Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[David Johnston]

Note:  Take care that if you want to use the Shimano Bar ends on the
Sunrace body then you will want to use the special spacer that comes
with the Shimano Bar ends that fits over the square thing on the bar
end pod and has a tab on the shifter side for the shifter. The spacer
that comes with the sunrace mount looks like it will work but then the
hole and cable groove don't line up right.


On 2/15/16, Tim Wood  wrote:
> Thanks for confirming the shimanos fit on the sunrace bodies, Dave. I
> received my ultegra bar ends but haven't installed them yet. I'm planning on
> trying bar end first but am just waiting on some grip materials to arrive.
> If the bar ends don't work out It looks like i could also mount the shimanos
> in thumbie/indexed mode with the shifters mounted on the outside of the bar.
> I think I'd like this better than on top.
>
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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Thanks for confirming the shimanos fit on the sunrace bodies, Dave. I received 
my ultegra bar ends but haven't installed them yet. I'm planning on trying bar 
end first but am just waiting on some grip materials to arrive. If the bar ends 
don't work out It looks like i could also mount the shimanos in thumbie/indexed 
mode with the shifters mounted on the outside of the bar. I think I'd like this 
better than on top. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

I'm curious what shifter setup Riv shows on their bosco bar pictures. Looks 
like shimano. What is the mount and the shifter? I'm going to change out the 
brake levers to get the bolts out from under the palms of my hands. I want that 
whole area of the bars grip able. What lever do you guys like?

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Dave Johnston]

PS if you want really nice micro ratchet friction shifting try the 
microshift 9spd swapped backwards Riv style with the left on the right and 
the right on the left. The left has a nice micro ratchet. The right can be 
used with 9 clicks for the front derail or change the mode to pure 
friction.  If, in the future, you decide you want 9s index you can always 
use them as designed.

I've seen the Microshift 9s with friction option for about $85 shipped. 
Make sure you get the kind with the friction option.

You can also try to find old suntour thumb shifters and do the same but 
then you will likely only find 7s option and the ebay prices for beat up 
old shifters can be just as high.

-Dave J


On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:38:30 AM UTC-5, Dave Johnston wrote:
>
> I confirmed today for my own curiosity that Shimano bar end shifters will 
> fit on a Sunrace 9spd index thumby mount. I'm not sure it makes sense to do 
> so however as Shimano bar ends are expensive and you could just buy a 8 or 
> 9 spd index only Sun Race thumby. Or you for about the same price as 
> Shimano bar ends get a pair of Microshift 9spd thumbies with a pure 
> friction option (8 spd w friction is in the catalog but I've never seen one 
> for sale).
>
> Shimano shifters will not mount on the microshift thumby mounts. 
>
> Note that with index options you will have to mount them on top like 
> thumbshifters of old. Not on the inside like Riv does. 
>
> My plan with the Joe, when it comes, is to try it as stock, then slowly 
> replace everything but the frame and fork. 
>
> -Dave J
>
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:05:46 AM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Keith, she's doing okay but I can tell it's starting to wear on 
>> her. 2.5 weeks to go and the cast is off!  
>>
>> Sorry to rub that weather in, I use to hate when west coast people did 
>> that to me when I lived in the colder climates! I hope you guys dig out 
>> soon and you are rocking that Clem on some sweet trails!
>>
>> I'm not in a position to comment on your rear derailer theory, I'll leave 
>> that to the resident experts. 
>>
>> Cute dog El Sapo! I've taken my lab on some Clem rides and now every time 
>> I head for the garage with my helmet he tries to follow along! 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Dave Johnston]

I confirmed today for my own curiosity that Shimano bar end shifters will 
fit on a Sunrace 9spd index thumby mount. I'm not sure it makes sense to do 
so however as Shimano bar ends are expensive and you could just buy a 8 or 
9 spd index only Sun Race thumby. Or you for about the same price as 
Shimano bar ends get a pair of Microshift 9spd thumbies with a pure 
friction option (8 spd w friction is in the catalog but I've never seen one 
for sale).

Shimano shifters will not mount on the microshift thumby mounts. 

Note that with index options you will have to mount them on top like 
thumbshifters of old. Not on the inside like Riv does. 

My plan with the Joe, when it comes, is to try it as stock, then slowly 
replace everything but the frame and fork. 

-Dave J

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:05:46 AM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Thanks Keith, she's doing okay but I can tell it's starting to wear on 
> her. 2.5 weeks to go and the cast is off!  
>
> Sorry to rub that weather in, I use to hate when west coast people did 
> that to me when I lived in the colder climates! I hope you guys dig out 
> soon and you are rocking that Clem on some sweet trails!
>
> I'm not in a position to comment on your rear derailer theory, I'll leave 
> that to the resident experts. 
>
> Cute dog El Sapo! I've taken my lab on some Clem rides and now every time 
> I head for the garage with my helmet he tries to follow along! 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Thanks Keith, she's doing okay but I can tell it's starting to wear on her. 2.5 
weeks to go and the cast is off!  

Sorry to rub that weather in, I use to hate when west coast people did that to 
me when I lived in the colder climates! I hope you guys dig out soon and you 
are rocking that Clem on some sweet trails!

I'm not in a position to comment on your rear derailer theory, I'll leave that 
to the resident experts. 

Cute dog El Sapo! I've taken my lab on some Clem rides and now every time I 
head for the garage with my helmet he tries to follow along! 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

I keep shopping shifter setups and buying different tires. I was going to try 
1.5 after having 2.35's on the bike. Like posted above, Riv told me the Clem 
works best with a fat tire. I actually like the Kenda Kwick 1.75. Was told that 
the Compass tires will be a lot lighter. So I ordered up a pair in a similar 
size. I'm still getting the bike dialed in. I road both the Joe's at the shop. 
Great bikes, I'm happy with my Clem. Those Choco bars are fantastic.

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[iamkeith]

Very nice!  You're making me stir crazy, though.  

Hope your daughter is doing well, by the way.

Hey, here's a question I've been wondering:  Are the pulleys on the Altus 
derailleur floating (have some side-to-side slop)? The floating pulleys of 
the typical, older shimano derailleurs is the reason that so many odd 
shifter/derailleur combinations have worked for me.  But it seems like, as 
engineering gets more precise and group-specific, some of that flexibility 
is being engineered out of newer components.  I don't think, for instance, 
that the 10 speed mtn shimano derailleurs have any float at all, but I'd 
have to confirm.

On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 3:21:43 PM UTC-7, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 8:45:01 AM UTC-8, ian m wrote:
> > I think it's the combination of the sun race shifters and the Altus 
> derailler. I was using the same shifters with an XTR derailler and had 0 
> problems with mis shifts. As soon as I hooked up the Altus I've experienced 
> the same shifting problems as everyone else, especially under load. It's a 
> good enough derailler but the combination just doesn't work well
>
> Good real world evidence, I like it. Maybe those large pullies on the 
> Altus aren't all they're cracked up to be and exaggerated the chain line 
> and maybe they flex or twist under load?  
>
> Wanted to share some photos from yesterday's ride as the sun made a 
> spectacular appearance in the Vancouver area and when that happens you have 
> to rush out to enjoy it. I went for a nice 35km along the water and through 
> some new trails, check it out: 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[masmojo]

I have Big Bens on my Clementine,  I've used Grand Bois Hetres and Panaracers 
Col de Vie, but the Clems are made for big tires so sticking something under 
40mm would look lonely unless you also have fenders. 
These are big, heavy bikes so I really like the added volume when bumping over 
curbs,  ruts and potholes.  They are a nice compromise between a road & off 
road tire.

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[ian m]

I think it's the combination of the sun race shifters and the Altus derailler. 
I was using the same shifters with an XTR derailler and had 0 problems with mis 
shifts. As soon as I hooked up the Altus I've experienced the same shifting 
problems as everyone else, especially under load. It's a good enough derailler 
but the combination just doesn't work well

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That is as good a thesis as I have heard so far.  I switched out the sun 
race for the aforementioned power shifters, and no more ghost shifting, 
though I think the Altus, despite the cool pizza pie pulleys, is a little 
rough around the edges. I have an extremely long-winded Clem report, along 
with photos, coming shortly.

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 11:45:01 AM UTC-5, ian m wrote:
>
> I think it's the combination of the sun race shifters and the Altus 
> derailler. I was using the same shifters with an XTR derailler and had 0 
> problems with mis shifts. As soon as I hooked up the Altus I've experienced 
> the same shifting problems as everyone else, especially under load. It's a 
> good enough derailler but the combination just doesn't work well

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

I did a couple of 16 mile rides over the weekend and only had 1 bad shifting 
experience. I took care when shifting and limited the amount of shifting I did. 
It's a flat ride on a paved path. So maybe I'm getting the hang of it. I mostly 
go from one gear to another and back. Shifted most of the time with the click. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That's another theory--patience. I'm glad the issue seems to be resolving 
for you. I thought I read on a blug post that the clicks could be ignored, 
and in fact I did not pay much attention to them. Then I read on the 
catalog description page on Riv that the first 3 gears are one click and 
the rest are two, so maybe you have to get it in a click. I shifted mostly 
as though it were friction--waiting until it ran smooth and was (seemingly) 
engaged. But it would shift under pressure. Maybe because it was not 
actually in a click setting? Whatever. I don't need the at my fingertips 
shifting anyway--don't shift all that often, and I like stem shifters just 
fine. I don't want to be walking on eggshells when I am putting some 
pressure on the pedals. And the handlebars now have room for mirror and 
bell.

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 4:07:35 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>
> I did a couple of 16 mile rides over the weekend and only had 1 bad 
> shifting experience. I took care when shifting and limited the amount of 
> shifting I did. It's a flat ride on a paved path. So maybe I'm getting the 
> hang of it. I mostly go from one gear to another and back. Shifted most of 
> the time with the click. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

>
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 12:09:08 AM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:  
> Those stem shifters that you are holding up against the stem?  You are 
> holding them up backwards.  Turn them around the right way and you'll see 
> they won't interfere.
>

Unfortunately, though I would like it to be the case,  it is not. And 
without moving the stems, or seeing a photo where they are not parallel, it 
would be easy to assume that they go the other way, but the shifters are 
oriented correctly in the photos I posted above. (See photos below. 
Remember the part where I said I have installed shifters before?;^)

As for "perfectly lined up", I'm not sure what that means. In my 
experience, unless a frame or der. mech is bent, setting up a friction 
shift system is a pretty straightforward operation having to do with cable 
tension.

That said, in my case there may be one wild card--my original Clem was 
damaged in shipping and had to be returned. I took off all the parts and 
re-installed. (I took the entire bar with brakes and shifters off, simply 
re-hooked up all the cables.) Aside from now having a complete build that 
sports the fancy cream details, I suppose there is a possibility the rear 
derailleur was damaged (the frame damage was in the rear triangle). 
However, I discounted that because it actually shifts into all the gears, 
and rides there okay for a bit. And also, a number of other RBW list 
members have been reporting a similar experience. However, because I would 
like to keep this setup, and I happen to have a brand new Altus "in stock," 
for a future project, I may do a quick switch and see if that makes a 
difference. 




 



 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

"Haptic" -- great word that I didn't know.



