subject:"\[Biofuel\] The New Blue States\/Country"

Keith,

Yikes!  I didn't mean to say conspiracy theory groups and Bush-bashers
are one in the same.  I'm not saying Bush or any other politician hasn't
lied.  I don't know.  Whether or not a person believes what they say
does not make them a conspiracy theorist.  Corporations do not love
anybody.  Their purpose is to make money.  A person has got to
understand that any corporation does not have their customers' best
interests in mind and those customers need to keep that in mind when
buying their products.

The danger with propaganda such as this card game is that it feeds on a
person's innate desire to believe what they want to believe regardless
of the level of truth.  Looking at those cards, I can't separate truth
from fiction.  Can you honestly say those cards tell the whole truth and
nothing but the truth?  Look at what is not there: I found this quote at
http://www.monsantosucks.com/Newsnviews/revolvedoor.htm "Jack Watson. .
.former chief of staff to the President of the United States, Jimmy
Carter, . . .now a staff lawyer with Monsanto Corporation in Washington,
D.C."  He doesn't have a card.  I wonder what he has to day about
Monsanto.  I noticed as well that many of the corporations, such as
Caterpillar, that have cards are well represented by labor unions.  Is
the UAW in cahoots with building these "killer" bulldozers? See
http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/cards/diamonds/five.html  It becomes
problematic when a person buys into these cards as solid evidence and
thus propagates even more lies.

I really think Hakan asked a rhetorical question.  Marilyn's attempt to
answer with this card game served more to inflame the issue than answer
a question.

I am working on reviewing your suggested readings with an eye toward
trying to separate fact from fiction and propaganda from sound evidence.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:50 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

>Chris,
>
>Given the context the statement leaned toward either legitimate
>government involvement from any number of agencies, or downright
>censorship.  That card game is quite derogatory toward many gov't
>officials and business leaders.  It spins a grain of truth to whip up
>frenzy within conspiracy theory groups and other anti-government/big
>business, Bush-bashing circles.

ROFL!!! Conspiracy theory groups and **other** anti-government/big 
business, Bush-bashing circles??? Now, once we've fought our way 
through this confetti of labellings, does that mean that if you don't 
swallow the Bushies' lies over the Iraq invasion and just about 
everything else you're just a conspiracy theorist? And that if you 
don't believe Monsanto Loves You And So Does Haliburton you're just a 
conspiracy theorist?

>No card game can reflect reality.

Images can though, especially well-annotated ones. There can be a lot 
more than a grain of truth in the proverbial thousand words, 
especially in a whole suite of them.

>A
>person's objectivity can be compromised by this sort of stuff.

I don't think we can put a lot of trust in statements about what can 
compromise a person's objectivity from someone who apparently thinks 
"Bush-bashing" is a conspiracy theory.

>The game
>may be banned on Ebay because nobody will claim ownership.

Clutching at straws, aren't you? What indication do you have that it 
has anything to do with ownership, let alone that nobody will claim 
it? eBay would not be the first Internet resource in the US to 
indulge in this sort of squeaky-clean self-censorship, and IIRC it 
may not be the first time for eBay either.

>Marilyn
>brought it to our attention.  Perhaps she would care to defend her
>statement.

No need at all for her to do that, but I suspect you're going to have 
a hard time defending yours.

Why no need for Marilyn to defend her statement? Because, far from 
the dread cards being used to whip up a frenzy within conspiracy 
theory groups etc etc, Marilyn used them as a direct and economical 
answer to a question from Hakan: "Wonder from which industries they 
[US leaders] are coming?" That's what the cards tell you. Whether 
it's derogatory or not is irrelevant. Unless you can demonstrate that 
what they say is inaccurate, and intentionally so, your current 
(conspiracy?) theory falls at least as flat as the original copyright 
one did.

More than one list member has told you to go and do some homework but 
it's clear that you haven't. Conspiracy Bush-bashing aside, have you 
read these yet?

>Go to http://globalissues.org/ (for instance) and do some studying. 
>You can start with these:
>
>http://www.mail-archive.com/bio

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Mike Weaver

You've taken some liberties with this translation.  The original reads 
"Thall shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass".  Well, you haven't seen my 
neighbor in her hot tub.  I have a lot of trouble with this one.  Some 
afternoons I covet for an hour or so before I go back to work...


Tom Irwin wrote:


Hi Tim,
 
You mean they don´t have Fox News and CNN in Missouri. Perhaps this 
will help. When someone goes into another country to take what belongs 
to that country they are breaking this one.
 
*You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your 
neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, 
or anything that belongs to your neighbor." *
** 
*You do understand that on don´t you Tim. I think last part applies to 
oil. What do you think?*
** 
*Tom Irwin*



*From:* Tim Schlueter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:25:25 -0300
    *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Tom,

 


Not sure I understand.  Please elaborate.

 


Tim

 




*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
]
*On Behalf Of *Tom Irwin
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:25 PM
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
    
    *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

 


Hi Tim and all,

 


You mean it's like Fox News and CNN but in reverse?

 


Tom Irwin

 




*From:* Tim Schlueter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

*Sent:* Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:42:33 -0300
    *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Chris,

Given the context the statement leaned toward either legitimate
government involvement from any number of agencies, or downright
censorship. That card game is quite derogatory toward many gov't
officials and business leaders. It spins a grain of truth to
whip up
frenzy within conspiracy theory groups and other
anti-government/big
business, Bush-bashing circles. No card game can reflect
reality. A
person's objectivity can be compromised by this sort of stuff.
The game
may be banned on Ebay because nobody will claim ownership. Marilyn
brought it to our attention. Perhaps she would care to defend her
statement.

Tim

snip

 
 




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Mike Weaver

Heck,

most Americans don't even know the proverbial "Franklin stove" (round 
and made of steel) has nothing to do with Ben Franklin.

Tom Irwin wrote:

Hi Kim,

Don't let those secrets out Kim. You'll have more competition. Let 
them stay dumb and in debt. As far as knowing history, which history 
are we talking about? Are we talking about the history that says John 
F. Kennedy was killed by lone gunman Lee Harvey Oswald? Or the real 
History?

Tom Irwin

*From:* Garth & Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:12:29 -0300
    *Subject:* RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings,

What you say is true, but how many Americans know their history?
Ask most
Texans who won the civil war and they answer: Texas. While I do
know that
Texans are not the same as American's, in most people's books,
about half
of my neighbors are from California and they are no better.

Somehow, it has become American to support our industry and stay
in hock up
to wazoo. What gets me, it that most of the stuff is not made in
America. It is made elsewhere, an American name is added, then it
is sold
to Americans. The joy of living in the states is the right to pay off
debts without a penalty, especially your mortgage. I do know American
history and wish more Americans did and were proud of the good
parts, I
think it would make a nicer country.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:00 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
>"I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for myself or to
make
>things at home. I am criticized in this manner about once a week,
here in
>Texas."
>
>OK you have my attention.
>
>ANY American who tells you that making something at home is
un-American
>hasn't the foggiest notion of this country's history and culture.
>Ingenuity and individuality have contributed greatly to the
American way
>of life, for better or worse.
>
>If anyone you know has any doubt about this, tell them to do
their your
>own research and find out how many people in this country are
amateur
>inventors and basement tinkerers. This didn't just start
yesterday. As a
>new Englander, I admired so called "Yankee Ingenuity" and the
folklorish
>status that it developed throughout the post industrial
revolution. Some
>can argue that this kind of activity goes farther back than that -
>applying extraordinary ingenuity during the revolutionary war
with the
>development and manufacturing processes used to produce the
Kentucky long
>rifle and other technologies of it's day. Many of the framers of the
>constitution were tinkerers in their own right. Ask him/her if
BENJAMIN
>FRANKLIN sounds like a familiar name.
>
>Mike

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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread marilyn

Tim wrote
...Marilyn brought it to our attention.  Perhaps she would care to 
defend her statement.

Tim,

I first wrote about the cards in response to Hakan wondering 
what kind of companies members of the Bush administration 
come from. I remembered a year ago someone had told me how 
many of them came from oil and war industries and these cards 
showed their backgrounds. I searched on google to find them 
and found the card's website:
http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/order/index.html

One of the sites I saw mentioned they had been banned on ebay 
so I added that comment. I have tried to find that site again today 
and am sorry I can't. I went to ebay today and did see one deck 
them listed, so now I see that comment was wrong.

My search did turn up one similar deck of cards called "Axis 
Weasels" that had been banned on ebay, but it now appears the 
ban is lifted. For those who want to know about this ban, it is 
described on their web site:
http://www.thebushadministration.com/overview.html

I apologize for passing on misleading information and 
appreciate being asked to straighten it out.

Marilyn




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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country





Hi Tim,
 
You mean they don´t have Fox News and CNN in Missouri. Perhaps this will help. When someone goes into another country to take what belongs to that country they are breaking this one.
 
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 
 
You do understand that on don´t you Tim. I think last part applies to oil. What do you think?
 
Tom Irwin


From: Tim Schlueter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:25:25 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Tom,
 
Not sure I understand.  Please elaborate.
 
Tim
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom IrwinSent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:25 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
 

Hi Tim and all,

 

You mean it's like Fox News and CNN but in reverse?

 

Tom Irwin

 



From: Tim Schlueter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:42:33 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/CountryChris,Given the context the statement leaned toward either legitimategovernment involvement from any number of agencies, or downrightcensorship. That card game is quite derogatory toward many gov'tofficials and business leaders. It spins a grain of truth to whip upfrenzy within conspiracy theory groups and other anti-government/bigbusiness, Bush-bashing circles. No card game can reflect reality. Aperson's objectivity can be compromised by this sort of stuff. The gamemay be banned on Ebay because nobody will claim ownership. Marilynbrought it to our attention. Perhaps she would care to defend herstatement.Timsnip


 
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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Keith Addison


Chris,

Given the context the statement leaned toward either legitimate
government involvement from any number of agencies, or downright
censorship.  That card game is quite derogatory toward many gov't
officials and business leaders.  It spins a grain of truth to whip up
frenzy within conspiracy theory groups and other anti-government/big
business, Bush-bashing circles.


ROFL!!! Conspiracy theory groups and **other** anti-government/big 
business, Bush-bashing circles??? Now, once we've fought our way 
through this confetti of labellings, does that mean that if you don't 
swallow the Bushies' lies over the Iraq invasion and just about 
everything else you're just a conspiracy theorist? And that if you 
don't believe Monsanto Loves You And So Does Haliburton you're just a 
conspiracy theorist?



No card game can reflect reality.


Images can though, especially well-annotated ones. There can be a lot 
more than a grain of truth in the proverbial thousand words, 
especially in a whole suite of them.



A
person's objectivity can be compromised by this sort of stuff.


I don't think we can put a lot of trust in statements about what can 
compromise a person's objectivity from someone who apparently thinks 
"Bush-bashing" is a conspiracy theory.



The game
may be banned on Ebay because nobody will claim ownership.


Clutching at straws, aren't you? What indication do you have that it 
has anything to do with ownership, let alone that nobody will claim 
it? eBay would not be the first Internet resource in the US to 
indulge in this sort of squeaky-clean self-censorship, and IIRC it 
may not be the first time for eBay either.



Marilyn
brought it to our attention.  Perhaps she would care to defend her
statement.


No need at all for her to do that, but I suspect you're going to have 
a hard time defending yours.


Why no need for Marilyn to defend her statement? Because, far from 
the dread cards being used to whip up a frenzy within conspiracy 
theory groups etc etc, Marilyn used them as a direct and economical 
answer to a question from Hakan: "Wonder from which industries they 
[US leaders] are coming?" That's what the cards tell you. Whether 
it's derogatory or not is irrelevant. Unless you can demonstrate that 
what they say is inaccurate, and intentionally so, your current 
(conspiracy?) theory falls at least as flat as the original copyright 
one did.


More than one list member has told you to go and do some homework but 
it's clear that you haven't. Conspiracy Bush-bashing aside, have you 
read these yet?


