Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Wes Turner]

On Thursday, May 3, 2018, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 07:39:05AM +0200, Matěj Cepl wrote:
>
> > I have my doubts about IDLE though. I know, the same
> > argument applies, but really, does anybody use IDLE for
> > development for long time
>
> Yes, tons of beginners use it. On the tutor and python-list mailing
> lists, there are plenty of questions from people using IDLE.


Turtle is built with Tkinter:
https://docs.python.org/3/library/turtle.html

IIRC, I used IDLE when first learning Python.
Dive Into Python 3 recommends IDLE.
http://www.diveintopython3.net/installing-python.html#idle

Hopefully this bug is fixed by someone.

PyQt and PySide:
- are more accessible to screen readers
- support QThread, QThreadPool, QRunnable
- quamash is an asyncio event loop with/for Qt
- PyQtGraph



>
> --
> Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Matěj Cepl]

On 2018-05-03, 15:56 GMT, Tim Peters wrote:
> IDLE isn't just for eager beginners, but also for those so old 
> & senile they're incapable of learning anything new ever again.  As
> proof, IDLE is still _my_ primary Python development environment, used
> multiple times every day, and I'm so old & out-of-it that I'm +1 on
> the binding expressions PEP ;-)

Glad to find that such person exists! I thought that you are 
just a mythical legend, I am glad to be shown otherwise.

Best,

Matěj Cepl
-- 
https://matej.ceplovi.cz/blog/, Jabber: mc...@ceplovi.cz
GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5  BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
 
To err is human, to purr feline.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev]

On 03.05.2018 20:11, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:

On May 3, 2018 11:56:24 AM MRAB  wrote:


On 2018-05-03 13:24, Steve Holden wrote:

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
> wrote:

    On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

    On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
    Paul Moore > wrote:


    On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou > wrote:

    To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced 
both a

    detailed
    analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an
    advertised
    feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of 
work

    (or, even,
    forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a
    detailed analysis and a
    PR is more than most people will ever do.

    His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a 
response,

    yes. But
    are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter)
    seriously,
    based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it 
appears

    that the
    many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that
    causes a crash
    in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen
    in the
    python.org  3.x builds, if I understand
    the description of the issue).

    In 3.x, Tkinter+threads is broken too, albeit in a different way --
    see https://bugs.python.org/issue33412
     (this should've been the 2nd
    link in the initial message, sorry for the mix-up).


​The observation in t​hat issue that tkinter and threads should be
handled in specific ways is certainly a given for old hands, who have
long put the GUI code in one thread with one or more concurrent worker
threads typically communicating through queues. But I haven't built
anything like that recently, so I couldn't say how helpful the current
documenation might be.


Interacting with the GUI only in the main thread is something that I've
had to do in other languages (it is/was the recommended practice), so I
naturally do the same with Python and tkinter. It's also easier to
reason about because you don't get elements of the GUI changing
unexpectedly.


To add to this, most GUI frameworks disallow modifications outside the 
main thread altogether. IIRC both GTK+ and Qt require this, or else 
it's undefined altogether.


You still need some facility (*cough*SendMessage*cough*) to send update 
commands to the GUI (the model->view link in MVC, presenter->view in MVP).
Who and how specifically carries out these commands is unimportant, an 
implementation detail.


Every GUI has an event/message queue exactly for that, that other 
threads can sent work requests into:
https://doc.qt.io/qt-5.10/qcoreapplication.html#postEvent , 
https://developer.gnome.org/gdk3/stable/gdk3-Threads.html#gdk3-Threads.description 
, 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_dispatching_thread#Submitting_user_code_to_the_EDT 
, the aforementioned WinAPI's SendMessage() and PostMessage() just to 
name a few.


Tcl/Tk, being arguably the oldest usable GUI toolkit in existence, has 
an event queue likewise but doesn't provide a complete event loop 
implementation, only the building blocks for it. Tkinter fills that gap 
with its `tk.mainloop()`.
It fails to provide a working means to send work into it though. Having 
to use a second, duplicating event queue and poll it (=busy loop) 
instead is an obvious crutch.


[snip]
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Regards,
Ivan

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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Ryan Gonzalez]

On May 3, 2018 11:56:24 AM MRAB  wrote:


On 2018-05-03 13:24, Steve Holden wrote:

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
> wrote:

On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
Paul Moore > wrote:

On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou > wrote:

To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a
detailed
analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an
advertised
feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work
(or, even,
forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a
detailed analysis and a
PR is more than most people will ever do.

