use "die" instead?
???
Throw an exception in order to return a (0|'')-but-
.
The semantics of == vs eq is currently very well defined and distinct.
The proposal muddies the distinctions.
The thing that allows you to LOL is precisely the thing which should
motivate us to not reduce Perl's already low orthogonality quotient
without very compelling reasons.
--
John Porter
the RFC
is even issued!
--
John Porter
y 1
of his perl course.
--
John Porter
-import('bar');
which implicitly occurs?
--
John Porter
one.
That's sort of a special case. What happens with multiple END blocks?
perl must compile them and stash them in the END symbol, chained somehow.
--
John Porter
t parsable, pretend that BEGIN and END are
the names of functions with prototype () which register callbacks.
I agree ... except that, in perl5 at least, you'd need a terminating
semicolon if that analogy were 100% accurate.
--
John Porter
'MyClass', $val; # we're not in a string context
We already have scalar(). We should also have string(), void(), etc.
for the "intrinsic" contexts.
--
John Porter
Ariel Scolnicov wrote:
I rarely use a `now' scope,
Well, 'now' is a declaration; the scope is "temporal", aka "dynamic".
Variable declaration is good (except for some trivial programs)!
I agree 1000%!
--
John Porter
Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
And what about user-defined contexts? (my Dog $spot = some_func();)
I think a context coercion operator would do just fine.
Oh, I agree entirely! But the intrinsic contexts should have concise
operators (e.g. scalar()).
--
John Porter
= bless {}, 'Foo';
$s = "$r";
ref($s); # True.
$s-bar; # call method of Foo.
I guess that means the deref operator would have be implicitly overloaded
for strings...
--
John Porter
chomp;
$x{ $_ . $y };
}
}
--
John Porter
Ted Ashton wrote:
John Porter:
What would be the output of the following program:
$\ = "\n";
$i = 0;
for ( .. -1 ) {
$i++;
last if $i 2;
print
}
If the answer is (as I suspect), "This never prints an
executable code into a commenmt,
rather than how to get executable code out of the program
That's a very astute observation; and it's why the solutions may
reasonably be independent.
--
John Porter
not attempt to address the in-line
comments issue -- and would fail if it did try, because that is a
issue with the whole of POD, even in the absence of RFC 79.
--
John Porter
as
=for perl-code pod
sub foo($\@%)
{
#...
}
The latter type:
print
=for perl-string pod
Help is on the way.
;
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Bryan C. Warnock wrote:
Chomp removes one or more line separators from the end.
It does? You're using a different version of Perl than I am.
--
John Porter
Uri Guttman wrote:
"JP" == John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JP Maybe what's needed is two distinct perl pod processor types, one
JP which passes on the text literally to the compiler, and one which
JP wraps it up like a string literal.
JP pri
Johan Vromans wrote:
Be reminded that Perl++ will increment Perl, but return the _current_
value.
Heh, at least we're not
python = python + 1
--
John Porter
:
try {
}
catch Exception::Thingy, Exception::Whingy
with {
--
John Porter
t so "catch" takes a list of 0 or more exception
class names.
--
John Porter
in
the opposite order. (..-1) should generate -INF first, but obviously
it can't do that. (..$n) is an impossible construct, and should be
a fatal error -- presuming it even gets past the lexer...
--
John Porter
to rethrow unhandled exceptions, you can always
catch { die }
--
John Porter
Damian Conway wrote:
More and more I lean towards a scalar-only reduce.
Yep!
Simpler semantics and you can always ref a L(OL(OL(OL...etc.))) if you need
multidimensionals.
Combined with highlander variables, and there ceases to be a problem.
--
John Porter
ly.
Huh? It's significantly shorter. It's one statement vs. three, and
requires no temporary variables.
Would it be faster? I doubt it.
What do you base that on? The fact that the reduce() version would
involve so many more costly perl OPs?
--
John Porter
Bart Lateur wrote:
Actually, we don't need it. All we need, is lazy evaluation.
The idea comes from Lisp,
No, that's no good; lazy evaluation was necessitated by functional
programming, which of course perl should avoid like the plague...
--
John Porter
Andy Wardley wrote:
cleave()?
Note that cleave is its own antonym! :-)
--
John Porter
, @args, %hey;
(Well, I guess that's two: the assignment is an op also.)
--
John Porter
ed by pod processors, but maybe I'm out of it:
=begin data
=end foo
more data
=end data
Now, I suppose that =data would be a synonyms for
=end all begin data, and would be a replacement for __DATA__
--
John Porter
Nathan Wiger wrote:
...if the "key" and "value" builtins were the only ways to
get to the data. You should be able to get to the data directly.
How about:
$array[0].k
$array[0].v
--
John Porter
an assoc. array,
with no extra support required in the core; deep and special-case
comparisons can be supplied by the user.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Chaim Frenkel wrote:
Let the object determine the calling convention for the method.
I see very little reason to have two methods with different signatures.
Yes! That's the Perl philosophy! Right on!
--
John Porter
"I hate that in ..." type comments.
You forget... There have been numerous cases of people saying things like
"that's what Python [or Java] calls those functions, so we should call
them something else."
--
John Porter
t, e.g. "eat me", than the tiny bit
of syntax that creates the comment. And ## is surely a tiny bit
of syntax. (Or else I let my editor look for comments; and /qc is
no harder to type than /#.)
Plus it has the advantage of not introducing any new syntax, only
the qc// operator.
But this has all been said before, and I apologize.
--
John Porter
, "andthen" doesn't seem like a good choice.
Other possibilities:
therefore
implies
segue
seq
so
--
John Porter
Stephen P. Potter wrote:
Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] whispered
:
| Here's a counter-proposal: throw out hashes as a separate internal
| data type, and in its place define a set of operators which treat
| (properly constructed) arrays as associative
relaxation of strictness in a special
context (interpolation) makes me uneasy...
