[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
I feel that it is not something so uncommon. As Volker said, many other communities have some thing like this ... ... pirates had it, too. 'the code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules' - Captain Barbossa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi! Am Freitag, 28. November 2014 04:26:44 UTC+1 schrieb Andrew: I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you). +1 If a substantial part of our community would share that attitude, we'd be in serious trouble, I am afraid. For creating a conflict, it is in some cases sufficient to have a single person who had have a bad day or didn't sleep enough, causing a temporary misjudgement. However, for keeping a conflict boiling, it is in all cases necessary to have several people who are committing continued misjudgements. And that's what the mentioned attitude achieves. And unfortunately, a code of conduct can not prevent a temporary misjudgement, but it may encourage the mentioned attitude, making conflicts a lot more violent. In other words, if you are able to see a legitimate request behind a wall of behaviour that seems inappropriate to you, then you should answer that request. It is fine if you are not able to, but then please don't answer at all. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:40:42AM -0800, Travis Scrimshaw wrote: ... pirates had it, too. 'the code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules' - Captain Barbossa ROTFL :-) Welcome aboard the Black Sage! Nicolas -- Nicolas M. Thiéry Isil nthi...@users.sf.net http://Nicolas.Thiery.name/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Simon and all, If a substantial part of our community would share that attitude, we'd be in serious trouble, I am afraid. For creating a conflict, it is in some cases sufficient to have a single person who had have a bad day or didn't sleep enough, causing a temporary misjudgement. However, for keeping a conflict boiling, it is in all cases necessary to have several people who are committing continued misjudgements. And that's what the mentioned attitude achieves. And unfortunately, a code of conduct can not prevent a temporary misjudgement, but it may encourage the mentioned attitude, making conflicts a lot more violent. In other words, if you are able to see a legitimate request behind a wall of behaviour that seems inappropriate to you, then you should answer that request. It is fine if you are not able to, but then please don't answer at all. I think the whole conundrum is not about one person having a bad day, but repeated behaviors that many different people perceive as offensive and are turned away by. That, to a community of volunteers, is dangerous! It is counter productive and takes a lot of positive energy away. Viviane mentioned already once the situation where someone opens a thread to discuss something, but then gets attacked and/or the discussion disintegrates. Then what do you do if you still want to discuss these issues? Since you seem to have very strong opinions how things should be done and I am in such a situation, I would like to know how should this be handled? Best, Anne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi, On 2014-11-27, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com wrote: Also, what is felt as loud by one is not loud for another, so you cannot just hit everybody whenever that happens. Different cultures.. We certainly saw that in the recent posts. +1 In another post, someone referred to a code of conduct as an objective set of rules to adhere to. My answer was that social rules aren't objective. To slightly elaborate on it: Assume that the rule Don't exclude people based on gender or cultural background was part of the code. Well, sounds reasonable and objective, right? All very fine. But as soon as person B wants to APPLY the objective rule to a concrete situation in order to decide whether person A has violated the rule, person B needs to *interprete* person A's statements; s/he needs to make more or less educated guesses on the motivation behind A's statements; and so on. And this whole interpretation process is not objective at all. This, in particular, holds in a pluralistic society such as the one formed by Sage developers. Based on different cultural backgrounds, B may wrongly assume a bad motivation/intention of A's statements. Hence, as soon as B starts to publicly blame A based on his/her wrong assumptions, s/he is in fact violating the very same rule that s/he pretends to use against A. Put differently: The attempt to enforce the code of conduct will sooner or later constitute a violation of the code of conduct. And in fact, it has already happened in this thread---sooner than I thought. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Thursday, 27 November 2014 18:45:44 UTC+11, Simon King wrote: Hi Andrew, On 2014-11-27, Andrew andrew...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Speaking only for myself, it is exactly this sort of post that I would like to avoid. Why can't the person who gets loud taker a breather, calm down and post something more sensible tomorrow? Because s/he is, for whatever reason, not able to. S/he is doing a mistake. But this can not be an excuse for people to commit the same mistake, even though they would be able to avoid it. Hi Simon, You seem to be saying that if, for some reason, person A can't help it then it's OK but person B should not respond in the same way. Whilst I agree that this can happen, what if Person B is unable, for whatever reason, to contain themselves? Then, in response, Person A is again unable to contain themselves, for whatever reason, ... Where does it stop? Wouldn't it be better if Person A just learned, for whatever reason, to contain themselves? I think it is hypocritical to say that it is OK for some one to write loud posts and then to ask anyone who gets put off by this to take a break. If the loud person was considerate from the start none of this would be necessary. I think it is hypocritical to say that it is OK for anyone to become loud and inconsiderate if one other person was. I agree entirely. Andrew -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Andrew, On 2014-11-27, Andrew andrew.mat...@gmail.com wrote: Because s/he is, for whatever reason, not able to. S/he is doing a mistake. But this can not be an excuse for people to commit the same mistake, even though they would be able to avoid it. Hi Simon, You seem to be saying that if, for some reason, person A can't help it then it's OK but person B should not respond in the same way. Whilst I agree that this can happen, what if Person B is unable, for whatever reason, to contain themselves? Then, in response, Person A is again unable to contain themselves, for whatever reason, ... Where does it stop? You seem to be saying that a substantial part of the members of our society shows anti-social behaviour. I do not share that rather pessimistic point of view. Anyway, if we really were in the situation that you seem to assume, then of course it won't stop. The society would be doomed. And a code of conduct couldn't change it, IMHO. Wouldn't it be better if Person A just learned, for whatever reason, to contain themselves? Yes, it would. But a code of conduct is likely to not achieve it. To the contrary, the fake authority of a code of conduct could lead some people to engage in anti-social behaviour, since they can instrument the code of conduct to bash or bully other members of the society. This is not just a theory. Dima has mentioned that the situation reminds him what he has experienced in soviet union. And early in this thread, I have mentioned that it reminds me what is happening in far too many German schools. Astoundingly, some people here seem to say that a code of conduct is a very American thing, while others seem to say that a code of conduct is a very stalinist instrument... Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:53:39 PM UTC, Dima Pasechnik wrote: To the contary, I have seen way too much of this shit in my youth, FYI. Laws of the pioneers of the Soviet Union, Moral codex of a young builder of Communism, Funny that you mention it, but I always noticed many parallels between Russia and the US. They even both get quite mad real soon if you compare them to the other side. In any case, that is just another example of cultural baggage. Which is neither good nor bad, its just how things are. But we are using English to communicate, so we have to use the existing concepts in the English language to communicate. And its known as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct, trying to invent another name for it just means that the majority will misunderstand your intentions. Definition from wikipedia/IFAC: Principles, values, standards, or rules of behavior that guide the decisions, procedures and systems of an organization in a way that (a) contributes to the welfare of its key stakeholders, and (b) respects the rights of all constituents affected by its operations. