RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Evans, Mark (Tandem)]

Just visited the new front page.  I like it a lot. 

But one of the crown jewel features (at least to me) is buried in the
fine print:  Virtual Tables.  Is this an oversight?  I would at least
put a blurb on the Features or Distinctive Features page unless there's
a motivation not to do so (because it's experimental interface?).

Just my 2c.
Mark

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

The latest sqlite page renders nicely on a wide screen and loads in 
860mS on my machine and transfers a total of 16KB.  It looks clean, 
terse, uncluttered and business-like and free of trivia.  Just the 
presentation I relish when searching for information.  Direct and to the 
point.


Several suggestions:

o The images and static pages have a max-age of zero so they are not 
cached by a browser or a proxy cache.  It would be faster for the 
frequent user if they had a time to live and lodged in cache.


o The text could be improved by changing the format to be more incisive. 
 A possible format would be the "fact/benefit" style -


  

"more..." link>


Whitespace used to emphasize each point.

Such a format is more easily comprehended and may be rapidly scanned by 
a reader doing a feature search.  As Will Rogers said "You have one 
chance to make a first impression".


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Ken]

Some suggestions:

 Under the SQL Language page, Split the page "expressions"  into two, one 
for the sql expressions and one for SQL functions. It was not immediately 
obvious what sql functions were supported nor where to find them.

 Spelling/Grammar  Home Page: second to last paragraph
 
The developers are continue to expand the capabilities of SQLite and enhance 
its reliability and performance while maintaining .

HTH

   

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, everybody, for the excellent feedback and 
suggestions
for revising the SQLite website.  Please keep the comments
coming.

Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState

   http://www.activestate.com/

However, as we started to prototype this, we wrote down a
very simple CSS/Javascript-free template and after looking
at it, thought that this template might actually be better.
By being CSS and Javascript-free, the new design also stays
closer to the minimalist spirit of SQLite.

A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
can be seen at

  http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

Please note that there are a lot of non-working links in this
demo - it is just concept demo.  And nobody is especially
happy with the content of the homepage.  (Suggestions for
what should appear on the homepage are welcomed.)

We are also working on a more elaborate concept that involves
lots of CSS and javascript, pulldown menus, graphics, after
the style of http://www.activestate.com/.  Depending on how
it looks in the end, we might or might not put the second
up for review later today or Monday.

Please continue to provide feedback.

--
D. Richard Hipp 


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[James Walker]

Jarl Friis wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:

   (1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
   (2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
   (3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
   (4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only

(2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
That leaves me with (4).  


(2) and (3) are rendered imperfect on Konqueror as well, and therefore
probably also on Safari (on Mac) since they are based on the same HTML
render engine (KHTML). That experience is on Konqueror 3.5.7 that
renders the acid test
(http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html) perfectly!!!

I prefer the look of (2), but the implementation may be reconsidered
due to the situation regarding Konqueror (and probably Safari as well)



Is (3) supposed to have drop-down menus?  I don't see any in Safari.  I 
do see drop-down menus in (2).


The only other problem I notice in Safari is the missing-image icon for 
SQLite.gif.

--
  James W. Walker, Innoventive Software LLC
  

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Robert Wishlaw]

Reduce the size of the logo. The proposed combined size of the logo and
Navbar takes up too much of the page.

I like frames so that the Navbar is always visible. This is a real
convenience with long pages.

If you don't like frames then another alternative is to have the Navbar at
the top and bottom of the page.

Robert Wishlaw

Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Jarl Friis]

"Trevor Talbot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> (2) and (3) feel heavy/slow, and pulldown menus are irritating to
> navigate.  They also do not render correctly with larger font sizes.

Agree, pulldown menus are irritating.

Jarl


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Jarl Friis]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:
>
>(1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
>(2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
>(3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
>(4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only
>
> (2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
> That leaves me with (4).  

(2) and (3) are rendered imperfect on Konqueror as well, and therefore
probably also on Safari (on Mac) since they are based on the same HTML
render engine (KHTML). That experience is on Konqueror 3.5.7 that
renders the acid test
(http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html) perfectly!!!

I prefer the look of (2), but the implementation may be reconsidered
due to the situation regarding Konqueror (and probably Safari as well)

Jarl


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Jarl Friis]

"A.J.Millan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
>> using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState
>>
>>   http://www.activestate.com/
>>
>
> However the tendency in computers screen is wider than until
> now. Today the standard is about 1440 pixels x 900

It's irelevant what's the screen resoulution is, the interesting is
the shape of the browser window. I would like to see websites designed
for higher-than-wide shaped browser windows approximately like
portrait A4 (or Letter) shapes. If all applications (including
web-sites) are designed to use full screen. You will never be able get
a screen large enough with resolution high enough to feel natural
working with more than one application on the screen at the same time,
as they are designed to work best when taking up the whole screen
area.

Jarl


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Don Lavelle]

Hi,

As a developer who is new to SQLite, I'll say that my initial  
experience with the web site was that it was very busy and  
confusing.  The available documentation seems to have a great deal of  
useful content, but I think would be more useful if it were  
organized, say into "Non-Technical," "Using SQLite," and "Development  
of SQLIte."


As for my impression of the home page, I found the quick feature list  
very useful.  It told me everything I needed to know.  As an  
improvement, I'd put the non-technical stuff higher up in the list,  
though.  Even as a developer, until I saw that 1) it was free, 2) it  
was zero-config, and 3) it was well tested, I didn't really care that  
transactions were ACID or that it was written in ANSI-C.  After I  
confirmed 1, 2, and 3, all that other stuff became a lot more  
interesting.  The new home page seems to sparse to me.


I also like a one-column approach similar to the new sample web  
pages.  The two column approach seems very busy, and I'm not sure  
where to look.  As a native English reader, my mind wants to start on  
the left of the existing web site, but the highly structured content  
of the right-most column draws me there.


Those are my three pennies.

Cheers,

Don

On Nov 9, 2007, at 6:51 PM, John Stanton wrote:

How about having adding a social networking capability so that non- 
technical people will have a reason to use the website.  You cannot  
expect to attract them with a frugal and highly functional embedded  
database library.


That is hilarious.

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

Extend that to Chardonnay and Brie and you will be in business.

Fred Williams wrote:

Great idea!  Why don't we give them little printable chits for free
chips and beer as well?!

Just the facts m'am. -- Jack Webb


-Original Message-
From: John Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 5:51 PM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website


James Dennett wrote:

Joe Wilson wrote:


--- "Samuel R. Neff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I hope this doesn't offend, but perhaps the best solution is to

outsource

the website to someone or a company that specializes in

websites and

design

(with your stated simplicity goals in mind of course).

We certainly

wouldn't want a graphic designer hacking away at the

SQLite engine,

so

isn't

the reverse also true?

Sam

+1

Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website
design is appealing.

Appealing *to* non-technical people?  Why would a website

on an embedded

database wish to appeal primarily to such an audience?  I'd think it
would be best to present information in a way that appeals

to its likely

viewers.

-- James


How about having adding a social networking capability so that
non-technical people will have a reason to use the website.
You cannot
expect to attract them with a frugal and highly functional embedded
database library.

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Richard Klein]

John Stanton wrote:
How about having adding a social networking capability so that 
non-technical people will have a reason to use the website.  You cannot 
expect to attract them with a frugal and highly functional embedded 
database library.


LOL!

- Richard


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Fred Williams]

Great idea!  Why don't we give them little printable chits for free
chips and beer as well?!

