Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how

2003-06-18 Thread Luis Hernán Otegui
But _does_ it really hurt them. They don't get any feedback - users that
install spam filters wouldn't have responded to to the spam anyway, other
than deleting it manually. The only difference is that the deletion 
process is
automated by a spam filter. I reckon spammers don't really care about the
users that install filters.
Good point, Jim.  Remember that tag line from the spam that made it through
to the list?  The one along the lines of if they get enough e-mail thrown
at them, they will become customers?
I guess they figure that if they can't come up with something unique or
mainstream, if they toss enough e-mail at it, they can get a response.  
Sort
of reminds me of bureacracy only with money, politicians, and problems...

~Benjamin
Well, Ben, what I do is reject spam-tagged messages with a beautiful
data, reject=550 5.7.1 Blocked by Anti-Spam Filter,
wich certainly has made the number of spams to go low. The good thing about 
it is that somebody's mail is mistagged as a false positive, they know that 
it didn't made it trhough. I don't delete spam tagged messages, just reject 
them, and the spammers eventually remove the addresses from their databases.

That's my two cents

   Luis Hernán Otegui
 Administrador de Red
Facultad de Ciencias Exactas
 UNLP

GNU-GPL: May The Source Be With You...

_
Charla con tus amigos en línea mediante MSN Messenger: 
http://messenger.yupimsn.com/



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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how

2003-06-18 Thread Jim Ford
On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:54:25AM -0300, Luis Hern?n Otegui wrote:

 Well, Ben, what I do is reject spam-tagged messages with a beautiful
 data, reject=550 5.7.1 Blocked by Anti-Spam Filter,
   
What does the above line do, or is it just text you manually insert at the top
of the message? Also, do you just bounce the message?

Regards: Jim Ford

-- 
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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-18 Thread Jeremy Oddo
[SNIP]

 Sorry Dave, I have to disagree with you here.  As an admin who provides
 in-house support, I lose respect for the average human being.  I cannot
 tell you how many times I have to remove virii, reinstall s/w or entire
 OSen, or remove spyware.  These are adult who repeat their actions.

The problem, I think, is their ignorance.  In the work place, the computer
has moved away from being just a word processor to being the central hub
for all information.  Most of *us* already work that way, but this is a
new concept for the average business joe.  Most of them don't have the
computer chops to be able to understand the cause/effect relationship in a
computer environment.

Again, the most important part is EDUCATION.  And if the managers and
higher-ups won't pay for some kind of education/training then they are
just plain fools.  This goes beyond the this is how you print labels in
Microsoft Word type of training.  Every company will operate differently,
and it's important for the employees to understand the workflow and proper
computer infrastructure usage.  Even more important, the company needs to
*enforce* those procedures.

Don't give them a loaded gun without showing them where the safety is.

 After admonishment and my removal of chat and file share software, one
 employee re-installed the software.  I removed again, and told her
 manager.  He supposedly talked with his department about it.  But...I
 found it again!

What?!  What kind of environment do you work in?!  PERMISSIONS my friend! 
Where I work, only admins can install software.  And if your company uses
Win9X and won't bite the bullet for Win2K/XP, get out of there!

 They are after free stuff.  Jokes.  Porn.  Games.  cool software.
 Screensavers.  Pirated software.

Tell your managers about the BSA.  I think it's $100K for every
offense(?).  That's serious stuff.

 I fix the computers, and they do it
 again.  They DO NOT care.  I would love to disconnect them from the LAN
 and  make them do everything via low bandwidth connections.  They have
 no  respect, and expect my support because I am on salary.

Hee Hee.  You've got to let them know who's boss :)  Without you there,
they can't function.  If you're the only admin on staff, take a weeks
vacation; they'll understand how important you are in no time!

Or you could show them how powerful you really are!  I had a friend that
worked as an admin for about 40-50 users.  At times, he would need to down
servers during lunch hour (Novel/Windows environment).  He would remind
people several times that THE SERVER WOULD BE OFF-LINE AT 1:00PM.  Without
fail, there would be and handful of employees that needed five more
minutes.  By the time he was able to down the server, it would be 1:30+. 
Finally, one day when he had to down the server again, he thought I've
had enough of this crap and told everyone that the server would be
off-line at 1:00PM sharp.  He reminded people all day.  Five minutes to
1:00PM, he went to the server room and waited...watching the clock.  RIGHT
at 1:00PM, he downed the server...then listened to the chorus of moans
throughout the office!


Jeremy




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RE: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-18 Thread Shayne Lebrun
I think that what this fine fellow is talking about is when you say to
somebody do NOT open an email with 'ILOVEYOU' as the subject!

