[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[Rick Thompson]

This is how I use my 2 bikes with wide/low. The commuter has the big ring 
on a triple center with bashguard on outer, the rando is 9 x 2 but the 
granny gets used only with the low 4 and only really for steep loaded hills.

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 8:06:54 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
> granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
> the full range. 
>
> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hello!
>> I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this 
>> question and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
>> everything I'm looking for!
>>
>> But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
>> with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature stress 
>> on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
>> understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where the 
>> middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?
>>
>> If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
>> half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
>> climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
>> I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
>> for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
>> and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
>> and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
>> Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
>> cassette for that section instead?
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts!
>> -Ben
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[Ben Mihovk]

So...after waking up to some replies and feeling okay about how I've been 
riding, I decided to do the opposite and utilize the granny ring more on my 
ride to school today. Long story short, I think I have the hang of it and 
can see spending more time on it. I did, however, have more slipping/lack 
of engagement while in the granny ring that was a little befuddling, but 
I'm pretty sure it's technique (I've got one of Grant's bluhgs about 
shifting pinned to read when I get some time during lunch today). I also 
read some shifting theory from Sheldon Brown this morning before I left and 
am feeling pretty good about it!

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts/feedback!
Ben

On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:47:53 AM UTC-5 brendonoid wrote:

> Everyone with a 1x drivetrain is cross chaining worse than you. 
> Seriously however I found that forcing myself to use the granny ring on my 
> wide/lows as often as possible saves a lot of premature wear and tear on my 
> drive train. The stainless/steel granny ring is a lot more durable and 
> spreading the load means you replace the alloy chainring less and wear out 
> the chain slower.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 18:51:42 UTC+8 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> *My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
>> granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
>> the full range. *
>>
>> That's what thought.
>>
>> The only reason I'm asking is because I had a bad shift incident last 
>> week (really noisy/rough while climbing in small ring...) and so I started 
>> digging around the ever-so-helpful internet and found a lot of dogmatic 
>> writing about NEVER cross chaining big ring to big cogs/small ring to small 
>> cogs. In retrospect, my bad shift incident was almost certainly waiting too 
>> long to drop down to the small ring, probably combined with spastic 
>> movement of the shifter.
>>
>> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 10:06:54 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
>>> granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
>>> the full range. 
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Hello!
 I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this 
 question and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
 everything I'm looking for!

 But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
 with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature 
 stress 
 on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
 understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where 
 the 
 middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?

 If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
 half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
 climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
 I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
 for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
 and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
 and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
 Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
 cassette for that section instead?

 Thanks for your thoughts!
 -Ben

>>>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[brendonoid]

Everyone with a 1x drivetrain is cross chaining worse than you. 
Seriously however I found that forcing myself to use the granny ring on my 
wide/lows as often as possible saves a lot of premature wear and tear on my 
drive train. The stainless/steel granny ring is a lot more durable and 
spreading the load means you replace the alloy chainring less and wear out 
the chain slower.

Just my two cents.

On Monday, 12 October 2020 at 18:51:42 UTC+8 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

> *My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
> granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
> the full range. *
>
> That's what thought.
>
> The only reason I'm asking is because I had a bad shift incident last week 
> (really noisy/rough while climbing in small ring...) and so I started 
> digging around the ever-so-helpful internet and found a lot of dogmatic 
> writing about NEVER cross chaining big ring to big cogs/small ring to small 
> cogs. In retrospect, my bad shift incident was almost certainly waiting too 
> long to drop down to the small ring, probably combined with spastic 
> movement of the shifter.
>
> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 10:06:54 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
>> granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
>> the full range. 
>>
>> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Hello!
>>> I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this 
>>> question and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
>>> everything I'm looking for!
>>>
>>> But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
>>> with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature stress 
>>> on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
>>> understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where the 
>>> middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?
>>>
>>> If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
>>> half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
>>> climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
>>> I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
>>> for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
>>> and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
>>> and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
>>> Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
>>> cassette for that section instead?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughts!
>>> -Ben
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[Ben Mihovk]

*My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
the full range. *

That's what thought.

The only reason I'm asking is because I had a bad shift incident last week 
(really noisy/rough while climbing in small ring...) and so I started 
digging around the ever-so-helpful internet and found a lot of dogmatic 
writing about NEVER cross chaining big ring to big cogs/small ring to small 
cogs. In retrospect, my bad shift incident was almost certainly waiting too 
long to drop down to the small ring, probably combined with spastic 
movement of the shifter.

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 10:06:54 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
> granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
> the full range. 
>
> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hello!
>> I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this 
>> question and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
>> everything I'm looking for!
>>
>> But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
>> with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature stress 
>> on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
>> understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where the 
>> middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?
>>
>> If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
>> half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
>> climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
>> I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
>> for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
>> and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
>> and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
>> Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
>> cassette for that section instead?
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts!
>> -Ben
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[Ben Mihovk]

*I missed the fact you are actually using a triple with only the middle and 
inner rings.  Same math except Front triple CL = 46.0 mm for the Middle 
Ring.   I dont know the Middle to Inner ring spacing, but on my XD2 is is 
about 8 to 9mm.*

*A front CL of 46 and a rear CL of 42.5 (130mmOLD) places the Middle Ring 
at the #4 Sprocket, so Middle to #8 and #9 has increased wear.*

*Your ACTAUL Front CL and Rear CL may be different from assumptions.  You 
can measured both and use the same method.*

John, 
I appreciate both your thoughtful and detailed responses. I'll definitely 
give it a look and do some measurements...there's nothing I'd love more 
than to put numbers to the situation so I can know exactly how much more 
wear 8 and 9 would be getting in the big ring. 
On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 9:33:10 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak wrote:

> Ben 
>
> I missed the fact you are actually using a triple with only the middle and 
> inner rings.  Same math except Front triple CL = 46.0 mm for the Middle 
> Ring.   I dont know the Middle to Inner ring spacing, but on my XD2 is is 
> about 8 to 9mm.
>
> A front CL of 46 and a rear CL of 42.5 (130mmOLD) places the Middle Ring 
> at the #4 Sprocket, so Middle to #8 and #9 has increased wear.
>
> Your ACTAUL Front CL and Rear CL may be different from assumptions.  You 
> can measured both and use the same method.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[Ben Mihovk]

*I would only worry about cross chaining if it was noisy and bothering me.*
The only noise I've had was a brutally bad/poorly timed shift in the small 
ring while climbing and was in too small of a cog in the rear...I've never 
had noise going in big ring/cog, so I think I'm okay. 

*In general, cutting switchbacks undermines trails that people work hard to 
maintain. It's not a good look. Clearly I don't know the specifics of your 
trail, so I don't want to be too judgemental.*

Yeah, that's something to think about for sure. It's a paved 
pedestrian/bike trail maintained by the city, and I mainly like cutting it 
because it helps me avoid really tight/slow turns when there are 
pedestrians around (and I never could go up it on my 1x7 setup on my last 
bike!). But I see your point. 
On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 10:12:14 PM UTC-5 tuolumne bikes wrote:

> Ben, there are lots of different points of view about riding. Nobody's 
> right or wrong. I would only worry about cross chaining if it was noisy and 
> bothering me. I would cruise up hills that are unlikely to need the small 
> ring by just shifting the back. If I thought I would need the small ring, I 
> would think about whether I should shift that big gap on the front sooner 
> than later so I'm not stuck with the big shift when the going is harder. 
> Doubly so on dirt.
>
> In general, cutting switchbacks undermines trails that people work hard to 
> maintain. It's not a good look. Clearly I don't know the specifics of your 
> trail, so I don't want to be too judgemental.
>
> Carl
> On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hello!
>> I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this 
>> question and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
>> everything I'm looking for!
>>
>> But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
>> with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature stress 
>> on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
>> understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where the 
>> middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?
>>
>> If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
>> half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
>> climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
>> I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
>> for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
>> and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
>> and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
>> Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
>> cassette for that section instead?
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts!
>> -Ben
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[tuolumne bikes]

Ben, there are lots of different points of view about riding. Nobody's 
right or wrong. I would only worry about cross chaining if it was noisy and 
bothering me. I would cruise up hills that are unlikely to need the small 
ring by just shifting the back. If I thought I would need the small ring, I 
would think about whether I should shift that big gap on the front sooner 
than later so I'm not stuck with the big shift when the going is harder. 
Doubly so on dirt.

In general, cutting switchbacks undermines trails that people work hard to 
maintain. It's not a good look. Clearly I don't know the specifics of your 
trail, so I don't want to be too judgemental.

Carl
On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hello!
> I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this question 
> and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
> everything I'm looking for!
>
> But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
> with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature stress 
> on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
> understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where the 
> middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?
>
> If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
> half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
> climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
> I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
> for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
> and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
> and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
> Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
> cassette for that section instead?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts!
> -Ben
>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[Joe Bernard]

My entirely unscientific opinion is it's basically a 1x system with a 
granny bailout. You're supposed to use the 42 most of the time and across 
the full range. 

On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hello!
> I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this question 
> and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
> everything I'm looking for!
>
> But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
> with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature stress 
> on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
> understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where the 
> middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?
>
> If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
> half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
> climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
> I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
> for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
> and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
> and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
> Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
> cassette for that section instead?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts!
> -Ben
>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Ben 

I missed the fact you are actually using a triple with only the middle and 
inner rings.  Same math except Front triple CL = 46.0 mm for the Middle 
Ring.   I dont know the Middle to Inner ring spacing, but on my XD2 is is 
about 8 to 9mm.