Just the facts m'am. -- Jack Webb

> -Original Message-
> From: John Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 5:51 PM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website
>
>
> James Dennett wrote:
> > Joe Wilson wrote:
> >
> >> --- "Samuel R. Neff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> I hope this doesn't offend, but perhaps the best solution is to
> >> outsource
> >>> the website to someone or a company that specializes in
> websites and
> >> design
> >>> (with your stated simplicity goals in mind of course).
> We certainly
> >>> wouldn't want a graphic designer hacking away at the
> SQLite engine,
> > so
> >> isn't
> >>> the reverse also true?
> >>>
> >>> Sam
> >> +1
> >>
> >> Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website
> >> design is appealing.
> >
> > Appealing *to* non-technical people?  Why would a website
> on an embedded
> > database wish to appeal primarily to such an audience?  I'd think it
> > would be best to present information in a way that appeals
> to its likely
> > viewers.
> >
> > -- James
> >
>
> How about having adding a social networking capability so that
> non-technical people will have a reason to use the website.
> You cannot
> expect to attract them with a frugal and highly functional embedded
> database library.
>
> --
> ---
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> --
> ---
>


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Fred Williams]

For what reason would "non-technical" types need to look on the SQLite
website? :-)

I kind'a like it the way it is. Plain and simple, with no over wrought
graphics and other worthless fluff.
It is a website for a very bare bones, plain and simple database.  Those
who access it are not looking for entertainment, just plain and simple
results.

Fred

> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 4:25 PM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website
>
>
> --- "Samuel R. Neff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I hope this doesn't offend, but perhaps the best solution
> is to outsource
> > the website to someone or a company that specializes in
> websites and design
> > (with your stated simplicity goals in mind of course).  We certainly
> > wouldn't want a graphic designer hacking away at the SQLite
> engine, so isn't
> > the reverse also true?
> >
> > Sam
>
> +1
>
> Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website
> design is appealing.
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Richard Klein]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

"Mark Wyszomierski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:

   (1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
   (2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
   (3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
   (4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only

(2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
That leaves me with (4).  


I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later


I like (1) the best.  It is simple, uncluttered, and minimalist.
I don't think the fonts are ugly at all, at least not in IE6.
(What's so ugly about Times?  It's the most popular font in
the world.)

(4) is also fine, if you insist on using CSS...

- Richard Klein


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Richard Klein]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It takes time to get all popular browsers working, but it leaves a
good first impression with potential users of your software.



It seems like a better solution would be to do the website
without any CSS and then spend the days or weeks of frustration 
saved working on SQLite instead.


AMEN!

- Richard Klein

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Richard Klein]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState

   http://www.activestate.com/

However, as we started to prototype this, we wrote down a
very simple CSS/Javascript-free template and after looking
at it, thought that this template might actually be better.
By being CSS and Javascript-free, the new design also stays
closer to the minimalist spirit of SQLite.

A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
can be seen at

  http://sqlite.hwaci.com/


Personally, I prefer the minimalist look.


And nobody is especially
happy with the content of the homepage.  (Suggestions for
what should appear on the homepage are welcomed.)


I happen to like the content of the homepage (of the *existing*
site, not the new one).  On the left, it shows all the info that
a newbie wants to know about SQLite.  On the right, it shows all
the news of interest to an experienced SQLite user.  It thus
satisfies a wide audience at a single glance.  Perfect!

- Richard Klein


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Richard Klein]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There is a new look up on the demo site at

   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

It looks good on Firefox and Safari, but IE6 renders
it incorrectly.  Being entirely in the unix world now,
I am of a mind to ignore the IE6 problem and just let
lingering IE6 users see a goofed up display.  I wonder
if others have differing views on this.


I think it's worth the effort to make it look good under
IE6.

I'm a big fan of open source, and am not particularly fond
of Microsoft, but IE6 is still my browser of choice.  Why?
Simply because I have found that it still does a better
job of rendering most web content (probably because most
web designers optimize for IE).

- Richard Klein


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

James Dennett wrote:

Joe Wilson wrote:


--- "Samuel R. Neff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I hope this doesn't offend, but perhaps the best solution is to

outsource

the website to someone or a company that specializes in websites and

design

(with your stated simplicity goals in mind of course).  We certainly
wouldn't want a graphic designer hacking away at the SQLite engine,

so

isn't

the reverse also true?

Sam

+1

Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website
design is appealing.


Appealing *to* non-technical people?  Why would a website on an embedded
database wish to appeal primarily to such an audience?  I'd think it
would be best to present information in a way that appeals to its likely
viewers.

-- James



How about having adding a social networking capability so that 
non-technical people will have a reason to use the website.  You cannot 
expect to attract them with a frugal and highly functional embedded 
database library.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- P Kishor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 11/9/07, Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- James Dennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Joe Wilson wrote:
> > > > Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website
> > > > design is appealing.
> > >
> > > Appealing *to* non-technical people?  Why would a website on an embedded
> > > database wish to appeal primarily to such an audience?  I'd think it
> > > would be best to present information in a way that appeals to its likely
> > > viewers.
> >
> > My wording was poor. I think a lot of programmers don't care what a software
> > website looks like, as long as the code works.
> 
> Wrong. Many, many programmers do care a lot about the looks of a
> software, the code behind the software, stuff written with and for
> that software, and the website of that software. While not always
> co-relating, a well laid out website is also attractive, and an
> attractive website is also well laid out. Software makers and
> designers, particularly in the world of Macs, are very proud of how
> their products look and behave, and they spend a considerable amount
> of effort making them look good.

Of course we all like nice looking software and websites. 
No one is disputing this. The question is how to achieve it.
Programmers are not necessarily the best people to make aesthetic 
decisions. Apple has their Human Interface Group.
Apple software tends to look better largely because someone has 
already made most of these design decisions in their famous 
Apple Human Interface Guidelines. There are people out there 
who do this sort of thing for a living, and frankly, are much 
better at it than most programmers.


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- James Dennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Joe Wilson wrote:
> > Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website
> > design is appealing.
> 
> Appealing *to* non-technical people?  Why would a website on an embedded
> database wish to appeal primarily to such an audience?  I'd think it
> would be best to present information in a way that appeals to its likely
> viewers.

My wording was poor. I think a lot of programmers don't care what a software 
website looks like, as long as the code works. The old website was sufficient 
in that regard. 

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I thought the point of the website redesign 
was to reach a new market. People who don't code, yet make development
decisions for their companies. Everyone on this mailing list already is a 
user a SQLite. Sometimes it takes an outsider to give you an objective opinion. 


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[James Dennett]

Joe Wilson wrote:

> --- "Samuel R. Neff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I hope this doesn't offend, but perhaps the best solution is to
> outsource
> > the website to someone or a company that specializes in websites and
> design
> > (with your stated simplicity goals in mind of course).  We certainly
> > wouldn't want a graphic designer hacking away at the SQLite engine,
so
> isn't
> > the reverse also true?
> >
> > Sam
> 
> +1
> 
> Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website
> design is appealing.

Appealing *to* non-technical people?  Why would a website on an embedded
database wish to appeal primarily to such an audience?  I'd think it
would be best to present information in a way that appeals to its likely
viewers.

-- James


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- "Samuel R. Neff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I hope this doesn't offend, but perhaps the best solution is to outsource
> the website to someone or a company that specializes in websites and design
> (with your stated simplicity goals in mind of course).  We certainly
> wouldn't want a graphic designer hacking away at the SQLite engine, so isn't
> the reverse also true? 
> 
> Sam

+1 

Also, non-technical people would be a better judge of which website 
design is appealing.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Trevor Talbot]

On 11/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:
>
>(1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
>(2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
>(3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
>(4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only
>
> (2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
> That leaves me with (4).

I like (1); my browsers' default fonts suit me perfectly, TYVM.  (4)
is therefore ugly and harder to read for no good reason.  That holds
true for all 4 of my primary browsers across two different platforms,
incidentally.

(2) and (3) feel heavy/slow, and pulldown menus are irritating to
navigate.  They also do not render correctly with larger font sizes.

You cannot properly account for things like mobile browsers unless you
make a *lot* more effort on designs like (2) and (3).  If you have to
expend significant effort to handle style in even just different
desktop browsers, the style is not worth pursuing.  Don't waste your
time; keep the site simple.

Those advocating more complex designs or just installing Firefox need
to remember 3 important things:
1) All the web is not viewsed on a desktop.
2) All the desktops are not 2+ GHz monsters.
3) Firefox is a slow pig of a browser.  See 2.