His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response,
yes. But
are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter)
seriously,
based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears
that the
many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that
causes a crash
in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen
in the
python.org  3.x builds, if I understand
the description of the issue).

In 3.x, Tkinter+threads is broken too, albeit in a different way --
see https://bugs.python.org/issue33412
 (this should've been the 2nd
link in the initial message, sorry for the mix-up).


​The observation in t​hat issue that tkinter and threads should be
handled in specific ways is certainly a given for old hands, who have
long put the GUI code in one thread with one or more concurrent worker
threads typically communicating through queues. But I haven't built
anything like that recently, so I couldn't say how helpful the current
documenation might be.


Interacting with the GUI only in the main thread is something that I've
had to do in other languages (it is/was the recommended practice), so I
naturally do the same with Python and tkinter. It's also easier to
reason about because you don't get elements of the GUI changing
unexpectedly.


To add to this, most GUI frameworks disallow modifications outside the main 
thread altogether. IIRC both GTK+ and Qt require this, or else it's 
undefined altogether.




[snip]
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer]

Maybe the only 1 thing needs an update : some nice ui

else,

i'm glad python has a gui library

as one interested in languages, py is just crazy (though i miss some
android apps using it). in a GPL, a gui library is one of those extra
goodies

if you would browse the source codes, you'd see good old compiler theories
being used (no ANTLR for example)

tkinter is pretty good. as one that still believes in tkinter and has as a
result of it explored many apps, what you can do with tkinter is crazy. as
to no one using it; did you consider production: installing a 3rd party
package for what is already integrated

ah just the docs, they are not as candy as python's docs

to drop it, we use what? maybe we'll all join punching some bags before we
get a stable gui package in production

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ

On Thu, 3 May 2018, 00:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev, <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for both
> Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> least, and no-one gives a damn.
>
> This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> interested in or are using it.
>
> If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in
> the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Ivan
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[MRAB]

On 2018-05-03 13:24, Steve Holden wrote:
On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev 
> wrote:


On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
Paul Moore > wrote:

On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou > wrote:

To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a
detailed
analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an
advertised
feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work
(or, even,
forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a
detailed analysis and a
PR is more than most people will ever do.

His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response,
yes. But
are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter)
seriously,
based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears
that the
many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that
causes a crash
in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen
in the
python.org  3.x builds, if I understand
the description of the issue).

In 3.x, Tkinter+threads is broken too, albeit in a different way --
see https://bugs.python.org/issue33412
 (this should've been the 2nd
link in the initial message, sorry for the mix-up).


​The observation in t​hat issue that tkinter and threads should be 
handled in specific ways is certainly a given for old hands, who have 
long put the GUI code in one thread with one or more concurrent worker 
threads typically communicating through queues. But I haven't built 
anything like that recently, so I couldn't say how helpful the current 
documenation might be.


Interacting with the GUI only in the main thread is something that I've 
had to do in other languages (it is/was the recommended practice), so I 
naturally do the same with Python and tkinter. It's also easier to 
reason about because you don't get elements of the GUI changing 
unexpectedly.


[snip]
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Tim Peters]

[Matěj Cepl ]
> It absolutely impossible to remove Tkinter IMHO (it has been
> part of stdlib since like forever and people expect it there;
> its removal would be betrayal on the level of switching = to
> :=), I have my doubts about IDLE though. I know, the same
> argument applies, but really, does anybody use IDLE for
> development for long time, what is its real value for the
> community? Although, even this argument is questionable, because
> Python has some affinity with the learning, and IDLE is a nice
> for first steps nibbling into Python.

IDLE isn't just for eager beginners, but also for those so old &
senile they're incapable of learning anything new ever again.  As
proof, IDLE is still _my_ primary Python development environment, used
multiple times every day, and I'm so old & out-of-it that I'm +1 on
the binding expressions PEP ;-)
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
>> Paul Moore  wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>>>
 To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
 analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
 feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
 forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
 PR is more than most people will ever do.

>>> His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response, yes. But
>>> are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter) seriously,
>>> based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears that the
>>> many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that causes a crash
>>> in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen in the
>>> python.org 3.x builds, if I understand the description of the issue).
>>>
>> In 3.x, Tkinter+threads is broken too, albeit in a different way -- see
> https://bugs.python.org/issue33412 (this should've been the 2nd link in
> the initial message, sorry for the mix-up).
>

​The observation in t​hat issue that tkinter and threads should be handled
in specific ways is certainly a given for old hands, who have long put the
GUI code in one thread with one or more concurrent worker threads typically
communicating through queues. But I haven't built anything like that
recently, so I couldn't say how helpful the current documenation might be.