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On 2014-11-27, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote: --=_Part_139_1145915590.1417081457926 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_Part_140_769974834.1417081457926 --=_Part_140_769974834.1417081457926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:53:39 PM UTC, Dima Pasechnik wrote: To the contary, I have seen way too much of this shit in my youth, FYI. Laws of the pioneers of the Soviet Union, Moral codex of a young builder of Communism, Funny that you mention it, but I always noticed many parallels between Russia and the US. They even both get quite mad real soon if you compare them to the other side. I don't know, I lived in SU, and I lived in a country called Russia for about 3 months or so. I don't relate to them much any more. In any case, that is just another example of cultural baggage. Which is neither good nor bad, its just how things are. Rather, it's another example of psychological trauma. It has little to do with culture (well, a lot with lack of culture). But we are using English to communicate, so we have to use the existing concepts in the English language to communicate. I don't see how language is relevant here. These issues are language-agnostic, IMHO. And its known as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct, trying to invent another name for it just means that the majority will misunderstand your intentions. Definition from wikipedia/IFAC: Principles, values, standards, or rules of behavior that guide the decisions, procedures and systems of an organization in a way that (a) contributes to the welfare of its key stakeholders, and (b) respects the rights of all constituents affected by its operations. The following fits quite well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Code_of_the_Builder_of_Communism -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Thursday, November 27, 2014 12:25:52 PM UTC, Dima Pasechnik wrote: In any case, that is just another example of cultural baggage. Which is neither good nor bad, its just how things are. Rather, it's another example of psychological trauma. It has little to do with culture (well, a lot with lack of culture). There are multiple meanings to culture, I meant the anthropological sense. Not: Theater and opera. I don't see how language is relevant here. These issues are language-agnostic, IMHO. How is it language-agnostic, we had two weeks that were mostly discussion about language. It should/should not be called code, phrased differently, imperative vs. voluntary, written or unwritten. None of these change anything in the message, surely we agree on being nice to each other. Definition from wikipedia/IFAC: Principles, values, standards, or rules [...] The following fits quite well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Code_of_the_Builder_of_Communism Sure, principles can be good or bad. We all have (written or unwritten) principles, values, standards, and rules. Whats your point? From the organizational perspective, it makes it very hard to argue (in writing / on a mailing list) about anything that is unwritten/implicit and/or that does not use standard terminology. Sure there are a bunch of fine points in the English language that might cause misunderstandings (especially if you are not a native English speaker), starting with what a code of conduct is and is not. But that really applies to any concept. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Volker, On 2014-11-27, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote: Definition from wikipedia/IFAC: Principles, values, standards, or rules of behavior that guide the decisions, procedures and systems of an organization in a way that (a) contributes to the welfare of its key stakeholders, and (b) respects the rights of all constituents affected by its operations. Would the official stalinist definition of a code of conduct be any different? Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:28:28 PM UTC, Simon King wrote: What you seem to not understand, Volker, is that Sage has grown far beyond a US project. So, a code of conduct is an American thing is not a good argument for having a code of conduct. But we do communicate in English, so we can't really avoid using anglosaxon organizational concepts. Also, during the lengthy discussion there were very few concrete actionable suggestions for changes. Yes there was. The suggestion to delete the code of conduct was very concrete. And that was one of the options in the vote. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Volker, On 2014-11-27, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote: Sure, principles can be good or bad. We all have (written or unwritten) principles, values, standards, and rules. Whats your point? I guess that's *not* the point. I didn't have time to read the page on the communist code, but I suppose that the principles there are more or less sound. The problems arise as soon as someone applies the abstract principles to real life, and does so with bad intention. So, it is not the principles that are good or bad. It is the application of these principles which is good or bad. The application can be codified (by laws which can be good or bad) or habitual. And I suppose we all know that the same principles can be interpreted in largely different ways. In any case, I know from experience at various schools that the deliberate use of a code of conduct as a weapon can nuke a society. Anti-social behaviour that can base itself on fake objectivity (aka code of conduct) is worse than plain anti-social behaviour, IMHO. Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Dima, On 2014-11-27, Dima Pasechnik dimp...@gmail.com wrote: The following fits quite well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Code_of_the_Builder_of_Communism Thank you for the link. It indeed has a considerable overlap with other codes of conduct. Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Volker, On 2014-11-27, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote: But we do communicate in English, so we can't really avoid using anglosaxon organizational concepts. I refuse the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Moreover, we do not communicate in English as native speakers. So, I absolutely see no reason why our Lingua Franca should influence our mindset or our organisational structure. Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Thursday, November 27, 2014 1:50:06 PM UTC, Simon King wrote: I refuse the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Please define which version you are talking about. Nobody takes linguistic determinism serious nowadays. But linguistic and cultural relativism are a thing whether you like it or not. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
But we do communicate in English, so we can't really avoid using anglosaxon organizational concepts. I am in India right now. Here, indians often speak english with each other as it is often their only common language. Of course, they drive on the left. But I expect that you would find quite some differences between London and New Delhi. I believe that it disproves your claim: 1) India exists 2) They are not bound to english/american concepts because they use the language Nathann P.S. : If many people agree that the language of sage-devel determinates our organisation, we must have a vote to decide which language we should use here. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On 2014-11-27, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote: Nobody takes linguistic determinism serious nowadays. But linguistic and cultural relativism are a thing whether you like it or not. AFAIK the relativism only (or at least: mainly) holds for native speakers. So, you have not answered to my argument that using a Lingua Franca is absolutely no reason to adopt organisational principles that seem fashionable to native speakers of that language. Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Thursday, November 27, 2014 2:10:59 PM UTC, Simon King wrote: AFAIK the relativism only (or at least: mainly) holds for native speakers. So, you have not answered to my argument that using a Lingua Franca is absolutely no reason to adopt organisational principles that seem fashionable to native speakers of that language. That is precisely my point, you see no reason because you are a native German speaker and draw from a different cultural background. The relativism always applies, it just applies relative to a different point of reference. Again, thats not necessarily good or bad. What matters is what will be understood by most, and at least the vote gives you one data point. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Volker, Am Donnerstag, 27. November 2014 15:28:38 UTC+1 schrieb Volker Braun: On Thursday, November 27, 2014 2:10:59 PM UTC, Simon King wrote: AFAIK the relativism only (or at least: mainly) holds for native speakers. So, you have not answered to my argument that using a Lingua Franca is absolutely no reason to adopt organisational principles that seem fashionable to native speakers of that language. That is precisely my point, you see no reason because you are a native German speaker Wrong. Even as a native English speaker, I think I would be able to understand that the conclusion English language = adopting certain organisational principles without being susceptible for stalinism is incorrect. Again, thats not necessarily good or bad. What matters is what will be understood by most, and at least the vote gives you one data point. That's fine, as long as you are just trying to explain the outcome of the vote to me (no need to do so, I fully understand the influence of personal experiences and cultural background on the voting). However, if you claim that the fact that a majority of Sage devs is English native speakers implies that there will be no strong minority abusing a code of conduct in a stalinistic way, then I am rather not convinced. Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