Then they say, literally, 'Ok, I won't.  Hey, a new email! Wow, somebody
loves me! *click click*'

Implementing a properly fascist IT environment is damn hard when the users
are used to having carte blanche; hell, just explaining to them why
windowsupdate is firewalled off is a bitch.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
 Jeremy Oddo
 Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:51 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was
 We TEACH you how to ...)


 [SNIP]
 
  Sorry Dave, I have to disagree with you here.  As an admin who provides
  in-house support, I lose respect for the average human being.  I cannot
  tell you how many times I have to remove virii, reinstall s/w or entire
  OSen, or remove spyware.  These are adult who repeat their actions.
 
 The problem, I think, is their ignorance.  In the work place, the computer
 has moved away from being just a word processor to being the central hub
 for all information.  Most of *us* already work that way, but this is a
 new concept for the average business joe.  Most of them don't have the
 computer chops to be able to understand the cause/effect relationship in a
 computer environment.

 Again, the most important part is EDUCATION.  And if the managers and
 higher-ups won't pay for some kind of education/training then they are
 just plain fools.  This goes beyond the this is how you print labels in
 Microsoft Word type of training.  Every company will operate differently,
 and it's important for the employees to understand the workflow and proper
 computer infrastructure usage.  Even more important, the company needs to
 *enforce* those procedures.

 Don't give them a loaded gun without showing them where the safety is.

  After admonishment and my removal of chat and file share software, one
  employee re-installed the software.  I removed again, and told her
  manager.  He supposedly talked with his department about it.  But...I
  found it again!
 
 What?!  What kind of environment do you work in?!  PERMISSIONS my friend!
 Where I work, only admins can install software.  And if your company uses
 Win9X and won't bite the bullet for Win2K/XP, get out of there!

  They are after free stuff.  Jokes.  Porn.  Games.  cool software.
  Screensavers.  Pirated software.
 
 Tell your managers about the BSA.  I think it's $100K for every
 offense(?).  That's serious stuff.

  I fix the computers, and they do it
  again.  They DO NOT care.  I would love to disconnect them from the LAN
  and  make them do everything via low bandwidth connections.  They have
  no  respect, and expect my support because I am on salary.
 
 Hee Hee.  You've got to let them know who's boss :)  Without you there,
 they can't function.  If you're the only admin on staff, take a weeks
 vacation; they'll understand how important you are in no time!

 Or you could show them how powerful you really are!  I had a friend that
 worked as an admin for about 40-50 users.  At times, he would need to down
 servers during lunch hour (Novel/Windows environment).  He would remind
 people several times that THE SERVER WOULD BE OFF-LINE AT 1:00PM.  Without
 fail, there would be and handful of employees that needed five more
 minutes.  By the time he was able to down the server, it would be 1:30+.
 Finally, one day when he had to down the server again, he thought I've
 had enough of this crap and told everyone that the server would be
 off-line at 1:00PM sharp.  He reminded people all day.  Five minutes to
 1:00PM, he went to the server room and waited...watching the clock.  RIGHT
 at 1:00PM, he downed the server...then listened to the chorus of moans
 throughout the office!


 Jeremy




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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Benjamin A. Shelton
 This is pure conjecture, but a pleasant thought. Maybe the spammer's
 return rate is halving every 42 days and they're trying to compensate.

Yes, it is pure conjecture but so are most of the statistics barfed out by
some of these organizations anyway unless their methods are legitimate (I
must confess that most are--but some aren't).  Besides, even though the
organization doesn't have an agenda, those who are citing the numbers
probably do.  However, I would still argue that for some people, 42 days
might be pretty close, even if it isn't exactly doubling in volume.

 The best way to fight spam is to keep it out of as many inboxes as
 possible. When someone you know whines about spam, give them a solution.
 Help people, help spam victims, help it happen! I already installed and
 set up spamassassin for 2 local businesses, free of charge, just because
 I could, and I'm hosting mail accounts for dozens of friends,
 neighbours, family, friends of friends etc etc.

I would agree, and I must commend you for your valiant efforts.  This was
part of the point in my original message -- the fact that the Open Source
community (in general) is about helping others by getting together to solve
a problem or even to ``build a better wheel.''  The fact is, that the
original message I was responding to was a little too pessimistic for my
taste and I simply couldn't resist responding to it.

See, Dave, with more folks like you out there, the battle would be half-over
and we would be well on the way to winning.  The problem isn't so much the
spammers as it is the number of defeatists who are shouting something along
the lines of, Give up, we can't fight it, we're gonna lose anyway!  If we
could do something about *them* then perhaps our dreams could become reality
:-)

But that's just human nature.