Go to http://globalissues.org/ (for instance) and do some studying. 
You can start with these:


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg39994.html
Re: [Biofuel] US Foreign aid

http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51848.html
[Biofuel] Inequality in wealth


Or these?

http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-August/002660.html
[Biofuel] Famines as Commercial Opportunity - was Re: The New Blue 
States/Country


http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-August/002657.html

[Biofuel] Famine As Commerce - was Re: The New Blue States/Country

http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-August/002661.html
[Biofuel] The US and Foreign Aid Assistance - was Re: The New Blue 
States/Country


Best wishes

Keith



Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:37 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

i don't see how that statement would lead one to believe it was
government
censorship.  it has a certain conspiratorial ring to it, no doubt.  not
entirely
unfounded, since there's a ton of stuff sold electronically/via download
on
ebay.  sounds as if not even the copyright holder(s) of the card game
are being
allowed to sell it.

-chris



In a message dated 8/16/05 10:23:48 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< In other words, the reason for the ban may have to do with copyright
legalities as opposed to some sort of governmentally imposed
restriction, which the
statement below leads one to believe. >>



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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country









Tom,

 

Not sure I understand.  Please elaborate.

 

Tim

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Irwin
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005
1:25 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New
Blue States/Country



 



Hi Tim and all,





 





You mean it's like Fox News and CNN but in reverse?





 





Tom Irwin





 







From: Tim Schlueter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:42:33
-0300
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New
Blue States/Country

Chris,

Given the context the statement leaned toward either legitimate
government involvement from any number of agencies, or downright
censorship. That card game is quite derogatory toward many gov't
officials and business leaders. It spins a grain of truth to whip up
frenzy within conspiracy theory groups and other anti-government/big
business, Bush-bashing circles. No card game can reflect reality. A
person's objectivity can be compromised by this sort of stuff. The game
may be banned on Ebay because nobody will claim ownership. Marilyn
brought it to our attention. Perhaps she would care to defend her
statement.

Tim

snip








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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country





Hi Tim and all,
 
You mean it's like Fox News and CNN but in reverse?
 
Tom Irwin


From: Tim Schlueter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:42:33 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/CountryChris,Given the context the statement leaned toward either legitimategovernment involvement from any number of agencies, or downrightcensorship. That card game is quite derogatory toward many gov'tofficials and business leaders. It spins a grain of truth to whip upfrenzy within conspiracy theory groups and other anti-government/bigbusiness, Bush-bashing circles. No card game can reflect reality. Aperson's objectivity can be compromised by this sort of stuff. The gamemay be banned on Ebay because nobody will claim ownership. Marilynbrought it to our attention. Perhaps she would care to defend herstatement.Timsnip___
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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Chris,

Given the context the statement leaned toward either legitimate
government involvement from any number of agencies, or downright
censorship.  That card game is quite derogatory toward many gov't
officials and business leaders.  It spins a grain of truth to whip up
frenzy within conspiracy theory groups and other anti-government/big
business, Bush-bashing circles.  No card game can reflect reality.  A
person's objectivity can be compromised by this sort of stuff.  The game
may be banned on Ebay because nobody will claim ownership.  Marilyn
brought it to our attention.  Perhaps she would care to defend her
statement.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 11:37 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

i don't see how that statement would lead one to believe it was
government 
censorship.  it has a certain conspiratorial ring to it, no doubt.  not
entirely 
unfounded, since there's a ton of stuff sold electronically/via download
on 
ebay.  sounds as if not even the copyright holder(s) of the card game
are being 
allowed to sell it.

-chris



In a message dated 8/16/05 10:23:48 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< In other words, the reason for the ban may have to do with copyright 
legalities as opposed to some sort of governmentally imposed
restriction, which the 
statement below leads one to believe. >>

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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Michael Redler

Chris: "...but your comment made such a point of view conditional on being an anarchist."
After reading my previous post, I agree that it could have been interpreted that way. So I responded to that implicitly:
Mike: "If you thought that I was alluding to folklore, it was not meant that way."
Chris: "are you talking about the transformation of political thought in the american labor movement? or revolutionary russia (whether in terms of ideology or actual events)?"
Having been involved in local socialist party activities (at a time when I had loyalty toward a single concept of government rather than to incorporate elements of many), there is a consensus that the first to fuel the labor movement in the upper mid-west were Trotskyists and that they held firm to the strategies that had so much initial success in turning a bread revolt into the Russian revolution. So I see similarities between the bottom-up organization of soviets and the union worker's collectives.
Folklore:
There are different interpretations to what happened at the beginning of the Russian revolution. Please be aware that if you run into any members of the ISO in your travels and you tell them:
"from a Leninist or Trotskyist perspective, soviets would be the prototype for social/political organization in the future, after the dictatorship of the proletariat metamorphosed into a true communist society (utopia?). meanwhile, they would theoretically be the democratic building blocks for a communist state (presumably a proletarian representative republican dictatorship, lol) that would lead the society to that true communist future."
...be prepared for an ear full.
They will take exception to the top-down "republican dictatorship" you referred to and you will be the one accused of being influenced by folklore.
Chris: "anarchism was a very important current in the early days of the labor movement (including in the united states) as well as the international socialist movement."
That was very carefully worded. One can argue that many things helped spark the International socialist movement (in addition to Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, etc.). If I didn't read this part twice, I would think that you were implying that socialism has anarchism to thank for it's existence. But, I think I know what you're saying.
Finally:
Chris: "actually, i wasn't trying to convince you of any particular interpretation of history or historical events. just to point out an apparent inaccuracy."
You left the word "teach" out (i.e. teach/convince). By responding, you are doing one or both of these things.
Thank you for the references. I will find time to use them.
Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
hi michael.>I don't think I'm off base on this.not sure specifically what you're referring to. but i wasn't trying to suggest that by associating the two ideas ("lone individual" and "anarchist") you were maligning anarchists or anarchism.>My statement/opinion simply said that an anarchist would not think it's impossible "for >the lone individual to protect their own basic rights.">If you thought that I was alluding to folklore, it was not meant that way. I think that an >anarchist, in its most general meaning (above) could see this as quite possible. It's only>an opinion.speaking in terms of the "most general meaning", any person of almost any political or philosophical persuasion *could* see this (that the 'lone individual' could 'protect their own basic rights') as possible. but your comment
made such a point of view conditional on being an anarchist.conditionals introduce a sense of specifity. in this case, that there is something specific about being an anarchist that would allow him/her to believe such a thing. add to that the fact that people (in the u.s., at least) don't normally hear/read the word anarchist and think of the paris commune, or the russian imperial navy, for example. so even if you were thinking in very general terms, this is not how it reads. rather, it reads (whether or not you intended it to) as being rooted in the common misconception of anarchists as being sort of hyper-radical, nihilistic individualists or sociopaths, and perhaps the stereotype of the bomb-throwing anarchist as well. not sure i put that very well, but i think you get my general idea.anyway, my reply was not intended to level accusations or flame you. just to inform.>As for the labor movement, I
would argue that the beginning of the labor movement had >more to do with admirers of Lenin and Trotsky rather than anarchists. No. The roots go farther back than that. I'm referring to the late ninteenth century, roughly 1870's to 1880's.>Not only did Debs run for president as a socialist, his rise to popularity was (at least >partly) due to his involvement in the Industrial Workers of the World. He was only one >of many socialists who volunteered to help the struggle.>You said: "they would be replaced with local self-rule by worker's cooperatives.">I don't questi

RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Kim,

Thanks for your frankness.  "Tolerance" is the politically correct
buzzword these days, in the public arena anyway.  Privately folks are
free to be as intolerant as money can buy.  Discrimination is running
rampant not that anyone would admit to it but you can judge a tree by
its fruit.

I feared the word "meek" wouldn't convey my intent properly.  I did not
mean "doormat!"  Instead I meant non-resented wisdom, patience and
gentleness especially while enduring hardship.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:05 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings,

No, I do not yearn for Canada.  Canadians have their faults too, just 
different ones.  Me meek, not in this lifetime.  It is true that the red
in 
my hair is more a memory than reality these days, I am used to standing
up 
for what I believe is right.

Actually the racism is what I find hardest to take in the US and no, it
is 
not just in the south.  The closed neighborhoods that do not want change
or 
new people are not particularly healthy either.  What really upset me
when 
I first moved here were the neighborhoods based on a certain religion!
How 
to create narrow minded children.  However, I do understand that such 
neighborhoods are now springing up in Canada, as well.

The main difference I find is the lack of tolerance for anyone different
or 
anything different.  I guess Canadians have so many immigrant per
capita, 
that interest in the different cultures has managed to keep things a
little 
more tolerant.  And yes, I am well aware of the prejedice that those
from 
Pakistan ran into when they arrived in Canada.  I am not saying anyone
is 
perfect.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:22 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
>Kim,
>
>Gracious me!  As they say the meek shall inherit the earth!  I believe
>that you fit that bill.  How soothing and reflective are your words.
>You must yearn for Canada.  I am curious as to what you are referring
to
>wrt "American attitudes?"  It doesn't sound very complimentary.  Not
>that I'm offended though I am interested in your perspective.
>
>Tim
>
>--

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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread capt3d

i don't see how that statement would lead one to believe it was government 
censorship.  it has a certain conspiratorial ring to it, no doubt.  not 
entirely 
unfounded, since there's a ton of stuff sold electronically/via download on 
ebay.  sounds as if not even the copyright holder(s) of the card game are being 
allowed to sell it.

-chris



In a message dated 8/16/05 10:23:48 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< In other words, the reason for the ban may have to do with copyright 
legalities as opposed to some sort of governmentally imposed restriction, which 
the 
statement below leads one to believe. >>

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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country





Hi Kim,
 
A a nefarious politician once said, " The Devil is in the details ". We have to teach the truth to live sustainable. Fools will always suffer but I appreciate your great heart and dedication.
 
Tom Irwin 


From: Garth & Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:13:10 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/CountryGreetings,Why would I want to see anyone suffer?  I teach living debt free whenever I get the chance, including last week to the employees at my bank.  I would like to live in a sustainable world and the only way I can see of getting there is to teach at every opportunity.  But I can not teach  those who do not want to learn.  I do truly wish, Bright Blessings to everyone.As for history, the big general sweeps teach us more than getting lost in quibbling over details.  Even if Thucydides made up his whole book, it does not matter.  He still lets us see through the eyes of someone in another time.Kimsnip___
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread capt3d

hi michael.

 
>I don't think I'm off base on this.
 
not sure specifically what you're referring to.  but i wasn't trying to 
suggest that by associating the two ideas ("lone individual" and "anarchist") 
you 
were maligning anarchists or anarchism.
 
>My statement/opinion simply said that an anarchist would not think it's 
impossible "for >the lone individual to protect their own basic rights."
>If you thought that I was alluding to folklore, it was not meant that way. I 
think that an >anarchist, in its most general meaning (above) could see this 
as quite possible. It's only
>an opinion.
 
speaking in terms of the "most general meaning", any person of almost any 
political or philosophical persuasion *could* see this (that the 'lone 
individual' could 'protect their own basic rights') as possible.  but your 
comment made 
such a point of view conditional on being an anarchist.

conditionals introduce a sense of specifity.  in this case, that there is 
something specific about being an anarchist that would allow him/her to believe 
such a thing.  add to that the fact that people (in the u.s., at least) don't 
normally hear/read the word anarchist and think of the paris commune, or the 
russian imperial navy, for example.  so even if you were thinking in very 
general terms, this is not how it reads.  

rather, it reads (whether or not you intended it to) as being rooted in the 
common misconception of anarchists as being sort of hyper-radical, nihilistic 
individualists or sociopaths, and perhaps the stereotype of the bomb-throwing 
anarchist as well.  not sure i put that very well, but i think you get my 
general idea.

anyway, my reply was not intended to level accusations or flame you.  just to 
inform.
 
 
>As for the labor movement, I would argue that the beginning of the labor 
movement had >more to do with admirers of Lenin and Trotsky rather than 
anarchists. 
 
No.  The roots go farther back than that.  I'm referring to the late 
ninteenth century, roughly 1870's to 1880's.
 
>Not only did Debs run for president as a socialist, his rise to popularity 
was (at least >partly) due to his involvement in the Industrial Workers of the 
World. He was only one >of many socialists who volunteered to help the 
struggle.
>You said: "they would be replaced with local self-rule by worker's 
cooperatives."
>I don't question your history Chris.

actually, i wasn't so much talking about history, as about the political 
theory.  the history and the debates that rage about it, get rather complex and 
sometimes blurry.  to whit:

>However, I think "local self rule" quickly gave way to 
>a consolidation of power and later collective bargaining.

are you talking about the transformation of political thought in the american 
labor movement?  or revolutionary russia (whether in terms of ideology or 
actual events)?  