Considering SQLite is a lightweight, embedded database engine, these
points are extremely relevant to your target audience.

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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Samuel R. Neff]

I hope this doesn't offend, but perhaps the best solution is to outsource
the website to someone or a company that specializes in websites and design
(with your stated simplicity goals in mind of course).  We certainly
wouldn't want a graphic designer hacking away at the SQLite engine, so isn't
the reverse also true? 

Sam


---
We're Hiring! Seeking a passionate developer to join our team building Flex
based products. Position is in the Washington D.C. metro area. If interested
contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:30 PM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> It takes time to get all popular browsers working, but it leaves a
> good first impression with potential users of your software.
> 

It seems like a better solution would be to do the website
without any CSS and then spend the days or weeks of frustration 
saved working on SQLite instead.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

it has been my experience that the outfits who use Harold down at the 
Golf Club or Snake and Lizard at the Pub to give the management their 
"Microsoft Only" policy are not ready to make an exception to that 
policy for Sqlite.


Wilson, Ron wrote:

That sounds great and all, but lucky you that you get to work in an
office that actually lets you install firefox.  Many corporations
severely limit user freedom on company hardware.  I'm not one of them,
but I have many friends that work in these environments where only
'authorized' tools are installed on their systems for them by IT folks.

Which brings us back to the question of audience.  It is not just the
coders that need to see the site.  We have to be able to 'sell' SQLite
to managers and stakeholders that wouldn't know firefox (or databases)
from a hole in the ground.  Often a glossy looking website (that works
in most browsers) is enough to reassure them that the code base is not
junk.

"Hey boss - we want to use SQLite."
"Sure what can you tell me about it?"
"If you just install firefox, I'll show you their website."

RW

Ron Wilson, Senior Engineer, MPR Associates, 518.831.7546

-Original Message-
From: John Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 2:51 PM

To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website


To spend time working around IE deficiencies is rather futile when a 
simple fix exists for all users - load Firefox.  It is a change which is


good for them in other ways so it is a Hippocratic change - "First, do 
no harm".




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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

Yep. The 'T' in SUPPORT disappears for me.
The fonts in Linux may differ slightly from Windows.
Maybe my machine does not have Verdana and is using the sans-serif
backup font choice.

(2) has the same issue.

--- "Evans, Mark (Tandem)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I like 3 too.  There's a minor glitch on Firefox - increasing font size
> causes the right side of menu bar to be whited out but display when
> cursor hovers. Is this the bug Joe refers to below?
> 
> Mark
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Joe Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:30 PM
> > To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> > Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website
> > 
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:
> > > 
> > >(1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
> > >(2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with 
> > rounded corners
> > >(3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
> > >(4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only
> > > 
> > > (2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
> > > That leaves me with (4).  
> > > 
> > > I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later
> > 
> > I prefer (3). (SUPPORT 'T' render bug in Firefox aside).
> > 
> > (4) would also be good if you just centered the contents as 
> > in (3) to look better on wider resolutions.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- John Stanton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe Wilson wrote:
> >>(3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
> > 
> > In Firefox 2.0.0.8, press "CTRL +" a couple of times to see the render 
> > problem.  If I press "CTRL -" it renders properly.
> > 
> > On larger screen resoltions, sometimes the default fonts are a bit bigger 
> > than usual.
> > 
> Unfortunately fonts cannot be relied upon to scale smoothly so you get 
> truncation and similar situations occurring at certain resolutions or 
> font resizing.

Most popular websites will accommodate slight font size variation in 
their layouts.

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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Wilson, Ron]

That sounds great and all, but lucky you that you get to work in an
office that actually lets you install firefox.  Many corporations
severely limit user freedom on company hardware.  I'm not one of them,
but I have many friends that work in these environments where only
'authorized' tools are installed on their systems for them by IT folks.

Which brings us back to the question of audience.  It is not just the
coders that need to see the site.  We have to be able to 'sell' SQLite
to managers and stakeholders that wouldn't know firefox (or databases)
from a hole in the ground.  Often a glossy looking website (that works
in most browsers) is enough to reassure them that the code base is not
junk.

"Hey boss - we want to use SQLite."
"Sure what can you tell me about it?"
"If you just install firefox, I'll show you their website."

RW

Ron Wilson, Senior Engineer, MPR Associates, 518.831.7546

-Original Message-
From: John Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 2:51 PM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website


To spend time working around IE deficiencies is rather futile when a 
simple fix exists for all users - load Firefox.  It is a change which is

good for them in other ways so it is a Hippocratic change - "First, do 
no harm".



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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

Joe Wilson wrote:

   (3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners


In Firefox 2.0.0.8, press "CTRL +" a couple of times to see the render 
problem.  If I press "CTRL -" it renders properly.


On larger screen resoltions, sometimes the default fonts are a bit bigger 
than usual.


Unfortunately fonts cannot be relied upon to scale smoothly so you get 
truncation and similar situations occurring at certain resolutions or 
font resizing.



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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Evans, Mark (Tandem)]

I like 3 too.  There's a minor glitch on Firefox - increasing font size
causes the right side of menu bar to be whited out but display when
cursor hovers. Is this the bug Joe refers to below?

Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:30 PM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website
> 
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:
> > 
> >(1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
> >(2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with 
> rounded corners
> >(3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
> >(4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only
> > 
> > (2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
> > That leaves me with (4).  
> > 
> > I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later
> 
> I prefer (3). (SUPPORT 'T' render bug in Firefox aside).
> 
> (4) would also be good if you just centered the contents as 
> in (3) to look better on wider resolutions.
> 
> 
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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

bash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 09/11/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

This is indeed a sad commentary on the state of the
world wide web that it is now necessary to specify
a font on every web page   Oh well.


What's about CSS? It should help in this case.



I recognize that the problem is easy to fix.  I am
lamenting that the problem exists in the first place
and that a fix is required.  It used to be that you
could just put up HTML and expect it to look decent.
But now we have "advanced" to the point where you have
to play lots of games with CSS and javascript in order
to get good looks.  Is this really progress?

But I am off subject...

There is a new look up on the demo site at

   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

It looks good on Firefox and Safari, but IE6 renders
it incorrectly.  Being entirely in the unix world now,
I am of a mind to ignore the IE6 problem and just let
lingering IE6 users see a goofed up display.  I wonder
if others have differing views on this.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



To spend time working around IE deficiencies is rather futile when a 
simple fix exists for all users - load Firefox.  It is a change which is 
good for them in other ways so it is a Hippocratic change - "First, do 
no harm".



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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The font change to

  font-family: "Verdana" "sans-serif";

makes a huge difference - much more professional looking.



This is indeed a sad commentary on the state of the
world wide web that it is now necessary to specify
a font on every web page   Oh well.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



The concept of entropy.  Chaos and confusion increases unless energy is 
expended to reverse it.  The WWW is a good example of how elegant 
simplicity has degenerated.  The applied effort produces an ever 
decreasing amount of result.



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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[James Dennett]

Joe Wilson wrote:
> 
> --- James Dennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Joe Wilson wrote:
> > > No need to say it's stable or recommended - it's assumed.
Otherwise it
> > > wouldn't appear on the home page.
> >
> > I disagree.  3.5.0 appeared, even though discussion was that it was
> > relatively experimental.  It's *good* to be explicit about this.
> 
>   Latest Stable Release: 2007-11-05 version 3.5.2
>   Latest Dev Release:2038-01-01 version 3.9.7
> 
> Is more succinct and concise.

Works for me.  (And usually in the case of SQLite the latest dev release
is also the latest stable release, and life is simple.)

-- James


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:
> 
>(1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
>(2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
>(3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
>(4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only
> 
> (2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
> That leaves me with (4).  
> 
> I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later

I prefer (3). (SUPPORT 'T' render bug in Firefox aside).