> On Feb 2, 2016, at 9:54 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
>> On 02/02/2016 09:14 PM, Tim Wood wrote:
>> Now this may offend some, and call me new school, but I don't really 
>> understand the benefit of friction shifting in the rear. What is the point 
>> of being able to trim the rear derailer? it's either in line or not in line 
>> and when it's not in line it runs like crap.  I know it's all personal 
>> preference and no one way is the right way, but I'll take a well tuned index 
>> system any day. I don't want to have to think about or customize rear 
>> derailer alignment. Front shifting on the other hand I love having the 
>> ability to smoothly move the derailer along its plane to prevent chain rub.
> Benefits:
>
> 1) it's difficult if not outright impossible to find new 7 speed indexing 
> shifters these days, but 7 speed setups are very good. Ratios are excellent, 
> parts are very durable and they're cheap.  If you want to run 7 speed, 
> friction shifting is an excellent option, and perhaps your only choice.
>
> 2) You can run pretty much any derailleurs you like.  Fancy running 
> Campagnolo?  Sure, why not.
>
> 3) It's a skill.  There's a certain amount of pleasure in exercising that 
> skill and keeping it current.
>
> 4) Even besides the skill, there's a certain haptic pleasure in using at 
> least some friction shifters.  I find using the Sun Tour Sprint/Silver 
> shifter set up as a barcon positively delightful.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

"Unfortunately, though I would like it to be the case,  it is not. And 
without moving the stems, or seeing a photo where they are not parallel, it 
would be easy to assume that they go the other way, but the shifters are 
oriented correctly in the photos I posted above. (See photos below. 
Remember the part where I said I have installed shifters before?;^)"

My apologies.  I was unaware that Suntour made different models in 
different orientations.  I was only familiar with the bikes I assembled at 
the bike shop in the mid 1980s.  All of those had that single phillips head 
screw that tightens the clamp facing the rider.  The way you have it, it's 
flipped around, facing down the road.  Googling "suntour stem shifters" you 
can see examples of both orientations.  Most of them are the way I'm 
familiar with, but undoubtedly some are flipped around, like yours.  That's 
why it looks backwards to me.  I can't think of a reason why Suntour would 
make some models with the clamp one way and other models with the clamp 
flipped around.  Maybe the clamp part is symmetric and you can remove the 
shifters+flip the clamp+ put the shifters back on.  

"As for "perfectly lined up", I'm not sure what that means. In my 
experience, unless a frame or der. mech is bent, setting up a friction 
shift system is a pretty straightforward operation having to do with cable 
tension."

What I mean by "perfectly lined up" is that you are an experienced rider.  
You know how to shift.  You know when you've shifted correctly to the right 
gear.  If the shifter fails to hold the derailer in that position by 
slipping or drifting, then the shifter should be fixed or replaced.  If on 
the other hand, the shifter succeeds in holding the derailer in the correct 
position, but you still get grinding or skipping or other drivetrain noise, 
then you've got a drivetrain problem.  Steve correctly pointed out to look 
for a stiff link in your chain, which would cause a clunk and a skip every 
three or four pedal revolutions.  If there's a hanging chain pin sticking 
out from the factory or from your rebuild, that could also skip and clunk 
as it comes around.  Something isn't right.  The symptoms are 
unacceptable.  You do everything right from a rider's perspective as a very 
experienced and your bike doesn't work.  I'd be happy to diagnose it for 
you, but I think you are in the East and I'm in Calfornia.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 4:35:40 AM UTC-8, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 12:09:08 AM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:  
>> Those stem shifters that you are holding up against the stem?  You are 
>> holding them up backwards.  Turn them around the right way and you'll see 
>> they won't interfere.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, though I would like it to be the case,  it is not. And 
> without moving the stems, or seeing a photo where they are not parallel, it 
> would be easy to assume that they go the other way, but the shifters are 
> oriented correctly in the photos I posted above. (See photos below. 
> Remember the part where I said I have installed shifters before?;^)
>
> As for "perfectly lined up", I'm not sure what that means. In my 
> experience, unless a frame or der. mech is bent, setting up a friction 
> shift system is a pretty straightforward operation having to do with cable 
> tension.
>
> That said, in my case there may be one wild card--my original Clem was 
> damaged in shipping and had to be returned. I took off all the parts and 
> re-installed. (I took the entire bar with brakes and shifters off, simply 
> re-hooked up all the cables.) Aside from now having a complete build that 
> sports the fancy cream details, I suppose there is a possibility the rear 
> derailleur was damaged (the frame damage was in the rear triangle). 
> However, I discounted that because it actually shifts into all the gears, 
> and rides there okay for a bit. And also, a number of other RBW list 
> members have been reporting a similar experience. However, because I would 
> like to keep this setup, and I happen to have a brand new Altus "in stock," 
> for a future project, I may do a quick switch and see if that makes a 
> difference. 
>
>
>
>
> 
>  
> 
>
>
> 
>  
> 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

Bill, thank you for the breakdown. My points of comparison are very limited, 
mainly 5-6 speed shifters on 80's mountain bikes. So I really appreciate the 
time you took to explain the Clem setup. I'm not going to change to a barcon. I 
like the set up how it is. l will look at the other options you suggested. 

It is a great bike. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

The Suntour Way, think of every possible combination for a bike part, then 
present them to the chairman: "Make all of them."

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

"My apologies.  I was unaware that Suntour made different models in 
different orientations."

Sure enough.  I did a little more research and Suntour did in fact 
manufacture them both ways, and the housing stops are inextricably part of 
the clamp, so they are not reversible.  Bummer

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

>
> I'm still searching for the perfect 650b Clem tires. Saw someone call 
> themselves the Emelda Marcos of bike tires and I could easily go that 
> direction. I'm back to thinking something in the 38-40 range but nicer than 
> the stock Kendra's. Compass, Kojack, Pari Moto? Anything you reccomend for 
> paved trail.


I've tried Soma's New Xpress (38mm) which were my daily tires for 8 or 9 
months of paved commuting, and the Compass Switchback Hill standards (48mm) 
on my Clem. The Somas are fast and cushy enough for sure, and that Hypertex 
stuff proved really good at flat resistance. The only flat I had the entire 
time with them was when I hit a submerged pothole and exploded a tube. The 
tire was just fine. They don't corner the best though. I have one twistier 
paved trail I ride a lot along a creek that's often damp and covered in 
small sticks and such, and they're not the most confidence inspiring 
through some stretches. The Compass tires are excellent. Equally as fast, 
notably cushier. And the cornering between that tread design and fatness is 
among the best I've ever felt in my admittedly limited tire experience. 
Hardy they ain't though, I've already has two flats from small glass shards 
the Somas apparently ignored, since they were all on the same routes and I 
promise they don't get swept off often. I was running them with some 
rhinodillo liners before the snow came, and while I'm sure some are balking 
at the notion, they didn't ride notably differently with the liners. I've 
also never had the problems some have with liners though, and back when I 
switched to full-time commuting they ended up being a real life saver one 
week when I'd already had 4 flats and couldn't afford the Gatorskins the 
LBS recommended. So, anyway, I'm the sorta weirdo who put tire liners in 
Compass tires, but I swear it works pretty well. They still ride better 
than the Somas, and the Somas were what finally got me to just swear off 
cheaper block profile tires entirely. They were revelationary for me, and 
the Compass are that much better. I am curious how some of the new Schwalbe 
options are though, the Marathon Supreme looks more like my sorta bag than 
their other tires I've used have been, though, I also have tire liners in 
Schwalbes with "puncture resistant" strips because I got main tread 
punctures anyway, so, they might have to have some unexpectedly nice rides 
before I go back that way just for the durability over other options.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

I'm still searching for the perfect 650b Clem tires. Saw someone call 
themselves the Emelda Marcos of bike tires and I could easily go that 
direction. I'm back to thinking something in the 38-40 range but nicer than the 
stock Kendra's. Compass, Kojack, Pari Moto? Anything you reccomend for paved 
trail.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

Definitely add the Soma New Xpress to your list to look at, then. Made by 
Panaracer with their Palsea tread, gumwalls. They're pretty darn light for 
tough tires, and the kevlar alternative casing rode better than any 
Schwalbe I have tried and was definitely not prone to picking up flats. 
They're 38mms, and I wish they came in bigger sizes (I'm right about there 
with you in weight, more with my Clem loaded up as it usually is, but I got 
25mm rims so, fatter makes more sense on mine anyway).

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 1:36:59 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>
> I don't encounter much road debris. Some thorns, I did get a flat on a Big 
> Apple on one bike. I have the marathon supremes on 2 other bikes and they 
> have never flatted. The Big Apples roll better. Cushier. Since my 52 Clem 
> has 18mm wide rim I didn't want to go too wide of a tire. I weigh 190, and 
> 1 1/2, 38 should be OK. There is a Schwalbe Almotion coming out that 
> interests me, It's a 2" tire. I rode the Big Ones a couple of times. They 
> were fast as hell and light. I'm looking to get something more durable that 
> will be light and fast in a narrower tire.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

I don't encounter much road debris. Some thorns, I did get a flat on a Big 
Apple on one bike. I have the marathon supremes on 2 other bikes and they have 
never flatted. The Big Apples roll better. Cushier. Since my 52 Clem has 18mm 
wide rim I didn't want to go too wide of a tire. I weigh 190, and 1 1/2, 38 
should be OK. There is a Schwalbe Almotion coming out that interests me, It's a 
2" tire. I rode the Big Ones a couple of times. They were fast as hell and 
light. I'm looking to get something more durable that will be light and fast in 
a narrower tire.  

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Jim D Massachusetts]

Kai I want to see a picture of that monster Clem.   
  Jim (clem lover)   D.In Massachusetts

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 5:16:56 PM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:
>
> I'm with Bill. I find the clicks slightly annoying, but all in all it's 
> been a great shifter. I'd buy them all up, like Bill, but like Bill I've 
> got another set coming on my soon to be new monster Clem.
> 103 mattresses up
> -Kai
> Brooklyn NY 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

Hey Bill, just for my own clarification, these Clem shifters have "click" 
indexed stops. My understating of friction shifters is that they are without 
the indexing click stops. 

So what happens is that the shifter wants to find the click, the index point 
and rest there. But that's not the right place so you have to pass it and come 
back or find a intermediate spot. You'll see soon enough what we're talking 
about especially if you are riding hills.  

 there are plain friction and 8 speed indexed shifters available. I can't 
figure out why Riv went this way? Can you?

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Kainalu]

Me too! All's I know is it likely won't have a second top tube, and it'll be 
painted a green of some sort. Hopefully I don't know until I open the box in 
May/June/July/ish. Surprise is usually often occasionally happy, right?
-Kai
Brooklyn NY 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

El Sapo wrote: *"I can't figure out why Riv went this way? Can you?"*

I suspect because A. they are ergonomically pretty sweet the way Riv has 
'em set up--they have that little dog leg that makes it work without really 
having to move your hand from the grip one bit, just wiggle that thumb.B. 
they are not your average bear. C. they probably got them at a pretty sweet 
price.

