[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
You missed the point of the PEP: "It becomes possible to experiment with more advanced optimizations in CPython than just micro-optimizations, like tagged pointers." IMHO it's time to stop wasting our limited developer resources on micro-optimizations and micro-benchmarks, but think about overall

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Giampaolo Rodola'
This is not about the commit message. It’s way more than that. It's been going on non-stop and got increasingly worse since at least the preparation of the Python elections ~2 years ago. It is not normal what is going on here. People are scared. And it is pretty much guaranteed that this is not

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-29 Thread Raymond Hettinger
> On Jun 29, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: > > You missed the point of the PEP: "It becomes possible to experiment > with more advanced optimizations in CPython than just > micro-optimizations, like tagged pointers." > > IMHO it's time to stop wasting our limited developer resources

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 12:43:18 +0100 Rhodri James wrote: > On 29/06/2020 11:31, Steve Holden wrote: > > If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these > > waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find > > distasteful or offensive. I do not

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
Kind Regards, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer compileralchemy | blog github Mauritius On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:34 PM Rhodri James wrote: > On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer

[Python-Dev] Re: Lists placed into Emergency Moderation status

2020-06-29 Thread Ernest W. Durbin III
Reviewing, I may have misinterpreted the message from PSF Executive Director regarding the situation. It does appear that python-ideas moderators contacted postmaster@. Appears I misread a message saying “it looks like it’s happening on python-dev too” to mean that the request was for both

[Python-Dev] Re: Lists placed into Emergency Moderation status

2020-06-29 Thread Tim Peters
[Ernest W. Durbin III ] > Reviewing, I may have misinterpreted the message from PSF Executive > Director regarding the situation. > > It does appear that python-ideas moderators contacted postmaster@. > Appears I misread a message saying “it looks like it’s happening on > python-dev too” to mean

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here. Ah... How about you drop the condescending tone, Nathaniel? You certainly can make your point without attacking your fellow contributors. > But using a thread on >

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-29 Thread Raymond Hettinger
> On Jun 22, 2020, at 5:10 AM, Victor Stinner wrote: > > Introduce C API incompatible changes to hide implementation details. How much of the existing C extension ecosystem do you expect to break as a result of these incompatible changes? > It will be way easier to add new features. This

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622: Structural Pattern Matching

2020-06-29 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Richard Damon writes: > I wasn't imply local to the match statement, but if the match is used > inside a function, where using the binding operatior = will create a > local name, even if there is a corresponding global name that matches > (unless you use the global statement), will a match

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622: Structural Pattern Matching

2020-06-29 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Daniel. writes: > IMHO, the most obvious solution is that the bind should be available only > inside case block and if you need to change a global or a nonlocal you do > this explicitly inside the case block, Do you mean case x: x = x ? > if this is the case you can pickup a

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Inada Naoki
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:17 AM Inada Naoki wrote: > > > More aggressive idea: override current PyUnicode_EncodeXXX() apis. > Change from `Py_UNICODE *object` to `PyObject *unicode`. > This is a list of PyUnicode_Encode usage in top4000 packages.

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Steve Holden
It's broadly accepted among professional writers that the language used should be acceptable and comprehensible to the audience. This seems uncontentious. Posting a straightforward change representing a relaxation of standards (which were not in any case being enforced) should also be

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le lun. 29 juin 2020 à 12:36, Inada Naoki a écrit : > * UTF16 and UTF32; `int byteorder` parameter. * UTF-16 byte_order=0 means "UTF-16" encoding * UTF-16 byte_order<0 means "UTF-16-BE" encoding * UTF-16 byte_order>0 means "UTF-16-LE" encoding Same applies for UTF-32. > * UTF7; int

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le dim. 28 juin 2020 à 17:21, Inada Naoki a écrit : > More aggressive idea: override current PyUnicode_EncodeXXX() apis. > Change from `Py_UNICODE *object` to `PyObject *unicode`. > > This idea might look crazy. But PyUnicode_EncodeXXX APIs are > deprecated for a long time, and there are only a

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 620: Hide implementation details from the C API

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Hi Stefan, I'm interested in experimenting with a moving GC in CPython, but also by modifying the C API to make sure that it is efficient on PyPy or another Python implementation which uses a moving GC. As Carl in the other thread, currently, other Python implementations have to emulate

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le lun. 29 juin 2020 à 08:41, Inada Naoki a écrit : > That's all. > Now I think it is safe to override deprecated APIs with private APIs > accepts Unicode Object. > > * _PyUnicode_EncodeUTF7 -> PyUnicode_EncodeUTF7 Use PyUnicode_AsEncodedString("UTF-7"). This encoding is not common enough to