(4) would also be good if you just centered the contents as in (3)
to look better on wider resolutions.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I don't think the extra bandwidth is an issue.  Dan points out that
> if you put the CSS in a separate file, then sometimes a browser
> will render the page without CSS, then when the CSS arrives a
> fraction of a second later, everything shifts.

That's not the case with external CSS file(s).
The browser blocks until the external css file is loaded. 
Nothing is rendered until that time.

Might you be refering to when images are loaded and cause layout 
to shift?

If the CSS does not load due to HTTP error, then I guess it's possible 
that the page will be rendered without it, but I don't know for
sure what happens in that case.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Clark Christensen]

Richard,

I just recently discovered that IE supports "conditionl comments", which allow 
you to, among other things, load specific CSS in IE.  For detail, see 
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537512.aspx

I was able to use this feature to my advantage on a project to load the main 
CSS file for all browsers, and maintain a small "delta" CSS file for IE that 
replaces a couple of specific classes that IE handled differently than FF.

If you'll add this as the first block in your page style:


  * {
  font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; /* this is the correct syntax for a CSS 
font list, accordint to TopStyle */
  font-size: 12px;
  }

it'll set the global default font and size.

And if you change to:

  .toolbar a {
color: white;
text-decoration: none;
  }

IE will display the correct color for the toolbar links.  Neither change 
appears to affect the page display in FF.

I may find time over the weekend to see if I can fix the radiused corners, and 
the broken cascading hover menus on the toolbar under IE6.

 -Clark


- Original Message 
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2007 10:27:21 AM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> You chose to embed the CSS settings on each page to avoid the round
> trip to the web server. You can always put the css info in a separate
 
> file, and define it only once for the entire site. It should reduce
> the number of bytes sent over the wire.
> 

I don't think the extra bandwidth is an issue.  Dan points out that
if you put the CSS in a separate file, then sometimes a browser
will render the page without CSS, then when the CSS arrives a
fraction of a second later, everything shifts.  I'd rather avoid
that.

I am now also told that web pages need to be designed for
three separate browsers:  IE6, IE7, and all others.  This is
madness.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Clay Dowling]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>(1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
>(2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
>(3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
>(4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only
>
> (2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
> That leaves me with (4).
>
> I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later

To be honest I thought that they all looked pretty good.  1 was pretty
nice and I rather liked 2 and 3.  I don't know about IE6, but they looked
fine in IE7.

Clay
-- 
Lazarus Registration
http://www.lazarusid.com/registration.shtml


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- James Dennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

> Joe Wilson wrote:
> > No need to say it's stable or recommended - it's assumed. Otherwise it
> > wouldn't appear on the home page.
> 
> I disagree.  3.5.0 appeared, even though discussion was that it was
> relatively experimental.  It's *good* to be explicit about this.

  Latest Stable Release: 2007-11-05 version 3.5.2
  Latest Dev Release:2038-01-01 version 3.9.7

Is more succinct and concise.

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Mark Wyszomierski]

I think 4 looks great,

Mark

On Nov 9, 2007 1:45 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Mark Wyszomierski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Not a terribly useful comment but was just glancing through the new
> > look and noticed a typo:
> >
> > http://sqlite.hwaci.com/about.html
> >
> > "We believe that General Electric uses SQLite in some product or
> > another because they twice wrote the to SQLite developers "..
> >
> > "wrote the to "
> >
>
> Thanks, Mark.  I am going to go through and clean all that up.
> I'm focused on the layout right now, though.
>
> I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:
>
>   (1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
>   (2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
>   (3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
>   (4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only
>
> (2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
> That leaves me with (4).
>
> I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Griggs, Donald]

 
I'd echo the suggestion for making the directions for import/export more
prominent (which may mean simply linked from multiple places).

Perhaps I'd also suggest linked to the command-line tool information
from several places, maybe including the SYNTAX area.   Newcomers seem
to be able to miss it often.

Great site and product, btw.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Marco Bambini]

I vote for (4).

---
Marco Bambini
http://www.sqlabs.net
http://www.sqlabs.net/blog/
http://www.sqlabs.net/realsqlserver/



On Nov 9, 2007, at 7:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


"Mark Wyszomierski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Not a terribly useful comment but was just glancing through the new
look and noticed a typo:

http://sqlite.hwaci.com/about.html

"We believe that General Electric uses SQLite in some product or
another because they twice wrote the to SQLite developers "..

"wrote the to "



Thanks, Mark.  I am going to go through and clean all that up.
I'm focused on the layout right now, though.

I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:

   (1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
   (2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
   (3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
   (4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only

(2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
That leaves me with (4).

I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


-- 
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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Wilson, Ron]

(4) is my choice.  I'm not fond of the drop down menu scripts on
webpages anyway... but that's just me.

RW

Ron Wilson, Senior Engineer, MPR Associates, 518.831.7546

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:45 PM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

"Mark Wyszomierski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not a terribly useful comment but was just glancing through the new
> look and noticed a typo:
> 
> http://sqlite.hwaci.com/about.html
> 
> "We believe that General Electric uses SQLite in some product or
> another because they twice wrote the to SQLite developers "..
> 
> "wrote the to "
> 

Thanks, Mark.  I am going to go through and clean all that up.
I'm focused on the layout right now, though.

I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:

   (1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
   (2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
   (3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
   (4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only

(2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
That leaves me with (4).  

I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Marco Bambini]

Another solution is to design your css for standard browser and then  
just create a iefixes.css file to load only in IE that contains the  
various fixes for that browser.


The trick is to add that lines in the head section:



---
Marco Bambini
http://www.sqlabs.net
http://www.sqlabs.net/blog/
http://www.sqlabs.net/realsqlserver/



On Nov 9, 2007, at 7:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


It takes time to get all popular browsers working, but it leaves a
good first impression with potential users of your software.



It seems like a better solution would be to do the website
without any CSS and then spend the days or weeks of frustration
saved working on SQLite instead.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Wilson, Ron]

That looks fantastic (in firefox).

Ron Wilson, Senior Engineer, MPR Associates, 518.831.7546

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 1:11 PM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[...]

There is a new look up on the demo site at

   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

It looks good on Firefox and Safari, but IE6 renders
it incorrectly.  Being entirely in the unix world now,
I am of a mind to ignore the IE6 problem and just let
lingering IE6 users see a goofed up display.  I wonder
if others have differing views on this.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Andreas Kupries]

> I don't think the extra bandwidth is an issue.  Dan points out that
> if you put the CSS in a separate file, then sometimes a browser
> will render the page without CSS, then when the CSS arrives a
> fraction of a second later, everything shifts.  I'd rather avoid
> that.
>
> I am now also told that web pages need to be designed for
> three separate browsers:  IE6, IE7, and all others.  This is
> madness.

Richard, talk to SteveL. IIRC he did the CSS for the Tcler's Wiki recently,
or at least knows who did ... Might have been Jos DeCoster too. And that CSS
has IIRC a lot of the tricks for nice display on a variety of browsers.

+1 on the madness.

--
Andreas Kupries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Developer @ http://www.ActiveState.com
Tel: +1 778-786-1122



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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[drh]

"Mark Wyszomierski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not a terribly useful comment but was just glancing through the new
> look and noticed a typo:
> 
> http://sqlite.hwaci.com/about.html
> 
> "We believe that General Electric uses SQLite in some product or
> another because they twice wrote the to SQLite developers "..
> 
> "wrote the to "
> 

Thanks, Mark.  I am going to go through and clean all that up.
I'm focused on the layout right now, though.

I put up 4 variations.  Please, everyone, offer your opinions:

   (1) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v1/ No CSS of any kind.
   (2) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v2/ CSS menus with rounded corners
   (3) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v3/ CSS menus with square corners
   (4) http://sqlite.hwaci.com/v4/ CSS font specification only

(2) and (3) do not work on IE6.  (1) has ugly fonts, I am told.
That leaves me with (4).  

I suppose we could go with (4) now and change it later

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[James Dennett]

drh wrote:

> There is a new look up on the demo site at
> 
>http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

It does look much "prettier" than the current live site.