The 2.x bug also shows in 3.x if it's linked with a nonthreaded version of
> Tcl (dunno how rare that is, but the code still supports this setup).
>
>> I and others actually suggested it seriously in the past.  Now,
>> admittedly, at least IDLE seems better maintained than it used to
>> be -- not sure about Tkinter itself.
>>
>> Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless
>>> of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about
>>> volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or
>>> constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I
>>> think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly
>>> reasonable.
>>>
>> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
>> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
>> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
>> reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
>> apparently it can be offensive.
>>
> Confirm, never meant this as an insult.
>
> I had to use emotional language to drive the point home that it's not some
> nitpick, it really causes people serious trouble (I lost a source of
> income, for the record).
> Without the emotional impact, my message could easily be ignored as some
> noise not worth attention. This time, it's just too damn important to allow
> this possibility.
>
> With respect, I would say you CHOSE to use emotional language. I don't see
that much indication that its absence had failed to produce responses,
though they may not have been the responses you wanted.

Unfortunately the developers are rather too used to this kind of gratuitous
abuse and so many of them may have overlooked your detailed analysis of the
issues you were experiencing, since constructive contributions don't
normally accompany such rants.

The module being abandoned and unused is truly the only explanation I could
> think of when seeing that glaring bugs have stayed unfixed for 15 years (an
> infinity in IT), in an actively developed and highly used software.
> This may be flattering for my ego, but if the module really is in any
> production use to speak of, then in all these years, with all this
> humongous user base, someone, somewhere in the world, at some point, should
> have looked into this. I don't even program in C professionally, yet was
> able to diagnose it and make a PR!
>
> ​I think the fact that alarm bells haven't clanged is likely a product of
​tkinter's relatively small user base, perhaps amplified by dwindling
availability of "GYU in one thread" lore. Anyway they have certainly
clanged now.

---
>
> I'll make a PR with the doc warning as Guido suggested unless there are
> any better ideas.
>
> ​In the absence of other actions this would be a good first step. Thank
you.
​


> Meanwhile, I'd really appreciate any response to my other message -- it is
> about actually fixing the issue, and I do need feedback to be able to
> proceed.
> No need to delve all the way in and give an official authorization or
> something. I'm only looking for an opinion poll on which redesign option
> (if any) looks like the most reasonable way to proceed and/or in line with
> the big picture (the last one -- to provide a unifying vision -- is _the_
> job of a BDFL IIRC).
>

​I 

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Skip Montanaro]

One other small bit... There is some precedent for retaining modules where
the underlying library was known to be buggy. The dearly departed bsddb
module exposed libdb 1.85 (as I recall) which had an unfixable bug. Still,
bsddb supported that broken version of the library for quite awhile before
itself being deprecated, then removed, from the stdlib. I believe it was
the sole persistent key/value store for most of the early years.

So, bugs or not (& fixable or not) it's not like we haven't encountered
this kind of case before.

Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Paul Moore]

On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

>> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
>> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
>> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
>> reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
>> apparently it can be offensive.
>
> I'm Anglo-Saxon[1], and honestly I believe that it is thin-skinned to
> the point of ludicrousness to say that "no-one gives a damn" is an
> insult. This isn't 1939 when Clark Gable's famous line "Frankly my dear,
> I don't give a damn" was considered shocking. Its 2018 and to not give a
> damn is a more forceful way of saying that people don't care, that they
> are indifferent.

Sigh. That's not what I was saying at all. I was trying to point out
that Antoine's claim that people should ignore the rhetoric and that
complaining about the attitude was unreasonable, was in itself unfair.
People have a right to point out that a mail like the OP's was badly
worded.

> With respect to Paul, I literally cannot imagine why he thinks that
> *anyone*, not even the tkinter maintainers or developers themselves,
> ought to feel *offended* by Ivan's words.

Personally, they didn't offend me. I don't pretend to know how others
might take them. But they *did* annoy me. I'm frankly sick of people
(not on this list) complaining that people who work on projects in
their own time, free of charge, "don't care enough" or "are ignoring
my requirement". We all do it, to an extent, and it's natural to get
frustrated, but the onus is on the person asking for help to be polite
and fair. And maybe this response was the one where I finally let that
frustration show through. I may read less email for a week or two,
just to get a break.