>The workers cooperatives
>relayed the sentiment of the workers to the larger bodies and (IMO) looked 
similar to a
>Soviet, Lenin and Trotsky's interpretation of "worker's cooperatives".

from a leninist or trotskyist perspective, soviets would be the prototype for 
social/political organization in the future, after the dictatorship of the 
proletariat metamorphosed into a true communist society (utopia?).  meanwhile, 
they would theoretically be the democratic building blocks for a communist 
state (presumably a proletarian representative republican dictatorship, lol) 
that 
would lead the society to that true communist future.

>That's my understanding of the events. If it doesn't match the consensus 
reached by >scholars of that period (which I am not), then I stand corrected.

i'm not sure there is a consensus, but as far as i'm concerned there's no 
doubt that in 1918, russia was experiencing a general, unorganized 
revolutionary 
uprising, among which there were some anarchist elements to be sure.  the 
bolsheviks merely watched its gathering momentum and opportunistically stepped 
in 
right as it was reaching critical mass.  the debate still rages about how 
things went wrong (IMO) from there.

>However, I need you to point me toward the references. . . .

i have read a number of surces on this stuff, though mostly quite a few years 
ago.  so no titles or authors come to mind.  i can only suggest googling 
"anarchist" with any one or combination of the following:  paris commune; 
levellers; haymarket; russian navy; october (or russian, or soviet, or 
bolshevik, 
etc,) revolution; makhnov; spanish civil war.  for a broader background (beyond 
october 1918) of socialist thought a/o the international socialist movement, 
you 
might try looking up "socialist international"

if you have a good public library or university library nearby, you can try 
there as well.

>. . .which will teach/convince me otherwise.

actually, i wasn't trying to convince you of any particular interpretation of 
history or historical events.  just to point out an apparent inaccuracy.  :^)

cheers,

-chris

[EMAIL PROTECTED

RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings,
Why would I want to see anyone suffer?  I teach living debt free
whenever I get the chance, including last week to the employees at my
bank.  I would like to live in a sustainable world and the only way
I can see of getting there is to teach at every opportunity.  But I
can not teach  those who do not want to learn.  I do truly
wish, Bright Blessings to everyone.
As for history, the big general sweeps teach us more than getting lost in
quibbling over details.  Even if Thucydides made up his whole book,
it does not matter.  He still lets us see through the eyes of
someone in another time.
Kim

At 10:27 AM 8/17/2005, you wrote:
Hi Kim,

Don't let those secrets out Kim. You'll have more competition. Let them
stay dumb and in debt. As far as knowing history, which history are we
talking about? Are we talking about the history that says John F. Kennedy
was killed by lone gunman Lee Harvey Oswald? Or the real History?

Tom Irwin

From: Garth & Kim Travis
[
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:12:29 -0300

Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings,

What you say is true, but how many Americans know their history? Ask
most 

Texans who won the civil war and they answer: Texas. While I do know
that 

Texans are not the same as American's, in most people's books, about
half 

of my neighbors are from California and they are no better.

Somehow, it has become American to support our industry and stay in
hock up 

to wazoo. What gets me, it that most of the stuff is not made in

America. It is made elsewhere, an American name is added, then it is
sold 

to Americans. The joy of living in the states is the right to pay off

debts without a penalty, especially your mortgage. I do know American

history and wish more Americans did and were proud of the good parts,
I 

think it would make a nicer country.

Bright Blessings,

Kim

At 04:00 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:

>"I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for myself
or to make 

>things at home. I am criticized in this manner about once a week,
here in 

>Texas."

>

>OK you have my attention.

>

>ANY American who tells you that making something at home is
un-American 

>hasn't the foggiest notion of this country's history and culture.

>Ingenuity and individuality have contributed greatly to the
American way 

>of life, for better or worse.

>

>If anyone you know has any doubt about this, tell them to do
their your 

>own research and find out how many people in this country are
amateur 

>inventors and basement tinkerers. This didn't just start
yesterday. As a 

>new Englander, I admired so called "Yankee Ingenuity"
and the folklorish 

>status that it developed throughout the post industrial
revolution. Some 

>can argue that this kind of activity goes farther back than that
- 

>applying extraordinary ingenuity during the revolutionary war
with the 

>development and manufacturing processes used to produce the
Kentucky long 

>rifle and other technologies of it's day. Many of the framers of
the 

>constitution were tinkerers in their own right. Ask him/her if
BENJAMIN 

>FRANKLIN sounds like a familiar name.

>

>Mike

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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country





Hi Kim,
 
Don't let those secrets out Kim. You'll have more competition. Let them stay dumb and in debt. As far as knowing history, which history are we talking about? Are we talking about the history that says John F. Kennedy was killed by lone gunman Lee Harvey Oswald? Or the real History?
 
Tom Irwin


From: Garth & Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:12:29 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/CountryGreetings,What you say is true, but how many Americans know their history? Ask most Texans who won the civil war and they answer: Texas. While I do know that Texans are not the same as American's, in most people's books, about half of my neighbors are from California and they are no better.Somehow, it has become American to support our industry and stay in hock up to wazoo. What gets me, it that most of the stuff is not made in America. It is made elsewhere, an American name is added, then it is sold to Americans. The joy of living in the states is the right to pay off debts without a penalty, especially your mortgage. I do know American history and wish more Americans did and were proud of the good parts, I think it would make a nicer country.Bright Blessings,KimAt 04:00 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:>"I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for myself or to make >things at home. I am criticized in this manner about once a week, here in >Texas.">>OK you have my attention.>>ANY American who tells you that making something at home is un-American >hasn't the foggiest notion of this country's history and culture. >Ingenuity and individuality have contributed greatly to the American way >of life, for better or worse.>>If anyone you know has any doubt about this, tell them to do their your >own research and find out how many people in this country are amateur >inventors and basement tinkerers. This didn't just start yesterday. As a >new Englander, I admired so called "Yankee Ingenuity" and the folklorish >status that it developed throughout the post industrial revolution. Some >can argue that this kind of activity goes farther back than that - >applying extraordinary ingenuity during the revolutionary war with the >development and manufacturing processes used to produce the Kentucky long >rifle and other technologies of it's day. Many of the framers of the >constitution were tinkerers in their own right. Ask him/her if BENJAMIN >FRANKLIN sounds like a familiar name.>>Mike___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Greetings Marilyn,
You are not telling me anything I don't know, but you are totally 
correct.  Most people unfortunately get their ideas from 
hollywood/television and think it is real.  They are seriously unhappy when 
you shatter their vision of the world and they tend to attack the 
messenger.  We have been doing our own thing and slowly, people are 
starting to get interested in what we are doing.  The only way I have found 
to teach someone who does not want to learn, is to not let them know they 
are learning, at least for a while.  By example is all we 
have.  Thankfully, there are examples in many countries of Mother Earth, as 
exhibited by this list.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


Kim,

Having students who don't want to learn is the hardest part of
being a teacher, especially a history teacher because we have a
responsibility to create citizens who understand democracy and
participate in it wisely.

"If we don't know history we are condemened to repeat it." This is
one reason why the control of our media's news is so harmful.
People are not getting real information about the government
that is creating history (unless they can find it on the internet). But
when confronted with what is being covered up, many don't want
to hear it, and accuse the messengers of being conspiracy nuts.

Marilyn




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread marilyn

Kim wrote:
If you can tell me how to educate people who do not want to 
learn, I will do so. I own and run 2 yahoo lists...One on 
sustainable building and one on renewable energy.
  
Kim,

Having students who don't want to learn is the hardest part of 
being a teacher, especially a history teacher because we have a 
responsibility to create citizens who understand democracy and 
participate in it wisely. 

"If we don't know history we are condemened to repeat it." This is 
one reason why the control of our media's news is so harmful. 
People are not getting real information about the government 
that is creating history (unless they can find it on the internet). But 
when confronted with what is being covered up, many don't want 
to hear it, and accuse the messengers of being conspiracy nuts.

Marilyn

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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Joe Street

However significant or subtle one considers the passing or information
to be, one cannot dismiss the fact that the internet has the capacity
to transmit that information to a larger number of people than face to
face contact can, at least until one  reaches the point of having a
venue and an audience of large numbers.  I would guess that  Garth and
Kim, and others who care enough to even be on this list are already
doing both, that is posting ideas here and also in the minds of friends
and aquaintences in daily life.

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  "The world will never become a better place if you
just talk about it online."

  Wow! What a provocative statement.

  If:

  1.) The internet is the most powerful resource for information
and research in history.

  2.) That it's strength comes from the collective contributions
of all human beings with access to it and a willingness to contribute.

  Then:

  1.) Can one quantify the importance of one kind of contribution
(like an opinion) when compared to another (like a thesis or white
paper)?

  2.) Can one then quantify the influence one has on a cause or
struggle, depending on whether or not it is done on-line or in person?

  Mike 

  J Huntington Chase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  Garth
and Kim,
Maybe you should go out and educate some people to think otherwise.
The world will never become a better place if you just talk about it
online. Go out and help people notice their beliefs are so 1950s.
xoxox
hunt.

On 8/17/05, Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> No, I do not yearn for Canada. Canadians have their faults too,
just
> different ones. Me meek, not in this lifetime. It is true that the
red in
> my hair is more a memory than reality these days, I am used to
standing up
> for what I believe is right.
> 
> Actually the racism is what I find hardest to take in the US and
no, it is
> not just in the south. The closed neighborhoods that do not want
change or
> new people are not particularly healthy either. What really upset
me when
> I first moved here were the neighborhoods based on a certain
religion! How
> to create narrow minded children. However, I do understand that
such
> neighborhoods are now springing up in Canada, as well.
> 
> The main difference I find is the lack of tolerance for anyone
different or
> anything different. I guess Canadians have so many immigrant per
capita,
> that interest in the different cultures has managed to keep things
a little
> more tolerant. And yes, I am well aware of the prejedice that
those from
> Pakistan ran into when they arrived in Canada. I am not saying
anyone is
> perfect.
> 
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 
> At 03:22 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
> >Kim,
> >
> >Gracious me! As they say the meek shall inherit the earth! I
believe
> >that you fit that bill. How soothing and reflective are your
words.
> >You must yearn for Canada. I am curious as to what you are
referring to
> >wrt "American attitudes?" It doesn't sound very complimentary.
Not
> >that I'm offended though I am interested in your perspective.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >--
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Keith Addison

"The world will never become a better place if you just talk about it online."

Wow! What a provocative statement.

Yes!

If:

1.) The internet is the most powerful resource for information and 
research in history.

2.) That it's strength comes from the collective contributions 
of all human beings with access to it and a willingness to 
contribute.

Then:

1.) Can one quantify the importance of one kind of contribution 
(like an opinion) when compared to another (like a thesis or white 
paper)?

2.) Can one then quantify the influence one has on a cause or 
struggle, depending on whether or not it is done on-line or in 
person?

No, IMHO. To write off the Internet as an agent for change would be 
rash, and the idea that all that happens online is "just talk" is 
plain wrong.

A lot of our feedback at Journey to Forever results from our online 
work, whether via our website or the Biofuel list. People quite often 
say it's given them new hope and the courage to try, or even the 
courage to try again.

The Internet is a major factor, or the major factor, in the 
development of the "Other Superpower", worldwide opinion, which has 
among other things seen the biggest ever protests against war and 
toppled governments when they didn't comply. Meanwhile small groups 
with puny resources use the Internet to stop mega-corporations in 
their tracks. Just talk? How much biofuel is being made as a result 
of the "talk" that goes on here at the Biofuel list? How much less 
would it be if this group and others like it didn't exist?

Best wishes

Keith

Mike 

J Huntington Chase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Garth and Kim,
Maybe you should go out and educate some people to think otherwise.
The world will never become a better place if you just talk about it
online. Go out and help people notice their beliefs are so 1950s.
xoxox
hunt.