I note the common "affect"/"effect" typo in the sentence 
"There are no known issues effecting database integrity
or correctness.", where this should be "affecting" --
SQLite does an excellent job of effecting database
integrity and correctness :)

-- James


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[drh]

Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> It takes time to get all popular browsers working, but it leaves a
> good first impression with potential users of your software.
> 

It seems like a better solution would be to do the website
without any CSS and then spend the days or weeks of frustration 
saved working on SQLite instead.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Mark Wyszomierski]

Not a terribly useful comment but was just glancing through the new
look and noticed a typo:

http://sqlite.hwaci.com/about.html

"We believe that General Electric uses SQLite in some product or
another because they twice wrote the to SQLite developers "..

"wrote the to "



On Nov 9, 2007 1:22 PM, Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > There is a new look up on the demo site at
> >
> >http://sqlite.hwaci.com/
> >
> > It looks good on Firefox and Safari, but IE6 renders
>
> The 'T' in 'SUPPORT' in the horizontal toolbar is cut off in my Linux
> Firefox 2.0.0.8 browser. I have a screen resolution of 1600x1200.
>
> It takes time to get all popular browsers working, but it leaves a
> good first impression with potential users of your software.
>
>
> __
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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[James Dennett]

Joe Wilson wrote:

> No need to say it's stable or recommended - it's assumed. Otherwise it
> wouldn't appear on the home page.

I disagree.  3.5.0 appeared, even though discussion was that it was
relatively experimental.  It's *good* to be explicit about this.

-- James


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[drh]

Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> You chose to embed the CSS settings on each page to avoid the round
> trip to the web server. You can always put the css info in a separate 
> file, and define it only once for the entire site. It should reduce
> the number of bytes sent over the wire.
> 

I don't think the extra bandwidth is an issue.  Dan points out that
if you put the CSS in a separate file, then sometimes a browser
will render the page without CSS, then when the CSS arrives a
fraction of a second later, everything shifts.  I'd rather avoid
that.

I am now also told that web pages need to be designed for
three separate browsers:  IE6, IE7, and all others.  This is
madness.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Jeff Hamilton]

> There is a new look up on the demo site at
>
>http://sqlite.hwaci.com/
>
> It looks good on Firefox and Safari, but IE6 renders
> it incorrectly.  Being entirely in the unix world now,
> I am of a mind to ignore the IE6 problem and just let
> lingering IE6 users see a goofed up display.  I wonder
> if others have differing views on this.

It renders pretty much fine with IE7. The only major difference
between IE7 and Firefox is that with IE7 the nav bar links show up as
blue/purple instead of always white.

-Jeff

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There is a new look up on the demo site at
> 
>http://sqlite.hwaci.com/
> 
> It looks good on Firefox and Safari, but IE6 renders

The 'T' in 'SUPPORT' in the horizontal toolbar is cut off in my Linux 
Firefox 2.0.0.8 browser. I have a screen resolution of 1600x1200.

It takes time to get all popular browsers working, but it leaves a
good first impression with potential users of your software.

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The font change to
> > 
> >   font-family: "Verdana" "sans-serif";
> > 
> > makes a huge difference - much more professional looking.
> > 
> 
> This is indeed a sad commentary on the state of the
> world wide web that it is now necessary to specify
> a font on every web page   Oh well.

I think sqlite.org was the last site in the world that did not 
specify a font. But now I can't render the new home page on my 
original Tim Berners-Lee web browser on my NeXT cube! (just kidding)

You chose to embed the CSS settings on each page to avoid the round
trip to the web server. You can always put the css info in a separate 
file, and define it only once for the entire site. It should reduce
the number of bytes sent over the wire.

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[drh]

bash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 09/11/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This is indeed a sad commentary on the state of the
> > world wide web that it is now necessary to specify
> > a font on every web page   Oh well.
> 
> 
> What's about CSS? It should help in this case.
> 

I recognize that the problem is easy to fix.  I am
lamenting that the problem exists in the first place
and that a fix is required.  It used to be that you
could just put up HTML and expect it to look decent.
But now we have "advanced" to the point where you have
to play lots of games with CSS and javascript in order
to get good looks.  Is this really progress?

But I am off subject...

There is a new look up on the demo site at

   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

It looks good on Firefox and Safari, but IE6 renders
it incorrectly.  Being entirely in the unix world now,
I am of a mind to ignore the IE6 problem and just let
lingering IE6 users see a goofed up display.  I wonder
if others have differing views on this.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Wilson, Ron]

Just put the font-family in your .css file and all the pages that refer
to your .css will conform.  You already said that the demo site was .css
driven...

RW

Ron Wilson, Senior Engineer, MPR Associates, 518.831.7546

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:47 PM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

Joe Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The font change to
> 
>   font-family: "Verdana" "sans-serif";
> 
> makes a huge difference - much more professional looking.
> 

This is indeed a sad commentary on the state of the
world wide web that it is now necessary to specify
a font on every web page   Oh well.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- bash <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am owner of web site with ~ 15k uniq visitors/day and I can say this
> is not really true.
> For example this is statistics from google analytics:
> 1.1024x76842.51%  
> 2.1280x1024   27.73%
> 3.1280x80010.43%
> 4.1152x8645.33%
> 5.1440x9003.10%

For some reason many PCs ship Windows with much lower resolutions 
than their graphics cards and monitors can support - even laptops.
It's a 2 second change for someone technical, but a lot of users
aren't even aware of the issue and leave the default setting.

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[bash]

On 09/11/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is indeed a sad commentary on the state of the
> world wide web that it is now necessary to specify
> a font on every web page   Oh well.


What's about CSS? It should help in this case.

-- 
Biomechanica Artificial Sabotage Humanoid

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[bash]

On 09/11/2007, A.J.Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
> > using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState
> >
> >   http://www.activestate.com/
> >
>
> However the tendency in computers screen is wider than until now. Today the
> standard is about 1440 pixels x 900, so a unique horizontal arrange y a
> waste of space.  The newspapers designers tend to be specialist in this,
> and they use several columns to arrange the information.  Obviously this is
> not a newspaper, but IMHO tree columns would be good, at least in the main
> page. Two for the rest.
>
> Good luck!

I am owner of web site with ~ 15k uniq visitors/day and I can say this
is not really true.
For example this is statistics from google analytics:
1.  1024x76842.51%  
2.  1280x1024   27.73%
3.  1280x80010.43%
4.  1152x8645.33%
5.  1440x9003.10%

-- 
Biomechanica Artificial Sabotage Humanoid

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[A.J.Millan]

Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState

  http://www.activestate.com/



However the tendency in computers screen is wider than until now. Today the 
standard is about 1440 pixels x 900, so a unique horizontal arrange y a 
waste of space.  The newspapers designers tend to be specialist in this, 
and they use several columns to arrange the information.  Obviously this is 
not a newspaper, but IMHO tree columns would be good, at least in the main 
page. Two for the rest.


Good luck!


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

The font change to

  font-family: "Verdana" "sans-serif";

makes a huge difference - much more professional looking.

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
> can be seen at
> 
>   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Brandon, Nicholas (UK)]

> 
> Please continue to provide feedback.
> 

Assuming the build process is fairly automated and not too onerous to
implement I would like to see 'nightlys/weeklys' source and precompiled
binaries of SQLite. I would imagine like me, many of us are behind
company firewalls with no facility for using cvs externally. The thought
of downloading every file using
http://www.sqlite.org/cvstrac/dir?d=sqlite is not particularly pleasing
;)

Admittedly not a presentation comment but rather an improvement to what
the website offers.



This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
> can be seen at
> 
>   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

Instead of:

  Current Status

  As of 2007-11-05 20:49:21 UTC, version 3.5.2 of SQLite is stable. 
  There are no known issues effecting database integrity or correctness. 
  Version 3.5.2 is recommended for all users.

