Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Did you say Specialized My attorneys will be contacting you shortly with a c&D letter. Cheers, David "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote: > Clearly the ironclad scientific conclusion is that that all of you have >

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

If I increase the weight in my head with more rocks will I comprehend this conversation any faster? It's spinning, so pretty sure the same forces are involved. Grin. With abandon, Patrick On Friday, January 10, 2014 2:14:00 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote: > > Clearly the ironclad scientific concl

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Clearly the ironclad scientific conclusion is that that all of you have the slowest possible wheels. If you increase the weight of your wheels, you will climb faster because the extra momentum will push you along. If you decrease the weight of your wheels, you will climb faster because lighter

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

I notice that effect a lot on the fat bike. LOTS of wheel weight there! When you hit a climb with momentum on your side, you can feel that rotating mass throwing you up the hill. It feels similar to the way a fixed gear seems to push you along as you pedal it... Steve On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 1:

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE

Both of my tandems, a Terry Osell custom (made for someone else and it never did fit me very well, way too short in the cockpit) and a Burley, were shod with 700 x 28s. Terry recommended Conts at 120 psi, which we did use with reasonably good success. No pinch flats, not noticeably uncomfortab

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE

I've had three 700C tandems, and only my current one will fit a true 40mm tire. I can't understand running a tandem with anything less, but apparently tandem purchasers have succumbed to the same marketing that accompanies single bikes. I would eventually like to get one of the new Co-Motion 29er

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE

Back in the day, tipped off that Tandems East still stocked the old, very narrow, very light, very supple 559X1" (more like 22-23 mm) Specialized Turbo tire, I called to order some, and one of the owners told me that tandem teams, looking for a speed edge, were fond of these. Barely 200 grams and s

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE

If anyone is interested, a quick google search turns up http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/rolres.html Racing motorcycle tires (or even street legal sport bike tires) have nearly nothing in common with bicycle tires. Which doesn't mean they cant both provide reduced traction when overinflated. The

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE

On Jan 5, 2014, at 12:42 PM, ted wrote: > Does anybody else remember Jobst asserting back in the early 90s that > tubulars were slower than clinchers because of the glue? I think the "... > flattening was more pronounced in tubulars than clinchers." that Tim mentions > was part of his reasoni

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Forgot to add: if you are riding a derailleur bike and wish to "honk", it is customary and polite to shift to a higher gear, perhaps even two, before you stand. One must maintain the proprieties. To be perfectly stylish, you then glance behind you at your nearest follower with a look mingled of in

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

I don't think that this statement is accurate as stated, or at least it hasn't been proved. Honking* light wheels up a hill feels very different from honking heavy wheels up a hill. I don't know what makes them feel different, and so consistently over a long period, if not something in the wheels.

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

my daughter is riding on a new 1400g wheelset, and it made a huge difference in her riding - especially tackling hills - there is no question lighter rims and tires spin up easier On Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:14:32 AM UTC-6, Tim McNamara wrote: > > Even though I don't recall specific weights be

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Even though I don't recall specific weights being previously mentioned, it's probably not perceptible. The acceleration of a bicyclist is very low to the extent that such differences are negligible. Do you notice a difference in acceleration when your water bottles are full compared to when th

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

no one here has been talking about the difference between a 230g and a 250g tire. What we're talking about is the difference between a 200g tire and 500g tire, and it is without question a perceptible difference in acceleration. On Saturday, January 4, 2014 11:52:14 AM UTC-6, Tim McNamara wr

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Here is a link to a bunch of Rivendell related articles but also includes the Bicycle Guide "blind" Mondonico steel frame test. Just called Mondotest.pdf on the site. https://sites.google.com/site/renorambler/system/app/pages/recentChanges Addison Wilhite, M.A. Academy of Arts, Careers and T

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

There was a test like that in Bicycle Guide, and it was very poorly done. There was only one tester, and he rode a bunch of bikes, each of them just once. So there was no back-to-back comparison, no going back to firm up impressions. When we did a similar test, double blind, two of our testers

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Bruce: let's hope it's not *vertically* compliant. Patrick Moore, back from a brief 11 mile ride in 62*F, sunny, and gusty Rio Rancho, NM. On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Bruce Herbitter wrote: > stiff, performance... Are we talking tires here or have some snowed in > readers seen one too man

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

I doubt ABQ is snowed in. With abandon, the other Patrick On Saturday, January 4, 2014 1:19:23 PM UTC-7, Fullylugged wrote: > > stiff, performance... Are we talking tires here or have some snowed in > readers seen one too many Cialis commercials? > > > On 1/4/2014 12:03 PM, Patrick Moore wrote

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

stiff, performance... Are we talking tires here or have some snowed in readers seen one too many Cialis commercials? On 1/4/2014 12:03 PM, Patrick Moore wrote: That's / laterally/ stiff and /vertically/ compliant. (Or is it the reverse?) On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Tim McNamara