A front CL of 46 and a rear CL of 42.5 (130mmOLD) places the Middle Ring at 
the #4 Sprocket, so Middle to #8 and #9 has increased wear.

Your ACTAUL Front CL and Rear CL may be different from assumptions.  You 
can measured both and use the same method.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

[dougP]

*"The way I understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring 
is where the middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear 
cogs."*

Your perfectly sane.  The middle ring position on a triple should allow 
access to all the cogs.

*" Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of 
the cassette for that section instead?"*

Don't see how.  The smaller ring requires the chain to wrap tighter & 
engages fewer teeth & links.  Probably harder on things than using the big 
ring.

Those are just my opinions.  You may get responses to the contrary.  

dougP



On Sunday, October 11, 2020 at 5:08:37 PM UTC-7, Ben Mihovk wrote:
>
> Hello!
> I did try a few searches for some discussion or an answer to this question 
> and came up empty...but I'm sure someone will provide a link with 
> everything I'm looking for!
>
> But here's my question...if I have the Clipper wide/low double (42/26) 
> with a 9 speed cassette, am I "cross-chaining" and putting premature stress 
> on my chain by staying on the 42t at all times unless climbing? The way I 
> understand it, in a double crankset with a guard, the big ring is where the 
> middle ring would be in a triple and can use all the rear cogs. Am I wrong?
>
> If I'm out riding for fun, I'm usually on the big ring and the smaller 
> half of the cassette and I'll shift the FD to the small ring if I have a 
> climb (there's a really fun short cut through one end of a switchback that 
> I like dropping down and climbing). On my work commute, I'm riding uphill 
> for about a mile before things level off, then theres a series of descents 
> and climbs that keep the ride interesting. But that first mile is boring 
> and I stick with the big ring in the first three cogs most of the time. 
> Would it be easier on my chain to use the 26t ring with the middle of the 
> cassette for that section instead?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts!
> -Ben
>

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Theory with a Wide/Low Double

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Ben

I think calculating:

The front chainline for the outer and inner rings of the doubleand 
comparing them to 

The rear chainline for the #5 sprocket (mid point of a 9s)

AND THEN calculating which sprocket lines up with the 2 rings will give the 
minimal wear combination.

 

Then assuming Outer to #1 sprocket is acceptable   and   Inner to #9 
sprocket is acceptable,

determine how far you can go down on the Outer ring 

& likewise how far UP you can go on the Inner ring)  so chain wear is 
no greater than Outer to #1 or Inner to #9.

 

Shimano spec for Road front Chain Line (CL) is 43.5mm.  I can’t find a 
crank spec for the Outer to Inner ring spacing, but my best measurement on 
a XD2 triple is 7mm from Outer to Middle ring.   

Outer Ring CL = 43.5 + 3.5 = 47mm

Inner Ring CL = 43.5 – 3.5 = 40mm

 

Can’t find a Shimano spec for a rear CL with a 130mm OLD hub, but I 
calculated 42.5mm (for #5 Sprocket)   using

130mm OLD

4mmm from DO to face of #1 sprocket

4.3mm sprocket spacing.

   

So Outer Ring is 4.5mm out from the #5 sprocket,  or just about even with 
the #4 Sprocket.  This places the # 1 Sprocket 12.9mm out from the Outer 
Ring (3 x 4.3mm), which is acceptable wear.

Outer to Sprocket #7 has the same 12.9mm distance, so Outer Ring & #7 has 
same wear as to #1 sprocket.  Outer Ring to #8 or #9 sprockets has 
increased wear.

 

Inner Ring

Front CL is 40mm(43.4-3.5) which lines up about 

REAR CL (#5) is 42.5mm so the Inner Ring is about in the middle of #5 and 
#6 Sprocket.

Rear CL on #9 Sprocket is 25.3mm  (42.5 – 4x4.3,   the 4 is spacing for5 to 
6, 6 to 7, 7 to 8, 8 to 9).

So Inner to #9 distance is 14.7mm   or about 4/10 ths of sprocket more 
than   Outer to #1.

SO the Inner to #2 sprocket has the same 14.7mm distance, indicating Small 
to #2 has about same wear as Small to #9.

 

Hopes this helps,  the math probably needs checked.

 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ


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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

YAYYY!!! That was a long road to this point, but all seems well now. I'm 
looking forward to tomorrow when you'll be shifty! Wait, let me rephrase 
that... 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Thank you, Dorothy. ❤️ That is great to know, and I do think I’ve now gotten 
the issue fixed.

A List member messaged me and said, “Leah, I still don’t think those shifters 
are right...” And he was right. The clamp needed to swap places with the brake 
clamp. Then Joe B. realized the mechanic had swapped the brake levers (which 
had been correct), and apparently that is not right, either. I threw up my 
hands and took the bike to a LBS in town. The owner showered the bike with 
praise and took it for a long test ride. He fixed the shifters and brake levers 
and even found a thing or two extra to fix so the bike rides better. The 
ergonomics are better, the brakes are better, and the shifting is, so far, 
vastly improved. 

He told me after seeing my bikes he’s been telling customers to buy Clems from 
Rivendell; he really thinks Clems would be great mountain bikes. I could barely 
believe what I was hearing. So, all’s well that ends well and I’ll try my new 
shifters in their proper places in the morning on the school commute!

Thank you all SO much for walking along with me.
Leah

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Dorothy C]

I found this on a bikeforums thread 
6. The grips have to be pushed all the way onto the handlebar, you can’t let 
them hang off the end. The leather end plug is sandwiched between the end of 
the bar and a flange on the end cap. If you don’t have them pushed on all the 
way, the leather plug will shift and rotate. Also, the end cap needs to be in 
firm contact with the handlebar to support the spokes and leather rings 
properly.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

I should call them up in my best grizzled cop voice: JOE BERNARD HERE, DON'T 
SCREW IT UP. OK BYE. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Garth]

Waiting for promises of a better product, delivery and installation in the 
future doesn't help in the present though. Tension in the bolt is an easy 
check today, regardless of the shifter. 

Even terrific Sun Tour Thumbshifters need a slight tension adjustment now 
and then, as with any shifter that relies on tension to hold the gear. 
That's all I'm saying.  I find it may happen  for example after the bike 
sits for the winter, so Leah's bike not being unused for long period could 
do likewise. 
 

On Friday, August 16, 2019 at 7:17:49 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Ghost shifting with those clickety SunRace shifters is a fault of using an 
> IGH shifter on a derailer. It can be fiddled with enough cure it to the 
> satisfaction of some, but it's simply not a friction shifter. Leah will be 
> much happier with the Microshift, I promise. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Garth]

Neither is satisfaction in waiting for promises of a better product, 
delivery and installation in the future, when the tension is an easy check 
today, regardless of the shifter. 

On Friday, August 16, 2019 at 7:17:49 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Ghost shifting with those clickety SunRace shifters is a fault of using an 
> IGH shifter on a derailer. It can be fiddled with enough cure it to the 
> satisfaction of some, but it's simply not a friction shifter. Leah will be 
> much happier with the Microshift, I promise. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Ghost shifting with those clickety SunRace shifters is a fault of using an IGH 
shifter on a derailer. It can be fiddled with enough cure it to the 
satisfaction of some, but it's simply not a friction shifter. Leah will be much 
happier with the Microshift, I promise. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Garth]

Ghost shifting may also be as simple as a slight tightening of the tension 
bolt on top of the shifter in question. D-rings to adjust are sweet, 
hex/allen bolts are not ! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Bill Schairer]

With ghost shifting in the back I’d be checking the derailleur hanger alignment.

Bill S

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Party on, Garth 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Garth]

Oh boy . at this point amidst the comedy of trials and errors, who or 
what done what to/fro who or what . it's enough to speed up the Earth 
from rotating for just one moment while It rolls in Laughter !  So may as 
well break out song . it's just like riding a bike .  Liberty 
taking Flight . 

Oh if any fool ever put hands on a bike  that fool would be Me. Yes ... 
even the Me that is reading these very words and  murmuring "*what, a fool 
 surely not* *Me* ?"  
Ahahahahahaah ! 
This Me, that Me, he Me and she Me 
It's all the same Me to Me 
Everything Be Wondrously Alright 
Surely Forever Be 
All Be Allrighty ! 


 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Unless you're doing it yourself - I'll tell you how! - then it's off to REI for 
you. The new shifters will be less finicky for them, plus I/we can talk you 
through any further adjustments that may be needed. 

Just make sure they know you're doing reverse-sides with both in friction. 
They'll be tempted to mount "normal" and set the rear to index, which wouldn't 
work anyway cuz that shifter is 9-speed and your cassette is 8. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Leah Peterson]

I feel I must take the shifters to the REI mechanics now. That was the deal - 
they wouldn’t charge me for last visit but told me to come back for shifter 
service instead. Don’t I kind of have to see them? They do understand about 
friction, they just didn’t get the set up on my Aquaclem the first time. They 
kept arguing about whether the RD was indexed. Nope. Pure friction.