Bill L. wrote: *"They are friction shifters.  If I get a ghost shift I 
didn't do it right.  Friction shifting isn't for everyone."*  I mentioned 
in a previous post on this thread that most of my bicycles are set up with 
friction shifting of one sort or another. While I am not a pro level 
mechanic,  I have set up many bikes with friction. Though in fact I did not 
set these up--I got the complete build direct from Riv. 

I rode the bike to work and back today (been taking the Big Dummy because 
it has a more robust lighting system) and again plagued with ghost 
shifting. After some force on the pedals, it will ghost shift. Sometimes 
not until you ease off a bit, three or four crank revolutions later. Weird.

I have checked all the usual things one checks when this problem 
occurs--tightening down the ratchet mech, making sure there is not too much 
slack in the cable, checking that the wire is not getting snagged or 
otherwise hung up on the bb guide, making sure there is a gentle bend to 
the housing going to the rear der. 

There may be a simple fix that I have overlooked, but because I am not the 
only person reporting this issue I suspect that it may be possible that at 
least some of these shifters may have trouble holding the cable tension, 
even when tightened to the max. There is definitely play in mine, though 
how or if that contributes I don't know. At least some of them must work 
fine, since I am sure Riv did test these. Maybe it is also aggravated by a 
particular riding style, though I am not doing anything overly gonzo or 
mashing the gears. I like to get out of the saddle for a rise occasionally 
rather than shift, but I am pretty smooth about it.

I am not one to expect perfection in my bicycles, but this is kind of 
maddening and a little disappointing. It's disconcerting riding along 
nicely but always anticipating a crunchy, grindy, skippy ghost shift. And 
when riding in traffic it can be downright unnerving. 



On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 5:13:41 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>
> Hey Bill, just for my own clarification, these Clem shifters have "click" 
> indexed stops. My understating of friction shifters is that they are 
> without the indexing click stops. 
>
> So what happens is that the shifter wants to find the click, the index 
> point and rest there. But that's not the right place so you have to pass it 
> and come back or find a intermediate spot. You'll see soon enough what 
> we're talking about especially if you are riding hills.  
>
>  there are plain friction and 8 speed indexed shifters available. I can't 
> figure out why Riv went this way? Can you?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

El Sapo

I have one Sun Race shifter here on my desk.  I have them installed on two 
bikes and I have an extra pair from my parts box.  Since I anticipated 
there might be some of the dissatisfied who would assert "these are not 
friction shifters", I decided to bring one to work with me.  

In the thumb-push direction, the shifter pulls the cable.  In that 
direction there are...count them18 total clicks for the full range of 
travel.  The full range of travel is less that 180 degrees.  So I'll call 
it something like 8 degrees per click.  Each 'click' pulls approximately 
1.4mm of cable.  When pulling cable you can either shift to the next click 
or don't shift to the next click.  In that direction only, it is not a 
friction shifter, it is a ratcheting shifter.  To the dissatisfied, the 
ratchet clicks are too large.  A Silver shifter by comparison is identical, 
except the ratchet clicks are even smaller.  

In the pull-the-shifter-direction, the shifter releases cable.  In that 
direction there are no clicks whatsoever.  It is a perfectly smooth 
continuous friction shifter.  

So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it shift, 
and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me grew up 
shifting bicycles back when every shift (every single shift) in the pull 
the cable direction required you to overshift and release.  It's second 
nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it on every shift, but I know 
how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me from being able to put the 
derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  My job is to put the derailleur 
exactly where it needs to be.  The shifter's job is to not prevent me from 
doing my job.  I use these shifters (including on hills) and I know how to 
use them and I like them.  

To you and to anyone that doesn't like their shifters, just switch them 
out.  Just because I like the SunRace shifters does not mean you have to 
like them.  Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean I have to 
hate them, too.  If you decide to spend $100 on Shimano 8-speed indexed 
barcons, I'm here to offset some of the cost for you.  If Rivendell's 
choice in spec-ing the Clem is one you disagree with, fix it.  It's a 
lovely bike and you deserve to like it.  

I think Riv is in love with these shifters because they do their job as 
shifters in that they do not prevent the user from putting the derailleur 
in the right spot, AND they are very flexible in terms of allowing you to 
modify the cable housing exit path relative to where you have decided to 
mount them.  The base piece that stops the housing is itself positionable 
in several positions, so you can direct where the housing is going to go. 
 This helps when setting up with a handlebar bag or front basket.  They 
love the versatility.  One universal shifter that works with 8sp or 9sp, 
and works with several mounting positions on several Rivendell handlebars. 
 It's a good choice for them.  

The IRD power ratchet shifters have smaller clicks in the pull-the-cable 
direction, and might satisfy those who cannot be bothered to correct 
overshifts with a small pull.  I use powerratchet shifters on several 
bikes.  The IRDs are about $100.  Plop some silvers on your SunRace bases 
and you'll have your own power ratchet thumbshifters.  I'd still take your 
SunRace shifters off you, because they also make nice barcons.  Indexed 
shifters are nice, too.  Shimano 8-speed barcons are getting scarce, but 
you can still get them, also for about $100, and you can also mount them on 
your SunRace base.  Ironically the only thing I've found that does NOT fit 
on the SunRace thumbie base is a SunRace downtube shifter.  Haha!

Most importantly, I think, is that if your mind is made up about disliking 
an aspect of your bike, then change your bike so you will like it better. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA



On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 2:13:41 PM UTC-8, El Sapo wrote:
>
> Hey Bill, just for my own clarification, these Clem shifters have "click" 
> indexed stops. My understating of friction shifters is that they are 
> without the indexing click stops. 
>
> So what happens is that the shifter wants to find the click, the index 
> point and rest there. But that's not the right place so you have to pass it 
> and come back or find a intermediate spot. You'll see soon enough what 
> we're talking about especially if you are riding hills.  
>
>  there are plain friction and 8 speed indexed shifters available. I can't 
> figure out why Riv went this way? Can you?
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

Eric

Yes, Clem shifters are different from those.  They actively click in the 
pull-the-cable direction, and I wouldn't call it soft.  Each click is quite 
a bit smaller than an indexed shifter and a lot larger (coarser) than a 
power ratchet shifter.  The materials and durability of the Clem shifter is 
a lot nicer than the ones you linked, but the one you linked is a really 
low cost alternative for those who dislike their Clem shifters.  When I've 
used those (the inexpensive ones you linked), I've found they only hold 
position if the return spring on the derailleur is really weak (a.k.a. 
Light Action).  Strong return springs, like vintage 70s or 80s derailleurs 
are too strong for those shifters and they'd drift.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-8, Eric Daume wrote:
>
> Are the Clem shifters different than these?
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Sunrace-SLM10-Friction-Shifter-Set/dp/B007QMJH86/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1454457129=8-1=sunrace+shifter
>
> I have a pair of these, and they have a power ratchet type action. Very 
> nice to use with friction shifting. But it sounds like the Clem shifters 
> have a soft indent, like running old Suntour thumbies in friction mode. I 
> didn't care for that mode.
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> El Sapo
>>
>> I have one Sun Race shifter here on my desk.  I have them installed on 
>> two bikes and I have an extra pair from my parts box.  Since I anticipated 
>> there might be some of the dissatisfied who would assert "these are not 
>> friction shifters", I decided to bring one to work with me.  
>>
>> In the thumb-push direction, the shifter pulls the cable.  In that 
>> direction there are...count them18 total clicks for the full range of 
>> travel.  The full range of travel is less that 180 degrees.  So I'll call 
>> it something like 8 degrees per click.  Each 'click' pulls approximately 
>> 1.4mm of cable.  When pulling cable you can either shift to the next click 
>> or don't shift to the next click.  In that direction only, it is not a 
>> friction shifter, it is a ratcheting shifter.  To the dissatisfied, the 
>> ratchet clicks are too large.  A Silver shifter by comparison is identical, 
>> except the ratchet clicks are even smaller.  
>>
>> In the pull-the-shifter-direction, the shifter releases cable.  In that 
>> direction there are no clicks whatsoever.  It is a perfectly smooth 
>> continuous friction shifter.  
>>
>> So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it shift, 
>> and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me grew up 
>> shifting bicycles back when every shift (every single shift) in the pull 
>> the cable direction required you to overshift and release.  It's second 
>> nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it on every shift, but I know 
>> how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me from being able to put the 
>> derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  My job is to put the derailleur 
>> exactly where it needs to be.  The shifter's job is to not prevent me from 
>> doing my job.  I use these shifters (including on hills) and I know how to 
>> use them and I like them.  
>>
>> To you and to anyone that doesn't like their shifters, just switch them 
>> out.  Just because I like the SunRace shifters does not mean you have to 
>> like them.  Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean I have to 
>> hate them, too.  If you decide to spend $100 on Shimano 8-speed indexed 
>> barcons, I'm here to offset some of the cost for you.  If Rivendell's 
>> choice in spec-ing the Clem is one you disagree with, fix it.  It's a 
>> lovely bike and you deserve to like it.  
>>
>> I think Riv is in love with these shifters because they do their job as 
>> shifters in that they do not prevent the user from putting the derailleur 
>> in the right spot, AND they are very flexible in terms of allowing you to 
>> modify the cable housing exit path relative to where you have decided to 
>> mount them.  The base piece that stops the housing is itself positionable 
>> in several positions, so you can direct where the housing is going to go.  
>> This helps when setting up with a handlebar bag or front basket.  They love 
>> the versatility.  One universal shifter that works with 8sp or 9sp, and 
>> works with several mounting positions on several Rivendell handlebars.  
>> It's a good choice for them.  
>>
>> The IRD power ratchet shifters have smaller clicks in the pull-the-cable 
>> direction, and might satisfy those who cannot be bothered to correct 
>> overshifts with a small pull.  I use powerratchet shifters on several 
>> bikes.  The IRDs are about $100.  Plop some silvers on your SunRace bases 
>> and you'll have your own power ratchet thumbshifters.  I'd still take your 
>> SunRace shifters off you, because they also make nice barcons.  Indexed 
>> shifters are nice, too.  Shimano 8-speed barcons are 

Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I bought two sets of the "cheap" shifters from Riv and they convinced me to 
go back to indexed shifting.  The rear would ghost shift on a regular 
basis. Very annoying and not something I'll put up with. If indexing means 
I have to pay to get it readjusted (I am completely incapable of doing 
it...no matter how many videos I watch and how much I practice) once or 
twice a years, so be it.  