I'd recommend:

  Latest Release: 2007-11-05 version 3.5.2

No need to say it's stable or recommended - it's assumed. Otherwise it 
wouldn't appear on the home page.

Or perhaps you could write:

  Latest Stable Release: 2007-11-05 version 3.5.2
  Latest Dev Release:2038-01-01 version 3.9.7

with an appropriate link to download the specific versions.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Stephan Beal]

On Nov 9, 2007 3:11 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

i like it! i like it so much, in fact, that i'll probably buy the software! ;)

> happy with the content of the homepage.  (Suggestions for
> what should appear on the homepage are welcomed.)

a) What is sqlite? (A sentence or three, but not more.)

b) License?

c) Brief overview of where/why one might deploy sqlite.

d) Any important links which don't quite belong (or fit) in the menu bar.

Another thing i'd like to see on the front page: the "blurb" on the
right-hand side of the current site, listing the latest couple of news
items, is always what i look at first when i visit sqlite.org.

:)

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks, everybody, for the excellent feedback and suggestions
for revising the SQLite website.  Please keep the comments
coming.

Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState

   http://www.activestate.com/

However, as we started to prototype this, we wrote down a
very simple CSS/Javascript-free template and after looking
at it, thought that this template might actually be better.
By being CSS and Javascript-free, the new design also stays
closer to the minimalist spirit of SQLite.

A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
can be seen at

  http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

Please note that there are a lot of non-working links in this
demo - it is just concept demo.  And nobody is especially
happy with the content of the homepage.  (Suggestions for
what should appear on the homepage are welcomed.)

We are also working on a more elaborate concept that involves
lots of CSS and javascript, pulldown menus, graphics, after
the style of http://www.activestate.com/.  Depending on how
it looks in the end, we might or might not put the second
up for review later today or Monday.

Please continue to provide feedback.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




Complex web sites look stylish but quickly become tedious when used 
frequently.  An elegant design approach is "Adaptive Input", where the 
user can select ever more input-driven interfaces to speed access and 
reward familiarity.


I find that to use the Firefox Firebug debugger and look at the files 
loaded from a website and the time taken is very significant.  The 
elaborate web page which loads 300 files is unmasked for what it is, a 
time and resource squanderer.


The Activestate web page loads about 15 files and on my desktop loads 
and renders in 950mS.  The current Sqlite.org page loads two files and 
completes in 500Ms, half the time of Activestate.


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Gerry Snyder]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
can be seen at

  http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

Short, simple, and sweet. I like it.

My only specific comment was going to be a request to make the page for 
datatypes easy to find. Until I made it a book mark for myself, I would 
look at the FAQ's, search the wiki (perhaps missing it both places), and 
finally find an email giving the URL. If it is already easy for everyone 
else to find, no need to change the web page--just ban retards like me 
from using the product.


SQLite rocks!

Gerry

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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Doug]

One thing I really like about the current home page is the listing of the
past 4-5 versions, the date when they were released and what changed.  It is
so easy to see what has changed since the version that I happen to be on.
That may not need to be on the front page necessarily (although I like it),
but please do keep the concise summary somewhere.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 8:11 AM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website
> 
> Thanks, everybody, for the excellent feedback and suggestions
> for revising the SQLite website.  Please keep the comments
> coming.
> 
> Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
> using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState
> 
>http://www.activestate.com/
> 
> However, as we started to prototype this, we wrote down a
> very simple CSS/Javascript-free template and after looking
> at it, thought that this template might actually be better.
> By being CSS and Javascript-free, the new design also stays
> closer to the minimalist spirit of SQLite.
> 
> A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
> can be seen at
> 
>   http://sqlite.hwaci.com/
> 
> Please note that there are a lot of non-working links in this
> demo - it is just concept demo.  And nobody is especially
> happy with the content of the homepage.  (Suggestions for
> what should appear on the homepage are welcomed.)
> 
> We are also working on a more elaborate concept that involves
> lots of CSS and javascript, pulldown menus, graphics, after
> the style of http://www.activestate.com/.  Depending on how
> it looks in the end, we might or might not put the second
> up for review later today or Monday.
> 
> Please continue to provide feedback.
> 
> --
> D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
>

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[drh]

Thanks, everybody, for the excellent feedback and suggestions
for revising the SQLite website.  Please keep the comments
coming.

Regarding the basic "look" of the site, we were considering
using a style similar to the once found at ActiveState

   http://www.activestate.com/

However, as we started to prototype this, we wrote down a
very simple CSS/Javascript-free template and after looking
at it, thought that this template might actually be better.
By being CSS and Javascript-free, the new design also stays
closer to the minimalist spirit of SQLite.

A rough prototype of what a revised website might look like
can be seen at

  http://sqlite.hwaci.com/

Please note that there are a lot of non-working links in this
demo - it is just concept demo.  And nobody is especially
happy with the content of the homepage.  (Suggestions for
what should appear on the homepage are welcomed.)

We are also working on a more elaborate concept that involves
lots of CSS and javascript, pulldown menus, graphics, after
the style of http://www.activestate.com/.  Depending on how
it looks in the end, we might or might not put the second
up for review later today or Monday.

Please continue to provide feedback.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[A.J.Millan]

In general I'm agree with Kishor comments, specially those related to the 
ability to include comments to the documentation pages and the need of 
*more* examples.


I recognize that the present design has its charm (those of a Web site made 
by an engineer) but I recognize that has found some difficulties to find 
some information, specially when beginning  with the matter.


Keeping in mind the type of public of this web, don't worry about certain 
language frank and direct .  All us have the same problem (bugs) every day.


As an additional suggestion for those of us who love SQLite but can't 
afford the cost of a maintenance subscription (or don't need it); put a 
"donate" button and add a list of contributors.


A.J.Millan 



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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Trevor Talbot]

The documentation page is too scattered, and needs to be categorized:
short bits, like the intro and features lists; reference material,
like the SQL syntax and API pages; and detailed discussion, like the
locking methods and the like.

I echo P Kishor's comment that the date/time functions need to be
moved from the wiki to the docs, and that goes for anything else on
the wiki that's stable.

For the most part, I hate wikis.  I find some random wiki on the
internet, and it has no organization, the quality is dubious, the
search pages suck, etc.  When I want tinformation, I go straight to
the official documentation.  Even if there's a "wiki" link in the
site's menu, I ignore it as irrelevant.

SQLite's wiki, on the other hand, is quite useful.  That means it
needs to be promoted: it should be mentioned on the main documentation
page, along with examples of what information you can find there
(users, tools, enhanced versions, examples, etc).  It should also be
mentioned why it's on this separate "wiki" thing: it is open to
real-time user contributions to help stay current (or something).

If you can integrate user-contributed comments into the reference
material, similar to PostgreSQL's release documentation, I believe
that would be useful too.  It's a way to get data that's on the wiki
now closer to where it's needed.

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Liam Healy]

I think the documentation section needs to be organized.  I count over
two dozen links in a simple list with no apparent organization.  Some
(like "copyright") might be best under some other heading, like
downloading.  Some are minor topics, or of transient interest, such as
moving from 3.4 to 3.5.  Some, like v2 docs, are obsolete but still
needed somewhere.  The "5 minutes or less" probably deserves to be a
big button on the front page --- that's the programmer's equivalent of
eye candy.  Overall, I find that the most important docs (the v3 API
and API reference) are buried.

I suppose the best way to approach organizing this is to look at what
other free software sites do.  Just to pick the first on your list,
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ looks like a reasonable way to go.
Each version has its own heading.  Manuals are separated from What's
New, FAQs,  etc., user documentation (API) separated from internals,
etc.  Maybe that's a good template for organization.