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 16, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> 
> My opinion of REI's bike mechanic fell precipitously a few years ago when the 
> head mechanic told me that the rubbing pads of the Shimano disk brakes on a 
> bike newly bought for a friend were behaving normally and would stop rubbing 
> after they "wore in." Idiot. Fixed them myself.
> 
> I do like REI's merchandise, though, and I generally find the sales staff 
> knowledgeable and helpful.
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 8:39 AM DHans  wrote:
>> Leah,
>> I don't want to disparage any bike mechanic but I wonder if REI has 
>> mechanics with much experience
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Leah Peterson]

1. You have given me hope that all will be well with new shifters!
2. Where is that darn speed racer? Must have decided he couldn’t handle the 
hill. And certainly not in this heat.
3. Front derailleur seems to be behaving this week. I don’t know that it had 
ever been used much. When I got it, I was in MN/ND and didn’t encounter hills 
that would have required me to use FD. Here in NV, I use that granny gear every 
day on the way home from school. My MIL (original owner of the Aquaclem) never 
shifted. Ever. So, you have a bike from late 2015 that has never been shifted 
until 2019. Hmm...could that be a factor?
4. More ghost-shifting today with the rear, and the FD chattered a bit and had 
moved itself forward, independently of me. I clicked it one click back, and it 
was silent again. It’s weird and I just don’t like it. New shifters are 
supposed to arrive by Saturday.

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 13, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Mark Roland  wrote:
> 
> My first gen Clementine, after experiencing ghost shifts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every once in a while, even good companies make bad decisions. I would say 
> get rid of those shifters. Silk purses, sows ears, etc. I also believe I had 
> an issue with the rear wheel/cassette mechanism that contributed to the poor 
> performance I experienced with the original drivetrain equipment spec'd on 
> these bikes. YMMV. Good luck and get that Aquaclem back up to snuff so you 
> can show that upstart speed racer who's boss.
> 
> The front is a double with a chain guard, so I don't the derailleur itself 
> should be an issue; wasn't for me. Try swapping out the shifters and see what 
> that does. Also, was this a problem that was not there a week ago, or did the 
> bike just not get run through its paces until recently?
> 
>> On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 5:21:35 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>> Well, that was an exercise in patience and fruitlessness.
>> 
>> The gracious pair of REI mechanics took me right in. They probably rolled 
>> their eyes when they saw me for the 2nd time in 3 days, but it couldn’t be 
>> helped. I told them the situation, reiterated some of what you guys told me, 
>> and one mechanic took the bike out for a spin. Meanwhile, I prayed he’d have 
>> the worst time out there so I wouldn’t I look like a fool who can’t operate 
>> friction shifters. 
>> 
>> The mechanic came back and said, “I had all kinds of problems!” The worst of 
>> all of them, he had decided, was that the chain was slapping into the 
>> fender, and obnoxiously. He decided they’d go over the shifting once again 
>> and shave the fender away from the chain. They told me to run my errands and 
>> return.
>> 
>> I did, and they said it was working better, and I marveled at the mechanic’s 
>> good, clean work of the shaved fender, and then we talked about Rivendell. 
>> They have had some customers come in needing bar end shifters and have been 
>> at a loss. I pointed them to the silver shifters on Riv’s site on their shop 
>> computer and then left the page open so they can look at the rest of 
>> Rivendell’s offerings later, ha. 
>> 
>> I went to pay my bill and they wouldn’t allow it and after a short argument, 
>> we decided I would find the Microshifter thumbies online and bring them for 
>> installation later. And then we happily parted ways.
>> 
>> I got to the parking lot and noticed the slightest of inclines. Ah, I 
>> thought, I’ll just make a lap or two. I was excited to try out the bike with 
>> the fender no longer interfering. I tried the shifters every which way...
>> 
>> It was as bad as it’s ever been. I just didn’t have the heart to go back in 
>> there and disrupt the mechanics’ work day again. Didn’t feel like dragging 
>> them out into 107 degree heat so they could be as frustrated as me. I put 
>> the Clementine back on the rack and pointed the van toward home. Something 
>> else must be going on with the front derailleur, though it shifts like a 
>> dream on the bike stand. Go figure!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Aug 13, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Front derailleur adjustment is not rocket science, and unless there is some 
>>> fundamental incompatibility between derailleur and crankset,* or between 
>>> derailleur and bottom bracket assembly spindle length*, or between 
>>> derailleur and shifter*, fixing a shifting problem is simply a matter of 
>>> proper adjustment, which any competent mechanic ought to be able to 
>>> accomplish.
>>> 
>>> The variables are throw (how far out and in the cage moves); height (the 
>>> cage has to clear the big chainring but not by too much), and angle (the 
>>> cage has to be aligned fore/aft with respect to the chainrings in such a 
>>> way as to move the chain on and off the chainrings efficiently; this 
>>> sometimes means that the cage should be very slightly offset to the 
>>> chainrings).
>>> 
>>> Can you post photos taken from directly above the front derailleur and 

Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Patrick Moore]

My opinion of REI's bike mechanic fell precipitously a few years ago when
the *head mechanic* told me that the rubbing pads of the Shimano disk
brakes on a bike newly bought for a friend were behaving normally and would
stop rubbing after they "wore in." Idiot. Fixed them myself.

I do like REI's merchandise, though, and I generally find the sales staff
knowledgeable and helpful.

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 8:39 AM DHans  wrote:

> Leah,
> I don't want to disparage any bike mechanic but I wonder if REI has
> mechanics with much experience
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[DHans]

Leah,
I don't want to disparage any bike mechanic but I wonder if REI has 
mechanics with much experience. I along with others would recommend new 
shifters as you have decided and take it to an LBS mechanic. Good luck!
Doug

On Thursday, August 15, 2019 at 11:29:25 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> You’re making sense to me with your fancy mechanic words, Garth!  I see 
> that too, now that you say it. I ordered the new shifters and will have the 
> mechanics look at the chain when I take the bike for shifter install. 
>
> The story gets stranger. I’ve ridden the bike to school the last 2 days, 
> so about 16 miles, and the front seems to be cooperating more often than 
> not, which makes me wonder if it just needed to be broken in? But the rear 
> is GHOST SHIFTING. I know how to compensate for that weird setup, but still 
> I get at least one spasm of unwanted shifting per trip and it is so 
> unnerving. God forbid I was actually riding in traffic! 
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 15, 2019, at 12:32 AM, Garth > 
> wrote:
>
>
> I noted in the photos of your bike the chain appears in the smallest rear 
> cogs and small ring and the chain doesn't have much tension. It could 
> possibly have a few too many links, and/or RD isn't up to the task. This is 
> all greek to you of course. It reminds me of how 2 people can speak the 
> same language about a subject and yet neither one knowing what one earth 
> the other is talking about.  So much for words.. 
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:27:55 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>>
>> Garth, can you figure out a way to make me such a work stand? Haha. I’m 
>> off to the internet to find the MicroShift friction shifters! 
>>
>>
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> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Leah, my guess is you got used to the way the front shifts compared to the 
quite different arrangement on Betz. I know from experience that those Silver 
cranks move the granny tighter to the frame than Sugino, so the shift over to 
it is going to be lazier. It's also going to be weak if you shift to the granny 
while in the smallest cog in back, a thing I never thought to ask about. It's 
better to get to the biggest 4 cogs in back (lowest 4 speeds) before 
downshifting the front. 

The rear is just lame, that will only be solved with your new shifters. You'll 
love 'em!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Leah Peterson]

You’re making sense to me with your fancy mechanic words, Garth!  I see that 
too, now that you say it. I ordered the new shifters and will have the 
mechanics look at the chain when I take the bike for shifter install. 

The story gets stranger. I’ve ridden the bike to school the last 2 days, so 
about 16 miles, and the front seems to be cooperating more often than not, 
which makes me wonder if it just needed to be broken in? But the rear is GHOST 
SHIFTING. I know how to compensate for that weird setup, but still I get at 
least one spasm of unwanted shifting per trip and it is so unnerving. God 
forbid I was actually riding in traffic! 

Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 15, 2019, at 12:32 AM, Garth  wrote:
> 
> 
> I noted in the photos of your bike the chain appears in the smallest rear 
> cogs and small ring and the chain doesn't have much tension. It could 
> possibly have a few too many links, and/or RD isn't up to the task. This is 
> all greek to you of course. It reminds me of how 2 people can speak the same 
> language about a subject and yet neither one knowing what one earth the other 
> is talking about.  So much for words.. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:27:55 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>> Garth, can you figure out a way to make me such a work stand? Haha. I’m off 
>> to the internet to find the MicroShift friction shifters! 
>> 
>>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Garth]

I noted in the photos of your bike the chain appears in the smallest rear 
cogs and small ring and the chain doesn't have much tension. It could 
possibly have a few too many links, and/or RD isn't up to the task. This is 
all greek to you of course. It reminds me of how 2 people can speak the 
same language about a subject and yet neither one knowing what one earth 
the other is talking about.  So much for words.. 



On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:27:55 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> Garth, can you figure out a way to make me such a work stand? Haha. I’m 
> off to the internet to find the MicroShift friction shifters! 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I still have the 1st Gen Sunrace shifters on my Clem and 2nd those that noted 
the ghost shifting in the rear my solution being the same as already 
mentioned... over/under shifting slightly and backing off to find the sweet 
spot.  Definitely found a few in between gears with the mid range clicks and 
just grew to accept it though I have 9sp index plans on the back burner anyway 
with spare parts around.  Haven’t experienced any such issues up front aside 
from a quick over shift or two that the threw the chain off the inner 
chainring.  It was a quick fix to reset the chain y hand and then adjusted the 
inner limit screw a hair. Definitely sounds like a unique issue and likely 
shifter-cable-derailleur specific, etc. as already suggested.

I’m sticking with the remaining stock parts for practical reasons and mere 
acceptance of their quirks until some other conditions finally push me to just 
do a complete rebuild of the Clem.

Best of luck with your continued refinements!

Brian Cole
Lawrenceville NJ

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Garth]

Now if you can find a way for your entire life to revolve around you riding 
your bike in a silly workstand you'll be all set  Ahahaahahaa  

A reasonably good mechanic with any pride and curiosity at this point would 
go with you outside while you watch them ride it in the lot. I'm surprised 
they at least didn't ask you to test if before you left. 