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden wrote: > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the > change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the > documentation clear and concise. Use of such language is certainly > regrettable, since it

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Steve Holden
Thank you. I understand the need for tolerance in such matters since opinions vary, and merely wished to voice my own. If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find distasteful or offensive. I

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le dim. 28 juin 2020 à 11:22, M.-A. Lemburg a écrit : > as you may remember, I wasn't happy with the deprecations of the > APIs in PEP 393, since there are no C API alternatives for > the encoding APIs deprecated in the PEP, which allow direct > encoding provided by these important codecs. > >

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Inada Naoki
Many existing public APIs doesn't have `const char *errors` argument. As there are very few users, we can ignore that limitation. On the other hand, some encoding have special options. * UTF16 and UTF32; `int byteorder` parameter. * UTF7; int base64SetO, int base64WhiteSpace So

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le dim. 28 juin 2020 à 04:39, Inada Naoki a écrit : > ## Documented and have Py_DEPRECATED > > * PyLong_FromUnicode > * PyUnicode_AsUnicodeCopy > * PyUnicode_Encode > * PyUnicode_EncodeUTF7 > * PyUnicode_EncodeUTF8 > * PyUnicode_EncodeUTF16 > * PyUnicode_EncodeUTF32 > *

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Rhodri James
On 29/06/2020 11:31, Steve Holden wrote: If I am being oversensitive it is perhaps because I have trodden in these waters before, and have frequently been surprised by what other people find distasteful or offensive. I do not necessarily require my opinions to be thought reasonable, even by

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Paul Sokolovsky
Hello, On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300 "Jim F.Hilliard" wrote: > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & > White connected with white supremacy? I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the word "white". > > Scanning through this

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Paul Sokolovsky
Hello, On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 5:04 AM Paul Sokolovsky > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300 > > "Jim F.Hilliard" wrote: > > > > > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is > > >

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622: Structural Pattern Matching

2020-06-29 Thread Rhodri James
On 28/06/2020 21:47, Daniel Moisset wrote: I've been going over the PEP this weekend, trying to get a deeper understanding of what are its main ideas and consequences, and wrote some notes. I'm not posting the notes directly to this list because it's a bit of a long read, but I also tried to

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Jim F.Hilliard
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:50 PM Paul Sokolovsky wrote: > > I wouldn't be surprised if the only connection between them is the word > "white". > > I would be *very* surprised. This seems very foreign to me as a European. ___ Python-Dev mailing list --

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 5:04 AM Paul Sokolovsky wrote: > > Hello, > > On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:35:08 +0300 > "Jim F.Hilliard" wrote: > > > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & > > White connected with white supremacy? > > I wouldn't be surprised if the only

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Jim F.Hilliard
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:21 PM Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > It's not Strunk and White per se, it's the idea of enforcing "standard > English", where "standard" here means "talks like a American with an > Ivy league education". > You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here. > I

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Richard Damon
On 6/29/20 6:22 AM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: > and describes the > old text as a "relic", which is another way of saying that the > problems were only there by historical accident, rather than by anyone > intentionally keeping it there. I would say that say that I have seen the term "relic" being

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622: Structural Pattern Matching

2020-06-29 Thread Rhodri James
On 27/06/2020 10:36, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Richard Damon writes: > As long as the bindings in match also make the symbol a local > (which seems reasonable) then you would get a similar restriction. It's quite different. First, it surely won't make other symbols match-local. Of course

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Victor Stinner
Le lun. 29 juin 2020 à 12:50, Inada Naoki a écrit : > > > ## PyUnicode_EncodeDecimal > > > > > > It is not documented. It has not been deprecated by Py_DEPRECATED. > > > Plan: Add Py_DEPRECATED in Python 3.9 and remove it in 3.11. > > > > I understood that the replacement function is the private

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Jim F.Hilliard
I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & White connected with white supremacy? Scanning through this thread, its wikipedia page and doing quick google search, I wasn't able to find something tangible. Best Regards, Jim Fasarakis Hilliard

[Python-Dev] Re: Plan to remove Py_UNICODE APis except PEP 623.