Liam



Liam

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Richard Klein]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite
website and would love to have suggestions from the
community.  If you have any ideas on how to improve
the SQLite website, please constribute either to the
mailing list or directly to me.


o The 'contrib' section could be better organized, say
into categories.  Also it would be nice if someone could
at least desk-check these contributions for accuracy,
relevancy, etc.

o The 'documentation' section could be organized into
subsections, with a table of contents.  Someone should
write documentation on how to test SQLite using the
test fixture.  Also need documentation on how to use
Mktclapp to build the test scripts, Tcl interpreter,
and SQLite code into an executable that can run on
any platform.

o The 'faq' should be updated to include some additional
frequently asked questions, such as "how do I implement
a scrolling cursor using SQLite?"  (Yes, there's already
an article in the Wiki, but the faq should at least link
to that article.)

o The 'wiki' Index page needs updating.

o It's not immediately obvious that when you select
certain links -- namely, 'bugs', 'timeline', and 'wiki',
that you are entering a browser-based tool (Cvstrac?)
where some links have different meanings than what you'd
expect.

For example, the 'Home' link (in the blue rectangle)
takes you to the Cvstrac home page, not the SQLite
home page.

The blue rectangle does give the user some indication
that he is in the Cvstrac context; however, I'd recommend
making this more explicit -- maybe put a Cvstrac logo
inside the blue rectangle.

o Overall, I love the way the website emphasizes content
over form, and recommend you keep it that way.  Give us
meat, meat, and more meat!  Keep the sales bulls**t to
a minimum.

- Richard Klein


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[P Kishor]

Hi Richard,

I might be in a minority on this list for suggesting that the SQLite
website could indeed become more helpful and informative through a
redesign.

I am not suggesting that the redesign necessarily be focused on
attractiveness, although, there can be some correlation in ease of use
and general attractiveness. I do think that it needs to be embellished
with more information, and with more ease to find that information.
Here are some concrete examples --

1. Perhaps the greatest improvement would occur if we enhance the
syntax section with more examples, particularly in the EXPRESSION
sub-section. Some functions are just not clear (for example, what does
glob(X,Y) do... granted, I can probably search for it and find
examples, but examples right there would be very helpful). Bringing
the date and time functions from the wiki to the syntax page would be
more direct and helpful. Having examples for each and every command
would be very useful and also educational. On this email list what I
learn about SQL is way more than what I learn about SQLite, and
expanding the syntax section would go a long way toward achieving both
these aims.

2. An extension web project for SQLite and its various language
wrappers would be very useful. Perhaps that could be accomplished by
sub-wikis. Some might contend that language-specific documentation
belongs with that language website, and that would be not an invalid
argument, but if the focus of the SQLite website is to promote the use
of SQLite no matter what language is being used, then the SQLite
website should try to accomplish, or enable accomplishing of, this
goal even if it means possibly creating redundant websites.

3. A user-editable list of frequently used tasks --

- how to rename a table
- how to import export data
- how to deal with blobs
- creating use-defined functions
- implementing full-text search

In all of the above cases, a wiki style that allows users to add
comments right on the documentation pages would be great. Once set up,
it will be up to the users to populate it with useful content. This
has worked well in other projects and would work well here.

Of course, a version *without* user-generated content would still be
included in the source code so users can build one themselves for
their local, offline use.


On 11/8/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite
> website and would love to have suggestions from the
> community.  If you have any ideas on how to improve
> the SQLite website, please constribute either to the
> mailing list or directly to me.
>
> Here are some links to competing database products
> that might inspire comments:
>
>http://www.postgresql.org/
>http://www.firebirdsql.org/
>http://www.hsqldb.org/
>http://opensource.ingres.com/
>http://db.apache.org/derby/
>http://exist.sourceforge.net/
>
> Among the comments received already are these:
>
>   (1) It is not clear from the homepage that the software
>   is free.
>   (2) Half the page is devoted to talking about bugs in
>   the software.  This suggests low quality.
>   (3) The "News" contains scary words: "radical changes".
>   (4) Three releases in as many months suggests the
>   code is not stable.
>   (5) Move the BigNameUsers to the front page
>   (see http://www.sqlite.org/wiki?p=BigNameUsers)
>   (6) Need more eye-candy.
>
> I do not necessary agree with the above comments, but I
> am open to any and all ideas.  You will not hurt my feels,
> so speak freely.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input.
>
>


-- 
Puneet Kishor

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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Igor Sereda]

I'm new to this list and to the SQLite website, so my feedback is more of
the "first impression" kind. And that impression is: the site is ok. It is
clear, simple, with almost anything I need reachable through one or two
clicks. The things I would probably do is place a google search field
somewhere in a corner and list what programming languages are supported.

The comments you mention, in my opinion, may be valid for promoting a
product sold to consumers or enterprise, which are not target audience I
would associate with this mailing list. A developer who looks for an
embedded database doesn't need eye candy, and big name users don't mean
anything (everyone uses Oracle). But that's subjective, of course. Here's
what I was looking at when making try/not try decision for sqlite: a)
license; b) features; c) could be used with Java; d) source code
availability; e) project age and release cycle (is it too young or already
dead); f) is active community present; g) options for commercial support
available.

> (1) It is not clear from the homepage that the software is free.

I guess mentioning this won't hurt, but it's no problem. Certainly someone
who can write SQL can also find "license" in the menu :)

> (2) Half the page is devoted to talking about bugs in
> the software.  This suggests low quality.

This suggests openness. If it went "we have no bugs in our software", I
would probably leave immediately. But there's a point that news column
usually takes less than 50% of page's width, something I'd agree with. 

> (3) The "News" contains scary words: "radical changes".

s/changes/improvements/ :) Seriously, there's too much care for single
words, IMHO.

> (4) Three releases in as many months suggests the code is not stable.

And 98% test coverage mentioned in the other column suggests otherwise. For
me, frequent releases are good. What will you do anyway, hide release
history? 


Hope this helps,
Igor

 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:29 PM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite website and would love
to have suggestions from the community.  If you have any ideas on how to
improve the SQLite website, please constribute either to the mailing list or
directly to me.

Here are some links to competing database products that might inspire
comments:

   http://www.postgresql.org/
   http://www.firebirdsql.org/
   http://www.hsqldb.org/
   http://opensource.ingres.com/
   http://db.apache.org/derby/
   http://exist.sourceforge.net/

Among the comments received already are these:

  (1) It is not clear from the homepage that the software
  is free.
  (2) Half the page is devoted to talking about bugs in
  the software.  This suggests low quality.
  (3) The "News" contains scary words: "radical changes".
  (4) Three releases in as many months suggests the
  code is not stable.
  (5) Move the BigNameUsers to the front page
  (see http://www.sqlite.org/wiki?p=BigNameUsers)
  (6) Need more eye-candy.

I do not necessary agree with the above comments, but I am open to any and
all ideas.  You will not hurt my feels, so speak freely.

Thanks in advance for your input.

--
D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[bartsmissaert]

What could be interesting is a listing of all the ways SQLite is used and
for users to upload their
details with a number of fixed fields like:
short description, size of database, number of users,
commercial/non-commercial, platform/OS, programming language, wrapper,
satisfaction with the application, plans for future.
Not sure if this is feasible, but it would be interesting to read + to see
the stats of it.
Obviously it could become a very big list and I am not sure
web-design-wise how that should be handled.

RBS

> We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite
> website and would love to have suggestions from the
> community.  If you have any ideas on how to improve
> the SQLite website, please constribute either to the
> mailing list or directly to me.
>
> Here are some links to competing database products
> that might inspire comments:
>
>http://www.postgresql.org/
>http://www.firebirdsql.org/
>http://www.hsqldb.org/
>http://opensource.ingres.com/
>http://db.apache.org/derby/
>http://exist.sourceforge.net/
>
> Among the comments received already are these:
>
>   (1) It is not clear from the homepage that the software
>   is free.
>   (2) Half the page is devoted to talking about bugs in
>   the software.  This suggests low quality.
>   (3) The "News" contains scary words: "radical changes".
>   (4) Three releases in as many months suggests the
>   code is not stable.
>   (5) Move the BigNameUsers to the front page
>   (see http://www.sqlite.org/wiki?p=BigNameUsers)
>   (6) Need more eye-candy.
>
> I do not necessary agree with the above comments, but I
> am open to any and all ideas.  You will not hurt my feels,
> so speak freely.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -
>
>
>




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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[John Stanton]

Rich Shepard wrote:

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Stephan Beal wrote:


google code award implies that it's free (doesn't it?)