> But I think a clue might be his subsequent use of the word *annoyed*. Is
> it annoying to be told that "no-one cares" when in fact you care? Of
> course it can be. It is a perfectly reasonable to feel annoyed. But it
> isn't reasonable to lash out at every little annoyance.

Correct, I'm personally annoyed rather than offended. And maybe I
reacted strongly (although my reaction was mainly a defense of
people's right to be annoyed or offended, not a direct response to the
OP). I *hope* it wasn't "lashing out", but I concede that others may
view it differently than I do. It *certainly* isn't against "every
little annoyance" though - I've been dealing politely and calmly with
*many* entitled and misguided complaints recently (in many lists and
fora - no point in trying to go hunting down what I'm referring to
;-))  and this was one too many. I should probably have just shut up
and deleted the thread. I *will* stop at this point and not respond
again on this thread.

> All interpersonal interactions can involve annoyances. And none of us
> are purely on the receiving end, we all also cause them. None of us are
> so perfect that we can afford to lash out each time somebody causes some
> tiny little annoyance. We ought to gloss over the little ones, just as
> we hope others will swallow *their* annoyance at the things we do.
>
> If we're going to be open, respectful and considerate, we have a duty
> not to have a hair-trigger "I'm offended" response at tiny annoyances.

While true, this is biased in favour of people who start new threads,
allowing them the freedom to not consider other's feelings or
situations while expecting the recipients to be forgiving of hyperbole
and overstated rhetoric. Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1984/

> "That's offensive!", in this day and age, is the nuclear weapon of
> interpersonal conflict, and nothing Ivan said was so terrible that it
> deserved such an attack. Not if we are to be open, considerate and
> respectful. We ought to start by respecting the clear emotional pain in
> his email and not responding by going on the attack. "A soft answer
> turns away wrath".

If that's directed at me, it's unfair. Personally, I consider "it's
offensive" to be a mild expression of distaste at what someone says -
often used somewhat jokingly, in reference to "political correctness"
style jokes. Antoine clearly took it otherwise - his mention of "Anglo
Saxon" suggests to me that he feels it's a cultural thing - although
if so, he's misinterpreted the relevant cultures as far as I can see.
British informal culture in my experience tends to be similar to what
I describe above as my view. Or maybe he's just thinking of "people
taking too much care to stick within the letter of codes of conduct",
I don't know. I'm happy to try to avoid the word "offensive" in my
future posts - it clearly has connotations that don't match what I
intend.

I've said my piece, so I'll leave it at that. I don't want mailing
lists to become sterile places where everyone feels unable to speak
their mind for fear of upsetting others, but I do think we *all* need
to consider the other person's perspective. And I *particularly* 

Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 07:39:05AM +0200, Matěj Cepl wrote:

> I have my doubts about IDLE though. I know, the same 
> argument applies, but really, does anybody use IDLE for 
> development for long time

Yes, tons of beginners use it. On the tutor and python-list mailing 
lists, there are plenty of questions from people using IDLE.


-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Matěj Cepl]

On 2018-05-02, 21:41 GMT, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> So what do *you* think. Do you agree with the OP that Tkinter (and hence
> IDLE) should be scrapped?

It absolutely impossible to remove Tkinter IMHO (it has been 
part of stdlib since like forever and people expect it there; 
its removal would be betrayal on the level of switching = to 
:=), I have my doubts about IDLE though. I know, the same 
argument applies, but really, does anybody use IDLE for 
development for long time, what is its real value for the 
community? Although, even this argument is questionable, because 
Python has some affinity with the learning, and IDLE is a nice 
for first steps nibbling into Python.

Best,

Matěj

-- 
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GPG Finger: 3C76 A027 CA45 AD70 98B5  BC1D 7920 5802 880B C9D8
 
Only two of my personalities are schizophrenic, but one of them
is paranoid and the other one is out to get him.

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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 12:01:53AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
> Paul Moore  wrote:

> > Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless
> > of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about
> > volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or
> > constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I
> > think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly
> > reasonable.
> 
> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
> reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
> apparently it can be offensive.

I'm Anglo-Saxon[1], and honestly I believe that it is thin-skinned to 
the point of ludicrousness to say that "no-one gives a damn" is an 
insult. This isn't 1939 when Clark Gable's famous line "Frankly my dear, 
I don't give a damn" was considered shocking. Its 2018 and to not give a 
damn is a more forceful way of saying that people don't care, that they 
are indifferent.