On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 6:13:24 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Eric
>
> Yes, Clem shifters are different from those.  They actively click in the 
> pull-the-cable direction, and I wouldn't call it soft.  Each click is quite 
> a bit smaller than an indexed shifter and a lot larger (coarser) than a 
> power ratchet shifter.  The materials and durability of the Clem shifter is 
> a lot nicer than the ones you linked, but the one you linked is a really 
> low cost alternative for those who dislike their Clem shifters.  When I've 
> used those (the inexpensive ones you linked), I've found they only hold 
> position if the return spring on the derailleur is really weak (a.k.a. 
> Light Action).  Strong return springs, like vintage 70s or 80s derailleurs 
> are too strong for those shifters and they'd drift.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 3:53:57 PM UTC-8, Eric Daume wrote:
>>
>> Are the Clem shifters different than these?
>>
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Sunrace-SLM10-Friction-Shifter-Set/dp/B007QMJH86/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1454457129=8-1=sunrace+shifter
>>
>> I have a pair of these, and they have a power ratchet type action. Very 
>> nice to use with friction shifting. But it sounds like the Clem shifters 
>> have a soft indent, like running old Suntour thumbies in friction mode. I 
>> didn't care for that mode.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> El Sapo
>>>
>>> I have one Sun Race shifter here on my desk.  I have them installed on 
>>> two bikes and I have an extra pair from my parts box.  Since I anticipated 
>>> there might be some of the dissatisfied who would assert "these are not 
>>> friction shifters", I decided to bring one to work with me.  
>>>
>>> In the thumb-push direction, the shifter pulls the cable.  In that 
>>> direction there are...count them18 total clicks for the full range of 
>>> travel.  The full range of travel is less that 180 degrees.  So I'll call 
>>> it something like 8 degrees per click.  Each 'click' pulls approximately 
>>> 1.4mm of cable.  When pulling cable you can either shift to the next click 
>>> or don't shift to the next click.  In that direction only, it is not a 
>>> friction shifter, it is a ratcheting shifter.  To the dissatisfied, the 
>>> ratchet clicks are too large.  A Silver shifter by comparison is identical, 
>>> except the ratchet clicks are even smaller.  
>>>
>>> In the pull-the-shifter-direction, the shifter releases cable.  In that 
>>> direction there are no clicks whatsoever.  It is a perfectly smooth 
>>> continuous friction shifter.  
>>>
>>> So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it shift, 
>>> and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me grew up 
>>> shifting bicycles back when every shift (every single shift) in the pull 
>>> the cable direction required you to overshift and release.  It's second 
>>> nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it on every shift, but I know 
>>> how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me from being able to put the 
>>> derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  My job is to put the derailleur 
>>> exactly where it needs to be.  The shifter's job is to not prevent me from 
>>> doing my job.  I use these shifters (including on hills) and I know how to 
>>> use them and I like them.  
>>>
>>> To you and to anyone that doesn't like their shifters, just switch them 
>>> out.  Just because I like the SunRace shifters does not mean you have to 
>>> like them.  Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean I have to 
>>> hate them, too.  If you decide to spend $100 on Shimano 8-speed indexed 
>>> barcons, I'm here to offset some of the cost for you.  If Rivendell's 
>>> choice in spec-ing the Clem is one you disagree with, fix it.  It's a 
>>> lovely bike and you deserve to like it.  
>>>
>>> I think Riv is in love with these shifters because they do their job as 
>>> shifters in that they do not prevent the user from putting the derailleur 
>>> in the right spot, AND they are very flexible in terms of allowing you to 
>>> modify the cable housing exit path relative to where you have decided to 
>>> mount them.  The base piece that stops the housing is itself positionable 
>>> in several positions, so you can direct where the housing is going to go.  
>>> This helps when setting up with a handlebar bag or front basket.  They love 
>>> the versatility.  One universal shifter that works with 8sp or 9sp, and 
>>> works with several mounting positions on several Rivendell 

Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Eric Daume]

Are the Clem shifters different than these?

http://www.amazon.com/Sunrace-SLM10-Friction-Shifter-Set/dp/B007QMJH86/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1454457129=8-1=sunrace+shifter

I have a pair of these, and they have a power ratchet type action. Very
nice to use with friction shifting. But it sounds like the Clem shifters
have a soft indent, like running old Suntour thumbies in friction mode. I
didn't care for that mode.

Eric


On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> El Sapo
>
> I have one Sun Race shifter here on my desk.  I have them installed on two
> bikes and I have an extra pair from my parts box.  Since I anticipated
> there might be some of the dissatisfied who would assert "these are not
> friction shifters", I decided to bring one to work with me.
>
> In the thumb-push direction, the shifter pulls the cable.  In that
> direction there are...count them18 total clicks for the full range of
> travel.  The full range of travel is less that 180 degrees.  So I'll call
> it something like 8 degrees per click.  Each 'click' pulls approximately
> 1.4mm of cable.  When pulling cable you can either shift to the next click
> or don't shift to the next click.  In that direction only, it is not a
> friction shifter, it is a ratcheting shifter.  To the dissatisfied, the
> ratchet clicks are too large.  A Silver shifter by comparison is identical,
> except the ratchet clicks are even smaller.
>
> In the pull-the-shifter-direction, the shifter releases cable.  In that
> direction there are no clicks whatsoever.  It is a perfectly smooth
> continuous friction shifter.
>
> So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it shift,
> and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me grew up
> shifting bicycles back when every shift (every single shift) in the pull
> the cable direction required you to overshift and release.  It's second
> nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it on every shift, but I know
> how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me from being able to put the
> derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  My job is to put the derailleur
> exactly where it needs to be.  The shifter's job is to not prevent me from
> doing my job.  I use these shifters (including on hills) and I know how to
> use them and I like them.
>
> To you and to anyone that doesn't like their shifters, just switch them
> out.  Just because I like the SunRace shifters does not mean you have to
> like them.  Just because you don't like them, it doesn't mean I have to
> hate them, too.  If you decide to spend $100 on Shimano 8-speed indexed
> barcons, I'm here to offset some of the cost for you.  If Rivendell's
> choice in spec-ing the Clem is one you disagree with, fix it.  It's a
> lovely bike and you deserve to like it.
>
> I think Riv is in love with these shifters because they do their job as
> shifters in that they do not prevent the user from putting the derailleur
> in the right spot, AND they are very flexible in terms of allowing you to
> modify the cable housing exit path relative to where you have decided to
> mount them.  The base piece that stops the housing is itself positionable
> in several positions, so you can direct where the housing is going to go.
> This helps when setting up with a handlebar bag or front basket.  They love
> the versatility.  One universal shifter that works with 8sp or 9sp, and
> works with several mounting positions on several Rivendell handlebars.
> It's a good choice for them.
>
> The IRD power ratchet shifters have smaller clicks in the pull-the-cable
> direction, and might satisfy those who cannot be bothered to correct
> overshifts with a small pull.  I use powerratchet shifters on several
> bikes.  The IRDs are about $100.  Plop some silvers on your SunRace bases
> and you'll have your own power ratchet thumbshifters.  I'd still take your
> SunRace shifters off you, because they also make nice barcons.  Indexed
> shifters are nice, too.  Shimano 8-speed barcons are getting scarce, but
> you can still get them, also for about $100, and you can also mount them on
> your SunRace base.  Ironically the only thing I've found that does NOT fit
> on the SunRace thumbie base is a SunRace downtube shifter.  Haha!
>
> Most importantly, I think, is that if your mind is made up about disliking
> an aspect of your bike, then change your bike so you will like it better.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 2:13:41 PM UTC-8, El Sapo wrote:
>>
>> Hey Bill, just for my own clarification, these Clem shifters have "click"
>> indexed stops. My understating of friction shifters is that they are
>> without the indexing click stops.
>>
>> So what happens is that the shifter wants to find the click, the index
>> point and rest there. But that's not the right place so you have to pass it
>> and come back or find a intermediate spot. You'll see soon enough what
>> we're talking about especially if you are riding 

[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

I believe these one-at-a-time shifters arrived when GP was leaning towards 
complete builds without a fd, thus the need for one shifter without breaking up 
Silver or Shimano sets. Once that train got rollin' down the track...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

Ooh, those stem shifters are purty. I have an old Simplex set I bought just 
'cause I liked them. 2 years later they still haven't made it to a bike. Oops!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Just to clarify one user's perspective--I have lots of experience with 
non-STI shifters: ratcheting shifters, smooth shifters, thumb shifters, 
Positron shifters, indexed, non-indexed. I toured Tuscany with bar ends 
hooked up to a ten-speed cassette no problem. When I had a motor vehicle, 
it was manual. I know how to shift. I like to shift. I prefer friction 
shifting. I understand the very simple mechanics involved, and I have 
installed and repaired shifters. The clicks on these are not an issue for 
me. The issue is that, as delivered from Riv, and as experienced by me, and 
despite various adjustments, something appears to be causing the particular 
shifters that are on my Clem to not hold the cable in tension at some 
point, causing unwanted shifts. Is it user error? I don't rule it out. I 
made a mistake once. But others are having the very same issue, which makes 
me think:

A. There may be some factor involving how these shifters must be set up 
that we all are doing wrong the same way. 

B.Maybe I am doing one silly little thing incorrectly, despite my 
troubleshooting.

C. Maybe some of these shifters are defective, and cannot keep the cable in 
proper tension under certain conditions.


Of course I understand that, if I don't like it, I can change them out. I 
really don't need guidance for that decision, though. I think the idea of a 
query like this on the forum is more to see if somebody out there has a 
suggestion, or had a similar problem and fixed it by doing x, or y. Because 
other than the fact that they are not working all that well, I like them 
okay, and they are part of the bicycle I just paid a bunch of money for. To 
keep insisting that it must be user error, or friction is not for everyone 
(but it's great for me!) is not all that helpful, even if it turns out to 
be the case. I mean, it's friction shifting a bicycle, not trying to parse 
Sarah Palin 
.

Meanwhile, back in the lab, I am pondering several solutions, including a 
swanky set of vintage SunTour stem mounted power shifters that I just dug 
up out of my parts cabinet.

 



My only concern is will these things clear the "V" in the Bullmoose? I 
might need to raise the bar a bit or try some other tweak. Also need to do 
some de-rustification.

Mark "not shiftless since about 1971" in Beacon


> On 02/02/2016 06:06 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it shift, 
> and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me grew up 
> shifting bicycles back when *every shift (every single shift) in the pull 
> the cable direction required you to overshift and release.*  It's second 
> nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it on every shift, but I know 
> how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me from being able to put the 
> derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  My job is to put the derailleur 
> exactly where it needs to be.  The shifter's job is to not prevent me from 
> doing my job.  I use these shifters (including on hills) and I know how to 
> use them and I like them.  
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes on all points.  Campy of the mid 80s taught a lot of us to overshift + 
release.  And yes, it's a course ratchet.  



On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 7:36:22 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 02/02/2016 06:06 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it shift, 
> and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me grew up 
> shifting bicycles back when *every shift (every single shift) in the pull 
> the cable direction required you to overshift and release.*  It's second 
> nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it on every shift, but I know 
> how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me from being able to put the 
> derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  My job is to put the derailleur 
> exactly where it needs to be.  The shifter's job is to not prevent me from 
> doing my job.  I use these shifters (including on hills) and I know how to 
> use them and I like them.  
>
>
> Campagnolo Nuovo Record, right?  That one was a later shifter and really 
> demanded overshift and release.  Some of the others, not so much.  As I 
> recall it, the early Shimano - Crane, for example - Sun Tour VGT were early 
> shifters and didn't require much if any overshift. 
>
> So this Sun Race should be thought of as a coarse ratchet?  I can see 
> where that could be rather confusing to someone with no experience with 
> ratcheting friction shifters who is expecting clicking to mean indexing.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

Mark

Without question, if you position your derailer perfectly with your 
shifters and then just ride down the road and your derailer after a while 
moves itself because your shifter allows it to move with insufficient 
friction, that's unacceptable.  The other posters on this thread who don't 
like those shifters are mostly complaining about where the clicks are in 
one direction and that those clicks unnecessarily force them to position 
their derailer incorrectly.  I think it's a totally different problem.  
That little 4mm allen bolt is the only way to increase the friction in the 
system.  If you really have cranked down on that, and the shifter is still 
failing to hold the derailer in position, then that shifter should be 
replaced and you shouldn't have to pay for it.  Friction shifters with 
insufficient friction to hold the derailer in position are useless.  