 Between us all, we can deny spammers access to a lot of inboxes, we just
 need to work at it. Some people are working at it really hard, creating
 solutions like spamassassin, razor, dcc, dnsbl's etc, and we appreciate
 that work, so let's show our appreciation by working just as hard
 spreading the word.

I certainly can't disagree with you here.  Again, I refer to the points I
made in my previous message.  The Open Source community, I feel, is the ONLY
solution to this problem because the community, together, is the only entity
working really hard to solve the problem at hand.  Certainly there are many
commercial spinoffs and what have you, but the real magic is happening right
here, right now.  With as many talented, brilliant people out there working
on providing a solution as there is and with generous folks like yourself
out there implementing the solution ``in the field,'' this *can* happen.
I'm just slightly disappointed that some individuals are still under the
impression that we're fighting a losing battle...

~Benjamin




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RE: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Ben Johansen
LOL!

Teaching implies that the student will learn and put the learning into
practice. 

How can there be learnin' if their dead behind the shed? ;-)

Ben Johansen - http://www.pcforge.com
Authorized Witango Reseller http://www.pcforge.com/WitangoGoodies.htm 
Authorized MDaemon Mail Server Reseller
http://www.pcforge.com/AltN.htm


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Jeremy Oddo
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was
We TEACH you how to ...)

Yorkshire Dave said:
 On Tue, 2003-06-17 at 18:35, Benjamin A. Shelton wrote:


 The last article I read citing Jupiter research claimed
 per-user spam has been doubling every 42 days.  I'd almost believe
 it...


 This is pure conjecture, but a pleasant thought. Maybe the spammer's
 return rate is halving every 42 days and they're trying to compensate.

As I've stated before, I've cut down the amount of spam actually getting
to it's intended destination by over 98% by using SA.  That's gotta be
hurting the spammers :)

 The best way to fight spam is to keep it out of as many inboxes as
 possible. When someone you know whines about spam, give them a
solution.
 Help people, help spam victims, help it happen! I already installed
and
 set up spamassassin for 2 local businesses, free of charge, just
because
 I could, and I'm hosting mail accounts for dozens of friends,
 neighbours, family, friends of friends etc etc.

That's similar to my situation.  I admin a few small businesses and one
user was complaining about getting between 100-130 SPAM messages a day. 
That prompted me to bring email services locally so *I* could control
things.  That same user now gets between 0-4 SPAM messages a day.  I
consider that a victory for my side!

 Between us all, we can deny spammers access to a lot of inboxes, we
just
 need to work at it. Some people are working at it really hard,
creating
 solutions like spamassassin, razor, dcc, dnsbl's etc, and we
appreciate
 that work, so let's show our appreciation by working just as hard
 spreading the word.

Amen!!

There is, of course, one other thing we need to do:  we need to find
those
people that BUY stuff from SPAM, take them out back and shoot them dead.

CAUTION:  before implementing said procedure, please check with your
local
law enforcement to determine if this is legal in your area. ;)

Jeremy




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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Benjamin A. Shelton
 Aw, can't we gather up enough $$ to buy out a congresscritter? I'm sure
 that we can get hunting licenses extended to spammers  those that buy
 from spammers... can we try? Please?

Well, it was said once by Mark Twain that here in the United States, We
have the best politicians money can buy.  If you have the money, I'm sure
you could buy.  Maybe a search on eBay for ``crooked politician'' might
yield something :-D

I like the hunting license part.  Although I hear that they don't taste
particularly well, so you might want to donate the hide instead ;-)  Not
sure who would buy it, however...

 And when we find one, yank them out. ;)

With one of those big hooks?  Sweet!




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RE: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Vivek Khera
 BJ == Ben Johansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

BJ LOL!
BJ Teaching implies that the student will learn and put the learning into
BJ practice. 

BJ How can there be learnin' if their dead behind the shed? ;-)

You assume the student is the one behind the shed.


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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Jim Ford
On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 01:23:47PM -0700, Jeremy Oddo wrote:

 As I've stated before, I've cut down the amount of spam actually getting
 to it's intended destination by over 98% by using SA.  That's gotta be
 hurting the spammers :)

But _does_ it really hurt them. They don't get any feedback - users that
install spam filters wouldn't have responded to to the spam anyway, other
than deleting it manually. The only difference is that the deletion process is
automated by a spam filter. I reckon spammers don't really care about the
users that install filters.

Spamassassin's great and works like a charm for me, but we need to put the
bite on spammers in some other way!

Regards: Jim Ford

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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Jeremy Oddo
Benjamin A. Shelton said:
 Aw, can't we gather up enough $$ to buy out a congresscritter? I'm
 sure that we can get hunting licenses extended to spammers  those
 that buy from spammers... can we try? Please?