On 8/17/05, Garth & Kim Travis wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> No, I do not yearn for Canada. Canadians have their faults too, just
> different ones. Me meek, not in this lifetime. It is true that the red in
> my hair is more a memory than reality these days, I am used to standing up
> for what I believe is right.
>
> Actually the racism is what I find hardest to take in the US and no, it is
> not just in the south. The closed neighborhoods that do not want change or
> new people are not particularly healthy either. What really upset me when
> I ! first moved here were the neighborhoods based on a certain 
religion! How

> to create narrow minded children. However, I do understand that such
> neighborhoods are now springing up in Canada, as well.
>
> The main difference I find is the lack of tolerance for anyone different or
> anything different. I guess Canadians have so many immigrant per capita,
> that interest in the different cultures has managed to keep things a little
> more tolerant. And yes, I am well aware of the prejedice that those from
> Pakistan ran into when they arrived in Canada. I am not saying anyone is
> perfect.
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
> At 03:22 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
> >Kim,
> >
> >Gracious me! As they say the meek shall inherit the earth! I believe
> >that you fit that bill. How soothing and reflective are your words.
> >You must yearn for Canada. I am curious as ! to what you are referring to
> >wrt "American attitudes?" It doesn't sound very complimentary. Not
> >that I'm offended though I am interested in your perspective.
> >
> >Tim

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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Greetings,

If you can tell me how to educate people who do not want to learn, I will 
do so.  I was extremely active in Literacy Volunteers of America for 12 
years.  I worked as a trainer in the Brazos Valley and I tried to run a 
literacy council in Bedias, where the illiterate rate is over 40%.  We had 
free tutors available to anyone who wanted one, guess what?  No 
students!  The bank and the post office were telling people that free 
lessons were available, but still no students!


We live our philosophy, in big letters and out front.  We are trying very 
hard for a truly sustainable life and hope that as our place comes 
together, people will ask how we are accomplishing this, but you can not 
make people with no interest learn.  We are slowly getting questions about 
the health of our animals and grass, but when we explain, they laugh and 
tell us that won't work.  The evidence is in front of them, but we must be 
lying or something.


I am on-line, and although I haven't had time lately, I do regular rants 
about sustainable living, especially about sustainable farming on this 
list. Look in the archives.  I own and run 2 yahoo lists, both of around 
400 people.  One on sustainable building and one on renewable energy.  Plus 
the 20 other lists that I am on and active, sharing what I know and have 
learned and learning from others. If that is not being out there trying to 
teach, I don't know what you want.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:09 AM 8/17/2005, you wrote:

Garth and Kim,
Maybe you should go out and educate some people to think otherwise.
The world will never become a better place if you just talk about it
online. Go out and help people notice their beliefs are so 1950s.
xoxox
hunt.




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Michael Redler


"The world will never become a better place if you just talk about it online."
 
Wow! What a provocative statement.
 
If:
 
1.) The internet is the most powerful resource for information and research in history.
 
2.) That it's strength comes from the collective contributions of all human beings with access to it and a willingness to contribute.
 
Then:
 
1.) Can one quantify the importance of one kind of contribution (like an opinion) when compared to another (like a thesis or white paper)?
 
2.) Can one then quantify the influence one has on a cause or struggle, depending on whether or not it is done on-line or in person?
 
Mike J Huntington Chase <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Garth and Kim,Maybe you should go out and educate some people to think otherwise.The world will never become a better place if you just talk about itonline. Go out and help people notice their beliefs are so 1950s.xoxoxhunt.On 8/17/05, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Greetings,> > No, I do not yearn for Canada. Canadians have their faults too, just> different ones. Me meek, not in this lifetime. It is true that the red in> my hair is more a memory than reality these days, I am used to standing up> for what I believe is right.> > Actually the racism is what I find hardest to take in the US and no, it is> not just in the south. The closed neighborhoods that do not want change or> new people are not particularly healthy either. What really upset me when> I first
 moved here were the neighborhoods based on a certain religion! How> to create narrow minded children. However, I do understand that such> neighborhoods are now springing up in Canada, as well.> > The main difference I find is the lack of tolerance for anyone different or> anything different. I guess Canadians have so many immigrant per capita,> that interest in the different cultures has managed to keep things a little> more tolerant. And yes, I am well aware of the prejedice that those from> Pakistan ran into when they arrived in Canada. I am not saying anyone is> perfect.> > Bright Blessings,> Kim> > At 03:22 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:> >Kim,> >> >Gracious me! As they say the meek shall inherit the earth! I believe> >that you fit that bill. How soothing and reflective are your words.> >You must yearn for Canada. I am curious as to what
 you are referring to> >wrt "American attitudes?" It doesn't sound very complimentary. Not> >that I'm offended though I am interested in your perspective.> >> >Tim> >> >--> > > > ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> >___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
 Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread J Huntington Chase

Garth and Kim,
Maybe you should go out and educate some people to think otherwise.
The world will never become a better place if you just talk about it
online. Go out and help people notice their beliefs are so 1950s.
xoxox
hunt.

On 8/17/05, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> No, I do not yearn for Canada.  Canadians have their faults too, just
> different ones.  Me meek, not in this lifetime.  It is true that the red in
> my hair is more a memory than reality these days, I am used to standing up
> for what I believe is right.
> 
> Actually the racism is what I find hardest to take in the US and no, it is
> not just in the south.  The closed neighborhoods that do not want change or
> new people are not particularly healthy either.  What really upset me when
> I first moved here were the neighborhoods based on a certain religion!  How
> to create narrow minded children.  However, I do understand that such
> neighborhoods are now springing up in Canada, as well.
> 
> The main difference I find is the lack of tolerance for anyone different or
> anything different.  I guess Canadians have so many immigrant per capita,
> that interest in the different cultures has managed to keep things a little
> more tolerant.  And yes, I am well aware of the prejedice that those from
> Pakistan ran into when they arrived in Canada.  I am not saying anyone is
> perfect.
> 
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 
> At 03:22 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
> >Kim,
> >
> >Gracious me!  As they say the meek shall inherit the earth!  I believe
> >that you fit that bill.  How soothing and reflective are your words.
> >You must yearn for Canada.  I am curious as to what you are referring to
> >wrt "American attitudes?"  It doesn't sound very complimentary.  Not
> >that I'm offended though I am interested in your perspective.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >--
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
>

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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Greetings,

What you say is true, but how many Americans know their history?  Ask most 
Texans who won the civil war and they answer: Texas.  While I do know that 
Texans are not the same as American's, in most people's books, about half 
of my neighbors are from California and they are no better.


Somehow, it has become American to support our industry and stay in hock up 
to wazoo.  What gets me, it that most of the stuff is not made in 
America.  It is made elsewhere, an American name is added, then it is sold 
to Americans.  The joy of living in the states is the right to pay off 
debts without a penalty, especially your mortgage.  I do know American 
history and wish more Americans did and were proud of the good parts, I 
think it would make a nicer country.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 04:00 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
"I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for myself or to make 
things at home.  I am criticized in this manner about once a week, here in 
Texas."


OK you have my attention.

ANY American who tells you that making something at home is un-American 
hasn't the foggiest notion of this country's history and culture. 
Ingenuity and individuality have contributed greatly to the American way 
of life, for better or worse.


If anyone you know has any doubt about this, tell them to do their your 
own research and find out how many people in this country are amateur 
inventors and basement tinkerers. This didn't just start yesterday. As a 
new Englander, I admired so called "Yankee Ingenuity" and the folklorish 
status that it developed throughout the post industrial revolution. Some 
can argue that this kind of activity goes farther back than that - 
applying extraordinary ingenuity during the revolutionary war with the 
development and manufacturing processes used to produce the Kentucky long 
rifle and other technologies of it's day. Many of the framers of the 
constitution were tinkerers in their own right. Ask him/her if BENJAMIN 
FRANKLIN sounds like a familiar name.


Mike




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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Greetings,

No, I do not yearn for Canada.  Canadians have their faults too, just 
different ones.  Me meek, not in this lifetime.  It is true that the red in 
my hair is more a memory than reality these days, I am used to standing up 
for what I believe is right.


Actually the racism is what I find hardest to take in the US and no, it is 
not just in the south.  The closed neighborhoods that do not want change or 
new people are not particularly healthy either.  What really upset me when 
I first moved here were the neighborhoods based on a certain religion!  How 
to create narrow minded children.  However, I do understand that such 
neighborhoods are now springing up in Canada, as well.


The main difference I find is the lack of tolerance for anyone different or 
anything different.  I guess Canadians have so many immigrant per capita, 
that interest in the different cultures has managed to keep things a little 
more tolerant.  And yes, I am well aware of the prejedice that those from 
Pakistan ran into when they arrived in Canada.  I am not saying anyone is 
perfect.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:22 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:

Kim,

Gracious me!  As they say the meek shall inherit the earth!  I believe
that you fit that bill.  How soothing and reflective are your words.
You must yearn for Canada.  I am curious as to what you are referring to
wrt "American attitudes?"  It doesn't sound very complimentary.  Not
that I'm offended though I am interested in your perspective.

Tim

--




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Doug Foskey

Hakan,
  except the poor 'terrorists'. (but I do not condone terrorism, but I wish we 
(as all the countries of the 'West' could understand the frustration that 
drives radical acts such as terrorism.)

regards Doug

On Wednesday 17 August 2005 6:36, Hakan Falk wrote:
> Doug,
>
> It will be hard times for US, but I do not belive on the nuclear option.
> It is nothing that really can be taken and as we see in Iraq, it is very
> difficult to collect on resources. The Americans will not allow for
> a draft and the considerable resources needed for any effective
> occupation of anyone.
>
> I hope and belive that it will be new elections and Bush cannot stay
> on anyway. By then it will be a higher degree of awareness with the
> American people, that they are in deep sh-t. Hopefully a suitable
> leader will emerge. At the end I do have a strong belive in the American
> people and their basic goodness. We are maybe lucky, in the fact
> that US no longer have an adversarial to blame and hate.
>
> Hakan

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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Hakan Falk



Doug,

It will be hard times for US, but I do not belive on the nuclear option.
It is nothing that really can be taken and as we see in Iraq, it is very
difficult to collect on resources. The Americans will not allow for
a draft and the considerable resources needed for any effective
occupation of anyone.

I hope and belive that it will be new elections and Bush cannot stay
on anyway. By then it will be a higher degree of awareness with the
American people, that they are in deep sh-t. Hopefully a suitable
leader will emerge. At the end I do have a strong belive in the American
people and their basic goodness. We are maybe lucky, in the fact
that US no longer have an adversarial to blame and hate.

Hakan


At 08:59 17/08/2005, you wrote:

Hakan,
 I think the $ slide is well overdue: how else are we (as in the rest of the
world) to rein in the misuse of resources in the US?
 My only real fear is that the US will use all its nuclear weapons to take
what it needs to stay afloat...

regards Doug

On Wednesday 17 August 2005 7:32, Hakan Falk wrote:
> Tim,
>
> Please try to research the subject a bit more and you will find
> that apart of being quite unwilling to give foreign aid at others
> level, it is used for political ends and corporate profits.
>
> Regarding US financial situation, Clinton actually did a great
> job to create a fiscally sound foundation, to deal with the US
> deficits. That work is gone now and US has never been in a
> worse situation. If it were any other country in the world, it
> would be declared in bankruptcy and it is only able to continue,
> because the disastrous world wide implications of such a move.
>
> Since Bush is not doing anything about it and his best advisers
> left him due to the inaction, nobody knows where it will end. The
> heavy slide of the dollar is a result of inaction, not a thoughtful
> financial policy. It is actually so bad that responsible American
> economists do not want to debate, afraid of trigger a run on the
> US economy. They do not see that it already begun, with major
> countries unloading their dollars.
>
> Anyway, this is not fun to talk about and pointless, since nobody
> is going to do something about it yet.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 21:00 16/08/2005, you wrote:
> >Hakan,
> >
> >It really amounts to aid with no strings attached.  But even then there
> >must be measures put in place to ensure accountability such as progress
> >reports, inspections, etc.
> >
> >In an indirect way, when the US imports goods and services that
> >translates into foreign aid.  The US has a huge trade imbalance.  The US
> >also has considerable foreign direct investment in PP&E that has got to
> >help the local economy.  This may sound snippy but I suppose much of
> >this activity can be interpreted as exploitation.
> >
> >Tim Schlueter
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:40 PM
> >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
> >
> >
> >Tim,
> >
> >Nothing really, neither size or methods, but it
> >is a matter of using foreign aid as a part of
> >foreign policies and control. US is mixing their
> >foreign policy goals and corporate profits, with
> >the way to distribute foreign aid.
> >
> >1. US is selective and set the rules for their
> >foreign aid, as an instrument to enhance their
> >foreign policy goals. The countries I mentioned
> >refrain from mixing foreign policy goals and only look at the needs.
> >
> >2. US is demanding that the money is spent with
> >US companies and it is only if there are no US
> >suppliers available, that the money can be spent
> >somewhere else. This means that they short
> >circuit any true bidding process, with lowest
> >price and suitability as parameters. The
> >countries that I mentioned, allow for an
> >efficient purchasing process, with
> >price/performance as the only measurement. This
> >often means "more for the money".
> >
> >Sometimes and for unique needs, all the countries
> >will directly deliver produce as aid. The over
> >riding factor should always be what is best for
> >the recipient and not the convenience of the
> >donor or donor related corporations.




