Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Mark Wagner
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 17:58:51 -0300 Fernando Trebien wrote: > I queried place=hamlet in Washington State using Overpass Turbo and > compared it with the current classification in OSM. Indeed, many such > places lie next to major highways, as is the pattern in other > countries (small communities

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Warin
On 21/02/19 07:38, Sergio Manzi wrote: One thing I'm quite sure, anyway, is that "unclassified" should mean just that: "/it doesn't fall in any other classification OR we don't know cr.p about it (we know there is a road there, but we don't know how it is)/". No. If you don't know any

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Greg Troxel
Sergio Manzi writes: > One thing I'm quite sure, anyway, is that "unclassified" should mean > just that: "/it doesn't fall in any other classification OR we don't > know cr.p about it (we know there is a road there, but we don't know > how it is)/". But it doesn't mean that in the UK. It means

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Andrew Errington
On Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 01:44 Colin Smale Lets be clear, the storage format can (and should) be decoupled from the > display format. What is stored in the database can easily (assuming it is > sufficiently standardised!!!) be translated for human consumption, and the > inverse can be done when

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Warin
OSM relies on the contributions of many people, most of them are not going to spend much time learn stuff - particular complicated stuff that they don't see in their day to day life. The complexity of things like the values of 'opening hours' mean it does not get used by many. OSM should

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Colin Smale
OSM is the underlying data, not any particular rendering thereof. The general public are therefore not our target audience; that is composed of data consumers, including renderers of course. AIUI the above represents how we react to complaints about the "standard rendering" on the website. Why

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Sergio Manzi
This is easy to answer: "We want to make the best map data set of the world" Sergio On 2019-02-20 23:11, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Is OSM supposed to be for a tight, dedicated group of expert mappers trying > to create the best, most accurate, technically-perfect map the World has ever

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 17:11, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Is OSM supposed to be for a tight, dedicated group of expert mappers trying > to create the best, most accurate, technically-perfect map the World has ever > seen; or is it for the use of John Doe & Jane Public using OSMAND & Maps Me >

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Allen
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 22:12, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > Is OSM supposed to be for a tight, dedicated group of expert mappers > trying to create the best, most accurate, technically-perfect map the World > has ever seen; or is it for the use of John Doe & Jane Public using OSMAND > & Maps Me

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 22:31, Paul Allen wrote: > On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:08, marc marc wrote: > >> Le 20.02.19 à 12:39, Colin Smale a écrit : >> > "T2H" could be enough. What's the minimum IQ required to understand >> > "T2H", "T30M" or "5D"? >> >> ask other mapper how to tag "2 hours" in

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 at 04:35, OSMDoudou < 19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote: > > I think any discussion of dates and times should start by asking if we > could apply ISO8601 to the problem at hand. For example the other thread > about start date variants. > > By the way, ISO

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Fernando Trebien
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:52 PM Mark Wagner wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:30:07 -0300 > Here in Washington State, there are two possible "non-fuzzy" > classification schemes: > > 1) By usage rules: Motorway/arterial/other. This isn't very > fine-grained, and doesn't give you a way to

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Sergio Manzi
Hello Mark, I'm not willing to criticize your contribution, at all, but your preamble, "/Here in Washington State .../", was food for thought about the fact that sometimes (/often?/) we are affected by cultural bias here: the definition of features like highways may differ a lot depending in

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 14:51, Mark Wagner wrote: > > Do you have any locally-defined highway system that approximately > > matches the idea of "a system of highways that generally connects > > place=hamlet"? > > That would be the state highway system: nearly every incorporated > community and

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Mark Wagner
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:30:07 -0300 Fernando Trebien wrote: > On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:52 AM Greg Troxel wrote: > > The real problem is that if unclassified is more important than > > residential, what to do with roads that do not merit unclassified > > but do not have primarily residential