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Here's the plan: We test our perceptive abilities after drinking wine. HOWEVER it will be a blind wine tasting. Which will affect our perception more??? -J, Snowdrunk in Philly -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

That's * laterally* stiff and *vertically* compliant. (Or is it the reverse?) On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Tim McNamara wrote: " How many time have we read reviews composed of complete nonsense like a frame being "stiff yet compliant?"" -- Burque (NM) Resumes that get interviews: http://w

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Unfortunately there is a boatload of contradictory scientific evidence about these sorts of thing. Most of the differences we think we perceive are based on the beliefs and assumptions we have about the equipment on our bikes, rather than differences we can actually perceive. The felt differen

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Bill, again, I'm telling you it's not a personal thing - it's in our wiring to recognize slight changes, especially where work is concerned. We don't feel the baseline work, what we feel is the change from the baseline work. Bike riders feel weight difference in wheels more than anything else,

[RBW] Tire Width and Performance from SCHWALBE

http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance#why Another view on tire performance. Guess they do not use the same hill that Mr. Heine uses, or the same type of testing. Charlie Petry Snow riding today in Jennersville PA -- You received this message bec

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

On 01/03/2014 01:02 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote: The difference between A and B will be the extra work the rider had to do to "spin up" the extra 200g of rolling weight. I'm saying that difference will be small. The heavier wheel is harder to spin up, but the magnitude of the difference is small

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

" It's the next subtle increment that we feel. So yes, subtle differences in wheel inertia are more significant to us than adding mass to the bike frame. " and I never once said you can't feel it. If the small difference is a big deal to you, that's perfectly fine. Do lighter wheels spin

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Ron, Great idea, let's do that. Get on the mag trainer and pedal up from 0 to 30kph over some appropriate number of seconds. Say, 10. Capture the power from your power tap hub and plot it. So far so good? That's power trace A Next put 200grams of lead weights on your rear rim, a little 25

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

we also don't feel linear - we feel logarithmic. Our eyes are tuned to very subtle differences in light. You can feel amazingly fine surface disparities with your fingernail. We become numb to the baseline spin - we're doing work but it doesn't feel like. It's the next subtle increment that

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

if riding a bike was the same effort as spinning a wheel on a workstand, there would be no cars on the road. On Friday, January 3, 2014 8:51:19 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote: > > Bill, do the same thing on a mag trainer instead of a workstand. > > On Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:43:06 PM UTC-6, Bill

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Bill, do the same thing on a mag trainer instead of a workstand. On Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:43:06 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote: > > We're talking about two components of momentum that are orders of > magnitude different from one another. Imagine a cyclist starting from a > dead stop and s

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Anton has it exactly right, on significant climbs each pedal stroke creates an acceleration and each complete rotation has two dead spots where power is not transmitted. On flats inertia masks this phenomenon but on a hill gravity magnifies it. I get numbers, in an earlier part of life I was a

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

We're talking about two components of momentum that are orders of magnitude different from one another. Imagine a cyclist starting from a dead stop and spinning up to 30kph. How much effort does it take to do that? Let's call it "a lot". He did two things: 1. He got his whole mass moving t

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

I don't know. Let's do a thought experiment. Let's assume that the wheels have a very high rotational inertia. Wouldn't that smooth out the sine wave you're talking about? The slowing down part is when rotational potential+kinetic energy gets converted to potential energy against gravity. Using

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

When you're climbing a steep grade, you're not maintaining a constant speed. If you graphed your speed over time, with time on the x-axis, you'd see something resembling a sine wave. But your speedometer may not register a change in speed because its averaging the speed over an integration in

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

where you really feel the difference - and it doesn't have to be 23mm to get a 300-g tire, nor is a 35mm tire necessarily 550g - what I said, where you really feel the difference is spinning up before you tackle that hill On Thursday, January 2, 2014 4:20:03 PM UTC-6, Michael Hechmer wrote: > >

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

My brother is well north of 200 lb, too -- not fat, but 6'2" and muscular and bigger in build than I. He has very, very, *very* good bike handling skills -- I've tried keeping up with him on fast, twisting, very bumpy, gravel downhills, mountain bikes with the usual knobbies -- and doubtless that h

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

On 01/02/2014 06:55 PM, Patrick Moore wrote: Sure you can, though I personally don't care to do so. I know several people, including my brother, who take racing bikes with 23 mm tires on fire roads. People have successfully completed the Deerfield Dirt Road Randonnee on 23mm tires. -- You

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Sure you can, though I personally don't care to do so. I know several people, including my brother, who take racing bikes with 23 mm tires on fire roads. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Christopher Chen wrote: > It's hard to say, Michael: You can't climb a fire road in 23mm tires no > matter ho

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

I have to say that, whether it be psychological or physical, I've consistently* found that my sub 18 lb gofast with very light wheels seems to let me turn the cranks more easily in a higher gear (75") on the same hills where the same cadence feels slower or seems to require more effort in a lower g