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country





Hi Doug and All,
 
The Atlantic Monthly had a great article (actually several) in it about how the dollar could slide 25% or more. Great cover, circa 1920, with a pair of legs in a business suit looking from the roof of a tall building as if ready to jump.
 
Tom Irwin
 
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-17 Thread Doug Foskey

Hakan,
 I think the $ slide is well overdue: how else are we (as in the rest of the 
world) to rein in the misuse of resources in the US?
 My only real fear is that the US will use all its nuclear weapons to take 
what it needs to stay afloat...

regards Doug

On Wednesday 17 August 2005 7:32, Hakan Falk wrote:
> Tim,
>
> Please try to research the subject a bit more and you will find
> that apart of being quite unwilling to give foreign aid at others
> level, it is used for political ends and corporate profits.
>
> Regarding US financial situation, Clinton actually did a great
> job to create a fiscally sound foundation, to deal with the US
> deficits. That work is gone now and US has never been in a
> worse situation. If it were any other country in the world, it
> would be declared in bankruptcy and it is only able to continue,
> because the disastrous world wide implications of such a move.
>
> Since Bush is not doing anything about it and his best advisers
> left him due to the inaction, nobody knows where it will end. The
> heavy slide of the dollar is a result of inaction, not a thoughtful
> financial policy. It is actually so bad that responsible American
> economists do not want to debate, afraid of trigger a run on the
> US economy. They do not see that it already begun, with major
> countries unloading their dollars.
>
> Anyway, this is not fun to talk about and pointless, since nobody
> is going to do something about it yet.
>
> Hakan
>
> At 21:00 16/08/2005, you wrote:
> >Hakan,
> >
> >It really amounts to aid with no strings attached.  But even then there
> >must be measures put in place to ensure accountability such as progress
> >reports, inspections, etc.
> >
> >In an indirect way, when the US imports goods and services that
> >translates into foreign aid.  The US has a huge trade imbalance.  The US
> >also has considerable foreign direct investment in PP&E that has got to
> >help the local economy.  This may sound snippy but I suppose much of
> >this activity can be interpreted as exploitation.
> >
> >Tim Schlueter
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:40 PM
> >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
> >
> >
> >Tim,
> >
> >Nothing really, neither size or methods, but it
> >is a matter of using foreign aid as a part of
> >foreign policies and control. US is mixing their
> >foreign policy goals and corporate profits, with
> >the way to distribute foreign aid.
> >
> >1. US is selective and set the rules for their
> >foreign aid, as an instrument to enhance their
> >foreign policy goals. The countries I mentioned
> >refrain from mixing foreign policy goals and only look at the needs.
> >
> >2. US is demanding that the money is spent with
> >US companies and it is only if there are no US
> >suppliers available, that the money can be spent
> >somewhere else. This means that they short
> >circuit any true bidding process, with lowest
> >price and suitability as parameters. The
> >countries that I mentioned, allow for an
> >efficient purchasing process, with
> >price/performance as the only measurement. This
> >often means "more for the money".
> >
> >Sometimes and for unique needs, all the countries
> >will directly deliver produce as aid. The over
> >riding factor should always be what is best for
> >the recipient and not the convenience of the
> >donor or donor related corporations.
>
> ___
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> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Kim,

Gracious me!  As they say the meek shall inherit the earth!  I believe
that you fit that bill.  How soothing and reflective are your words.
You must yearn for Canada.  I am curious as to what you are referring to
wrt "American attitudes?"  It doesn't sound very complimentary.  Not
that I'm offended though I am interested in your perspective.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:01 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings,

I moved to the US in my midthirties, so I did not grow up with American 
attitudes.  While Canadians do share many things with the US, we did not

share all of them.  I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for 
myself or to make things at home.  I am criticized in this manner about 
once a week, here in Texas.

Once upon a time, I thought I knew what was right in politics.  Now the 
only thing I do know, is that if you want to have an opinion, you had 
better do some serious homework.  Even then, somewhere down the road, 
something that was done by the leadership in the shadows will come to
light 
and make you wish you had never supported them.

I have no answers to such questions.  I do try to live lightly on Mother

Earth, to be accepting of others as long as they cause no harm to me and

mine, and to try to make the world a better place for all of us.  This
is 
enough of a challenge, for me.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Mike Weaver


Oh, man!  I just wasted $20.00!!

Keith Addison wrote:

Why are these cards banned on Ebay?  Perhaps it has to do with this 
statement from Ebay:


"Only copyright owners are permitted to sell items or products which 
are intended to be delivered to the buyer by electronic download 
through the Internet. Sellers who own the copyrights to this 
downloadable media being sold must state this fact in their listings 
and must be able to prove this ownership to eBay."


In other words, the reason for the ban may have to do with copyright 
legalities as opposed to some sort of governmentally imposed 
restriction, which the statement below leads one to believe.


Tim



:-) Believe the small print if you like.

Quite a regular item offered on eBay is this:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/z/woh1.jpg 



Taken directly from our site, the description also taken directly from 
our site, and offered as original plans for sale at $20 or something 
similar. It was JtF who resurrected these plans, but, as acknowledged, 
the copyright belongs to Mother Earth News, but there's zero 
acknowledgement of either JtF or MEN. Try telling eBay about it - I 
got exactly nowhere, and neither did several other people.


Please trim irrelevant previous material from your posts Tim, you're 
wasting tons of bandwidth. Thankyou.


Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner





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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Kim,

Bless you!  So many people are proud of their money regardless of how
they earned it.  However, would there be any validity to the statement
that your lifestyle would not be possible if not for the capitalistic,
corporate driven, free society in which we live?  If so, that would be a
horrible piece of irony.  I'm not being antagonistic.  I guess I'm just
"lost in America" with a couple hundred million others.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:39 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings Tim,

You are more than correct about many things.  Few and far between are
the 
honest humans, but there are a few.  Fortunately for me, you can't pay
me 
enough for me to work at anything that I can't be proud of.  I have
never 
been that fond of money.

I like my benefits better than any a corporation could give me.  Plenty
of 
fresh air, sunshine, super healthy food, loving animals, no chemicals in
my 
environment.  No smokers and I work at my own rate and time.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Keith,

You're saying Ebay picks and chooses which of its own rules to follow
and when?  Perhaps so but if that is the case, at least we know it is
Ebay doing the suppressing unless you think they are getting squeezed by
"someone."

Thanks for the advice to delete irrelevant material.

Tim Schlueter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:49 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

>Why are these cards banned on Ebay?  Perhaps it has to do with this 
>statement from Ebay:
>
>"Only copyright owners are permitted to sell items or products which 
>are intended to be delivered to the buyer by electronic download 
>through the Internet. Sellers who own the copyrights to this 
>downloadable media being sold must state this fact in their listings 
>and must be able to prove this ownership to eBay."
>
>In other words, the reason for the ban may have to do with copyright 
>legalities as opposed to some sort of governmentally imposed 
>restriction, which the statement below leads one to believe.
>
>Tim

:-) Believe the small print if you like.

Quite a regular item offered on eBay is this:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/z/woh1.j
pg

Taken directly from our site, the description also taken directly 
from our site, and offered as original plans for sale at $20 or 
something similar. It was JtF who resurrected these plans, but, as 
acknowledged, the copyright belongs to Mother Earth News, but there's 
zero acknowledgement of either JtF or MEN. Try telling eBay about it 
- I got exactly nowhere, and neither did several other people.

Please trim irrelevant previous material from your posts Tim, you're 
wasting tons of bandwidth. Thankyou.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 

>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:08 AM
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
>
>Hakan wrote:
>Wonder from which industries they are coming?
>
>Hakan, at the following website you can see their backgrounds
>by looking at each card in a card game that shows backgrounds
>of people working with the administration:
>
>http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/
>
>Each suit in the deck represents a category:
>   Oil, gas, and energy companies
>   US government officials
>   Military and defense contractors
>   Heads of industry, finance, media, policy, and hype
>
>Go here to select each category to find information on each
>person
>http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/cards/index.html
>
>The sale of the card game has been banned on ebay
>
>To see a little about Cheney's background with Halliburton see
>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/22/60minutes/printabl
>e595214.shtml
>Doing Business With The Enemy  Jan. 25, 2004
>
>Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and other neoconservatives were
>part of the Project for the New American Century plan to invade
>Iraq in 1997. They tried to get Clinton interested, but failed. They
>didn't fail with Bush. See their names on the statement of
>principles at:
>http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
>




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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country



Tim,

Please try to research the subject a bit more and you will find
that apart of being quite unwilling to give foreign aid at others
level, it is used for political ends and corporate profits.

Regarding US financial situation, Clinton actually did a great
job to create a fiscally sound foundation, to deal with the US
deficits. That work is gone now and US has never been in a
worse situation. If it were any other country in the world, it
would be declared in bankruptcy and it is only able to continue,
because the disastrous world wide implications of such a move.

Since Bush is not doing anything about it and his best advisers
left him due to the inaction, nobody knows where it will end. The
heavy slide of the dollar is a result of inaction, not a thoughtful
financial policy. It is actually so bad that responsible American
economists do not want to debate, afraid of trigger a run on the
US economy. They do not see that it already begun, with major
countries unloading their dollars.

Anyway, this is not fun to talk about and pointless, since nobody
is going to do something about it yet.

Hakan


At 21:00 16/08/2005, you wrote:

Hakan,

It really amounts to aid with no strings attached.  But even then there
must be measures put in place to ensure accountability such as progress
reports, inspections, etc.

In an indirect way, when the US imports goods and services that
translates into foreign aid.  The US has a huge trade imbalance.  The US
also has considerable foreign direct investment in PP&E that has got to
help the local economy.  This may sound snippy but I suppose much of
this activity can be interpreted as exploitation.

Tim Schlueter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:40 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Tim,

Nothing really, neither size or methods, but it
is a matter of using foreign aid as a part of
foreign policies and control. US is mixing their
foreign policy goals and corporate profits, with
the way to distribute foreign aid.

1. US is selective and set the rules for their
foreign aid, as an instrument to enhance their
foreign policy goals. The countries I mentioned
refrain from mixing foreign policy goals and only look at the needs.

2. US is demanding that the money is spent with
US companies and it is only if there are no US
suppliers available, that the money can be spent
somewhere else. This means that they short
circuit any true bidding process, with lowest
price and suitability as parameters. The
countries that I mentioned, allow for an
efficient purchasing process, with
price/performance as the only measurement. This
often means "more for the money".

Sometimes and for unique needs, all the countries
will directly deliver produce as aid. The over
riding factor should always be what is best for
the recipient and not the convenience of the
donor or donor related corporations.




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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Michael Redler









"I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for myself or to make things at home.  I am criticized in this manner about once a week, here in Texas."
 
OK you have my attention.
 
ANY American who tells you that making something at home is un-American hasn't the foggiest notion of this country's history and culture. Ingenuity and individuality have contributed greatly to the American way of life, for better or worse.
 
If anyone you know has any doubt about this, tell them to do their your own research and find out how many people in this country are amateur inventors and basement tinkerers. This didn't just start yesterday. As a new Englander, I admired so called "Yankee Ingenuity" and the folklorish status that it developed throughout the post industrial revolution. Some can argue that this kind of activity goes farther back than that - applying extraordinary ingenuity during the revolutionary war with the development and manufacturing processes used to produce the Kentucky long rifle and other technologies of it's day. Many of the framers of the constitution were tinkerers in their own right. Ask him/her if BENJAMIN FRANKLIN sounds like a familiar name.
 