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Tomas Straupis
2019-02-20, tr, 20:08 Florian Lohoff rašė: > From the original meaning unclassified was the lowest class road in > rural or off city limits. residential was the lowest class road within > city limits. (Assuming that city limits mean residential usage) unclassified "original" meaning was "for

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread OSMDoudou
> I think any discussion of dates and times should start by asking if we could > apply ISO8601 to the problem at hand. For example the other thread about > start date variants. By the way, ISO 8601 is already in use at places:

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Florian Lohoff
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 09:39:00AM -0300, Fernando Trebien wrote: > Applications expect each level of the street mesh to be as complete > and connected as possible. Some routing engines (especially older > engines and software running on embedded devices with low CPU/memory, > not the case of OSRM

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Peter Elderson
Exactly. From a routing point of view, if you encounter a residential road, little can be deducted with certaointy from that tag. E.g. live very near a residential road, where along the length are lots of houses, but these are shielded by ridges, bushes and separate cycleways so traffic is not

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Fernando Trebien
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 10:52 AM Greg Troxel wrote: > The real problem is that if unclassified is more important than > residential, what to do with roads that do not merit unclassified but do > not have primarily residential landuse? That's why I think classification should be done by primary

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Tomas Straupis
I would agree with those stating importance of road network hierarchy and connectivity (for both routing and cartography). Having unclassified as higher than residential but lower than tertiary helps a lot. Maybe google will translate this old post with some practical examples and some technical

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Sergio Manzi
Maybe not a such bad idea, after all, but probably unfeasible. Ever since technology has given us powerfull but potentially dangerous tools (/steam engine, cars, firearms, electricity, the radio, surgery, drugs, airplanes, etc, etc.../) society, conscious of the dangers associate to such

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Greg Troxel
The real problem is that if unclassified is more important than residential, what to do with roads that do not merit unclassified but do not have primarily residential landuse? As I see it, in the United States unclassified and residential are equally important. However, this is likely to be

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Colin Smale
On 2019-02-20 14:23, Paul Allen wrote: > On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:59, Sergio Manzi wrote: > >> Perfect! >> >> NIH syndrome [1] anybody? >> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here > > More like "Somebody has already invented the hammer so there's no need for > that new >

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 07:55, Paul Allen wrote: > You are living in an ideal world that does not exist. Go to the standard > carto. Use the query tool. > All the translation mechanisms you posit do not exist. Hey, wait a second. Most people around where I live wouldn't understand why smaller

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Allen
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:59, Sergio Manzi wrote: > Perfect! > > NIH syndrome [1] anybody? > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here > More like "Somebody has already invented the hammer so there's no need for that new screwdriver thing, just hammer the screws in." Fitness for

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Fernando Trebien
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 9:45 AM Paul Allen wrote: > On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:25, Peter Elderson wrote: >> Residential just means it has housing along the road. > That doesn't necessarily work the other way around. I'm glad you pointed that out. In all that has been said about highway

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Sergio Manzi
Perfect! NIH syndrome [1] anybody? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here On 2019-02-20 13:42, Colin Smale wrote: > Lets be clear, the storage format can (and should) be decoupled from the > display format. What is stored in the database can easily (assuming it is > sufficiently

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Allen
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:44, Colin Smale wrote: Even in this case, we should take the trouble to define the syntax for a > duration, in such a way that the definition is reusable and extensible. > Should it be 2.5 hours, or should it be 2 hours 30 minutes? Using only > fractional hours will be

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Paul Allen
On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 at 12:25, Peter Elderson wrote: > > Residential just means it has housing along the road. > That doesn't necessarily work the other way around. My part of the world has a lot of ribbon villages: a small number of houses (typically around 10)clustered along a road connecting

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Fernando Trebien
On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 8:08 AM Florian Lohoff wrote: > Why not? This enables a routing engine to assume different > characteristics of roads. To make a routing engine such as OSRM and GraphHopper change its default assumptions about a road type, please describe the road in further detail using