Maybe going back you'll they'll have another mechanic who won't release the 
bike until it's done right and tested/approved by you. 






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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Leah Peterson]

Well, that was an exercise in patience and fruitlessness.

The gracious pair of REI mechanics took me right in. They probably rolled their 
eyes when they saw me for the 2nd time in 3 days, but it couldn’t be helped. I 
told them the situation, reiterated some of what you guys told me, and one 
mechanic took the bike out for a spin. Meanwhile, I prayed he’d have the worst 
time out there so I wouldn’t I look like a fool who can’t operate friction 
shifters. 

The mechanic came back and said, “I had all kinds of problems!” The worst of 
all of them, he had decided, was that the chain was slapping into the fender, 
and obnoxiously. He decided they’d go over the shifting once again and shave 
the fender away from the chain. They told me to run my errands and return.

I did, and they said it was working better, and I marveled at the mechanic’s 
good, clean work of the shaved fender, and then we talked about Rivendell. They 
have had some customers come in needing bar end shifters and have been at a 
loss. I pointed them to the silver shifters on Riv’s site on their shop 
computer and then left the page open so they can look at the rest of 
Rivendell’s offerings later, ha. 

I went to pay my bill and they wouldn’t allow it and after a short argument, we 
decided I would find the Microshifter thumbies online and bring them for 
installation later. And then we happily parted ways.

I got to the parking lot and noticed the slightest of inclines. Ah, I thought, 
I’ll just make a lap or two. I was excited to try out the bike with the fender 
no longer interfering. I tried the shifters every which way...

It was as bad as it’s ever been. I just didn’t have the heart to go back in 
there and disrupt the mechanics’ work day again. Didn’t feel like dragging them 
out into 107 degree heat so they could be as frustrated as me. I put the 
Clementine back on the rack and pointed the van toward home. Something else 
must be going on with the front derailleur, though it shifts like a dream on 
the bike stand. Go figure!



Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 13, 2019, at 1:01 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> 
> Front derailleur adjustment is not rocket science, and unless there is some 
> fundamental incompatibility between derailleur and crankset,* or between 
> derailleur and bottom bracket assembly spindle length*, or between derailleur 
> and shifter*, fixing a shifting problem is simply a matter of proper 
> adjustment, which any competent mechanic ought to be able to accomplish.
> 
> The variables are throw (how far out and in the cage moves); height (the cage 
> has to clear the big chainring but not by too much), and angle (the cage has 
> to be aligned fore/aft with respect to the chainrings in such a way as to 
> move the chain on and off the chainrings efficiently; this sometimes means 
> that the cage should be very slightly offset to the chainrings).
> 
> Can you post photos taken from directly above the front derailleur and 
> showing (1) the cage centered on the big chainring, (2) the cage at maximum 
> outward extension, and (3) the cage furthest inward position? The problem 
> might be that the throw to the outside is inadequate -- ie, that the outer 
> limit screw is screwed down too much; or that the cage is mis-aligned with 
> the chainrings; or it could be that the cable is too loose, tho' your 
> mechanic should have fixed that.
> 
> * I recall long ago installing a Grafton triple (uber cool at the time) on my 
> 1992 XO-1, but having no clue whatsoever that I needed to replace the 122.5 
> mm spindle that came with the stock Specialized S-1 crankset with something 
> shorter. The Grafton crank sat way out there on that long spindle, and I 
> unscrewed and unscrewed and unscrewed that outer limit bolt, and still, the 
> front derailleur just would not shift to the big ring!
> 
> So I took it in to a shop, and I still cringe some 25 years later when I 
> recall the contempt in the shop rat's eyes as he explained in simple terms of 
> 1 syllable that the effing spindle was too effing long!
> 
> Patrick Moore, who did redeem himself in his own eyes by getting  early Dura 
> Ace 74?? fds to work with a 9-speed-era, external bb Bontrager Race Lite 
> triple (3 gold stars if you correctly explain how).
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Patrick Moore]

Front derailleur adjustment is not rocket science, and unless there is some
fundamental incompatibility between derailleur and crankset,* or between
derailleur and bottom bracket assembly spindle length*, or between
derailleur and shifter*, fixing a shifting problem is simply a matter of
proper adjustment, which any competent mechanic ought to be able to
accomplish.

The variables are throw (how far out and in the cage moves); height (the
cage has to clear the big chainring but not by too much), and angle (the
cage has to be aligned fore/aft with respect to the chainrings in such a
way as to move the chain on and off the chainrings efficiently; this
sometimes means that the cage should be very slightly offset to the
chainrings).

Can you post photos taken from directly above the front derailleur and
showing (1) the cage centered on the big chainring, (2) the cage at maximum
outward extension, and (3) the cage furthest inward position? The problem
might be that the throw to the outside is inadequate -- ie, that the outer
limit screw is screwed down too much; or that the cage is mis-aligned with
the chainrings; or it could be that the cable is too loose, tho' your
mechanic should have fixed that.

* I recall long ago installing a Grafton triple (uber cool at the time) on
my 1992 XO-1, but having no clue whatsoever that I needed to replace the
122.5 mm spindle that came with the stock Specialized S-1 crankset with
something shorter. The Grafton crank sat way out there on that long
spindle, and I unscrewed and unscrewed and unscrewed that outer limit bolt,
and still, the front derailleur just *would not* shift to the big ring!

So I took it in to a shop, and I still cringe some 25 years later when I
recall the contempt in the shop rat's eyes as he explained in simple terms
of 1 syllable *that the effing spindle was too effing long!*

Patrick Moore, who did redeem himself in his own eyes by getting  early
Dura Ace 74?? fds to work with a 9-speed-era, external bb Bontrager Race
Lite triple (3 gold stars if you correctly explain how).

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Andy Beichler]

Will it shift when not on a hill?  It may be that the limit screw for the 
lower gear needs a slight tweak or that the cable needs to be given just a 
bit more slack so that the derailleur can move a little more toward the 
smaller gear.

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 1:31:36 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
>
>
> Today I took the bike to school for the first time. At the slightest 
> incline, I realized I could not shift the front gears.

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

I contend that it's madness. Those maddening maddeners only came on the first 
run, then Riv switched to 9-speed with Microshifts swapped so the rear has a 
soft ratchet and the front is pure friction. MUCH better. 

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 11:40:44 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The finicky stuff was the rear cuz those clicks did in fact act kinda 
> indexy and would sometimes leave you stuck slightly between gears. Which 
> won't make a lick of sense to you if you've always used friction, so we can 
> yak later on the PM about all that madness.


It's not madness. Just overshift the clicky bits and backshift (slightly 
until at desired position) with the quiet friction bit. Ideally, the clicky 
bits should have intervals so small that you won't be stuck in between 
clicks, but small clicks just means you'll end up with higher manufacturing 
cost and higher sensitivity to dirt and neglect.

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

A bike mechanic who's used to all the shifty bits indexing properly might miss 
this btw. That double fd isn't designed to work with a triple, especially one 
with the low profile design Grant put into the Silver. It can be made to work, 
but it takes a bit of fiddling. 

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Bill Schairer]

It may be that the front derailleur is binding and needs some lubrication at 
all the pivot points.  With the shifter in position for the small ring, if you 
push the derailleur cage in with your finger (not while riding, of course) does 
the cage move inward some more?  Or, look to see if there is a gap between the 
stop and set screw.  Lube the pivot points and move the derailleur back and 
forth several times until it will easily move through its full range.

Bill S

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Joe Bernard]

Yep Garth, I think you're onto something there about derailer. Now that I've 
wandered over to Leah's Instagram to get a look at her bike, I'm realizing she 
has those Riv Silver cranks that mount the granny way tight to the frame. I'll 
betcha that fd as set perfectly parallel to the rings is bottoming out before 
the shift completes, so not providing enough force to kick the chain over. I'm 
guessing - I've done this before, possibly on a Clem - that moving the tail of 
the FD in a smidge to effectively move the derailer plates leftward would solve 
the problem.   

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues on 1st Gen Clementine

[Garth]

That sounds like a FD alignment issue Leah. Regardless of the shifters in 
question, I assume you mean the Sunrace "One at a time" ones, moving the 
chain from ring to ring should work easily as long as the FD is set up 
correctly and cable tension alright. If the FD is too high above the 
largest ring it will be sluggish to go up or down. I'd ask the next 
mechanic to ride it themselves, both before AND after any adjustments. 

Unless that is all working well, a new shifter won't do anything ! 

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Mystery - Help

[Joe Bernard]

Winner winner chicken dinner!

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Mystery - Help

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

Solved! 

After stopping in to chat at the amazing non-profit bike shop, the Community 
Cycling Center, I was tipped off that the issue could be caused by insufficient 
cable tension. I'm sort of embarrassed that I overlooked this one. I don't 
think I mentioned in my original post that I also changed from thumbies to bar 
ends, which meant I rerouted my cables. But I guess I thought it was dialed in! 
All it took was a little barrel adjusting and things are all set. 

Phew! I'm glad it was something simple!

Thanks to everyone who chimed in!

Tim O.
Portland, OR

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Mystery - Help

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

ascpgh: It's a Microshift Mezzo long cage derailleur. There is definitely 
some play in the pulleys, so I might start by replacing those. But I almost 
think that if I'm going that route I'll just get a new rear derailleur. The 
Altus seems like a pretty low cost test.