http://wiki.sagemath.org/CodeOfConduct It is funny: someone called it the Code of Contact on this link (I changed it since it referred to the original)! Since so many people are discussing the name and the oppressive meaning it has for them, we could indeed do a play on words! Also, Simon, in your way of doing things, in my experience if one does not respond to an inappropriate message, then others will and discussions go in all sorts of directions. So if a discussion was kind of shut down by a rude post, how should one proceed? I would like to try that experiment! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Also, Simon, in your way of doing things, in my experience if one does not respond to an inappropriate message, then others will and discussions go in all sorts of directions. So if a discussion was kind of shut down by a rude post, how should one proceed? I would like to try that experiment! It is not always so black and white, I believe. You can try to extract the technical information from the rude post, if there is any, and answer to that. But I don't think that you often have a peaceful discussion and, all of a sudden, 'a rude post'. Usually the tension grows progressively (with a dark music in the background) on both sides for a while before that happens. Well. Methinks. Nathann -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
2014-11-27 18:08 GMT+01:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com: Also, Simon, in your way of doing things, in my experience if one does not respond to an inappropriate message, then others will and discussions go in all sorts of directions. So if a discussion was kind of shut down by a rude post, how should one proceed? I would like to try that experiment! It is not always so black and white, I believe. You can try to extract the technical information from the rude post, if there is any, and answer to that. But I don't think that you often have a peaceful discussion and, all of a sudden, 'a rude post'. Usually the tension grows progressively (with a dark music in the background) on both sides for a while before that happens. Well. Methinks. I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you). The point of the code of conduct is not to make us change our general behaviour. I think, most of time, we're doing ok. Even in this post, it's not that bad. Just it happens that, sometimes, someone crosses the line and I find it good that we write down what being respectful means to us, that's all. I feel that it is not something so uncommon. As Volker said, many other communities have some thing like this and they are still able to communicate and exchange ideas and point of views. They didn't turn into dictatorship... Nathann -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Yooo ! I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you). Well, rudeness happen because of misunderstandings. Of course we can discuss code without being rude, but sometimes it is also different standards, that's all. Look at the 0-based Permutation thing: you have your standard, I have mine. I will never find that yours makes sense, you will never find that mine makes sense. But one of us will always have to use the other's standard. There is nothing fair in that, and it will not be fair whatever the choice. Plus there is no exchange possible, it's not like we can make deals over that. Dictators are cool for this kind of things :-P The point of the code of conduct is not to make us change our general behaviour. I think, most of time, we're doing ok. Even in this post, it's not that bad. Just it happens that, sometimes, someone crosses the line and I find it good that we write down what being respectful means to us, that's all. Yeah, but it's like building guns. Eventually, somebody will point it at someone. And then it will not be about being friendly, it will be about the rules that are written. Personally, this is the only thing I want to avoid. Nobody here ever meant to claim that it was not right to be friendly and patient. Nathann -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Le jeudi 27 novembre 2014 14:50:06 UTC+1, Simon King a écrit : Hi Volker, On 2014-11-27, Volker Braun vbrau...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: But we do communicate in English, so we can't really avoid using anglosaxon organizational concepts. I refuse the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Moreover, we do not communicate in English as native speakers. So, I absolutely see no reason why our Lingua Franca should influence our mindset or our organisational structure. Alternative : make the majestuous Latin of Leonard Euler the lingua franca of sage- lists/groups. That would give us the added benefit of having grammatically well-built posts much more frequently... (I'd also propose French (but I'm highly biased :-] and that requires non-ASCII characters), German (also needs non-ASCII characters) or (classical) Greek (ditto, plus it's murderously difficult to get it right : in France, old Classicists used to tell that one has to forget greek seven times before getting a grasp of it...). So Latin, which has been proved for a long time to be a serviceable lingua franca for mathematics, would probably be theleast bad solution if we really wanted to enforce civility through linguistic tools). Hoping (but not really expecting) this helps, -- Emmanuel Charpentier Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:20:42 PM UTC, Emmanuel Charpentier wrote: Alternative : make the majestuous Latin of Leonard Euler the lingua franca of sage- lists/groups. That would give us the added benefit of having grammatically well-built posts much more frequently... Quick, lets vote on it since it is only today that there are no Americans on sage-devel ;-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Lectoribus salutem! Emmanuel Charpentier scripsit: Alternative : make the majestuous Latin of Leonard Euler the lingua franca of sage- lists/groups. That would give us the added benefit of having grammatically well-built posts much more frequently... Haec propositio approbationem meam habet. (Aut, sicut hodie dicetur: plus unum!) Ceterum censeo codicem morum delendum esse. Petrus -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
7 Frimaire an 223 de la Révolution die, scribit Volker Braun : On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:20:42 PM UTC, Emmanuel Charpentier wrote: Alternative : make the majestuous Latin of Leonard Euler the lingua franca of sage- lists/groups. That would give us the added benefit of having grammatically well-built posts much more frequently... Quick, lets vote on it since it is only today that there are no Americans on sage-devel ;-) Placet. Sic fiat. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
die XXVII mensis Novembris anni MMDCCLXVII ab urbe condita Emmanuel Charpentier scripsit: 7 Frimaire an 223 de la Révolution die, scribit Volker Braun : On Thursday, November 27, 2014 7:20:42 PM UTC, Emmanuel Charpentier wrote: Alternative : make the majestuous Latin of Leonard Euler the lingua franca of sage- lists/groups. That would give us the added benefit of having grammatically well-built posts much more frequently... Quick, lets vote on it since it is only today that there are no Americans on sage-devel ;-) Placet. Sic fiat. Placet mihi quoque. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
2014-11-27 18:41 GMT+01:00 Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com: Yooo ! I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you). Well, rudeness happen because of misunderstandings. Of course we can discuss code without being rude, but sometimes it is also different standards, that's all. Look at the 0-based Permutation thing: you have your standard, I have mine. I will never find that yours makes sense, you will never find that mine makes sense. But one of us will always have to use the other's standard. There is nothing fair in that, and it will not be fair whatever the choice. Plus there is no exchange possible, it's not like we can make deals over that. Dictators are cool for this kind of things :-P Well, conversations such as the one we had on permutations are fine. We both have a point of view and we just argued to defend it. I see no problem in that! The problem comes where instead, this goes out of hand with personal attacks, demeaning comments or things like that. The point of the code of conduct is not to make us change our general behaviour. I think, most of time, we're doing ok. Even in this post, it's not that bad. Just it happens that, sometimes, someone crosses the line and I find it good that we write down what being respectful means to us, that's all. Yeah, but it's like building guns. Eventually, somebody will point it at someone. And then it will not be about being friendly, it will be about the rules that are written. Personally, this is the only thing I want to avoid. Nobody here ever meant to claim that it was not right to be friendly and patient. I understand your fear. That's why I'm really ready to put effort into *not* making it a gun. None of us want a gun, what we want is a safety nest, no shooting!! On the other hand, you guys have to acknowledge the fact that some of us need this safety nest even if you don't see the point... That's the very reason people proposed a code of conduct at the first place. Cheers Viviane Nathann -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Viviane, On 2014-11-27, Viviane Pons vivianep...