Those stem shifters that you are holding up against the stem?  You are 
holding them up backwards.  Turn them around the right way and you'll see 
they won't interfere.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 8:50:21 PM UTC-8, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Just to clarify one user's perspective--I have lots of experience with 
> non-STI shifters: ratcheting shifters, smooth shifters, thumb shifters, 
> Positron shifters, indexed, non-indexed. I toured Tuscany with bar ends 
> hooked up to a ten-speed cassette no problem. When I had a motor vehicle, 
> it was manual. I know how to shift. I like to shift. I prefer friction 
> shifting. I understand the very simple mechanics involved, and I have 
> installed and repaired shifters. The clicks on these are not an issue for 
> me. The issue is that, as delivered from Riv, and as experienced by me, and 
> despite various adjustments, something appears to be causing the particular 
> shifters that are on my Clem to not hold the cable in tension at some 
> point, causing unwanted shifts. Is it user error? I don't rule it out. I 
> made a mistake once. But others are having the very same issue, which makes 
> me think:
>
> A. There may be some factor involving how these shifters must be set up 
> that we all are doing wrong the same way. 
>
> B.Maybe I am doing one silly little thing incorrectly, despite my 
> troubleshooting.
>
> C. Maybe some of these shifters are defective, and cannot keep the cable 
> in proper tension under certain conditions.
>
>
> Of course I understand that, if I don't like it, I can change them out. I 
> really don't need guidance for that decision, though. I think the idea of a 
> query like this on the forum is more to see if somebody out there has a 
> suggestion, or had a similar problem and fixed it by doing x, or y. Because 
> other than the fact that they are not working all that well, I like them 
> okay, and they are part of the bicycle I just paid a bunch of money for. To 
> keep insisting that it must be user error, or friction is not for everyone 
> (but it's great for me!) is not all that helpful, even if it turns out to 
> be the case. I mean, it's friction shifting a bicycle, not trying to 
> parse Sarah Palin 
> .
>
> Meanwhile, back in the lab, I am pondering several solutions, including a 
> swanky set of vintage SunTour stem mounted power shifters that I just dug 
> up out of my parts cabinet.
>
>  
>
>
> 
>
> My only concern is will these things clear the "V" in the Bullmoose? I 
> might need to raise the bar a bit or try some other tweak. Also need to do 
> some de-rustification.
>
> Mark "not shiftless since about 1971" in Beacon
>
>
>> On 02/02/2016 06:06 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>
>> So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it shift, 
>> and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me grew up 
>> shifting bicycles back when *every shift (every single shift) in the 
>> pull the cable direction required you to overshift and release.*  It's 
>> second nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it on every shift, but I 
>> know how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me from being able to put the 
>> derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  My job is to put the derailleur 
>> exactly where it needs to be.  The shifter's job is to not prevent me from 
>> doing my job.  I use these shifters (including on hills) and I know how to 
>> use them and I like them.  
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/02/2016 06:06 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:


So, when I pull the cable I do as many clicks it takes to make it 
shift, and if it overshifted some I trim it back.  Many people like me 
grew up shifting bicycles back when *every shift (every single shift) 
in the pull the cable direction required you to overshift and 
release.*  It's second nature.  It's nice that I don't have to do it 
on every shift, but I know how to do it.  The clicks NEVER prevent me 
from being able to put the derailleur exactly where it needs to be. 
 My job is to put the derailleur exactly where it needs to be.  The 
shifter's job is to not prevent me from doing my job.  I use these 
shifters (including on hills) and I know how to use them and I like them.


Campagnolo Nuovo Record, right?  That one was a later shifter and really 
demanded overshift and release.  Some of the others, not so much.  As I 
recall it, the early Shimano - Crane, for example - Sun Tour VGT were 
early shifters and didn't require much if any overshift.


So this Sun Race should be thought of as a coarse ratchet?  I can see 
where that could be rather confusing to someone with no experience with 
ratcheting friction shifters who is expecting clicking to mean indexing.


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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[David Banzer]

Like Bill, I'll certainly buy a couple pairs if folks aren't digging them. 
I have one on my Clem that is shifting an Ultegra long-cage rear derailleur 
and an 8-speed custom cassette (which probably should have more problems 
shifting than a standard cassette). I've not experienced any issues at all 
and am pleased as punch with it. 
I'll go out on a very long limb and suggest that maybe the stock rear 
derailleur might be part of the issue, but I've no experience with the 
Altus that comes on it.
The clicks are really only in one direction - you certainly can overshift a 
click, then trim back. Or just replace it with an Sunrace indexed shifter - 
they're sold individually and are fairly inexpensive.
David
Chicago

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 3:48:48 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I'll buy SunRace shifters off your Clem.  I love them.  I'll pay 
> half-retail.  $32 for a pair.  Even though I have yet another pair coming 
> on my complete Appaloosa.
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA 
>
> On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 3:44:06 PM UTC-8, Tim Wood wrote:
>>
>> Well, I bit the bullet and bought some ultegra 8 speed bar end shifters. 
>> Gonna run the rear indexed I think.  
>>
>> And heads up, I got them for a great price from chain reaction cycles, 
>> $70 Canadian, which is like what, $10 US? Haha just kidding, but a good 
>> deal. Threw some $30 all silver deore brake levers in the basket too and 
>> got free shipping  from the UK. I've ordered from CRC before and they are 
>> good. 
>>
>> I've never run bar ends so I am curious to see how I like them. I've had 
>> brifters, down tube, thumbies, trigger and grip shift so it's time. I was a 
>> little concerned with the shifters bumping my legs in turns but with the 
>> shorter then bosco Albas and the longish stem I have lots of room.  I was 
>> also wondering if I could dismantle the sunraces and use the bar mount with 
>> the ultegras, as a cheap Paul thumbie??
>>
>> For grips I'm either going to slice a channel in the cheapo Clem grips or 
>> go with the felt padding/ newbaum set up. Slicing the grips may be tricky 
>> as there are thick finger grooves along the bottom. I decided to switch out 
>> the brake levers too because they are all silver, will probably have better 
>> performance over the tektros and I don't like how the fastening bolt on the 
>> tektros is right on top, it's often digging in to my hand. 
>>
>> Both pieces of kit come with cables and housing too so I'm pretty happy 
>> with the deal. Yay, new bike parts!  I should be done spending now Oh 
>> but wheels and tires.hmmm. 
>>
>> Tim "maybe I should have bought the frame only Clem" Wood
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Bill, I think you're bang on with your analysis and description, thanks for 
breaking it down and examining/explaining the shifter. 

I'm not upset at Riv for sourcing this part, its just less then ideal and the 
nuances of the shifter in this application make it difficult to live with. This 
is which why I ponied up for some ultegra bar ends. It's good to hear the sun 
race bodies will house the barcon so further options there. 

Now this may offend some, and call me new school, but I don't really understand 
the benefit of friction shifting in the rear. What is the point of being able 
to trim the rear derailer? it's either in line or not in line and when it's not 
in line it runs like crap.  I know it's all personal preference and no one way 
is the right way, but I'll take a well tuned index system any day. I don't want 
to have to think about or customize rear derailer alignment. Front shifting on 
the other hand I love having the ability to smoothly move the derailer along 
its plane to prevent chain rub. 

Cheers everyone!  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/02/2016 09:14 PM, Tim Wood wrote:

Now this may offend some, and call me new school, but I don't really understand 
the benefit of friction shifting in the rear. What is the point of being able 
to trim the rear derailer? it's either in line or not in line and when it's not 
in line it runs like crap.  I know it's all personal preference and no one way 
is the right way, but I'll take a well tuned index system any day. I don't want 
to have to think about or customize rear derailer alignment. Front shifting on 
the other hand I love having the ability to smoothly move the derailer along 
its plane to prevent chain rub.

Benefits:

1) it's difficult if not outright impossible to find new 7 speed 
indexing shifters these days, but 7 speed setups are very good. Ratios 
are excellent, parts are very durable and they're cheap.  If you want to 
run 7 speed, friction shifting is an excellent option, and perhaps your 
only choice.


2) You can run pretty much any derailleurs you like.  Fancy running 
Campagnolo?  Sure, why not.


3) It's a skill.  There's a certain amount of pleasure in exercising 
that skill and keeping it current.


4) Even besides the skill, there's a certain haptic pleasure in using at 
least some friction shifters.  I find using the Sun Tour Sprint/Silver 
shifter set up as a barcon positively delightful.


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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

I like friction rear shifting because on modern hyperglide style cassettes 
it's a lot easier to just skim across gears to the one I want out of the 
stack, instead of having to click 3 or 4 times after every stop over the 
course of just a few seconds. On my albastaches, I also like how it becomes 
a seamless motion of sliding my hand back with either my palm or fingers 
catching the shifter and nudging it smoothly into position. Just feels a 
lot more intuitive than indexed after a very short time. Mostly though, I 
like that I never have my indexing get off kilter as cables stretch and 
chains wear, and that I can use basically any cassette and derailleur combo 
I want when I swap parts out without replacing the shifter. That's what got 
me to try it. The smooth way it skates across the stack with the subtle 
gestures of my wrist made me a convert, though.

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 9:14:53 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Bill, I think you're bang on with your analysis and description, thanks 
> for breaking it down and examining/explaining the shifter. 
>
> I'm not upset at Riv for sourcing this part, its just less then ideal and 
> the nuances of the shifter in this application make it difficult to live 
> with. This is which why I ponied up for some ultegra bar ends. It's good to 
> hear the sun race bodies will house the barcon so further options there. 
>
> Now this may offend some, and call me new school, but I don't really 
> understand the benefit of friction shifting in the rear. What is the point 
> of being able to trim the rear derailer? it's either in line or not in line 
> and when it's not in line it runs like crap.  I know it's all personal 
> preference and no one way is the right way, but I'll take a well tuned 
> index system any day. I don't want to have to think about or customize rear 
> derailer alignment. Front shifting on the other hand I love having the 
> ability to smoothly move the derailer along its plane to prevent chain rub. 
>
> Cheers everyone!  
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Steve Palincsar]

I don't suppose there's any chance you have a stiff, binding chain link, 
is there?  3-4 crank revs is about what it takes to get a link back to 
the exact same place.


On 02/02/2016 06:06 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:


I rode the bike to work and back today (been taking the Big Dummy 
because it has a more robust lighting system) and again plagued with 
ghost shifting. After some force on the pedals, it will ghost shift. 
Sometimes not until you ease off a bit, three or four crank 
revolutions later. Weird.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

There was talk at some point of making the Mystery Bike without a fd, and using 
that stick to shift the chainrings. I suspect the youngsters at Riv may have 
talked the boss out of that one ;)

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

Riv has not been too concerned with shifting. Maybe around the time of the 
Simple One release, it seems like I saw a picture of a stick in someone's 
hand described as a shifter and another story about a guy sitting on the 
ground with his rear wheel off the bike and the passing bikers saying 
"Rivendell gear change."