On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 7:48:03 AM UTC-7, comm...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> What rear derailleur are you using?  I don't have an answer to your 
> problem but am curious because I have had similar issues with my new to me 
> Atlantis.  I've now ridden it about 600 miles trying to get used to how it 
> came to me.  Shifting, particularly on the large cogs in back was very 
> finicky - sometimes noisy, sometimes skipping, sometimes hunting, sometimes 
> shifting on bumps.  Rideable but annoying.  Initially I figured I just 
> needed to adjust to new to me gear but patience wore thin.  I thought maybe 
> the Shimano Deore XT derailleur was tweeked as it is pretty marked up but 
> first I double checked the hanger alignment and tweeked it a bit.  May have 
> helped but still not great.  Checked again, still not satisfactory. 
>  Ditched the Silver right hand shifter as it constantly needed tightening 
> and installed an old Suntour barcon.  That was better but still not quite 
> right.  So, I was thinking the derailleur must be tweeked but then I 
> noticed that it would not hold any fine trimming in between ratchet clicks, 
> which seems bizarre to me. I finally decided to replace the rear derailleur 
> with a Suntour VxGT.  That appears to have solved my problem but I lose the 
> chain wrap of the XT (something I'm not too concerned about because I don't 
> like cross chaining anyway).  I had been wondering if anyone else had 
> similar problems and thought your problem might be related.  Is there some 
> adjustment on the XT that I am unaware of that allows infinite trimming?

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Mystery - Help

[Joe Bernard]

I'd check the derailer hanger first, but a slightly narrower chain certainly 
wouldn't hurt. You're friction shifting so the new combination may just be 
really sensitive to the pulleys hitting just the right spot. 

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Mystery - Help

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

Thanks for the tips. And for catching my mix up of high vs. low gears. I 
checked it out and it is a 9 speed chain. Wonder if I could buy a 10spd chain 
to give myself some more wiggle room in those high gears?

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Mystery - Help

[Ron Mc]

I'm running a very similar setup with Microshift indexed thumbies, and love 
them.  Two different 9sp chains have also worked great (slightly wider 
SRAM, and slightly thinner Connex).  This is the only indexed bike I've 
ever owned.  
Chainline is narrow and tight on this setup - I'm using one-size narrower 
BB than Jan recommended, expected to dial it with shims, but didn't need 
them.  
Still, Joe may be onto something here

Also running friction on 5-, 7-, and 8sp.  Running 8sp chains on the 5 and 
7, and a 9sp chain on the 8.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting a Rohloff from the stem

[Scott Henry]

As I look through that link in the first post :
http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/11/rohloff-hubs-with-drop-handlebars

I'm drawn to #14 the Lenker X-ACT Randonneur Vario Handlebar.

Has anyone ever seen these take-apart drop bars in person?   I only see
little bits of info online and its all in German, but I really like the
idea of the bars.I have an old Softride stem that I want to put
dropbars onto but its made so that curved bars won't twist around the stem
clamp (as in made for flat bars only)

Thanks for any help
Scott




On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Matthew Snyder mwsny...@gmail.com wrote:

 I mount my Rohloff shifter on the quill stem on my Bilenky with Albatross
 (recently converted to Bosco) bars, but not in the way it's shown in photo
 #4, where it sticks out on one side.  I just insert the quill through the
 shifter before it goes into the headset/steerer tube.  I don't have a great
 photo of this setup, but you can get the idea from this shot:

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/awilliams53/9278892005/

 It felt weird at first, trying to shift that way, because it's a
 hand/wrist motion you don't typically make on a bike.  But after about two
 weeks, I got used to it, and now I love it.  I've had that setup for about
 three years.  I like that it leaves my bars totally open for more hand
 positions -- the Rohloff shifter is pretty large, and managed to occupy
 more bar space than I liked.  On long rides (100 miles), the asymmetry of
 the hand positions on either side of the bar would really start to get to
 me.

 You do need a reasonable amount of quill real estate to make this method
 work, though.

 -- Matthew, Seattle


 On Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:24:16 PM UTC-7, BSWP wrote:

 I'm purt near serious about making up a new frame with a Rohloff IGH.
 Looking at the myriad ways of mounting the shifter, I'm drawn to putting it
 on the quill stem, like shown here, #11, on someone's Atlantis:

 http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/11/rohloff-hubs-with-
 drop-handlebars/

 This seems reasonable, and leaves me free to experiment with bars and
 brake levers. Anyone done this and liked it over the long haul?

 - Andrew, Berkeley

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[RBW] Re: Shifting a Rohloff from the stem

[Matthew Snyder]

I mount my Rohloff shifter on the quill stem on my Bilenky with Albatross 
(recently converted to Bosco) bars, but not in the way it's shown in photo 
#4, where it sticks out on one side.  I just insert the quill through the 
shifter before it goes into the headset/steerer tube.  I don't have a great 
photo of this setup, but you can get the idea from this shot:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/awilliams53/9278892005/

It felt weird at first, trying to shift that way, because it's a hand/wrist 
motion you don't typically make on a bike.  But after about two weeks, I 
got used to it, and now I love it.  I've had that setup for about three 
years.  I like that it leaves my bars totally open for more hand positions 
-- the Rohloff shifter is pretty large, and managed to occupy more bar 
space than I liked.  On long rides (100 miles), the asymmetry of the hand 
positions on either side of the bar would really start to get to me.  

You do need a reasonable amount of quill real estate to make this method 
work, though.

-- Matthew, Seattle
 

On Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:24:16 PM UTC-7, BSWP wrote:

 I'm purt near serious about making up a new frame with a Rohloff IGH. 
 Looking at the myriad ways of mounting the shifter, I'm drawn to putting it 
 on the quill stem, like shown here, #11, on someone's Atlantis:


 http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/11/rohloff-hubs-with-drop-handlebars/

 This seems reasonable, and leaves me free to experiment with bars and 
 brake levers. Anyone done this and liked it over the long haul?

 - Andrew, Berkeley


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[RBW] Re: Shifting a Rohloff from the stem

[Ginz]

Andrew,

I haven't tried this but I am surprised that folks run anything other than 
the Cane Creek or the Bertoud setup.  I run my Rohloff on a flat handlebar 
and takes quite a bit of twisting force to shift.  If I had to take my 
hands off the bars, I'd probably be wobbling all over the place.  Of 
course, my Rohloff bike is more of a trail bike which makes that problem 
worse.

You can always try it and change it later.  It looks like the stem-mounted 
setup won't cost you much if anything extra.

Ginz






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[RBW] Re: Shifting a Rohloff from the stem

[davidfrench]

I have the CoMotion shifter that comes in 31.8mm to attach close to the stem 
(on 31.8 bars of course). I really like this one, its sturdy and offer a really 
good grip. Maybe useless if you're thinking of a bike with quil stem tho...

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[RBW] Re: Shifting a Rohloff from the stem

[R Gonet]

Andrew,

Some years ago I ran a Rohloff on my Hilsen and tried both the Hubbub (#2) 
and the bar-end for quill stem (#11).  I preferred the bar-end method.  I 
don't use the drops that much, so the quill was much closer to my hand. 
 It's also less expensive and would be a good place to start since, as you 
point out it doesn't interfere with your experimentation with bars and 
brake levers.  Another thing that the writer does not mention about the 
Hubbub is that it slips into the end of your bar and extends the length by 
several inches, so you really need to saw off a piece of your bar end.  If 
you decide to go the Hubbub route, PM me and I'll see if I can still find 
my old one for you.




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[RBW] Re: Shifting a Rohloff from the stem

[blakcloud]

I remember seeing this setup on Flickr. Cruise through his photos to see 
the complete bike. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/andychurch/7302139292/in/photostream/

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[RBW] Re: Shifting a Rohloff from the stem

[Ginz]

Correction: Co Motion - not Cane Creek

On Monday, August 25, 2014 9:31:24 AM UTC-4, Ginz wrote:

 Andrew,

 I haven't tried this but I am surprised that folks run anything other than 
 the Cane Creek or the Bertoud setup.  I run my Rohloff on a flat handlebar 
 and takes quite a bit of twisting force to shift.  If I had to take my 
 hands off the bars, I'd probably be wobbling all over the place.  Of 
 course, my Rohloff bike is more of a trail bike which makes that problem 
 worse.

 You can always try it and change it later.  It looks like the stem-mounted 
 setup won't cost you much if anything extra.

 Ginz






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[RBW] Re: Shifting

[islaysteve]

Thanks Dave.  That's what I'm thinking too, about the two levers moving in the 
same direction.  I hope to give this a try before Spring.

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[RBW] Re: Shifting

[Dave Johnston]

I have no experience with Brifters on any bike, but I know its been done on 
Mustache bars before. I imagine the Shimano with two lever that both move 
inwards (or down on a M-bar) would work best. the thumb switch on some 
campy units might be hard to access.

-Dave J

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 2:26:28 PM UTC-5, islaysteve wrote:

 Dave, this is exactly the setup that I was going to suggest, as it is 
 something I'd like to try on my Bleriot.  I have 8spd Shimano brifters and 
 would like to try them with one of the bars that you mention.  Seems like 
 they would work; at least it's worth a try before investing in new shifters 
 and brake levers.  Do you have any personal experience with this setup? 
  Steve

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[RBW] Re: Shifting

[islaysteve]

Dave, this is exactly the setup that I was going to suggest, as it is something 
I'd like to try on my Bleriot.  I have 8spd Shimano brifters and would like to 
try them with one of the bars that you mention.  Seems like they would work; at 
least it's worth a try before investing in new shifters and brake levers.  Do 
you have any personal experience with this setup?  Steve

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[RBW] Re: Shifting

[Kellie Stapleton]

Well, I have a Sam Hillborne with friction, 9 speed. I do get some ghost 
shifts occasionally, but not a big deal. The major goal is getting an 
upright handlebar without having to spend a lot of money; changing 
derailleurs, cassettes etc.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 7:39:34 AM UTC-8, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 I have a Salsa Vaya which I'd like to make more Riv'ish as my daughter 
 plans to take it on a 2 month tour and wants upright bars. Currently is has 
 drops with Sram Apex derailleurs and brifters. Can I convert to thumb 
 shifters with a new handlebar? Of course I'd need new brake levers too.