MikeGarth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greetings,I moved to the US in my midthirties, so I did not grow up with American attitudes. While Canadians do share many things with the US, we did not share all of them. I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for myself or to make things at home. I am criticized in this manner about once a week, here in Texas.Once upon a time, I thought I knew what was right in politics. Now the only thing I do know, is that if you want to have an opinion, you had better do some serious homework. Even then, somewhere down the road, something that was done by the leadership in the shadows will come to light and make you wish you had never supported them.I have no answers to such questions. I do try to live lightly on Mother Earth, to be accepting of others as long as they cause no harm to me and mine, and to try to make the
 world a better place for all of us. This is enough of a challenge, for me.Bright Blessings,KimAt 01:01 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:>Kim,>>Bless you! So many people are proud of their money regardless of how>they earned it. However, would there be any validity to the statement>that your lifestyle would not be possible if not for the capitalistic,>corporate driven, free society in which we live? If so, that would be a>horrible piece of irony. I'm not being antagonistic. I guess I'm just>"lost in America" with a couple hundred million others.>>Tim>>-Original Message->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim>Travis>Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:39 AM>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue
 States/Country>>Greetings Tim,>>You are more than correct about many things. Few and far between are>the>honest humans, but there are a few. Fortunately for me, you can't pay>me>enough for me to work at anything that I can't be proud of. I have>never>been that fond of money.>>I like my benefits better than any a corporation could give me. Plenty>of>fresh air, sunshine, super healthy food, loving animals, no chemicals in>my>environment. No smokers and I work at my own rate and time.>>Bright Blessings,>Kim>>>___>Biofuel mailing list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel
 and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Garth & Kim Travis


Greetings,

I moved to the US in my midthirties, so I did not grow up with American 
attitudes.  While Canadians do share many things with the US, we did not 
share all of them.  I was never told that it was un-Canadian to do for 
myself or to make things at home.  I am criticized in this manner about 
once a week, here in Texas.


Once upon a time, I thought I knew what was right in politics.  Now the 
only thing I do know, is that if you want to have an opinion, you had 
better do some serious homework.  Even then, somewhere down the road, 
something that was done by the leadership in the shadows will come to light 
and make you wish you had never supported them.


I have no answers to such questions.  I do try to live lightly on Mother 
Earth, to be accepting of others as long as they cause no harm to me and 
mine, and to try to make the world a better place for all of us.  This is 
enough of a challenge, for me.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 01:01 PM 8/16/2005, you wrote:

Kim,

Bless you!  So many people are proud of their money regardless of how
they earned it.  However, would there be any validity to the statement
that your lifestyle would not be possible if not for the capitalistic,
corporate driven, free society in which we live?  If so, that would be a
horrible piece of irony.  I'm not being antagonistic.  I guess I'm just
"lost in America" with a couple hundred million others.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:39 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings Tim,

You are more than correct about many things.  Few and far between are
the
honest humans, but there are a few.  Fortunately for me, you can't pay
me
enough for me to work at anything that I can't be proud of.  I have
never
been that fond of money.

I like my benefits better than any a corporation could give me.  Plenty
of
fresh air, sunshine, super healthy food, loving animals, no chemicals in
my
environment.  No smokers and I work at my own rate and time.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Hakan,

It really amounts to aid with no strings attached.  But even then there
must be measures put in place to ensure accountability such as progress
reports, inspections, etc.

In an indirect way, when the US imports goods and services that
translates into foreign aid.  The US has a huge trade imbalance.  The US
also has considerable foreign direct investment in PP&E that has got to
help the local economy.  This may sound snippy but I suppose much of
this activity can be interpreted as exploitation.

Tim Schlueter

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:40 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Tim,

Nothing really, neither size or methods, but it 
is a matter of using foreign aid as a part of 
foreign policies and control. US is mixing their 
foreign policy goals and corporate profits, with 
the way to distribute foreign aid.

1. US is selective and set the rules for their 
foreign aid, as an instrument to enhance their 
foreign policy goals. The countries I mentioned 
refrain from mixing foreign policy goals and only look at the needs.

2. US is demanding that the money is spent with 
US companies and it is only if there are no US 
suppliers available, that the money can be spent 
somewhere else. This means that they short 
circuit any true bidding process, with lowest 
price and suitability as parameters. The 
countries that I mentioned, allow for an 
efficient purchasing process, with 
price/performance as the only measurement. This 
often means "more for the money".

Sometimes and for unique needs, all the countries 
will directly deliver produce as aid. The over 
riding factor should always be what is best for 
the recipient and not the convenience of the 
donor or donor related corporations.

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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Tim,

Nothing really, neither size or methods, but it 
is a matter of using foreign aid as a part of 
foreign policies and control. US is mixing their 
foreign policy goals and corporate profits, with 
the way to distribute foreign aid.

1. US is selective and set the rules for their 
foreign aid, as an instrument to enhance their 
foreign policy goals. The countries I mentioned 
refrain from mixing foreign policy goals and only look at the needs.

2. US is demanding that the money is spent with 
US companies and it is only if there are no US 
suppliers available, that the money can be spent 
somewhere else. This means that they short 
circuit any true bidding process, with lowest 
price and suitability as parameters. The 
countries that I mentioned, allow for an 
efficient purchasing process, with 
price/performance as the only measurement. This 
often means "more for the money".

Sometimes and for unique needs, all the countries 
will directly deliver produce as aid. The over 
riding factor should always be what is best for 
the recipient and not the convenience of the 
donor or donor related corporations.

These are also the reasons why the Iraqi "oil for 
food" scandal could develop. This is typical 
example on how an US led initiative often is 
corrupted and how US deserves their reputation . 
The elements are very recognizable. First the 
motive, which were more designed to satisfy the 
US/world need for oil deliveries than feeding the 
Iraqi people. If Iraq would not have been allowed 
to export oil, the rising prices that we see 
today would have come earlier. It was just not 
possible to redraw the Iraqi oil export from the 
market place and we can see the consequences of 
doing that today. US had to look for a way to 
force Iraq to deliver their production to them in 
a "controlled manner". Who were the players?

1. The Iraqi oil ministry and government.
2. US officials.
3. UN officials
4. US oil companies
5. Mostly US suppliers of food and essentials, 
very little from other countries

It was a seemingly genius plan to make an 
absolute necessity, the oil deliveries, to a 
virtue. To be able to get it through, the 
Americans needed support from other countries and 
to some measures the Iraqi oil ministry. This was 
achieved by letting the oil companies from UK, 
France, Germany and Spain in to a part of the 
spoils. UN, Saddam and the Iraqi oil ministry was 
dealt with by kick backs. The whole "food for 
oil" program was a master piece of a corruption scheme designed and led by US.

Hakan

At 16:02 16/08/2005, you wrote:

Hakan,

What prevents the US from delivering foreign aid 
in a manner similar to the ways of your below listed Countries?

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk

Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:04 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Tim,

At 00:02 16/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hakan,
>
>What would you consider to be one example of a
>successful country that delivers foreign aid from which the US could learn?

All the Scandinavian countries, UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Switzerland etc.

>I would not expect a country to obey our laws in
>their own country.  That is not what I meant.  I
>apologize for that.  I'm referring to legal
>activities/products a country exports to
>somewhere it is not legal.  I'm thinking along
>the lines of pharmaceuticals or pesticides.  Are
>you aware of any countries that export to US
>what is illegal for them to produce/consume but is OK in the US?

It is customary for US Corporations to take
advantage and pressure developing countries to
accept security measures, environmental and labor
laws, far lesser than the US ones. The most
famous one is the production in Bophal, India and
the 15,000++ dead and numerous follow on effects
and victims. The Corporation even broke the more
laxed rules in India and US refused to extradite
the responsible CEO to stand trial.

>I understand you to say it is customary in the
>US to take advantage of foreign technical
>solutions as long as they are not registered in the US?

If it has not dramatically changed the last 15
years, yes. Until then, I was active and worked
with US companies. I have not heard that US
started to recognize other countries patent
registrations and US corporations have played
quite a few dirty tricks that I now about. Taking
advantage of foreign research and even
deliberately bypassing and developing around foreign patents.

US might complain about China, but Europe did in
the past complain about US and/or Japan. This is
of course not that newsworthy in US, as their
complaints about China who is on a path that recognized both in US and Japan.

Hakan

>Tim
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan

RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Keith Addison

Why are these cards banned on Ebay?  Perhaps it has to do with this 
statement from Ebay:


"Only copyright owners are permitted to sell items or products which 
are intended to be delivered to the buyer by electronic download 
through the Internet. Sellers who own the copyrights to this 
downloadable media being sold must state this fact in their listings 
and must be able to prove this ownership to eBay."


In other words, the reason for the ban may have to do with copyright 
legalities as opposed to some sort of governmentally imposed 
restriction, which the statement below leads one to believe.


Tim


:-) Believe the small print if you like.

Quite a regular item offered on eBay is this:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/z/woh1.jpg

Taken directly from our site, the description also taken directly 
from our site, and offered as original plans for sale at $20 or 
something similar. It was JtF who resurrected these plans, but, as 
acknowledged, the copyright belongs to Mother Earth News, but there's 
zero acknowledgement of either JtF or MEN. Try telling eBay about it 
- I got exactly nowhere, and neither did several other people.


Please trim irrelevant previous material from your posts Tim, you're 
wasting tons of bandwidth. Thankyou.


Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:08 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Hakan wrote:
Wonder from which industries they are coming?

Hakan, at the following website you can see their backgrounds
by looking at each card in a card game that shows backgrounds
of people working with the administration:

http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/

Each suit in the deck represents a category:
Oil, gas, and energy companies
US government officials
Military and defense contractors
Heads of industry, finance, media, policy, and hype

Go here to select each category to find information on each
person
http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/cards/index.html

The sale of the card game has been banned on ebay

To see a little about Cheney's background with Halliburton see
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/22/60minutes/printabl
e595214.shtml
Doing Business With The Enemy   Jan. 25, 2004

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and other neoconservatives were
part of the Project for the New American Century plan to invade
Iraq in 1997. They tried to get Clinton interested, but failed. They
didn't fail with Bush. See their names on the statement of
principles at:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm






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Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Garth & Kim Travis

Greetings Tim,

You are more than correct about many things.  Few and far between are the 
honest humans, but there are a few.  Fortunately for me, you can't pay me 
enough for me to work at anything that I can't be proud of.  I have never 
been that fond of money.

I like my benefits better than any a corporation could give me.  Plenty of 
fresh air, sunshine, super healthy food, loving animals, no chemicals in my 
environment.  No smokers and I work at my own rate and time.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 09:28 AM 8/16/2005, you wrote:

Kim,

No question about the lying taking place in corporations.  However, a
person tends to take that statement as though it only takes place at the
"employer" level.  Employees lie to the same degree.  How many people do
we all know who "milk" worker comp claims?  Or take jobs that pay under
the table so as to protect their unemployment benefits?  What about
stealing company property either in material or unproductive time?  Then
you have people who complain about unsafe working conditions only to hop
on a crotch rocket, drink and drive, smoke, load their kids in the bed
of their pickup, etc.  I'm not protecting the corporation at all.  At
the same time, if more people had the constitution "take that job and
shove it" and self-employ, the "corporation" would have to sit up and
listen.  The problem is the pay and benefits are too good.

Tim Schlueter(20 year accountant for the "corporation")

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:10 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings Hakan,

Lying in corporations is standard practice in North America.  The normal

lie that is real common is: 'Anyone can shut down a job for safety
reasons.'  I have heard this in many corporations in Canada and the US,
but
I have also seen what happens when someone tries to shut down a job for
safety reasons.  Either they are ignored and the job continues in an
unsafe
manor or the person very quickly finds themselves in the unemployment
line.

Corporate image and the image of being a good corporate citizen is what
the
companies care about, the reality does not have to live up to it, if
they
have spent enough money publicizing their corporate image.

Start work at 16 and by the time you are 20, you have this figured
out.  The challenge is to figure out which part of the companies spin,
they
actually care about.  Then you know which sacred cow not to damage.  Me,
I
couldn't stand it, so I have been self employed most of my life.

Not all corporations are like this, and the smaller the company, the
less
likely this is.  But one does not go into politics as a rule from small
business.

The oil industry is especially ripe with type of behavior.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:36 AM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
>If they come from Corporations, hmmm, I do not like to be sued for
telling
>my honest opinion or my experiences from US corporate leaders. It does
>however explain the deep rooted habit of lying to the people. Wonder
from
>which industries they are coming?
>
>Hakan

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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Why are these cards banned on Ebay?  Perhaps it has to do with this statement 
from Ebay:

"Only copyright owners are permitted to sell items or products which are 
intended to be delivered to the buyer by electronic download through the 
Internet. Sellers who own the copyrights to this downloadable media being sold 
must state this fact in their listings and must be able to prove this ownership 
to eBay."