On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 5:43:29 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

> I've run Ultegra bar-ends on Albas for many miles. You'll notice the bars 
> suddenly being longer on mounts/dismounts and sharp turns, but it becomes a 
> thing you unconsciously adjust for after a few rides. I've tried lots of 
> different types of shifters, but always gravitate back to bar-ends 'cause 
> they're so dang easy to reach and grab. Plus you get lots of room on the 
> bar for alternate hand positions. I even put them on my new Clem with 
> Boscos, but haven't ridden enough to know if this is going to work on such 
> a long-reach-back bar. I'll keep y'all posted!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Patrick Moore]

Frequent comments in early Riv Readers were on the vanity of excessive
shifting, and that, with click shifting built into your brake levers, you
were likely to shift far too often.

On Mon, Feb 1, 2016 at 1:43 PM, El Sapo  wrote:

> Riv has not been too concerned with shifting. Maybe around the time of the
> Simple One release, it seems like I saw a picture of a stick in someone's
> hand described as a shifter and another story about a guy sitting on the
> ground with his rear wheel off the bike and the passing bikers saying
> "Rivendell gear change."
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 5:43:29 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I've run Ultegra bar-ends on Albas for many miles. You'll notice the bars
>> suddenly being longer on mounts/dismounts and sharp turns, but it becomes a
>> thing you unconsciously adjust for after a few rides. I've tried lots of
>> different types of shifters, but always gravitate back to bar-ends 'cause
>> they're so dang easy to reach and grab. Plus you get lots of room on the
>> bar for alternate hand positions. I even put them on my new Clem with
>> Boscos, but haven't ridden enough to know if this is going to work on such
>> a long-reach-back bar. I'll keep y'all posted!
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Deacon Patrick]

Oops. Here's the link (same as the Crankin' through the snow 
post): 
https://medium.com/@DeaconPatrick/crankin-through-the-snow-7b5d604fd629#.uiz6jgjhw

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 2:44:12 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> That was the inspiration behind my current setup on the Hunqapillar. Last 
> picture in this post shows no FD, though the snow blocks seeing the Wolf 
> narrow-wide middle chain ring, which retains the chain wonderfully well.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 2:31:51 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> There was talk at some point of making the Mystery Bike without a fd, and 
>> using that stick to shift the chainrings. I suspect the youngsters at Riv 
>> may have talked the boss out of that one ;)
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Deacon Patrick]

That was the inspiration behind my current setup on the Hunqapillar. Last 
picture in this post shows no FD, though the snow blocks seeing the Wolf 
narrow-wide middle chain ring, which retains the chain wonderfully well.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 2:31:51 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> There was talk at some point of making the Mystery Bike without a fd, and 
> using that stick to shift the chainrings. I suspect the youngsters at Riv 
> may have talked the boss out of that one ;)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Steve Palincsar]

That was the shifting scheme for the original Quickbeam, too.

On 02/01/2016 04:31 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

There was talk at some point of making the Mystery Bike without a fd, and using 
that stick to shift the chainrings. I suspect the youngsters at Riv may have 
talked the boss out of that one ;)



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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

I'll buy SunRace shifters off your Clem.  I love them.  I'll pay 
half-retail.  $32 for a pair.  Even though I have yet another pair coming 
on my complete Appaloosa.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA 

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 3:44:06 PM UTC-8, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Well, I bit the bullet and bought some ultegra 8 speed bar end shifters. 
> Gonna run the rear indexed I think.  
>
> And heads up, I got them for a great price from chain reaction cycles, $70 
> Canadian, which is like what, $10 US? Haha just kidding, but a good deal. 
> Threw some $30 all silver deore brake levers in the basket too and got free 
> shipping  from the UK. I've ordered from CRC before and they are good. 
>
> I've never run bar ends so I am curious to see how I like them. I've had 
> brifters, down tube, thumbies, trigger and grip shift so it's time. I was a 
> little concerned with the shifters bumping my legs in turns but with the 
> shorter then bosco Albas and the longish stem I have lots of room.  I was 
> also wondering if I could dismantle the sunraces and use the bar mount with 
> the ultegras, as a cheap Paul thumbie??
>
> For grips I'm either going to slice a channel in the cheapo Clem grips or 
> go with the felt padding/ newbaum set up. Slicing the grips may be tricky 
> as there are thick finger grooves along the bottom. I decided to switch out 
> the brake levers too because they are all silver, will probably have better 
> performance over the tektros and I don't like how the fastening bolt on the 
> tektros is right on top, it's often digging in to my hand. 
>
> Both pieces of kit come with cables and housing too so I'm pretty happy 
> with the deal. Yay, new bike parts!  I should be done spending now Oh 
> but wheels and tires.hmmm. 
>
> Tim "maybe I should have bought the frame only Clem" Wood
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Kainalu]

I'm with Bill. I find the clicks slightly annoying, but all in all it's been a 
great shifter. I'd buy them all up, like Bill, but like Bill I've got another 
set coming on my soon to be new monster Clem.
103 mattresses up
-Kai
Brooklyn NY 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

Well, my Mystery Bike has two rings but no front dérailleur. I stay in the big 
ring almost all the time, but if I need a really low gear, it isn't hard to 
drop the chain into the smaller ring.



> On Feb 1, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> There was talk at some point of making the Mystery Bike without a fd, and 
> using that stick to shift the chainrings. I suspect the youngsters at Riv may 
> have talked the boss out of that one ;)
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

Understood, Pudge..I meant for future production bikes. My recollection is that 
GP was kinda fired up for the idea, but prototypes kept ending up with a fd 
when he wasn't looking. Those rascally kids!

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

I'd be willing to sell the shifters Bill if you are serious. But I want to make 
sure I like the bar ends first and there is no chance that I would want to 
dismantle the sunrace shifters and turn them in to thumbie bodies - if that is 
even possible. 

Deacon Patrick, that's funny I was looking for your front shifter in those 
photos as it was glaringly missing from the bars. I assumed it was just hiding 
behind the fender shield on the dt. 

So, I'm curious Bill and Kai, what do like about these shifters that makes you 
want to hoard them?  Is there something I'm missing or is there a way I can set 
them up to improve their performance? 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't necessarily want to hoard them.  It's just that they are nice 
shifters and if people want to throw them in the garbage, I'll save them 
from the trash bin.  If I can pick up really nice shifters for really 
cheap, I will stock up.  They work great for me, and there is no setup 
secret.  They are friction shifters.  If I get a ghost shift I didn't do it 
right.  Friction shifting isn't for everyone.  



On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 7:49:36 PM UTC-8, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> I'd be willing to sell the shifters Bill if you are serious. But I want to 
> make sure I like the bar ends first and there is no chance that I would 
> want to dismantle the sunrace shifters and turn them in to thumbie bodies - 
> if that is even possible. 
>
> Deacon Patrick, that's funny I was looking for your front shifter in those 
> photos as it was glaringly missing from the bars. I assumed it was just 
> hiding behind the fender shield on the dt. 
>
> So, I'm curious Bill and Kai, what do like about these shifters that makes 
> you want to hoard them?  Is there something I'm missing or is there a way I 
> can set them up to improve their performance? 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Sweet mixte!  You have quite the harem of cool city/utility/fun bikes Mark!  

Ya, I know what you mean with the front shifter, either I'm bumping it or maybe 
it is rattling out of position as I'm always giving it a couple clicks to stop 
chain rub. I was thinking it was a cable tension issue but I think you're on to 
something with the vibration theory. The bottom line is that these shifters 
weren't meant for this type of application, they are an internal gear hub 
shifter which I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about but I know that they 
work on very different shifting principles. 

Do you guys think if we canvassed the group and band together that Riv would 
help correct the issue and maybe offer a discount or credit toward some 
different shifters?  Probably a long shot. Based on the description they seem 
to love these things and they aren't going away cuz they're on basically every 
ready to ride. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Well, I bit the bullet and bought some ultegra 8 speed bar end shifters. Gonna 
run the rear indexed I think.  

And heads up, I got them for a great price from chain reaction cycles, $70 
Canadian, which is like what, $10 US? Haha just kidding, but a good deal. Threw 
some $30 all silver deore brake levers in the basket too and got free shipping  
from the UK. I've ordered from CRC before and they are good. 

I've never run bar ends so I am curious to see how I like them. I've had 
brifters, down tube, thumbies, trigger and grip shift so it's time. I was a 
little concerned with the shifters bumping my legs in turns but with the 
shorter then bosco Albas and the longish stem I have lots of room.  I was also 
wondering if I could dismantle the sunraces and use the bar mount with the 
ultegras, as a cheap Paul thumbie??

For grips I'm either going to slice a channel in the cheapo Clem grips or go 
with the felt padding/ newbaum set up. Slicing the grips may be tricky as there 
are thick finger grooves along the bottom. I decided to switch out the brake 
levers too because they are all silver, will probably have better performance 
over the tektros and I don't like how the fastening bolt on the tektros is 
right on top, it's often digging in to my hand. 

Both pieces of kit come with cables and housing too so I'm pretty happy with 
the deal. Yay, new bike parts!  I should be done spending now Oh but wheels 
and tires.hmmm. 

Tim "maybe I should have bought the frame only Clem" Wood

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

I've run Ultegra bar-ends on Albas for many miles. You'll notice the bars 
suddenly being longer on mounts/dismounts and sharp turns, but it becomes a 
thing you unconsciously adjust for after a few rides. I've tried lots of 
different types of shifters, but always gravitate back to bar-ends 'cause 
they're so dang easy to reach and grab. Plus you get lots of room on the bar 
for alternate hand positions. I even put them on my new Clem with Boscos, but 
haven't ridden enough to know if this is going to work on such a 
long-reach-back bar. I'll keep y'all posted!

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Oops, Should have been more specific, Tim. I was referring to the Burley 
Piccolo currently on my Le Tour, not my Burley trailer. For the Clementine, 
the issue here, due to the long chainstays, is fabricating longer rack 
extensions from the Moose rack to the upper seat stay braze-ons.

After posting last night, I took another ride on the Clementine. I first 
tightened down the shifters using an allen key (where the old style often 
has the half ring that you can adjust tension by hand.) I tightened them up 
but still experienced the same issues, including ghost shifting. I did 
notice that, particularly with the front shifter, it is placed in such a 
way that I find it almost impossible not to contact it with my hand now and 
then, and it is super sensitive, even after tightening, so that may be a 
cause for the front constantly needing re-trimming. But the back still 
ghost shifts unexplainably. I suspect the inner mech on these may not be 
holding position well and slipping due to road vibrations, etc?



On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 1:09:48 AM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Love the big dummy! Hey Mark, have you tried hooking up the burley trailer 
> yet? Because of the shape of the Clem rear dropouts I wasn't able to 
> install my chariot trailer receiver. I guess we'll be needing this part to 
> make it happen https://burley.com/product/hitch-adapter/.  However I read 
> a few reviews on Amazon that said the adapter caused excess stress on the 
> quick release and bent them.  There's also the classic hitch option but not 
> super keen on clamping that thing on my frame. 