--
John Porter
at the lexical level. Get rid of "$" too.
x is a symbol; perl can look up what it means.
--
John Porter
which would eliminate distinguishing symbols,
and/or the things they distinguish, is on the wrong track, eh? Yep.
--
John Porter
ially zero information.
"We want to get rid of linenoise because the other language X does not
have linenoise" is kind of poor argument because it easily draws the
retort "Well, you know where to find X is, then. This is Perl."
I agree. I've never used that argument. At le
Dan Sugalski wrote:
Tossing the worthless and confusing ones is good. Tossung the useless
and distinguishing ones is bad.
Uh, which ones did you have in mind, by "useless and distinguishing"? ;-)
--
John Porter
represent,
the LESS information it carries; and there will come a point --
when perl6 is released, if not sooner -- when the symbol will
be essentially content-free. So get rid of it. It's a waste.
--
John Porter
inherent capabilities give you faster response times, and quicker
comprehension.
Sure. But "instinct and inherent capabilities" do not apply here.
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
Dan Sugalski wrote:
If the symbol becomes content-free, perhaps the problem is with what made
it useless, not with the symbol itself...
Yes!
--
John Porter
John Porter wrote:
Dan Sugalski wrote:
If the symbol becomes content-free, perhaps the problem is with what made
it useless, not with the symbol itself...
Yes!
But that's not to say I agree that certain proposals which would have
the effect of rendering the symbol useless
Damian Conway wrote:
So how is that different from:
do BLOCK1 until do BLOCK2
???
Because if BLOCK1 ever evaluates to False, the operation terminates.
It's more like
do { r = f1() } until ( not r or f2() );
--
John Porter
actic cues -- [] vs {} -- is so limited,
it would be better to have just one, and let the user bind the indexing
scheme to the variable.
--
John Porter
some pathological behavior of the hashing function.
--
John Porter
Peter Scott wrote:
At 05:33 PM 8/15/00 -0400, John Porter wrote:
The thing I don't like about C++/Java try/catch syntax is the way
the blocks are daisychained. That is not intuitive to the flow.
I find it quite intuitive :-)
I note the smiley.
What interpretation should be placed
Johan Vromans wrote:
So how is that different from:
do BLOCK1 until do BLOCK2
It's the same.
No, not quite. See my other post.
--
John Porter
hould all be equally
reasonable:
$s = "$obj"; # convert to string
$n = $obj+0; # convert to number
$x = $obj[1]; # convert to array
$x = $obj{y}; # convert to hash
--
John Porter
dexed by string" is not.
--
John Porter
a myth.
The punctuation imposes context on the variable expression.
$foo[0]
accesses an array. Where's the "@"?
--
John Porter
Jonathan Scott Duff wrote:
Gee, I'd hate to lose simple assignment to a hash from a list.
foo %= bar;
Hmm, I think I need to write an RFC!
--
John Porter
eminently feasible.
sub FETCH {
my( $self, $key ) = @_;
my @indices = split $;, $key;
...
}
(I do something like this in my Tie::Multidim module :-)
--
John Porter
Aus tiefem Traum bin ich erwacht.
John Barnette wrote:
John Porter wrote:
The punctuation imposes context on the variable expression.
$foo[0]
accesses an array. Where's the "@"?
It accesses an *element* of the array, which is a scalar.
Still, the "$" does not describe the type of
so stringize the key:
my $index = "$_[0]";
...
--
John Porter
Nathan Torkington wrote:
John Porter writes:
foo $= ( bar, quux ); # provide scalar context to both sides
foo @= ( bar, quux ); # provide list context to both sides
I assume you've dropped this idea as well, given the argument that you
would be dropping prefix symbols
personal taste is not a valid rhetorical device in this forum. Or at
least it shouldn't be allowed to be.
Clearly we all stand by RFC0. That should go without saying, just like
RFC0 itself.
/soapbox
--
John Porter
ow it does. It doesn't help anyone to write "@var".
Similarly, in
bar = unshift(hats, foo);
"Okay, Chats is obviously a list, but is it shifting in a scalar or a
list of things? And is it assigning to another list or a scalar to get
the new list lenghth?"
You are ask
Ariel Scolnicov wrote:
John Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
foo = bar;
foo could be just about anything: a string, a hashref, some other
blessed ref (with op"=" possibly overloaded!), or even an lvalue sub.
Do you know? Should you care?
I don't know, but I think I s
Mike Pastore wrote:
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, John Porter wrote:
grep() always treats its "second" arg as a list, even if it's a scalar,
or some other list-of-one (or none); and grep() always returns a list,
even if it's a list of one (or none).
True on the first part, false on
Jon Ericson wrote:
John Porter wrote:
...all variable types (scalar, array, hash) are simply objects.
Not in Perl.
Yes, in perl.
$dog and $cat are objects. $dog can bark and $cat can scratch. The
author of the module (Zoo::Animal?) should have documented these
methods
ell, maybe that'll be different
in perl6?)
--
John Porter
Piers Cawley wrote:
You forgot:
print (1, 11, 21, 1211, ...)
print( 'M', 'MI', 'MIU', ... )
ALso, Larry, how about making the various common emoticons meaningful?
please do come from 10; :-)
I.e. "belay that command".
--
John Porter
We'r
Casey R. Tweten wrote:
sub func {
return qw/KeyOne Value1 KeyTwo Value2/;
}
print "$_\n" foreach keys func();
Please. There are ways -- well, just one way -- to do this, even in perl5.
print "$_\n" foreach keys %{{ func() }};
--
John Porter
of interpreter
state (code, data).
--
John Porter
We're building the house of the future together.
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