In other words, the reason for the ban may have to do with copyright legalities 
as opposed to some sort of governmentally imposed restriction, which the 
statement below leads one to believe.

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 10:08 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Hakan wrote:
Wonder from which industries they are coming?

Hakan, at the following website you can see their backgrounds 
by looking at each card in a card game that shows backgrounds 
of people working with the administration:

http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/

Each suit in the deck represents a category: 
Oil, gas, and energy companies
US government officials
Military and defense contractors
Heads of industry, finance, media, policy, and hype

Go here to select each category to find information on each 
person
http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/cards/index.html

The sale of the card game has been banned on ebay

To see a little about Cheney's background with Halliburton see
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/22/60minutes/printabl
e595214.shtml
Doing Business With The Enemy   Jan. 25, 2004

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and other neoconservatives were 
part of the Project for the New American Century plan to invade 
Iraq in 1997. They tried to get Clinton interested, but failed. They 
didn't fail with Bush. See their names on the statement of 
principles at:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:

Tom,

I had no idea that Bush jr had been shot at and 
seen friends die for America. Nobody told me that 
Rumsfelt had an extinguish military career, but 
it is possible. Powell, that I like a lot, I know 
was a military, but it looked like he had trouble 
with his colleagues, maybe he is the one who 
provided for the shooting at Bush? This girl who 
got Powell's job, looks like a military, but I 
thought that she was a university professor. You 
have to excuse us foreigners who know so little about US 
leaders.

Then the view about fuel economy is 
understandable, anything with little less mpg 
than a Hummer, must be a wonder of efficiency. 
Anything with better insulation than a tent, must 
look as the technology that would save us from 
Global Warming. Considering the living 
conditioning in military tents, must also make it 
difficult to belive in the concept of Global Warming.

If they come from Corporations, hmmm, I do not 
like to be sued for telling my honest opinion or 
my experiences from US corporate leaders. It does 
however explain the deep rooted habit of lying to 
the people. Wonder from which industries they are coming?

Hakan

At 11:20 16/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hi Hakan,
>
>We get those wonderful leaders from corporations 
>and the military. The ones in the military are 
>actually the pacifists since they´re actually 
>been shot at and seen friends die for America Inc.
>
>Tom
>
>
>--
>From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:04:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for your concerns about me.
>
>Yes you are right, there are many who has the capacity to 
compensate
>lack of direct experience, with education and enough 
imagination.
>There are many good places in the world, as I said, and we 
"only"
>have to work hard on making more of them. To belive that this 
in any
>way can be done with the help of weapons, is utterly stupid. It is
>nothing that will be more destructive and more hated, than
>"liberators" that has killed members of your family and/or your
>friends. As I now live in Spain and married with a Catalan 
women, I
>often see that the effects of the 1936 to 1939 civil war still are
>lingering. I heard about it before, but did not think that it would
>be so real for so many, who's parents were not even born at 
that time.
>
>To belive that US will get out of Iraq, without being deeply hated
>the next 50-100 years, is not only ignorant, but also utterly 
stupid.
>After all they have personally killed around 300,000 Iraqis and 
was
>behind the Iraq - Iran war, with around an other million dead.
>History will not be kind to US, the Americans and Preside

RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Kim,

No question about the lying taking place in corporations.  However, a
person tends to take that statement as though it only takes place at the
"employer" level.  Employees lie to the same degree.  How many people do
we all know who "milk" worker comp claims?  Or take jobs that pay under
the table so as to protect their unemployment benefits?  What about
stealing company property either in material or unproductive time?  Then
you have people who complain about unsafe working conditions only to hop
on a crotch rocket, drink and drive, smoke, load their kids in the bed
of their pickup, etc.  I'm not protecting the corporation at all.  At
the same time, if more people had the constitution "take that job and
shove it" and self-employ, the "corporation" would have to sit up and
listen.  The problem is the pay and benefits are too good.

Tim Schlueter(20 year accountant for the "corporation")

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim
Travis
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:10 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Greetings Hakan,

Lying in corporations is standard practice in North America.  The normal

lie that is real common is: 'Anyone can shut down a job for safety 
reasons.'  I have heard this in many corporations in Canada and the US,
but 
I have also seen what happens when someone tries to shut down a job for 
safety reasons.  Either they are ignored and the job continues in an
unsafe 
manor or the person very quickly finds themselves in the unemployment
line.

Corporate image and the image of being a good corporate citizen is what
the 
companies care about, the reality does not have to live up to it, if
they 
have spent enough money publicizing their corporate image.

Start work at 16 and by the time you are 20, you have this figured 
out.  The challenge is to figure out which part of the companies spin,
they 
actually care about.  Then you know which sacred cow not to damage.  Me,
I 
couldn't stand it, so I have been self employed most of my life.

Not all corporations are like this, and the smaller the company, the
less 
likely this is.  But one does not go into politics as a rule from small 
business.

The oil industry is especially ripe with type of behavior.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:36 AM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
>If they come from Corporations, hmmm, I do not like to be sued for
telling 
>my honest opinion or my experiences from US corporate leaders. It does 
>however explain the deep rooted habit of lying to the people. Wonder
from 
>which industries they are coming?
>
>Hakan

___
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messages):
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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Hakan,

What prevents the US from delivering foreign aid in a manner similar to the 
ways of your below listed Countries?

Tim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:04 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Tim,

At 00:02 16/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hakan,
>
>What would you consider to be one example of a 
>successful country that delivers foreign aid from which the US could learn?

All the Scandinavian countries, UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Switzerland etc.


>I would not expect a country to obey our laws in 
>their own country.  That is not what I meant.  I 
>apologize for that.  I'm referring to legal 
>activities/products a country exports to 
>somewhere it is not legal.  I'm thinking along 
>the lines of pharmaceuticals or pesticides.  Are 
>you aware of any countries that export to US 
>what is illegal for them to produce/consume but is OK in the US?

It is customary for US Corporations to take 
advantage and pressure developing countries to 
accept security measures, environmental and labor 
laws, far lesser than the US ones. The most 
famous one is the production in Bophal, India and 
the 15,000++ dead and numerous follow on effects 
and victims. The Corporation even broke the more 
laxed rules in India and US refused to extradite 
the responsible CEO to stand trial.


>I understand you to say it is customary in the 
>US to take advantage of foreign technical 
>solutions as long as they are not registered in the US?

If it has not dramatically changed the last 15 
years, yes. Until then, I was active and worked 
with US companies. I have not heard that US 
started to recognize other countries patent 
registrations and US corporations have played 
quite a few dirty tricks that I now about. Taking 
advantage of foreign research and even 
deliberately bypassing and developing around foreign patents.

US might complain about China, but Europe did in 
the past complain about US and/or Japan. This is 
of course not that newsworthy in US, as their 
complaints about China who is on a path that recognized both in US and Japan.

Hakan


>Tim
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hakan Falk
>Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 4:28 PM
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
>
>
>Tim,
>
>I will clarify and repeat.
>
>At 15:57 15/08/2005, you wrote:
> >Hakan,
> >
> >What you are saying then is "foreign aid" does
> >not necessarily fit the definition of foreign
> >entanglement?  Further, even if it did, that type of entanglement is OK?
>
>Complicated matter for US, but there are more
>successful countries, look at them.
>
>
> >You are right about the demand side of illicit
> >drugs.  I was referring to the supply
> >side.  Another Country just simply cannot supply
> >drugs regardless of demand or legalities.  That spells trouble.
>
>No country supply the drugs, there are criminals
>in the countries that do it. US have a high
>degree of cooperation on those issues, on matters
>that are illegal both in US and the other country.
>
>
> >Are you saying that if a foreign country doesn't
> >agree with our laws, they are not obligated to
> >cooperate with us, unless there is something in it for them?
>
>Exactly, US cannot expect that an other country
>should police unique US laws on their soil. This
>is so basic that it should be easy to understand.
>That is why I took the legal age for sex as
>example. Sweden who has an age limit of 15 years
>for agreed sex, cannot be expected to police the
>21 year limit in US. That means that they cannot
>arrest and extradite someone who had sex with a
>17 year in US, since it is not recognized as a crime in Sweden.
>
>Many countries who do not have death penalty,
>cannot extradite a killer to US, if US does not
>guarantee that the death penalty will not be applied.
>
>
> >I was referring to a broader definition of
> >counterfeiting than just currency such as that
> >pertaining to intellectual property.  For
> >instance, I read and hear much about Chinese
> >illegal copying of software, music, movies, clothing, etc.
>
>Intellectual properties are complicated and even
>the Chinese will take action for things, within
>their laws. They do pursue software coping for
>export and maybe you will not agree, but they can
>even apply death penalty for cases that they
>unravel. Many brand products are manufactured in
>China and it is in many cases stolen legal production that are sold in China.
>
>US demands are in many cases mor

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread marilyn

Hakan wrote:
Wonder from which industries they are coming?

Hakan, at the following website you can see their backgrounds 
by looking at each card in a card game that shows backgrounds 
of people working with the administration:

http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/

Each suit in the deck represents a category: 
Oil, gas, and energy companies
US government officials
Military and defense contractors
Heads of industry, finance, media, policy, and hype

Go here to select each category to find information on each 
person
http://www.ruckus.org/warprofiteers/cards/index.html

The sale of the card game has been banned on ebay

To see a little about Cheney's background with Halliburton see
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/22/60minutes/printabl
e595214.shtml
Doing Business With The Enemy   Jan. 25, 2004

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and other neoconservatives were 
part of the Project for the New American Century plan to invade 
Iraq in 1997. They tried to get Clinton interested, but failed. They 
didn't fail with Bush. See their names on the statement of 
principles at:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:

Tom,

I had no idea that Bush jr had been shot at and 
seen friends die for America. Nobody told me that 
Rumsfelt had an extinguish military career, but 
it is possible. Powell, that I like a lot, I know 
was a military, but it looked like he had trouble 
with his colleagues, maybe he is the one who 
provided for the shooting at Bush? This girl who 
got Powell's job, looks like a military, but I 
thought that she was a university professor. You 
have to excuse us foreigners who know so little about US 
leaders.

Then the view about fuel economy is 
understandable, anything with little less mpg 
than a Hummer, must be a wonder of efficiency. 
Anything with better insulation than a tent, must 
look as the technology that would save us from 
Global Warming. Considering the living 
conditioning in military tents, must also make it 
difficult to belive in the concept of Global Warming.

If they come from Corporations, hmmm, I do not 
like to be sued for telling my honest opinion or 
my experiences from US corporate leaders. It does 
however explain the deep rooted habit of lying to 
the people. Wonder from which industries they are coming?

Hakan

At 11:20 16/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hi Hakan,
>
>We get those wonderful leaders from corporations 
>and the military. The ones in the military are 
>actually the pacifists since they´re actually 
>been shot at and seen friends die for America Inc.
>
>Tom
>
>
>--
>From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:04:07 -0300
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
>
>
>Bob,
>
>Thanks for your concerns about me.
>
>Yes you are right, there are many who has the capacity to 
compensate
>lack of direct experience, with education and enough 
imagination.
>There are many good places in the world, as I said, and we 
"only"
>have to work hard on making more of them. To belive that this 
in any
>way can be done with the help of weapons, is utterly stupid. It is
>nothing that will be more destructive and more hated, than
>"liberators" that has killed members of your family and/or your
>friends. As I now live in Spain and married with a Catalan 
women, I
>often see that the effects of the 1936 to 1939 civil war still are
>lingering. I heard about it before, but did not think that it would
>be so real for so many, who's parents were not even born at 
that time.
>
>To belive that US will get out of Iraq, without being deeply hated
>the next 50-100 years, is not only ignorant, but also utterly 
stupid.
>After all they have personally killed around 300,000 Iraqis and 
was
>behind the Iraq - Iran war, with around an other million dead.
>History will not be kind to US, the Americans and President 
Bush.
>Where do the Americans get those unreal and sick leaders 
from,
>including guys like Rumsfelt? It is amazing!!
>
>Hakan
>
>At 03:27 16/08/2005, you wrote:
> >Hakan,
> >Well said, and most appropriate. But may I respectfully note 
that
> >like all generalizations, there are many exceptions to the 
general
> >rule (that lack of international experience leads to a closed 
mind).
> >Example: Although I, along with many of my friends, have zero
> >international living experience (except through reading and 
the
> >media), and although we do enjoy living in the US with all its
> >faults (of which we are painfully aware), there are many other
> >countries I think we would enjoy living in - Sweden might be 
such
> >an enjoyable place, for instance. Far from finding Sw

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Garth & Kim Travis


Greetings Hakan,

Lying in corporations is standard practice in North America.  The normal 
lie that is real common is: 'Anyone can shut down a job for safety 
reasons.'  I have heard this in many corporations in Canada and the US, but 
I have also seen what happens when someone tries to shut down a job for 
safety reasons.  Either they are ignored and the job continues in an unsafe 
manor or the person very quickly finds themselves in the unemployment line.