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

The biggest factor in tire performance for me *is* me. If I'm feeling good and well rested and it's a beautiful day, I'm fast on $5 worth of swap meet rubber. If I'm grinding out the drudgery after my third flat in the rain, no amount of supple and plush can ever feel fast enough. Jeff Hagedorn

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

On 01/02/2014 05:20 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote: For me, climbing is the real difference. There may or may not be a "significant" (whatever that may be) difference in accelerating a 23mm tire vs a well made 38 (e.g pari moto) and there certainly is not a difference at cruising speeds; but on a l

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

It's hard to say, Michael: You can't climb a fire road in 23mm tires no matter how quickly you accelerate. :) On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote: > For me, climbing is the real difference. There may or may not be a > "significant" (whatever that may be) difference in acceler

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

For me, climbing is the real difference. There may or may not be a "significant" (whatever that may be) difference in accelerating a 23mm tire vs a well made 38 (e.g pari moto) and there certainly is not a difference at cruising speeds; but on a long climb where every turn of the pedal is a fo

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Jan: I see analogues to the logic behind wider tires and the logic behind making that leap to dynamo lighting (which I think is something you've said before). And of course nothing I say will be particularly controversial to readers of this list, so: I want to go as fast as anyone else, but I als

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Helium filled tires! Great idea, Bill! Grinly grin. I like that too. Grin. With abandon, Patrick On Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:43:19 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote: > > People like you, Patrick, who are apt to lighten your mind with light and > playful thoughts, more than counteract the cargo.

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

People like you, Patrick, who are apt to lighten your mind with light and playful thoughts, more than counteract the cargo. I bet you hardly notice. Grinly grin. Bill On Thursday, January 2, 2014 11:37:36 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote: > > How does one like me account for rocks in the hea

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

How does one like me account for rocks in the head, which I suspect more than negates any advantages of a lighter tire? Grin. With abandon, Patrick On Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:25:11 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote: > > I agree with you that it feels that way. The math says that it's a tiny >

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

I agree with you that it feels that way. The math says that it's a tiny difference, though. For example, accelerate from 0 to 30kph. Do that with light wheels and calculate the energy it takes to get your body+bike moving that speed, and add the energy it takes to spin up those light wheels.

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

it's a little more than that - of course lighter wheels and tires accelerate more efficiently - it takes less effort to make the bike get up and go On Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:54:29 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote: > > "the lighter tire/wheel has less inertia, so it accelerates easier and > br

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

"the lighter tire/wheel has less inertia, so it accelerates easier and brakes much better - these things you can feel. " Yes, many riders agree with you that you can feel a difference. The testing has shown that you can't measure it, though. Lighter tires feel faster without actually being f

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

On Thursday, January 2, 2014 7:20:28 AM UTC-8, James Warren wrote: > > > The one time my TaiwanColnago-riding friend was intrigued by wider tires, > he got some new 700x25's right before our ride, and 1 minute after putting > them on, he found that they cleared the seatstay bridge by about 0.

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Well, that’s the thing I brought up in response to Jan, although as I have tried finding that information on the Internet I have come up blank. Maybe I am remembering it incorrectly. As I recalled it, a guy named Carl Fogel used sheets of paper on the floor and a stamp pad to create an image o

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

excuse me - Jan - I knew that On Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:48:35 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote: > > Jim has done a very good job here by comparing different widths in > essentially the same high-quality tire - there is no significant weight > difference here. > Throwing out a data point, my buddy's

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Jim has done a very good job here by comparing different widths in essentially the same high-quality tire - there is no significant weight difference here. Throwing out a data point, my buddy's Tournado on Dahon-specific 35mm Schalwalbe's rolls every bit as efficiently as my Moser on 27-rear/

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

The one time my TaiwanColnago-riding friend was intrigued by wider tires, he got some new 700x25's right before our ride, and 1 minute after putting them on, he found that they cleared the seatstay bridge by about 0.2 mm! But he otherwise likes his bike and likes to be fast and connects the fas

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Where does tire weight factor in to all this? I personally find lighter tires to be faster for the most part, whether they're 23mm or 38mm (the widths I am running on my Paul Taylor and Rivendell respectively). On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Jan Heine wrote: > Even though most RBW folks may n

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

So far no one I have ridden with has been intrigued about wider tires. Maybe I need to find people with more curiosity! :-) Your blog mentions the shorter contact patch of wider tires. A decade or so ago, one of the participants on rec.bicycles.tech made images of the contact patches of vari

Re: [RBW] Tire Width and Performance

On 01/02/2014 09:21 AM, Jan Heine wrote: If anything, it may help persuade those we meet on our rides, who look at our bikes and are intrigued by the idea of a more comfortable bike with wider tires, but are afraid they won't be able to keep up with their friends if they add 5 or 10 mm to the

[RBW] Tire Width and Performance

Even though most RBW folks may not care all that much about going fast, it's still nice to know that a wider tire doesn't roll any slower. We summarized the data in our blog here: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/tires-how-wide-is-too-wide/ If anything, it may help persuade those we mee