@gmail.com wrote: I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you). Why not? I didn't edit the code of conduct on the wiki page yet, but that's certainly something I'd like to add to it. A code of conduct should not only give advises how to avoid the creation of a conflict, but also how to settle a conflict. I feel that it is not something so uncommon. As Volker said, many other communities have some thing like this ... ... pirates had it, too. But seriously: So far my experience with codes of conducts has been at various German school. In *all* cases, the teachers instrumented it to bully pupils they didn't like and then blamed these pupils for the resulting destruction of the community. So, if someone suggests creating a code of conduct, I can't help it: I must think of it as a weapon. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
I think we can discuss code and ideas without being rude. If I receive a rude comment, I have neither the energy nor the time to find the ideas in it, and I shouldn't have to do it (and neither should you). +1 A. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Sorry if I didn't respond fast enough, I'm teaching this semester (check out http://vbraun.cc/qft, also includes some Sage numerical experiments) Why is it so important? If it makes you feel better to personally insult somebody then PM me, I can take it. But I'm pretty sure that the authors would be less happy to be called big-dicked than me. If you are interested in gender roles then I'm happy to report that persons of both genders contributed to it. I was not personally involved (in my negative spare time), but I was asked whether I agree. I did and I posted it. Frankly, having a code of conduct akin to Fedora/Django isn't a big conspiracy. I haven't seen any argument that Fedora/Django should not have a code of conduct, and if you want to argue against one in general then your argument should cover that. Unless you think that being a mathematician makes your inter-personal behavior superior to that of a non-mathematician. But I think the recent thread is ample evidence that talking to mathematicians about ethics is perhaps even more hopeless than to talk to a moral philosopher about mathematics. On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:37:58 AM UTC, Nathann Cohen wrote: Thus I am asking again, and politely despite my finding very disrespectful to have a legitimate question ignored: who was on the short list to write what is now our code of conduct, when was it initiated and in which conditions ? (yes, there are three parts to the question) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi, On 2014-11-26, Tom Boothby tomas.boot...@gmail.com wrote: Ya know... Nathann. Buddy. Calling out people who may have had complaints that could trigger a discussion about a code of conduct is a bully move. Please avoid doing this in the future. If you want to vent your spleen, you're welcome to do it on sage-flame. If I understand correctly, Nathann did not ask for the people whose complaints triggered the creation of a code of conduct, but he asked for the people who participated in the formulation of the code of conduct. And I don't think that the latter is a bully move. It seems that some of the recent posts in this thread, including the post to which I am answering, are a lot more heated then they should be. Hopefully we don't see the effect that I predicted in earlier posts: It could be that the mere existence of a code of conduct can have a negative effect on the behaviour in discussions, simply because some may feel entitled to bash people by reference to the code's authority. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Thus I am asking again, and politely despite my finding very disrespectful to have a legitimate question ignored: who was on the short list to write what is now our code of conduct, when was it initiated and in which conditions ? (yes, there are three parts to the question) Hi Nathan, I participated in the initial drafting of the code. Our draft closely follows, and was stolen from, similar codes of conduct from other projects. Ultimately all that it asks is that people be polite and respectful towards others. I don't think that this very onerous. Rather than being put forward as a fait accompli (or even a fiat accompli:) Volker's initial post asked everyone to (discuss and) vote on whether we should adopt the code. That is, from the onset people were asked for their opinion. If you reread the thread, when the discussion started becoming heated William tried to close it. When that failed, he asked everyone to vote on it. This looks quite democratic to me. This said, since the vote was so close, and seemingly so contentious, I'm not sure we should adopt it. Personally I would prefer to see it, or some variation of it, adopted as guidelines -- having to enforce a code is contrary to the underlying principle of being polite. The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of posts. I had tried talking off-list with the person making these to try and explain to them why their comments were not helpful. Later I learned that several other people had, independently, talked to this person as well. (Incidentally, the poster is a valued developer, which makes them much harder to ignore than some one like rjf.) Speaking for myself, if one person tells me I'm being rude I'll probably take notice, but perhaps I'd shrug them off. If four people tell me I'm being rude then change my behaviour. Unfortunately, nothing changed. A number of people have stopped contributing to sage because of such interactions, and there is a danger that others will stop. I don't want that. As nothing else had worked I thought that it was worth proposing some guidelines in the hope that this might help. I'm still a little baffled as to why the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other is causing such a commotion. Andrew -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Nathan, I participated in the initial drafting of the code. Our draft closely follows, and was stolen from, similar codes of conduct from other projects. Ultimately all that it asks is that people be polite and respectful towards others. I don't think that this very onerous. Rather than being put forward as a fait accompli (or even a fiat accompli:) Volker's initial post asked everyone to (discuss and) vote on whether we should adopt the code. That is, from the onset people were asked for their opinion. If you reread the thread, when the discussion started becoming heated William tried to close it. When that failed, he asked everyone to vote on it. This looks quite democratic to me. This said, since the vote was so close, and seemingly so contentious, I'm not sure we should adopt it. Personally I would prefer to see it, or some variation of it, adopted as guidelines -- having to enforce a code is contrary to the underlying principle of being polite. The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of posts. I had tried talking off-list with the person making these to try and explain to them why their comments were not helpful. Later I learned that several other people had, independently, talked to this person as well. (Incidentally, the poster is a valued developer, which makes them much harder to ignore than some one like rjf.) Speaking for myself, if one person tells me I'm being rude I'll probably take notice, but perhaps I'd shrug them off. If four people tell me I'm being rude then I change my behaviour. Unfortunately, nothing changed. A number of people have stopped contributing to sage because of these interactions, and there is a danger that others will stop. I don't want that. As nothing else had worked I was in favour of proposing some guidelines to the community in the hope that this would help. I'm still a little baffled as to why the suggestion that we try to be nice to each other is causing such a commotion. Andrew -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Rather than being put forward as a fait accompli (or even a fiat accompli:) Volker's initial post asked everyone to (discuss and) vote on whether we should adopt the code. That is, from the onset people were asked for their opinion. If you reread the thread, when the discussion started becoming heated William tried to close it. When that failed, he asked everyone to vote on it. This looks quite democratic to me. This said, since the vote was so close, and seemingly so contentious, I'm not sure we should adopt it. Personally I would prefer to see it, or some variation of it, adopted as guidelines -- having to enforce a code is contrary to the underlying principle of