Corporate image and the image of being a good corporate citizen is what the 
companies care about, the reality does not have to live up to it, if they 
have spent enough money publicizing their corporate image.


Start work at 16 and by the time you are 20, you have this figured 
out.  The challenge is to figure out which part of the companies spin, they 
actually care about.  Then you know which sacred cow not to damage.  Me, I 
couldn't stand it, so I have been self employed most of my life.


Not all corporations are like this, and the smaller the company, the less 
likely this is.  But one does not go into politics as a rule from small 
business.


The oil industry is especially ripe with type of behavior.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:36 AM 8/16/2005, you wrote:
If they come from Corporations, hmmm, I do not like to be sued for telling 
my honest opinion or my experiences from US corporate leaders. It does 
however explain the deep rooted habit of lying to the people. Wonder from 
which industries they are coming?


Hakan




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Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Tom Irwin





Hi Hakan,
 
You are talking about the chicken hawks. Bush II had poppy get him out of any possible trip to Viet Nam. Rummy never went to my knowledge and Mr VP got his wife knocked up to extend his deferment. Powell served and was shot at. He's seen first hand what war is all about and of course is no longer in the administration. I can't tell you much about Condi except she used to work for Chevron. They named a tanker after her. Most of the present administration is tied to big oil or big energy either directly of indirectly. It wouldn't surprise me if $100,000 or so goes into somebody's bank account each time one of our soldiers gets killed or maimed. You can be sure that account does not belong to the poor soldiers family.
 
Tom


From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 09:36:27 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/CountryTom,I had no idea that Bush jr had been shot at and seen friends die for America. Nobody told me that Rumsfelt had an extinguish military career, but it is possible. Powell, that I like a lot, I know was a military, but it looked like he had trouble with his colleagues, maybe he is the one who provided for the shooting at Bush? This girl who got Powell's job, looks like a military, but I thought that she was a university professor. You have to excuse us foreigners who know so little about US leaders.Then the view about fuel economy is understandable, anything with little less mpg than a Hummer, must be a wonder of efficiency. Anything with better insulation than a tent, must look as the technology that would save us from Global Warming. Considering the living conditioning in military tents, must also make it difficult to belive in the concept of Global Warming.If they come from Corporations, hmmm, I do not like to be sued for telling my honest opinion or my experiences from US corporate leaders. It does however explain the deep rooted habit of lying to the people. Wonder from which industries they are coming?HakanAt 11:20 16/08/2005, you wrote:>Hi Hakan,>>We get those wonderful leaders from corporations >and the military. The ones in the military are >actually the pacifists since they´re actually >been shot at and seen friends die for America Inc.>>Tom>>>-->From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Sent: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:04:07 -0300>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country>>>Bob,>>Thanks for your concerns about me.>>Yes you are right, there are many who has the capacity to compensate>lack of direct experience, with education and enough imagination.>There are many good places in the world, as I said, and we "only">have to work hard on making more of them. To belive that this in any>way can be done with the help of weapons, is utterly stupid. It is>nothing that will be more destructive and more hated, than>"liberators" that has killed members of your family and/or your>friends. As I now live in Spain and married with a Catalan women, I>often see that the effects of the 1936 to 1939 civil war still are>lingering. I heard about it before, but did not think that it would>be so real for so many, who's parents were not even born at that time.>>To belive that US will get out of Iraq, without being deeply hated>the next 50-100 years, is not only ignorant, but also utterly stupid.>After all they have personally killed around 300,000 Iraqis and was>behind the Iraq - Iran war, with around an other million dead.>History will not be kind to US, the Americans and President Bush.>Where do the Americans get those unreal and sick leaders from,>including guys like Rumsfelt? It is amazing!!>>Hakan>>At 03:27 16/08/2005, you wrote:> >Hakan,> >Well said, and most appropriate. But may I respectfully note that> >like all generalizations, there are many exceptions to the general> >rule (that lack of international experience leads to a closed mind).> >Example: Although I, along with many of my friends, have zero> >international living experience (except through reading and the> >media), and although we do enjoy living in the US with all its> >faults (of which we are painfully aware), there are many other> >countries I think we would enjoy living in - Sweden might be such> >an enjoyable place, for instance. Far from finding Sweden's> >socialist form of government abhorrent, there are many of us who> >would like to see more of it in the US. There's a world of> >difference between chauvinism and patriotism> >> >I do read and enjoy your perceptive and sensitive writings, and I do> >want to tell you how sorry I was to learn of your experience with> >the criminal elements. May this be your last cont

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Tom,

I had no idea that Bush jr had been shot at and 
seen friends die for America. Nobody told me that 
Rumsfelt had an extinguish military career, but 
it is possible. Powell, that I like a lot, I know 
was a military, but it looked like he had trouble 
with his colleagues, maybe he is the one who 
provided for the shooting at Bush? This girl who 
got Powell's job, looks like a military, but I 
thought that she was a university professor. You 
have to excuse us foreigners who know so little about US leaders.

Then the view about fuel economy is 
understandable, anything with little less mpg 
than a Hummer, must be a wonder of efficiency. 
Anything with better insulation than a tent, must 
look as the technology that would save us from 
Global Warming. Considering the living 
conditioning in military tents, must also make it 
difficult to belive in the concept of Global Warming.

If they come from Corporations, hmmm, I do not 
like to be sued for telling my honest opinion or 
my experiences from US corporate leaders. It does 
however explain the deep rooted habit of lying to 
the people. Wonder from which industries they are coming?

Hakan

At 11:20 16/08/2005, you wrote:

Hi Hakan,

We get those wonderful leaders from corporations 
and the military. The ones in the military are 
actually the pacifists since they´re actually 
been shot at and seen friends die for America Inc.

Tom

--
From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:04:07 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

Bob,

Thanks for your concerns about me.

Yes you are right, there are many who has the capacity to compensate
lack of direct experience, with education and enough imagination.
There are many good places in the world, as I said, and we "only"
have to work hard on making more of them. To belive that this in any
way can be done with the help of weapons, is utterly stupid. It is
nothing that will be more destructive and more hated, than
"liberators" that has killed members of your family and/or your
friends. As I now live in Spain and married with a Catalan women, I
often see that the effects of the 1936 to 1939 civil war still are
lingering. I heard about it before, but did not think that it would
be so real for so many, who's parents were not even born at that time.

To belive that US will get out of Iraq, without being deeply hated
the next 50-100 years, is not only ignorant, but also utterly stupid.
After all they have personally killed around 300,000 Iraqis and was
behind the Iraq - Iran war, with around an other million dead.
History will not be kind to US, the Americans and President Bush.
Where do the Americans get those unreal and sick leaders from,
including guys like Rumsfelt? It is amazing!!

Hakan

At 03:27 16/08/2005, you wrote:
>Hakan,
>Well said, and most appropriate. But may I respectfully note that
>like all generalizations, there are many exceptions to the general
>rule (that lack of international experience leads to a closed mind).
>Example: Although I, along with many of my friends, have zero
>international living experience (except through reading and the
>media), and although we do enjoy living in the US with all its
>faults (of which we are painfully aware), there are many other
>countries I think we would enjoy living in - Sweden might be such
>an enjoyable place, for instance. Far from finding Sweden's
>socialist form of government abhorrent, there are many of us who
>would like to see more of it in the US. There's a world of
>difference between chauvinism and patriotism
>
>I do read and enjoy your perceptive and sensitive writings, and I do
>want to tell you how sorry I was to learn of your experience with
>the criminal elements. May this be your last contact with them.
>
>Regards,
>
>Bob Adams
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Hakan Falk"
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:00 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
>
>
>>
>>Earl,
>>
>>Why I asked?
>>
>>I am Swedish and have lived and worked in 8 countries including US,
>>worked in 25 and visited 60+ more. I found many things that I liked
>>and some things that I disliked in all of them. I can make myself
>>understood in 5 languages, not including the Danish and Norweigian
>>which are very close to Swedish.
>>
>>A big majority in all countries, are very proud of their country
>>and would not want to live anywhere else. The less international
>>experiences they have, the more staunch their opinions are. The
>>Americans do not want to live anywhere else and especially not in a
>>country like the "socialist" Sweden. The Swedes do not want to live
>>anywhere else and especially not the undemocratic US, where mone

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-16 Thread Tom Irwin





Hi Hakan,
 
We get those wonderful leaders from corporations and the military. The ones in the military are actually the pacifists since they´re actually been shot at and seen friends die for America Inc.
 
Tom


From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:04:07 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/CountryBob,Thanks for your concerns about me.Yes you are right, there are many who has the capacity to compensate lack of direct experience, with education and enough imagination. There are many good places in the world, as I said, and we "only" have to work hard on making more of them. To belive that this in any way can be done with the help of weapons, is utterly stupid. It is nothing that will be more destructive and more hated, than "liberators" that has killed members of your family and/or your friends. As I now live in Spain and married with a Catalan women, I often see that the effects of the 1936 to 1939 civil war still are lingering. I heard about it before, but did not think that it would be so real for so many, who's parents were not even born at that time.To belive that US will get out of Iraq, without being deeply hated the next 50-100 years, is not only ignorant, but also utterly stupid. After all they have personally killed around 300,000 Iraqis and was behind the Iraq - Iran war, with around an other million dead. History will not be kind to US, the Americans and President Bush. Where do the Americans get those unreal and sick leaders from, including guys like Rumsfelt? It is amazing!!HakanAt 03:27 16/08/2005, you wrote:>Hakan,>Well said, and most appropriate. But may I respectfully note that >like all generalizations, there are many exceptions to the general >rule (that lack of international experience leads to a closed mind). >Example: Although I, along with many of my friends, have zero >international living experience (except through reading and the >media), and although we do enjoy living in the US with all its >faults (of which we are painfully aware), there are many other >countries I think we would enjoy living in - Sweden might be such >an enjoyable place, for instance. Far from finding Sweden's >socialist form of government abhorrent, there are many of us who >would like to see more of it in the US. There's a world of >difference between chauvinism and patriotism>>I do read and enjoy your perceptive and sensitive writings, and I do >want to tell you how sorry I was to learn of your experience with >the criminal elements. May this be your last contact with them.>>Regards,>>Bob Adams>- Original Message ----- From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>To: >Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:00 PM>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country>>>>>>Earl,>>>>Why I asked?>>>>I am Swedish and have lived and worked in 8 countries including US, >>worked in 25 and visited 60+ more. I found many things that I liked >>and some things that I disliked in all of them. I can make myself >>understood in 5 languages, not including the Danish and Norweigian >>which are very close to Swedish.>>>>A big majority in all countries, are very proud of their country >>and would not want to live anywhere else. The less international >>experiences they have, the more staunch their opinions are. The >>Americans do not want to live anywhere else and especially not in a >>country like the "socialist" Sweden. The Swedes do not want to live >>anywhere else and especially not the undemocratic US, where money >>is the only power. Yet, I have never found any countries that has >>so much in common as US and Sweden, this even if Sweden have a >>higher general living standard, according to UN and US statistic. >>That is also why Americans who live in Sweden generally like it >>very much and the same for Swedes who live in US.>>>>What I want to get to, is that you should avoid to have those >>unqualified opinions about other countries. It is amazing how a >>little bit international experiences can make you more humble and >>appreciate that we are all people that basically like each other, >>once when we get the opportunity to meet. There are also many very >>good places to live, independent of what you think of their political label.>>>>Visited Vietnam last year and it was amazing how Americanized and >>unsafe the south still was, compared to the north. As a whole, it >>was a very positive experience and interesting to see the places >>that I for years followed in the news. They will develop fast and >>in a positive direction.>>>>Hakan>>>>>>At 17:16 13/08/2005, you wrote:&

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country