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[RBW] Re: Shifting

[Joe Bernard]

How does your daughter feel about friction shifting? If she's happy with 
SRAM's click-brifters, you may want to set her up with flatbar Double-Tap. 
 
http://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/flatbar-10
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:28:37 AM UTC-8, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 Well, I have a Sam Hillborne with friction, 9 speed. I do get some ghost 
 shifts occasionally, but not a big deal. The major goal is getting an 
 upright handlebar without having to spend a lot of money; changing 
 derailleurs, cassettes etc.

 On Saturday, November 16, 2013 7:39:34 AM UTC-8, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 I have a Salsa Vaya which I'd like to make more Riv'ish as my daughter 
 plans to take it on a 2 month tour and wants upright bars. Currently is has 
 drops with Sram Apex derailleurs and brifters. Can I convert to thumb 
 shifters with a new handlebar? Of course I'd need new brake levers too.



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[RBW] Re: Shifting

[Dave Johnston]

How about putting the Brifters on a Albastache or for a bit more upright 
position the VO Porteur bar set up mustache like with the levers up front.

-Dave J

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 3:23:30 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

 How does your daughter feel about friction shifting? If she's happy with 
 SRAM's click-brifters, you may want to set her up with flatbar Double-Tap. 
  
 http://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/flatbar-10
  
 Joe Bernard
 Vallejo, CA.

 On Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:28:37 AM UTC-8, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 Well, I have a Sam Hillborne with friction, 9 speed. I do get some ghost 
 shifts occasionally, but not a big deal. The major goal is getting an 
 upright handlebar without having to spend a lot of money; changing 
 derailleurs, cassettes etc.

 On Saturday, November 16, 2013 7:39:34 AM UTC-8, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 I have a Salsa Vaya which I'd like to make more Riv'ish as my daughter 
 plans to take it on a 2 month tour and wants upright bars. Currently is has 
 drops with Sram Apex derailleurs and brifters. Can I convert to thumb 
 shifters with a new handlebar? Of course I'd need new brake levers too.



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[RBW] Re: Shifting

[Kellie Stapleton]

I think she's looking at the North Bend or Albatross bars.

On Saturday, November 16, 2013 4:12:09 PM UTC-8, Dave Johnston wrote:

 How about putting the Brifters on a Albastache or for a bit more upright 
 position the VO Porteur bar set up mustache like with the levers up front.

 -Dave J

 On Saturday, November 16, 2013 3:23:30 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

 How does your daughter feel about friction shifting? If she's happy with 
 SRAM's click-brifters, you may want to set her up with flatbar Double-Tap. 
  
 http://www.sram.com/sram/urban/products/flatbar-10
  
 Joe Bernard
 Vallejo, CA.

 On Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:28:37 AM UTC-8, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 Well, I have a Sam Hillborne with friction, 9 speed. I do get some ghost 
 shifts occasionally, but not a big deal. The major goal is getting an 
 upright handlebar without having to spend a lot of money; changing 
 derailleurs, cassettes etc.

 On Saturday, November 16, 2013 7:39:34 AM UTC-8, Kellie Stapleton wrote:

 I have a Salsa Vaya which I'd like to make more Riv'ish as my daughter 
 plans to take it on a 2 month tour and wants upright bars. Currently is 
 has 
 drops with Sram Apex derailleurs and brifters. Can I convert to thumb 
 shifters with a new handlebar? Of course I'd need new brake levers too.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Johnny Alien]

I realized afterwards that the cable was not loose. The positioning was fine 
but the derailluer would come out too far allowing the chain to jump off the 
large ring. It was 100% the h screw not being set correctly. It was way off and 
I don't see a way that shipping could have changed that. It looks like it 
wasn't adjusted properly at the store. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[qwerty]

Hmmm, there are several conflicting and confusing issues here

In your initial posting, you said you rode the bike for two days without
any shifting issues.  Then, you later say you had chain suck in the
first 2-5 miles of riding the bike.

Also, I'm sceptical that the high limit screw, which you said earlier
was causing the deraileur to rub the chain and chain guard (i.e. outer
ring, which sounds like a slight adjustment), would lead to a chain
suck insident causing damage to the paint on the chainstay.

One thing's for sure...chain suck sucks!  Especially on a new bike.
But don't feel alone, as I doubt there are many here who haven't had
that experience.

Mike G.

On 8/13/13, Johnny Alien johnnyal...@verizon.net wrote:
 I realized afterwards that the cable was not loose. The positioning was fine
 but the derailluer would come out too far allowing the chain to jump off the
 large ring. It was 100% the h screw not being set correctly. It was way off
 and I don't see a way that shipping could have changed that. It looks like
 it wasn't adjusted properly at the store.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Johnny Alien]

Yes I was exaggerating the miles. The first day I didn't do too many miles but 
the second day I did a few. I would say that the realistic mileage was closer 
to 20-30 before major chain suck. On the second day I would guess I did little 
shifting on the front. My point remains that its a ton of chainstay damage for 
the low miles. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[cyclotourist]

The bolt holding the derailer clamp on the downtube might have
loosened as well, causing the derailer to spin on the tube. They spin
down and clockwise. Just something else to check...

On 8/11/13, Zack zack...@gmail.com wrote:
 Another thing that could have happened is that when the bike was shipped,
 the FD cable/housing popped out of sitting flush in the frame, so the
 housing ferrule is sitting on the frame in a way that is different from how

 it should be.  This has happened to me when unboxing a bike.  Just a
 thought.


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David

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Zack]

Another thing that could have happened is that when the bike was shipped, 
the FD cable/housing popped out of sitting flush in the frame, so the 
housing ferrule is sitting on the frame in a way that is different from how 
it should be.  This has happened to me when unboxing a bike.  Just a 
thought.


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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Johnny Alien]

I was able to adjust the FD and now it shifts perfectly.  For the record 
there were two issues at play here.

1.  The FD was not adjust correctly.  It wasn't even close...I have no idea 
why it was this far out of whack.
2.  The shifters needed to be tightened.

The second issue is apparently very common and as noted it will need to be 
re-tightened from time to time.  RIvendell said they have though about 
including info that it would most likely need to be done and I have since 
told them that is a very good idea.  I actually question why, if they know 
it's a common issue, they would still only be thinking about including 
this info.

The first issue is actually what caused my chain suck. The worst part is 
that because it was not done right and because it caused chain suck the 
paint on my chainstay is severely messed up.  I am not someone who babies 
their bikes and wear is OK but when you get the paint destroyed on a $2500 
bike within the first 2-5 miles because of an assembly error it puts a sour 
taste in your mouth. I let them know that I was displeased but never heard 
anything back even as far as an apology.  When buying a Rivendell you agree 
to pay a premium for alot of parts as well and part of all of that is you 
expect pretty much the best the whole way down the line.

Things happen and I won't dwell on it but I did want to let people know 
that even though it is coming from Riv please do a full checkup of every 
part before taking it out.  Their assembly after shipping video does not 
mention anything past putting it together and while that may be OK for most 
people in my case I would have saved some heartache had I know to check out 
all the shifting as well.

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Larry H]

You will find they need to be tightened on occasion.  If you need to adjust the 
derailer, watch the Riv video on YouTube.  It can be a challenge at first, but 
once you get the hang of it, it's great to know you can do it yourself.  

Congrats on the new ride.

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Could the shifter be loose? Something similar happened to me the other day. 
The left/front barend shifter had gotten loose. A few turns with a (knife 
serving as a) screwdriver was all it took. Anything more complicated than 
that is sadly beyond my expertise. I fit into the willing but barely able 
category when it comes to these things.

Jay

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 7:48:14 PM UTC+3, Johnny Alien wrote:

 OK so I just got my new Hillborne this week.  It is completely friction 
 and I am using the IRD thumbshifters with the Deore rear derailer and the 
 CX front derailer.  It has a Sugino double crankset.  On day one it worked 
 wonderful and the shifting with the IRD thumbshifters was great.  I did a 
 few more hours the next day and it was fine that day as well. This morning 
 I go out for a ride and shifting the front gears resulted in the chain 
 getting jammed up around the front derailer. I got it loose again and from 
 that point on any attempt to shift the front resulted in the chain trying 
 to hang up or it just shifting back down to the smaller cog.  That was the 
 more frequent result.  Basically I would shift it to the higher cog and it 
 would act like it was going to do it and then drop down to the smaller cog. 
  This would also pull the shifter back into that position.  I figured I 
 would just do the ride on that cog and shift only the rear and about a mile 
 later the rear derailer starts acting the same way.  Anything I shift to 
 above the smallest cog would work for a few turns and then drop back down 
 to the small cog again and the shifter would flop to that position.  This 
 is a new bike so the cable and housing is all new as are the derailers.  I 
 am not sure where to start. I am not shy about working on my bike but I am 
 not smart with derailer issues.  Any ideas?