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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think these shifters from Riv are long for this world. I had assumed 
they operated similarly to Silvers with the clickety-ratchet, but y'all are 
getting specific indexed clicks. That's like trying to shift a Suntour derailer 
with Shimano index..not gonna work. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/30/2016 01:41 PM, Wayne Naha wrote:
I'm having the same problem with shifting on my Clem.  I've only used 
friction shifting on my 5 speed freewheel equipped bike.  That was no 
problem to shift.  Then I had an indexed shifter on a 7 speed bike, 
and that was great, too.  I could go back and forth between the two 
effortlessly.  But now friction shifting 8 speeds is more 
problematical.  I figured that it was a matter of needing practice, 
but maybe there's more to it.


I found that to be true.  Friction shifting 7 Hyperglide is pretty 
easy.  I found it got appreciably harder with 8, greater likelihood of 
ghost shifting on startup after having downshifted for a light.


I then, over the course of several years learned some shifting 
techniques that made accurate hyperglide friction shifting more reliable 
(very counter previous practice - making sure to shift under load, for 
example) and then did an experiment and revisited the concept.  I 
customized an 8 speed 12-32 into a 13-32 and swapped in place of the 
13-30 7 speed.  I discovered that it was mostly the same, but at the top 
end, say 2nd to 4th position, it was noticeably more difficult to shift 
accurately vs the 7.


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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Wayne Naha]

I'm having the same problem with shifting on my Clem.  I've only used 
friction shifting on my 5 speed freewheel equipped bike.  That was no 
problem to shift.  Then I had an indexed shifter on a 7 speed bike, and 
that was great, too.  I could go back and forth between the two 
effortlessly.  But now friction shifting 8 speeds is more problematical.  I 
figured that it was a matter of needing practice, but maybe there's more to 
it.

On Friday, January 29, 2016 at 1:58:19 AM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>
> I don't understand why the shifting was set up like it was. It's not a 
> good thing. I've used friction exclusively and it's fine. What doesn't work 
> is the clicks. I get surprise shifting and slipping gears. the click is a 
> fixed point and it's usually the wrong setting. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

I thought that too Joe when I first saw them but shifting them is comfortable 
enough. I push and pull with me thumb and sometimes on the rear shifter I use 
my index finger from under the bar to push it up. 

The real issue is this shifting, it's starting to drive me nuts. Last night I 
went on a 2 hour spin through some local greenway paths and ended up finding 
some nice undulating forest trails that followed a little creek. The bike 
handled the swooping turns and uneven surfaces amazingly, it was so fun.  But, 
at one point I was descending and I could see a steep ramp approaching and knew 
I'd need to be in the small chainring (I was mid or higher up the cassette).  
Without even touching the rear shifter, only dropping down in the front, it 
started skipping and clunking and I couldn't get it back again and had to 
dismount part way up the climb. Annoying. 

I started thinking about it and wondered if the long chain stays played a roll 
in this scenario?  It's likely the rear shifter is to blame, it was probably 
one click away from being perfectly in line with the gear and when the chain 
went to the front ring, the new angle of the chain was enough to cause an 
alignment issue in the rear. But would the long stays and associated chain also 
contribute to this? Would the extra length exaggerate the angles?  Does the 
extra long chain affect shifting performance?  

All bitching and hypothesizing aside, it's not gonna stop me from riding again 
tonight! And neither is this relentless west coast rain. Once these kiddlings 
are in bed I'll be out there!

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

Roll with the date night, brother. Ride tomorrow ;)

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

 

Another thing to consider with the Sunrace thumb shifter is that it may not 
work well with your particular brake lever if you want to use the 
Riv-preferred orientation. When I installed mine alongside a Shimano Deore 
T610 lever (which has its clamping screw to the *inside* of the bar), I 
found that the shift lever interfered with the brake lever's clamp (as 
shown in the photo below). When the shifter is moved farther forward to 
clear the clamp, it's then too far forward to operate with my thumb with my 
hand still on the grip area.





It was a simple fix to rotate the shifter 90 degrees and re-adjust the 
cable housing end:





We’ll see how this arrangement goes, once I finish with the build (I'm 
going with a 1x8 drivetrain). If it doesn't work out -- this, plus the 
shifting issues mentioned by others -- I’ll switch to a bar-end shifter.


Bob E

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

Get after it, son! I'm at work all weekend (care home, I stay for the 
duration), so no riding for me. Have fun in the rain!

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

I'm a bit mystified by the thumbshifters being mounted inboard like that. It 
seems to me it would take some gymnastics to get your thumb/fingers over there. 
My Bike Friday has Silvers on Paul Thumbies mounted on the outside of V-O 
Porteur bars where it's simple to hit it with my thumb, fingers, or punt it 
with the base of my palm. Easy peasy!

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Ya I will!! But now my wife is talking about a date night. Doesn't she know 
there is another woman in my life? Her name is Clem, she was conceived in 
California, born in Taiwan and has bolt ons from Japan. She's a little stout 
but I like 'em that way!

Care home eh Joe? That's a tough job, my wife does it. It takes a special 
person, good job. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

It may just be luck of the draw combined with nailing the cable tension. One 
time I had a 9-speed Shimano bar-con accurately shifting a Shimano derailer and 
8-speed cassette with one extra click. IIRC it was a matter of using what I 
had, and assuming I would go friction but tried the clicks first. Sometimes ya 
just get lucky, which may have happened at Riv when they set up some bikes with 
those SunRace shifters.

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I have to report the same shifting issues that are being mentioned 
regarding the Clems as built by Riv. In terms of what I am used to 
regarding gears, I have ridden it all with the exception of 11-speed. I 
mostly ride 6, 7, 8 speed friction these days.

I haven't yet had much time to try to figure out what is going on, but it 
will suddenly shift, skip, or grind under a moderate pedal load (not even a 
hill). Always find myself trimming both shifters, and starting to tense in 
anticipation of a problem.  I also feel like it does not play very well in 
the big/big combo, which I realize is a cross but thought I would be fine 
with modern 8 speed, negating the need to shift into the little ring, which 
for me is only for serious hills or when towing my Burley, not yet 
installed.

Even though other issues that kept me off the Clem have been squared away, 
I have not been riding it a lot lately, mainly because I have yet to rack 
it or dyno-light it. So the Big Dummy is getting the depths of winter daily 
commuting duties. And that has way longer chainstays than the Clementine. 
And nary a shifting problem, 3x8. It's kind of disappointing because one 
big draw for me about the Clem was the complete, don't need to think about 
it, good decent Riv approved parts selection. And yet here I am thinking 
about it. 


On Saturday, January 30, 2016 at 6:44:18 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
>
> The real issue is this shifting, it's starting to drive me nuts. ...
>
> I started thinking about it and wondered if the long chain stays played a 
> roll in this scenario?
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/30/2016 06:44 PM, Tim Wood wrote:

I thought that too Joe when I first saw them but shifting them is comfortable 
enough. I push and pull with me thumb and sometimes on the rear shifter I use 
my index finger from under the bar to push it up.

The real issue is this shifting, it's starting to drive me nuts. Last night I 
went on a 2 hour spin through some local greenway paths and ended up finding 
some nice undulating forest trails that followed a little creek. The bike 
handled the swooping turns and uneven surfaces amazingly, it was so fun.  But, 
at one point I was descending and I could see a steep ramp approaching and knew 
I'd need to be in the small chainring (I was mid or higher up the cassette).  
Without even touching the rear shifter, only dropping down in the front, it 
started skipping and clunking and I couldn't get it back again and had to 
dismount part way up the climb. Annoying.


Are you saying that when you shifted in front the drivetrain started 
skipping in back?   I'm not sure I understand from your description 
exactly what happened.




I started thinking about it and wondered if the long chain stays played a roll 
in this scenario?  It's likely the rear shifter is to blame, it was probably 
one click away from being perfectly in line with the gear and when the chain 
went to the front ring, the new angle of the chain was enough to cause an 
alignment issue in the rear. But would the long stays and associated chain also 
contribute to this? Would the extra length exaggerate the angles?  Does the 
extra long chain affect shifting performance?


No the longer the stays the less the angle becomes.  For the ultimate in 
this, consider a tandem set up with a long chain and the main crank up 
front with the captain.  No angularity issues whatsoever, and a nearly 
perfect chain line even in the most extreme cross-chain gears.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Sorry Steve, I re-read that and it does need clarification: When I shifted to 
the small chainring up front, the rear derailer started skipping, clunking and 
became misaligned. 

Good point about the chain length not being a factor and the tandem example. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Love the big dummy! Hey Mark, have you tried hooking up the burley trailer yet? 
Because of the shape of the Clem rear dropouts I wasn't able to install my 
chariot trailer receiver. I guess we'll be needing this part to make it happen 
https://burley.com/product/hitch-adapter/.  However I read a few reviews on 
Amazon that said the adapter caused excess stress on the quick release and bent 
them.  There's also the classic hitch option but not super keen on clamping 
that thing on my frame. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/29/2016 04:30 PM, Tim Wood wrote:

I made an interesting observation on last nights ride regarding front end 
wobble.  Prior to the ride I was looking at a couple photos of my Clem and 
thought the saddle was tilted a little high, and on my last ride at times I 
felt a little pressure. So I tilted it more level and no more wobble. Is this 
even possible?


Well, if you had the seat too high and angled up so it was poking you in 
the goolies, you probably be squirming around a lot when you were 
pedaling, and that would almost certainly be felt when you were riding 
down the road.




I even went as far as riding to the same descending section of bike path where 
I first noticed the wobble to replicate the speed and conditions and it didn't 
happen. Could shifting my weight ever so slightly cause the correction?


By this hypothesis, it would be /not/ shifting your weight around that 
would make the difference (i.e., you'd stop doing the bad thing that was 
causing the problem).





I made no other changes to the bike prior to this ride, not even tire pressure. 
Wait, not totally true, I also adjusted the angle of the left brake lever 
because it felt a little more outward then the right.


And that's got to be irrelevant.



Maybe it's neither of these, maybe my body is now accustomed to the new 
handling characteristics with the front rack on now that I've done a few rides 
with it. Either way I'll take it, and my butt and position on the bike felt way 
better and balanced with the saddle tweak.


I'm sure your butt thanks you. :-)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

I think you're on to something Steve. Although, the first time I noticed the 
wobble it I was on the aforementioned descent and I merely sat up to take off 
my gloves and was coasting, not pedalling, when the shimmy initiated. But your 
explanation seems more plausible than mine which is the saddle angle adjustment 
lead to a wobble-free distribution of weight. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

I made an interesting observation on last nights ride regarding front end 
wobble.  Prior to the ride I was looking at a couple photos of my Clem and 
thought the saddle was tilted a little high, and on my last ride at times I 
felt a little pressure. So I tilted it more level and no more wobble. Is this 
even possible? I even went as far as riding to the same descending section of 
bike path where I first noticed the wobble to replicate the speed and 
conditions and it didn't happen. Could shifting my weight ever so slightly 
cause the correction?  I made no other changes to the bike prior to this ride, 
not even tire pressure. Wait, not totally true, I also adjusted the angle of 
the left brake lever because it felt a little more outward then the right. 