2020-06-29 Thread Inada Naoki
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 6:51 PM Victor Stinner wrote: > > > I understand that these ".. deprecated" markups will be added to 3.8 > and 3.9 documentation, right? > They are documented as "Deprecated since version 3.3, will be removed in version 4.0" already. I am proposing s/4.0/3.10/ in 3.8 and

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Richard Damon
On 6/29/20 7:35 AM, Jim F.Hilliard wrote: > I believe I'm not the only one with this question but, how is Strunk & > White connected with white supremacy? > > Scanning through this thread, its wikipedia page and doing quick > google search, I wasn't able to find something tangible.  > > > Best

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Giampaolo Rodola'
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden wrote: > > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the > change which are irrelevant to the stated aim, which is making the > documentation clear and concise. Use

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Rhodri James
On 29/06/2020 15:02, Paul Sokolovsky wrote: Hello, On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 06:21:36 -0700 Nathaniel Smith wrote: You all are displaying breathtakingly levels of ignorance here. [snippety snip] I'm not going to try to educate you Dude, you totally aren't going to. So please leave your

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Keara Berlin
Hi all, I didn't mean for there to be significant differences between what I posted here versus in the commit message. Sorry for any confusion around that! Thank you for putting them both in one place here - that is helpful. Take care, Keara On Sun, Jun 28, 2020, 16:12 Paul Sokolovsky wrote:

[Python-Dev] [RELEASE] mpdecimal-2.5.0

2020-06-29 Thread Stefan Krah
Hi, I've released mpdecimal-2.5.0: http://www.bytereef.org/mpdecimal/index.html 15417edc8e12a57d1d9d75fa7e3f22b158a3b98f44db9d694cfd2acde8dfa0ca mpdecimal-2.5.0.tar.gz Starting with Python 3.9, this version should be used for an external libmpdec. Python versions 3.7 and 3.8 should

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread David Mertz
The commit message is simply silly. It introduces numerous contentious and false claims that have nothing whatsoever to do with the small wording change. It misunderstands how language, culture, history, and indeed white supremacism, work. I would recommend amending the commit message. The

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Re: Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Ricky Teachey
On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 10:51 AM Giampaolo Rodola' wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:34 PM Nathaniel Smith wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:31 AM Steve Holden wrote: >> > The commit message used, however, reveals implementation details of the >> change which are irrelevant to the

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Re: Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread André Roberge
Adding my voice to those that ask for such discussions be stopped ... and, if at all possible, be snipped in the bud and prevented from occurring in the future. More below. On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:51 PM Ricky Teachey wrote: > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 10:51 AM Giampaolo Rodola' > wrote: > >>

[Python-Dev] Lists placed into Emergency Moderation status

2020-06-29 Thread Ernest W. Durbin III
At the request of the list moderators of python-ideas and python-dev, both lists have been placed into emergency moderation mode. All new posts must be approved before landing on the list. When directed by the list moderators, this moderation will be disabled. -Ernest W. Durbin III Director of

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread C. Titus Brown via Python-Dev
Hi all, as a moderator of python-ideas, I’ve asked postmaster to place python-ideas into emergency moderation. (I do not have the tools to do so myself.) I’m willing to review messages individually as needed. best, —titus > On Jun 29, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > wrote: > >

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread. It opens the gap for people who are not concerned about development jump in the game shifting the focus away while nurturing a culture of thrash I mean you tend to ignore

[Python-Dev] Re: Intended invariants for signals in CPython

2020-06-29 Thread Yonatan Zunger via Python-Dev
Whew. Nick, Antoine, and Chris, thanks to each of you for your feedback -- with it, I *think* I've managed to write a pure-Python signal suppression library. I'm nowhere near confident enough in its handling of corner cases yet to release it to the general public, but hopefully I'll be able to

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread David Mertz
Can we simply revise the commit message to something neutral like "Removed specific reference to Strunk and White in favor of generic urge for language clarity." That's all the change actually was; there's no need for the other debate or broad political background. On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:28

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Rhodri James
On 29/06/2020 17:24, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: Threads like these are meaningless, does not provide any learning value and is nowhere near the single vs double quote thread. I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more. Since the PSF has seen fit to make a political statement (re Black Lives

[Python-Dev] Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Amend PEP-8 to require clear, understandable comments instead of Strunk & White Standard English comments

2020-06-29 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
To bring this thread back to encouraging diversity, I must point out that diverse English dialects are not all there is to diversity, folks. Nathaniel Smith writes: > In particular, it emphasizes that the new text is accomplishing > "the same goal", "maintaining the original intent", That

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622: Structural Pattern Matching

2020-06-29 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Rhodri James writes: > That's the clearest explanation of why "_" needs to be treated > carefully, but I don't think it argues for the PEP's special treatment. That depends on whether you care about taking advantage of the convention that "_" is a dummy. In fact, _ = gettext partakes of

[Python-Dev] Re: Lists placed into Emergency Moderation status

2020-06-29 Thread Tim Peters
[Ernest W. Durbin III ] > At the request of the list moderators of python-ideas and python-dev, > both lists have been placed into emergency moderation mode. All > new posts must be approved before landing on the list. > > When directed by the list moderators, this moderation will be disabled. I