being polite. I would be in favour of this: having guidelines and not an enforced code. The sage-abuse could still be there, as I see it, it could be a place to say Hey, I didn't feel this conversation was aright and I was affected by such or such behaviour, a way to ask support from the community, also to point out when there is some really big abuse we think something should be done (I hope this never happens). Not the same as sage-flame which is to discuss subject that we know could be heated and we raise a warning flag for other participants. The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of posts. I had tried talking off-list with the person making these to try and explain to them why their comments were not helpful. Later I learned that several other people had, independently, talked to this person as well. (Incidentally, the poster is a valued developer, which makes them much harder to ignore than some one like rjf.) Speaking for myself, if one person tells me I'm being rude I'll probably take notice, but perhaps I'd shrug them off. If four people tell me I'm being rude then change my behaviour. Unfortunately, nothing changed. A number of people have stopped contributing to sage because of such interactions, and there is a danger that others will stop. I don't want that. As nothing else had worked I thought that it was worth proposing some guidelines in the hope that this might help. I'm still a little baffled as to why the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other is causing such a commotion. Andrew -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On 2014-11-26 14:22, Andrew wrote: I'm still a little baffled as to why the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other is causing such a commotion. You're confusing the Code of Conduct with the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other. The former is what causing commotion. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi, On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 12:45:49AM -0800, Volker Braun wrote: Sorry if I didn't respond fast enough, I'm teaching this semester (check out http://vbraun.cc/qft, also includes some Sage numerical experiments) You make a point about votes with short deadlines. Hovewer, the vote seems still considered as legitimate by some. Why is it so important? If it makes you feel better to personally insult somebody then PM me, I can take it. I am not sure people asking for transparency aim at insulting anybody. But I'm pretty sure that the authors would be less happy to be called big-dicked than me. This is out of context. This bad sarcasm was not about people (not even yourself) but about establishing a ranking within Sage community, even more a ranking based on quantitative criteria such as number of commits, which i still find patriarchal and unfair to the Sage community. If you are interested in gender roles then I'm happy to report that persons of both genders contributed to it. I was not personally involved (in my negative spare time), but I was asked whether I agree. I did and I posted it. Frankly, having a code of conduct akin to Fedora/Django isn't a big conspiracy. I haven't seen any argument that Fedora/Django should not have a code of conduct, and if you want to argue against one in general then your argument should cover that. Unless you think that being a mathematician makes your inter-personal behavior superior to that of a non-mathematician. But I think the recent thread is ample evidence that talking to mathematicians about ethics is perhaps even more hopeless than to talk to a moral philosopher about mathematics. The problem is precisely here : requiring ethics from the other in an unethical way hurts. The problem is not only about the content of the text, but about the way it was enforced, written by a hidden group, voted without possible modification, and so on (i will not repeat all arguments here). Ciao, Thierry -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hello, From Volker: Why is it so important? If it makes you feel better to personally insult somebody then PM me, I can take it. But I'm pretty sure that the authors would be less happy to be called big-dicked than me. I feel hurt by Volker's answer... should I report on sage-abuse? Nathann called nobody big as far as I can remember. At least you agree that it is a conspiracy. From Andrew: Hi Nathan, I participated in the initial drafting of the code. Our draft closely follows, and was stolen from, similar codes of conduct from other projects. The main question of Nathann, which is really fundamental is: why was it redacted by a small group of people and immediately proposed as a vote (and not as an open discussion)?. This is really what happend: the first message of the thread is the proposal of the code of honnor (by Volker) and the second is the proposal to vote about it (by William). You are right that there was a communication problem. But this was not presented in this way! Ultimately all that it asks is that people be polite and respectful towards others. I don't think that this very onerous. This has been discussed and I do not agree. The code of honor is not at all welcoming. I would have started any official text by Anybody is welcome to contribute or something like that. It looks much more: like if you do not agree with somebody then do not say it too loudly. Volker's initial post asked everyone to (discuss and) vote on whether we should adopt the code. That is, from the onset people were asked for their opinion. If you reread the thread, when the discussion started becoming heated William tried to close it. When that failed, he asked everyone to vote on it. This looks quite democratic to me. Two questions: democracy is good ? I thought we were open to everyone, not only to the majority... this vote is democratic ? a yes/no vote that we have to do in two days on a text prepared in advance by a small group of people is not democratic. Even Volker was not able to vote because of his teaching. This said, since the vote was so close, and seemingly so contentious, I'm not sure we should adopt it. Personally I would prefer to see it, or some variation of it, adopted as guidelines -- having to enforce a code is contrary to the underlying principle of being polite. +1 Let me say again on the list that I am in favor of having a text that define what is the sage community. And this has to be agreed by everyone and modified until a common consensus. A wiki page is open: http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageCommunityProposal The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of posts. I had tried talking off-list with the person making these to try and I really think that this should have been said before. This is really important to mention that some people were hurt. Anne Schilling mentioned some of it but it was never really discussed. It seems that it is the hidden subject of that proposal. And it is shameful that it ends with the creation of a police. guidelines in the hope that this might help. I'm still a little baffled as to why the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other is causing such a commotion. You can not state be nice as an order. The only thing which makes sense is to say welcome. Vincent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi, On 2014-11-26, Thierry sage-googlesu...@lma.metelu.net wrote: The problem is precisely here : requiring ethics from the other in an unethical way hurts. Exactly. And it seems to me that these consequences became visible in this discussion already. Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
From Andrew: Hi Nathan, I participated in the initial drafting of the code. Our draft closely follows, and was stolen from, similar codes of conduct from other projects. The main question of Nathann, which is really fundamental is: why was it redacted by a small group of people and immediately proposed as a vote (and not as an open discussion)?. This is really what happend: the first message of the thread is the proposal of the code of honnor (by Volker) and the second is the proposal to vote about it (by William). You're not being completely fair on this. There was a lot of discussions going on on the first thread before the vote was proposed. Most of the discussion was about having a code of conduct or not having one, but people could also have suggested changes in the text itself. I don't know why people wrote the text before, probably it didn't strike them as being a problem as they mostly adapted other texts from similar groups. Anyway, I don't see anything weird here. Sometimes, we do the same with code: someone just does the job and propose an implementation and then ask the community what they think. It does not mean the text cannot be changed, You are right that there was a communication problem. But this was not presented in this way! Ultimately all that it asks is that people be polite and respectful towards others. I don't think that this very onerous. This has been discussed and I do not agree. The code of honor is not at all welcoming. I would have started any official text by Anybody is welcome to contribute or something like that. It looks much more: like if you do not agree with somebody then do not say it too loudly. Once again, the text can be changed, you