It is a truism on the internet that nobody gets to decide for anyone 
else what they do or don't find offensive, but I think that the 
respectful and kind response is to interpret Ivan's statement as a cry 
of anguish and pain, to read it with at least a modicum of sympathy, 
rather than to read it as an insult and offensive accusation of 
indifference.

(And why should being accused of indifference be offensive? The world is 
full of things I have neither the time nor inclination to give a damn 
about. I deny that I ought to feel guilty or ashamed by that fact.)

I think Guido's response was great: acknowledge Ivan's pain (apparently 
he lost a job or some income) without attacking him, neither dismissing 
Ivan's feelings nor validating them as a tactic for getting his way. 
Thank you Guido for leading by example.

With respect to Paul, I literally cannot imagine why he thinks that 
*anyone*, not even the tkinter maintainers or developers themselves, 
ought to feel *offended* by Ivan's words.

But I think a clue might be his subsequent use of the word *annoyed*. Is 
it annoying to be told that "no-one cares" when in fact you care? Of 
course it can be. It is a perfectly reasonable to feel annoyed. But it 
isn't reasonable to lash out at every little annoyance.

All interpersonal interactions can involve annoyances. And none of us 
are purely on the receiving end, we all also cause them. None of us are 
so perfect that we can afford to lash out each time somebody causes some 
tiny little annoyance. We ought to gloss over the little ones, just as 
we hope others will swallow *their* annoyance at the things we do.

If we're going to be open, respectful and considerate, we have a duty 
not to have a hair-trigger "I'm offended" response at tiny annoyances.

"That's offensive!", in this day and age, is the nuclear weapon of 
interpersonal conflict, and nothing Ivan said was so terrible that it 
deserved such an attack. Not if we are to be open, considerate and 
respectful. We ought to start by respecting the clear emotional pain in 
his email and not responding by going on the attack. "A soft answer 
turns away wrath".



[1] By culture, not genetics.

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Terry Reedy]

On 5/2/2018 6:01 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
Paul Moore  wrote:



His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response, yes. But
are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter) seriously,
based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears that the
many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that causes a crash
in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen in the
python.org 3.x builds, if I understand the description of the issue).


I got the same impression, and indeed got no crashes in 25 tries.


I and others actually suggested it seriously in the past.  Now,
admittedly, at least IDLE seems better maintained than it used to
be -- not sure about Tkinter itself.


Serhiy continues to work on tkinter even though he now works on much 
else.  We just made an overlooked 2to3 fix last week.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Terry Reedy]

On 5/2/2018 4:51 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote:

As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257


As I report there, the 'crasher' does not crash on my Win 10 with either 
installed 3.7 or built 3.8.



https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed,


nothing about tkinter

Tkinter is broken, for both 


One can crash CPython with legal Python code.  I don't think that the 
language community should deprecate and drop CPython ;-).


Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at 
least, and no-one gives a damn.
The experience of perhaps hundred of thousands of people successfully 
writing or running tkinter-based programs says otherwise.


This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually 
interested in or are using it.


It is a testament that most people write sane code, for which tkinter 
(and Python) work well.


> If that is so

But it is not.  Tkinter is actively maintained.

> there's no use keeping it in the standard library

Ridiculous.  All you have done with this post is distract attention from 
real problems.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[MRAB]

On 2018-05-02 22:56, Josh Stephens wrote:

Hello list,

   If I may voice my opinion I would like to say that I just built an
application using Tkinter using python3. I used it because it was
included in python by default and I didn't have to using something
like PyQT or any other framework that was heavy. While I agree that
the docs can sometimes be confusing, I am not sure that it warrants
tossing it out. I am not even sure that my opinion gives much weight
but I figured I would just toss in a quick here is my vote and my
story about using Tkinter with SqlAlchemy and Py2App to build a native
Mac OS X app as of last month.

I have a few applications that use tkiner. Whilst it has its 
limitations, it's too useful to throw out.


It's a battery, not a power station, but batteries have their uses.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Skip Montanaro]

I still use it a bit, in simple contexts to be sure, but I do find it
useful. Others think so as well. I think TkAgg is probably the most
commonly used backend in Matplotlib. I wrote a single Matplotlib-using
program which plots columns from CSV files. I use it almost daily with no
problems. Again, I use the TkAgg backend by default.