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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[William]

Johnny

The IRD thumbshifters have the internals of the Silver downtube shifters.  
The D-ring on top can be tightened with your fingers to add friction to the 
assembly.  That friction is necessary to hold your chain in gear.  Each 
derailer has a return spring that wants to move the chain to a smaller 
cog.  You move the shifter to pull the cable to pull the chain to the next 
larger cog, and you move the shifter the other way to release the cable so 
that spring can move the chain to the next smaller cog.  If the internal 
friction in the shifter is too weak, the spring in the derailer wins the 
little tug of war and moves the shifter without you noticing and shifts on 
its own.  Just tighten the D-rings on both shifters.  Too tight and it'll 
be hard to move the shifter or you'll break the plastic washer on top.  
This is standard care and feeding of a friction shifter.  You'll have to do 
it periodically, and it probably will get to be second nature and you'll do 
it while riding and not even notice yourself doing it.  They loosen 
themselves up, and it's nice to have JUST BARELY ENOUGH friction so they 
keep a light touch in both directions

That'll take care of it!

On Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:48:14 AM UTC-7, Johnny Alien wrote:

 OK so I just got my new Hillborne this week.  It is completely friction 
 and I am using the IRD thumbshifters with the Deore rear derailer and the 
 CX front derailer.  It has a Sugino double crankset.  On day one it worked 
 wonderful and the shifting with the IRD thumbshifters was great.  I did a 
 few more hours the next day and it was fine that day as well. This morning 
 I go out for a ride and shifting the front gears resulted in the chain 
 getting jammed up around the front derailer. I got it loose again and from 
 that point on any attempt to shift the front resulted in the chain trying 
 to hang up or it just shifting back down to the smaller cog.  That was the 
 more frequent result.  Basically I would shift it to the higher cog and it 
 would act like it was going to do it and then drop down to the smaller cog. 
  This would also pull the shifter back into that position.  I figured I 
 would just do the ride on that cog and shift only the rear and about a mile 
 later the rear derailer starts acting the same way.  Anything I shift to 
 above the smallest cog would work for a few turns and then drop back down 
 to the small cog again and the shifter would flop to that position.  This 
 is a new bike so the cable and housing is all new as are the derailers.  I 
 am not sure where to start. I am not shy about working on my bike but I am 
 not smart with derailer issues.  Any ideas?


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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Johnny Alien]

Thanks guys. I did know they were called chainrings but then just got my 
brain off track by thinking of what the rear ones were called which I 
assumed was cogs but I wasn't sure.  I tightened both of the D rings and 
that might be enough to fix the rear derailer but when I checked the cables 
as someone mentioned earlier the front cable is very looser in comparison 
to the rear one.  Is there an adjustment somewhere to make that tighter?

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Johnny Alien]

I forgot to mention that I can't really test it at the moment as it is 
storming like crazy.

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[RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Johnny Alien]

OK, I stand corrected.  Loose cable aside tightening the D rings seem to 
have corrected the issue on both derailers.  The front one can be 
overshifted in a way.  If you take it too far it will move out far enough 
to rub the chain and chain guard.  Easy enough to take care of as all you 
need to do is not move the shifter that far but just something I noted. 
 Past that it seems to be shifting OK now.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting Issues Question for the Mechanic Types

[Steve Palincsar]

On 07/27/2013 07:05 PM, Johnny Alien wrote:
OK, I stand corrected.  Loose cable aside tightening the D rings seem 
to have corrected the issue on both derailers.  The front one can be 
overshifted in a way.  If you take it too far it will move out far 
enough to rub the chain and chain guard.  Easy enough to take care of 
as all you need to do is not move the shifter that far but just 
something I noted.


Or, adjust the derailleur stop screw to keep it from moving that far.


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[RBW] Re: shifting a 9 speed cassette with a 7 speed barcon?

[Joe Bernard]

I can't explain the details well (or at all), but it sounds like you have 
the base the shifter mounts to in the wrong orientation. Try remounting 
with the little nubby part on the base in a different spot. 

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 1:22:01 AM UTC-7, Philip Williamson wrote:

 I just put a Suntour Cyclone derailleur and a 9 speed cluster on my Gravel 
 Roadster, which had been a singlespeed.
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/philipwilliamson/9089710197/

  I'm trying to shift it with a Shimano 7 speed barcon, and I'm only 
 getting 6 speeds out of it in friction. Is there a modification (I have a 
 dremel and  very little natural fear - is there a tab I can cut off?) I can 
 do, or should I swap in the front shifter? The front has a lot of range, 
 and it's redundant, since I'm shifting the front chainrings with a stick 
 right now.
 Do I need to get a 9 speed shifter on there? Everything I see in a cursory 
 search is people trying to shift fewer cogs with a wider range shifter. 
 (how is that even challenging?)

 I'm using a Suntour bar-end shifter on my mountain bike's 9 speed cluster 
 pretty successfully, which is why I thought this experiment might work.

 Philip
 www.biketinker.com


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[RBW] Re: shifting a 9 speed cassette with a 7 speed barcon?

[bobish]

If Joe has diagnosed the problem correctly (and I've seen this happen countless 
times with these shifters, so it's quite possible it's the case here as well), 
then see below.
---
Posted by E.B. at 
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/aIpahOwpd7o

7/23/12 

Tim, these are directions I've posted elsewhere to walk people through the same 
issue you appear to be experiencing.
This is from my experience. Note that these instructions assume you have the 
common top normal type of RD.  If low normal, reverse the HIGH  LOW in the 
following.

Once you incorrectly install and subsequently attempt to operate the improperly 
assembled barcon shifter, you've got to get back to point A. Shimano's 
directions for installation of new barcons even instruct the user to not 
operate or fiddle with the assembly prior to new installation. Unfortunately, 
those same instructions don't describe what exactly will happen if you do 
fiddle with them or the procedure to correct.

To restore the lever range and indexing action, you use the lever boss cover 
as a *key* to wind the lever back to its original position. Merely rotating the 
lever boss cover to its correct position won't necessarily correct the problem.

From recollection, here's how I have done this:
1. Remove or disconnect cable
2. Remove the lever and boss cover from shifter body
3. Install boss cover in correct orientation
4. Put lever in place on stud or axle, but in the LOW position; that is, with 
the lever nearly parallel to the ground.
5. With either the screw in place or with your thumb  finger securely holding 
the lever against the boss cover, shift the lever to the HIGH position.
6. Repeat this action, if necessary, until the mechanism is restored to its 
original position. You'll know this when it won't rotate with gentle force.
7. Install the lever in the HIGH position and secure mounting screw. You should 
now be able to operate the barcon through the full range of indexing detents.
8. Re-install cable and adjust tension as necessary.

Hope this helps.

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[RBW] Re: shifting a 9 speed cassette with a 7 speed barcon?

[Philip Williamson]

Aha! This seems very probable, and I'll get into it tonight. Thanks a ton 
for yours and Joe's input. 

Philip
www.biketinker.com

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 2:19:37 AM UTC-7, bobish wrote:

 If Joe has diagnosed the problem correctly (and I've seen this happen 
 countless times with these shifters, so it's quite possible it's the case 
 here as well), then see below.
 ---
 Posted by E.B. at 
 https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/aIpahOwpd7o

 7/23/12 

 Tim, these are directions I've posted elsewhere to walk people through the 
 same issue you appear to be experiencing.
 This is from my experience. Note that these instructions assume you have 
 the common top normal type of RD.  If low normal, reverse the HIGH  
 LOW in the following.

 Once you incorrectly install and subsequently attempt to operate the 
 improperly assembled barcon shifter, you've got to get back to point A. 
 Shimano's directions for installation of new barcons even instruct the user 
 to not operate or fiddle with the assembly prior to new installation. 
 Unfortunately, those same instructions don't describe what exactly will 
 happen if you do fiddle with them or the procedure to correct.

 To restore the lever range and indexing action, you use the lever boss 
 cover as a *key* to wind the lever back to its original position. Merely 
 rotating the lever boss cover to its correct position won't necessarily 
 correct the problem.

 From recollection, here's how I have done this:
 1. Remove or disconnect cable
 2. Remove the lever and boss cover from shifter body
 3. Install boss cover in correct orientation
 4. Put lever in place on stud or axle, but in the LOW position; that is, 
 with the lever nearly parallel to the ground.
 5. With either the screw in place or with your thumb  finger securely 
 holding the lever against the boss cover, shift the lever to the HIGH 
 position.
 6. Repeat this action, if necessary, until the mechanism is restored to 
 its original position. You'll know this when it won't rotate with gentle 
 force.
 7. Install the lever in the HIGH position and secure mounting screw. You 
 should now be able to operate the barcon through the full range of indexing 
 detents.
 8. Re-install cable and adjust tension as necessary.

 Hope this helps.



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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues with TA Pro 5 Vis cranks/rings

[MichaelH]

I can confirm this.  I have replaced 105 derailleurs with campy CD  on
both doubles (48/34)  (44/30)  a triple (48/34/26) and have gotten
significantly improved shifting.  The campy feels a little slow on the
tandem(50/36/24) but there is a lot more stress on the chain with a
tandem.

Michael

On Jun 19, 11:50 am, David Faller dfal...@charter.net wrote:

  I don't know from experience, but I've read that Campy
 FD's are one of the more forgiving derailleurs.

 On 6/18/2010 9:12 PM, XO-1.org Rough Riders wrote:



  Hi:

  I've never gotten suitable shifting with a TA Pro 5 Vis crankset with
  32/46 rings. This is mated with Shimano 9-speed on the rear (11x34)
  and bar-end shifters (Shimano 9 also). First I had it set up with a
  Suntour Superbe Pro front derailleur and it wanted to overshift once
  every 25 to 50 shifts, no matter how I adjusted the derailleur.