can make such a proposition... Also it is not a question of not being loudly, but of being respectful when disagreeing, which was not always the case in sage-devel. +1 Let me say again on the list that I am in favor of having a text that define what is the sage community. And this has to be agreed by everyone and modified until a common consensus. A wiki page is open: http://wiki.sagemath.org/SageCommunityProposal That seems like interesting project but it's quite a different one and a much bigger one. In my opinion, the actual Code of conduct has no ambition to define the Sage community, I really understand it as some basic guidelines to behave towards each other... The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of posts. I had tried talking off-list with the person making these to try and I really think that this should have been said before. This is really important to mention that some people were hurt. Anne Schilling mentioned some of it but it was never really discussed. It seems that it is the hidden subject of that proposal. And it is shameful that it ends with the creation of a police. Once again, I don't see where there is a police. No one has been given any power over anyone else, there is no sanction mentioned, or anything like this. guidelines in the hope that this might help. I'm still a little baffled as to why the suggestion that we try to being nice to each other is causing such a commotion. You can not state be nice as an order. The only thing which makes sense is to say welcome. I disagree with that. You can say welcome and be nice (or something more specific like be respectful), I don't see why not. Vincent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:41:32 PM UTC, vdelecroix wrote: I would have started any official text by Anybody is welcome to contribute or something like that. That sounds like a mission statement, not like a code of conduct. Really, much of the 2-week discussion was just cultural confusion about what a code of conduct is. Mostly from the non-Americans who have never seen such a thing. And I understand your culture shock in that regard. On the other side were people that are quite familiar with codes of conducts in other organizations and were just as rightfully confused that we can't even agree on being nice to each other. Also, during the lengthy discussion there were very few concrete actionable suggestions for changes. You were one of the few honorable exceptions when you put the text on the wiki to make changes. But so far there has only been one edit by yourself, so I think its fair to say that this did not gather much momentum. Still I would be happy if people can come up with relevant changes, but please keep it on the topic of a code of conduct. Even Volker was not able to vote because of his teaching. I could have voted, but I didn't. Mostly because I think that the whole discussion was more useful than a text tucked away on the web page when it comes to reminding everyone to stay civil. So I would have counted either outcome as a win... You can not state be nice as an order. The only thing which makes sense is to say welcome. Then why is it called Kant's categorial imperative, should we rephrase it as Kant's categorial suggestion? Its just an English language thing. If you want to argue about it please include other codes of conduct and explain why they are wrong, too. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Am Mittwoch, 26. November 2014 14:47:29 UTC+1 schrieb Viviane Pons: I would be in favour of this: having guidelines and not an enforced code. ++ ...that would require another voting which invalidates the previous one... Jakob -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
2014-11-26 16:29 GMT+01:00 Jakob Kroeker kroe...@uni-math.gwdg.de: Am Mittwoch, 26. November 2014 14:47:29 UTC+1 schrieb Viviane Pons: I would be in favour of this: having guidelines and not an enforced code. ++ ...that would require another voting which invalidates the previous one... Probably, but let's not rush into anything!! We've seen the consequence of that. I agree that the vote was a bit early but I guess William just did as he thought was best, he wasn't trying to enforce anything but maybe just to settle the point. He could not predict the direction of the vote, it was a close call. Jakob -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 7:29:52 AM UTC-8, Jakob Kroeker wrote: Am Mittwoch, 26. November 2014 14:47:29 UTC+1 schrieb Viviane Pons: I would be in favour of this: having guidelines and not an enforced code. ++ ...that would require another voting which invalidates the previous one... It wouldn't invalidate it, it would be a vote for an amendment. This follows the legislative process. Also, we're never going to get *everyone* to agree, that's why we take either a majority or super-majority (67%) opinion. However we haven't decided as a community what deserves a majority or super-majority vote. Best, Travis -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Viviane Pons vivianep...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-11-26 16:29 GMT+01:00 Jakob Kroeker kroe...@uni-math.gwdg.de: Am Mittwoch, 26. November 2014 14:47:29 UTC+1 schrieb Viviane Pons: I would be in favour of this: having guidelines and not an enforced code. ++ ...that would require another voting which invalidates the previous one... Probably, but let's not rush into anything!! We've seen the consequence of that. I agree that the vote was a bit early but I guess William just did as he thought was best, he wasn't trying to enforce anything but maybe just to settle the point. He could not predict the direction of the vote, it was a close call. So you don't have to guess, I agree with the above guesses about what I thought. I also agree with Volker's statement: I could have voted, but I didn't. Mostly because I think that the whole discussion was more useful than a text tucked away on the web page when it comes to reminding everyone to stay civil. So I would have counted either outcome as a win... William -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hello everybody, The reason why I felt that Thierry's question was legitimate, and the reason why I renewed it repeatedly, is that I do not like to think that anybody here has so much disrespect for our community that they believe possible to write its laws in secret [1] and have them proposed for vote while hiding behind the release manager (whose opinions, because of his status, have more weight for the community). We cannot accept our new legislative system to be closed-source. Secondly, a vote does not make a democracy: the simple fact that the authors had all the time to agree on the text means that they were much more prepared than the 'no'-voters at the critical time. We had to build our argumentation on-the-fly, while everything was being done. This is not equally fair on both sides. Thus I do not believe that this was democratic. Volker, Tom: Please consider the tone of my first email, and the tone of your answers. Please consider the code of conduct that was just voted. Can you see why I may feel that you broke it clearly and cleanly at my expense ? If those rules are not only meant to apply to me, do you think the community should react to that ? Andrew: if one person tells me I'm being rude I'll probably take notice [...]. If four people tell me I'm being rude then I change my behaviour The book I read these days is entitled Nonviolent communication: a language of life. Because of the way I talk, many persons stop at the words and stop caring about the meaning. It does harm to my professional life and in my private life too. You would be wrong to believe that I do not care. Some opinions, however, are hard to defend. Against a code saying 'be nice'. As Jeroen said: not because of 'be nice', but because it is a code. Some are hard to defend, because 10 persons agree and you are the only one to disagree. It is so easy for them to disregard your opinion: they litterally do not have to care: they are sufficiently many to do what they wish whatever you think. Yet you believe that there is truth in what you say. Please note, however, that in this thread you do not have to complain about my behaviour as much as I could complain about others'. So, somehow. There are changes. Finally: I do not forget why I created this thread, and the list of original authors still has not been made public. We deserve this much respect. Nathann P.S.: Five interesting pages that a friend sent me: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~corp1468/Welcome_files/Srinivasan_In%20Defence%20of%20Anger.pdf [1] No public announcements; Private exchanges; Hidden list of participants: this is what 'in secret' means. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Volker, On 2014-11-26, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote: Really, much of the 2-week discussion was just cultural confusion about what a code of conduct is. Mostly from the non-Americans who have never seen such a thing. And I understand your culture shock in that regard. On the other side were people that are quite familiar with codes of conducts in other organizations and were just as rightfully confused that we can't even agree on being nice to each other. What you seem to not understand, Volker, is that Sage has grown far beyond a US project. So, a code of conduct is an American thing is not a good argument for having a code of conduct. And to repeat it since you seem to ignore it: Some people (I think I have not been the only one) see the clear possibility that in future we will behave less nicely towards each other *because* of a code of conduct. I did not want a code of conduct *because* I want a civilised atmosphere in the Sage community. And you may notice that some of the recent posts here already went into the direction of instrumenting the questionable authority of a code of conduct in order to bash people, assuming that people have bad intentions when they just did an awkward translation. That's a very bad symptom, IMHO! Also, during the lengthy discussion there were very few concrete actionable suggestions for changes. Yes there was. The suggestion to delete the code of conduct was very concrete. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Nathann, On 2014-11-26, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com wrote: Volker, Tom: Please consider the tone of my first email, and the tone of your answers. Please consider the code of conduct that was just voted. Can you see why I may feel that you broke it clearly and cleanly at my expense ? If those rules are not only meant to apply to me, do you think the community should react to that ? I think I did react to that. If I didn't then I hope you accept my apology. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
I feel this is going nowhere... We should start with the assumption we all agree on something: we want the sage mailing list to be place where no one is bullied and where we can express our different point of views safely and with respect. I think we all want that whether we voted yes or no to the code of conduct itself. It is a sensitive matter because if we don't feel we have this, then it can affect our involvement into the project itself. I think everyone's actions so far toward the code of conduct has been motivated by this goal, on both side. I don't know who wrote the code of conduct that was proposed and, honestly, I don't really care. It was maybe a mistake to do it this way and I agree that Vincent's proposal to work on it on a wiki is better. But I don't think they did it with bad intentions. And seeing how things are now, I understand they don't want to say anything and to defend themselves against being a conspiracy, a secret police or something. Rather than pointing fingers on how things should have been done, and why were they done this way... I think we should try to find a solution to our problem which is the goal I stated: the sage mailing list to be place where no one is bullied and where we can express our different point of views safely and with respect. (Of course, this will never be perfect, the idea is to make our best) Some of us thought a code of conduct will help to reach this goal and there was a big debate on the first thread about this very question. There was a vote and even though the legitimacy of the vote is contested, it still says something: there are a quite a bunch of people (a majority of the voters) who think things are not good enough the way they are and wanted a code of conduct. So now, in the spirit of a consensus, what should we do? Keeping the code of conduct as it is is not good, it divides the community and some people feel excluded and disagree with the process. Leaving things as they were is not good either, as some people expressed in a vote that they wanted a change and they might complain if the vote is ignored (and once again, it's because they feel sage would be a better and safer place with the code). For the same reason, voting again on the same question is not good, as whatever the result is, some people will feel excluded. Is it possible to find a compromise on which people are mostly ok? For example, I proposed to have some guidelines instead of an actual code. And Vincent proposed to work on a wiki to make a better text. Also, the process itself was an issue. To those who contest the vote: in what condition would you accept whatever the result is? What would you propose to do? I hope this helps, and please remind again that we all want the same thing. Cheers Viviane PS: to answer to Nathann specifically, your tone was indeed completely ok and you were answered with some contempt. 2014-11-26 18:32 GMT+01:00 Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de: Hi Nathann, On 2014-11-26, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com wrote: Volker, Tom: Please consider the tone of my first email, and the tone of your answers. Please consider the code of conduct that was just voted. Can you see why I may feel that you broke it clearly and cleanly at my expense ? If those rules are not only meant to apply to me, do you think the community should react to that ? I think I did react to that. If I didn't then I hope you accept my apology. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Indeed, on a second reading, my post was an overreaction. I apologize for that. I don't see where I broke it clearly and cleanly at [your] expense. If you'd like to tell me publicly or privately where I've misstepped, I'm not going to put up a fight. On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Nathann Cohen nathann.co...@gmail.com wrote: Volker, Tom: Please consider the tone of my first email, and the tone of your answers. Please consider the code of conduct that was just voted. Can you see why I may feel that you broke it clearly and cleanly at my expense ? If those rules are not only meant to apply to me, do you think the community should react to that ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On 2014-11-26, Volker Braun vbraun.n...@gmail.com wrote: --=_Part_1461_774968532.1417015681893 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary==_Part_1462_407798269.1417015681894 --=_Part_1462_407798269.1417015681894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:41:32 PM UTC, vdelecroix wrote: I would have started any official text by Anybody is welcome to contribute or something like that. That sounds like a mission statement, not like a code of conduct. Really, much of the 2-week discussion was just cultural confusion about what a code of conduct is. Mostly from the non-Americans who have never seen such a thing. To the contary, I have seen way too much of this shit in my youth, FYI. Laws of the pioneers of the Soviet Union, Moral codex of a young builder of Communism, etc etc ad nauseum... And I understand your culture shock in that regard. I have had very unhappy memories vividly recalled by this thread. I have better things to do than to manage this, really... On the other side were people that are quite familiar with codes of conducts in other organizations and were just as rightfully confused that we can't even agree on being nice to each other. Also, during the lengthy discussion there were very few concrete actionable suggestions for changes. You were one of the few honorable exceptions when you put the text on the wiki to make changes. But so far there has only been one edit by yourself, so I think its fair to say that this did not gather much momentum. Still I would be happy if people can come up with relevant changes, but please keep it on the topic of a code of conduct. Even Volker was not able to vote because of his teaching. I could have voted, but I didn't. Mostly because I think that the whole discussion was more useful than a text tucked away on the web page when it comes to reminding everyone to stay civil. So I would have counted either outcome as a win... You can not state be nice as an order. The only thing which makes sense is to say welcome. Then why is it called Kant's categorial imperative, should we rephrase it as Kant's categorial suggestion? Its just an English language thing. If you want to argue about it please include other codes of conduct and explain why they are wrong, too. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi, On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 8:28:33 AM UTC-5, Andrew wrote: ... The motivation for suggesting the code was that quite a few people were unhappy with repeated negative comments that appeared in a long series of posts. ... A number of people have stopped contributing to sage because of these interactions, and there is a danger that others will stop. Discussions on sage-devel should not be demotivating for a developper/user but I wonder if the code of conduct is the way to make sure this principle is respected. It feels like the code of conduct is aiming at that (group of) person(s) and the meaning of adopting it goes beyond the text it contains. I feel like we should have that real open discussion instead and postpone the adoption of any code to a future moment when real discussions will be made. I have seen and read hard comments on the past on sage-devel, but since I had the occasion of meeting and discussing with many of the Sage developpers before, I was always able to, how to say, relativize the hardness knowing the people involved. This might be harder to do when we don't know the people involved or when the comment is directed to ourself... Sébastien -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On 2014-11-26, Simon King simon.k...