So, does it have problems? Almost certainly. It seems you've encountered
some. If you want to see something change though, just screaming at the
developers is almost certainly the least productive thing you could do.

Here are some things you *could* do:

* submit some bug reports
* review patches related to the problems, assuming there are some
* write some patches for the documentation adding warnings about sketchy
bits

Skip
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev]

On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
Paul Moore  wrote:

On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
PR is more than most people will ever do.

His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response, yes. But
are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter) seriously,
based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears that the
many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that causes a crash
in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen in the
python.org 3.x builds, if I understand the description of the issue).
In 3.x, Tkinter+threads is broken too, albeit in a different way -- see 
https://bugs.python.org/issue33412 (this should've been the 2nd link in 
the initial message, sorry for the mix-up).
The 2.x bug also shows in 3.x if it's linked with a nonthreaded version 
of Tcl (dunno how rare that is, but the code still supports this setup).

I and others actually suggested it seriously in the past.  Now,
admittedly, at least IDLE seems better maintained than it used to
be -- not sure about Tkinter itself.


Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless
of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about
volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or
constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I
think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly
reasonable.

Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
apparently it can be offensive.

Confirm, never meant this as an insult.

I had to use emotional language to drive the point home that it's not 
some nitpick, it really causes people serious trouble (I lost a source 
of income, for the record).
Without the emotional impact, my message could easily be ignored as some 
noise not worth attention. This time, it's just too damn important to 
allow this possibility.


The module being abandoned and unused is truly the only explanation I 
could think of when seeing that glaring bugs have stayed unfixed for 15 
years (an infinity in IT), in an actively developed and highly used 
software.
This may be flattering for my ego, but if the module really is in any 
production use to speak of, then in all these years, with all this 
humongous user base, someone, somewhere in the world, at some point, 
should have looked into this. I don't even program in C professionally, 
yet was able to diagnose it and make a PR!


---

I'll make a PR with the doc warning as Guido suggested unless there are 
any better ideas.


Meanwhile, I'd really appreciate any response to my other message -- it 
is about actually fixing the issue, and I do need feedback to be able to 
proceed.
No need to delve all the way in and give an official authorization or 
something. I'm only looking for an opinion poll on which redesign option 
(if any) looks like the most reasonable way to proceed and/or in line 
with the big picture (the last one -- to provide a unifying vision -- is 
_the_ job of a BDFL IIRC).



Regards

Antoine.
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--
Regards,
Ivan

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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Greg Ewing]

Guido van Rossum wrote:
So what do *you* think. Do you agree with the OP that Tkinter (and hence 
IDLE) should be scrapped?


I don't have an opinion on that, but the issue of
whether tkinter should be in the stdlib has been
debated at least once before, and I took the OP as
saying "maybe we should talk about that again".

--
Greg
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Ronald Oussoren]

> On 2 May 2018, at 22:51, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev  
> wrote:
> 
> As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 
> showed, Tkinter is broken, for both Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and 
> non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at least, and no-one gives a damn.

The second issue number doesn’t refer to a Tkinter issue, the former is about a 
month old and has reactions from a core developer. That’s not “nobody cares”. 

> 
> This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually interested in 
> or are using it.

Not necessarily, it primarily reflects that CPython is volunteer-driven 
project.  This appears to be related to the interaction of Tkinter and threads, 
and requires hacking on C code.  That seriously shrinks the pool of people that 
feel qualified to work on this.

> 
> If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if 
> anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to support 
> it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the foolishness to 
> think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in the docs it is said 
> that the module is only partly functional.

Tkinter is used fairly often as an easily available GUI library and is not much 
as you imply. 

I don’t know how save calling GUI code from multiple threads is in general 
(separate from this Tkinter issue), but do know that this is definitely not 
save across platforms: at least on macOS calling GUI methods in Apple’s 
libraries from secondary threads is unsafe unless those methods are explicitly 
documented as thread-safe.

Ronald

> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> Ivan
> 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
Paul Moore  wrote:
> On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> > To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
> > analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
> > feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
> > forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
> > PR is more than most people will ever do.  
> 
> His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response, yes. But
> are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter) seriously,
> based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears that the
> many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that causes a crash
> in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen in the
> python.org 3.x builds, if I understand the description of the issue).

I and others actually suggested it seriously in the past.  Now,
admittedly, at least IDLE seems better maintained than it used to
be -- not sure about Tkinter itself.

> Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless
> of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about
> volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or
> constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I
> think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly
> reasonable.

Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
apparently it can be offensive.

Regards

Antoine.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Josh Stephens]

Hello list,

  If I may voice my opinion I would like to say that I just built an
application using Tkinter using python3. I used it because it was
included in python by default and I didn't have to using something
like PyQT or any other framework that was heavy. While I agree that
the docs can sometimes be confusing, I am not sure that it warrants
tossing it out. I am not even sure that my opinion gives much weight
but I figured I would just toss in a quick here is my vote and my
story about using Tkinter with SqlAlchemy and Py2App to build a native
Mac OS X app as of last month.

Best Regards,
Josh Stephens

On May 2, 2018 at 4:46:29 PM, Antoine Pitrou (anto...@python.org) wrote:
>
> I have no opinion about scrapping IDLE and Tkinter, but if we don't, I
> think his concerns deserve addressing instead of being dismissed by
> wielding the CoC magic wand.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
> Le 02/05/2018 à 23:41, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
> > So what do *you* think. Do you agree with the OP that Tkinter (and hence
> > IDLE) should be scrapped?
> >
> > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Antoine Pitrou > > > wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 2 May 2018 23:28:22 +0200
> > Antoine Pitrou > wrote:
> > > On Wed, 02 May 2018 21:24:07 +
> > > Brian Curtin > wrote:
> > > > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
> > > > python-dev@python.org > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257
> > and
> > > > > https://bugs.python.org/issue33316
> > showed, Tkinter is broken, for both
> > > > > Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> > > > > least, and no-one gives a damn.
> > > > >
> > > > > This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> > > > > interested in or are using it.
> > > > >
> > > > > If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> > > > > anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> > > > > support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> > > > > foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere 
> > > > > in
> > > > > the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
> > > > mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest 
> > > > reading
> > > > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
> > for some pointers on how
> > people
> > > > typically behave around here in particular.
> > >
> > > Perhaps it would be more constructive to address the OP's point than to
> > > play speech police.
> >
> > To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
> > analysis *and* a PR. It's normal to be angry when an advertised
> > feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
> > forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
> > PR is more than most people will ever do.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Antoine.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Python-Dev mailing list
> > Python-Dev@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
> >
> > Unsubscribe:
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido )
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Paul Moore]

On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
> analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
> feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
> forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
> PR is more than most people will ever do.

His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response, yes. But
are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter) seriously,
based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears that the
many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that causes a crash
in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen in the
python.org 3.x builds, if I understand the description of the issue).

I don't have an opinion on the proposed fixes to tkinter, but I
definitely don't think that dropping it is a reasonable option.

Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless
of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about
volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or
constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I
think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly
reasonable.

Paul
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 5:37 PM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

> On Wed, 2 May 2018 23:28:22 +0200
> Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> > On Wed, 02 May 2018 21:24:07 +
> > Brian Curtin  wrote:
> > > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
> > > python-dev@python.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> > > > https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for
> both
> > > > Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> > > > least, and no-one gives a damn.
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> > > > interested in or are using it.
> > > >
> > > > If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> > > > anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> > > > support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> > > > foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects --
> nowhere in
> > > > the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.
> > >
> > >
> > > For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
> > > mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest
> reading
> > > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ for some pointers on how
> people
> > > typically behave around here in particular.
> >
> > Perhaps it would be more constructive to address the OP's point than to
> > play speech police.
>
> To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
> analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
> feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
> forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
> PR is more than most people will ever do.
>

It may be normal to be angry when something doesn't work the way it should,
but analyzing and creating a PR aren't the gateway to normalizing this
behavior. Sending thousands of people this type of email isn't how it works.

To address their point: no, next topic.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Antoine Pitrou]

I have no opinion about scrapping IDLE and Tkinter, but if we don't, I
think his concerns deserve addressing instead of being dismissed by
wielding the CoC magic wand.

Regards

Antoine.