Maybe it's neither of these, maybe my body is now accustomed to the new 
handling characteristics with the front rack on now that I've done a few rides 
with it. Either way I'll take it, and my butt and position on the bike felt way 
better and balanced with the saddle tweak. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Glad I'm not the only one El Sapo. And I think I've read others gripping about 
them on this group. With the complete Joe's and Sam's also coming equipped I'm 
sure there will be more people complaining and switching out shifters.  

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Wayne Naha]

Tim, so sorry to hear about your girl!  A broken hip and a body cast?  My 
deep condolences.  I have two little girls not much older, and that really 
hits me.  It is important to take a break from caregiving, so I am relieved 
that you have some help and the opportunity for a great afternoon ride and 
a few beers.  It sounds like an awesome ride.  Your Clem looks great with 
the Albatross bars.  That's a mod I would like to do.  I look forward to 
reading more ride reports as you explore Vancouver.

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 9:41:34 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Thanks Shoji and Ben. 
>
> I never got use to looking down at the bullmoose, but boscos on a 
> traditional stem is a good look. And I agree, being able to adjust the 
> angle is nice. That being said,  Riv did a good job on the angle of the 
> bosco bars for me. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Thanks for the kinds words Wayne. Isn't riding bikes the best form of therapy? 
It always helps me through the tough times. 

My girl is such a trooper, and to top it off while at the hospital they did 
blood work and she was diagnosed with celiac disease. Jeez. So the whole family 
is going gluten free - but I have to make an exception when it comes to beer!

You should try the albas, It greatly improved my enjoyment of the bike. I often 
find myself going out to the garage to just stare at it now. Is that weird? I'm 
sure I'm not alone there. 

That being said I hope not too many Clemers make the swap, I don't want the 
market to be flooded with boscos as I plan to list mine soon! Ha. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[El Sapo]

I don't understand why the shifting was set up like it was. It's not a good 
thing. I've used friction exclusively and it's fine. What doesn't work is the 
clicks. I get surprise shifting and slipping gears. the click is a fixed point 
and it's usually the wrong setting. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Well done, Tim -- that's a very attractive and practical build!

I'm still sourcing parts to finishing building up my (grey 52-cm) Clem 
frame. Although I have Albatross bars on another bike and really like them, 
I bought Bullmoose Bosco bars for the Clem, just to give them a try. I'm 
hoping it works out.

Best of luck to your daughter during her recovery.

Bob

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[RDS]

Nice pics.  Appreciate the write up as I have a yet to be ridden 52 Clem. 
 Do you have any opinion or feedback on the shifters (they click, but are 
not indexed)?  Which fenders and tire width?

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 9:41:34 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Thanks Shoji and Ben. 
>
> I never got use to looking down at the bullmoose, but boscos on a 
> traditional stem is a good look. And I agree, being able to adjust the 
> angle is nice. That being said,  Riv did a good job on the angle of the 
> bosco bars for me. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Hey RDS. I'm really not loving the shifters. I'll preface that with the fact 
that I come from a road background and have only ever ridden indexed rear 
shifting.  I had my front der, down tube shifter on my LHT set up in friction 
for custom trimming, but never the rear. So on the Clem maybe I'm an 
inexperienced friction shifter but I often experience mis shifts, especially 
under load. You know when you "down shift" (easier gear) at the base of a climb 
and then part way up you realize you need to go easier, it's tricky to finesse 
the der to the next gear. The shifter clicks, the chain clunks and skips, you 
give it another click and it can't find the chainline, you move the shifter 
back up and then it goes back in to the gear that was too hard, and then you 
loose your momentum, then you slow down and then you start to swear. This 
doesn't happen when up shifting and it must have to do with those clicks. The 
shifters only click when down shifting. My next upgrade should be bar end 
shifters with the rear set indexed. I don't want to pay attention to rear 
derailer alignment I just want to flick it and go. Front I like to trim as 
mentioned. It would also be nice to free up some bar space but bar ends would 
require getting cork grips and I hope I like them as much as the cheap rubber 
Clem ones cuz those are awesome ! Seriously.

The tires are the stock ones that come on the complete build and are Kenda 
kwick 29x2.0. I don't have calipers but by my eye and a tape measure they seem 
to measure a bit over 50mm. The fenders are planet bike cascadia 29ers. They 
claim max tire size of 29x2.3 which I could see as I have a bit of wiggle room. 
If you're debating which fenders to get and want to see different options on 
the bike, check out this folder because I tried three different ones before 
settling on the Cascadias.   
https://flickr.com/photos/137638381@N05/sets/72157660720878839

I don't mind the look of them and they have good coverage. I just picked up 
some nomad resist 700x45 tires and probably won't go bigger than 50 and 
wouldn't mind trying some velo orange 60mm fender of some style, to class it up 
a bit. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Joe Bernard]

You can use bar-ends with Clem grips, just cut a hole in the ends like Riv does 
for cork. You should even be able to dig out a groove on the bottoms for the 
cable. Or just run it beneath the grips like I show on my just-posted Clem 
pics. I'm going to twine them up to the bar near the brake levers - didn't get 
that far yet - and live with the feel of touching the cables at the bottom of 
the grips. I tend to ride "loose fingered" anyway, so it's not a problem. 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Thanks Bob! One thing I'll say about the Bosco is that they have a lot more 
useable grip options and It was nice to rotate through them on longer rides.  
On the albas I'm mainly on the grips, maybe a bit in front of them and I found 
a nice tt position with my forearms resting on the bars. 

Regardless, It's nice to have bar options in the garage to be able to complete 
compulsive late night handlebar swaps! 

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Tim Wood]

Thanks Zed, maybe I'll play around with the tire pressure.  Like I said it only 
happens no handed and at very specific speeds, I'd estimate around 30-40km/hr, 
so it's a pretty rare scenario and it's easy to correct. 

Nice decal design btw!

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

Thanks, Tim. And hey, for better or worse I consider 'no hands' to be the 
fifth really good hand position on my albastches, a habit I picked up from 
my Simcoe roadster which is so stable and so limited in hand grips that it 
became habit for me to ride long stretches of the trail out here just 
leaning back. But still, those are some pretty good speeds, I think 40kmph 
is about as fast as I've been able to get my Clem up to period in the 
winter out here, and that was just for a few seconds on a downhill. I don't 
think I'd want to be taking that no-hands anyway ;)

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 2:48:46 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Thanks Zed, maybe I'll play around with the tire pressure.  Like I said it 
> only happens no handed and at very specific speeds, I'd estimate around 
> 30-40km/hr, so it's a pretty rare scenario and it's easy to correct. 
>
> Nice decal design btw!
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Shoji Takahashi]

Nice write up and great bike. Hope your 4-yo gets better soon.
shoji


On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 12:47:10 AM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Hey folks!  I wanted to share a brief ride report/update/review on my Clem 
> Smith Jr. as I've put a few miles on it now and made some changes that have 
> really improved it for me. 
>
> The major change I made was swapping out the bullmoose boscos for an 
> albatross-tallux combo. I stuck with a 120mm stem length and am happy with 
> the fit. The new bars give me a bit longer reach, more upper body lean, and 
> I feel more balanced on the bike. The bar swap also made the bike's 
> handling feel more nimble and slow speed maneuvering and turning radius 
> feels better. I also think the bars look better to my preference. 
>
> I've also added a banjo bros medium saddle bag which really added to the 
> function, and form in my opinion, of the bike. It's a great size for day 
> trips and I'be been pleased with its capacity. It's not so big that it 
> dominates the look of the bike and when empty it stills holds its shape. 
> One critique I'd give it are the closing straps, as I would prefer a snap 
> or twist closure vs the thread and poke style on this bike. 
>
> Also added was a Nitto big front rack. I've yet to lash a wald on to it 
> which is the plan, nor have I ridden it with panniers attached. I like the 
> look of it and I'm curious to see how the Clem rides with a mainly front 
> biased load. One thing I did notice since installing the rack is a shimmy 
> or wobble at medium to high speed - only when riding no handed. Prior to 
> installing the rack I experienced no wobble riding no handed, and while 
> this isn't a common scenario, I sometimes take both hands off the bar to 
> adjust clothing etc. Any ideas?
>
> Other than that, I threw on some king iris cages, some Klean kanteens and 
> my road morph pump on the down tube. She's pretty much ready to tour if I 
> make the time. 
>
> Available time to ride, and life, took a hit lately as my 4 year old 
> daughter fell and broke her hip and is currently in a body cast. I've had 
> to stay home from work to care for her and it is sad to watch her in so 
> much pain and discomfort. She's been in the cast for 2 weeks now but after 
> a call for help to grandma I found myself with some free time to go for a 
> mini adventure. 
>
> I recently moved to the Vancouver area (Canada not Washington) and wanted 
> to combine my love of riding with my love of beer. Vancouver has lots going 
> for it and cycling infrastructure and good craft beer are two of them. I 
> set out from my house and rode some nice designated bike lanes, multi use 
> pathways and forest trails to the Skytrain which took me downtown. Riding 
> the train with bikes is fairly easy except during rush hour which I would 
> find out later this day. 
>
> Arriving in downtown I was amazed and impressed at the bike lanes and 
> infrastructure and I took a greenway path sans automobiles to an area of 
> town affectionately known as the brewery creek district. I hit up Main 
> Street Brewing company and had an excellent Pilsner and an award winning 
> session ipa. The brewery is an an old, reclaimed factory and is full of 
> charm. 
>
> Next up I rode some more awesome bike lanes and trails to Bomber Brewing 
> where I had, quite possibly, the best Pilsner of my life. So good that I 
> picked up a 6 pack to go and threw it in the saddle bag. I wanted to hit 
> some more breweries in the area but I was at my limit for safe riding so I 
> started zig zagging my way to the Skytrain. 
>
> At this point it was rush hour and getting dark and this is when I learned 
> that riding the train with a bike, especially one as long and lanky as my 
> 59cm Clem, proved impossible. I couldn't get on the busy train and was 
> forced to ride the 30 some km home in the dark. Looming over this journey 
> was the massive Port Mann bridge which was recently built and I was unsure 
> how cycling across it would go. Fortunately, after some Google research I 
> found the bike route over and it turned out to be a really enjoyable 
> journey. I got home tired, hungry and satisfied.  All in all I had a great 
> time on the Clem with not an issue, neither mechanically or biomechanically 
> to report. In conclusion, I love this bike and I felt that this type of 
> journey is what it was designed for. 
>
> Here's some photos, cheers everyone!
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

Glad to see you finally got the rack sorted, Tim! Sorry to hear about your 
girl and hope things are getting better. Sounds like it was a fun ride, 
though. Wish I could help you more on the wobble thing... my 52cm with rack 
only does the usual wobble at low speeds, and it cleans up as it goes. I 
did have problems with more at one point and learned the front on mine is 
fairly sensitive to tire pressure and pushing that up 5psi resolved that. 
And I've also found adding my front panniers--even empty-- will clean up 
some normal wobble, but made wheel flop correction if I oversteered a 
problem. It tended to compound itself rather than correct itself, but I was 
using a wheel stabilizer back then and those problems are probably just 
that.

Hope you get it figured out though.

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Sorry about the upside down images, drafted with iPad and can't figure out 
> how to edit them. Here's a flicker link if they are too annoying. 
>
> https://flickr.com/photos/137638381@N05/sets/72157658944869634
>
> Tim
>
>

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