Only to people not used to open source. "Release early, release often."




Definitely not. Its simplicity is its main beauty.



Stephan,

  Good comments from your point of view. However, what the development team
needs to define is the audience -- or audiences -- they want to effectively
reach. Not everyone looking at the web site is a linux/*BSD user, highly
involved with database management systems, code development, or other
technical aspects. Quite often the key decision-maker knows little about 
the

technology, but needs to be assured that there is a solid business reason
for adopting it. These folks need to see something more appealing to them.

Rich

To my mind the current Sqlite page is revealing and honest.  A cursory 
glance and you can see what is being presented, where it has been and 
where it is going.  It is not doing people a favour to entice them into 
using something which they may not be able to handle or which is 
inappropriate for their needs.


My suggestion for improvment is is access to the wiki and the archives 
of support information.  That could be refined.


A horde of raving, enthusiastic fans is a better way to promote a 
product than have disgruntled people who failed to achieve a good result 
with it.


There is no need to apologize for the absense of snake oil, smoke and 
mirrors.


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Wilson, Ron]

QFT

I agree with both Stephan *and* Rich.  It would be great if the site
stayed clean, white, and straightforward.  I don't personally have
difficulty selling SQLite to my boss because we've used it in many
successful projects, but I can see how the current site may not measure
up to so-called 'web 2.0' expectations.

Just please please please avoid cheezy stock photos of happy users in
breathtaking vistas of nature.

Maybe a logo design contest is in order?

RW

Ron Wilson, Senior Engineer, MPR Associates, 518.831.7546

-Original Message-
From: Rich Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:47 AM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Stephan Beal wrote:

> google code award implies that it's free (doesn't it?)

> Only to people not used to open source. "Release early, release
often."

> Definitely not. Its simplicity is its main beauty.

Stephan,

   Good comments from your point of view. However, what the development
team
needs to define is the audience -- or audiences -- they want to
effectively
reach. Not everyone looking at the web site is a linux/*BSD user, highly
involved with database management systems, code development, or other
technical aspects. Quite often the key decision-maker knows little about
the
technology, but needs to be assured that there is a solid business
reason
for adopting it. These folks need to see something more appealing to
them.

Rich

-- 
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  Integrity
Credibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
<http://www.appl-ecosys.com> Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax:
503-667-8863


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RE: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Evans, Mark (Tandem)]

I love the website.  Suggested improvements:
- link to the users site from home:
http://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@sqlite.org/info.html
- a publicity page that contains links to interviews, reviews, etc.
- expand the list of things that cannot be done with virtual tables (it
lists triggers but not check constraints and maybe other things)
- developers page with pictures and brief bios

Cheers,
Mark

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 10:29 AM
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website
> 
> We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite website 
> and would love to have suggestions from the community.  If 
> you have any ideas on how to improve the SQLite website, 
> please constribute either to the mailing list or directly to me.
> 
> Here are some links to competing database products that might 
> inspire comments:
> 
>http://www.postgresql.org/
>http://www.firebirdsql.org/
>http://www.hsqldb.org/
>http://opensource.ingres.com/
>http://db.apache.org/derby/
>http://exist.sourceforge.net/
> 
> Among the comments received already are these:
> 
>   (1) It is not clear from the homepage that the software
>   is free.
>   (2) Half the page is devoted to talking about bugs in
>   the software.  This suggests low quality.
>   (3) The "News" contains scary words: "radical changes".
>   (4) Three releases in as many months suggests the
>   code is not stable.
>   (5) Move the BigNameUsers to the front page
>   (see http://www.sqlite.org/wiki?p=BigNameUsers)
>   (6) Need more eye-candy.
> 
> I do not necessary agree with the above comments, but I am 
> open to any and all ideas.  You will not hurt my feels, so 
> speak freely.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your input.
> 
> --
> D. Richard Hipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ---
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> --
> ---
> 
> 

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Rich Shepard]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Stephan Beal wrote:


google code award implies that it's free (doesn't it?)



Only to people not used to open source. "Release early, release often."



Definitely not. Its simplicity is its main beauty.


Stephan,

  Good comments from your point of view. However, what the development team
needs to define is the audience -- or audiences -- they want to effectively
reach. Not everyone looking at the web site is a linux/*BSD user, highly
involved with database management systems, code development, or other
technical aspects. Quite often the key decision-maker knows little about the
technology, but needs to be assured that there is a solid business reason
for adopting it. These folks need to see something more appealing to them.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |  IntegrityCredibility
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.|Innovation
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Michael Schlenker]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:

We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite
website and would love to have suggestions from the
community.  If you have any ideas on how to improve
the SQLite website, please constribute either to the
mailing list or directly to me.

Among the comments received already are these:

  (1) It is not clear from the homepage that the software
  is free.

Its stated on the homepage, but maybe it should be in one of the
first paragraphs, not at the last bullet in the list. I would
reorder the features list quite a bit, the more technical
details down (like the byte order thing and some others).


  (2) Half the page is devoted to talking about bugs in
  the software.  This suggests low quality.
  (3) The "News" contains scary words: "radical changes".
  (4) Three releases in as many months suggests the
  code is not stable.

All those are under 'NEWS'. Maybe make the news section smaller
and provide 'details' and 'developer details' links. Then the
news could be like an 'executive summary' and the real facts
would be listed under details and developer details.


  (5) Move the BigNameUsers to the front page
  (see http://www.sqlite.org/wiki?p=BigNameUsers)

Propaganda isn't bad. Maybe a rotating banner like it is found on many
websites that lists one of those with 'used by' for every page visit.


  (6) Need more eye-candy.

Not really. Its simple, clean and nice.

One thing that might be worth it, is a bit of cleanup of the menu in
the upper right corner, maybe group a bit.

I see these main categories there:
Code/Binaries: cvs, download, contrib
About: support, license, news?
Documentation: quick start, faq, syntax, wiki (changes?/news?)
Development: bugs, changes, timeline

Currently the trackers and the main website are not really integrated,
more side by side..., don't know if it would be good to change it.

Michael
Michael


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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Joe Wilson]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite
> website and would love to have suggestions from the
> community.  If you have any ideas on how to improve
> the SQLite website, please constribute either to the
> mailing list or directly to me.

Prize giveaway to millionth page visitor.


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Roger Binns]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> If you have any ideas on how to improve
> the SQLite website, please constribute either to the
> mailing list or directly to me.

"Search" is missing on the main page.  I always have to click around a
bit until a page with search appears.  As for all the other content you
think people miss, a small sidebar labelled "Popular Content" with links
to the relevant pages will do the trick.  If you want to go the whole
way then an animated gif with big name user logos, Google open source
awards, quotes from happy customers etc as a page banner would help.

Roger
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Re: [sqlite] Suggests for improving the SQLite website

[Stephan Beal]

On Nov 8, 2007 5:29 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We are looking at renovating the design of the SQLite
> website and would love to have suggestions from the
> community.  If you have any ideas on how to improve
> the SQLite website, please constribute either to the
> mailing list or directly to me.

One of the things i love about the sqlite site is how lightweight and
simple it is. The only thing which i find marginally confusing is how
to figure out which bugs report to select when i'm in the mood to
check out the latest open tickets. That said, i don't have any
concrete suggestions except, "leave it all the same, except for making
the bug reports selection a bit more intuitive."

>   (1) It is not clear from the homepage that the software
>   is free.

google code award implies that it's free (doesn't it?)

>   (4) Three releases in as many months suggests the
>   code is not stable.

Only to people not used to open source. "Release early, release often."

>   (6) Need more eye-candy.

Definitely not. Its simplicity is its main beauty.


-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/

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