  The local bike guru, who knows stuff old and new, suggested a modern
  front derailleur, as they are designed to shifter narrower 9/10-speed
  chains, whereas the old Suntour derailleur was meant for 6/7-speed
  chains. The thought being: Maybe the old derailleur's cage is wider
  because the chains for which it was intended were wider; now that
  wider cage made it throw a narrow chain too far. That make some
  sense.

  Well, I've installed a brand new Ultegra 10-spd front derailleur and
  it seems to keep the chain on either one ring or the other, and it
  downshifts fine, but it takes a major tug on the shifter to get it to
  move the chain to the big ring. In fact, when I upshift, what it's
  trying to do is shove the chain between the rings, into the hole
  between the five arms of the right crank, in the sizable vertical gap,
  or hole, created by the 14 tooth difference in ring size. Of course,
  modern rings, with their ramps and pins, would probably toss that
  chain right up onto the big ring instantaneously. But I like the low Q-
  factor of these TA arms (this is actually my GF's bike I am talking
  about; she's 5'4 and prefer the narrower tread even more than I do),
  plus the ring sizes available are preferable to a compact design.

  Yes, the derailleur is mounted as low as possible abov the top rights.
  In fact, the front derailleur cage is so long, it almost hits the
  right chainstay down at the bottom. I find that odd since a 46 tooth
  big ring is not small, at all. I don't see how this could work on a
  crank with a smaller big ring.

  Any thoughts or suggestions?

  BTW, sorry I don't seem to have a good shot of the bike, or especially
  its drivetrain online, though you can see her with the bike (gold 1974
  Williams converted to 650B wheels) in front of the Nate Harrison Grade
  sign near the bottom of this post:

 http://www.xo-1.org/2008/12/rough-riding-northern-san-diego-county.html

  We're headed out to Ramona / Black Canyon tomorrow and I'll get some
  shots of the parts in question then, in case that might help any of
  you help me assay the situation. Here's the blog report of a semi-
  similar version of the riding we're doing tomorrow:

 http://www.xo-1.org/2009/01/rough-riding-north-eastern-san-diego.html

  Thanks.

  - Chris Kostman
  La Jolla, CA
 http://www.adventurecorps.com
 http://www.XO-1.org
 http://www.the508.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues with TA Pro 5 Vis cranks/rings

[James Warren]

I got used to assembling my own bikes and to be economical, I got used to using 
any old triple FD, usually a Shimano. But when I ordered my AHH from Rivendell 
a few years ago, I decided to pull out the stops and have Mark assemble it. I 
needed a FD and trusted Riv's selection, and they went with a Campy triple 
model called the Champ.

That is the smoothest and fasted shifting front shifter I've ever used. I never 
was picky about FD performance and can still tolerate slow, laborious shifts, 
but my experience has definitely been:

Shimano: pretty good, just deal with it
The one time I've used Campy: outstanding

-Jim


-Original Message-
From: MichaelH mhech...@gmail.com
Sent: Jun 19, 2010 12:38 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Shifting issues with TA Pro 5 Vis cranks/rings

I can confirm this.  I have replaced 105 derailleurs with campy CD  on
both doubles (48/34)  (44/30)  a triple (48/34/26) and have gotten
significantly improved shifting.  The campy feels a little slow on the
tandem(50/36/24) but there is a lot more stress on the chain with a
tandem.

Michael

On Jun 19, 11:50 am, David Faller dfal...@charter.net wrote:

  I don't know from experience, but I've read that Campy
 FD's are one of the more forgiving derailleurs.

 On 6/18/2010 9:12 PM, XO-1.org Rough Riders wrote:



  Hi:

  I've never gotten suitable shifting with a TA Pro 5 Vis crankset with
  32/46 rings. This is mated with Shimano 9-speed on the rear (11x34)
  and bar-end shifters (Shimano 9 also). First I had it set up with a
  Suntour Superbe Pro front derailleur and it wanted to overshift once
  every 25 to 50 shifts, no matter how I adjusted the derailleur.

  The local bike guru, who knows stuff old and new, suggested a modern
  front derailleur, as they are designed to shifter narrower 9/10-speed
  chains, whereas the old Suntour derailleur was meant for 6/7-speed
  chains. The thought being: Maybe the old derailleur's cage is wider
  because the chains for which it was intended were wider; now that
  wider cage made it throw a narrow chain too far. That make some
  sense.

  Well, I've installed a brand new Ultegra 10-spd front derailleur and
  it seems to keep the chain on either one ring or the other, and it
  downshifts fine, but it takes a major tug on the shifter to get it to
  move the chain to the big ring. In fact, when I upshift, what it's
  trying to do is shove the chain between the rings, into the hole
  between the five arms of the right crank, in the sizable vertical gap,
  or hole, created by the 14 tooth difference in ring size. Of course,
  modern rings, with their ramps and pins, would probably toss that
  chain right up onto the big ring instantaneously. But I like the low Q-
  factor of these TA arms (this is actually my GF's bike I am talking
  about; she's 5'4 and prefer the narrower tread even more than I do),
  plus the ring sizes available are preferable to a compact design.

  Yes, the derailleur is mounted as low as possible abov the top rights.
  In fact, the front derailleur cage is so long, it almost hits the
  right chainstay down at the bottom. I find that odd since a 46 tooth
  big ring is not small, at all. I don't see how this could work on a
  crank with a smaller big ring.

  Any thoughts or suggestions?

  BTW, sorry I don't seem to have a good shot of the bike, or especially
  its drivetrain online, though you can see her with the bike (gold 1974
  Williams converted to 650B wheels) in front of the Nate Harrison Grade
  sign near the bottom of this post:

 http://www.xo-1.org/2008/12/rough-riding-northern-san-diego-county.html

  We're headed out to Ramona / Black Canyon tomorrow and I'll get some
  shots of the parts in question then, in case that might help any of
  you help me assay the situation. Here's the blog report of a semi-
  similar version of the riding we're doing tomorrow:

 http://www.xo-1.org/2009/01/rough-riding-north-eastern-san-diego.html

  Thanks.

  - Chris Kostman
  La Jolla, CA
 http://www.adventurecorps.com
 http://www.XO-1.org
 http://www.the508.com

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues with TA Pro 5 Vis cranks/rings

[amoll68]

Chris,

I'm running a TA 46-30 on my AHH, and have ended up with an old
Simplex SLJ. This setup does require a bit more shifting finesse than
most modern chain sets, but it's worth it to me. It's been awhile
since I've dropped or thrown a chain - probably due to more precise
technique by the operator. I've got the feel now, but when it's safe,
I'll glance down for a peek while shifting. The last few times I threw
the chain (again, this was awhile ago), I could feel it right away -
stopped pedaling before the chain was all the way off, moved the shift
lever slightly, and back pedaled the chain right back onto the big
ring. Be smooth and relax - finesse.

I have an old Cyclo catalog from the 30s that basically states that
their derailleurs work great - good shifting is up to the technique of
the operator. Then they go on to practically admonish that if you're
not satisfied, you just need to practice more. I think it's a great
little technical article - quite amusing.

Final caveat: I enjoy operating old construction and farm equipment -
I think double clutching is fun, Brownie 5+4s are neat, etc.

Here's my setup:  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39151...@n07/4377862622/in/set-72157622960184871/

Good luck,
Alex

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues with TA Pro 5 Vis cranks/rings

[stevep33]

I'm using Suntour Superbe Pro FD's with my 46//30 TA's.  I've
overshifted small to big a couple of times even though the limit seems
well adjusted on the bike stand.  I'd probably opt for a Campy FD
because of the pancake flat shape and performance - is there an online
vender that sells the campy models people like?.   Though it's hard to
justify replacing the pretty Suntour FDs because I rarely make FD
shifts, so the overshift is even more rare.  I also like that the
Suntour allows pretty good chain line clearance over almost the entire
cassette range for both chainrings.

The FSA Gossamer FD has also worked well for me.

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[RBW] Re: Shifting issues with TA Pro 5 Vis cranks/rings

[XO-1.org Rough Riders]

Hi all:

Thanks for your comments and suggestions. Much appreciated!

The derailleur I installed at first yesterday was designed for
triples, and really wants to shove the chain UNDER the big ring when
upshifting (into one of those five gaps). So this morning, just before
the ride, I installed a brand new Dura Ace 10-spd front derailleur
designed for doubles. It has basically flat cage plates on it (as did
the Suntour Superbe Pro this bike used to have). The shifting is OK,
but it takes a lot of trimming to keep it from rubbing on one side or
another as the chain works its way across the cassette.

But the real issue is that now, on some downshifts from the big to
small ring, the chain will ride on top of the small ring's teeth,
instead of engaging the teeth. It's almost like the chain expects
the small ring to be closer to the big ring. This isn't the first time
I've seen or encountered this problem. Previously I asked the crank
seller (V-O) about this situation, but was told they'd never heard of
it. But I believe I have seen reference to 9- and 10-speed spacers/
washers for these cranks, I think at the Rene Herse site. It would
make sense that a narrower chain would need its chainrings closer
together than a 6/7/8-speed chain. Does anybody have any knowledge of
such spacers / issues?

Here's a blog report from today with photos, plus my review of the
Garmin 310xt GPS watch / computer / thingamajig, including a link to
the Garmin Connect page about the ride with map, elevation profile and
much more:

http://www.xo-1.org/2010/06/rough-riding-north-eastern-san-diego_19.html

Yours in sport,
Chris Kostman
La Jolla, CA
http://www.adventurecorps.com
http://www.the508.com
http://www.XO-1.org

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