 I like the hunting license part.  Although I hear that they don't taste
 particularly well, so you might want to donate the hide instead ;-)

It's actually not that bad...tastes like pork...but a little stringy. 
Whoops!  I've said too much!

...and this coming from a vegetarian.  I should be ashamed of myself.

Oddly, I was thinking of the whole hunting license thing for illegal
immigrants.  I think Texans would go for it...but that's a whole other
e-mail thread ;)






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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Benjamin A. Shelton
 But _does_ it really hurt them. They don't get any feedback - users that
 install spam filters wouldn't have responded to to the spam anyway, other
 than deleting it manually. The only difference is that the deletion
process is
 automated by a spam filter. I reckon spammers don't really care about the
 users that install filters.

Good point, Jim.  Remember that tag line from the spam that made it through
to the list?  The one along the lines of if they get enough e-mail thrown
at them, they will become customers?

I guess they figure that if they can't come up with something unique or
mainstream, if they toss enough e-mail at it, they can get a response.  Sort
of reminds me of bureacracy only with money, politicians, and problems...

~Benjamin




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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Benjamin A. Shelton
 It's actually not that bad...tastes like pork...but a little stringy.
 Whoops!  I've said too much!

Hmm, pork... politicians... spammers... do I see a connection?

 ...and this coming from a vegetarian.  I should be ashamed of myself.

Not really, it's okay to splurge...  wait ... nevermind :-)

 Oddly, I was thinking of the whole hunting license thing for illegal
 immigrants.  I think Texans would go for it...but that's a whole other
 e-mail thread ;)

Actually they would--heck, I probably would, too, considering I live in the
southwest.  In that case, it seems as though you and I would agree
politically!




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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Kelson Vibber
Steve Prior wrote:
When I used to get telemarketing phone calls there were times when I was
actually interested in the category of product being called about, but I
always told the caller that it was too bad they had called because I am
actually interested in such a product, but have a policy of never doing
business with a company that telemarketed me so they were now out of the
running.
I almost had to cancel an order last month when a store I was seriously 
considering buying from sent out spam to an address that had obviously been 
harvested from my website.  If I hadn't been bidding on the same item on 
eBay, I would have bought it three days before they started the campaign.

As it was, I sent them a nice note explaining that I had almost placed an 
order with them, but would never buy anything from them at all because they 
had sent me spam.  I explained why opt-out isn't enough, that address 
harvesting was generally frowned upon, that they should be using confirmed 
opt-in, and so on, and asked to be removed from the list.

This afternoon, they sent me another mailing.  This time, I started hitting 
the abuse contacts at their ISPs.

Sometimes the student isn't willing to learn.

Kelson Vibber
SpeedGate Communications www.speed.net 



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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Jim Ford
On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 06:56:40PM -0400, Rick Macdougall wrote:

 If everyone did that once a day, they might get the clue that the 
 majority of their email isn't getting through (especially those clueless 
 newbie spammers whos spam this list).

They're anything but clueless. The probably know that some users on this list
whitelist anything from lists.sourceforge.net - like me for instance!

Regards: Jim Ford

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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Benjamin A. Shelton
 They're anything but clueless. The probably know that some users on this
list
 whitelist anything from lists.sourceforge.net - like me for instance!

I'm sure that's quite true for most spammers but not all.  I had to
terminate someone's account once because they fell for the spam that said,
If you send 5 bucks to the person who sent you this e-mail for the
software, we will give you a list of 20K addresses.

Needless to say, the individual who fell for that scam wasn't exactly the
sharpest knife in the drawer...  And boy were they upset when I cut their
account.  Thankfully, that was the only abuse of that nature I have had to
deal with (so far) -- so I can't really complain.

~Benjamin




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Re: [SAtalk] spammers aren't the only ones who can teach. (was We TEACH you how to ...)

2003-06-17 Thread Jeremy Oddo
Jim Ford said:
 On Tue, Jun 17, 2003 at 06:56:40PM -0400, Rick Macdougall wrote:

 If everyone did that once a day, they might get the clue that the
 majority of their email isn't getting through (especially those
 clueless  newbie spammers whos spam this list).

 They're anything but clueless. The probably know that some users on this
 list whitelist anything from lists.sourceforge.net - like me for
 instance!

Yeah, but come on, how many of us are actually going to even *read* the
SPAM, let alone *buy* something from them.  It's kind of like trying to
sell shoes to a guy without feet.

I'd say it's a pretty good bet that being on a sourceforge mail list and
buying something advertised in SPAM are mutually exclusive.

Jeremy




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