@uni-jena.de wrote: Hi, On 2014-11-26, Thierry sage-googlesu...@lma.metelu.net wrote: The problem is precisely here : requiring ethics from the other in an unethical way hurts. Exactly. And it seems to me that these consequences became visible in this discussion already. Indeed. I can also add that I feel bullied by things called code of conduct - probably it is my personal problem (originating from where I came from), but it is also so for people who feel bullied by criticism of their work. Such problems are not solved by codes of conduct, unfortunately. Dima Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Viviane Pons vivianep...@gmail.com wrote: I feel this is going nowhere... We should start with the assumption we all agree on something: we want the sage mailing list to be place where no one is bullied and where we can express our different point of views safely and with respect. I think we all want that whether we voted yes or no to the code of conduct itself. It is a sensitive matter because if we don't feel we have this, then it can affect our involvement into the project itself. I think everyone's actions so far toward the code of conduct has been motivated by this goal, on both side. I don't know who wrote the code of conduct that was proposed and, honestly, I don't really care. It was maybe a mistake to do it this way and I agree that Vincent's proposal to work on it on a wiki is better. But I don't think they did it with bad intentions. And seeing how things are now, I understand they don't want to say anything and to defend themselves against being a conspiracy, a secret police or something. Rather than pointing fingers on how things should have been done, and why were they done this way... I think we should try to find a solution to our problem which is the goal I stated: the sage mailing list to be place where no one is bullied and where we can express our different point of views safely and with respect. (Of course, this will never be perfect, the idea is to make our best) Some of us thought a code of conduct will help to reach this goal and there was a big debate on the first thread about this very question. There was a vote and even though the legitimacy of the vote is contested, it still says something: there are a quite a bunch of people (a majority of the voters) who think things are not good enough the way they are and wanted a code of conduct. So now, in the spirit of a consensus, what should we do? Keeping the code of conduct as it is is not good, it divides the community and some people feel excluded and disagree with the process. Leaving things as they were is not good either, as some people expressed in a vote that they wanted a change and they might complain if the vote is ignored (and once again, it's because they feel sage would be a better and safer place with the code). For the same reason, voting again on the same question is not good, as whatever the result is, some people will feel excluded. +1 for focusing on what to do in the future, rather than mistakes made in the past. Is it possible to find a compromise on which people are mostly ok? For example, I proposed to have some guidelines instead of an actual code. I, personally, would be in favor of this, which wasn't really an option in the vote (which felt like a false dilemma between accept the status quo and accept that code). And Vincent proposed to work on a wiki to make a better text. Also, the process itself was an issue. To those who contest the vote: in what condition would you accept whatever the result is? What would you propose to do? Consensus is better than voting, but is sometimes hard to find when there is a bimodal (or more) distribution of opinions. I'd take the time to craft a better text, then put it up for another vote. (Despite the fact that open source projects are not democracies, it's hard to assign weights...so I don't know any better). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:09 PM, Robert Bradshaw rober...@math.washington.edu wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Viviane Pons vivianep...@gmail.com wrote: I feel this is going nowhere... We should start with the assumption we all agree on something: we want the sage mailing list to be place where no one is bullied and where we can express our different point of views safely and with respect. I think we all want that whether we voted yes or no to the code of conduct itself. It is a sensitive matter because if we don't feel we have this, then it can affect our involvement into the project itself. I think everyone's actions so far toward the code of conduct has been motivated by this goal, on both side. I don't know who wrote the code of conduct that was proposed and, honestly, I don't really care. It was maybe a mistake to do it this way and I agree that Vincent's proposal to work on it on a wiki is better. But I don't think they did it with bad intentions. And seeing how things are now, I understand they don't want to say anything and to defend themselves against being a conspiracy, a secret police or something. Rather than pointing fingers on how things should have been done, and why were they done this way... I think we should try to find a solution to our problem which is the goal I stated: the sage mailing list to be place where no one is bullied and where we can express our different point of views safely and with respect. (Of course, this will never be perfect, the idea is to make our best) Some of us thought a code of conduct will help to reach this goal and there was a big debate on the first thread about this very question. There was a vote and even though the legitimacy of the vote is contested, it still says something: there are a quite a bunch of people (a majority of the voters) who think things are not good enough the way they are and wanted a code of conduct. So now, in the spirit of a consensus, what should we do? Keeping the code of conduct as it is is not good, it divides the community and some people feel excluded and disagree with the process. Leaving things as they were is not good either, as some people expressed in a vote that they wanted a change and they might complain if the vote is ignored (and once again, it's because they feel sage would be a better and safer place with the code). For the same reason, voting again on the same question is not good, as whatever the result is, some people will feel excluded. +1 for focusing on what to do in the future, rather than mistakes made in the past. Is it possible to find a compromise on which people are mostly ok? For example, I proposed to have some guidelines instead of an actual code. I, personally, would be in favor of this, which wasn't really an option in the vote (which felt like a false dilemma between accept the status quo and accept that code). And Vincent proposed to work on a wiki to make a better text. Also, the process itself was an issue. To those who contest the vote: in what condition would you accept whatever the result is? What would you propose to do? Consensus is better than voting, but is sometimes hard to find when there is a bimodal (or more) distribution of opinions. I'd take the time to craft a better text, then put it up for another vote. (Despite the fact that open source projects are not democracies, it's hard to assign weights...so I don't know any better). http://wiki.sagemath.org/CodeOfConduct -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
Hi Andrew, On 2014-11-27, Andrew andrew.mat...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking only for myself, it is exactly this sort of post that I would like to avoid. Why can't the person who gets loud taker a breather, calm down and post something more sensible tomorrow? Because s/he is, for whatever reason, not able to. S/he is doing a mistake. But this can not be an excuse for people to commit the same mistake, even though they would be able to avoid it. I think it is hypocritical to say that it is OK for some one to write loud posts and then to ask anyone who gets put off by this to take a break. If the loud person was considerate from the start none of this would be necessary. I think it is hypocritical to say that it is OK for anyone to become loud and inconsiderate if one other person was. Cheers, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: When/by who/how was the code of conduct initiated ?
I created this thread because this question was asked several times, that I am sure everybody saw it, and that it still did not get any answer. Thus I am asking again, and politely despite my finding very disrespectful to have a legitimate question ignored: who was on the short list to write what is now our code of conduct, when was it initiated and in which conditions ? (yes, there are three parts to the question) Please let's have someone knowledgeable answer this. There should be nothing sinister going on. If person X, Y, Z suggested it, great. If, as it is very likely, the question is ignored again, I will simply have to point to this thread whenever I need in the future to give my opinion on what democracy has become here. Open source is not exactly a democracy. Even a fork is not the same. However, ideally it is *transparent*, yes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sage-devel group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