Le 02/05/2018 à 23:41, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
> So what do *you* think. Do you agree with the OP that Tkinter (and hence
> IDLE) should be scrapped?
> 
> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Antoine Pitrou  > wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 2 May 2018 23:28:22 +0200
> Antoine Pitrou > wrote:
> > On Wed, 02 May 2018 21:24:07 +
> > Brian Curtin > wrote:
> > > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
> > > python-dev@python.org > wrote:
> > >   
> > > > As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257
>  and
> > > > https://bugs.python.org/issue33316
>  showed, Tkinter is broken, for both
> > > > Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> > > > least, and no-one gives a damn.
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> > > > interested in or are using it.
> > > >
> > > > If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- 
> if
> > > > anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> > > > support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> > > > foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- 
> nowhere in
> > > > the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.    
> > > 
> > > 
> > > For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
> > > mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest 
> reading
> > > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>  for some pointers on how
> people
> > > typically behave around here in particular.  
> > 
> > Perhaps it would be more constructive to address the OP's point than to
> > play speech police.
> 
> To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
> analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
> feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
> forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
> PR is more than most people will ever do.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.
> 
> 
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Guido van Rossum]

So what do *you* think. Do you agree with the OP that Tkinter (and hence
IDLE) should be scrapped?

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

> On Wed, 2 May 2018 23:28:22 +0200
> Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> > On Wed, 02 May 2018 21:24:07 +
> > Brian Curtin  wrote:
> > > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
> > > python-dev@python.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> > > > https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for
> both
> > > > Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> > > > least, and no-one gives a damn.
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> > > > interested in or are using it.
> > > >
> > > > If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> > > > anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> > > > support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> > > > foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects --
> nowhere in
> > > > the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.
> > >
> > >
> > > For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
> > > mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest
> reading
> > > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ for some pointers on how
> people
> > > typically behave around here in particular.
> >
> > Perhaps it would be more constructive to address the OP's point than to
> > play speech police.
>
> To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
> analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
> feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
> forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
> PR is more than most people will ever do.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Wed, 2 May 2018 23:28:22 +0200
Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
> On Wed, 02 May 2018 21:24:07 +
> Brian Curtin  wrote:
> > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
> > python-dev@python.org> wrote:
> >   
> > > As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> > > https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for both
> > > Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> > > least, and no-one gives a damn.
> > >
> > > This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> > > interested in or are using it.
> > >
> > > If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> > > anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> > > support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> > > foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in
> > > the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.
> > 
> > 
> > For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
> > mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest reading
> > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ for some pointers on how people
> > typically behave around here in particular.  
> 
> Perhaps it would be more constructive to address the OP's point than to
> play speech police.

To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
PR is more than most people will ever do.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Antoine Pitrou]

On Wed, 02 May 2018 21:24:07 +
Brian Curtin  wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
> python-dev@python.org> wrote:
> 
> > As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> > https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for both
> > Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> > least, and no-one gives a damn.
> >
> > This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> > interested in or are using it.
> >
> > If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> > anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> > support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> > foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in
> > the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.  
> 
> 
> For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
> mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest reading
> https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ for some pointers on how people
> typically behave around here in particular.

Perhaps it would be more constructive to address the OP's point than to
play speech police.

Regards

Antoine.


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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Brian Curtin]

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 16:55 Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and
> https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for both
> Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at
> least, and no-one gives a damn.
>
> This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually
> interested in or are using it.
>
> If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to
> support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the
> foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in
> the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.


For the future, this is not how you communicate with the development
mailing list of any open source software project. I would suggest reading
https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ for some pointers on how people
typically behave around here in particular.

>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Guido van Rossum]

Wow. I guess your code was broken and now you seem really upset. Go punch a
bag or something, and then propose something a little more constructive,
like adding a warning to the docs. I can assure you that there are many
people using apps written using Tkinter (e.g. IDLE) and there's a mailing
list as well (tkinter-disc...@python.org).

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and https://bugs.python.org/issue3
> 3316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for both Py2 and Py3, with both threaded
> and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at least, and no-one gives a damn.
>
> This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually interested
> in or are using it.
>
> If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if
> anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to support
> it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the foolishness to
> think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in the docs it is
> said that the module is only partly functional.
>
> --
>
> Regards,
> Ivan
>
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[Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev]

As https://bugs.python.org/issue33257 and 
https://bugs.python.org/issue33316 showed, Tkinter is broken, for both 
Py2 and Py3, with both threaded and non-threaded Tcl, since 2002 at 
least, and no-one gives a damn.


This seems to be a testament that very few people are actually 
interested in or are using it.


If that's so, there's no use keeping it in the standard library -- if 
anything, because there's not enough incentive and/or resources to 
support it. And to avoid screwing people (=me) up when they have the 
foolishness to think they can rely on it in their projects -- nowhere in 
the docs it is said that the module is only partly functional.


--

Regards,
Ivan

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