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Dave Swarthout
I think a major purpose of this discussion should focus on assigning the relative "importance" of highway=residential and highway=classified once and for all. If we can come to agreement on what is meant by the two tags, we can better formulate guidelines that ideally will end up in the Wiki

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Sergio Manzi
And so? I'm also quite sure that less than 1% of mappers will spontaneously encode opening_hours=* according to what we prescribe in the wiki [1], but nonethelss that's what we expect they should do. What's your point? Sergio [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours On

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Peter Elderson
It's a bit of a mess in Nederland as well - lots of small residential roads have once been imported as unclassified, under the assumption that unclassified means there is no official classification. Which was wrong because unclassified is in fact a classification. As a result, unclassified in OSM

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread marc marc
Le 20.02.19 à 12:39, Colin Smale a écrit : > "T2H" could be enough. What's the minimum IQ required to understand > "T2H", "T30M" or "5D"? ask other mapper how to tag "2 hours" in the iso form. I doubt that 1% 'll reply "T2H" without first reading the doc. it not only the IQ, it's also the use of

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Colin Smale
On 2019-02-20 12:10, marc marc wrote: > Le 20.02.19 à 11:40, Colin Smale a écrit : > >> so allergic to the idea of leveraging (how I hate that word...) existing >> standards > > I wonder if it will soon be necessary to do an IQ test to contribute > to osm. > if a app says "encode the duration

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread marc marc
Le 20.02.19 à 11:40, Colin Smale a écrit : > so allergic to the idea of leveraging (how I hate that word...) existing > standards I wonder if it will soon be necessary to do an IQ test to contribute to osm. if a app says "encode the duration in ISO_8601 format", I wonder if 1% of contributors

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Florian Lohoff
Hi Georg, On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 11:03:15AM +0100, Georg Feddern wrote: > Even the english wiki says: > "The tag highway > =unclassified is used for > minor public roads typically at the lowest level of the interconnecting grid > network." Yes -

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Dave Swarthout
While I agree with Georg's assessment in general, I want to point out that in Thailand I often do downgrade an unclassified highway when it enters a residential area because the differences between the two ways can be significant. You will be driving along on a nice, smooth, two-lane highway and

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Colin Smale
+10e99 To be honest I have never really understood why OSM seems so allergic to the idea of leveraging (how I hate that word...) existing standards. I can only guess that anything that smells of formal ontologies is thought to limit or restrict the creative freedom of mappers to invent new

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Georg Feddern
Am 20.02.2019 um 10:22 schrieb Florian Lohoff: So for me retagging residential to unclassified is broken under the assumption that unclassified is something "better" than residential. It is even more broken when there is residential usage in which case unclassified is inappropriate. While

Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

2019-02-20 Thread Eugene Podshivalov
ср, 20 февр. 2019 г. в 02:30, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>: > On 19/02/19 20:40, Eugene Podshivalov wrote: > > Canals and ditches are artificial channels carrying naturual water > > this suggests there is 'unnatural' water... > What does "unnatural" water mean to you? To me, "natural" means

Re: [Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Dave Swarthout
That is a most interesting question. Here in Thailand I interpret their differences, perhaps incorrectly, as residential meaning a way with houses on it, while an unclassified highway is one step below a tertiary and therefore one step above a residential. It does not have many houses

Re: [Tagging] units and notations for maxstay

2019-02-20 Thread Sergio Manzi
+1 this! On 2019-02-20 01:45, Andrew Errington wrote: > Already handled by ISO8601: > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Durations > > I think any discussion of dates and times should start by asking if we could > apply ISO8601 to the problem at hand. For example the other thread about

[Tagging] Clarification unclassified vs residential

2019-02-20 Thread Florian Lohoff
Hi, i found some changesets downgrading streets to unclassified. After some discussions the mapper were under the impression that unclassified is something higher priority than residential. From my long tagging practice in OSM unclassified and residential are identical in respect to priority.